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117. Give Yourself Grace and Space-with Katherine Borner
76 Plays3 years ago
Katherine Barner is a Grief & Trauma Expert, Award-Winning Author, and Licensed Psychotherapist. with
nearly 30 years of professional experience in the mental health field working with local and state law
enforcement agencies, domestic and sexual violence crisis centers, persons with substance abuse disorders,
those with severe and persistent mental illness, and the homeless population.
Katherine is owner of KRB Unlimited LLC, a full service counseling, coaching, and consulting firm with two
signature programs including Sisters Speak Up Society, and the Living Beyond Loss Academy. Through her
company she specializes in equipping Black women survivors of childhood sexual abuse as well as individuals
recovering from significant loss with the skills to pursue and achieve, mental, emotional, and spiritual health
leading to more productive and peaceful lives.
With her engaging, powerful, and down to earth communication style, Katherine has entertained and
challenged audiences across the country as a national motivational speaker, Bible teacher, Emcee, and Host.
As past producer and editor of both her own weekly radio broadcast and podcast Katherine brought fresh
insights and relevant conversations to the airwaves. Through her radio broadcast, The Pearls of Wisdom Show
with Katherine Barner she interviewed a long list of women of faith including international gospel artist CeCe
Winans: award winning actresses Karen Abercrombie and Erica Tazel; award winning authors, Wendy Blight
and Susie Larson, along with many others. Her podcast, Sister Survivors highlighted conversations to equip
and empower survivors of sexual abuse.
Katherine received her BA in Psychology from Spelman College, and M.Ed. in Counseling from the University
of North Texas. She is a certified as an ICISF crisis responder, Clinical Trauma Specialist, and trained EMDR
practitioner.
Katherine's Links:
Book link: https://www.livingbeyondloss.org/GHMIG?r_done=1
Website: https://www.katherinebarner.org
Social Media: https://www.instagram. com/mrskatspeaks
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest or for coaching:
https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Healing from Abuse and Living Fully
00:00:01
Speaker
And so for me, it was just kind of a natural space of wanting to tap in and wanting other women who are still struggling with the residual effects of that to know and understand, to find healing. I talk a lot about finding peace from that and recognize that you really can live a life beyond the abuse and live the life that you want.
Introduction to 'Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between'
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:00:54
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
Katherine Varner's Expertise in Grief and Trauma
00:01:16
Speaker
We have on the podcast today, Katherine Varner, who is a grief and trauma expert. She's also an award-winning author and a licensed psychotherapy. She has nearly 30 years of professional experience in the mental health field. And we will be talking a lot today about all the different things she does and how she helps people in their
00:01:41
Speaker
trauma, and the methods, and the groups, and the workshops, and sessions, and podcasts, and you name it. Welcome, Catherine. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Kendra. I appreciate that introduction. It's good to be here with you. It's going to be a fun conversation. I love doing this. Thank you so much, Catherine. I love having you. I'm so grateful that you're here, and I'm grateful that I was contacted to have you. I'm always eager to learn about other people's
00:02:08
Speaker
journeys and stories, hence the reason I have the podcast. And so I'm happy you're here. So let's start at the beginning.
Katherine's Journey into Mental Health
00:02:16
Speaker
Who is Catherine? Not Catherine with all these titles that I just introduced. Who is Catherine? Where does she live? Where was she born? And how did she end up in this role?
00:02:28
Speaker
I love it. Yes. So Catherine minus all those titles, you know, I tell folks when you strip it all away, and I think I say this on my website after all of that, you know, I'm a wife, a mom, a recent granny, which is the best thing ever. Yes. Yes. You started young. I'm telling you, granny, and I absolutely love it. It's probably the title I love most right now. My kids are going to get me for saying that.
00:02:56
Speaker
They'll be okay. Congratulations. And, you know, love football, love traveling, love spending time with my family and friends. And, you know, at my core, that's really who I am. Love, you know, love Jesus and talking about him and the Bible and
00:03:15
Speaker
All that so that that's the core of who I am was born and raised in Texas, a small town in Texas and went to school in Atlanta, lived in, you know, a couple of other places for a while and then finally settled here.
00:03:31
Speaker
in Houston, which is where my husband and I make our home now. And, you know, how I got into this work, it's really interesting. After I graduated college, my mother said, get a job. I don't care where it is, just get a job. And so I think that was, you know, she had paid, she and my father had paid enough money.
00:03:54
Speaker
for college thankfully they did that and I didn't have to take out any student loans and she was like listen it is it's over is done. So I started out had a friend that worked at a local mental health agency in the town next to ours and we've been friends for a while and she's like hey they have a case manager position and I didn't know what the heck that was
00:04:16
Speaker
So you had studied psychology? I had studied psychology. That was my undergrad. I got my undergraduate degree at Spelman College in Atlanta in psychology, some of the best years of my life. But I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with that. Of course, everybody wants to be in private practice, but obviously there's a process to that. So at the time, I wasn't ready to go back to grad school just yet.
00:04:43
Speaker
So started working at a mental health agency and fell in love with it. Absolutely fell in love with mental health and at that time was working with chronically mentally ill patients and truly the sickest of the sick and I just absolutely loved it and so then my career you know from there just grew and
Understanding Grief Beyond Death
00:05:03
Speaker
went to different mental health agencies, finally did move into private practice. I've had experience in the county jail system, the state prison system, nursing homes, schools, and all that. So that led me to where I am today, which is my passion, grief and trauma. I absolutely love it. Lots of people think I'm weird when I say that, but
00:05:26
Speaker
And that's where I hang my hat. No worries. Listen, my podcast being titled Grief. I hear you. It's weird to say that. I love having conversations about these topics, but it's so true because it just brings us all also to the core of these commonalities that we have too, right? And grief being one that we will all or have all experienced in some shape or form.
