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Dunn and Dunner with Dumb and Dumber
148 Plays3 years ago
This week we are throwing some white suburban woman energy into art history…(we know you all just LOVE that) because we are discussing the artist behind the Rae Dunn brand - the thing Live/Laugh/Love sign collectors can’t get enough of. We also give an updated assessment to some of last week's Met Gala looks. And in Art News, we're talking about the shimmering wrapping of Paris' Arc de Triomphe.
For all of Artpop Talk's resources, click HERE.
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Transcript
Introduction and Met Gala Recap
00:00:00
Speaker
hello hello and welcome to our pop talk I'm Gianna and I'm Bianca this week we are throwing some Karen energy or even cult vibes into art history today because we are discussing TJ Maxx and even more specifically brands such as Rae Dunn in which suburban women can't get enough of
00:00:23
Speaker
We are also adding a little bit to last week's episode when we covered the Met Gala to share some more information and conversations about some of the red carpet looks now that a bit more time has passed since our last recap. Ready to join our cult? Let's art pop talk. Hey girl, happy almost birthday. Wow. Thanks. If you're listening to this on Tuesday when the episode drops, Gianna's birthday is on Wednesday.
00:00:51
Speaker
I hate that my birthday's on a Wednesday. Nobody likes Wednesdays. But your birthday's a special day. One, because it's your birthday, but two, not that I'm thrilled about it, but many people love to welcome in the new season of fall. Yes, that's true. I feel like I probably said this last year, but I do feel extra special with my birthday being on the first day of fall, even though I don't
00:01:17
Speaker
consider myself like a super fall aesthetic person. I am kind of already upset that it's 740 in the evening and pretty dark out. Yeah. Yeah. We're entering the depths of winter. The depths of winter. God. Well, I hope you have a good day. I'm excited to hear all about it.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be a good day. I think I work in the morning because it's a Wednesday. And then I might just go to dinner. But Bianca, my birthday weekend, guess where this was the only thing that I wanted to do on my birthday. Guess where I have picked to go. Oh, fellows? No, but very close. Oh, around the corner? Yes.
00:02:02
Speaker
Oh my god. I just told, I told mom and Adrienne, I just want to fuck up some blueberry pancakes. Blueberry pancakes. The only place to do that is around the corner, which is just a local breakfast restaurant that has been around for a very, very long time and a huge part of Bianca and I's childhood. Oh, yes. Around the corner in Othello's. Best place to get breakfast and then dinner.
00:02:31
Speaker
You know, Othello's, they are actually owned by the same family. So if you want to give me that sponsorship, I won't be mad. That birthday sponsorship. Could you imagine if APD got sponsored by Around the Corner? It's my birthday gift to me. I'm so happy. Happy. All right. Well.
Social Media and Personal Anxiety
00:02:50
Speaker
Bianca, should we get into a little bit of some of our thoughts from last episode, some of our feelings from the Met Gala? Yeah, definitely. So I'm sure that all the listeners have been inundated with a ton of coverage about the Met Gala. I'm already just kind of like exhausted by the topic in itself, I guess. But we just wanted to follow up with a few things because we do think that they're important
00:03:19
Speaker
First on the list, I'm just going to go through a bunch of bullet points that we have. I guess an umbrella term for this whole conversation is just irony in itself. But yeah, I think there are a lot of fair criticisms that came out about AOC being at a very rich, ritzy function, wearing a dress that said tax the rich.
00:03:42
Speaker
you know, it's a great statement. And I think a lot of people resonate with it. Of course, Gianna and I resonate with that sentiment. In practice, though, it's ironic that she's wearing this dress and she can get praised for it by these people that are surrounding her at this event. But we've got to put that into actual law. So
00:04:06
Speaker
I completely understand a lot of the feelings that people had towards that dress, but, you know, Gianna and I are hypocrites in ourselves for wanting to talk about the Met Gala, but also, you know, maybe we are the tax the rich dress over here at APT where we're just hypocritical about things, but that's sometimes the nature of art history and pop culture. Yeah, well, I even felt
00:04:35
Speaker
as though in our first episode, I wasn't even ready to talk about that outfit that much. Because as you just said, Bianca, I felt very exhausted the minute I logged onto social media after the Met Gala and just hearing the saturation of in-depth analysis to not so in-depth conversations, just likes and dislikes. And I got over it really fast, and also this is
00:05:05
Speaker
like a longer conversation for another day but the way that I feel towards social media these days has got me very overwhelmed and has caused just like a lot of anxiety for me personally and I feel myself slowly slowly moving away yeah strongly moving away from those types of platforms but it was an irony in the sense that like I was trying to grapple with where does she fit
00:05:34
Speaker
in this. I don't because I feel hypocritical sometimes when I say you know I like my celebrities to be celebrities and I like my politicians to be politicians and
00:05:48
Speaker
I don't want Oprah to be precedent.
Politics and Art: Intersection and Impact
00:05:51
Speaker
I want there to be a line between the two. But then- But that doesn't mean that celebrities, people are in nature, political beings. Well, right. And it's hard because also I think about my own work. My own artwork is political. And I'm an artist, an art person, an art buff that's
00:06:14
Speaker
breaking those lines and entering the political world. But also you and human beings having a body is political. Like we are political people. And so the lines are cross. But I think we are all just, or at least speaking for myself, a little bit traumatized by some of the American icons that have put into positions of power.
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah, political positions and it's scary. Right, right. Yeah. So definitely valid criticisms and like they are extremely important. And yeah, at the end of the day, it's a good conversation to have.
Cultural Representation at the Met Gala
00:06:55
Speaker
Next bullet point in irony is that in the theme, American fashion in itself, there was a lack of discussion on the red carpet.
00:07:05
Speaker
from native designers. And after the mekala, I did not actually see her walk the runway, but Quana chasing horse got a lot of amazing attention. A quote from her reads, it's extremely important to represent and bring authentic and true American culture into this year's theme.
00:07:25
Speaker
as Native American culture has been appropriated and misrepresented by fashion so many times. Reclaiming our culture is key. We need to show the world that we are still here and that the land that everyone occupies is stolen native land. So there were great points raised.
