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S3E10 Who?! Navigating the World of ART Law
63 Plays21 days ago
Summary
In this insightful episode, Whitney talks with Marla Neufeld, an ART attorney and former intended parent, about the complex world of Assisted Reproductive Technology law. Focusing on surrogacy in Florida, they discuss common misconceptions, the emotional and financial challenges intended parents face, and the crucial role of clear communication and strong legal support throughout the process. Marla’s personal experience as an intended parent adds a unique layer to the conversation, highlighting the importance of empathy and understanding in her legal practice. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the legal side of building families through surrogacy.
Takeaways
-Marla is an ART attorney and former intended parent.
-Personal experiences in infertility shape legal practices.
-Communication is key in the surrogacy process.
-Florida has unique surrogacy laws requiring medical need.
-Surrogacy is not the same as adoption in legal terms.
-Financial transparency is crucial for intended parents.
-Emotional support is vital for all parties involved.
-Legal agreements should be handled by experienced attorneys.
-Intended parents should be open-minded about options.
-Estate planning is important for intended parents.
Links
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Surrogacy Law and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everyone, and welcome to Me, You, and Who. Today's episode dives into the fascinating world of assisted reproductive technology law with a special focus on surrogacy.
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm joined by Marla Neufeld, an experienced art attorney and former intended parent. Today, we discuss the legal intricacies of surrogacy, particularly in Florida, while uncovering how Marla's personal experiences have shaped her professional approach.
00:00:28
Speaker
Get ready for a conversation packed with insights on common surrogacy myths, financial considerations, emotional hurdles, and the importance of communication and legal guidance throughout this unique and special journey.
Guest Backgrounds and Initial Thoughts
00:00:41
Speaker
It was a wonderful episode and full of all kinds of information, so please enjoy. Me, you, and who? Who knew it would take more than two people to have a baby in a world where infertility is no longer a taboo topic.
00:00:58
Speaker
This podcast will take you through all of the different aspects of surrogacy and egg donation through the lens of many who walk this journey in different ways. My name is Whitney Hall. and I am a two time surrogate now turned surrogacy coordinator for egg donor and surrogate solutions.
00:01:15
Speaker
the very agency I used when I chose to carry for two amazing families. With this podcast, it is our goal to help guide and support you as you learn about what it takes to grow a family in an alternative way, as well as hear inspiring and beautiful stories of how this path has changed lives forever. We can't wait for you to hear about just one more way happy families are created every day.
00:01:44
Speaker
Hi, Marla. I am so glad you're here. Whitney, it's so great to see you. We've worked together for so many years and we've never really met face-to-face, even virtually. So this is awesome.
00:01:55
Speaker
Exactly. It's so fun. so fun. Absolutely. I am just excited because we have worked together and I, um you know, just one professional to another within this industry, it's always fine to be.
00:02:08
Speaker
to chat and and speak and you know, just learn about more than just, you know, those fun exchanging of of emails.
Marla Neufeld's Transition to ART Law
00:02:16
Speaker
So yes, yes you are a how we work together is you are an art attorney.
00:02:22
Speaker
What for, you know, kind of the listener, what does that mean? And how did you even get into such a niche practice? Yes, so ART is an acronym for Assisted Reproductive Technology.
00:02:35
Speaker
i am an art attorney licensed in the state of Florida. And how I got into this area of law is I'm actually a former intended parent.
00:02:45
Speaker
So I have twin 10 year old boys. you're in the thick of it, mama. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know they were brought to me through the assistance of a gestational surrogate. So while actually my surrogate was pregnant,
00:03:02
Speaker
I started going to conferences and learning as much as I could. and what's unique about me, I guess, is I work at a very large, like 300 person law firm. And so I basically approached the partners of the firm to start this practice area at my firm, Greenspoon Martyr.
00:03:17
Speaker
So I handle all the assisted reproductive technology legal work at Greenspoon. And they it was amazing. They were so supportive to allow me to start the practice group there. And I'm just so grateful for what I went through and that I can do this professionally now. So that's what brings me to this world.
00:03:33
Speaker
Oh, my gosh How do you? I mean, that personal experience alone, i know, i'm is I know can be so helpful when going through, you know, whatever part of this industry, but how do you feel like your own personal experience of being kind of on that, you know, part of that process, how has that, you know, kind of shaped how you practice in ma cho in art law?
00:03:57
Speaker
I mean, I think one of the main things is having been a former intended parent and just having gone through my own years of infertility It's just kind of like that horrible feeling of always waiting. You're always waiting for the next period or the doctor's appointment. So I know that when somebody going through this process is at the legal stage, they've waited a ah long time already. so What I always aim to do with while maintaining like good decor and you know professionalism is I try to do things so that they're not waiting for me.
