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The Makings of a "Safe Church"-- with Dr. Andrew Bauman (Pt. 2)
54 Plays17 days ago
It's an emotionally charged and yet super-important topic: to what extent have women in Christian churches in America experienced sexism, sexual harassment, and even forms of sexual abuse? Does the church have any "moral high ground" compared to the now-well-documented patterns of abuse of power by male leaders in Hollywood, the financial services industry, and the legal profession (just to name a few)?
Dr. Andrew Bauman, a former pastor-turned mental health counselor, heard so many stories in his counseling room of mistreatment of Christian women at the hands (and by the words) of male church leaders that he had to investigate further. For his Ph. D. dissertation, he conducted an extensive survey of women who had been in various roles in church leadership regarding their experiences with sexism, sexual harassment, and straight-up abuse.
The results were staggering... But we will let him tell you about that.
Moved by what he learned, and convicted regarding his own complicity in having contributed to church environments where women routinely felt similarly unsafe, Andrew decided to do something about it. Having written several powerful books aimed at helping Christian men live lives of greater sexual integrity and wholeness, he decided to use his platform as an author to amplify women's voices, and to shine a light on this heartbreaking failure in far too many of our houses of worship.
The result is his newly released book, Safe Church: How to Guard against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities. It's a thought-provoking and somewhat distressing read-- but there is hope. For Andrew writes not to excoriate or invalidate the church, but to rehabilitate it.
This book, which he joins Wendy and Chris to discuss in another two-part podcast, can help churches become more aware of these women's stories, and better equipped to guard against doing further harm.
Where to find Andrew's books and counseling practice:
- Personal Author Site: https://andrewjbauman.com/
- Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health & Trauma-https://christiancc.org/
- Safe Church Book: https://www.amazon.com/Safe-Church-against-Christian-Communities/dp/1540903974
(Andrew would also want to make sure you know that he also the husband of a previous guest, Dr. Christy Bauman, his partner in healing work with marriages that have experienced betrayal, infidelity, unhealthy relational patterns, and abuse.)
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Transcript
Introduction and Themes
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That Sunday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us His peace and His presence at times when He feels distant or even cruel.
Hosts' Background
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach. Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
00:01:07
Speaker
I want to bookmark coming back to the body thing in just a minute that you mentioned, the somatic aspect of things. ah But for you know the uninitiated, can you say a little bit about your methodology? This book, I think, is is extra helpful because you say straight out, this is not me trying to mansplain.
00:01:28
Speaker
the woman's experience. And I thought it was great to just to to name that. oh And rather what you've tried to do is amplify stories of women. Talk a little bit about what that process was like, the survey and and yeah how you went about it.
Survey on Sexism in Churches
00:01:45
Speaker
So I had over 2,800 women complete a survey and these women had worked in the church, right? So all denominations, 578 Baptists, um, 242 Pentecostals, 170 Presbyterians, you know, all in 104 Methodists. We have all these Lutheran, we have all these different, different denominations.
00:02:06
Speaker
So these are women who have worked in the church, right? Um, this is worked in the church. This is not just random experiences of attendees. volunteers courses okay So either professional or volunteer, right? Um,
00:02:20
Speaker
all the way, you know, from 18 to plus 65 plus. Now the problem of my survey was the majority was white. And so I would love to hear some more ethnically diverse studies, but it was over 94% white, um a mostly educated.
00:02:35
Speaker
And so we have all sorts of experience. I mean, I think it was 16% had over 25 years of experience in ministry, right? So we're talking from the front lines of people in ministry and their experience of sexism and abuse. And so some of the big stats that came out, and this is, again, me just using my trying to my privilege, my my power as a man in this field to say, hey, I want to hear what's going on because I've actually been part of the problem.
00:03:07
Speaker
but I worked in the church and I worked in an all-male-led church. And I like, what are women's experiences? Can we listen? Can we just stop um affirming ourselves and actually just listen to what women's experience were? So that's where it came out of.
00:03:20
Speaker
I had read a study and maybe 2018 about um women's experience in the tech field, which is a male-dominated space and their experience of sexism. And then that got me thinking, well, I wonder what this is like in the church. And so that's where that kind of came from. So this has been five years of work for me.