00:05:53
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. And what I tell people, it really is for me with the grief and trauma, it really is about being in a space to sit with people, to help people at a time when they are literally at their lowest. And most of the time, they've got nothing to give. And so it really, for me,
00:06:19
Speaker
That gives me life, being able to be with folks in that moment and then helping them walk through that as the process plays itself out, helping them work through and understand what grief is. It's one of the things I talk about a lot, understanding what grief really is. Grief is about loss. Oftentimes,
00:06:41
Speaker
only focus on grief as it relates to death but grief is about loss you know job loss and finances and children going away to college and you know things that oftentimes people don't don't recognize as grief and so that's one of the reasons i enjoy it so much um so yeah that that's part of the work that i do and it's just it's just a really really it's a gift honestly um to
00:07:09
Speaker
to be able to, like I said, to sit with people during those seasons. It's interesting because what you said, it's a gift. You are being fed just as much as they are being fed, per se, their soul. It's because you are in your purpose.
00:07:27
Speaker
right, as you're doing that. Absolutely. So you feel like even though somebody could feel they're burdening you, quote unquote, because they're shedding all this to you for you, or you're like, no, I am, you are allowing me to be able to display my, the gifts I was given, my God-given gifts, and to be in this space is like a blessing,
Aligning with Purpose in Grief Work
00:07:47
Speaker
right? Because you're utilizing, you're the tools you were given, and some of course that you've owned, but some you were given.
00:07:54
Speaker
Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I always say that this work is definitely not for everyone. It's difficult work, but I always say it's necessary work. And you're wholeheartedly correct in that there is a space of knowing
00:08:11
Speaker
when you are completely in your lane and in alignment with what your gift is, what your assignment from God is. And there's a feeling there that you can't quite describe when you're moving in that direction. Is it hard? Absolutely. But it's necessary. And again, it's the thing that I love and I enjoy most.
00:08:38
Speaker
I am very curious to learn then who and how you were then as a child that then led
From Engineering to Psychology: Katherine's Career Shift
00:08:46
Speaker
you to then study psychology. Were you always one of those people that your friends would tell everything to? Were you just the best listener ever? Or did you go into psychology because you had questions even about yourself?
00:09:02
Speaker
that you're like, I need to answer, why is it that I am XYZ? Like curious, why did you go into that field? That's a great question. I actually, I actually found my way to psychology, you know, growing, I was the one who, you know, I did, you know, listen to friends and that sort of thing.
00:09:20
Speaker
But I actually entered college wanting to be a civil engineer. I wanted to build bridges and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But somewhere in there, it shifted to, you know, everyone says, oh, I want to help people. That's kind of the standard line. But it did shift to really wanting to understand the how and why behind
00:09:44
Speaker
the way people behave the way they do, and more importantly, the way we respond and how to help us move from that, had experienced some trauma in my own life as a teenager. And I won't say I was struggling to understand it, but I could see that there was a connection. It wasn't until later that I got to a place of seeing that there were so many other people who had experienced the same thing that I did.
00:10:10
Speaker
coming through my practice, that kind of led to the specific trauma work with childhood survivors of sexual abuse. But yeah, it really just came out of that space sitting in a psychology class that I had to take for credit. And I was like, wait a minute. Well, this is kind of cool. And that started the fire. And then from there, it just kept going. And like I said, once I graduated and got that first job, it was like, this is the best thing ever.
00:10:40
Speaker
I love it, I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I'm just, it's always curious whether people just land on, you know, just kind of lands on your lap kind of thing or,
00:10:52
Speaker
or like you said, like how it is that you get to that journey. The part of then, say the title again, Childhood Survivors of Childhood Abuse. Right, so I work specifically with African-American women, adult women survivors of childhood sexual abuse. And I say African-American women, because some people say, well, do you only work with African-American women? Obviously, if someone comes to me who's not, I don't turn them away.
00:11:21
Speaker
But that is my target. And I say that because the unfortunate truth is that, first of all, we don't talk about that at all across the board. But even more so, culturally in our communities, we don't talk about it. And I know just from my own experience in looking for and trying to find providers that look like me and finally accessing services, being in a space where I was the only one
00:11:47
Speaker
at conferences or workshops and those sorts of things. But I know that I'm not the only one who's had the experience. And so for me, it was just a kind of a natural space of wanting to tap in and wanting
00:12:03
Speaker
other women who are still struggling with the residual effects of that to know and understand, to find healing. I talk a lot about finding peace from that and recognize that you really can live a life beyond the abuse and live the life that you want. I absolutely love that. That is my passion. That's the trauma side of
Healing for African-American Women Survivors
00:12:30
Speaker
the house, I'll say.
00:12:32
Speaker
And the work that I do there through Sister Speak Up Society, that is a membership community. And that's really what we're trying to do is build community of women so that they know I am not the only one. I'm not by myself.
00:12:47
Speaker
come out of the darkness, you know, get rid of the shame because that's what keeps us bound. That's what keeps us dealing with those, like I said, the trauma and those residual effects when we walk around and we don't say anything. But healing really is found in the light. And so it's helping women understand that and creating that that community. And so we do some work. We have a private Facebook group. We're planning on doing some quarterly meet and greets.
00:13:14
Speaker
having some additional training I do some teachings on topics specific to sexual abuse but we also do some things that have nothing to do with that because the reality is there's a whole other part of your life you know we're business owners and teachers and moms and wives and all the things so you know we're gonna have someone come in and talk about trademarking your business if you're an entrepreneur or trademark whatever your you know your specific thing is and how
00:13:39
Speaker
how that impacts you, which has nothing to do with sexual abuse. But as a woman who's in business, that's something that someone would be interested in. So we're trying to do that. I will be looking at doing some conferences and retreats and those sorts of things as the year progresses. But it's exciting. Like I said, it's difficult work, but it's necessary work. And I wholeheartedly enjoy it.
