Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Unexpected Seekers (with Tom Wharin)
33 Plays54 minutes ago
Your church might have the best outreach programmes and top-notch facilities, or maybe its struggling to survive on a dying high street in a small market town. Either way, God surprises us with unexpected seekers, especially during this 'odd cultural moment', coming on unconventional journeys to faith. How can we be ready to participate in what God is doing, wherever He's placed us? Simon and Gavin speak with "Two Pastors in a Pub" podcaster Tom Wharin, this time on PEP Talk.
Tom Wharin is the minister of Chipping Sodbury Baptist Church in South Gloucestershire. He participates in various Baptists Together ministerial recognition (recruitment and training) groups and is passionate about mentoring and discipleship (of ministers and of Christians in general). He goes mountain biking whenever the opportunity arises and is one of the pastors in the Two Pastors in a Pub podcast, with Matt Frost and Karen Simson. He is married to Jo and they have four young adult footballing kids.
Recommended
Transcript
Exploring Faith and Church
00:00:00
Speaker
Over the past few months, there have been a few big moments, and it's made me want to explore faith and church a bit more, something I've not really done before. Seeing as I know you, I thought it might be a good place to start by coming along to one of your services at the church, if that's okay.
Introduction to Persuasive Evangelism Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
Well, as the chirpy, whistling theme tune fades into the background, it's time for another pep talk. The Persuasive Evangelism Podcast from sola i'm gavin
Challenges of Rural Congregations
00:00:31
Speaker
at Solas. and this week we're turning to the challenge of sharing the gospel outside the major cities of the uk here where i am in scotland the free church's center for rural ministry reported that there are fewer christians per head in southwest scotland way outside the cities than anywhere else in the country and down south a church the report spoke of a fragility in many rural congregations so I'm joined today by my erudite and thoughtful co-host, Dr. Simon Wenham. Simon, are you a city boy, a suburbanite or a rural dweller?
00:01:00
Speaker
Well, it's it's nice of for you to call me erudite. I'm not sure about that. But um a kind of city. like I've always been brought up in us a smallest city. So I suppose I think of myself more as a city boy than a country person. But I absolutely love walking in the countryside, if that counts.
Tom Warren's Journey to Christianity
00:01:15
Speaker
does So to help us steer us through this topic today, our guest is Tom Warren, who's the pastor of Chipping Sodbury Baptist Church in Gloucestershire. Tom, welcome. How are you? Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
00:01:26
Speaker
And has Chipping Sodbury been home for you for a long time, or have you moved there and in later life? how How long have you been where you are at the moment? I've been here for for two years, and although we didn't live far away before that. we was in Wotton Under Edge before that, which is a similar kind of sized place about eight miles north of here. So I've been in South Gloucestershire for the last 20 years.
00:01:47
Speaker
So these are some small market towns in the Gloucestershire countryside. Did you become a Christian in that context or did you become a Christian somewhere else? No, no. I was born and bred in Kettering in Northamptonshire, home of Weetabix and birthplace of the Baptist Missionary Society. And and yeah, I came to faith through the work of a fuller Baptist church in in Kettering when I was 13.
00:02:11
Speaker
Ah, but that's quite a claim. I didn't know where Weetabix or the a Baptist Missionary Society came from. So thank you for that. You now. Absolutely.
Community and Church in Chipping Sodbury
00:02:20
Speaker
i wondered if you could just ah paint a picture of what community is like and the specific challenges for reaching people where you are.
00:02:30
Speaker
Okay, it's a middle class-ish kind of a place, population 5,500, lots of community connections and community activities, people very ah busy. Those that are working, a lot of them commute from here into Bristol. We're only 15 miles outside of Bristol.
00:02:49
Speaker
and The church itself here is quite an elderly church, so our church membership 70% over and But we've got one m terrific advantage in that we we're on the High Street in Chipping Sodbury and in 2015, so long before I arrived here, the church built a lovely kind of glass front onto the High Street.