00:07:44
Speaker
after the red carpet about how we are talking about an American lexicon, but there are a lot of people in that American history that are being completely wiped away from the face of this carpet. It was interesting, Bianca, as you did mention with her, with her outfit, it wasn't covered in at least what I saw and
00:08:09
Speaker
just through the live stream, but it did get a lot of attention through social media platforms. That was really interesting. But it did get me thinking about just the things that we didn't see. And I was thinking so much about
00:08:24
Speaker
Halsey coming out with a statement saying, you know, what's more American than a woman having to go back to work after just getting birth. And so that's part of the reason she wasn't at the Met Gala. Right. And there was also a pretty large conversation about 9-11 and how time wise the memorial was taking place so closely to the Met Gala.
00:08:45
Speaker
And there wasn't a lot of Muslim representation on the carpet. And then Diet Prada had a post talking about Representative Maloney, which we can link for you. That was, it was really a shame to learn about after seeing her look, because as we talked about in last week's episode, I liked the look, I thought it reminded me of Mary Poppins. And I like the idea of hearkening back to
00:09:07
Speaker
to a suffragette, hopefully in a positive context. But then we saw Diet Prada wrote, quote, in 2001, Maloney dressed in a burka to justify the invasion of Afghanistan. So that was really frustrating to see.
00:09:27
Speaker
In regards to Kim's look, we got a DM from an art pop-tart who shared that there were some conversations taking place with the situation in Afghanistan and 9-11, and how niqabs and other coverings are being miscast as oppressive garments rather than a woman's personal religious choice, except for when forced. But like the art pop-tart, we're saying there's like a hypocriticalness of Islamophobia and Islamophobic America praising
00:09:55
Speaker
Kim Kardashian in a full covering against the lived experience and discrimination of women who choose to cover in this way every day.
Kardashian's Anonymity and Cultural Hypocrisy
00:10:04
Speaker
So that was a really interesting conversation that was brought to our attention. As I was looking more into the look itself, Kim's Instagram caption wrote, quote, what's more American than a t-shirt head to toe. Okay.
00:10:17
Speaker
A Vogue article states that Kardashian, quote, rewrote the red carpet's rules, completely obscuring her features and famous physique. The look gave the reality star something she hasn't had in a long while, anonymity. Kim then reposted a tweet that goes as follows, quote, for someone who is always criticized for being overly sexual, Kim showed she can cover every square inch of her skin and still find a way to be criticized and ridiculed. That is American culture.
00:10:46
Speaker
Finally, she reposted an Instagram story from that same account, Diet Prada, that read, quote, when you're so famous, you can literally make anonymous your new look. Say what you want about her new direction, but it's definitely not boring. So I think this is another really interesting conversation. I think there's a lot to be said about Kim Kardashian and this look in particular. I think that both
00:11:11
Speaker
both points of the conversation surrounding her look are justified. I think that people have a very strong right to criticize this kind of covering that she wore in conjunction with the theme and American lexicon of fashion. I absolutely see that. But I also think that the look in itself, what she's doing with it with this idea of anonymity is actually
00:11:35
Speaker
super interesting. So yeah, I don't know, just some follow ups to share with you guys. I know that it's been a lot and you've probably seen a ton of other coverage about the Met Gala, but we just wanted to follow up now that we have a little bit more info about these things.
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Bianca, and just kind of to pinpoint about Kim's Met Gala look, the last thing that maybe I'll add to that is my overall concern with the Kardashian empire is a little bit of the mysticism and also calculative nature that we can't quite pin
00:12:19
Speaker
point down because no matter what I feel as though they're in a position to come out on top, I fully think that the intent behind this outfit is what is being described from her. But do we know if those
00:12:40
Speaker
Concerns about it were actually thought through and they just decided to go with it. Maybe they were maybe they weren't it kind of is Is going to be forever fascinating to me that no matter what I do feel like they have such an elaborate team though that there's no way To me there can't possibly be a way where somebody missed that. It's kind of like when Kim Kardashian Photoshopped her her own body
00:13:10
Speaker
in a Skims video, so where you could see her finger be warped as it clearly like swiped over her, like her thigh and her hips. There is no way that they miss that. Right. It's so calculative and mysterious. And we could do a full episode about that mysticism. But I think this is just another layer in which I think about how they construct their
00:13:40
Speaker
persona or their empire, whatever you want to call it.
Christo's Arc de Triomphe Project Realization
00:13:44
Speaker
I think that's a great place to end on that, but I am actually very, very excited to talk about art news today.
00:13:57
Speaker
And this is also a subject that you guys have seen a lot. This was big art news. You probably saw it talked about on big platforms. If you watch CBS Sunday morning, they did a really good coverage of the Arc de Triomphe. So let's talk about what's been going on in Paris.
00:14:19
Speaker
encasing the Arc de Triomphe in cloth was a long-standing vision of the late artist Christo and Jean-Claude, one that finally came into focus this summer. It began with 400 tons of steel beams erected like a metal jacket around the structure, followed by the wrapping which was conducted by a team of climbers over the course of a few days.
00:14:41
Speaker
Following the project's completion on Thursday, the arc will remain transformed for just 16 days. A very, very common timeline for these artists. The unveiling of the installation officially titled L'Art de Triomphe wrapped
00:15:01
Speaker
comes 60 years after Christo first became enthralled with the idea of wrapping the monument, more than a decade after Jean-Claude's death, and over a year since Christo passed away last May. Originally scheduled for the spring 2020, the project was first delayed out of concern for falcons nesting in the arch, which is interesting, as their work does bring up a lot of kind of environmental impacts and studies, which we'll get into.
