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Back from IWF.
12 Plays3 months ago
A quick follow up on what Jeff saw at IWF and a home improvement project Jon has happening this week. Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorships
00:00:01
Speaker
The American Craftsman Podcast is sponsored by Hayfla. Hayfla offers a wide range of products and solutions for the woodworking and furniture making industries. From hinges and drawer slides to connectors and dowels, sandpaper, wood glue, shop carts, and everything in between. Exclusive product lines such as looks, LED lighting, and Slido door hardware ensure that every project you create is built to last. Learn more at hayfla.com. Additional sponsorship provided by Ridge Carbide.
00:00:28
Speaker
When you need the right saw blade for the job, put your trust in Ridge Carbide Tools. For over 50 years, Ridge Carbide has been producing industrial saw blades designed with the exact specifications for the cutting results you expect. Before you buy, call us and we'll help you determine the right tool that meets your needs and your budget.
00:00:45
Speaker
After the sale, Rich Carbide provides sharpening services for all your saw blades, dado sets, router bits, and jointer planer knives. Located in Kansas, Rich Carbide Tools provides high quality products with outstanding customer service at a fair price. What are you cutting? Enjoy the show.
Returning to Work Challenges
00:01:09
Speaker
Can you hear me?
00:01:14
Speaker
Now I can hear me. Okay. I accidentally hit the mute button. It's one of those days. Good to be back. Yeah. Back from Atlanta. Today is what? Tuesday. I came back Sunday.
00:01:30
Speaker
Hit the ground running. Yeah. Yeah. Hit the ground scrambling. It's it's crazy. Every time I go away, even if it's for work, it's like the lead up and the return is just brutal. Yeah. It's always, you know, there's something that has to get done. You know, there's always a deadline that like lines up right with it. It's just like clockwork.
00:01:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's the price you pay. That's for sure. I'm sure you were thinking about that going in, but you probably never realized how much you'd be paying coming out. Yeah. Yeah.
Walter's Reliability and Shop Tour
00:02:11
Speaker
Well, thankfully Walter was here. We were just talking about that. Walter came in and, A, received a big order of doors that I was waiting on. I think we talked about how
00:02:21
Speaker
Richelieu kind of screwed me over on those. Camera was out sick. I mean, he doesn't know how to drive the forklift anyway. At least he hasn't had enough experience. Yeah. I had him bring the dumpster out one time, but that was it. And picking a, you know, it was a long, like an eight foot long pallet with fork extensions. Like it's, you know, you don't want to.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, Walter's pretty good. He takes things as if it's his own project. He probably takes on your projects with more stress than he takes on his own projects actually. So yeah, he told me he was coming over to give you a hand. I was like, that's great. It's great for both of you because it's good for Walter to do different things. And it's great that he could help you out.
00:03:05
Speaker
He's doing good. You know that I just posted a shop tour video of his. Well, I said that comment is as true as it gets. Walter is wise and mature far beyond his years. It's cool. It's great to hear that. It definitely does make you very proud. I tell you, my kids turned out good.
00:03:25
Speaker
I still am working on my daughter. She's got time, but she's not out of the woods yet. And when my when my sons were teenagers, they weren't like they are now. But now not only are they all good, hard workers, but they're all friends. So we had really good waves here on Saturday. I ended up working all day just because we have windows coming on Wednesday. I had a lot of prep to do.
00:03:50
Speaker
But all three of the boys went to the beach. They got to the beach at like seven o'clock in the morning. They've got a great friend group and they hung out there from like seven until four. And just to have adult sons that are all friends and all kind of spending time and doing things together. It's a pretty special thing. So it's cool. But anyway, I shot a
00:04:14
Speaker
Uh, shop tour of Walters shop that we shot that video about six or eight weeks ago. Oh, really? And, um, that was cool because not only, excuse me, not only was it, uh, did it do well on the, the views, just a lot of really nice comments. So that's always nice. Yeah. Yeah. I got to get over there. I, uh,
00:04:42
Speaker
You know, Tom shop where I used to work is literally right next door. That's wild. Yeah. Which he was down at IWF to apparently I didn't we didn't cross paths. He was leaving the day that I was coming. So we didn't cross paths. But his name did come up at a couple couple booths. Is he investing in a lot of new machinery? It didn't sound like that was the kind of guy he was.
00:05:05
Speaker
No, he's been shopping for a CNC for a long time. He had a CNC, but he never ran it. Really? It just sat there. And so he's a cabinet shop. He does kitchen cabinets. So how did it go with the CNC shopping?
CNC Shopping and Show Insights
00:05:21
Speaker
Pretty good. So first day I got there, so I flew in Wednesday. We landed around like say 11, made it over to the hotel, which was pretty close to the airport, like 10 miles away. Thanks. Thankfully, we got an early check-in, which was cool. You know, that's always nice when you show up early and they're just like,
00:05:40
Speaker
That's great. Yeah. Especially with kids. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was worried I was going to have to like leave my bags at the desk and then leave my wife and son to just go gallivant around, you know, without me. Just to just to kill time. Yeah. Just to kill time. So thankfully we got into the room and then I shot right down to the show. So I got in there, say like one o'clock. And it's open from like 8 30 to 4 30 every day.
00:06:08
Speaker
So I had a couple hours to go around. I actually met up with Corey. So Corey was there with his family. He had the 40 under 40 for, what was it? Woodworking Network.
00:06:17
Speaker
which is cool. That was Tuesday. So I wasn't able to be there for like the ceremony or whatever. I went over to the booth, but I didn't see, I thought that they had some stuff hanging up, but I didn't see it. Or maybe they had taken it down after like Wednesday or something. But that was cool that he was there, got to, you know, be a part of that whole thing. So I hung out with Corey for a little while, sort of just getting a lay of the land. You know, it's a huge show. It's like a million square feet in three, three halls.
00:06:47
Speaker
super loud machinery just screaming the whole time. So Corey and his dad came with me over to the BSE booth. BSE is an Italian company. They make all kinds of different woodworking machines and then also make machines for like stonework and stuff like that. So I got to talking with Matt, who is the rep for this region for BSE.
00:07:13
Speaker
And we're talking about a couple routers, the Rover K and the Rover AS mainly. And then we sort of settled on the Rover AS, which is, call it like their second tier CNC router. So Rover K would be the least expensive, Rover AS is the next. Five by 10, I think a 17, I want to say 17 horsepower HSD spindle.