00:14:05
Speaker
And it's so empowering, right, to empower someone else and to know again, because in that journey, that's what you're doing. You're not only just listening, but you're creating a space of empowerment. Absolutely. And especially in a culture in which a lot of it, right, has been this empowerment, and especially in the African-American community. For so many years, I was going to ask about that in terms of generational trauma also carrying through. If you want to talk about that, if you notice,
00:14:34
Speaker
that within the people that you talk to? Absolutely. And it comes from a space of culturally, you know, the vast majority of us came from a place where what happens in this house stays in this house. You know, you talk about what happens outside the house. Also, when we layer on top of that,
00:14:55
Speaker
our beliefs as far as Christianity, you pray about it and that's it. And that's wonderful and obviously that is where I hang my hat and I land there. However, there is prayer plus as well. And I often, I liken it to, I'm gonna talk about this when I'm talking about mental health as well. I liken it to, if I come to my church family and I say that I've been diagnosed with breast cancer,
00:15:26
Speaker
We're most definitely going to pray, but in addition to that, I live in Houston, we're going to make a beeline to MD Anderson as well, and we're going to talk to an oncologist. So it's that same thing that I try to help people understand.
00:15:42
Speaker
is that when you're dealing with trauma, when you're talking specifically about childhood sex abuse and just the litany of things that fall out from that for survivors, yes, we are most definitely going to pray about it, but we're going to do some other things as well to come alongside to help
00:15:58
Speaker
to help that healing happen. And so for me, you talk about the word, you said empowering, and that's exactly what it is because for me, it's about, it's recognizing that for me,
00:16:14
Speaker
I know that there are women who went through similar situations, some situations that were very, very different. Our specific story may be different, but I, for whatever, I won't say for whatever reason, I know the reason. By the grace of God, I didn't have those significant, what we may term maladaptive behaviors in the field is what we call them. But what they really are is coping styles. And what I say is just trying to figure out how to live.
00:16:44
Speaker
difficult relationships, drug abuse, you know, prostitution, all of those things that are a real fallout from childhood sexual abuse when you're just trying to cope and figure out what the heck happened to me and how to live.
00:17:01
Speaker
I know that there are women who have had that experience. And I also know that there are women who never said a word to anybody about what happened to them. And they're living that internal turmoil of how to process that. And so on the outside, and I say this a lot, particularly in our social media community where we can make things look like we want on social media. You take 17 pictures to get the perfect one to post on Instagram.
00:17:32
Speaker
and a background change. You could be in Hawaii if you wanted that. Exactly. And so
Deserving Peace and Healthy Relationships
00:17:40
Speaker
we do that. And so you have women who are on the outside. They look the part, and they've got the bag and all the things on the outside. But on the inside, they're literally dying because they've never spoken of and dealt with.
00:17:56
Speaker
the trauma that they experienced in childhood. And so it's coming out in other ways. And so, again, that's...
00:18:06
Speaker
The passion that I have comes from that place and comes from knowing what I experienced and how I moved through that process and knowing that there are still women out there who were suffering and wanting to get them to a place where they can live. One of the things I say, they can live the life that they both desire and deserve. Living the life you desire and deserve. That's so important, the part of deserving because
00:18:33
Speaker
that part of worthiness is something we struggle with a lot. I mean, I struggle with, I don't, I think pretty much everyone at some point or shape or form in their life has, you know, not felt worthy of, and that the word deserving is one of those that I don't really deserve good to me. You actually, you know, you end up, it's like if something bad happens, it's like you did something, well, you deserve that, you know, wasn't that like when you would,
00:18:58
Speaker
If by chance you did something wrong as a kid and something happened, well, that's what you deserve. Do you know? Exactly. That's what you get for doing it. Exactly. And we are quick to do that when negative things happen, but we're not so quick to say that I deserve the positive or I deserve to have to live a life and be at peace. I deserve to be in a relationship
00:19:22
Speaker
that's healthy and whole. I deserve, you know, not to, this example I use all the time, you know, not to jump every time my husband may touch me on my left shoulder because I never told him that that's a trigger for me. And so we have this, you know, we have these things going on in our marriage because he can't figure out what the heck is going on. I deserve not to have to deal with that. So so
Tools and Techniques for Healing Trauma
00:19:47
Speaker
many things that, again, like I said, that are a fallout, which is why I am so passionate about
00:19:52
Speaker
working with and talking with women. So I can talk about that for days. No. And I actually, let's go into that because you were talking even just about your own, the tools, even that helped you. Could you share some of these tools that you feel
00:20:07
Speaker
are a side of course from someone seeking counseling. What are some of the tools that people can use to then, or even in the modalities of counseling, you could go deeper into that, to start peeling away this onion of the trauma to really get to the core of the trauma to that, right? Yeah, I think that, you know, I'm always gonna say therapy, therapy, therapy.
00:20:35
Speaker
Absolutely. Because especially if it's what the field you're in, if it's also the field that helped you, it's going to be it. But within it, there's a whole different modalities as well. So you can talk about that aspect. Yeah. So there are a couple of things. And one of the things that we talk about is understanding how trauma impacts your brain, particularly when we're talking about children, but just in general.
00:21:02
Speaker
and how, as children, when trauma impacts you, because think about it, as a child, it is the responsibility of the adults in the room to protect me.
00:21:15
Speaker
just by definition. So when that then doesn't happen, as a child, I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand, well, what was that? So when we start talking about coping styles and learning to survive, and what do I do to stay safe, and what that means, what I learned then follows me throughout my lifetime. And so there's a whole lot of scientific stuff when we talk about how
00:21:42
Speaker
you know the pathways in our brain those neural pathways in our brain are set and that's how we begin to respond we talk about the whole fight flight or freeze that's where those things start to happen and so part of it is understanding how does trauma impact my brain
00:21:59
Speaker
which helps when we're talking about women, which helps women look back and go, oh, this is why I do this. This is why I respond this way. This is why this is a trigger. So part of it is having a clear understanding of how does trauma impact your brain. There's a phenomenal book that I recommend. It's called The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. I think everybody that teaches trauma refers to that one. It's an amazing one.