00:04:31
Speaker
And so I always try to move things forward as quickly as possible and not delay because I know like it's just painful um to have to keep waiting and, you know, hopefully never miss a cycle because of legal delays. So I always try and keep that in mind. I think that's one of the big things that I learned from my own experience that I bring to the table, setting aside just understanding what it's like to be in an intended parent's shoes. And not that I was a surrogate, but I can appreciate what mine went through. So I always try to keep everything in mind of what I went through.
00:05:01
Speaker
oh for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. I always love to say, you know, we, we, we definitely, we want to move as fast as we can, but we've got to dot those I's and cross those T's. Yes, for sure.
00:05:13
Speaker
But I always try to make it a priority. i always try to get back to people same day, like things like that, so that we're not like sitting on something too long and, missing time in the cycle. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And that communication just in any part of the process is so
Legal Aspects and Misconceptions of Surrogacy
00:05:27
Speaker
key. and then especially with legal, that's always so helpful and wonderful. I mean, I really feel like communication through the whole process is one of the biggest, like most important things and where I see the most issues, which we can talk about more as we go through the podcast, but just communication between all the parties really makes the process so smooth. I i find that's um an important part of it.
00:05:48
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, okay. You mentioned, you know, you you're in Florida. What are, what would you say are maybe some of the unique things that, you know, are part of being in art law in Florida versus, you know, just other States in the country?
00:06:06
Speaker
Sure. One of the first unique parts to our surrogacy statue in Florida is that we have a medical need requirement within our surrogacy statue. So while it's always kind of like a best practice that clinics follow that there should be some medical basis for proceeding with a surrogate, we actually have it as part of a legal requirement. So the clinic will have to make a determination that the intended parents either cannot gestate to term or pregnancy would be a risk to the mother or the fetus.
00:06:36
Speaker
So it's a very broad standard. There's no specific examples of what need to be in any of those three categories, but we always do have to have some form of, you know, a basis of like a medical requirements. That's something to think about with Florida.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We also have we have a legal path to parenthood in Florida for any type of intended parent. You can be married, single, not married.
00:07:02
Speaker
You can also use donor egg, donor sperm or a fully donated embryo. What you have to keep in mind in Florida is you do have to proceed under different subsections of our law.
00:07:14
Speaker
If you're married using one of the parents' genetics, you handle the process under our surrogacy statute. you're not married, single, or using donor embryo, fully donated embryo, you proceed under a subsection of our adoption statute, and it's called a pre-planned adoption.
00:07:33
Speaker
ah So that being said, it's important that anyone considering surrogacy in Florida consult with an attorney licensed in Florida, because those two processes can differ depending on where you file your process, where you know where you're filing in which county.
00:07:48
Speaker
um But generally speaking, and you know where I handle everything, at the end of the day, the parents process will be very similar. It requires some additional documentation at the very beginning of the contract stage if you're going under the pre-planned adoption.
00:08:02
Speaker
um But there is a legal way to proceed would for any type of intended parent in Florida. Okay. Okay. So going on kind of, you know, and... Forgive me for, you know, not understanding it in the in the full legal spectrum. But I know like a lot of times, you know, people will say like i know for like for me as a surrogate, you know, people would ask me about the process and they would say, wait, so are the intended parents, you know, adopting the baby? right I would always say, no, no, no no no This is their baby.
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah. you know Yeah. tell Tell me a little bit more about that under the statutes and all that fun. So our surrogacy statute, i mean, there's no reference to adoption. There's no ability for the surrogate to change her mind.
00:08:45
Speaker
There's no consents needed at birth. Under the pre-planned adoption, while it's called, it is within a subsection of our adoption statute, it's in no way treated like what you'd think of as like a typical adoption. So also with the pre-planned adoption, there's no legal ability for the surrogate to change her mind unless it's her genetic child, which in the case of gestational surrogacy, which is what you and I handled together,
00:09:12
Speaker
won't cut it Yeah, absent a breach of the contract where she had intercourse at a time she wasn't supposed to and got pregnant on her own. So under both statutes, the parents are not adopting their baby. The court process actually is called an affirmation of parental rights.
00:09:31
Speaker
Other under the pre-planned adoption, we are handling it within a subsection of the adoption. It's not what you think of as the traditional like birth mother scenario where you're waiting for after the birth to sign anything um to, you know, you're not waiting to be discharged until the surrogate agrees that you can, you know, take the baby home.