00:07:42
Speaker
tool changer, the standard fare for what I'm looking at. So we talked some rough numbers and then I ended up going back on Friday and we sat down with like an actual proposal, which I have in that bag over there. I'll save that. I'll save that information as we get further into the episode. So yeah, so Friday BSC was, or sorry, Wednesday BSC was really the only CNC
00:08:10
Speaker
company that I talked to at length, in any type of serious fashion. So I had dinner with Hayfla on Wednesday night. So I had to make sure I was leaving the show right at 4.30 so that I had to go shower, blah, blah, blah. I went out to dinner with Hayfla, some of the marketing team, Jeff O'Sullivan, who's the, I'm going to get the
00:08:38
Speaker
the title's wrong, but he's like the head of marketing for Hayfla, Kaitlyn, and Lecora, who are part of the marketing team.
Industry Networking Dinner
00:08:45
Speaker
I think his name is Justin and his wife, I believe, is Ali from Rustic Grains, Tampa, I think is his Instagram handle. Do you know that guy? Yeah, I think so. He's a pretty big social media account. He was there. There were some folks from Michigan who have a big
00:09:02
Speaker
big shop. They have like a showroom in Sag Harbor, one on Palm Beach, one in like Northern Michigan, where all like the vacationing happens. I can't remember. It was Paul and Jamie. I'm pretty sure they were brother and sister. I can't remember the name of the shop. They were super cool. And there were some other people further down the table that I didn't really get a chance to really talk to a lot, but had a good time. Nice meal. Nice.
00:09:32
Speaker
like a four course meal, you know. Got my arm twisted into a shot of Grandma Yay at the end there, which apparently is that guy Paul's thing. But that was cool. So we talked about some future collaborations and stuff, which was nice. Then Thursday, so Thursday was like the main day for me there, you know, being that Wednesday was a half day and then Friday, the show actually ends at two o'clock. That's the last day. So Friday is like a half day, basically.
Exploring CNC Machine Features
00:10:01
Speaker
So Thursday I got in and I shot right over to Shopsaber. So Shopsaber was in building A, I believe it is. And A was the only building that opened at 7.30. So A opened at 7.30, everything else was at 8.30. So 7.30, I shot right over Shopsaber and I grabbed Chad's ear. So Chad is the guy that I've been talking to back and forth for the last say two months or so.
00:10:28
Speaker
When I initially reached out to Shopsaber for a quote, I just wanted to just get the ball rolling on something, get my eyes on numbers and requirements and all that stuff.
00:10:40
Speaker
So he had quoted me on an ISA, say going back to like late May or early June, something like that. So they had that machine there. It's a five by 10, same thing, ride along a 12 tool ATC. I think that's got a 12 horsepower HSD spindle.
00:11:02
Speaker
Comes with a loader and an offload conveyor. So it will literally load your material for you and offload the material. It's their newest release. Like they just released this a couple months ago, like maybe two months ago. ISA it's called, I didn't say that, which industrial something, I think that's with the IS.
00:11:26
Speaker
So, I got to check that out. That was cool. They had it running simulated cuts. That wasn't actually cutting. Not a lot of actual cutting going on in Building A. Because of dust collection? Yeah. Not every manufacturer was actually running the tools.
00:11:43
Speaker
So they had it running a simulation. So it looked like it was cutting. They had parts there that they had cut on the machine. They had two machines, the ISA 510 and the Pro 510 or something like that. What is the bit? Is that like a quarter inch bit? So you're getting like a quarter inch curve?
00:12:03
Speaker
Usually three-eighths or half inch, five-eighths. So that's how big the, it has to be somewhat beefy. Otherwise it would break the bit, I guess. Yeah. Like typically, I know with like normal routing, they say you should only be removing the half the diameter or the radius of the bit. So like a half inch bit, you should really only be removing a quarter inch. I guess with CNC routers, it's a little different because you're going to take a full, you're taking the full width or whatever that bit is. Wow.
00:12:32
Speaker
And then the ISA also has a drilling block. I should have said that too on the BSE same thing, very similar specs on the surface.
00:12:43
Speaker
Drilling block, so a nine spindle drilling block. So it's shaped like a L. So that's where you put like your five millimeter bits. So you can do your shelf pin holes, your system holes for your hinges, and they're all on independent Zs. So you could drill all nine at once, which you would never really do. So it's four, five, five by five. That makes sense.
00:13:06
Speaker
So you could drill five this way, five that way. So that's shelf pin holes, system holes for hinges, drawer slides, that kind of stuff. That way you don't have to have a five millimeter bit and just do single holes for all that stuff. So that's on a independent spindle, independent Z, so they move independently, hence independent.
00:13:27
Speaker
When you have had your kitchen cabinet parts cut from this other CNC shop, you spend some time there and kind of look and see what he's doing. What kind of machine does he have? He has a Chinese 5x10. I don't know what brand it is. It's not great and he's able to get it done. So if you get a decent machine, you're going to have really no problems.
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, in theory, yeah. In theory, will you be able to expand your business to cutting cabinets for other cabinet makers? Yeah, that would be sort of the idea. Ideally, you want to have enough work where you have that thing running all the time of your own work, like physically cutting and building kitchens, all that kind of stuff.
00:14:17
Speaker
because there's more money in that than just cutting parts for somebody. But the idea is that if there was downtime, which I'm sure there would be, that you could be cutting parts for somebody else, having that machine make money while it's just sitting there. The only downside is just the constant noise. The shop will always have noise going, which is not a downside. It's a comfort level. It's like you're going to want to get out of here sometimes.
00:14:47
Speaker
But the idea of getting automated and to actually always have that thing, making money, that's just where we are today. Like that's what Walter always says. You just want that machine to make money. Yeah. Yeah. That's why you buy it. You invest and we'll get into the numbers as I continue talking about these machines, but you get into these six figure numbers and you can get into seven figures, eight figures.
00:15:11
Speaker
as you get into these highly automated lines, full lines, where nobody is touching anything. The material comes in, it goes onto a loader, and at the end comes out a cabinet. You know what I mean? Did you see the guys from New Doors there? Yes.
