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Whose Messiah?: Evangelism to Jewish People (with Aaron Eime)
3 Playsin 10 hours
Here in the UK, we might encounter Jewish people that range from secular atheists to highly religious. But Christians can be reluctant to engage in gospel conversation for fear of political pitfalls or cultural offence. How can we navigate the issues we might encounter when sharing the message of Jesus with his original ethnic group? In this episode of PEP Talk, we find some great encouragement and wisdom around evangelism to Jewish people.
Rev. Aaron Eime serves as the UK General Director for CMJ, The Church’s Ministry among Jewish People. Aaron studied in the master’s program at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, with a focus on early Jewish and Christian Interpretation of the Bible. He also studied psychology and sociology at Queensland University in Australia. Aaron is a dedicated Bible teacher exploring the Hebraic roots of the Christian faith. He reads Aramaic and ancient Greek and is fluent in German and Hebrew. He has taught internationally, including in Europe, North America, Hong Kong and China. He is married with three children, both he and his wife were born in Australia.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pepzork Podcast
00:00:00
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We pray the Lord will keep his hand on all we do as we continue to impact the Jewish people with the truth about Messiah Yeshua until the day all Israel will be saved. Romans 11, 26.
00:00:21
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Welcome everyone to another episode of Pepzork, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. I'm Simon Wenham and I have the pleasure of co-hosting today again with my learned colleague Gavin Matthews. Gavin, how are things with you? i've haven't been called learned before, this is a new development so I'm i'm willing to take that, thank you Simon.
00:00:38
Speaker
but you're You're very welcome. Yeah, I think i think you and Christy, seem to use adjectives for, I think I probably need to be a bit more consistent, don't I? And I think I'll need a thesaurus sometime soon as well. But yeah. No, she is learned. but You can use that for Christy, maybe not for me. Absolutely. Well, I think you
Guest Introduction: Aaron Aimee
00:00:54
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both are. But so we should move on to another learned person we have on the show today. at This morning's opening quote has hopefully given us a bit of a clue as to what today's conversation is going to be.
00:01:06
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and One disappointment is we are only audio and you can't actually see that ah behind our guest today is a wonderful Torah scroller. And ah we can see it and I'm afraid you can't, but um um it is it is probably the best backdrop we've had to a guest so far on the show. So thank you so much for that.
00:01:24
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i But I'm delighted to welcome our guest, who is Aaron Aimee, who is director of CMJ UK, the church's ministry among Jewish people. ah Aaron, thank you so much
Aaron's Experiences in Evangelism
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for being with us. could Could you perhaps start us off by just saying where you are and how you first got involved with evangelism in the first place?
00:01:41
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Absolutely. Simon, Gavin, great to meet you. Shalom, everyone. Right. um I am currently in the yeah sunny city of Nottingham, and it actually is sunny in this part of the world for right now.
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um I have not always been here in Nottingham. I've spent 26 years working with CMJ in Jerusalem, Israel. Mm-hmm. where i ah my family sort of grew and raised. I had all my children born there. My son was born in a very small town. You probably haven't heard of it, Bethlehem.
00:02:15
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um Yeah, you have heard of it. Okay, well, yeah now you know somebody else famous born in Bethlehem. And living and working in the Middle East and falling in love with god's ah with the
Impact of Global Events on Evangelism
00:02:27
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Jewish people and God's, ah the apple of his eyes, he he call he calls them, um has sort of sort of propelled me into learning, giving me courage to share my faith and to encourage other brothers and sisters in the church to not to be scared to share the faith of Jesus Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah.
00:02:47
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Wonderful. Obviously, um different times, different seasons. At the moment, the state of Israel is in the news every night because of what's been going on in Gaza and now in Iran as well. um And you're at the forefront of interaction between Christians and and Jewish people. How does that kind of backdrop of what's going on the world affect Christians trying to share their faith with Jewish people, particularly here in in the UK, where you know politics is the backdrop on which we're're we're doing a lot of this kind of work?
00:03:13
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Yeah, me start beginning. It sure doesn't help. So um what we find is people often um superimpose politics and modern day morality and ethics back into the Bible and and and often into their Christian walk. And that's actually not right. In fact, it's got to be the other way.