00:09:49
Speaker
and At least where I handle everything in Broward County, which is where I am and where I file all the court proceedings, regardless of where the surrogate's located in Florida, Everything I need signed from the surrogate is done before she's even pregnant.
00:10:02
Speaker
So the parent or the parents can be you know rest assured that there's no discretion of the court or the surrogate to have to you know give up any parental rights to confirm the parental rights of the parents.
00:10:13
Speaker
Sure. Sure. So basically when you hear the word adopt, like you said, it's that subsection. So don't be concerned. exactly I don't want to pay. I always explain it to the intended parents because I don't want them to be surprised or, um you know, taken aback if they ever see this, really you know, look at the statute or, you know, when they see my pleadings wait, what's that? So I always like to kind of explain it, but also, you know, rest assured that is a clear path to parenthood for anybody, even under the pre-planned adoption. And there's no discretion of the court or the surrogate to.
00:10:50
Speaker
finalize the parental rights of the parents. It's just kind of how we handle it here in Florida. Sure. Absolutely. It's, you know, just that fun, like, Hey, we'll stick this here. Legal steps. Yeah. exactly yeah But like I said, it's no, it it's not like what you think of with a traditional adoption where you're, you know, you still have the same communication with the doctors and the surrogate, the contracts essentially identical.
00:11:13
Speaker
Um, again, no, no revocation period or anything like that. Sure. Sure. And that's just in certain situations of, you know, if it's a donor sperm donor egg, uh, not, it would have to be single parent, and an unmarried couple or, or a donor embryo.
00:11:30
Speaker
So saa that's what puts us into the preplanned. Okay. Okay. That makes, that makes a ton of sense. And I know it's super helpful because I, like I said, when some, when people see that word, um you know, there can sometimes be pause, but speaking of that, you know,
00:11:47
Speaker
like I said, you someone, you know, there's, there's kind of all of those stuff so fun questions that come whenever, you know, you're going through this process and you hear kind of those, you know, myths and you think of, you know, some fun lifetime movie in Hollywood and yeah whatever, what would you say are maybe some of those like common myths that you've encountered, you know, being an in art law?
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. it can be a very scary and overwhelming process. yeah And for most people, i mean, I know because it's like the first time most people ever have to deal with a lawyer.
00:12:21
Speaker
and so there's just a lot of it's a lot of new situations and creates a lot of fears and concerns. So, I mean, some of the myths just questions that I get asked quite frequently is just parents are nervous that the surrogate can keep the baby.
00:12:37
Speaker
That's probably the top question that I get asked. we And we just kind of addressed it is under Florida law. The answer is no. um It would be akin to essentially kidnapping if the surrogate were to keep the baby in Florida. So the law you know is very clear. It's not her child.
00:12:55
Speaker
yes um And you know what we do in Florida, and we're taking one huge step back, every state has different laws regarding surrogacy, which I know you know, but it's just for the listeners. So the process to ah confirm the parental rights of the parent or the parents differs from state to state.
00:13:12
Speaker
Florida, no matter which way you're doing it, pre-planned or surrogacy statute, is a post-birth state. So we get a court order right after the baby's born. And that court order is what I would send to vital records to issue the birth certificate.
00:13:25
Speaker
That being said, I always also get a pre-birth order. It's not sent to vital records for the birth certificate, but it's immensely helpful to just make a very smooth process at the hospital. So absolutely where I'm going with this is ah to alleviate the concerns of can the surrogate keep the baby is I always send the pre-birth order to to you, the agency and to the hospital.
00:13:48
Speaker
So it's really like a legal heads up that this is who the parent or the parents are going to be. This is the surrogate. So we just ensure that there's no issues or um with access the parents accessing the baby, being discharged, getting banded to the extent possible. So that really helps keep the process smooth. Yeah.
00:14:08
Speaker
Let's see. I mean, there's conceptions of like, this is only for the rich and famous or women are just doing this to, you know, save their figure, be able to drink, um you know, um party hard. But like I talked about, you know, at the beginning, the law um in Florida requires a medical need. So it's it's a really rare circumstance where someone's coming to this process just for the heck of it. Like this is for most a last resort or like very end of the road or need like medically necessary to proceed.
00:14:41
Speaker
And as far as like the whole, this is just like for the rich and famous. I mean, of course it is an expensive process, but I represent so many people from so many different financial standpoints and walks of life. And there are resources available to help offset the cost, but of course it's important like to speak with you, with guys at the agency to have a fair rough budget because you obviously don't want to get into a process where it could put financial strain on anybody, which just makes the whole process more stressful.