Automation in Woodworking
00:15:26
Speaker
So I didn't catch them until Friday. It's funny, I was walking around and I had to get something to eat. And it's a convention center. So on the perimeter in certain spots, they have like food vendors set up and
00:15:41
Speaker
I forget, there was something and then it was Papa John's and I'm like, oh man, I got to eat this Papa John's. A little pizza about this big, I think it said eight or 10 inches, $14. It was like the most disgusting pizza. Right off the 18 Wheeler. Oh my God. But I'm standing there eating this pizza and I was standing there for, you know, five or 10 minutes, just like sort of staring off into space at the booth in front of me. And then I realized it was Chris and Dan standing there facing the other way, talking to somebody. I had just hadn't noticed the shirts. So, uh,
00:16:11
Speaker
I walked around a little bit and then I grabbed their ear. I didn't want to interrupt their conversation. And then I walked around for a little bit with them. Are they pretty much totally automated? I know that their whole thing is hands off. They're just trying to get completely hands off. They're pretty automated. They have a Rover ISA with a loader and an off-feed conveyor. So same CNC I was looking at from BSE. And they're working towards like full automation. And their shop's about an hour and 20 minutes from here?
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, maybe a little bit less depending on the time of day. So we should definitely get down there and shoot a shop tour. Yeah. That'd be a great episode for the channel. And also just sort of a good feeler to see what it's like because I'd probably just mic up you and either Chris or Dan, whichever one wants to speak. I think Chris was on the video. Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
Uh, so whoever doesn't matter. Um, but just to kind of walk through and see their whole system, of course, they probably don't want to show everything, but, um, yeah, like I don't think they're, they, they don't show the actual CNC of the doors because they have some proprietary processes, I think. Um, but like, you know, we were there for spray day with Nate and they actually have another class coming up on the 24th.
00:17:30
Speaker
Which is a Saturday, I was thinking about sending camera and I'm not sure. So anybody who's listening, if you want to learn how to spray, check those guys out. So they're cool with like showing some stuff, but yeah, I don't think they want to show any process per se.
Pandemic Reflections and Events
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it takes so much trial and error to get to a point to just give it up. It's like,
00:17:52
Speaker
It's just not worth it. You don't get that back. Yeah. And it's like anybody with 200K could go get a full cell CNC and make doors if they knew how to do it. Exactly. So it's not the machine. It's the knowledge of how to do it. And a lot of that comes with just trial and error, which is spending money, making failures.
00:18:13
Speaker
you get that failure and you like every failure is no such thing as a failure it's an opportunity to learn something new i guess if you want to be positive about it at the time it's just like another f-ing failure oh yeah been there yeah same same here so i just got an email from onyta which reminds me that guy bruce ulrich
00:18:32
Speaker
Yeah, he was there and he was like, Oh, Green Street joinery. He's like, I recognize that. I was like, yeah, I was like, we also do this thing. Today's craftsman with John Peters. He's like, Oh, no way. He's like, I love John. Yeah, he's cool. He's such a nice guy, Bruce. Yeah. I met him in person a couple of years ago at work bench con. I don't, he doesn't go to maker camp. I forget where he is. I think he's out.
00:18:54
Speaker
He's definitely somewhere south. He's got an accent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super mellow guy. Really, really nice guy. Um, but I haven't seen that was right before COVID. Like it was funny because yeah, that was the one that I was at. Yeah. We all went to work.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I remember coming back and thinking, like, I feel like the shit's going to hit the fan like soon. And and it was like two weeks later or a week later. Yeah. Like, holy cow. And then everything shut down. Yeah. We installed those confessionals at St. Anthony's the Friday. Like that, it shut down. It was like five p.m. Friday, you know, whatever shelter in place. Yeah. Order or whatever. Yeah. Whatever the hell it was.
00:19:37
Speaker
That was the last time I saw him, Bruce. And I think that was the, that was the first. And I think the last time, I don't think I'll go to work bench con. I like going to maker camp. Yeah. It's easier. Um, I would go like, if somebody was like, Hey, you and John want to go to work bench con and like do a class on, and like, I'm not paying, I don't want to pay to go. Yeah. I would go if somebody was paying our way and, you know, I think Mohawk.
00:20:00
Speaker
paid my way. Peter and I went and they paid our way. Um, we, I think they paid, I think we might've had to pay for our flights, but they paid for our hotel room. Right.
00:20:14
Speaker
So, so that did work out well. And I like Mohawk finishing products, although I haven't worked with them in years. And a lot of that just comes from like not always pushing. You know, like if you don't always push the relationship, it'll just sort of fall apart. And especially like the salesperson leaves, then you got to form a new relationship with the salesperson. But now
00:20:36
Speaker
Um, I still like Mohawk products, but now I'm thinking of, uh, the products that you're using, you know, just because you're having such great, uh, success with them. Now the same thing at the same time on clear coats, I would still go with my same, I would use Endura, but I would still go with the same method of using shellac first or that, you know, shellac
Maker Camp and Sponsorships
00:21:00
Speaker
based dealer. Um,
00:21:03
Speaker
But yeah. So yeah, if you can get somebody to, if, if you can get somebody to offset that cost, because I couldn't believe like when I was talking to you guys about makers camp last year and just knowing the investment that you and Rob were making and then realizing that you had to pay for your rooms and you're running the whole woodworking tent. I thought to myself, that's insane. Yeah. Going to maker camp probably cost me,
00:21:32
Speaker
Even if I just put, you know, what I would charge for time in the shop, like, and then the actual cost on top, like easily five grand. Yeah. Because you and Rob were working the entire time. Yeah. It was, I just, I was just.
00:21:48
Speaker
like kind of baffled that you were not getting comped in the room when you, not only did you give all your time, but you set everything up. You got them to, you got SawStop to donate the saw and you got the sanders. So you did all that legwork, all that stuff.
00:22:08
Speaker
Which, and I think that that was one of the biggest draws at Maker Camp because I saw so many people leaving with the little projects that you go. Well, maybe not the biggest draw, but it was a serious draw.
