An Artpop Talk with Beatrice Levine: Creator of Culture Quota

Transcript

Speaker: Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna. We've met with Women's Art Wednesday. We've met with Anna Blake. We've met with Ben Levy, who has joined us for EPT's Happy Hour. And today we're sitting down with Beatrice Levine, creator of Culture Quota and Glamour and Honey. Gianna, this TikTok and content creator

Speaker: group might be like our Oceans 8 squad, and Beatrice truly makes us feel ready and complete for the future art heist. Let's get ready to art pop talk with the minicailing of this group, Beatrice. Hello, hello, everyone.

Speaker: Gianna, this truly was the APT episode that we have been waiting for. I am just so glad that it was finally brought to fruition and it's such an amazing conversation. I cannot wait for everyone to hear it.

Speaker: I completely agree. And because of that, we are going to jump right into today's episode. We cannot wait for you to meet Beatrice. Before we do so, let us introduce her and tell you a little bit about our special guest. Beatrice is an art historian and content creator on Instagram and TikTok.

Speaker: In 2015, while studying abroad in Rome, she met her best friend and now business partner, Alison Woods. Together, they combined Beatrice's love for art history and Alison's love for social media to create Culture Quota, a one -stop shop on Instagram that celebrates the intersection of art and pop culture.

Speaker: Beatrice eventually graduated with her B .A. in Art History from La Loya University Chicago with a minor in Women, Gender and Sexuality Studies and a second minor in Classical Studies. As Rina Sueyama says, quote, hello LGBT.

Speaker: Her undergraduate thesis entitled we become legendary art historical references in the visual culture of 21st century pop and hip hop, examine the visual synthesis of art history and the visual culture of the western and eastern music industries. That's right, she was a BTS stan

Speaker: before you were and she is going to let you know and it's fabulous. Years later after noticing the lack of chic affordable art history merch, Alison and Beatrice came together again and launched glamourandhoney .com giving culture quota its own line. Originally just a place for Beatrice to make all her wildest art history apparel dreams come true, glamour and honey's art history apparel has become

Speaker: a culture quota fan favorite, especially the Artemisia crew neck and Caravaggio basic tote. All right, everybody, we are going to take a little break. And when we come back, we are going to art pop talk with Beatrice.

Speaker: Okay, everyone, we have something very exciting to share with you. If you follow us on social media, you might have seen us share our items from Glamour and Honey. Glamour and Honey partnered with Culture Quota to create a light of March created for art historians. And you can use code artpoptalk

Speaker: all caps and no spaces for 10 % off on your order. I have two glamour and honey sweatshirts right now and I love them so much and also not to mention talk about a great conversation starter. When I wore my Mona sweatshirt out and about the other day someone stopped me and said oh I love Mona and I wasn't expecting her to be that small. So cute because let's face it once a museum goer discovers that Mona is a tiny little painting that is the first of many startling discoveries to make on their art historical journey.

Speaker: Any other items would also make a fantastic gift for that special art history lover in your life. So again, you can visit glamourandhoney .com for 10 % off your order with code artpoptalk. You can find that link to their site in this episode's description or the link on our social media.

Speaker: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the show. We are just truly honored. This recording is one for the art and pop history books. With our special guest today, it is such a dream to finally have you here on Art Pop Talk, everyone listening. I'm sure already knows who you are because we're literally obsessed with you. However, would you do us the honor of introducing yourself to our listeners

Speaker: who may know or may not know about Culture Quota, the fan club here on APT. And we'd like to start off with how you came to find this path of art history and popular culture that we know and love on our pop talk as well.

Speaker: Hi, it's a dream for me to be here too, because I don't know if you guys saw, but I did post on TikTok the other day that I shipped myself with both of you. Yes, we did see. We did see and by I say we, I mean me because I am the one who is hanging by a thread.