00:15:29
Speaker
And then because of the ongoing pandemic, of course. Like many of Christo and Jean-Claude's other projects, L'Art de Triomphe, wrapped, is poised to be a fleeting, sublime encounter with an environmental artwork that interrupts the experience of the everyday. So Christo's nephew, Vladimir, and the project directors of the operation who worked with artists for 30 years-ish or onward, explained that the shimmering color of the fabric and the vivid ropes are Christo's
00:15:59
Speaker
quote, poetic interpretation of the blue, white and red of the French flag. His nephew states, he liked colors that also changed with the weather or the time of day. The fabric is very reminiscent of Paris rooftops, which are very silvery gray. This piece kind of
00:16:19
Speaker
I think had us all shedding a tear. I think it was very poetic in a lot of ways to see a project come to fruition after both the artist's passings. If you're not familiar with this dynamic duo, they were also in a relationship, I believe they were married for
00:16:41
Speaker
a very long time, but their story is is quite romantic. And I did think it was cute and watching some of the coverage about them, kind of how their relationship came to be. If you are familiar with this dynamic duo, however, one of the pieces that you might have studied in a classroom setting was the Gates, which was a very large installation installed in Central Park where you could walk through these
00:17:09
Speaker
these rectangles erected out of the earth that you could walk through and they're red and they have orange-ish fabric kind of draping in between them and they spanned it over a huge range of landscape in the park. And that was also up for a very short time, only about two weeks. So this is a very common timeframe. What was so fascinating to me about
00:17:32
Speaker
learning about this project was how they are actually made. And what I mean by that is where is the money coming from? And this is such a huge, huge, huge part of their concepts as beings, as artists. And Bianca, before I get into that a little bit, I want to know if you knew about any information about the finances backing this duo's projects.
00:18:01
Speaker
For all these years and what were your initial thoughts about lark to trump? Um, I love the piece. I think it's really beautiful I i'm sure we've talked about it in previous episodes, but I have a very very Large place in my heart for the city of paris. I think it's like the most beautiful place in the world and
00:18:23
Speaker
I just love it. I love being there and I feel like I always can't wait to go back and I just love the city. I think that what I really loved in terms of the coverage of this piece was how people on the streets were reacting to it. And sometimes whenever you live in a place like that, that's so
00:18:46
Speaker
full of historic objects and very beautiful monuments and these kind of icons. I mean, you have the opera house, you have the Eiffel Tower, you have the Arc de Triompie, you have the Louvre, you know, there are so many amazing things built right into your landscape every day that
00:19:05
Speaker
Whenever you become accustomed to it, it becomes the norm. I think the concept of taking things for granted was a really fascinating aspect to this piece in particular. Whenever newscasters and journalists were asking people on the street what they think about it,
00:19:21
Speaker
it made them fall in love with their city even more and they were just talking about how it brings them a new perspective and they're revitalizing a piece of the city that you pass by every day whenever you live there and sometimes you don't even really think about it any longer. But then this little girl was talking about how
00:19:43
Speaker
now in two weeks or so when the piece is unveiled, it's actually going to be another like a new piece of art that's underneath it. And they're going to look at the the original arc in a different way once the fabric has all come down. So I think it's just beautiful. The sentiment behind it is is beautiful. And also the fabric is gorgeous. I just love the way it looks like the shimmeriness of it. I think as someone who really loves that city,
00:20:12
Speaker
I think like the glitteriness of the fabric just like fits so well within the landscape and everything about Paris has that like the his nephew said that kind of blue silvery tint to the roofs and that kind of gray aesthetic to the buildings and I just I love it I think it's stunning.
00:20:34
Speaker
I loved everything you said and I loved how people got it, viewers got it, community members got it. And when they were interviewing people on the street, they were asking a question, is this art if it is short-spanned, if it is ephemeral? And I think that can be such an intimidating question.
00:20:58
Speaker
When talking about contemporary art, but it wasn't an intimidating question for people to answer for this piece. They're like, that's what makes it special. Like art can be fleeting. Not everything is constant. And that is the point of this piece to interrupt that daily experience. And so it just...
00:21:17
Speaker
Oh, it just made me happy. I was like, yes, like you got the assignment. Like you get an A, you get an A. Like they just got it. And it was so great to see. Another interesting thing about the financial backing for this project was that it did fall in line.
00:21:36
Speaker
with concepts that Jean-Claude and Christo practiced through their entire career. So one of the things that I did not know is that Christo got a lot of his money through art by doing portraiture and doing paintings. And then those seeked a lot of popularity. And in the beginning, that's kind of how he met Jean-Claude was by painting her. And then they fell in love and killed me. Yeah, he stole her away from her husband. He did.
00:22:06
Speaker
I get it. I very much get it. So everything that they were doing with this type of big art installation, this earth art, this architecture art, this interrupting that mundane everyday experience was all financially back through them. Right. And it had to do with this concept of freedom.
00:22:30
Speaker
They came from places and governments with, you know, a communist upbringing. And so that idea of freedom was so essential to everything that they did. They didn't want to rely on anybody else. They didn't want to rely on a grant or money from everything.
00:22:46
Speaker
for anything they did. So all the money they were bringing in was from other art projects. And I love the way that in past interviews, Jean Caud explained it, how we are just like any other artist. That's how we sell our artworks and that's how we're making a living. And then we get to financially back in and do these bigger projects that we want to do for everybody. So how was L'Arc de Triomphe funded?
00:23:12
Speaker
So, in total, the project cost around 14 million euros, about 16 million USD. But, as I just said, like all of Christo and Jean-Claude's project, the L'Arc de Triomphe wrapped will, according to a spokesperson for the project, be entirely funded through the sale of preparatory drawings and other original artworks. And Sotheby's Paris is hosting an exhibition and private sale featuring 25 of the artworks,
00:23:40
Speaker
with Proceed going towards the project and the artist's foundation. So I know that we don't always hear it for the auction house and there are a lot of things to critique about that part of the art world as well. But this is so cool to see this collaboration coming in from all sides and it feels as though it can be a rare moment where we get to experience that type of thing and to see all of
00:24:09
Speaker
these different people coming together to really do these artists justice was really, really lovely. Yeah. Yeah. It was such a beautiful memorial to not that their work will ever be forgotten or things like that. Obviously we talk about it in art history all the time, but it was nice to see that dream brought to fruition. I think it's a really lovely way to memorialize the couple in a way. Yeah.