00:22:21
Speaker
And I think, again, that you were talking about like the whole pushing thing. I, you know, given if we had pushed for it, I think we probably could have gotten those things. But, you know, you don't, you don't get right. But also like, I just don't want to ask. Yeah. And I have no hard feelings about the whole thing. But yeah, it's just too much work for like, there's no return for me. I get the satisfaction of knowing that people came and enjoyed themselves and learned something. But you're never going to get any business from that.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah, just very little direction from the sponsors, whereas like, you know, I would want to lean on the sponsors to at least give some direction to take some pressure off of me for trying to plan the whole thing and whatever. But I'll go this year and just and just have fun. That's the and that's the way to do it. So funny, like when you're just starting out in a business or when you're younger, like from an art arts point of view.
00:23:12
Speaker
They'll say, like, the direction that a young artist might get is, oh, put your art in a coffee shop, put your art in a restaurant, put your art in a jewelry show. None of that means anything. And I think I told this story before where
00:23:28
Speaker
I had a client who was in the Washington DC area and he had bought two paintings of mine and he ended up opening a restaurant. It's called Corduroy.
00:23:44
Speaker
When he was opening the restaurant, my wife is sort of my art dealer. He called Laurel and said, hey, I'm opening this restaurant. It'd be great to have some of John's paintings there as a whole new audience. And because we knew, that doesn't mean anything.
00:23:59
Speaker
Laurel's like, okay, well, if you want to buy the paintings, that'd be great. And you can work with John and he'll work with the architect. And he ended up pulling the trigger and it was like about $70,000 worth of artwork. And it came at a great time because I think it was like 2007 or 2008.
Art Installations and Recognition
00:24:17
Speaker
And I ended up doing the whole thing. If you go there today, it's all my artwork. Nice. But I've never gotten a single phone call or email from anybody who and it's a high end restaurant. Like you have to wear a jacket and tie to go there.
00:24:35
Speaker
And nobody's ever been like, Oh, are you the artist who did all the work for the water, right? And it's like right there. As soon as you walk in, there's this gigantic, I think it's like a five by eight foot steel painting. It's just blue. It's blue and rusted. It's like steel panels. And so it's not like these paintings are hiding in a corner. They're big in your face paintings and nothing. So
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like people come in and they see it and they appreciate it, but they're not there shopping for paintings. No, they're there to eat dinner. Right. So that idea of just getting your work out there or kind of doing things pro bono like this chair you're going to build.
00:25:18
Speaker
Did you see the material out there? I didn't, but I have become sort of a negative Nancy with all that stuff. I just, just because I'm older and I realize like, I'm not saying that I'm older and wiser than you are in any sense of the word. I'm just saying like, I paid my dues and now I'm like, screw it. You want me to do something? Pay me. And the funny thing is when you get asked to do something by somebody who clearly has a ton of money. And that's the funniest thing.
00:25:47
Speaker
Another thing you'll get asked, not you maybe, but maybe you or somebody, is you have people who do these charity balls. Oh yeah. And these are like these... Two River Gala. Yeah. Two River Gala, whatever, right? I worked one of those.
00:26:04
Speaker
These things will be like five thousand dollar tickets. And then so you'll be approached by somebody who's running these galas and they'll say, hey, there's going to be all these people there. We'd love to have some of your artwork. Would you donate your artwork? And I say, you can buy it at half price if you'd like it. And then you never hear from them. Because why do I need to do that? Right. You know, take it off the top. And then and then what they do is they say, look at this wonderful artist. They just.
00:26:34
Speaker
I don't know. I definitely am. I'm not into that. Yeah. It's a play to play. Yeah. You know, if you, if you respect me as an artist, buy the painting for half price and then you can don't, you can auction it off for whatever you want. Right. So that's, that's where I come from. Yeah. You need the money. Two river theater does not know.
00:26:56
Speaker
they have to do is make a phone call, somebody will cut a check. That's actually funny. Oh, so you did a thing for Two River Theater. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So back in the day, my wife was on the board, right in the beginning, she was on the board of that, like when it all opened up in Red Bank, they took on that new space where Blaisdell Lumber is or was. Oh, is that where Blaisdell was? Blaisdell was there. Yeah. So they did a show
00:27:20
Speaker
called White. Steve Martin wrote a play called White, I think. And it's just about a whole play about a canvas with nothing on it. So they said, would you do a show in the theater lobby with all white paintings? So I did do that because at the time we did have the gallery and
00:27:45
Speaker
It was local and my wife was on the board. But I think it was a decent amount of effort for me to like put that work together and like hang the work and all that. And I think like one painting sold during the opening night. And then I had a designer come. This is a funny story, actually. I had a designer contact me after the show to buy a painting that was not in the show, but she saw it was like we had the painting on the website.
00:28:14
Speaker
So this painting was about six and a half feet by six and a half feet. And it was just like these white squares. And when I painted it, I used a lot of linseed oil and I put the painting in storage, but I took the picture like maybe a couple of years beforehand. So this, this designer wants to buy this painting for this client.
00:28:39
Speaker
And so I'm like, okay, great, this is awesome. I'll get the painting and I'll bring it back over to the gallery. I pulled the painting out of storage and all the moisture turned yellow. So I quickly bought a can of the Zinsar oil-based cover stain and just went over all that stuff. Like with a throwaway brush, you know, just like literally took like, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes. And I think the painting was like $12,000.
00:29:09
Speaker
So I go and I paint the thing over with this, this cover stain. And you know how much that stuff smells. And now I bring the thing in the gallery and I'm talking to the designer and I mean, I could just smell this painting gassing off. And I'm thinking like, is she gonna like this painting or whatever?
00:29:25
Speaker
It was like, oh, I love it. And it's so funny because some people, $12,000 just doesn't mean anything to them. And it's not her. It's just, it's going to go in this house in the Hamptons and it's just going to go to an art handler. It's going to go on the wall. And the people that own this painting, they may only live in that house for a month or two out of the year.
00:29:47
Speaker
So that's why like when I, when I made that decision, like, oh shit, this painting's turned yellow. I was like, screw that. I'm just painting over it with a cover stain. And I'm sure it looks fine anyway. And you know, like Jackson Pollock, you used to use oil house paint on all his paints and there's like stories of like some of the paints like not drying. So they have to flip the painting over sometimes. So the paint like, you know, settles down to the other side and there's all kinds of funny stories that way.
