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Is Kink Feminist?
67 Plays4 months ago
Can kink and feminism align, or do power dynamics clash with feminist ideals? In this episode, we explore how consent, agency, and pleasure shape kink and power dynamics. We go over how kink being anti-feminist is a myth and what a healthy kink dynamic looks like.
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Transcript
Introduction to Kink and Feminism
00:00:00
funwithsexpodcast
Hi, this is John. And I'm Natalie. And this is the Fun with Sex podcast. Today we're going to be talking about and discussing kink and feminism. I already discussed this topic a little bit earlier with Lola when she was my dad guest, but this is the first time that we're going to give in an entire episode to this conversation and not just the last five minutes.
00:00:24
funwithsexpodcast
on a more general episode about power about kink so just as a reminder or for new listeners can you quickly define what does kink mean to you so kink um is a word that encompasses BDSM which is the act of bondage domination submission sadism and masochism so it's people part ticket partaking in acts sexually that are outside of the norm. So things like paddles, whips, ties and shibari, things like that. I think when people are discussing about kink and feminism, they're not talking about people who have like the other variety of kinks and fetishes.
Power Dynamics in Kink: Reality vs. Pop Culture
00:01:13
funwithsexpodcast
I think they're mostly just talking about ah power exchange dynamics. Yeah. And I think that like you can almost
00:01:23
funwithsexpodcast
center their discussion on power dynamics that exists between cis men and cis women in heteronormative relationships. I think that's normally like where the conversation lies when it comes to discussing feminism and kink.
00:01:40
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And I think it's really that these people have not been in a kink community and they haven't been involved in the kink world. So they're kind of seeing things through the lens of like, what is kink and pop culture? So they're picturing 50 shades of gray where or the words simify yeah there's no conversations about consent. There's no negotiation where the sob is.
00:02:05
funwithsexpodcast
affirming what they want to happen to
Consent and Equality in Power Exchange
00:02:07
funwithsexpodcast
them. Before we start getting into the role of consent in this conversation, first, can you define what a power exchange is for people who their only familiarity with this could be from pop culture in the media? Yeah, I think where a lot of people don't understand a power exchange is they're not viewing it as this kind of mutual agreement and somebody willingly giving their power, they're kind of viewing it as somebody just coming in and grasping someone's power away and dominating them. um The sub is as active of a participant in the dynamic as the Dom is and they are willingly exchanging their power because that gives them pleasure, that gives them joy, that gives them fulfillment. And I think what people miss a lot is that the term power exchange means that
00:03:00
funwithsexpodcast
both people originally must come from a place of power to make it king and to make it consensual going into that next. If one person inherently already has more power and they can coerce the other person into this dynamic, it's no longer king, it's just abuse. yeah But the difference is the power exchange says to like, hey, I am willingly submitting to you because I want to, I'm giving you this power temporarily and I can take it back anytime that I want.
00:03:29
funwithsexpodcast
And I think there's also power in that. I know there's like a lot of like talking points that people use where they're like the sub holds all the actual power. And I don't like that because like a lot of subs that you talk to say that like, well, I don't want the power. But I do think that there is some importance in reminding people that the person who was submitting is choosing to submit. They're willingly saying that like, I want to give up this power to you knowing that I can take it back whenever.
00:03:56
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And I think with that too, it's not an all or nothing thing. And it, it's not something where you're just willingly or unwillingly just going into a 24 seven dynamic. And all of a sudden this person has all this control over you and you're like, wait, what's happening? You know, it's, you're negotiating it. So there may be aspects in your life where you're like, Hey, I would really love for you to just make these decisions and be in control there.
00:04:26
funwithsexpodcast
But there's other aspects where I'm not going to do that. Could you take a second and define negotiations in the kink context for people who are not as familiar with the vocabulary that you're using? Yeah, you know, so negotiations are something that happens outside of a kink space and outside of a kink role. So that's kind of where like, as the submissive, you have to be a little bit more of a decision maker.
00:04:51
funwithsexpodcast
and kind of outside of your subspace so that you can negotiate what you want to happen. So a negotiation can happen for a particular scene.
Kink, Non-Monogamy, and Relationship Boundaries
00:05:01
funwithsexpodcast
The DOM will be like, hey, you know, I want to house X, Y, and Z these toys. dot--dada da And it can also happen with the 24 seven dynamic to actually kind of making a full blown negotiation of the things you want to yield your power on to the DOM.
00:05:20
funwithsexpodcast
And more generally, in sexual circumstances, the word negotiation normally just means communication. And you sit down and you explicitly say the things that you're comfortable with, the things that you're not comfortable with, the things that you're willing to try. And while it originally its comes from a kink context in that world that really has a strong emphasis on consent, negotiations are spread to non-monogamy, group play, and even couples that really prioritize consent in the relationship, they have negotiations around boundaries and what they want the relationship to look like. And I think that's the important thing about kink is that kink is only sometimes sexual, but it's always relational. Yeah. What does that mean to you? I mean, that's the thing. You know, it's a conversation I really think about a lot being both kinky and non-monogamous.