00:22:23
Speaker
I really like it a lot. It's a hard read, but it's a good read. But also, as far as modalities, one that I like a lot, particularly when we're talking about individuals who are having significant distress still and trauma is EMDR.
00:22:41
Speaker
that stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. It's all mouthful, which is why we use the letters. Then I use like a, do you hold something as you're doing it too, right? So you can, so it's called bilateral stimulation. And so you can do it with holding things. Sometimes we do it with tapping. And so really the really, really scaled down version is helping an individual recall
00:23:10
Speaker
a specific incident, just a portion of the trauma, not the whole piece, but just a portion that's causing them distress, and then you work with that to bring down that distress level. So that is very impactful for clients. And then just some what we call, I call just kind of everyday things. Journaling is phenomenal for lots of women. Just being able to get it out of your head and your heart,
00:23:37
Speaker
Because oftentimes when we're talking about trauma that has happened a lot in dealing with the shame and trying to get rid of that, a lot of times it's just telling the story to yourself. So oftentimes we hear about sharing your story, sharing your story.
00:23:52
Speaker
Oftentimes it's I just need to share the story with me because many times women will will say that this thing happened to me but they're not specific in what in all of this of what that was and what that meant so it's being able to get that out for themselves so journaling is phenomenal music exercise you know
00:24:14
Speaker
All of those things to get your body moving are positive things that you can do just on a lower level scale, I call it. For folks who may not be into therapy, that's perfectly fine. Obviously, faith is a huge one, and that's a huge one for me.
00:24:32
Speaker
your faith community, praying, meditating, all of those types of things or things that individuals can use to help them either begin to move through their trauma if they're not ready to really enter therapy or it's just an ongoing part of their healing process or things that they do that keep them
00:24:52
Speaker
that keep them grounded, that keep them in an even keel. And speaking of grounding, that's another technique that's used. What's really just about when individuals feel like they're being, or when they are being triggered, a simple one we call is a 54321, where you just
00:25:08
Speaker
getting in touch with each of your senses. So what are five things that I can touch? What are three things that I, four things I can see and going all the way down, three things that I can hear, one thing I can smell, you know, or two things I can smell, one thing I can taste. And so it helps to bring, bring you back to what I call center.
00:25:28
Speaker
to get you back in the moment and come back from wherever the triggers have taken you. So those are a few things that are available to folks that work. And then like I said, there's a lot, a lot of deep work that individuals can do, just depending on where they are in their healing process. That is so important. Now, let me ask you, regarding the aspect of someone
00:25:55
Speaker
feeling that therapy is something they're going to go to, because a lot of times, again, back again to either what you grew up believing or doing, you don't tell anybody. Like you said, it stays in the house. So what do you mean you're now going to suddenly go and tell all your things to someone? So the component of even taking that step, like how do you transition from someone that's really needing it, but then
00:26:24
Speaker
that they then take that step to actually seek for therapy and also finding the right therapist for them, which is an important process too. Yeah, that's a great question. And as far as finding a therapist, I think it's so important when you're talking, when you're talking about grief, when you're talking about trauma or whatever it may be that you're going to therapy for, I think it's so important to, but trauma specifically, is to make sure that you are
00:26:50
Speaker
Working with a therapist who is trauma informed, meaning they have been trained to work with individuals who have experienced trauma meaning they understand the brain body connection and why we respond the way we do and triggers and all those things.
00:27:06
Speaker
And so what I tell folks is don't be afraid to ask your therapist, have you worked with these types of issues? Can you share with me some of the modalities that you use? Those kinds of conversations on the call to set the appointment. Those are fair questions to ask a therapist.
00:27:27
Speaker
So as far as accessing resources and finding a therapist, there are several websites. There's Psychology Today. They have a therapy finder on their website going through the American Psychology Association. There's Therapy for Black Girls, Therapy for Black Boys. So there are a lot of resources online, but also what I tell folks also is going through their insurance, through the private insurance. Most, if not all, have what's called an EAP program.
00:27:55
Speaker
That stands for Employee Assistance Program. And so those offer free sessions. And so most individuals will have anywhere from three, maybe up to six free sessions that's paid by their employer. And so all you do is you call your human resources department and say, hey, who's our EAP provider? You don't have to tell them why you're called what. You just want to know who's our EAP provider.
00:28:18
Speaker
They're going to let you know, give you a phone number, you call that company and let them know you're looking for a counselor and they'll walk you through the process. So I always tell folks to use that because it's free. You use those sessions like you need to and then if you still need services beyond that, then they can always talk you through, that therapist can talk you through getting to someone that you can build your insurance or if you want willing and wanting to do private pay, then you can stay with the person that you have there. So that's always a great resource for folks as well as for finding a therapist.
00:28:47
Speaker
That's so important. The part that it's already covered in some cases by your employer or that your insurance provides a few sessions for free, that is huge because that also gives a person a possibility of checking it out so that they see if it's the right fit. Because somebody's not willing to invest. Exactly. Especially if you're deductible only. Things like that. Like if you don't have a high debt. Whatever it is that you have to start paying.
00:29:15
Speaker
Right away, if you don't really know how it's going to serve you and shift your life in ways that you could not even fathom. It is an investment in your life. This is not just something you're just throwing money out. No, this is going to shift and change your life.
00:29:34
Speaker
So why not see if it's a possibility? I love the way that you put that, that it is an investment in your life. That is so good. And you're right, it will literally change the trajectory of your life. But this is what I tell folks, that therapy, you have to be willing to do the work. Because therapy is work, no matter what you go in for. And understand that as the therapist, I'm not doing the vast majority of the work.