Art Sales and Financial Dynamics
00:30:15
Speaker
Yeah, there's always, you know, it'll be like day of install and you catch something. Yeah. A ding or something. You got to, you know, it is what it is. You just got to make it happen. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of funny things. I'll tell you one more art story. This is really funny. We, um, we went to a, an artist home where the artists had passed away. So we were working with the, um, the widow and, um,
00:30:45
Speaker
I walk into the home and I see this other painting, not by not by the husband. Unbelievable. Like I just knew this historically important painting. And so I'm talking to the widow. I don't want to name any names. Super nice. And she knows that I'm sort of like a hands on guy who just kind of does anything. And
00:31:10
Speaker
She's like, I think I got somebody who will buy that painting, this really important painting.
00:31:17
Speaker
But when my husband was painting the house, he got some paint on it. Like, you know, when you use a roller, you get like white. Oh yeah, a little spatter. Yeah. So there's this painting that's mostly black and it's got like these little white little flakes on it. She goes, do you think you could just go fix that for me, John? And so I went into the artist studio, just like kind of touched up this painting that ended up selling for like, like almost a quarter million dollars. Yeah, it's crazy.
00:31:42
Speaker
You should have signed next to the, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of funny how that, that stuff just kind of goes on. Yeah. Again, it's probably one of these paintings that like is in a home that, you know, someone lives in once a year or, you know, like a couple of weeks a year. We're like, yeah, we just bought it so we could insure it. Yeah. Um, I don't know how we got on that, but yeah, I don't remember.
00:32:10
Speaker
I guess I could drop the numbers on. So I talked to BSE and I talked to Shopsaber. The Shopsaber show special was like 105 or something for that. That full sell loader, router, unloader. 105, I think. I was quoted more than that before, but that was, again, it's like the show special if you buy it there, which I made it clear to everybody, I'm not buying anything here at the show.
00:32:36
Speaker
Then I went over to Anderson, so that's another router manufacturer. They're based out of North Carolina. Machines are built in Taiwan. ShopSaber, everything's built in the US. Italian spindle, actually made by BSE. A lot of people use, it's called an HSD. A lot of people use an HSD spindle. The BSE is made in India.
00:33:01
Speaker
So the rover K and the rover AS are made in India. All to very strict BSE spec. They are manufacturing it there admittedly to keep costs down. Because when you step into the rover A, which is the next step up from the AS, you're talking about like
00:33:20
Speaker
getting into like 200 plus just for the router. Wow. So BSE 140 for the router, 20 for the offload conveyor, 55 for the loader. Wow. So that's a, let's call it 215. It adds up. Right. So 215 for BSE.
00:33:37
Speaker
105 for the Shopsaber. Yeah. So then I go over to Anderson. I talked to Tom Flowers over there. Oh, I should say at Shopsaber, I met Brandon. Didn't know who he was, but just, I wanted to grab somebody else's ear. You know, I talked to Chad, but I wanted to, I just want to talk to as many people as I can and get everybody's perspective. There might be something that they know that Chad doesn't or vice versa.
00:34:04
Speaker
I was talking to him for a while, it turned out that he's the director of sales and marketing. He's, I think, the son of the CEO of Shopsaber. Oh, cool. Yeah, they've been at it for a long time. Really nice guy. He loved the business card. He was like, oh, you got to... Where is it? Oh, right there. Nice. He was like, oh, you might have to make some of those for me. I was like, yeah, yeah. Knock a couple of bucks off of the CNC.
00:34:26
Speaker
So yeah, so then I went to Anderson, again, machines made in Taiwan. They own their own spindle making company. So they actually manufacture the spindle. They're not using an HSD. So they have like, I forget, it was like an M series and the CellX, I think it was called, have it in there. The CellX with a
00:34:51
Speaker
offload conveyor, which basically that's what I want, is router and offload. I don't have room for a loader in here, I don't think. We'll see what may or may not happen, but I want to say 140 for the router and the offload for the CELX.
00:35:09
Speaker
Are you leaning towards any particular brand or just doing your homework still? I have some thoughts. I spoke to two more companies. I spoke to Styles.
00:35:23
Speaker
There's is a little tricky. You can't really upgrade later into a machine that can accept a loader at an offload. So you kind of have to do it from the beginning. You can do it, but it's insanely expensive. So their machines are made in Michigan, Michigan, right? Yeah, yeah, Michigan. It's a German company.
00:35:42
Speaker
but the routers are made in Michigan. If you want to get one that's wired to accept a loader and an offload in the future, you're talking like 200 plus. Wow. Or you can get a full cell for like 180, 190, but you have to get it with all that stuff, which I, you know, you're talking about a machine that's 40, 50 feet long.
00:36:04
Speaker
That's a lot. That's a, that's a big machine for this, for this building. Yeah. I looked at on shrewd as well. Gino from RT took me over there. Um, very nice, but very expensive. Um,
00:36:18
Speaker
Again, you're talking. Sounds like Shopsavers, like the most entry level price point. Yeah. So that's my thought. You know, I've heard really good things about Shopsaber and I've had other people tell me bad things. What I'm struggling with, and I said this to almost all of the salespeople I talk to, it's like,
00:36:45
Speaker
Do I really need to get into like a $200,000 CNC here? I'm in this shop. The plan is to expand and potentially move into a larger shop when the lease is up in three years.
Business Expansion Strategies
00:37:01
Speaker
Like, do I just get something lesser, cut my teeth on it, and then upgrade when I need to? I like the sound of that. I mean, that to me is like always working towards something.
00:37:12
Speaker
Instead of like getting ahead of yourself. Yeah. I always liked the idea of keeping your overhead as low as you possibly can with somebody like a shop Sabre. If you're already talking to the marketing manager, maybe there's a way to get a better deal of you promise a certain amount of content. Yeah. Because again,
00:37:33
Speaker
Like there's a huge value in not just having a platform to post the content, but having the on-screen talent and the location. I mean, that's huge right there. And you combine that with a platform
00:37:50
Speaker
And the other thing too is you can always talk to them and say, well, we could do certain amount of projects on John's channel or whatever. Even if it's only two things, I'm sure my people would tune into that. I don't know if they like it or not. Who knows? I mean, I have no idea what people- It's so hard to tell. Like the painting video that we put up, I thought that that would do good. And I think that that will be an evergreen video because it has value.