00:03:40
Speaker
82% of women out of the over 2,800 believe that sexism played a role in their church. Isn't that wild? yes Yes. 82%. 62% wouldn't be surprised if they heard a sexist joke from the pulpit.
00:03:56
Speaker
So women in the kitchen or women drivers, right? So these so-called jokes ah have been normalized by men in power. two which increase their acceptance and their occurrence.
00:04:09
Speaker
One woman wrote that sexist jokes that were inappropriate and sexual were so common. When I asked the male leaders if they'd tell less of them, I was told men will be men.
00:04:21
Speaker
And if I wanted to succeed in this profession, I needed to be okay with it. Well, and I wanted to add something in to amplify real quick, just from my background. I've been a practicing lawyer for 30 years, but I do educational workshops and we one of them is on sexual misconduct in the workplace. And yeah we've done it a ah much smaller scale, but I do some anonymous polling at the beginning of a workshop and I was in a state bar convention. I won't name the state.
00:04:49
Speaker
but we had about 100 people in the room and did an anonymous survey where we could see the live results on the screen of who's experienced either sexual harassment at work or we also talked about because lawyers get into a what's harassment and what's not.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah. OK, have you experienced you know, sharing of pornographic materials, inappropriate jokes, inappropriate advances, all that stuff. The numbers were staggering.
Sexual Misconduct in Professional and Church Settings
00:05:14
Speaker
They were just, you know, correlated very similar to yours.
00:05:17
Speaker
And we actually then let people anonymously tell, just say a ah quick burst about what happened. And the stories were jaw dropping. And we were able to say, look, this is the people in the room. This is not some abstract thing.
00:05:31
Speaker
These are the people that you can look at right now. We had a few people who were courageous telling their stories. And I say that just to, support, I think it's easy for us in the church to say, well, yeah, Hollywood's got a problem and the law's got a problem and banking and but it's harder to have that conversation. Hey folks, we think we should be different and better. It's, it's hard to confront the fact that we're not, isn't it?
00:05:53
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. When you look at yourself, it's just so much more difficult you know, to tell the truth. But sexist humor acts as a releaser of of prejudice.
00:06:04
Speaker
Like it literally points to, if your pastor's telling sexist jokes, it points to that he literally has, you know, aggressive feelings towards women and a negative attitude towards women.
00:06:18
Speaker
30, 35% of women, thirty thirty five percent of women um reported suffering from sexual harassment or some sort of sexual misconduct, or they answered that it was complicated.
00:06:30
Speaker
Like they, you know, so it wasn't a ah flat out. No, so that's 35.1%. point one percent So that's one in three women. Right. So these ah go ahead.
00:06:40
Speaker
ah You finished, but I wanted you to go into the ways you split sexism. You were using researcher's definition to divide it out. and I think that's helpful.
00:06:52
Speaker
There's all different forms of sexism. um You know, what is sexism? Prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping because of someone's sex. And there's, yeah, different types of sexism, ambivalent.
00:07:03
Speaker
You don't have to remind me all that benevolent, ambivalent. And hostile. Hostile, yep. And so to break down those forms of sexism, you realize like it's not just blatant in your face sometimes. It's way more subtle. And that's why many of us can buy into it or even think of it as, oh, this is okay.
00:07:23
Speaker
um Or this is somehow God honoring. When really it's a form of abuse. It's a form of... And the final, one ah one of the other big discoveries was just that 77.9% of women felt like their opportunities in ministry had been limited due to their gender because they were a woman. They couldn't advance in their career. So there's a firm glass ceiling in the evangelical church that must be shattered.
00:07:54
Speaker
Now, Andrew, what do you say to the listeners who say, well, I may not like that, but the Bible's clear. Yeah. So the Bible, um they think it's clear, right?
00:08:08
Speaker
And it has a lot of things to say about it, but the way it's been interpreted is trip pretty problematic, right? And so there's a chapter called the Problematic Biblical Text where I go through the biblical texts and actually talk through it, right?
00:08:23
Speaker
um So we can just take, we'll just take one scripture that's a fairly classic scripture. So you got, well, two We can do two. 1 Corinthians 14, 34, right?
00:08:36
Speaker
right women should be silent in churches for they're not permitted to speak but are to submit themselves as the law says they want to learn something let them go ask their own husbands Uh, since it's disgraceful for a woman to speak in church, you have that one.