00:24:39
Speaker
We might share some of these images too, but I will share the article from, I believe, CNN, and I'll link it in our resources page for you guys. So if you want to read the full article, definitely go do it. I think it has a great synopsis of the project. But they also share images of this original drawing that Christo drew of the Arc de Triomphe. And they put the red rope
00:25:09
Speaker
exactly in these kind of subtle askew ways that he drew it in this image. And so for something to happen on such a monumental large scale to capture these tiny little details that you might not think matters, matters. And he said that he would never do a piece in France if it wasn't going to be the arc. So it's nice that
00:25:37
Speaker
this was, you know, the last project that wherever he may be, or whatever energies of the universe came to fruition. Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. So all right, everybody, we are going to take a short break.
Rae Dunn: Art and Consumer Culture
00:25:49
Speaker
And when we come back, I promise we will get into the cult of it all.
00:26:24
Speaker
This one has been in the works for a while or another element since the inception of our pop talk that Bianca and I thought was key in getting you all to see the intersections between history and the consumer world. And interestingly enough, I'm afraid friends, this intersection is at TJX companies, which includes Marshalls, TJ Maxx, HomeGoods, and more discount stores in other countries.
00:26:54
Speaker
So for today's our pop talk, we are going to take a little field trip. I want you all to take your metaphorical bodies out of APTHQ and place them wherever you frequent a TJX storefront most.
00:27:15
Speaker
I don't care, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, but maybe visualize some culturally appropriated decorative objects, art historical appropriated objects, and a crowd of white women fighting over the latest and exclusive Ray Dunn Halloween ceramics.
00:27:32
Speaker
paint you a little picture there. Let me paint you a little picture. For today, we are going to focus on Rae Dunn, the person as the artist, how this cult following started, how she became a brand, and why this is an interesting consumer case study, essentially, for us to look at in terms of these objects and their demand.
00:27:58
Speaker
But I want to first open up this conversation to other decorative objects we have seen in TJ Maxx that are appropriate and okay sometimes and also not okay to see sometimes. Whether the item is okay or not okay, this conversation will be a good way to get the museum juice flowing. So Bianca, what are some appropriated items you have seen in a store such as this?
00:28:26
Speaker
Well, I see a lot of mid-century modern furniture. That's, you know, if that's your design aesthetic. Great find sometimes at TJ Maxx. A lot of picture frames. Nothing wrong with a good gold medal frame. Love that. Holiday decor. You know, you can get a great fall wreath I hear for those of you who like fall. See a lot of good pumpkin decorations. Nothing wrong with pumpkin.
00:28:53
Speaker
Tiny pumpkins. They've got a lot of bedding. You can get a great bed set at TJ Maxx. I was in the mood for some sheets, new sheets the other day, and look through their store. That's great. That's a great find. Sheets are expensive. You know that? Sheets are so expensive. What the hell?
00:29:14
Speaker
We can get a great price if you're a Maxinista. They've got baskets, they've got boxes, and you know those are items that are pretty hard to mess up. I like to think you know there are probably some where
00:29:34
Speaker
that you could find. I bought a basket at Marshall's the other day. I've bought a basket or two from a TJX corporation.
00:29:46
Speaker
Even this basket was like fucking expensive though. Like I don't think that their furniture is reasonably priced at all. At least Oklahoma City got a home goods in Oklahoma. I've not frequented a home goods that much, but the shit that they have at TJ Maxx furniture wise, but I'm like, Oh my God, this basket is like $30. Like, am I really going to pay $30 for this basket? I did. I needed it. What can I say? I gave in. These are the items, however, that I don't give into that I,
00:30:16
Speaker
shunton um so sometimes you might see in these places buddhist figures eastern religious iconography mostly um i also thought this could be an interesting point to kind of talk about some of the numbness we have to also western religious iconography and because i am not a religious person and i
00:30:43
Speaker
It's hypocritical to say that I don't participate in any kind of Western religious things because I definitely do because I participate in holidays here and so on and so forth.
The Impact of TJX on Designer Availability
00:30:55
Speaker
But I don't identify as being someone who practices religion or identifies as being Christian. I kind of get uncomfortable even when I see certain
00:31:05
Speaker
like crosses being like mass produced. I just don't know equally how to handle it and I think it's also only fair of me to talk about that uncomfortable commodification that I have with like Christian religion as I do with also Buddhism and other Eastern religions, but also because of Westernism, you know, that religion is not being as
00:31:31
Speaker
misinformed as others are. But Bianca also brought up a good point about boho chic. And I think only in recent years have we started to have a conversation about that aesthetic being capitalized as well. Right. So I also wanted to think about how these stores function as a whole because, I mean, like we said, you have great stuff. You can get there.
00:32:00
Speaker
A lot of it is affordable. But then, where does this all come from? So Gianna, we were talking about this whenever you were up here, but can you tell us what you learned about how these stores actually get this kind of mishmash of products?
00:32:16
Speaker
Yeah, so it's super weird and I really didn't know this or I guess just didn't think about it, but it really makes a lot of sense if you're paying attention to it. So essentially these discount stores get their inventory based off the net income of that area. So, and I did see a TikTok about it, this
00:32:42
Speaker
A woman found like a great find at a TJ Maxx and it was like a really nice designer piece, whatever it was, this piece of woman's clothing. And then another person stitched the video and was talking about how this actually isn't that surprising because you're like, what area are you shopping in? You are probably shopping in a more wealthy, high income area. So if you are on vacation somewhere in a wealthy area, maybe
00:33:12
Speaker
you like thrifting, like when I go on vacations, like, you know, I'll go clothes shopping, I'll go thrifting. She said, don't go thrifting, just like go to TJ Maxx in a wealthy area, essentially, and then you'll find higher designer pieces, potentially. The other interesting thing that I found out, and this was partly due to a conversation I had with Miss Juliana Poro, APT fashion expert, is that
00:33:40
Speaker
What these stores were designed to do is not happening. These stores are very much a part of mass production and fast fashion and is contributing to a lot of those consumer issues. Because a lot of these name brand, I'll say like clothing lines primarily, companies are
00:34:01
Speaker
making lower quality inventory and they're selling it specifically to these discount stores. So you're not actually finding a really good find or, oh my gosh, like I, you know, I found this Ralph Lauren sweater and it's only, you know, 20 bucks. Like it was most likely made to go to a discount store. And there are certain ways that you can tell, I guess, if you're really paying attention
00:34:25
Speaker
You have to look at the tags and look at the fabric. And that's just through my conversation with Juliana. But it's funny because I feel as though through the visual world and through your visual lens,
00:34:42
Speaker
That shouldn't come as a surprise. I feel as though I feel like we all kind of know what clothing we're expecting when we go into a TJ Maxx, just like how we know what we're expecting when we go into an Old Navy, or a Gap, or an Aunt Taylor loft. You get the vibe for what kind of inventory you are getting. And maybe your perspective is skewed about what you're getting at a TJ Maxx based on what kind of income area you live in.