00:15:13
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. its Specifically around the financial piece of it, I think one of the things that I'm so proud of um our agency is, you know, we we are very upfront and transparent about this is how much the cost is. And I know you are very upfront about this is going to be the cost of contracts. This is going to be the cost of PDO. This is, you know, just all of those things and having that.
00:15:38
Speaker
I think it's really important to know what I think is so cool about you guys, which I recently learned is that you will allow parents to just kind of join your waitlist without making a financial commitment, which I think is really interesting.
00:15:49
Speaker
um So you can just kind of see what's out there without having to, because, look ah you know, many agencies do require some funds down to start looking so. and Anything helps. and yeah But I do think it's important that the parents know in advance how much like the budget is, but how much they're going to have to put into escrow. Because I always find that when that's not discussed in advance, and then they're told, oh, you have to put base comp for the surrogate plus plus plus, whatever it is, like, they're like, wait,
00:16:19
Speaker
It's like hard to wrap your brain around it. So it's always helpful to know in advance kind of what those obligations will be.
Emotional and Psychological Aspects of Surrogacy
00:16:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Are there any other myths or are there any other kind of, you know, encounters that you've had that are just so unique to the seat that you sit in?
00:16:37
Speaker
I mean, even just having gone through it personally, and I know a lot of parents have these concerns, just will I connect the baby and will I feel, you know, like detached from the process, but I know having gone through it personally, and when, when the baby arrives, it's just like this most amazing thing. And you,
00:16:56
Speaker
it all just as part of your journey, like the surrogacy portion of it and just kind of their story. And it's like an amazing, really, truly amazing thing. And I'm still in touch with my surrogate now, know, almost 11 years, almost 11 years later.
00:17:08
Speaker
um so it's very cool. And what I think is really great, even even though it's not a legal requirement in Florida, is that the parties undergo the psychological evaluation at the very, very beginning of the process before there's even a contract,
00:17:22
Speaker
And I s think talking about these concerns about like concerns about bonding, how do you tell your child how they're conceived and born? Like, I think all that just really helps in the mental prep so that you feel connected. And a great thing about surrogacy and how this differs from and a true attritional adoption is that the parent or the parents have the ability to really be involved in the process.
00:17:47
Speaker
to speak to the doctors, to you know understand what the medical records are saying, to speak to their surrogate, which you you really can't do in ah in a traditional adoption. So that really helps feel connected. Like you'll get to, if you can make it to appointments, you know hopefully be at the delivery. And yeah um so you really feel super involved in the process.
00:18:09
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are some of the tickets. Those are the big ones. And it's so fun that, you know, your your journey now, you know, almost 11 years later, and you still get to be part of this, you know, process and have this celebration of baby porn.
00:18:27
Speaker
I know. It's so nice. It's so exciting. And um it's It's just truly is a journey. like You hear that word a lot in this, this what we do. But it's the only descriptor. It really is.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, it just really is. there's There's different stages of it and you you know kind of look back where you start and it's just, wow, like how far you can come in this process. It's really cool.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. What would you say are maybe just, you know, some of your, like one of your favorite things about doing what you do?
00:19:01
Speaker
I mean, the obvious is that helping people so we have a family. I mean, just getting those, the baby pictures at the end of the day yes is just like the most amazing thing. Cause it's like this real tangible thing that I helped like a tiny sliver in that process. yeah um So from the IP side, the IP meaning intended parent, that's, you know, obviously a really joyous component of what I do. And then I love representing surrogates too.
00:19:31
Speaker
And for, you know, while I'm in Florida, there's not really much to do with the birth stage because it's typically handled by the intended parents attorney. That depends on the state, just getting them through the contract where, you know, like I said, it might be someone's first time ever dealing with a lawyer,
00:19:47
Speaker
reading a 70 page agreement, um just getting them from like, just that feeling of like, whoa, what is all this to feeling confident and comfortable and understanding.
00:19:58
Speaker
That's also really a great process where we kind of, I feel like they're like on their way and like set with a good understanding of what they're, you know, what their job is like from a legal standpoint. Yeah. It's, you know, it's so easy to talk about all of the fun and the good and the exciting part of the whole process, but obviously, know, all of this has some, some bumps along the way sometimes. And, you know, I know, unfortunately, sometimes you have to be a part of that. What would you say, or maybe kind of some of the the harder parts of job that you have?
00:20:30
Speaker
I mean, sometimes the process doesn't work. And that's obviously very hard for everybody involved. I will never lose sight of how hard it is to not have a successful pregnancy, just even from my own experience of having like multiple miscarriages. And that's just hard.