00:08:49
Speaker
Uh, it's fairly classic kind of clobber text. And then you also first Timothy to 11, woman should learn in quiet with quietness and full submission. Do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man. Instead, she has to remain quiet.
00:09:02
Speaker
So you look at these texts and you're like, wow, this is, this feels so clear. Right. Um, and yet these passages have been used to silence, harm, control
Reinterpreting Biblical Texts
00:09:12
Speaker
women. Um,
00:09:14
Speaker
In the same passage, Paul asked women to talk out any issues with their husband, which was a radical idea. So rather than go and check with your husband, it actually is, this is a radical idea as partners and equals to discuss it with your husband, right? The normative practice taught by rabbis, what is better to burn the Torah than to teach a woman.
00:09:35
Speaker
the women Women were viewed as less than, but Jesus' teachings were radical. And so some of that 1 Timothy says, verse The word doesn't mean silent.
00:09:47
Speaker
It actually is Hashua, which means stillness. Stillness. So a woman should be quiet, actually should be a woman should be still.
00:10:00
Speaker
what like Do you hear the difference? And one means quieting women, and then it's interpreted quieting women for all time. And the other is women should learn in stillness, be centered in their bodies.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, stillness invokes like peacefulness and... yeah and And what we aim for when we talk with couples about how to have better conversations. Exactly. so You got to self-regulate. You got to deal with your own triggers.
00:10:25
Speaker
If you don't, then you may not be safe to have that conversation with the other spouse. Exactly. It changes the entire meaning, right, of the word Hashua, meaning stillness.
00:10:38
Speaker
um And then, you know, Paul uses the word um authority, right? which is authoritarian, which is a loose translation of a Greek word, the original word means abusing one's authority or misusing authority.
00:10:54
Speaker
So rather than a woman shouldn't have authority over a man, what if it is actually a woman shouldn't abuse her authority over a man? Right. So it's about misuse of.
00:11:04
Speaker
So that actually says the opposite is actually talking about mutual submission and right mutual sharing of power. But we shouldn't abuse our power. Right.
00:11:15
Speaker
The only time this word was used in the Bible related to unique situation that Paul was addressing directly to Timothy. So some of the research says that in the early Corinthians,
00:11:26
Speaker
first Timothy, these churches, there was a couple of women that were talking a lot. There was a couple of women and here's the beauty of it. actually think because they finally got so excited but that they had, that they had a seat at the table, that they were, that they could talk theology, in this patriarchal culture that they were like, yeah, like,
00:11:46
Speaker
Be quiet. like Stop it. like Stop interrupting. like We're trying to teach here. But it was actually the opposite because they finally had ah seat at the table. They were so excited to be treated as equals because they were, you know, Paul writes so much that they're co-workers, right? these They're partnering in ministry.
00:12:04
Speaker
In Romans 16, Paul writes, Priscilla was outstanding among the apostles. yeah right Other examples of women given prominent roles in scripture, Anna, who was named the prophet in Luke 2, 36.
00:12:16
Speaker
thirty six Philip had four daughters who prop prophesized in Acts 21, 9. Phoebe was a deacon in Romans 16. right Juna, i always say her name wrong.
00:12:27
Speaker
ah was described as an outstanding apostle in Romans 16, 7. These are examples, and yet what we've been given is the opposite of that. Whereas in Galatians 3, we are all, there's no Jew or Greek, no male or female. We're all one in Christ. What about that verse?
00:12:45
Speaker
right What about that? I love the way they've depicted it, too. We're big fans of The Chosen. i don't know if you watched that, but yeah they're showing the the female followers of Jesus who are, by the way, learning to read at all and learning to read the Torah because they haven't been able to.
00:13:01
Speaker
And they are just embracing it And like they've got great things to say. And Jesus is like, y'all come on along. Y'all are on the team, too. I'm not going to send you into the danger, you know, you know, where you might get killed.
00:13:14
Speaker
I really, you know, I don't feel great about sending the men there. But but yeah, you're on the team like the the harmony of that and the ease of that is is stunning.