00:03:32
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and We actually should have the Bible speaking into every aspect of our lives, including our relationship with government and the people groups around us and, therefore, God's people, the Jewish people.
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and And so there is this tension that we that we find. We find people reticent to talk about it. we we we we because of Because of war and because of persecution, people even seem reticent to even share their faith as though the truth might set them free, but they don't.
00:04:02
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but They think that might be um superimposing their ah reality or their their ethics on someone. And so ah we i if there's anything I would like to do, it's like, no, the truth sets you free.
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Share
The Bible's Role in Christian-Jewish Relations
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the truth. Bring the light. um and And you'll find that actually will reflect back. Yeah. The prophet says, arise, shine, for your light has come.
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So the light came, and then the prophet turns around and says, arise, now you shine. There is this thing where we can reflect the glory ah back to the Jewish people. Does not Simeon say when he picks up Jesus, this is the light to the Gentiles and the glory of Israel?
00:04:45
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Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. And you obviously, for those who who perhaps don't know um you know, there are Messianic Jewish people who believe that that Jesus is the Messiah. and Can you say anything about whether that number is growing around the world? And do you do you have any stories? It might be interesting just to hear a couple of short ones of people coming to faith, if that if that is the case. and Because, yeah, we probably don't know the numbers ourselves.
Diversity within Jewish Communities
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Well, when people turn the TV on and they look through the Internet or or scroll the newspapers, anything coming out of the Middle East is bad news. And having lived there for 26 years, I don't see bad news.
00:05:23
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I see good news. And so let's have some, you know, let's have some good news. When I first went to Israel in 1998, then i arrived young naive in the Holy Land, they had taken a census and they had counted approximately 5,000 to 7,000 Jewish believers or Messianics, Meshachim, Jewish Christians ah in the Holy Land.
00:05:50
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And they took another census in 2021, and that number had risen to between 30,000 and 35,000, which means the Jewish church or the number of Jewish believers in the Messiah had grown by five times in 20 years.
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Anyone who's listening now, sit back, close your eyes and go, oh I wish my church had grown by by five times in 20 years. Well, I got to see that. I got
Openness to the Gospel in Israel vs UK
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to live that. I got to participate on it. And that is good news.
00:06:19
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Newspapers won't tell you. So... ah Sometimes we will get challenged and they'll say, but Jewish people don't believe they've rejected Jesus. And you go, really? Actually, if you take a census of the number of Jewish Christians in the church, you'll discover it's approximately 1.6 million around the world.
00:06:37
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Now, that means that is 10% of the Jewish world. How much of Japan is Christian? 1%. How much of Australia is Christian? 8%. How much of England is Christian? Suddenly you realize that actually ah ah Yeshua, the Messiah, within his ethnic people group, is not doing that bad.
00:07:01
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Oh, that's really interesting. And when Christian people kind of meet Jewish people in the UK, they're not monocultural by any means, are they? We meet kind of some people who are very orthodox, other people that take a much more liberal position, and also meet a lot of Jews who are atheists. So how do we relate the gospel to all these different types of people, and are they difference in their reception and when they hear the gospel? to Tell us something about that.
00:07:28
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Just like any any people group, there this being homogenous doesn't really actually um isn't really true. I remember going to Israel in 1998 and I thought, oh, I'm going to love it. I'm going to get to the Holy Land and everyone's going to know God. And I'm going to just talk about God, everywhere going to be absolutely beautiful. My goodness, paradise. And you get to Tel Aviv and you go, what a bunch of pagans, right? yeah you know You've got secularism. But then coming from Australia, that's what you're going to find there too, is a...
00:08:00
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But you come to England and do you have this ah an incredible variety of of Jewish people here too. You've got the secular, the chin-on-im, those that are ethnically Jewish but and culturally maybe, but um but in terms of faith and practice, no.
00:08:17
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But you also have ah an area called Gateshead up in the north, and and that is a ah center for Hasidic um Jewish religious life and training. In fact, there are three places on
Approach to Gospel Conversations
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the planet.
00:08:29
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If you're going to send your son to to to learn Torah and learn learn the Bible, you will either go to Jerusalem or New York or Gateshead. Who knew? so yeah yeah so yeah ah so in this country, you will find some of the most amazing chachamim, some of the most amazing wise wise sages.