Misunderstandings and Structure in Kink Dynamics
00:06:15
funwithsexpodcast
Like,
00:06:17
funwithsexpodcast
The example I use is I think people, especially men on dating apps who aren't in the kink world think, oh, she's a sub. She's just this like submissive little girl who will do whatever I say. And I'm like, not to you. You're not my Dom. Like when someone is my Dom, I have the utmost respect to them and trust in them. So I will listen to them and allow them to lead. But some random man, like, no, I'm not just like doing whatever you say. And I think that like, Dom sub and like power dynamics in general are just another way to organize relationships. We all have ways that we use to organize relationships.
00:07:00
funwithsexpodcast
And kink one just puts a name to it. And also it puts a general practicing guideline on how to organize power dynamics. But the reality is that like most relationships, whether kinky or not, whether romantic or non exist in some type of power dynamics. And like, that is just the idea of being humans. And you see it all the time, even in the outside world, when people aren't in kink dynamics, like there's just, yeah, like you'll like,
00:07:29
funwithsexpodcast
meet some people where they're just like, I never want to pick the restaurant we eat at. I always want my partner to do it. I just want them to make that decision or like think about it with finances. There's a lot of couples where one person really has a deep understanding of finances. So they just have control over that. And the other person is just kind of like in the passenger seat. And I think this is where society is catching up to where the King community was a long time ago.
Gender Roles and Power Shifts in Kink
00:08:00
funwithsexpodcast
As women start achieving more, this is in the context of cis relationships, as women start achieving more economic and political and social power, you're starting to see more women led households and women led relationships. And you're seeing more men take a comfortable backseat role in these relationships. Whereas you want to see that as publicly, say 30, 40, 50 years ago. But the thing is the place where you could see a lot of fem led,
00:08:30
funwithsexpodcast
Sis head relationships was in the king space I mean like the film Dom is not just a moniker or just something that happens in pop culture There's a lot of relationships where dominant women Would go to king spaces because that's where they could show their true personality and that hey, I'm a leader I like to take that role in our relationship and a lot of more submissive men who weren't Comfortable being submissive in greater society could find comfort submitting to a femme person and a king contacts And you also see the inverse of that a lot too nowadays where there's a lot of women where they're like, you know, they're just like killing it in their career. They probably have multiple degrees, have fought tooth and nail to get where they are. And now they're in this position of power where they have to be on at all times, making all these decisions.
00:09:22
funwithsexpodcast
giving people orders, being a leader. And when they come home, they're just like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to make a decision. I just want my partner to be in that leader role so I can just kind of like take a back seat. And I think that's where the context of consent is really important. The idea that all these people are consenting to these dynamics that they're getting themselves into. And I think just because you label it kink,
00:09:49
funwithsexpodcast
doesn't, again, negate the fact that power dynamics assists between people all the time. there's very few if If you think about it, honestly, there's very few relationships, whether romantic or platonic, where both people hold 50-50 power over all contexts, and with every conversation and every decision, normally some person has a little bit more sway or say when it comes to decision-making, and that's kind of like what kink is, but kink, again, creates healthier Mechanisms to set boundaries and communications than just the general public I guess like if I was arguing with you and use the consent argument, I would tell you well Consent doesn't exist in a vacuum Yeah, and how would you respond to
Consent, Societal Norms, and Kink's Challenge
00:10:34
funwithsexpodcast
that? Or do you want me to elaborate on what I mean by that? Yeah, I would elaborate a little bit well the idea that
00:10:40
funwithsexpodcast
When people consent to something, they consent to it because they are socialized by culture and society to view that they should fit in a less certain role. And just because they're consenting to it now, that doesn't mean that it's good for them or they know that it's healthy for them. They may just be participating in cultural conditioning.
00:11:05
funwithsexpodcast
I mean, I think with that there's also like, you're almost just kind of assuming when we're discussing a woman in a hetero relationship that they're not a free agent. And of course I'm talking outside of somebody who's actually being like emotionally and psychologically abused. Um, but you know, like we do have the power to think critically and unpack and ask ourselves like,
00:11:33
funwithsexpodcast
Do I really wanna do this or does society just make me wanna do this? And the thing I would say to those people as well is, okay, if all of us women who are subs, if our desire to be a sub is just some kind of like conditioning by society, how do you explain the origins of the leather community, whereas predominantly gay men, how were they you know, in the 1940s when the way they were socialized was to be hyper masculine and all that kind of stuff. It's like, how do you explain some of those men wanting to be subs? And I think that like what I would add to the conversations that a lot of times this argument almost comes off as like infantilization.