00:35:11
Speaker
So it's really interesting, but I think that is going to come in handy to think about, particularly with our conversation about Ray Dunn and how people pay attention to what stores they're going to and how they track which stores they're going to and stare down employees to make sure that they're not hiding any Ray Dunn merchandise. So Gianna, do you own anything Ray Dunn?
00:35:39
Speaker
Don't I don't and I was telling Theban what he's like Oh, what's today's episode about and I said Ray done. Do you know who that is? And he was like, oh, no, I don't think and he was like, oh, yeah Yeah, cuz I think you stopped me from from buying something there. So I think it was a tea towel or something I was like, no, no. No, that's so funny. I do own a piece of Ray done ceramics I am
00:36:05
Speaker
have a little cat bowl for olivander and i actually have to say i love this bowl because it's really big it's like a really big deep water bowl and i had bought him a bowl i was just like literally looking for like a water bowl when i moved up here
00:36:21
Speaker
And I just saw this one and I was like, yeah, that's nice and big. Like I'm going to get it. And I had no idea that it was... Like I just didn't know about the phenomenon yet at that time. And...
00:36:36
Speaker
Then it broke. I dropped it and it broke. And I was like, shit, I need to go find this exact bowl because it's so big. I just, you know, because sometimes with cat bowls, because cats are a smaller animal, they get these like little tiny water bowls. And I just really liked that there was a nice big bowl of water for Ollivander. And so I have to say, I'm very happy with the size of this bowl. I did go back and I got another one and this one is pink. So maybe I have a like,
00:37:05
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe I have a cool rare find because it's a different color. I don't know. But now I now that I know about it, I do feel a little bit weird about having it. But it's okay. It's for all of me under and he doesn't mind as long as he's taken care of. Well, you know, if you like it like that, that's fine. It's a great size. I have to say it's a very great, great size pet bowl.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah, I also think the more that I learn about choogie and how it's entered our vocabulary, it has become interesting in the sense that people are almost only inherently critiquing female experiences. And I feel like
00:37:45
Speaker
That might be something good to acknowledge because what we are talking about essentially is the popular consumers for Ray Den are suburban white women, primarily. And Shuge might be entering some of our listener brains. And I think take that for what you will and how you use that in your vocabulary.
00:38:08
Speaker
because this has become such a huge cult following, it has become such a big part in our consumer and art world that we are going to critique it. But we are also critiquing these suburban white experiences. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about the woman herself. If you didn't know, Rae Dunn is a real life practicing artist. So I'm going to read
00:38:37
Speaker
from her about page on her website. Ray Dunn is from California and resides in the San Francisco Bay Area. She has a Bachelor of Arts degree in Industrial Design and worked in graphics and fashion for several years before discovering clay, which has now been her passion since 1994. Ray currently has a line of wares that is sold nationwide.
00:39:00
Speaker
Her inspiration comes from the earth and she finds beauty in simple shapes, natural forms, and found objects. Her work captures the simplicity and playfulness that are the cornerstones of her own life. A classical pianist, painter, and frequent world traveler, Ray has been influenced by many cultures and artistic pursuits.
00:39:21
Speaker
Ray's work is deceivingly straightforward. Quote, I don't think my art is a reaction against the complexity of life today, but rather a way for me to embrace the joyful, spontaneous elements of daily life that seem to be wanting in so much of what we do. Today, more than ever, I think we all need to slow down and grasp that which is honest, real, and personally satisfying. I try to express those feelings in all of my work.
00:39:50
Speaker
Her work is strongly influenced by the Japanese aesthetic of wabi-sabi, the beauty of things imperfect and permanent and incomplete. The artist said, quote, I don't strive for perfection in line and form in my work because for me, the balance I'm trying to achieve can't be represented in that way. The incompleteness and imperfection of my work is just part of the story.
00:40:16
Speaker
just as the absence of something in our lives can stir powerful feelings and show us the way to wholeness. Built entirely by hand, Ray's work often elicits a physical response, asked to be touched and provides a sense of reassurance that we have our feet on the ground. Quote, in my own way, I am driven to find that balance between expressing something that is deeply meaningful to me, and creating a sense of joy that might quietly touch the lives of others. So we're gonna
00:40:45
Speaker
unpack a lot of what's going on here. But I wanted to emphasize this point that was noted in a magenta article. Ray Dunn said, quote, I didn't go to art school and have never had any real art classes.
00:41:01
Speaker
I believe that because I was truly uninformed, it allowed me to make and break my own rules. Because I was allowed so much creative freedom as a child, it made me think that anything was possible, and I always knew that I could have some sort of creative career.
Challenges of Mass Production in Art
00:41:19
Speaker
I was always very much into handwriting, fonts, and words. Originally, I thought I wanted to be a graphic designer, but as I began doing that, everything started to shift towards technology and I quickly lost interest.