00:03:15
Speaker
and um again before i arrived uh employed somebody to train a team of people to keep the front doors open 10 till 2 every day so people are just wandering in and out um all the time and that kind of high street location is is it is a is a real winner for us what would do you say the spiritual temperature is like i mean obviously there's this big national discussion going on and research and surveys being pulled and flawed data sets. We'll find out what the big picture is like when they rerun some of these big surveys in the autumn. But what what are things looking like in your town from your sort of anecdotal perspective? Are people hungry for truth? Are they comfortable in atheism? Are they not interested?
00:03:57
Speaker
What's going on in the context where you were kind of outside the church?
Increased Interest in Faith
00:04:00
Speaker
What's what's the temperature in the community? Yeah, well, I think this, you know, national zeitgeist shift that has been noted by lots of people towards interest in faith or asking questions, i think that's that's definitely reflected here. So we do have people wandering in off the street saying, can you pray for me?
00:04:19
Speaker
Can I have a Bible? and i Can you tell me about God? And Dan, who you you mentioned earlier at the start of the the podcast, is a good example of that. He's somebody that I just knew from my son's football sidelines from a few years ago. And you know he's been listening to Jordan Peterson and ah you know thinking there must be more to life than this.
00:04:47
Speaker
ah Interestingly, his his wife and as well had historical connections with a church toddler group in another kind of local town and was really touched by something. They they cooked meals for her when she had a kid like 25 years ago. And that was was really touched by that.
00:05:06
Speaker
and And now he's asking all sorts of questions and he's on a journey. So I suppose there's an encouragement in in both of those things, you know, a chance to encounter on football sidelines. but In fact, that wasn't even a conversation about God. It was just a...
00:05:22
Speaker
him apologising for swearing too much and something a toddler group did 25 years ago. and these people are now coming and and and asking questions.
00:05:35
Speaker
and ah I suppose that's an encouragement, isn't it, about the sort of points of contact that you have? I mean, what do you is there anything in particular that you put that down to? And I was struck in one of your podcasts where you mentioned actually there were quite a few men specifically and showing an interest in faith.
00:05:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that that was, yeah, last year's Alpha course was all all blokes under the age of 40, which is a bit odd. Yeah, I'd say, oh you know, it's eight i guys that were were there on that course.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah. But no, it's not all it's not actually all guys. That was just, ah you know, we live in a fairly, we're not a huge church, and you know, that's kind of a normal size for an alpha course here would be, you know, four to eight people, punters on it.
00:06:18
Speaker
and But no, it's not always the the last few haven't all been blokes. It was just that particular one. There is... ah A couple of things that have been notable and seem fairly new to me are folks coming from a feeling dissatisfied with a kind of new agey ah take on the world and coming and asking further questions.
00:06:42
Speaker
and And also people coming from kind of the political right wing and on on a journey along the lines of, and you know, yeah look I'm not happy about law and order, you know, the way they are now.
00:06:59
Speaker
with where Where do I get these ideas of laws, law and order from? Everybody everybody ought to behave better. Oh, hang on a sec. Maybe I ought to behave better. Oh, hang on a sec. know, i need I need help to do that. and So we've seen that journey playing out a bit in one or two of the folks that have come along.
00:07:17
Speaker
We had some folks come the day after the Tommy Robinson London march. He told them to go to church. So they they came to church. ah yeah That particular couple didn't come back again. But that this does seem to be a pattern, you know, coming from the right.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's very interesting. my My brother's a pastor in South London, and he he also has said the same. And it's ah obviously been quite quite challenging and knowing ah exactly how to pastor people because these some some had he said he had someone that had quite a big platform and and had said some quite provocative things, and they were trying to make sure that they could really um yeah meet with them and pass to these people. but and And the danger was that some in the church were trying to vilify them. And obviously they were trying to to reach out to them. So that's so that's very interesting. You're seeing seeing that too in your setting.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm talking about, you know, ones and twos and threes. not talking about hundreds of people, but yeah, I'm trying to encourage the church to talk to people about Jesus before they correct the politics of these people or you know try and try in that compare visions of of Jesus with New Agey people or with you know right-wing people or with whoever it is. you know People don't often don't come in with a blank slate in terms of who they think Jesus is or what they think he said.