00:12:22
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah, the idea that these people can make informed decisions under their own willpower and they need to be coached Or led and the thing is like like you said, so what about the gay men? Who's like a sob to another gay man or a woman who's a sub to another woman? or like a man who's a sub to a woman and like the scrutiny of that argument doesn't hold true to all these other people who Willingly feel like personally that they prefer to submit in a relationship even though that that's not how they've been a socialized to Participate in these relationships, especially queer relationships where they're not really socialized to have the same gender role and power dynamics I think that it would be stupid of me to say that like yeah gender roles and power dynamics have nothing to do in kink dynamics, especially when you have the sis hat man and sis
Gender Norms and Role Choices in Kink
00:13:14
funwithsexpodcast
hat woman. And I think that those couples probably need to do a little bit more to make sure that they're not burdened by cultural expectation and gender norms. But what I will say is that like that also doesn't only exist in the kink world. Yeah, there's a lot of couples where the more an assist relationship, the man takes the leader role and the woman takes a more submissive role. And that it's not, they don't label as a kink relationship. There's no formal power dynamic exchange, such as the role that they fall into. Whereas I think in kink relationships, you have to actively choose these roles and have that like questioning yourself before you go into it versus like a non-kink heteronormative relationships. People just kind of like fall into these like transactional gender role relationships. If that makes sense.
00:14:06
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah, and to me, participating in kink is very in line with third wave feminism. I mean, I'm thinking and a true kink dynamic where you're, you know, really self reflecting, you're negotiating, you're doing research, you're seeking out education. In that true ah breakdown of doing things, it's the most feminist thing because you're actually asking yourself, what do I truly want? What do I truly desire? And you're not putting expectations on yourself that like, oh, you know, women aren't supposed to be super freaky. Women aren't supposed to be into sex. You're actually asking yourself, what do I really want?
Bodily Autonomy and Desire Exploration in Kink
00:14:51
funwithsexpodcast
And I think that's like the really important part that people miss is that kink and other sex positive communities, whether it's non-monogony,
00:15:01
funwithsexpodcast
kink fetish or just generally like unpacking sexual shame forces everybody to have a bit of bodily autonomy that the general public doesn't have when it comes to sexuality, especially sexuality in the context of the United States. Because kink forces you to say, hey, I am a sexual being, I have these desires.
00:15:23
funwithsexpodcast
ah What does that mean about me? I need to unpack that. I need to work through this and I need to think critically about that. Whereas most American adults live their entire lives without conceiving of themselves of a sexual being as a sexual being, even if they deeply desire very different types of sex. And a lot of times what that turns out to is like a lot of repression and a lot of acting things out in the dark or in unhealthy ways. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say is that when you are exploring power exchanges,
00:15:55
funwithsexpodcast
in the sphere of kink, you're doing it in the healthiest way versus, okay, let's say theoretically, I'm a woman who's socially conditioned to want to be submissive. If I just go out and kind of allow people to dominate over me outside of a kink dynamic, that's very different than when you're in a kink dynamic and you have a Dom who's educated, who's educated on aftercare, who understands the emotions that come with submission, who knows how to care for you in that role specifically. Yeah, and I think that that's one thing that like Kink has that like I think a lot of cis hat relationships don't have and going back to that as the communication.
Communication and Satisfaction in Kink Relationships
00:16:40
funwithsexpodcast
I think to say that like, hey, part of my negotiation is that like, I demand aftercare, or I demand that like my pleasure be centered. They did a study on
00:16:51
funwithsexpodcast
women survey, women were surveyed on where they sexually satisfied with their partner. This is in a partner where the partner is a man and women in kink relationships survey at a much higher rate of saying that they were more satisfied by their masculine partner than people in non kinky relationships. And I think it's because in these power dynamics, you have this open line of communication to say that like, Hey,
00:17:19
funwithsexpodcast
Even though that I'm the sub, I still want my pleasure centered. And I also think that Kink does something that's really cool that you don't see in a lot of heteronormative relationships where Kink and a lot of times BDSM decenters the penis and the sexual encounter. I mean, it brings in toys, it brings in vibrators, it brings in the different acts of submission. Whereas a lot of heteronormative sex is, I'm going to stick my penis into your vagina, which is why the orgasm gap is so big between are women who have sex with predominantly men and women who have sex with women and women who have sex with both with women who only have sex with men being the lowest, the lowest category for orgasm rate in the United States compared to any other demographic. And it's because in a lot of cis hat relationships, the center is
00:18:11
funwithsexpodcast
The penis, the penis defines if something is sex or not. Whereas in kink situations, what happens in a bedroom, everything, the entire scene is defined as sex. Yeah, totally. And I think that's like the super important part. If I was pushing back again, would you say that the kink community is dominated by white cis men? If I was just saying like, I got all my information from kink from 50 shades of gray in 360. And I was like, well, when I see a King couple, what I see is a cis white guy and his cis whites up. I wouldn't say so. ah The King communities I've been a part of, I mean, I just feel like you see every different demographic represented. You see queer couples where they're the same gender.