00:13:26
Speaker
being said but But it points back to how Jesus operated. um Exactly. Exactly. Go
Body Work and Spiritual Growth
00:13:32
Speaker
ahead. can i So, you know, you've mentioned the body work and the somatic work. And ah want to move into that because these stories and these belief systems, they live inside our bodies.
00:13:45
Speaker
And we do dissect our bodies in ways to make life work. within our gender. And part of my own journey has been to get face to face with Jesus in a way that I believed he was for me personally, that there wasn't someone, a leader, a man he needed to go through, but that somehow he and I are actually one here, that he is my savior.
00:14:16
Speaker
My body, because I dissected my body from my mind, my body was often the block in my movement forward. I memorized all the scripture I could and repeated it my journal and listened to sermons, but that would not penetrate the body that was cut off down here.
00:14:36
Speaker
So it has taken me years of letting women tend to the parts of my body that are so terrified that yeah So that those parts of me could settle down enough to be willing to be in Jesus presence. I would say that I've had an avoidant attachment with God being, you know, want to come close, but also very, you know, afraid again, the arm out.
00:15:00
Speaker
So I'd love for you to give us a little insight on your approach to body work, what it's meant to you and what your hope and others engaging in that could be.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah. So just wanted to quickly touch on, I forget the actual study, but there was a study done a while ago on women who went through the purity culture and their study, their brains versus women who have been sexually assaulted.
00:15:27
Speaker
And many of the the brain scans were exactly the same. the char in you so So much of purity culture is actually trauma to women. Right. And so,
00:15:38
Speaker
Basically, when your body is linked to if you are a good Christian or not, right? And if you have been raped or you have gotten pregnant or something's fundamentally wrong with you, rather than actually you're the victim um and something is fundamentally wrong with the perpetrator, right? It's like you are going to have a difficult relationship with your body because you are trying to change the relationship with your body from being my body is the problem and you are disconnected because in a sense, your body is sin.
00:16:14
Speaker
So you've cut off from desire. You've cut off from really your intuition. You've cut off from your sensuality. Right. And so as a woman, yeah yes, like that is part of your journey moving forward.
00:16:25
Speaker
And it's a little different from, for men becoming in contact with their body again. But we, we often in our workshops, you know, we'll take the path of sensuality and experience tastes and experience smells and experience all sorts of sensual, you know, sound, do sound baths. And because so many men who have experienced deceptive and abusive pornography use have become disconnected from their bodies because if you told the truth that I'm actually participating in sex trafficking right now, supply and demand,
00:17:02
Speaker
I'm actually, you know, like they wouldn't be able to achieve orgasm if they actually told the truth that they're abusing women. Right. So they have to lie themselves and cut their bodies off.
00:17:14
Speaker
So they've become disconnected from their bodies. And so we use sensuality, the five senses, to ah begin to invite healthy sexuality and beginning that process of actually how do we become more sensual, um more real. So we do eye contact, we do all sorts of beautiful exercises to get us more into our bodies because that I believe is the way forward. God lives in our bodies. Yes.
00:17:41
Speaker
Well, I can speak to you to, you know, if there are any listeners who are skeptical or getting skittish at hearing the word sensuality and man in the same sentence, I got a chance to experience just a little taste of what you're talking about at the Samson Summit recently.
00:17:55
Speaker
um And it was powerful and it was even just the invitation to connect with your body. felt radical. And there's this part of me, but, but, you know, I'm still working through, but my body is bad because I somewhere along the way equated body is flesh and the flesh is one of the enemies, the world flesh, and the devil.
00:18:12
Speaker
Well, the flesh is a spirit. The flesh is a way that evil embodies itself. My body, our bodies are good, created good. and Jesus took on a body, which he did not have to do, but he did.
00:18:24
Speaker
And and you're that sensation experience, the looking in another guy's eyes for a while, the taste, it was it was weird. It was strange. But I watched a room of 200 men do this and come more. and the The feeling of stillness in that role and that room was palpable because people were present and were letting themselves be vulnerable with one another and and saying, this this is a good body. let's Let's experience our bodies in a good way.
00:18:53
Speaker
yeah and you You really demonstrated that that's transformative because we have used them in in a wrong way. We've used our eyes in the wrong way. We used our bodies the wrong way. But the answer is not to mortify the flesh, kill the body, deny yourself, go be like the monks and, you know, whip yourself and beat yourself or get a rubber band like we all did growing up, you know, and snap yourself and do something bad.