00:08:37
Speaker
and and so So let's talk about Jesus rather than talking about Nigel Farage or some guru or whatever. Yeah, absolutely. You've checked in a few sort of things in the conversation
Personal Connections in Evangelism
00:08:51
Speaker
so far about the ways that you seek to outreach. ju and You mentioned your your big glass front window and being kind of visible and available to pray with people. You mentioned Alpha. What are the ways to try and connect with your community? what Maybe what doesn't work in your community and what does work as a way of connecting people to Jesus where where you are?
00:09:10
Speaker
I think historically this this church has done a lot of kind of big attractional kind of events, and which i well the the honest truth is I haven't tried because I i want to encourage people to make personal connect connections ah where they are, you know, in their workplaces, in their families. And I want to try and encourage and embolden people to share the good news of Jesus where they are.
00:09:38
Speaker
and we've We've got quite a lot of, we've got a fairly large church centre, so there's a lot of community things happening here all the time, you know, old folks' lunches and Zumba and Mums and Tots groups and Memory Cafe and all of these sorts of things. So that they're already kind of, we've already got a kind of established fringe and Obviously, that that the ah it's not a danger really, but the pitfall with those sorts of things is you get very familiar with people and it then almost becomes more difficult finding a way to to talk to them about Jesus. So it's trying to we try, you know, always and trying to encourage them to come to carol services at Christmas or Easter services and always try and have personal testimonies about faith and lives changed in those services.
00:10:33
Speaker
we am I mean, for me personally, the the podcast is is brilliant because i I then I've got, you know, some of my friends, some of my mountain biking mates listen to the podcast. And then now I i have conversations with the content, with them about the content of the podcast or about questions that they're they're asking, you know, and that becomes a bit of a kind of feedback loop. Yeah.
00:10:59
Speaker
So that's that's very helpful for me. I don't really know how helpful it is for other people, but as long as as long as it continues to provoke conversations for me, I i find that it's that it's a really helpful
Resources for Sharing Faith
00:11:13
Speaker
evangelism tool.
00:11:17
Speaker
Hi, it's Gavin from Solas here. I hope you don't mind if I just interrupt this program for a couple of seconds to tell you that on the Solas website, there's loads more information about sharing your faith, very much in tune with the sort of thing that you'll hear on the Pep Talk podcast. There's articles, there's videos, there's other podcasts, there's any number of resources on there to help you address difficult questions, share your faith at work or with neighbors or friends. is a wealth to explore. Come over and have a look at solas-cpc.org and see what you can find.
00:11:47
Speaker
And now, back to the program.
Hobbies as Evangelism Bridges
00:11:51
Speaker
I was fascinated the fact that you struck on mountain biking as a way of reaching people, having ah a hobby in common with people, and doing kind of those sort of life events or you know sport or something alongside people is a better bridge for the gospel than holding a extravaganza of an event in the church and inviting people to come onto our turf to see things our way. I love the way that you said it's actually, they get some Christian content online, but it's cycling alongside people is a better bridge for the gospel. How can we harness
00:12:22
Speaker
our hobbies, our mutual interests with people as a bridge for the gospel. I thought that was really interesting and insightful what you just said there. Can you tell us more about how we should do that? ah not Not really. I've tried very successfully i've tried very ah very unsuccessfully to get church members to free their inner mountain bikers at a series of of of churches. No, I mean, I just am a mountain biker, you know, that's what i love doing and have loved doing for like 30 years. So and i hang out with other mountain bikers.
00:12:57
Speaker
I suppose the thing that I want to encourage people in though is is not, you know, oh i do say a prayer before I go out, you know, look Lord, let me be a blessing to to the these people. And, you know, if If there are ways that I can point them to you, then let me do that in what I say and what I do. And I just, ah people just ask. I mean, it's probably a bit easier for me because i am a I am a minister, you know, and they all know that I'm a minister, you know.
00:13:25
Speaker
So and in a way for me, it's sometimes like talking shop. I suppose the challenge the challenge for me though is, is, to to share my personal faith, to say, i was praying about this, to say, can I pray for you about that, to say, i find my faith really helps me in that, you know, and I've i've got to man up for Jesus or, you know, step up and and and be brave and in those conversations, in those circumstances, just like everybody else has.