00:20:46
Speaker
And it's hard emotionally. it's hard financially, because parents many times have to start over. So I always try to be mindful of that. so if we ever have to do a new agreement, i always try to be mindful to help with costs on that because it does really impact having to start over.
00:21:05
Speaker
um So that's tough. And then from that obvious point of just like it not working where I really do sympathize with everybody involved, including the surrogate. i mean, surrogates are excited for this and it's just it's just a you know disappointment to you know how, when it doesn't work. And yeah obviously it's no one's fault. It's just, ah it's a tough situation. It's just sometimes hard to get pregnant.
00:21:29
Speaker
yeah um And I'd say another hard part is seeing when on rare circumstances, when the relationship kind of breaks down between the parties.
00:21:42
Speaker
And what I mentioned at the very beginning of the show is just communication is such an important part of it. And I find that most issues really come down to just some form of miscommunication between the parties, either the parents not communicating enough, communicating too much, surrogates not communicating enough.
00:22:02
Speaker
So I think what's great when the agency is involved is kind of, you can't know how the relationship will be to a T because things evolve, but just kind of getting a sense of where the relationship is kind of expected to be.
00:22:16
Speaker
So, cause not every match is like, everyone has different expectations. There's some parents that make it a little more clinical, a little more business-like, and that wouldn't be a good match for a surrogate who wants to be super communicative and involved. And it can cause resentment, which just kind of like,
00:22:34
Speaker
deteriorates as the process comes, goes along. So so really um that's hard to see. And it's also tough from a legal perspective when a surrogate is pregnant and going through this process, because this is not a real estate transaction. You just can't like she's, this is a person, this is a person carrying a child.
00:22:57
Speaker
It's very delicate. And a lot of people come at this just, not a lot, but people can sometimes look at it like more if it's too transactional, like that gets a little tricky because it's while it is a contract and it's enforceable, there's like steps to take and think about before going full on on like demand letters and all this stuff, which again is a rare thing and not the norm, but I've been doing this for a long time. So I just, I've seen a lot.
00:23:27
Speaker
ah So it's always helpful with a great agency involved to kind of be the moderator and take a lot off the parties to have to like, like when we're working with your agency, the parents and the surrogate aren't talking directly about money, which is helpful because like that can get like a little tough and tricky.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so whatever like little steps like that, just to help it smooth, stay smooth and communicate smoothly, like just is so helpful for the whole process. Yes, yes.
00:23:59
Speaker
Well, and you're so right. it's It's that, I mean, yes, at the end of the day, it is, there is a contract. There is black and white paper. There is no gray. There is, I mean, it is a contract, but it is a contract with people.
00:24:12
Speaker
And people are, I mean, and and there are nuances and there are, it's not just, oh, my, you know, my neighbor is now using my fence and whatever, yeah or whatever. Yes, there's definitely like,
00:24:27
Speaker
no pun or pun intended, baby steps to take if there is an issue um before you just go full on, like bring in the lawyers. And I actually encourage that. Like, I don't want to be involved in litigation or demand letters, you know, like have the agency help moderate, maybe bring in the psychologist to discuss, you know, have ah something moderated and,
00:24:48
Speaker
Many times just kind of patching over like some communication issues goes a really, really long way in the process. Absolutely. Absolutely. i i mean, yeah i I do. I always...
00:24:59
Speaker
I always say, you know, hi as an agency and as a coordinator, you know, like I want you guys to stay in happy lala baby land. Like nobody needs to get up in arms about, you know, i don't know the amount of caffeine intake or know just whatever it may be. Like, yeah, it's tell me what's up. Tell me all of the things. And it is great to have that third party, you know, as part of that process, because, you know,
00:25:23
Speaker
When you you don't necessarily have an agency involved, then I think you're right. falls a lot on the parties. Yeah, it just And a lot of miscommunication can happen. Yeah, for sure. So that can be like a stickier situation, but, you know, many times it can be smoothed over. I mean, in in my all my years of practice, knock on wood, I've never had anything be litigated. This is not like...
00:25:47
Speaker
what you see in the movies. i mean, of course, anything can happen. I don't want to hear anybody wrong. that's like, that's kind of like the myth that this is like a running off with the baby and, you know, the things that you hear, it read about maybe like the news or whatever. So,
00:26:02
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I know we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but is there anything, you know, just obviously sitting in, you know, just from your perspective of, being an intended parent and then, you know, as an art attorney, is there anything that you wish that intended parents or gestational carriers would know prior to, you know coming to you prior to that contract phase or as part of the contract Yeah.