00:19:07
funwithsexpodcast
um You see a variety of races and ethnicities. um Of course, there are those archetypal, 50 shade of gray, always wears a three-piece suit, white says straight doms, but they're definitely not the majority. And I think that like that's my issue with a lot of people who criticize King communities is they never do it honestly or they never have engaged in King communities.
Diversity and Misconceptions in Kink Communities
00:19:33
funwithsexpodcast
Because like from my experience, King communities are some of the most Diverse and status quo challenging spaces that I've ever been a part of Thus you see more femme and non-binary Led relationships than you will ever see in the outside world you see more queer relationships more bisexual relationships in a way that like challenges the societal understanding of like sexuality and sexual orientation and I think that
00:20:04
funwithsexpodcast
Again, a lot of people's criticisms of the King community comes from absorbing content that was created by the media to make money yeah and not by people who are involved in a King community because like bridging this over to like porn and like other dot content.
00:20:24
funwithsexpodcast
i Remember like a lot of people criticized Pornhub for like the way that Pornhub represented sex and exploited people online But the reality is that like Pornhub wasn't ran by sex positive people Pornhub was ran by investors in tech bros. I was like hey what algorithms are gonna make the most money for us as fast as possible and That's the same way of like 50 shades of gray that movie wasn't made by people who are in the key community because there wasn't things in negotiation. There wasn't talks of about consent. It was made by people who are trying to make money and make something visually appealing and visually shocking. Whereas a scene where the dominant sub sits down for 10 minutes and talks about like her boundaries and like financial domination. What does that mean? And how can we make this more equitable? You lose your audience. It's not fun to watch, yeah but that's the nitty gritty nuances that makes kink special.
00:21:23
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. Do you have any closing thoughts?
Understanding Kink's Benefits and Safety Practices
00:21:27
funwithsexpodcast
I think that, like, if I had to say something, I would talk on, like, repression. Any idea that shaming people for the kinks that they have aren't going to stop people from wanting to practice kink, you just do it ah more unhealthy? That's what I want to talk about with you who have some people to talk about. Go for it. I think something I would also go into as well is these people who speak very broadly about Oh, kink is not good for women. It's holding us back. They also aren't very educated on all the kinks out there and what kink is. Like, if you actually start talking to most subs about, like, who are in 24-7 Dynamics, like, oh, you have people outside of that here. Oh, my God. You have rules and tasks you have to do every day. If you actually talk to most subs, it's stuff like drink water, eat three meals a day. It's stuff that
00:22:22
funwithsexpodcast
is good and healthy for the sob. And then, you know, I think people are also just super uneducated on not just the male sob, but everything that goes into that. I mean, there are so many white straight cis men where their kink is they just really want a femdom to overpower them, especially because that's not something they get in the real world.
00:22:49
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah, we have a friend who's like a film Dom and she talks about it like how many frat bros that she like has in like cut cages and like his friends have no idea and that's why I think that like it's important to normalize that kink and power exchanges Come in all different forms because I think it gets more masculine identifying people the comfort ability to say that like Maybe I do enjoy subby and one thing that like I forgot to mention that's like super important I don't have any data on this, but like in my experience, most people I've met aren't strictly a sub or a dom. They identify as like a switch, mass people or femme people, and the idea that like depending on the mood I'm in or the relationship with the this specific person, I'm either more dominant or more submissive. I've known people where like they switch mid-sex or like they switch depending on who needs to be taken care of in this very moment.
00:23:48
funwithsexpodcast
And I think that like that's important to acknowledge when you talk it about socialization because socialization does not explain why either one of these gender roles i and a very heteronormative relationship would be open to switching and exchanging powers in this different way. yeah But like going back to my general point that I want to end in is that shaming people and trying to get them to repress what they're into doesn't stop them from being into it.
00:24:15
funwithsexpodcast
All it does is makes them not have access to resources on how to do it healthily and makes them do things in the dark, which makes it more likely for them to get hurt or exploited by bad people in a BDSM scene. And like anyone who's worth two cents would admit that there are abusers in the community, but there's abusers in the real world.
00:24:41
funwithsexpodcast
And disproportionately there's probably more abusers outside of the kink community that people exist. That doesn't make kink bad. Yeah. And the difference is that if you're existing in a kink community and it is a good community, which, you know, generally most of the people I've met care a lot about safety and consent. You know, you'll be met with validation and people will be there for you and they will not want to be involved with this abusive person.
00:25:11
funwithsexpodcast
yeah I mean, that's all I basically have to say. yeah for you Thank you. This has been the final sex podcast and have a nice day.