00:19:16
Speaker
It's welcome yourself into this body and experience sensuality in a good way. Exactly. Yes. Well said. And I remember growing up and longing to like, man, should i become a eunuch? Should I cut off my testicles?
00:19:31
Speaker
You know, like, because I don't want to do this. And yet I keep doing it and I can't stop. And this realizing like, what if? you know Romans 4.2 is correct, that you know the kindness of God leads to repentance. What if that is true?
00:19:45
Speaker
What if it's actually through our kindness, not through our self-abuse, not through our self-contempt and our hatred? What if we actually bless this body and we actually begin to experience kindness and we step into good desire?
00:19:59
Speaker
Well, and that feels like as a man trying to navigate this journey and with having to own my own wreckage and contribution to um you know the misogyny and the and the you know the wrong end of viewpoints, um this is a better conversation, I think,
00:20:16
Speaker
than what rises up in a lot of us is, well, not all men, not all churches. Come on. I'm one of the good ones. There's a desperation to say, so come on. i'm i'm I'm one of the ones you can trust. And that's that.
00:20:30
Speaker
I remember in reading the book and just having to go, I got resist that because I want to at times and and and it's harder, but it's more freeing. and And we get to more of that place of stillness to say, i am part of the problem more so than I realize.
00:20:47
Speaker
And and to I've got to to do something about this. In order to engage, I think I love what you point out. and i'm gonna read a portion from your book here. That's you wanna read it. I wanted to read it. You finish what you're saying, but I want to tell you why i want to read it.
00:21:01
Speaker
OK. Yeah. um But this idea of let me name how and I love how you invited us to do that in that group setting. Let's name what toxic masculinity is how it has impacted us, how we feel when we see that our sisters in the faith, our sisters in the church are suffering this way. And we didn't mention this, but after the statistics and the you know the overview of your survey, you give you go powerfully into the details of certain stories.
00:21:32
Speaker
And I just want to say those are compelling too. i wanted We wanted to break stuff. And yeah throw things when you hear some of the stories that women say, no, this is what people actually said to me when you know this happened.
00:21:44
Speaker
Those are compelling as well. But the answer is not, again, to say, well, they're just terrible. Let's go kill them. But rather, what have I done? How I been part of this? and and And we really will have better conversations about the bigger subject if we do that, that work.
00:22:02
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. And then realizing, okay, why are you defensive? Like we got to ask ourselves if you're feeling defensive or reactive. Okay. Why tell me, like, let's just be curious about what, what are you protecting?
00:22:16
Speaker
Right. What are you scared of? Because what I found is it's actually mostly the insecure men who are defensive and reactive, but the ones who know who they are, the ones who are not threatened.
00:22:29
Speaker
Right. I remember, um dating, Christy, my wife, for the first time, and my pastor friend meeting Christy for the first time. And he said, pulled me aside, he said, Andrew, don't don't you want more of like a helpmate?
00:22:42
Speaker
You know, like somebody to support you in your work, ah your ministry? Because he knew I had big goals and dreams. And then I sat there for a second and I thought about it. and I was like, actually, no.
00:22:54
Speaker
Actually, well want I want a woman who's really driven who's challenges me because I know I have a strong personality and I can dominate and I can bulldoze people.
00:23:04
Speaker
And I need a woman who's strong that can take me on. Wow. That's actually what I need um rather than just a submissive, you know, kind of doormat, um you know, which again, back to the Genesis helper, right? The helpmate, that word Ezer actually means savior.
00:23:23
Speaker
It's only used, you know, however many times it's used, and It's only a few, 16 times it's used to actually define God. Like actually a woman is actually going to be part of our salvation.
00:23:36
Speaker
And yet we translate it as hamburger helper. ah That's good. Yes. Thank you for that mindset as a woman who longs to have a voice and not serve up hamburger helper on the side.
00:23:53
Speaker
so thank Well, and I'll say one point on that and then go to your point. That's I found the longing of my heart is is you being alive, you having a voice, you saying, I see this and it's not your best self.