Speaker: on tiktok currently but we are going to dive into it because you give me hope and i'm very excited to hopefully try to make some tiktok content with you after this episode airs. But not to get too derailed but i'm Beatrice i don't think a lot of people know that that's my real name

Speaker: I got my culture quota on the internet. I think I was of the internet at the time where it was cool to like not have your name out there and just like be behind your username. I think that comes from like a Tumblr sort of like 2014 -15 vibe. But my name is Beatrice. I'm an art historian. I have my bachelor's degree in art history from Loyola University Chicago and I started culture quota I want to say 2016.

Speaker: And it was just an Instagram. And the idea behind it, I don't know if anyone remembers this time on Instagram, cause like our, you know, trend cycles are so short now, but an image and then like long text captions were really popular at the time. So the idea behind the account was we would give you some kind of work of art from any place in art history. And I think the format used to be like what it is, why it's important, and then how you can impress your friends this weekend.

Speaker: So that was sort of the idea, was like giving educational and valuable content. And then as things sort of started to shift, and I started writing my thesis, which was on the intersection of art history and pop culture, it became much more about sort of like comparisons we found in art history and in pop culture. Personally, how I got to like the, what was it, coalesce of the two, the coalescence of the two, whichever that word.

Speaker: I hate to be like, it goes back to my childhood. But like it does have to go there. So I had a really unique upbringing. I grew up in Germany, which when I say that, I feel like it's like record scratch. This was not like American Ashley, like passport in Paris moment.

Speaker: I think whenever, like whenever people hear that, they think you were like Madeline in Paris eating bonbons. I'm not saying I grew up on the Eastern Bloc by any means, but we were there because my dad was in the military. Like, okay, it's nothing crazy. But I actually spent most of my time growing up there in a town called Heidelberg that was one of the few places in the war that wasn't bombed. So when you're stationed in Germany, a lot of times you get stationed in a place that was rebuilt after the war. So it looks like Cleveland.

Speaker: like it's not like all their old it's very subtle their old infrastructure is gone i fortunately did not grow up in a city like that so i grew up really surrounded by art and history every day and i'm not going to act like i was some prodigy and was like oh my god

Speaker: I love the Romanesque church downtown, but when it becomes right when you're like in middle school, like there was a Claris on our like main street. That was what I was concerned about at the time. But when it's everywhere and you're confronting history all the time, physically, tangibly, it really just just sort of soak into you.

Speaker: Part of that too was when we would go on vacations as a family, my parents weren't sure when we would have our last assignment there, right? So they really prioritize taking us like to the big museums, to the big cities, and making sure we saw them even like repeatedly. Like we did Italy multiple times. And again, not going to act like I was some kind of savant. Like one that was like my biggest, darkest secret was when I was 13, I had a chance to go to the Sistine Chapel and I was like, I really don't want to wait in that line.

Speaker: And I chose not to go to the Sistine Chapel. I mean, when you're that age, it's like the same thing as like waiting in line for like a roller coaster ride. You're like, I don't know if this Harry Potter ride is really worth it. Like all you've done for 13 years. It's like, okay, like this time, I don't know if like this is the one I want to see. And so my dad took me to like a gelato ria and we sat down and, you know, played uno or something in a gelato, which is a different kind of cultural experience that was very valuable.

Speaker: but you know as an art historian shameful to know that you made that decision at one point in your young adult life and then the other thing about growing up in Europe that is very bizarre is pop culture is really everywhere there and I don't think people unless you live there it's hard to understand but like their MTV at the time when I was growing up there in like the early 2000s was still MTV there were still music videos and they would play like

Speaker: something from the 70s, something from the 90s, and then like the latest thing back to back to back. So you were kind of exposed to a litany of pop culture. And then it was everywhere. Like the McDonald's there had flat screens that played music videos. So I became very obsessed with them. I think just by nature of they were really accessible to me. And then on top of that,

Speaker: my parents, my mom studied art history. So she really had a value for like the museums and aesthetics and things like that. And she's going to pass out. I hope she's not mad. I'm saying this is not anything like she's not, she's a good mom. But my parents were not sticklers for censorship. So I'm not saying we were watching Pulp Fiction when we were like seven, but they were willing to let us explore things, books, movies, TV shows, whatever that interested us within reason. And they didn't

Speaker: put them on some kind of like explicit pedestal. You know, we were able to sort of take in the cultural item and discuss it with them if we needed to. So that's kind of how all of those things ended up intersecting for me, because I didn't really, I didn't declare my art history major until I was a freshman. I thought it was going to be like a journalism major or something. So once I left Europe and kind of realized how important that part of my life was to me, art history was like the vehicle to get me there once I was away from Europe, basically.