00:08:47
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At the same time, you'll meet secular Jews who believe in absolutely nothing. So... Away you go. and And so are would would you find some of those more receptive than others or is it you just can't generalize? or That's a good question. So I found that actually in Israel, ah Jewish people by and large were a lot more engaging with with the gospel.
00:09:16
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ah Now, why would that be? i would think that it goes something like this. ah Jewish people in Israel are much more comfortable in their Jewishness.
00:09:27
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They're in Israel. They've had all kinds of troubles in their, you know, they've they've gone through economic disasters, wars, the world hates them, and yet they remain and they they feel more um comfortable to be able to explore.
00:09:41
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So Israelis do. They explore. They go around the world. You'll find them in the jungles of Mexico, the mountains of Nepal, the beaches of Australia. They will go and visit different religions and ask, you know, what do you do? Can I eat it, drink it, taste it? ah join in And so when they come to meet Christians in Israel, they go, what do you guys believe? What do you do? you know Explain this to me.
00:10:03
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and and But here in in um the United Kingdom, then we are shaped by a history. The Bible is sacred history, sacred history of a people. After the Bible, you've got this tension between
Gentiles' Role in Evangelism
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church and synagogue, which has unfortunately not been very always helpful.
00:10:23
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and ah positives and negatives, highs and lows. and ah And with the rising tide of anti-Semitism inside the church, you've got a reticence for for engagement in either dialogue or even just um being in the same room. And and that is really sad.
00:10:47
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And that is an incredible obstacle to to to sharing the light in this country.
00:10:55
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you're enjoying today's podcast, would you carefully consider supporting the ministry of Solas? We do all kinds of work in evangelism and evangelism training and creating resources all over the UK, working with all kinds of churches to share the gospel.
00:11:08
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If you'd be willing to support us for as little as four pounds a month, we will send you two copies of our book, Have You Ever Wondered? One for you to read and one for you to give away to someone who isn't yet a Christian.
00:11:19
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Hop over to our website, solas-cpc.org and look for the donate button at the bottom of the page. Thank you so much for considering supporting the ministry.
00:11:31
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And now back to the program.
00:11:35
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If you have ah a Jewish colleague or neighbor or your uncle's got a Jewish wife and you're in the same room, what sort of suggestions would you have of
Encouraging Dialogue and Combating Anti-Semitism
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where would you start a conversation that's going to lead to a spiritual conversation that will lead ultimately to Christ and the and the gospel? for what What's the way in? What are helpful or maybe what are unhelpful ways of starting conversations with Jewish people that you've tried and tested?
00:11:58
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Yeah. Okay. So, um, let's Let's do this. in the In the Bible, in the ancient world, and actually in modern-day Judaism, um telling stories is really important.
00:12:09
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By the way, we love it too. you know We just call them sermons, okay? But you have them. and Let me tell you a story. So in 2012, um ah Hamas ah figured out how to shoot rockets at Jerusalem. It was like the first time they ever did.
00:12:24
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And ah on a Thursday, I remember it very clearly, 10 o'clock, um we got this siren sounding which said that there were five incoming rockets to Jerusalem and we had to go to our bomb shelters, which in Hebrew is called the Miklat, which is the same word for city of refuge that you find in Leviticus.
00:12:41
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Interesting how modern Hebrew and biblical Hebrew overlap like that. As we're making our way to the to the bomb shelter, these two Orthodox boys, you know what the yeshiva students look like, the long little payout, the the ringlets on their on their their their hair, black, white.
00:12:59
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They ran onto the the compound, onto Christchurch and said, can we hide in your mclut? He said, yes, of course, come in. So now you had these two Orthodox boys trapped inside a room with about 50 Christians.
00:13:12
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And you go, well, what shall we talk about? Well, we're going to be here for five, ten minutes. Let's let's have a conversation. And as we began
Mission and Work of CMJ
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to talk, we we we started with, what about this prophecy? And have you read this in the Bible?
00:13:24
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We discovered that these young men didn't actually believe anything. They were just culturally Jews going through the motions. And we looked at each other going, wow, if we can't quote a Bible verse, what do we do?
00:13:41
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And we we we we came to this. Peter, in his epistle, says, and it's ah it's a great sentence, he says, always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have.