00:24:08
Speaker
And it's challenging to get to where you can have those conversations safely. because we're bringing so much of our story, even we'll say, reading your book and working through this to prepare to interview you, stuff is getting stirred up. And we were having to work through and go, whoa, where is that coming from? And why do I want to go that direction?
00:24:27
Speaker
And that's what we've loved about the story work. And you put in a plug for, you know, empathetic, emotionally present storytelling. it will It's helpful because you learn to get better at, okay, whoa, something's rising up. You get aware.
00:24:44
Speaker
And then you can do something different instead of just charging ahead and smushing each other. And so the invitation is to, to deeper voice for both people, right? You've got to figure out how to defuse the landmines or get around them and all so that that goodness can come out. And so it's hard work that sometimes you wish for the doormat. I wish somebody would just shut up and let me, you know, be a fool, but not really.
00:25:07
Speaker
I don't really. Right. So yeah, so Yeah. So as we close here, and this has been so good, so thank you. But um you know i I was set up not just to distrust men, but really in many ways to hate men because of a misuse of power.
Men's Role in Combating Sexism
00:25:27
Speaker
And so it's very easy for me to want to either run against them and take them out or to run away and be done with them.
00:25:38
Speaker
yes And in my deepest heart, that's not at all what I want. I want to be a woman who calls men and women to be good men and women.
00:25:50
Speaker
And you just don't want to be abused. Right, right. Exactly. I hate the misuse of power of all of us, by all of us. And God has been gracious to bring lots of male clients into my practice.
00:26:05
Speaker
And it has been a gift for me to get to love them in a redemptive way and to help them grow into who it seems God wants them to be. And that in turn makes me a better woman.
00:26:19
Speaker
And so I just, I consider it a gift, whereas the setup that evil created would be for me to enjoy taking them out when they came into my office, to be on a chopping block for every painful experience I've had with a man.
00:26:35
Speaker
And that is not at all where I find God leading me. And so I consider it very holy work. And That's why I wanted to read the invitation to men that you wrote, but I join you in it and and I just love your words.
00:26:51
Speaker
So it's near the end of your book, An Invitation to Men. I truly believe in men. And I'm going to say your instead of are because I'm not a man. I believe in your goodness.
00:27:04
Speaker
I believe in your ability to self-reflect, to break down and let go, to be humble, to change, to heal. Men, this is your invitation to join me in this conquest against sexism and abuse.
00:27:20
Speaker
It will be fierce, not in the bloody cinematic way we may think, but in a slow, courageous, non-flashy way. We will be doing our own hard therapeutic work, facing our shadows and telling the truth.
00:27:37
Speaker
first to ourselves and then to those around us. As we walk in deep integrity and courage, we honor God, which is to honor all who bear God's image. I just thank you for that. And I thank you for the book, your heart, the conversation. Christy has been a part of my healing.
00:27:55
Speaker
um a lot of my body work she's been a part of. um I believe deeply in it. And I'll echo that, man. Thank you so much for, i love you mentioned your big dreams and and that you even as a young person were thinking of what you would do and and how you would speak. And I love how you have let God wrestle you into an even better vision and a place where ah you can have an impact that is is truly more than you could have ah dreamed.
00:28:27
Speaker
um And my prayers are going with you, brother, as this book comes out. Thank you. Yeah, no, i'm I'm excited and I kind of feel like, yeah, I kind of feel like I might get annihilated a little bit. um And yet I feel like it's really important. So i appreciate your support and getting, sharing this book. And I think this work, this work around sexism and abuse and and women women is just so vital and it and it dovetails into my work of pornography and all that.
00:28:54
Speaker
It's just another kind of offset of of how we've been duped. And I want to speak speak truth to power.
Book Promotion: 'Safe Church'
00:29:02
Speaker
Well, before we go, will you let people know how they can find you? I know you're bi-coastal, but you're in North Carolina part of the time.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. you can reach out. Our our website is christiancc.org. That's kind of our main business page, christiancc.org.
00:29:20
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You can get the book, Safe Church. Got it right here, Safe Church on Amazon. It comes out January 21st. And then i blog at andrewjbauman.com as well.
00:29:33
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Okay. Thanks so much and best to you. We really appreciate it, man. Good to be with you. eden God bless
00:29:43
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The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling, PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
00:29:54
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Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:30:10
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and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net.