00:30:02
Speaker
You're doing the work as a client. And so sometimes people come in and like, well, I want you to fix me. It's like, well, no, that's not exactly how it works. But you have to be willing to do the work and be open. But I love, love, love the way you put that. It's an investment in yourself. And again, that goes for whatever the issue may be, whether it's trauma,
00:30:21
Speaker
whether it's on the grief side of the house, you have to be willing to do that. And what I tell folks is understand that going in that initial session is going to be uncomfortable because you're right. It's not natural to walk into someone's office that you've literally never met and begin to talk to them about really difficult situations and really difficult seasons in your life. And so there has to be a level of trust and level of rapport that's built with a therapist.
00:30:47
Speaker
And it's okay to communicate that. And so I tell individuals when they're first starting therapy, give it at least at least two, possibly three sessions before you say this isn't going to work. Because there has to be that time to build up the rapport and be willing to actually engage with a therapist and do the work that they're providing you.
00:31:08
Speaker
You know, and the aspect that it's a safe space, this person's not here to judge you at all. They're here to guide you. It's not so different than in dynamics and our friendships in which we may not end up sharing with our family or friends because we're afraid to lose their love or lose their friendship, quote unquote. Yes, that's a great point. People sometimes swallow all these things because they're the shame and guilt and so forth. They don't end up wanting to say it.
00:31:36
Speaker
because then someone may look at them differently, right? So here's someone you have, they have nothing. You got no attachment to your outcome rather than the fact that they really do want you to do
00:31:50
Speaker
That's right. Exactly. That's an excellent point. They're only vested to the degree that they want you to accomplish whatever goals you come in and say, hey, this is what I want to work on. This is where I want to get. That's where they're vested. They're not concerned. They're really not going to dinner talking about what you shared with them with effort. That's not what we do because we can't.
00:32:16
Speaker
And so you're right, it is a place that you can go and just let it all hang out because it can't leave the room, legally, it can't leave the room. And so it's kind of one of those, you just go and throw it all on the wall and tell your therapist, look,
00:32:33
Speaker
this is what I've got today. And that's really okay. So I love you bringing that point out. It is a safe space. It is a safe space. And when we were talking about investing, and sometimes we may not be thinking that we're worth the investment meant for ourselves, but if we think of it as not only that shifting the trajectory of our life isn't important, but that is important
00:32:55
Speaker
and not only for us, but for the generations that come, because how we're going to interact with our children will also shift. How we're going to interact with our spouses or whatever is going to shift. So if by chance we're in a space
00:33:10
Speaker
that we don't feel we deserve to invest that in us than think of it as an investment for, and this is not just, I'm not talking about just finances. This is an aspect of time. It's a time. Absolutely. It's a part of time and the work that it takes that you said that is sometimes
00:33:30
Speaker
harder of investment than actually just paying, right? The part that you have to actually have to do the homework that the therapist gave you. But I love that point. You're right of how it does. It changes you. The goal is for it to change you. Not all those other people that
00:33:47
Speaker
Because most of the time you go into therapy and you're like, so I want you to change my husband, my children, all these other folks. But it's really about you making changes. And so then the system around you does begin to change and does begin to shift. So you make an excellent point. It is about helping to change the trajectory. You mentioned earlier, we're talking about
00:34:03
Speaker
those generational things and those patterns of being silent and holding on to that shame and not talking about things, how that does impact generations down the line and how unhealthy it is because what you then rely on is those unhealthy coping skills that have been passed down versus learning new and healthy coping skills that are going to open up
00:34:26
Speaker
your life again and shift you in a way that you didn't even know was possible. So being open to doing that is half the battle in and of itself, being willing to do it. Yeah. That's the part, the willing. The willing is probably the hardest. The willing. That's it. And then actually doing it is the other half. Yeah. Yeah. No, that is. Because nobody's going to drive. Somebody could drive you to an appointment, but that won't make a difference if you're not really
00:34:54
Speaker
ready there to deal with it. Now, let's go into your book. Okay. Because of the trauma. So you specialize in grief and in trauma, and is it the grief that comes from trauma or all types of grief? And then afterwards, I'll ask you about the book. So first, you could clarify that. Yeah.
Intersection of Grief and Trauma
00:35:16
Speaker
That is an excellent question. So it is all types of grief.
00:35:19
Speaker
And what I say is that grief is about loss, so actually about all types of loss. There is a component, I'm glad you bring it up, there is a component of grief to the trauma that we work with when we're talking about survivors of childhood sexual abuse. There is a portion of grief there, and so we do touch on that side of the house, but in the book and the work that I do there is grief across the board.
00:35:41
Speaker
Yes. And I love that you're saying how it really is about loss. It's about any transition in life that creates, because in almost, like I talk about even grieving when I became a mom, for example, because there was this big shift in my life that occurred in that moment, and it was this loss of identity to some extent. Yes. Like, wait, where am I when now this new role, right? And like kind of trying to find
00:36:10
Speaker
the parts of me that I could still kind of recognize and maybe and reading a little bit the parts that I had lost a little bit of the freedom sleeping through the night. And it was such a happy time too, right? It's like, it's not only associated with sad moments, it can be associated with happy moments and life that you still can read.
00:36:35
Speaker
That is such an excellent point. I'm so glad you bring that up. Because so many people, I was talking to someone just the other day who's really, really dealing with a lot of grief because their child is about to head off to college. And this is a male, by the way. And so generally, men really don't
00:36:57
Speaker
Communicate these things, but he was talking to me. He's like I I literally can't get it together He said my son is packing and I can't go by the room because I just start crying and I help people understand that and most of the times when I hear that I'm talking about kids going out to college is usually the moms that say that and I'm like I don't know what's wrong with me I should be happy. I really do want them to go. I'm happy for them, and I'm like hold on I
00:37:20
Speaker
When you think about when you break this down you're talking about a person who's lived in your house for the past 18 years that you've been responsible for caring for and now all of a sudden they're like so hey I'm out of here like that's that's not supposed to feel
00:37:36
Speaker
completely good. Yes, you're happy for them. You want them to have a great, but there is a part that grieves their physical presence being there with you. And so there are these positive things that happen in our lives when we do experience that feeling of loss. And so then there's the process of grief that happens. I dealt with an individual years ago. He was in the military his entire career. He was preparing to retire.