00:13:57
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And Paul had summed up all of Christianity, all of faith, all of the Judeo-Christian values into three words, faith, hope, love. And, of course, the greatest of these is love, which is, you know, what a great sermon that one is. um But the world we live in doesn't care about your faith. yeah Look, you and Yeshua, you and Jesus, that's great. I'm glad you've got a nice reality. Me and my crystals, we're going to sit over here. Me and the Torah, we're going to sit over here. Don't impose your reality on me.
00:14:24
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We don't need to give a reason for the love. no one Simon, no one's ever going to go up to you and say, Simon, why are you such a nice guy? Please stop that. Okay? It's not going to happen. However...
00:14:35
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If you don't believe in anything, what do you hope for? This world, our culture, our economy, everything that goes on gives you no hope.
00:14:46
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So we looked at these these young men and we said, guys, you're hopeless. What, Sidney? Yeah, everybody blame everything for you. There's no potatoes in Ireland. It's your fault. Okay, they run out of vodka in Russia. Definitely the Jews. Okay, you know, you pick a pick a problem in the world, it's you guys. It says you're hopeless. But can you see that we don't believe that?
00:15:08
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We actually believe that the Messiah is sitting on the throne. We believe God's in control. We have a fire in our eyes, and we believe it will get better.
Addressing Misconceptions about Christian Support for Israel
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and um and And so after they left,
00:15:21
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I got a phone call from ah a guy called Boaz. One of the guys was called Boaz. I got a phone call from his mother and I thought I was going to get absolutely blasted. I thought, okay, that's it. My ear is going to melt. I'm going to get chewed off.
00:15:35
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um I was ready for it. But instead what I got was, what did you tell my son that made him smile? and And so I think, friends, where whoever you are, share the hope that you have, that the fact that Yeshua, Jesus, is the Messiah, he's sitting on the throne, he he is coming back, he will make it better. And people will go, who are you people? like Why do you think that way? and says Actually, it all comes from your scriptures. i wonder why you don't have such a hope. And you can get into an amazing conversation just by that.
00:16:10
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And and so so listen to what Peter says to us, be prepared at all times to give a reason for the hope that you have. that's That's very interesting. and and so i suppose so One of our questions was simply about the sort of theological engagement and what sort of um angle you go through. so do Do you think you think that that is the best approach? because that That's an interesting one for as in non-Jewish people as well, isn't it? and but you think so that That is where you would go down. and is Is there less less sort of pushback in terms of we don't accept your authority or things like that?
00:16:45
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Yes. So once you're beginning, you're talking about a concept. Judaism ah talks in concepts as well as scriptures. Eventually, you will have to deal with the scriptures. So, you know, after you've gone from the concept, is there a God? Is there a hope? You know, where does where does evil come from? What does a fall mean? You know, what am I being saved from and to, et cetera, et cetera.
00:17:06
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um Then eventually they're going to come down to, well, you know, ah we Jewish people, we don't believe in in um ah Jesus the Messiah. Yes, I know that. You've got other messiahs, haven't you? You know, you've got Menachem Schneerson, he's a messiah. You've got Rabbi Nachman, he's a
Conclusion and Reflection
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messiah. Shabtai Tzvi's been a messiah.
00:17:24
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um You will only have to wait like 10 years, well, there there'll be another one, um because messiah is a Jewish concept. It is not a Gentile one. You know, us Gentiles, we're off worshipping the sun, the moon, and the stars. We do gurus and mountaintop experiences. Redeemer figures, that comes from the Hebrew scriptures.
00:17:45
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and And there is this strong theme in the Hebrew scriptures that God is really keen to redeem his world. He's really keen to have a relationship with with his people. And ah and so then...
00:18:00
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you might get into some discussions on, but we don't believe that Messiah is divine. says Okay, that's a great concept. It's really hard one even for Christians to try and wrap our heads around. Okay, I get it. you There's this special day in the church calendar called Trinity Sunday. You know, it's the day of the year pastors have to get up and talk about the Trinity. You talk about the Trinity longer than five minutes, it's called heresy. Okay, you just can't figure out what to say.
00:18:26
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um But you can go into the scriptures, the Hebrew scriptures, and you can find mystery. You see, in the Western world, we want to solve everything, right? We we we sort of we we get a mystery and we want to solve it.