00:41:31
Speaker
Dunn is now in her late 50s and didn't start working with Clay until she was in her 30s. So Gianna, let's talk about what we think about Dunn's journey to finding a career as an artist and how her statement is kind of, let's unpack it here. Yeah, so obviously her journey to how she came to ceramics is totally lovely. I love that journey for you. I love that you don't have a formal training in ceramics
00:42:00
Speaker
That's totally fine. That's part of what we talk about on EPT. I'm not going to put academia up on this higher pedestal. You are clearly a skilled ceramicist. And looking at some of her original early handcrafted work, it clearly has a style. And that's totally great. Things to unpack in her statement I find really interesting. Because if you were just reading her concept, and let's say you didn't,
00:42:27
Speaker
No, like Ray Dunn is not an empire at this point. It's not a brand. It's not owned by this magenta company. Thinking about this concept is really, really interesting. And I think from an artist's perspective, it's eloquent. It's well-rounded. And the simplicity of it speaks through in the concept and in the writing of it. However, I don't know. Maybe imagine whatever that looks like to you as you're reading.
00:42:56
Speaker
But then break down that barrier and we know that Ray Dunn is this brand and has become commodified and mass produced. The concept doesn't fit the reality anymore to me. Which it's interesting that maybe we haven't tried to change that. And I'll talk about this a little bit.
00:43:20
Speaker
later and answering one of your other questions Bianca but I think harnessing this style of simple shapes and natural forms and found objects like sure I think that all comes through just fine but it's the
00:43:40
Speaker
It's talking about the lack of perfection that to me really doesn't make sense anymore because what you're doing is you actually perfected one of your designs and your concepts and it's now being sold and mass produced. So therein lies the irony. I think that idea, I don't think my art is a reaction against the complexity of life today.
00:44:08
Speaker
There's this sentiment across her statements that also don't add up with the kind of text that she provides across her pieces. I think that's an also really interesting comparison to think about.
00:44:24
Speaker
the words that she's using to describe her pieces and then in itself, the words that actually appear on the pieces themselves. Well, you know, it's interesting because I might actually think a little bit differently. Because if you finish that sentence, what she says is, but rather a way for me to embrace the joyful, spontaneous elements of daily life. So by marking everything, and that is kind of something that we do make fun of, you know, pen holder,
00:44:54
Speaker
pen holder, coffee cup, but coffee first, piggy bank, oink. Is that in a way pulling a Jean-Claude Christo by interrupting the everyday experience by slapping a label on it? Yeah, I guess there's something that's a really great point. There's something there that kind of is reading to me as the same. And that I don't mind. Like, has the aesthetic of it all
00:45:23
Speaker
kind of jumped off to an overwhelming point, yes, and we'll get to that. But let's separate that for a little bit. That part of it doesn't bother me. I might not like the aesthetic, but that part doesn't really, the concept doesn't bother me. That's really interesting. That's a great point, Gianna.
00:45:40
Speaker
It's really hard to separate those two things. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to get you guys to do, those of you listening, because it's really easy to laugh at what we're kind of talking about. And a lot of us listening might not like that aesthetic.
00:45:56
Speaker
But let's kind of put our bias aside a little bit and we'll get into that. So let's actually talk a little bit more about her work in particular. When she first started making pottery, her instructor would tell her to smooth out the fingerprints and the flaws that were made in her pots.
00:46:15
Speaker
She actually disagreed. She said, quote, I just liked it because it looked like someone made it rather than a machine. I've always been drawn to things that are not perfect, she explains. I love ready skin with freckles. To me, it has more character. I love wrinkly clothes, things that show life and usage. Very interesting statement. By this point, you've probably very much become familiarized with her aesthetic and her pottery.
00:46:44
Speaker
Um, it's stamped with these long handwritten letters, which is now licensed to Magenta. And this is actually sold exclusively at TJ Maxx Home Goods and Marshall. So this is an interesting point, like hearkening back to Gianna, what you're saying about specific companies making things for these TJX companies. Magenta exclusively sells them at places like TJ Maxx.
00:47:09
Speaker
Magenta is the company that manufactures Ray Dunn products. And the company in itself has seemed pretty baffled by the demand and they call it, quote unquote, passion for the goods. Quote, when we started partnering with Ray, we had no idea that this was going to become such a huge thing or even a collector's item. Really interesting verbiage thinking about pieces of art, right, as a collector.
00:47:35
Speaker
Every day the brand receives messages from Ray Dunn buyers asking them to authenticate her pottery pieces that are being bought and sold across the internet. There are actually replicas of Ray Dunn where the manufacturer has to be like, no, this is not authentic. It's not Ray Dunn. The senior marketing strategist at Magenta compares the replicas to like a copycat designer bag.
00:48:03
Speaker
you would have never thought that it would turn into something like this. And Magenta doesn't control the exact number of what products go to wear. So that part is actually up to TJX companies and how much they buy of a certain style. And that kind of controls maybe what's rare and what's not. Dunn says that it makes her really sad that people resell her work. She quote, wishes that she could sell more of her handmade stuff
00:48:34
Speaker
quote, when I do, I know that people are buying it and reselling it for hundreds of dollars more. And it really upsets me because I don't know, I feel like I'm being used. So back to what Gianna, you were talking about her kind of earlier pieces that you've seen on her website. She actually, I was reading an article that she had an Etsy page, which is no longer in service where you could buy her
00:48:58
Speaker
kind of original handmade items that are a different aesthetic from the Ray Dunn brand.
Authenticity in Mass-Produced Art
00:49:05
Speaker
And there were also a lot of photographs online and she has an Instagram where she posts photos in her own studio. And I really couldn't pick up on where the rest of these products are produced or how the production process actually takes place.
00:49:25
Speaker
The closest thing I got was that line from Magenta saying that they are the manufacturer. I find it so interesting that people come to Magenta to authenticate a piece of Ray Dunn when it's still just a manufactured product. So I know that there are copycats, but Ray Dunn herself cannot be making, hand-making every single piece that is distributed.
00:49:52
Speaker
across these companies. So I find that like authentic, the desire to have something authenticated by a mass production line is wild to me. Yes, so that is a very good segue into some of the things that I want to talk about. So
00:50:14
Speaker
And Bianca, in our document, you asked me like a question. What do we think about the mass produced imperfect ceramics? So we've talked about mass production and goods and artwork and fine art and in the art world. And that's fine. That's the thing that happens. You know, we can critique maybe some of the environmental impacts, the ethics of that. But breaking down in the sense of just like selling art and how it's made, it's a legit thing.