Speaker: And we love it. We also love to know the arts is equally as important in your life as traumatizing as it is from such a young age. So definitely we stand a traumatized art history queen. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, there is some some interesting stuff out there.

Speaker: I mean, and I was like, I really was into some weird stuff. Like, I don't think, I watched, you know, Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette when I was like, that came out when I was like 13 or 14. And do you guys remember like the Teen Vogue coverage of it all? And that was like so influential to me. I don't think it nearly would have had as much of an impact on me if I hadn't been living in a part of Germany that was basically on and off Germany or France, like depending on the year.

Speaker: You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to also hear about this idea of censorship because we talk about that so much, the parent -child experiences within museums. But of course, our experience with that growing up in America comes from that American -centric perspective. So I wonder if even just before we even jump into our next question, if you can talk about

Speaker: Is there a different kind of museum censorship, parent -child relationship in Europe that you experience differently in America? That's a really good question because now I work with parents in my job because I work in visitor experience.

Speaker: Definitely, there are things available for kids like I'm sure we've all seen like those kids audio tours that maybe steer kids towards looking at some objects versus others that might be more challenging, but I found my parents never

Speaker: wanted us to really partake in those. I think the only time we ever did one was at the Tate written. I don't know why, like my mom just got like, you know, grabbed by someone at the front desk and told like your kids should do this. But my parents were definitely, I mean, think about that. What we were doing, you know, we were kids are part of taking us to a museum to end the to have a nice dinner afterwards. Like what we were, we were being treated like many adults in a way that we were expected to, you know, engage.

Speaker: And I think they just let us walk through the museum.

Speaker: And they didn't attempt to explain things that they couldn't explain. I think it's the other thing a lot of parents do that kind of trips people up, especially with art, is trying to explain things that you don't have the knowledge to explain. And it's not saying the parent is uneducated or anything like that. But why is she new? I think a lot of parents would struggle with something even as simple as that. Whereas for us, it wasn't even a question because we'd been exposed to it for so long to see a nude person or a nude figure in a painting or a sculpture.

Speaker: we didn't even question it. So I do think it's about that kind of like early exposure and then letting kids sort of navigate it on their own. I just, one, I could talk to you for so much about you transitioning to guest services in museums, which is a role I've been in for quite some time. We do need to get to the next question that I'm dying for Bianca to ask you, but literally the thoughts in my brain, like already part two, I can't with you already.

Speaker: Truly, truly. So you did mention your thesis, which like I need to get my hands on a copy. Well, that's the way it should be. Like I would be expecting any differently. I don't think so.

Speaker: So you wrote it on the visual culture of 21st century pop and hip hop, which, quote, examine the visual synthesis of art history in the visual culture of Western and Eastern music industries. Fascinating.

Speaker: So I am curious if you could talk about your academic experience in bringing popular culture to the forefront of a very academic gated field that can often discount the impacts of popular culture in the moment. I was just explaining this to someone at dinner last night about how pop culture isn't taken seriously until someone at the top says it should be taken seriously, like with pop art. That's a very classic example.

Speaker: It's something we look back on and appreciate its significance now, but in the moment, it's really hard for a student who's interested in that to get the point across to someone who is completely uninterested in what's happening. So how did you navigate?

Speaker: heightening that importance of popular visuals and how was that received? That's such a great question. I feel like it's a question that only another art historian could ask or understand that that was even an issue for me. I was really nervous to propose that topic. It came from a class I took at Loyola with a woman named Robin Miracle, who's a great art historian. And the idea of the original project before the thesis was a group project like

Speaker: doing a sort of like hypothetical exhibition.