00:38:19
Speaker
Like I look at that and I'm like, OK, three years from now, somebody is going to be like, oh, this is the paint to use because that's just a question mark. Right. So if you can if you can really help somebody. And I think we talked about this before. We can kind of come up with these five minute or less videos where you're just answering the questions and you're making evergreen content that will always produce a little bit of money. But if you can get recognized for that, then you can secure some of those sponsor dollars. Right. And
00:38:50
Speaker
So that might be something to talk about in your talking to any of these companies, but in particular, maybe Shopsaber just because you've already got a contact with the marketing person. Yeah. And, you know, I like the whole vibe of Shopsaber. It's an American company. They're making everything there. That's cool. They have like a hundred employees in a way. It was a hundred or maybe it was like 80 employees. They have a hundred thousand square foot facility where they're, you know, they're welding up the frames, everything. Where are they?
00:39:18
Speaker
I think they're also in Michigan. I mean, that's also a potential, you know, road trip or not road trip fly out and shoot a video there. Who knows? Yeah. And they actually offer like unlimited in-house training. So like if you wanted to go out there, you could just go out there for training.
00:39:37
Speaker
It sounds to me like that's kind of like right up your alley because not only are you, you know, like you said, you heard some good things, you heard some bad things and that's really all going to come down to customer service. Yeah. Because if you run into an issue and you know that you can talk to somebody and they're in the US and you're not going to have to go through all these channels and you can fly out there and take classes. You're probably not going to have too many problems that you can't handle.
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, you got to take everything with a grain of salt because it's like the people I'm talking to who, you know, have some, I wouldn't say negative, but some skeptical comments about Shopsaver, like are people who
00:40:14
Speaker
are beyond what I'm doing here. You know what I mean? It's not that I don't have aspirations to get to that point where I'm running a million dollars plus some machines out there, but I'm just not at that point yet. Also like this new shop Sabre seems to be a far more capable and industrial machine versus some of their other stuff. Not to say that people aren't running those in high volume cabinet shops like running two shifts.
00:40:44
Speaker
They are, but this new machine seems to really be aimed at competing with a BSE Rover AS. And it's on the market already. It's on the market now. Yep. You don't have to wait for it. Right. I mean, I don't know anything about this stuff, but it just sounds to me like that might be the way to go. Yeah. A big part of that is just a dollar value. I mean, you're talking half the price. Yeah.
00:41:08
Speaker
So to get into something and, you know, the sooner you can pay it off, the sooner you can start really making some money with it. Right. And the lower the payment because I'm assuming you're going to finance this. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, you know, half paying half the interest and half the monthly amount for the same amount of time. It's a big deal. Um, yeah, so we'll see what I do. I'm not, um, I don't know what I'm going to do, but
00:41:37
Speaker
Got to get this kitchen installed first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have electrical work and I have to have it rigged. New dust collector. It's, you know, there's a lot on top of just the price of. That's what Walter said. He said he's got to make sure that he gets the right dust collector because with the wrong dust collector, it's like a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. They say like running like a 10 horsepower. I think Walter mentioned some specific brand. I don't know. I think it's something they might have over a timber.
00:42:05
Speaker
They have an Anderson and they have two shop savers. I'm talking about the dust collector. I don't remember what they have. Oh, I think they have like a neater man or a bell fab. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something I've been looking at. All right, cool.
00:42:23
Speaker
Cool. Well, anything else going on? Uh, not really good. Heading up to hopefully wrap up this kitchen tomorrow on Thursday and, uh, on something new after that. Nice. You got windows coming, right? I have windows coming. I have windows coming tomorrow and, uh, I, I ended up removing the windows because
00:42:48
Speaker
I just didn't think they would do a great job removing them. And so the reason why I think that is the window stop behind, around the window stops and behind the window stops was like a gallon of silicone. And the window stops, which is basically like a big piece of quarter round kind of thing, came out like an inch at a time. I didn't pull it off, you know what I mean? Because it was just all glued in there.
00:43:12
Speaker
So it took me maybe almost two hours to pull out the one major window because it was just like everything was like glued in there and stuck in there. And then I cleaned out all the glue. So and then I made a temporary plexiglass window for the big one. And I put the old two windows. They're just in place with two screws just so they don't fall backwards.
00:43:34
Speaker
So in a perfect world, they'll just come in and be like, thank God, this guy did all the work for us.
Home Renovation Projects
00:43:39
Speaker
And they'll put them in there and then they'll leave and then I'll trim out the inside. I had to redo the outside, add new bed molding to the top crown of the windows. There was a little bit of rot. I'll get into that. So I fixed the rot with
00:43:56
Speaker
It was really dry. We have a two foot soffit and then about a six inch gutter. So we've got a lot of, the windows really don't get a lot of weather, which is great. If you're ever building a house, just a big soffit is such a house saver. Keeping the moisture up the house. I like that look too. Yeah, it's nice. I never imagined buying a brick house. It's just what was available when we bought it. And now I'm like, wow, there's not that much upkeep on a brick house.
00:44:23
Speaker
except for, you know, your trim window trim and stuff. But they had wrapped all of the old window trim and aluminum with a real half ass job. And so when I pulled that off, I had to like kind of scrape and paint. I had a little bit of rot, which I mean a little bit, maybe a three quarter of an inch by two inch hole at the bottom of one of the one of the casings. And I dug that out.
00:44:51
Speaker
It was all dry, dug it out, and then I painted it with epoxy just because the epoxy just absorbs all that stuff. And then after that, I filled it with Bondo and then scraped, primed, painted. And now once these windows go in from the outside, it should be done.
00:45:10
Speaker
So that'd be good. I, I don't know. I've never done windows before. I mean, I've done them when we were building houses 30 years ago, just working in the construction site, but I'm not that familiar with it. And now that I've done the, these are two windows that were in bad shape. Now I'm thinking when I redo the rest of the windows in the house, I'll do them myself. Yeah, it's not too bad doing replacements. Um, it's just all about your shimming, you know, get it so that it operates nice. And that's the biggest thing.
00:45:39
Speaker
All right. So I'll watch and kind of learn from them. And, uh, Tom Silva has got a good video on YouTube. All right. Yeah. I'll check that out. Tom's great. Yeah. Tom Silva. I mean, Norm's great, but I think Tom, you always hear about Norm, but Tom is like, I bet you Tom could do everything in the shop that Norm, I think so too. Norm did. Yeah. I think so too. Uh, they're both good. Yeah.