00:13:58
Speaker
I mean, I guess it's it's the sharing of personal stories, isn't it? In in the circumstance of church to say, you know, I said this and it caused offence and I'm, you know, ah I'm a bit gutted about that. Or, ah you know, somebody asked me about this and I shared and shared this aspect of my faith and I was really excited and they they they listened and they they weren't judgmental. You know, getting people talking about those stories,
00:14:26
Speaker
um so yeah i've tried to enforce mountain biking as means of out outreach it hasn't it hasn't worked brilliantly but you know lots of people in in this church are in in choirs or in other community groups and ah you know and to see those in um l-i-c-c language to see those as front lines you know places that we can share the good news of jesus and and yeah and to ask the question of the church what sort of What sort of training, what sort of events do we need
00:14:58
Speaker
and to help us share faith in those ah in those areas. And actually, Andy Bannister came to visit us as a church last year in in response to you know one of those questions. Well, what do we need? What help do we need? What training do we need? And he came and did a confident krista is it Confident Christianity, is that the right there indeed yeah yeah thing? indeed, yep. Event here at the church, which was really helpful to people in in thinking about how they might personally share their faith.
00:15:29
Speaker
Well, Gavin and myself are both avid cyclists. Gavin is, ah he he does the seriously long distances, but I think that's probably the next challenge for you, Gavin, is doing it off-road, I think. He's done John O'Groats to Land's End. The other way around. Went through your part of the country um last summer.
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, you will done it. Going northwards. Fantastic. I failed to get my son to do a bit of off-road cycling near you, and it was to my great disappointment, but his bike actually also fell apart, so it didn't go very well. No, no.
00:16:00
Speaker
ah you You mentioned a little bit about your podcast. You've spoken when in your discussion about um whether the church is declining and actually the use of technology. and wondered if you could say a little bit more about
'Two Pastors in a Pub' Podcast
00:16:13
Speaker
that. I should say it' you are the two pastors in a pub and you have another friend with you discussing things. You sample different drinks, I believe, each time. and Could you say a little bit about how that sort of connects with the culture around you?
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, so yeah, it's it's myself and Matt Frost from Sire and Sister Baptist Church and Karen karen Simpson, and who's the the show host. and It was their idea, actually. They they said during lockdown, they said, we we're going to do a podcast. you want to join in? And so we started doing it then.
00:16:45
Speaker
And the idea is that we talk about questions that we've been asked about faith. Sometimes people email questions in. Sometimes it just stems from conversations that we've had from people and around and about, you know, and in in the context of church, in the context of our lives. Matt plays cricket. So um he gets questions from his cricket play inmates. And, you know, I have questions from my mountain biking mates and we just talk about them.
00:17:14
Speaker
for 40 minutes or so and in in the pub. And it's been going now for, since lockdown, five, six years. and be And it still seems to be useful. And the quite the the questions can be anything, and kind of faith connected. So, you know, classical apologetics questions, you know, why is there suffering in the world? What's the relationship between faith and science?
00:17:40
Speaker
It can be to do with the the kind of people that we're talking to, you know, so... relationship between Christianity and the new age and that sort of thing. It can be just random, ah random stuff. There was one time had an encounter with a naturist in the woods, in, in Wootten Under Edge, where I used to live. Yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
And, um and that, that's prompted a podcast, but then to our great surprise, this chap became a regular listener and regular commenter. and came along fortunately with clothes on to a live occasionally we do a live recording with an audience in a pub and he came along to that so all sorts of topics Can I ask you a follow up on that in terms of As you say, you're connecting with people. I really like the way you often have quotes from people around you and and a live audience. so is that Is that a way of sort of engaging and sort of including more people in in a show, which obviously you wouldn't necessarily often get in a podcast?
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's been very fun. There's a a pub over the road from the church here, the the George, that's got a nightclub room out the back. And the last live recording we did, we did it in that at nightclub room, which is a really good setting. And yeah, just get... and and I don't know, 20, 30 people in the room listening along and asking questions. i I'm very strict with church members. I say you can you can come if you bring a friend. you know this is not This is not really for you. This is for people who are on the fringes, people that are asking questions.