00:50:43
Speaker
I think perhaps the appeal for magenta to get involved with Redone is the artisanal perception that they can commodify and control the name and the aesthetic because the aesthetic really isn't going to change at this point.
00:51:07
Speaker
And if it does, it'll be like a whole different kind of like collection. Yeah, right. As used in a commercial sense. It's weird when you find Ray Dunn's website and you talked about her Etsy page a little bit, but
00:51:25
Speaker
It's like her artist's page. It's a website, it seems really outdated and it does have some of her shows listed on there and she's got her about page. And the last show listing there was in 2019 and it talked about
00:51:40
Speaker
some places where she was a guest speaker. And I thought that was interesting, just that time stamp that maybe within even the last couple of years that she's really, unfortunately, I mean, it is really sad, kind of lost that ability to be able to participate in true artisanal ways now as a maker. But when you go to Magenta's Ray Duntab,
00:52:08
Speaker
you can shop the Heritage Collection, the Classic Collection, or the Artisan Collection. So with some of the tone that has taken shape through this primary company that, you know, manufactures this radon name and product,
00:52:31
Speaker
I get a vibe, a feeling or a sense that, okay, instead of profiting off the genius male artist, we are going to do what we do to women instead and profit off of the gentle female artisan.
00:52:48
Speaker
And there are a couple of things that I want to point out here. First, I'm not insinuating that Rae Dunn herself doesn't have any control over her own image or her brand or, or her designs. Like I only know what I know and we only see what we see. And from what I have read in interviews with her, she does seem like a very soft spoken person. That's how she's mostly described. She seems like she's very calm person, has a very calm presence.
00:53:14
Speaker
and gives off a very balanced energy. And I think that is reflected in the inception of her ceramics that led to this brand. I do think all those things are accurate. It's just the monster that she has created, which is a direct quote from her, that has taken shape in this really interesting way, which is why we are doing this kind of case study of it. So however, with all that in mind,
00:53:45
Speaker
I think that that's an energy that people are comfortable with and that companies are comfortable in investing in. And also why her work is very popular in Midwest and Southern regions of the States too. So I think those are some key factors. Like the way that she is portraying herself is totally fine and totally lovely. And her inception of, you know,
00:54:10
Speaker
her Ray Dunn design is all totally fine. But I think that there are some key reasons as why this this has been so popular and why it's been commodified. Yeah, that's really interesting. In light of that, let's get into what we now associate.
00:54:26
Speaker
the brand Rae Dunn with and I couldn't find too much about Dunn's background in the artist herself other than you know she grew up in California and when Gianna and I started thinking about this you know about her brand in particular or the brand and reading about its cult following we had a certain
00:54:49
Speaker
perception about the brand itself. Like we didn't really know that Rae Dunn was an actual person before doing this kind of investigation. And we know her consumers and Rae Dunn as a standalone brand, as a standalone identity sounds like something that would appeal to white Southern ladies. And I think that in itself is a really
00:55:16
Speaker
I don't know thought provoking idea that Ray Dunn the brand could be something that's profitable from Ray Dunn the person. I just think those two items are really interesting.
00:55:32
Speaker
Within the past few years, we've all become very mysteriously aware of these associated peoples of the brand. And these peoples are known as Ray Dunn Hunters, the Ray Dunners, or the Ray Dunnies, among, you know, other nicknames.
00:55:51
Speaker
They are basically Rae Dunn superfans and their main mode of communication is Facebook groups. There are hundreds of them both with national and regional names like Rae Dunn Newbies, Rae Dunn Addicts, Girls Just Wanna Have Done, and even What Have I Done. On these pages there are
00:56:12
Speaker
you know, over 25,000 members. The hunters trade secrets and tips for scoring the most coveted pieces of Ray Dunn merchandise. A lot of this has come to light since videos went viral on TikTok where TJX employees talked about quote unquote the Ray Dunn women who enter the store and buy all of the Ray Dunn products and then upsell them.
00:56:36
Speaker
Because of the price point that these items usually sell at in store, there is a huge market to upsell these products. Some people have noted online that a $17 oink canister, like in the shape of a little pig, can be sold for $250.
00:56:55
Speaker
There are a ton of examples like this. People are selling things for up to $1,500. This is a game. It's a type of hunt to find rare pieces. A Vice article reads, quote, therein lies the brand's success with, quote, live, laugh, love.
00:57:16
Speaker
The notion of doing the most with less. It gives buyers a price accessible gold star on the forehead with an influx of one word affirmations and reminders for self-care or valuing family.
00:57:34
Speaker
Although the latter of which lives in a very his and hers hetero traditional nuclear family zone, Rae Dunn is about making you and only you feel seen in your attempts to try. I thought that was a really interesting quote from Vice. Like Gianna said, Dunn the artist admits that she created a monster with her now ubiquitous aesthetic.
00:58:00
Speaker
She claims it was an accident. Quote, I never intended on becoming a brand, much less creating this weird phenomenon. As thankful as she is for the enthusiastic support, she says, quote, it also makes me sad that people fight over it. And people will go in and buy everything and resell it. Unfortunately, she tells us there's nothing she can do about that.
00:58:23
Speaker
after designing the pieces done essentially has no part in the production of the magenta lines meaning that she doesn't have control over where the pieces are sold and you know who buys them but also much like an artist and i i don't mean to interrupt here i think it's interesting i totally get what she means because she has this super specific following and it's created this
00:58:51
Speaker
also kind of competitive and sometimes unkind culture. Right. And it's hard to like be the mother of that. And I get that. But so many people view art as an investment and people do buy that art for different kinds of financial backing and be able to sell that in the future. And oh, like, you know, what is my return going to be on that in five years? Oh, it's going to go up. Like those are all common practices in the art world. But I understand
00:59:21
Speaker
this this culture has put on one of these ceramic pieces is not the best right but that you're so right Gianna and we talked about this in our art market episode this is definitely brought up in the documentary the price of everything which we recap in that episode and I can't remember who it was but that artist who sees his work maybe maybe it was Rauschenberg who sees his work
00:59:49
Speaker
go for millions of dollars at an auction and he was telling the buyer, what did you do? What did you do? And the buyer was like, well, I made you famous. And so it's just like, it's such an, it's so wild to see this happen before our eyes. And I think maybe that's something that I'm struggling with is like, we're not used to seeing this necessarily.