Importance of Protocols and Legal Representation
00:26:31
Speaker
So think a lot of it just my, you know, my suggestion is to stick with the guidelines and don't cut corners. Like, so for example, and I know that your agency wouldn't allow that, but for example, Florida doesn't require two lawyers in the process for the contract, but it's such a best practice and um so important. And
00:26:53
Speaker
It's not as common with an agency, but like self matches and you see like sisters caring, things like that. Like they go, I don't need a lawyer. It's my sister. Or, you know, even in this case, like if someone feels comfortable just signing off, it's just a corner not to cut.
00:27:07
Speaker
um so I think just understanding that the contract really is an important step. not to be brushed off or, you know, something that requires focus because you don't want to be surprised down the road because it addresses so many different things. So I think just going into it, knowing like embrace like the help with the lawyers.
00:27:25
Speaker
It's like a team effort here. um And that it be handled by experienced reproductive attorneys. It shouldn't be your real estate friend who lawyer friend who can handle it for you.
00:27:40
Speaker
Those are nightmare situations, which I actually won't even take the case and opposite of that because it's too important um to just not be represented by someone experienced in this area.
00:27:52
Speaker
They just, I'm sure they're very smart people, but they just don't what to look for. Right. And how to counsel. So that is an important thing to think about. And I think it's important for everybody to understand. I know that your agency kind of counsels everybody when they're being matched, but just to kind of make sure you feel comfortable with who you're choosing as your surrogate.
00:28:13
Speaker
As far as like seeing eye to eye on a lot of the big topics like I know it's hard to think about or even talk about like abortion and selective reduction and absolutely even like, you know, vaccination preferences, because a parent can't force a surrogate. This is not just in Florida. This is really anywhere you're doing this. Like you can't force a surrogate to do or not do something pertaining to her body.
00:28:36
Speaker
You know, the contract might have remedies if she goes against what she's committed to do. but a judge will never make her have an abortion or make her do an embryo transfer. Like you just can't force somebody, it's their body.
00:28:50
Speaker
um So I think that just going into it's important for an intended parent to really think about what is important to them and make sure they match accordingly. And that'll just help the process be very smooth too, because they're not forcing a round peg into a square hole or whatever the expression is, you know, like they're working with somebody that's going to see align as much as possible. and And I know parents want to move forward like yesterday, but not to just choose someone. If they if there's like some a sticking point like that that they just don't feel comfortable with, um it wouldn't be the right match because you don't want to worry that if, God forbid, something comes up where you would ever want the right to abort, the surrogate wouldn't do it and make her feel pressured to do something she's not comfortable doing.
00:29:34
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. and yeah mean And that's just way prior to contracts that all of that needs to be Yeah, that's, i count which only as it should, because that could make a contract fall apart.
00:29:48
Speaker
If we get to that section and the parties just don't align. So it's so important in the matching process that a parent and surrogate discuss this beginning to see like, what situations would a surrogate feel comfortable terminating a pregnancy or reducing a pregnancy?
00:30:05
Speaker
um And like I said, there's other things like during COVID, it was just a huge issue of whether someone would get vaccinated or not. And where surrogate worked, like if a parent was super nervous and they in their surrogate worked at a grocery store, whatever it was, like, maybe that's not the right match because you're not going to change what she's doing.
00:30:24
Speaker
ah That's her life. And so you have to feel comfortable with your match. And then the surrogate has to feel comfortable with the parents match, obviously, too. so Um, it goes, there has to be equal trust.
00:30:36
Speaker
There has to be trust. Otherwise you're just holding your breath for, you know, over a year and that's not comfortable for anybody. Absolutely. So those are things to think about just kind of, as you lead up to legal, just to make sure you see eye to eye, you're not forcing anything just to get going and, um, to understand, like you have to come to this process with some sensitivities.
00:30:58
Speaker
we can't contract things that are unreasonable for a surrogate. There has to be protections for her too. has to be fair. Like, you know, we have to, it's important to like defer to medical opinions and um have ah the parents understand like they can't micromanage her pregnancy or you know, her health or safety issues. So um it's just a different concept to kind of get used to.
00:31:24
Speaker
um because it's just like but a new concept for most people. And you have to be sensitive to both sides, protecting the parents and the parental rights and understanding that the other side is that the surrogate you know, a woman that's doing this to her body and that you have to make sure she's protected as well. So it's it's certainly interesting, interesting balance.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. for sure. Well, again, it's the people in the black and white process and it's figuring out how to make all of that, all of that fit, which is why it's so important to work with someone who is, you know, just part or professional in this process and you've seen it and things to look out for.