00:38:02
Speaker
was happy about retiring, wanted to retire, had all the plans. His wife, he and his wife had made what, where they were going to go, what they were going to do. So he retires, has his great party, and a month later he comes to see me and he's, he was miserable. He said, I don't know what's wrong. I can't get it together. What is happening? And so we talked about... Huge! That's a huge one right there. Yes. You're grieving the life you had because that's his job. Exactly.
00:38:26
Speaker
part of his life, huge part of his life. Yeah. And what you said that his identity was wrapped into that. And so now it was, well, wait a minute, who am I? Like, what do I do? Yes, I was looking forward to just sitting by the lake and fishing, but wait a minute, what do I do? Like, can I literally, can I really fish every day? I don't want to fish every day.
00:38:46
Speaker
So those types of things, I'm really glad you brought that up, that happened. And then of course, the difficult seasons that we go through, you know, the death and the job loss and
00:38:58
Speaker
you know, the finances and the relationships and, you know, health challenges and all of those things that can bring about the process of loss.
Personal Grief and 'God Help Me, I'm Grieving'
00:39:07
Speaker
And so, you know, I wrote the book. Yeah. Let's say the name. Let's say the name. So, yes. So, God help me. I'm grieving. Yes. So the title of the book is God help me. I'm grieving, finding healing after loss. And I'll tell you, I actually wrote this book.
00:39:26
Speaker
After my mother passed away, my mom passed away in 2011. And my mother was my everything. There's really no other way to describe it. She was my everything. She was my biggest cheerleader. I mean, she was my girl. And we were extremely close. And when she passed away, I went through a period where I just did not know what to do.
00:39:56
Speaker
And I got to a place where I was like, now, wait a minute, if if I know all the things that I know about mental health and grief and trauma and all the work that I had done at that point had done for, you know, almost 20 years at that point.
00:40:12
Speaker
If I know everything that I know about this and I am struggling the way that I'm struggling, what in the world is everybody else doing? And so that's really where the book came from. And I really just wanted to write it as a way to, yes, to help people understand grief, to understand the process of grief.
00:40:32
Speaker
and really to give them permission to grieve in whatever way they needed to, and to really start to pay attention to what their grief style is. And so it's, you know, it's an easy, it's not really headies. There's not a lot of psychological stuff in there. I wasn't trying to do that. We do talk about, you know, what oftentimes people turn the stages of grief. I refer to them as waves, because that's what they are. There's not a one, two, three, four, five steps, and then you get over it.
00:41:02
Speaker
So yeah, it's a book that's helped a lot of people. It's really interesting. I get text messages and emails from folks who grabbed it and read it because you can probably do it in, you know, one or two days. But again, and it's one that you can pick up and put down and come back to it later and pick up a portion of it, but really is
00:41:26
Speaker
One that I'm proud of, and like I said, it was really born out of my own struggle and trying to find a way to go, like I said, what is everybody else doing? Folks who don't know all the stuff that I know to do. It was a grueling process, I'll say that, but glad that I did it.
00:41:49
Speaker
Oh, and I was, I was looking at the website here. And by the way, where do people can order it on the website, but also is it available and other? Yes. So you can find it. Yes. You can always, you can find it on my website at kathrynbarner.org, but yes, you can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, um, anywhere fine books are sold. Um, you can find it.
00:42:10
Speaker
Your website will be in the show notes and so people can go there and then they could do it there. Again, it's, God help me, I'm grieving, finding healing after loss. I want to read a couple of these little things. You've got little bits of the book that you have on your website and then we could talk about it. So your grief is valid. No one gets to tell you it isn't. And no one gets to tell you how or for how long you should grieve.
00:42:38
Speaker
So, let's talk about that part of the uniqueness of grief and, again, validating someone's grief. Yeah. So, it's this idea that, you know, if you cry longer than two weeks, you know, or if you're struggling longer than a month, then there's something wrong with you. You need to be medicated. You need to be medicated. You need to be hospitalized. Something's wrong with you.
00:43:05
Speaker
For oftentimes, you know for men if you're not crying and if you go back to work You know the day after the few and you also need to Because there's that so it's it's that you use the word it uniqueness of you know understanding that because this is the thing I say that I talked about the three piece of Greek grief is personal grief is a process and grief is perfectly normal and so part of it it's that personal piece that
00:43:34
Speaker
Every one of us is going to agree very, very differently. And I'll share this. This is a story I share in the book of my husband. He hates when I do this, but it's the absolute truth. He will say it's not, but this is a true story. So our fathers passed away in 2009, almost two months to the day from each other. His father passed away in April. My father passed away in June.
00:43:56
Speaker
Well, obviously, Father's Day is in June. So my dad passed away. I want to say it was June 7th. Of course, you have all the things. Well, Father's Day rolls around. Well, needless to say, I was still struggling a bit at that point. And my husband, and I will say this, my husband is a psychologist. So hear this. So I'm still emoting about the fact that my father has died. And my father and I had a difficult relationship. So there was all that layered on top of it.
00:44:25
Speaker
So he says to me one day as we're laying on the sofa, I'm in his lap crying, he says to me, it's been two weeks, you should be better by now. Now, hear me when I say. I'm like, I don't know. We are still married today.
00:44:43
Speaker
He is still currently my husband and he was my, so I did not like, you know, hide him in the bushes somewhere. He was just saying what it's like, some of us just say because we also are so uncomfortable with seeing someone go. Bingo! We don't know.
00:44:58
Speaker
How to deal with it that it really it's a reflection of ourselves of oh my gosh, what do I do with all these emotions? And that's why I use that I put that in the book he was like you are not gonna put that in the book Oh, I'm putting it in the book
00:45:13
Speaker
But, but you're absolutely right. It was when I, you know, when I'm teaching, I tell people like he wasn't trying to send me into orbit, although that's what happened when he said it. You're absolutely right. It came from that place of
00:45:32
Speaker
My wife is hurting, my wife is crying, and I can't fix it. So what do I, I don't know what to do. And you're right, because none of us like to see people hurt. None of us want to see people, we want them to stop because you're right, it does make us uncomfortable. And so it's so important for the one who's grieving to understand and to know that your grief is normal.