00:18:42
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um we We watch a ah murder mystery show, and if we haven't solved it at the end, we will call the studio and complain. and But in the Bible, you have a mystery and it takes time to to to to meditate.
00:18:57
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King David says, i meditate on your word day and night. So we go into the Hebrew scriptures with Jewish people he and we met and we meditate on the mystery.
00:19:08
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um Who is the the figure seen in Isaiah? When you get to Isaiah 48 and you come to verses 12 to 16, Who is this person called the first and the last who makes the world?
00:19:23
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Yet God sends him. How can that possibly be? um Why do the the prophets ah seem to refer to a ah conquering king?
00:19:35
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And a suffering servant. Who is this who rides in on a donkey? you know there These mysteries that we can we can wrestle with, and you don't need to push. In fact, you probably shouldn't.
00:19:46
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You should go gently and and just constantly wrestle with the mystery. Oh, that's great. That's good stuff. And I wonder if we could just pivot the conversation slightly as we kind of, you know, move into the last little bit of this podcast from thinking about the people that we're speaking to, to thinking about us who do the speaking about, about Christ. Um,
00:20:07
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The suggestion was made but by someone that evangelism amongst Jewish people is best left to people who are Jewish Christians. Is there a role for engrafted branches like the rest of us of sharing the gospel with Jewish people? Tell us how that works. Because a lot of missionaries would say they've really made a breakthrough when the gospel takes through inner culture and people are sharing peer-to-peer within the culture, and they can go home again. What are your thoughts are on that issue?
00:20:31
Speaker
Okay, so I think... So in terms of like missionary history, let's think about it. the The gospel started, the good news of Jesus the Messiah started with a group of Jews.
00:20:43
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yeah And that Jewish world went out and and um approached the Gentile world. and And then as it grew, then obviously because there's more Gentiles than Jews, it was always going to be the plan that Gentiles were part of the story. In fact, they always were.
00:21:02
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When God brought his people out of Egypt, who came with them? A mixed multitude. Jews and Gentiles are part of the Passover Exodus. Jews and Gentiles are at Mount Sinai. Jews and Gentiles are building the tabernacle for God to dwell with them. So it's always been together.
00:21:19
Speaker
the The fact is the majority, 80% of Jewish people who come to faith in Jesus as the Messiah do so through a Gentile friend. That is a fact. Now, it might be slightly different in Israel in the effect that ah as Jewish people who come to faith in the Messiah, they're Israelis. They join the army. They get careers. They become doctors and lawyers. They're everywhere now. So that contact is great.
00:21:46
Speaker
But for Jewish people living in in the United Kingdom, their contact with the Messiah will be through a Gentile. so so So for our friends who are listening, don't be scared to share your hope. You are the gateway to the kingdom of heaven.
00:22:02
Speaker
And absolutely. and And so in terms of actually building those bridges, you mentioned the sort of anti-Semitism and and and that actually shutting people down. do you Do you have any sort of practical advice about how to build bridges in a way that enables you to get to that point of conversation?
00:22:20
Speaker
So Christians, I can't remember who where the quote come from, but Christians should be the last people criticizing Jewish people out loud like this. Okay. and In fact, um, ah one of the things the church should be doing is standing up against anti-Semitism and showing the Jewish people that we are actually a friend, not only a friend, we acknowledge, as Paul did, that it the root supporting us.
00:22:45
Speaker
and And I think... Well, I know. if you engage in combating antisemitism, you will find Jewish people coming to to talk to you.
00:22:56
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They will say, thank you very much. Thank you for being my voice. I find it very scared or I find myself you know a little alone. um Who comes to help me? And it has to be us. It must be us.
00:23:10
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and ah And so I think we need to really church. I think we need to make our voice heard ah ah a lot more in the public sphere against anti-Semitism. And the organization that you work for is CMJ. Tell us just a little bit about what you're doing and and the kind of work that you're and maybe something about where the work is up to today, how it's changed over the last few years.
00:23:33
Speaker
Where is it up to at the moment? This is a 217-year-old mission. it it ah It began, some people probably don't know this, with a guy called William Wilberforce. So at the same time as he was passionate about getting rid of slavery, he was just as passionate about God's calling for the Jewish people.