01:00:12
Speaker
happen right at the outset with a living artist we're used to talking about this type of discussion in a very historical context where an artist gets famous after their death and that's clearly not the case that's happening here but you're so right in that you know when artists create work many of the times they're not creating it for themselves they're creating it and it is being sold to other people and
01:00:38
Speaker
In the case of free ports, you know, there's so much that's just like an investment and it is to be held in storage.
Consumer Culture and Artistic Value
01:00:47
Speaker
And she can feel about that however she wants. But I think that's one thing that you do.
01:00:54
Speaker
have to grapple with as an artist. Like I am critiquing the female experience in the consumer world, but yet I am wanting people to buy and consume my artwork because I deserve to have also a living, you know, paying job and be a contributing person in society. But also, you know, I'm sure the gorilla girls aren't too happy that they're
01:01:17
Speaker
Feminist post rooms are just shoved in the feminist wing in the art museum like those are all things that we have to deal with right and
01:01:25
Speaker
hopefully like with conversations like this you know we are just bringing that to light but but yeah it's like this is like this is how it is a little bit right right and i appreciate her coming out and like offering this statement so i think that's like the biggest thing it's like yeah she wants people to treat each other with kindness and it is wild the stories that are taking place inside like a tj max where people are not being kind to one another and i think that's
01:01:51
Speaker
you know, that's a very unfortunate problem. And I can imagine like how she feels about that. And she says, I'm not trying to be something fancy or different. My work is me. So, you know, it's with the intent behind it. Wholeheartedly believe the intent and the story and the inception of it. It's just wild that it doesn't fit the concept anymore. But the consumers
01:02:16
Speaker
who are buying this aren't really like connecting those dots. I also think the way in which some of these women in particular really idolize her and she has talked about how like in the beginning I think she was teaching ceramic classes or she would people come to her studio or she would have these interactions and these people would just start crying. And I did look at her Instagram
01:02:44
Speaker
kind of going down the rabbit hole and she posted this picture of herself in the studio kind of cute staged picture and she was in a Ray Dunn t-shirt that said imperfectly perfect something like that and the caption was talking about how
01:02:58
Speaker
I'm not a perfect person. None of us are. But in the caption, all these women were like, you are so perfect. Ray Dunn, this is an absolutely beautiful photo. Like there was nothing about you that's not perfect. We are so like past the point. Right. And I wonder how many people I mean, clearly, there's a large chunk of her consumers that know that she's a living person. But I wonder how many people at first just think of it as a brand. I don't know. I mean, I'm not involved in that scene. So
01:03:28
Speaker
Surely, it's a well-discussed matter. She has a new book. That kind of stuff. If you want to be like APG spy enjoying one of these Facebook groups, you go for it. Oh my gosh. You should play jokes. The crazy thing about these Facebook
01:03:44
Speaker
groups is that they're supposed to be there to help each other you know find the best deal but it is some sabotage bullshit these women will go tell other people that oh you can find all this read done stuff at this location and it's totally fake and they're just they're they're giving them false information so they can get all the best stuff for themselves right there's a quote that I want to read and thinking about this like fandom quote
01:04:11
Speaker
It's kind of like people that collect Beanie Babies or Louis Vuitton purses or vintage shoes. This is from a Ray Dunn hunter and TikToker. Some people don't get it, but if you get it, you get it. And I think that that's honestly a great quote to think about. We all have fandoms that we're a part of that we would do anything for, but it's interesting because of the consumer base, the perception that we get of this
01:04:39
Speaker
This fan this fandom in particular And even you know as we're talking through this it's like who would verify a ray-done piece of pottery well if I purchased You know something that was from Gucci on the real real
01:04:55
Speaker
I'm happy to know that it's verified, but in the end, does it matter? It's so wild to think about this thing that you get from TJ Maxx and wanting it to be verified, but in any other circumstance, I would probably do the same thing for something else. Like, oh, I'd want to verify that this is an authentic piece from a designer brand. People do that all the time, but I don't know why that concept is disassociated from this brand in particular.
01:05:21
Speaker
You know, and as time goes on, I think collector exhibitions are wildly fascinating. Yeah. And I've already seen exhibitions where my iPhone, my 2000s lime green camera has been in an exhibition and I cannot wait for the day that Ray Dunn is put in this lineage of, you know, Francoma fiesta where I know Ray Dunn. Right.
01:05:48
Speaker
Right, totally, totally. It's really, really interesting.
01:05:52
Speaker
super but I don't know I found this conversation wildly fascinating and you know if you have a ray done you can put it right next to your your fake Jeff Koons bookend you know dog balloon the dog balloon that you got at a museum gift shop I did see Bianca I was at TJ Maxx this was a while ago and I forgot to send you a picture of it but it was a balloon giraffe and I was like I see what you did there
01:06:19
Speaker
Okay, so I went to Spirit Halloween this weekend, and they had a balloon dog costume, and I was like, a Jeff Koons costume? Even though a balloon dog is like an actual thing, and Jeff Koons didn't invent the balloon dog. But in my head, I was like, mm-hmm, it's like Jeff Koons. There is no escaping.
01:06:46
Speaker
Neither is there any escaping from the APG cult. So if anybody, if any of our listeners are Jenner or if someone has, you know, found their way into the depths of a Jenner's Facebook group, you know, help a sister out. Let us know what it's like on that side of Facebook. Totally. Well, any other thoughts for today's episode, Gianna?
01:07:09
Speaker
I think I'm all thought out, you know? I don't think I have anything left. I hear that. Well, if you have any thoughts, please share them with us. You can join our Art Pop Tarts Facebook group. You can always DM us across our social media at Art Pop Talk. You can email us at artpoptalk at gmail.com. And if you liked this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts and rate us. Leave us a nice little review telling us
01:07:37
Speaker
You know how much you love this conversation. And I think with that, Gianna, we will talk to you all on Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Bye. Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:08:18
Speaker
you