00:45:58
Speaker
And that your grief is personal. So when people say things to you like that, you don't then take on, well, maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't still be crying. Maybe I should be okay. Maybe there's something is wrong with me. So that's why I use that example. And I love, you know, that you brought up that quote, because it's so important to understand how you grieve and understand that that grief is normal given whatever you've been through.
00:46:24
Speaker
It is normal. It is okay. It is a process. You're going to get through it, but for wherever you are in the space right now, it is okay. Yes. The other thing too, you've experienced the death of your dad and your mom two years apart.
00:46:40
Speaker
To also not have this expectation, like you said before, you had all these tools you already had and you still struggled. Now, the other added thing, you had already experienced the grief of the death of your dad, yet you're adding another one. Not to also think that you were going to grieve the same way.
00:46:58
Speaker
that you grieved the loss of another person. So having this grace with yourself in that process of knowing that I, okay, this is odd. Why is it that I'm not handling this right now the same way I did this other thing? I should have grown through that. I just went, how do I know? No, you're not going to grieve the same.
00:47:23
Speaker
That is an excellent point, and that grace point that you bring up is so true, because I say this all the time to folks, give yourself the grace and the space to grieve the way that you need to. And you're right. I'll share another example. My parents passed away right about two and a half years apart.
00:47:40
Speaker
I was, I could not get it together after my, it took me about a year just to figure out that the world was still spinning after my mom passed away. I was still going through the motions, but emotionally it took a while. And so I'll share this because this actually just happened. My uncle, who's my mom's brother, passed away last year, it was a year on Monday, on Tuesday rather, that he passed away.
00:48:05
Speaker
And I always say he was more of a father to me than an uncle. I called him uncle, but he was so much more than that. When he passed away, the grief that I experienced and the sense of loss that hit me last year when he passed away, when it sent me into a tailspin that looked nothing like when my father passed away.
00:48:29
Speaker
And so what I talk to people about is the who, the what, the when, the where, and the how of your loss. Who was it that passed away? Okay. Well, in name, it was my uncle. Okay. But when you talk about the relationship,
00:48:46
Speaker
Uh, the title and then, but in the relationship relationally, he was more of a father than an uncle. So that looked very different. So I tell people that oftentimes, you know, think about when friends pass away or a cousin or, you know, a grandmother that, you know, a pet.
00:49:05
Speaker
A pet. Absolutely. I'm going to be interviewing somebody that is a grief coach for people with pet loss because that's one that people do not comprehend how someone could be so sad over the companion that you've had the closest to you. Absolutely.
00:49:22
Speaker
Yeah, it boils down to loss. And what was that relationship? Relationally, what was that like for you? And so those are some examples that I give. Again, I appreciate you bringing up that quote. And that was a really long answer to your question.
Expressing Grief and Maintaining Faith
00:49:40
Speaker
But yeah, again, I can talk about this all day, too. I love it. Yeah. Love it. And I love it. Love it. Love it. Thank you so much. Let me say one more from here. And let's see.
00:49:51
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to say the last one, especially since the book is called, God Help Me I'm Breathing, it's faith-based. Let's go with this last one. God never disqualified anyone for expressing his or her grief, and you are no different. Your emotional response to your loss does not disqualify you as his child.
00:50:14
Speaker
Let's go into that part. So the part of, do people feel somehow guilty in terms of, are they struggling when they grieve? Is it because they feel a sense of guilt that they're struggling with
00:50:30
Speaker
their sense of their faith of what is to come of their knowing that let's say everything I learned spiritually per se, you might be struggling with that in that moment of like, okay, I know what happens, whatever people's beliefs are as they're listening to this, whatever beliefs you have as you're carrying through, if in that moment of grieving, your faith is challenged in some way in your grief.
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah. Is that, is that kind of what that quote is from? Exactly. It's this idea that, you know, again, going back to if, if, if I cry too long, if I emote, if I'm angry, you know, if, if I have a question about why this happened the way it happened, if I question God or whatever that may be, then some, I shouldn't do that because, cause I do believe in, in, in, like you said, him or whatever your belief system is.
00:51:23
Speaker
And so if I believe that I shouldn't have these questions, if I believe that I shouldn't feel this way or I certainly shouldn't feel this way very long because it's going to be better and they're in a better place and all the things that people say.
00:51:36
Speaker
which is very, very inconsistent because the reality is we were created with emotions and our faith doesn't negate that we have those emotions. And because we have those emotions, that doesn't take away from the fact that I still believe, but I'm hurting. I still believe, but I have a question. I do wanna know why. I know that there may not be an actual answer, but in the moment I have a question.
00:52:03
Speaker
You know, in the moment, I am hurting emotionally and it's okay for me to communicate that. And so oftentimes when I'm working particularly with individuals in the faith community, it's helping them understand that you don't have to close off that part of you. You don't have to pretend that you're okay. You're hurting.
00:52:25
Speaker
And that's all right. You're not going to hurt always, but in this moment you are. And that doesn't negate that you still believe that you still love God, that you still have a relationship that you, but you're hurting. So, so there's a whole chapter in the book. It's called the faith factor.
00:52:44
Speaker
To help people move through that and so on there what I just I walk through scripture and give examples of individuals who were grieving And you know the point is if and I when I use all the time You know particularly for Christians is you know there's there's one scripture Jesus wept you know two words and my point is
00:53:02
Speaker
if he wept, well, why do you think you shouldn't? So again, that's where that quote comes from out of the book. And that's a whole lesson in and of itself, just to help. And again, the book is really about helping people shed some of that weight and that guilt of, and those shoulds and those aughts and all of those absolutes when it comes to grief, because there aren't any.