00:32:05
Speaker
Right. i mean, it's even, it goes even to our statute. Like our law in Florida says that the surrogate has, it's called the sole source and consent with respect to her body. So the parents have to always kind of have that as the overarching principle that these decisions are ultimately hers to make and everything else. i mean, it's coming down to in a way, like you're trusting her and she's trusting the parents. So you really have to, even though, like we said, there's a contract and it could be enforced. So you are um having to allow her to know that trust that she's going to make these, the best decisions with the guidance of her doctors.
00:32:42
Speaker
Well, I think, I mean, It is. It's going back to you you know, just it truly is that big trust factor. And, you know, there's there's so many steps along the way before you get to that contract phase to build that trust and to believe. Exactly. And and I think the more it's discussed, really helps.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say, you know, maybe to day Marla, what do you wish you kind of, you know, knew then that you know now as a part of this process, whether you're personal or one or just you as an attorney, what would kind of be that day one advice you'd give her?
Professional Insights and Support in Surrogacy
00:33:21
Speaker
Interesting question. I mean, from a personal perspective, I'd say when I was going through my infertility process, I never thought that I would get to surrogacy. Like you start at the beginning with like Clomid or IUI and you're like, sure I'll never need, you know, I'll never need IVF. And then there you are at IVF.
00:33:44
Speaker
and then you're like, I'll never need to work. This'll work. I'll never need surrogacy. And there I was. surrogacy I think it's just like trying not to like stay open-minded and kind of embrace these options versus resisting it, it's hard. I mean, I certainly, was a hard decision. It was a little harder for me than for my husband, because for the woman, you're kind of giving up certain things that you always kind of envision doing.
00:34:11
Speaker
um So I think to the best extent possible that you just kind of stay open to these options, because at the end of the day, i mean, now that I've been through it, I'm just so grateful that this was an option. and You know, i know some you know, being opened, if you need an egg donor or you know, sperm donor, like to the best extent possible. And like, obviously financially, it makes sense. Like, don't give up. There's like options available. so i'd hate for parents to think there's just like one path and that's it. Like be open.
00:34:46
Speaker
um Cause that was something I had to learn over the time, over time. And then professionally, I think what's interesting, um and I see it from the perspective since I work at a large firm, is there's just so many different legal aspects that come into this. And, sure you know, I handle the legal agreement and the parentage process.
00:35:07
Speaker
But I have an attorney at my firm that helps with estate planning. um i always recommend my clients have a will, a guardian appointed. God forbid what happens if a parent or the parents die or come become incapacitated. The surrogate's not going to be the parent of the child.
00:35:21
Speaker
yeah so it's always important. We have definitely established that. There will be no baby going home with a surrogate. Yes. And I've unfortunately had intended parents pass away while their surrogate is pregnant. I've had it happen twice.
00:35:33
Speaker
And it's critical that parents have an estate plan. And I always bring this up at the very beginning. And it's quite honestly just another part that like a lot of parents haven't thought about because there's just so much to consider. estate planning is an important thing.
00:35:50
Speaker
I refer to my firm also for immigration work. um Intended parents, as you know, can be from all over the world. and they have to make sure they have the legal ability to travel here and stay here for enough time.
00:36:03
Speaker
um to allow for whatever the baby and it might need to you know stay in the hospital. So understanding their legal ability to travel and stay here. um During COVID, we my immigration department helped with parents being able to leave here when ah borders shut down and it was very difficult to get passports. um My firm has a litigation department. Hopefully it's something we never need, but yeah there's just sort so many.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah. ah But it's there. and It's just interesting to kind of think about from a professional standpoint, just how much goes into this process. And um but if you take it step by step, it it comes together. And for me, the hardest stage of the whole process was like the day I decided to proceed with surrogacy. You feel kind of like, whoa, where do I start?
00:36:55
Speaker
um But if you kind of take a deep breath and like do it little bit by little bit, it really does come together and it narrows as you proceed. But it it can feel very overwhelming and and that's OK. And that's like a normal feel for it.
00:37:09
Speaker
um But with, you know, especially if you can work with your agency like that helps immensely to help kind of guide a parent and where to go, where to start, and when to do what. um So just kind of like taking a deep breath and like proceeding step by step.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes, exactly. Breaking it down little by little. Yeah. you know It can feel overwhelming. it can. It can feel very overwhelming. And yeah, but ultimately that big picture has those small puzzle pieces.