00:19:19
Speaker
um and and they you know they respond to that we get a room full of people and who listen in and ask intelligent questions uh we did that one was about is alcohol evil which was ah a question we'd been asked a question about this you know our alcoholic christianity compatible and we did it in the pub and the the the proprietor didn't seem to mind and did did sell more drinks that evening than he would normally of both not an alcoholic and alcoholic varieties so um yeah Yeah, those have been a lot a lot of fun, but you know places where a lot of people who aren't from church have have come along.
00:19:57
Speaker
So you're working away there in South Gloucestershire trying to hold out the word of life to people, and you're doing it in the church, you're doing it over the road in the pub, and you're doing it online.
Stories of Faith and Interaction
00:20:05
Speaker
What has encouraged you most in your ministry in the last year? Where have you seen Jesus make a difference to people? And have have you seen people coming to Christ? What's encouraged you most as you work away in these different settings?
00:20:18
Speaker
ah yeah It's just the the individual stories encourage me the most. There's there's one chap who was baptised here last year do you remember those three young girls that were stabbed in Stockport a couple of years ago?
00:20:32
Speaker
the e e and his son was about to go to nursery and he watched that on the news and he thought, what is this world coming to? This this is this is a terrible that situation terrible mess there must be more to life than this so he googled religion and christianity literally google christianity and mere christianity came up by c.s lewis he thought i've heard of c.s lewis i'll get that and i'll read it so he read it and in mere christianity it says if you're going to follow jesus you should go to to church
00:21:05
Speaker
So he went out for a run one day and was running through Chip in Sudbury and was looking for a church that was open and our church was open. So he came in, talked to some people there, took a little bit of literature away, went away, watched a couple of our services online. I think listened to one or two episodes of Two Pastors in a Pub.
00:21:25
Speaker
came to church, and signed up for Alpha, did Alpha, has been here every Sunday since, got baptized last year, part of our care group at the moment. And and yeah, I almost don't feel like he was baptized here and we've set him up with a mentor to help him through his, you know, kind of first year of faith. He's part of a care group that meets at our house, like a home groupie type thing.
00:21:49
Speaker
and And it just, yeah, it's amazing to see what God is doing in people's lives. Almost, it's almost nothing to do with us, you know. the the door The door of the church was open. We are running Alpha. We do want to disciple people. But yeah all of that has just just happened. ah Just before I came on online, I made made myself a list people 12 people, not not the same as that, but are on that kind of journey currently around the church.
00:22:23
Speaker
Another four that aren't here on Sundays quite so regularly. and a few others that are around and asking questions. You know, we're not a huge church attendance on Sundays, like, I don't know, 120.
00:22:35
Speaker
hundred and twenty But there's usually 10 people there that are newish to faith and on a journey. And yeah, so that is just, it's really amazing.
00:22:48
Speaker
it's And it's not because of any grand strategy that we've put in place. with You know, we we'rere we're using the resources that we've got and the position that we've got. And we're we're trying to be intentional about not being a social club, you know, because you can join the Lions or Rotary or... and whatever other social club and do good charitable works. I mean, my mountain biking mates run an event that raises like 15, 20 grand a year for charity.
00:23:20
Speaker
You know, they're brilliant. they're really lovely charitable people. And you can join one of these groups and and have a lie in on Sunday. So, you know, we need to be intent. We need to be intentional about we are about Jesus. Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
and and sharing the good news of Jesus, helping people to know Jesus and grow in faith and be part of God's kingdom, this world-changing movement, we we we've really got to be intentional about that and not just be another charity group. say we've've We've got that.
00:23:50
Speaker
I'm trying to encourage, we're trying to encourage that ethos and just use the things that we've got and the available resources But the reality seems to be that God is just sending people at the moment.
Cultural Engagement vs. Christianity's Essence
00:24:07
Speaker
That's really wonderful to hear. i was wondering if you could speak into the question of how much churches should be building bridges with culture, the likes of which you've you've described, and the tension between that and the fact that Christianity is itself countercultural. And of course, that is partly one of the reasons why people are drawn to it. In other words, how should we be in the world, but not of the world?