00:53:28
Speaker
Yes, there aren't it. There's not a specific roadmap for anybody. That's why I think that these conversations are so important and that's why I think that we've been so judgmental of our own grief is because somehow we think that we have to grieve a certain way or be over it or that time heals and that therefore we should be okay after a certain number of times, after the two weeks. Exactly.
00:53:58
Speaker
But all these misconceptions that we have that therefore add to that guilt component.
00:54:07
Speaker
of our grief, we start judging ourselves in our grief. And that is just not... Absolutely. Which only compounds it and... Oh yeah. And I'm sure that in that process, then going to that book that you recommended of The Body Keeps a Score, I haven't read it, but even just going with how much even just storing our emotions and not sharing them aside from trauma, how that affects us in so many other ways also in our health.
00:54:34
Speaker
absolutely absolutely it does and again you know and I think people understanding that we really do hold those things in our body and it can and just what you said impact us physically when we don't process through that in healthy ways so it is so important to to understand it but then do the work to help process and move through it but also move through it in your own time in your own space in those moments where you where you do have hiccups when you do
00:55:02
Speaker
you know, feel like you're going backwards. Because I say it takes at least a year, I'll call it the year of first, takes at least a year to get through all the first when you're dealing with any loss, particularly. Those are the first, those are some first, because there's also going to be the first up, for example, the, the part of if somebody had a parent that died before they even got married.
00:55:23
Speaker
If your parent died before you became a parent, if your parent died before you got married, there's going to be a whole bunch of firsts that are going to come 30 years down the road. So that first year first may be the first birthday, the first anniversary, the first brother's day.
00:55:40
Speaker
the first holiday. Yeah, but we got some more time. Other ones, yeah. Oh, you're so right. I love it. Yeah. And it's understanding that the grief that it's going to come in stages. And so you'll get to a point where you're doing well and you have healed that point, but that spot. But to your point, when I get married and I remember that my dad's not here, my mom's not here for this wedding and how pain, so that may send me back and I'll need to process through that.
00:56:08
Speaker
when I have the kid and mom's not here, and I'll have to process that. Grandchild. Grandchild, yeah. You can be a grandmother after your parents have passed. Yes. The fact that it's like, wait, I'm now in the role that my parents had for my children. Yeah. That's, I mean, I get chills just thinking of that, of how emotional that could be. Like, I am now, I am now the grandma.
00:56:33
Speaker
You know, it's, you're absolutely right. And it's so funny you bring that up. I literally, when my daughter and son-in-law told me they were pregnant, literally my first thought went to my mother because in part was because my mother, I was exceedingly close to my mom, but I was also really close to my grandmother. My daughter was
00:56:52
Speaker
tied at the hip to her to my mom her granny so so my thoughts immediately went to my mother would be through the roof if she were here to know that her granddaughter was having a baby and so you do you have those moments it's it's so funny i'll share the truth because i was actually in the hospital when they told me and so they're taking they come in and they gary take me down for a CAT scan so i'm in there and i do
00:57:15
Speaker
Yeah, it was all good. It was all good. But it's funny story. They call, they tell me, we go through all this. And so, you know, I start crying. So they come and get me. I need to go down for a CAT scan or something. And so the young lady's pushing me. She gets ready to put me on the table. And I can't get it together. Well, she's thinking that, you know, I'm afraid or whatever the case may be. And she's like, are you okay, Ms. Barnard? I'm gonna be a grandmother.
00:57:42
Speaker
Just, yeah, but say it to your right to that point, but my thoughts just, they went straight to my mom in that moment. And you know, and that's a thing you would never know when you're meeting someone, where they are in their life, what, you know, what moment, what wave has hit them in that moment. And we don't know when the waves are going to hit either. So that wave hit you right in the middle of those cat scans.
00:58:12
Speaker
Now, Catherine, would you please say anything else and share with the audience that I have maybe not asked that you're like, there's school. I really cannot hang up this interview without saying these.
00:58:25
Speaker
words of wisdom. Oh wow this this is first of all this has been a great interview but I would just say to people whether you're dealing with grief or trauma whatever space that you find yourself in um I'm gonna use because I say this all the time you know what you said give yourself grace
00:58:41
Speaker
Give yourself space. Know that healing is possible. That is something that I definitely want to communicate. Healing is possible. Healing is hard work to get there, but it is so, so worth it when you get to the other side. So give yourself the grace in the room to do that.
Hope and Healing from Grief and Trauma
00:59:01
Speaker
Be intentional about doing the work, but know that it is absolutely possible and you are not even going to believe
00:59:08
Speaker
the life that you can have when you make it to the other side. So thank you so, so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. I know. Isn't it interesting we can have fun talking about grief and trauma? Yes. Yes, I say it all the time. It is so much fun. It is because we're both in our, if we say in Spanish, estamos en nuestra salsa, like in our sauce, like salsa, like a salsa, you know, like this is our salsa, like this is our,
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah, this is our jam. This is it. This is our jam. I love it. This is our jam. So it may seem like weird for others that for us, it's our jam. So I'm so grateful. And again, you can find Catherine Barner's website. You can go straight to CatherineBarner.org and be able to find her book.
00:59:59
Speaker
God, help me. I'm grieving, finding healing after a loss. You can find it there. And then social media wise, people can find you on which... Yeah. So I'm mostly hanging out on Instagram and LinkedIn. And so both of those are at Miss Cat Speaks. You can find me there. Yeah. Feel free to reach out. Send me a DM.
01:00:20
Speaker
and I'm glad to connect with any of you, like I said, always on the right side. DM us, DL, oh look at your life all over. Yeah, you know, you know, that is DM, DM, send me a message, you know. I love it. Thank you so much, Catherine, it's been an honor having you and so much fun getting to know you as well. You as well. Thank you.
01:00:46
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:01:15
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.