00:37:39
Speaker
And so you go step by step, whether it's, you know, that contract phase and thinking about, okay, now we've got to talk about estate planning and now we've got to talk about possibly immigration. And now we've got just all of those things. Right. Break it down step by step, which is why you build this team.
00:37:52
Speaker
and have an agency and an art attorney specifically and you know all of those, all of those things for sure. Yeah. And it's so great that I know within your agency, you have former surrogates, like multiple former surrogates that can help.
00:38:07
Speaker
Yes. To help both and from the intended parent side and the surrogate side to to offer that support, to share stories and be there to kind of help guide through that process is really, really helpful.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, again, that firsthand knowledge, just similar to you and your your firsthand knowledge, it it it helps a lot. It helps a lot. yeah as Yes. As you know, for sure. is it's It's a gift to give back after, you know, having, and you've you've given the gift. Yeah. as um And so, yeah, i mean, i I have such a wonderful experience working with your team.
00:38:41
Speaker
Oh, thank you, Mara. Yeah, it's just really nice. And I know anybody that's with you is in very good hands. That is so nice. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. we definitely, we love what we do for for sure. And and we have you love working with you.
00:38:58
Speaker
Yeah. And to the extent anybody ever has questions, they're welcome to reach out to me. I do offer complimentary consultations. A lot of times people are just exploring this as an option. I'm happy to provide information, even if you're not ready to proceed at that time. I'll hear from parents.
00:39:13
Speaker
yeah a year or two years later after they first reached out, you never know when someone's ready to do this and, or come back to it or need it for a second child or, um, so I'm always, i'm happy to help to whatever extent he can. And we'll have all of the information, um, in our show notes on how, um, if you can get ahold of you, but, um, before I let you go, i have one final question.
00:39:36
Speaker
Um, for anyone, and I know you've seen me sipping on it, um, this whole time, but for anyone who knows me, they know that I have a very codependent relationship with coffee. Um, and so I always like, yep. Cheers, ma'am. And so I always like to ask what filled your cup today, literally or figuratively, what was the thing yeah that has filled your cup?
00:40:03
Speaker
Well, literally it is the Nespresso pod. um there's There's a new one that's infused with vitamin D in it and it's so delicious. Oh, how very healthy.
00:40:15
Speaker
Yes. I don't know what it's called. and i use I use full fat milk and this is the actually interesting story. This is pottery that my mom made.
00:40:26
Speaker
And she made it during my infertility journey. So all of it is fertility. Like this is like the embryo. And this is my husband and I. And all of it's kind of like dreaming about the babies, which are all represented by little birds.
00:40:43
Speaker
So all of it. So i didn't plan that. Just all my mugs are my mom's fertility pot pottery. I love that. Okay. So for the listener, it is a white cup and it has just this gorgeous, like kind of tan outlines and like, oh my gosh, it's beautiful.
00:41:02
Speaker
It's absolutely beautiful. She's talented. Thank you. Yeah. I really love it. And she made me platters. I think she was channeling her stress with everything into her pottery. I love it. I love it. Yeah.
00:41:16
Speaker
And it's like, it touches so many people, like obviously my husband and I, but my mom and you know, my sister and everyone gets vested in the process. So that's beautiful.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah. Very cool question. what What was in your cup? Oh, um, I always kind of go with my go-to, you know, like Seattle's best drip coffee. Um, then of course, you know, tis the season. And so naturally I have some, some pumpkin spice,
00:41:44
Speaker
nice k creamer in there. so yeah, we're lover very living we're live fall. It's hard to for me to understand fall in Florida right now where it's still 90 degrees, but I'll pretend we're in fall.
00:41:56
Speaker
I don't understand it either. Exactly. I'm in Texas. So I kind of rebel against the heat by like forcing fall in other ways. Yes. It will be chilly no matter what. No matter what. No matter what. Oh my gosh.
00:42:11
Speaker
Well, Marla, I so appreciate you just giving your time and talking about, you know, just this passion that we share and, um you know, just giving all of the ah professional advice that you have as well as personal. And, um you know, I you've said it so many times already, but.
00:42:26
Speaker
We love working with you and um i love that we get to work together to to create these happy families and have those fun baby pictures at the end.
00:42:37
Speaker
Yes. Thank you for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure and so great to finally get to see you and speak to you. And it was a lot of fun and i'm I'm so happy to share. And thank you. Thank you for having me on the show.
00:42:49
Speaker
Thank you.
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:42:51
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Me, You, and Who. We appreciate your time and hope you enjoyed our discussion today.
00:43:00
Speaker
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00:43:14
Speaker
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00:43:30
Speaker
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00:43:45
Speaker
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00:44:01
Speaker
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