00:46:05
Speaker
Yeah, that wasn't a dig. We both think Tom and Norm are equally good. Yeah. Uh, it's funny because people would always say like, Oh, Norm this and Norm that when I was back in the eighties, when I was working at the cabinet shop that I was at. And I would think to myself, my boss is better than Norm, you know, cause Bob, the guy I worked for, he was also an artist. So like he would, he would make these little sketches.
00:46:32
Speaker
on just a piece of notepad. Next thing you know, he'd be building it. And Norm's great, but I felt like Norm, Bob was an artist and I felt like Norm was a builder. So Bob was also a builder and an artist. He could draw these things up and then whip them out and just like cut things on the band saw.
00:46:52
Speaker
not like Sam Aloof, but like just comfort, just a comfort level that this guy had and still has because he's still alive. Now he quit woodworking about it 10 years ago. Now he just paints. Nice guy. I'm still friends with him to this day. You know, this is the guy I learned all this stuff from.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah. Norm definitely has chops, but like, you know, he's not world's greatest of all time. It's just that everybody knows him. Yeah. You know, it's like you, like, I'll think to myself, well, I'm pretty good. Then I look on the internet. I'm like, wow, that guy's way better than I am. Yeah. It's just how it is. There's, there's so many people who are, you know, there's so many talented people out there and now with the internet, you can see them all. Yeah. You know, it's like, holy cow. Yeah. It's crazy.
00:47:33
Speaker
Well, what do you think? I think that is good. Everything's good. Hopefully, uh, next time we meet, my windows will be in in good shape and your kitchen will be installed and, and, uh, all good. Maybe I'll be working on the next one and we can shoot. Uh, I'd really love to get into the tool review videos. I sent out a note to a tough belt because I feel like that video is doing pretty good.
00:47:59
Speaker
The engagement's a long time. It's almost at 6,000 views. It gets like 140 views every 48 hours, which isn't bad. Think about that, right? How many people are picking up a magazine and it's going to continue to do that. So I sent them a nice little no, no word back.
00:48:16
Speaker
I think they have some serious inventory problems. Really? Yeah. Everybody, like if a lot of the comments are like, I can't even buy this stuff. Like they, you know, every time I go to Lowe's, they don't have anything. If you go to Lowe's over here, they have like one or two things. That's it. Really? Okay. I mean, so there you go. Maybe they just don't have inventory, so they don't want to get any product. I just, I'm also looking at it for a way to make easy content that is, because you're just good at like going through
00:48:42
Speaker
a tool.
Content Creation and Tool Reviews
00:48:43
Speaker
You know, I've said that before, like, Jeff's the kind of guy who remembers the model numbers and kind of knows the tool inside and out where, like, I'll pick up a saw and say, okay, here's a circular saw, where you'll, you know, you'll know, like, the specs of it. Right. So I think it would be really easy to get into that market where we're
00:49:04
Speaker
I guess, I don't know if it's reviewing tools or just giving like first looks. It's easy content to make and it's evergreen content and it's valuable content because I know that anytime I buy a tool before even, you know, go into the store, I'm going to go on YouTube and see what people think about it. Oh yeah. And get an idea of what it is and how it works. A hundred percent. I did it with all these CNCs, you know, and there's very, sometimes there's very little info.
00:49:31
Speaker
Well, I also sent a thing out to Williams and Hussey because the machine that you bought for me crapped out recently. And I felt like they should just give us a machine and make some content. And I know that Tim
00:49:47
Speaker
Tim over at TrueTrade uses one all the time. I think I said we could go and do a video with him and they're like, no, no thanks. So that's fine. I mean, no, I mean, maybe they'll come around. I think if we had a hundred thousand subscribers and we're averaging 15,000 views and upload, they'd probably be singing a different tune. So we just have to wait for that. Yeah, they were at the show. I saw them too. That's what made me think of them.
00:50:16
Speaker
I mean, I saw, I saw something on Instagram where I must've been their Instagram page. Yeah. Yeah. They seem like nice machines, like the new ones. Well, there's definitely a use for them in your business because if you're going to make some specialty crowns, it's nice to have knives, but I mean, you don't need a Williams and Hussey. You could also use a Shopbox.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah, I just turned down a molding job. Actually, I sent it down to Justin De Palma down south of here, a builder that I work with that I've done multiple runs of custom molding for, you know, they'll do a rental on a house and they need molding to match. And I've run, you know, hundreds of feet for them and they reached out recently and I'm like, I broke the machine on the last last run that we did. That's such a bummer because that would make such a great video. Like it'd be great too if you can get the builder to be like, hey,
00:51:06
Speaker
just, just to let us in the house and talk about it a little bit. Yeah. The value of the machine, the value of being able to remake this older molding. I know a lot of people, I would tune in for that. Yeah. It's the house where I did the kitchen. Okay. Yeah. So we did that run and they need more. So what I did is I just sent the knives down to Justin. Okay. I just gave him, you know, I just gave him the job. And that's great for Justin and all. But meanwhile, that would have been a great video for Williams and Hussey. Yeah. And,
00:51:36
Speaker
You know, whatever. Yeah. You know what? They don't like that people are buying knives from people other than them also. Well, you know, too bad. You need the machine to run the knives. So you want every cent or you want, you know, you want a couple of grand for the machine and then you lose out on the knives or you want nothing. But I mean, I think if they
00:51:58
Speaker
So a lot of people aren't going to buy the knives from William and Hussey because they're seeing other people produce content about other knife manufacturers. If we were producing videos about Williams and Hussey and getting our knives from Williams and Hussey, I mean,
00:52:14
Speaker
It's another, it's another ad for them. You know, it's just, I'm a little annoyed with them because I feel like, you know, again, not only would they be getting the, you know, the onscreen town and the location, but they would get a couple of platforms because they would get.
00:52:30
Speaker
For instance, this podcast, today's craftsman and my channel and potentially potentially, you know, a few more episodes with builders, you know, because that would be something that you could actually reach out to builders. Hey, we make this custom molding. Who knows?