00:23:54
Speaker
and And also the challenge was to turn around to the church and say, hey, do you know that the book that you read, it it didn't come out of a vacuum. It comes from a Hebraic world. It comes from ah a special land and a time and a place. So let's hear again the words of Jesus, just like the Jewish disciples do.
00:24:15
Speaker
So the the society started in London. It's spread around the world wherever you found a Jewish community from from Morocco all the way through to Persia and into China. ah It's still still around the world in centres like Canada, America, Australia, Australia,
00:24:31
Speaker
there's even There's even branches in India and Israel and and here in the United Kingdom and and and and Ireland. how Our work involves engaging with Jewish people and in standing with them, discussing with them, talking with them. I myself study with a group of rabbis twice a week. and ah and encouraging the church, especially ones that live in Jewish areas.
00:24:53
Speaker
Get involved with the Jewish community. um Don't hide. don't don't ah don't don't Don't run away. In fact, go out and share your hope. And then also to to educate the church in the Jewish roots of the faith. That is, to to hear again the message of Yeshua, of Jesus, as a Jewish disciple would.
00:25:12
Speaker
So putting the Bible back into its context. We we do that all over the United Kingdom um and and around the world. And most more recently, ah using social media, because that seems to be the dynamic that we get a chance to to to speak now. So here we are again doing using that medium. We're using more of that now.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yes, technology can definitely be good in those ways. I agree. I'm actually still really struck about your comment about New York, Jerusalem and Gateshead going together, which has got me thinking about lots of things. But I wondered if I could just ask one final question, which I think is relevant.
00:25:50
Speaker
And that is that I think there is a reticence among some Christians about evangelism towards Jewish people because it's wrapped up for some with a a end times theology. And of course, some Christians hold this, but others are slightly wary of that.
00:26:08
Speaker
um And I wondered if you could perhaps just help us navigate that as Christians, what you think about that. And and I'm yeah'm sorry if that's a really big question to finish this off with. Great question, Simon. And i'm I'm glad you brought it up because I would like to talk about it and I had forgotten. Um,
00:26:24
Speaker
And we discovered that in for for some Jewish people in Israel, they they would would come to us and say, the only reason you Christians like us is you want Israel back in the land of Israel so Jesus has gone back. you It's a selfish Your love for us is selfish.
00:26:43
Speaker
And that cannot be the heart of Jesus at all. In fact, Jesus' heart was selfless. And we we need to we need to be more like that. We need to say, you know what?
00:26:54
Speaker
God... Paul wrestled with the mystery of Israel in Romans. okay Anyone can read Romans 9, 10, and 11. I like the way he starts his preface by saying, to them belong the covenants, and that is in present tense Greek.
00:27:09
Speaker
right And I'm not a Greek scholar, but I do know that is present tense. And Paul says, They're still loved. God still has a plan. Do I understand it? Not 100%. Is Yeshua the Messiah? Yes, let's go. And and he starts to explore. We need to not approach Jewish people as either numbers or just units of, we'll just get them over here. They'll become good little Christian farmers. Then Jesus will come back and they'll build the temple. It's like some of this might happen, but you know what? That's got nothing to do with us.
00:27:42
Speaker
that That has to, our function is to answer the call of the Mashiach, the call of the Messiah, to be lights to the nations. He sent the people out from Jerusalem, and we need to continue to follow that pattern and acknowledge, as Paul does, that Messiah is a Jewish concept.
00:28:02
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The most natural thing for Jewish people is to believe in a Messiah. And ah so share share, share your hope, share your your thoughts, share your desire and let God and in the kingdom of heaven fix it all up.
00:28:18
Speaker
Remember, the disciples asked him after the resurrection, you're going to restore the kingdom to Israel. And he turned around and said, it's not for you to know right now. So get go get busy with the program. Wonderful. I think that's a brilliant note to to draw it to a conclusion. Aaron, thank you so much for sharing with us. That was fascinating. We could talk for another three hours about this stuff. Thank you, Simon. I'd really like to close this but by just reading that quote from Romans 9 that you you mentioned a second ago. Let's finish with with Paul's words. He says, I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart, for I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel.
00:28:55
Speaker
Theirs is the adoption to sonship. Theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. There's are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised.
00:29:09
Speaker
Amen. Amen. Amen.