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? I mean, I think we are in an odd cultural moment at the moment. We've we've spent the last 20 years under the influence of Willow Creek, you know, trying to be seeker sensitive, trying to be really careful about what we're saying, tiptoeing around LGBTQIA, et cetera, issues, being really careful. I think the odd thing at the moment is a lot of these people that are coming in don't seem to be I mean, you wouldn't expect you wouldn't expect the right-wing people that are coming in and asking questions to be sensitive or upset about those things. But more generally, you know even some of the new agey people that are around seem to understand that we're actually...
00:25:18
Speaker
if God's really there, he might actually really have rules for us to live by. and And if you can have a relationship with God, there might be boundaries and parameters to that. And they don't seem to be upset by these things that have been sort of cultural shibboleths, at least in our mind, so yeah for ah for a long time.
00:25:36
Speaker
i mean, this is what they the whole kind of... thing what is it, tom Tom Holland's thing about, you know, carry you know bring bring the supernatural, you know, bring the bring the don't be afraid of the the freaky stuff.
00:25:50
Speaker
and we Glenn Scrivener's line about keep Christianity weird. that Yeah, yes yes sorry, it was Glenn Scrivener, wasn't it? wasn't Tom Holland. But I think he said similar things as well. But yeah yeah that seems to be it at the moment that we can...
00:26:03
Speaker
we can preach a challenging gospel of repentance from sin and, and ah you know, a supernatural gospel of the Holy Spirit living in you and changing you. And this is risky business. And, you know, you might be called to give stuff out and go out up and go out on a limb and, you know, be a bit different. And then, yeah, these folks coming in,
00:26:28
Speaker
don't seem to be worried about talking about Jesus at work or, you know, church at work. And and there's another lady that was baptized with, at the same time as the chap that I mentioned, that, you know, one of her work colleagues is now on Alpha here because she's gone back to work and said, this is what's going on. And,
00:26:51
Speaker
and Yes, yeah i don't I think we're in interest it's a changed cultural moment where we we can and maybe we're realising that we should have been saying these things all along. you know Willow Creek didn't make any disciples, that was the issue, wasn't it? And and now we're realising maybe we shouldn't have drunk that particular Kool-Aid quite so deeply.
00:27:13
Speaker
Well, thank you sharing those stories. They're just really encouraging to hear about God at work and the way that he's using you as part of his plans and, you know, people coming to faith through your witness and that you're available to people who come in. It's great. Where can people find you both physically, but also online? You mentioned your podcast. Where can people find out more about that?
Finding the Podcast and Church Information
00:27:30
Speaker
And where can people listen to your podcast?
00:27:32
Speaker
Well, just Google Two Pastors in a pub. It's on Spotify, ah iTunes, and what yeah Amazon, you know wherever you get your ah your podcasts. And yeah, we're Chippin-Sobbery Baptist Church. If you are in at South Gloucestershire, well, you know, if you're around Chippin-Sobbery or Yate, we'd love to see you. We're hit open every day, 10.30 till 2.30? No, 10 till 2. And Sunday morning services at 10 o'clock. I know what's going on.
00:27:58
Speaker
ah and And of course, they can see you in the pub, I suppose, at a certain time of the week. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, recording's not all that frequent, so that's not necessarily a a good fight time to find us.
00:28:11
Speaker
yeah but thank Thank you so much, Tom, just for helping us navigate that. Exactly what um Gavin just said. It's lovely to hear how God is at work. And I really like the way you're sort of trying to work.
00:28:22
Speaker
and getting that sort of relational aspect and connections with people and and including people in in what you're doing, including even a podcasts, which are often obviously done in a studio without anyone around. and And I really like your point about just the radical gospel is... reaching people and we shouldn't be afraid of sharing that or or sort of feeling like we have to present it in a different way just because people might be sensitive to this or that. So and thank you so much. And thank you, Gavin, as well for presenting. Do come back in a couple of weeks for another inspiring guest who'll be helping us share our faith with those around us.