00:52:49
Speaker
Yeah. And like, you know, we always share everything to both Instagram. So that's another hundred, some odd thousand, or I don't know how many you're at it on Instagram, but I've had a few videos like kickoff lately and I was at one 44 forever. And I just went to one 45. I haven't been doing as much now. Maybe I will, you know? Yeah. So you're talking almost another 200,000 Instagram followers between the three channels. Yeah.
00:53:15
Speaker
a million, well, maybe almost a million between the three YouTube channels. I wish I had a million people tuning in for each video. Yeah. Just because you have a million subscribers doesn't mean you get a million views. That's for damn sure with my, I can't believe like my, my videos just, if I'm lucky, if I get 10 or 20,000 views now, really my last project video.
00:53:38
Speaker
I think it's 11,000, but I make the videos now to help people build the furniture. It's a different thing. If I wanted views and I do want views, so I should do this. I should take my own advice, which I've been telling myself now for like a year is to make more tip videos. Yeah. Make more. Yeah. Or just five minute helpful videos. You know what I mean? I bought the 10 worst tools on Amazon. You can just make that video that everybody else has made.
00:54:05
Speaker
But you know, it's funny. Like I can't do it. These guys have a special talent because they'll have a video is a talent. Yeah. I guess it's, I'm not saying anything, but there's a special talent in saying, don't use this finish, use that finish. And somehow talking about nothing for 30 minutes, because that's what YouTube likes. Yeah.
00:54:27
Speaker
But they're talking about it in obviously an interesting enough way, but like you or I, like, okay, don't use this because of X and use this because of Y. What else is there to say? Right. And to say anything more is just like bullshit. It's like... Yeah. I was saying it to the folks at Hayfla and a couple other people while I was there. It's like,
00:54:48
Speaker
We as professionals see a lot of ad campaigns and brands working with influencers and find that the messaging is just not geared towards the professional. Like, okay, Brand X is sponsoring Joe Blow and Joe Blow is making a video about, oh, this week we're turning a garbage can into a boat. What the hell does that have to do with me?
00:55:12
Speaker
I'm using this tool to turn a garbage can into a boat. OK, show me how I can use it. I spend tens of thousands of dollars on tools and material every year out there. Mark it to me so that I know what to buy. That's why I think videos like, you know, the paint to use or whatever, cabinet paint to use period. That's why I think that's a good video because I think cabinet makers, whether they're experienced or they're just getting into it, can look at that video and be like, OK,
00:55:41
Speaker
It's not just coming from you. It's the guys at new doors are using it. I mean, this is a proven thing. So it's good tested information. And it may take a little bit longer to get going. I mean, sometimes I think maybe we should try to hire a like a young model to like replace you or maybe we need a tool thumbnail. We need a tool time girl. Yeah. You know, I'll say one more thing. I've always thought like for like when I do my furniture, uh,
00:56:11
Speaker
thumbnails, I try to get like a nice picture of the piece of furniture, whatever. It never does great. But there was a guy I knew who was in the high-end camping business, like people who would like, you know, go to Mount Everest. Like it's not so much camping, but like outdoor, like crazy stuff.
00:56:36
Speaker
every one of his ads, he'd have a naked woman in it. So he'd have like a tent set up next to like, you know, like a big mountain in the background and like the back of a woman standing like with no clothes on, like off to the side, whatever. And he was just like a regular dude. He's like,
00:56:56
Speaker
He's like, well, John, that's what sells. This is like this is like 35 years ago. I remember talking to him. He showed me this this magazine and it was very artfully done. And he's like, yeah, you know, that's that's just the way it is. It works. It works. Yeah. So sometimes I'm thinking it'd be fun to like have a thumbnail of like you couldn't be completely nude, but like a somewhat nude woman next to one of my pieces of furniture or whatever and just see what happens.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah. Like laying facing the other way or something. Yeah, exactly. Or sitting on it with facing the other way with her back to the camera or whatever. But I've, I've actually seen, uh, you know, the ant chair. I forget who the, um, the ant chair is a famous chair. Um, I forget the name of the designer, but I saw one where it's like a silhouette of a woman sitting on the ant chair.
00:57:52
Speaker
Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one of those chairs where when you find out what it's called, you see it everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Our, our knockoffs, you'll see knockoffs. Yeah, exactly. Are the tulip chair. Yep. That was like the, um, Oh man, we talked about a chair when we did the 12 periods of American furniture. I forget, but it was like, you see it everywhere. Maybe like the Eames chair. Not that it was a more obscure one that dated all the way back to Egypt. Oh wow. Yeah.
00:58:23
Speaker
I can't remember what it was called, but anyway. Well, man, I guess you got to bite the bullet and get back in the shop. Yeah. Hopefully my hardware is about to show up. Um,
00:58:33
Speaker
Yeah. So, uh, if you haven't already, make sure that you're subscribed on YouTube and, uh, it'd be great if you could leave a review for the podcast. Definitely. Did we have a comment of the week on the tools? Um, uh, we didn't have a ton. I feel like that was another video that I thought would do great. It's like, man, people love hand tools and it's like a thousand views. Yeah. I, I didn't think that video would do as well. See, I thought that would do good. And I, I didn't have faith in the finishing one.
00:59:02
Speaker
I think the finishing one's just going to continue to grow. Um, I read it, but there wasn't a ton. There wasn't, I, I don't remember any standing out. Oh, this one's funny from Tom McGuire.
00:59:22
Speaker
It has a laughing emoji and it says KJ. That's his wife. Why are you watching Jeff talk about tools? It makes me nervous when you watch Jeff talking about tools. I responded. I said, if you need to have them shipped to the shop, just let me know. That's good. Yeah. I remember that one now. Tom's a good guy. Well, we'll catch you next week. Make sure to check out Saturday's video on three different Stree Big Saws.
00:59:50
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. I'm going to start editing that. So that's a little bit different. Yeah. Live from a WWF. A little bit of a noise warning on that one. So you get a feeling of what Jeff was living with for a couple of days there. Yeah. And what, what the people working those booths were, were living with. Oh yeah. Everybody had a horse. Oh my God. It had to be just screaming at each other. All right. Good, good. Good hanging out. All right. Catch you guys next week.
01:00:19
Speaker
If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend or share it on social media. You can leave a review of this podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And don't forget today's Craftsman YouTube channel has an upload every Saturday morning at 8.30 AM Eastern. We'll see you next week.