Speaker: So the name of it was like a take on culture quota. It was even predated culture quota. It was like, oh, culture pop or something like that. And the idea behind it was getting as many of the works that were in music videos. So things that are actually in music videos to this exhibition space and then projecting the music video alongside them. And then if you couldn't get something like the PA TA, obviously, which is referenced a lot,

Speaker: To the exhibition you could use a like a projector of it and then also having sort of like some kind of fun tongue -in -cheek things like that picture of Lindsay Lohan passed out. You know in the car where she looks exactly like Bernini's exo -CSA Theresa like acknowledging meme culture, you know, if you will.

Speaker: And she was really supportive of it. And then I said something to her. She really liked it. And I said something to her like, I think I'm actually going to write my thesis on it because I knew that project was coming up. And she kind of did give me a like, hmm, like, I wonder how that's going to go for you. And I was so lucky because the, my thesis advisors, Dr. Wasati, Dr. Dunn, Dr. Dunn is retired now.

Speaker: Dr. Azazi is still there at Loyola. They were so cool about it. Very cool. And I was with some really great other female art historians in that class who were doing archival research and deep feminist thinking and frameworks. And I'm like, here is a picture of Beyonce.

Speaker: They were really supportive. And I think part of it was when I was really passionate about it. And when I presented the idea to them, I was really far along in it. Like I had all my ducks in a row of like, this is my intention. This is what I'm going to answer. And like here, I already had comparisons from that project. Like I remember the first day, you know how it is like the first day of any class, we're sitting there in a room. There's like 12 of us. It's awkward and quiet. And they're like,

Speaker: Does anyone have any ideas for their thesis? And I'm like, okay, well, here I go. And I have like a bunch of slides and everyone's like, can Beatrice literally shut up for five seconds? Like, of course, she's got like a million slides and she's been working on it all summer. But they were really supportive of it. And I actually even halfway through the research,

Speaker: got to them and they knew about articles like I would bring articles to them and say hey like what do you guys think of this and they'd be like oh I was wondering when you were going to get to that so I you know I need to give them more credit if that makes sense like I thought I was doing something like totally new and foreign and they were actually very well versed in what I was doing and kind of where it sat in the field already so I thought that was really interesting that they were sort of further along than I even intended with the subject matter

Speaker: I'm trying to think, there were a couple of things that kind of came up. Like I did freak out halfway through and say like, is this an art history thesis? Like, you guys can tell me, like, is it a visual culture piece? Like, who can tell me if I'm like failing my whole degree? Like, is it a visual culture thesis? And they were like, no, because art history is the basis of what you're talking about.

Speaker: Because it was pulling out those images and talking about the relationship between art history and storytelling and the visual language that art history created that Taylor Swift, Kendrick Lamar, Jay -Z, Kanye West, Beyonce, Lady Gaga, as you guys know.

Speaker: are all still using to this day. And so I think that was really kind of what drove it home for them. I also had a couple of like really lucky things happen right as I was presenting. I think it was the week before I presented Kedrick Omar won the Pulitzer Prize. And most of the comparison images for him were from that album. They were from down

Speaker: And so, like you said, it's like what someone at the top recognizes, right? So that kind of happened for me. Someone at the top, like a big institution, kind of validated the research I was doing. And then there was one example that my thesis advisor told me that maybe I should cut, like it was because it was really long, you guys. That's the thing. It was not, it was not cute how long this thing was.

Speaker: And so I think at any point they were like, cut that comparison, cut that one. And one I actually kind of fought with Dr. Wazowski for was a comparison between Beyonce's imagery and Nefertiti. And to me, it was really important to have that in there because it's not Cleopatra, right? Like think about that. Beyonce is not going to pick a Macedonian leader in North Africa. There's a conscious choice to use Nefertiti bust repeatedly.

Speaker: And she was kind of like, ah, is it the strongest example? You know, like, you know, maybe we can get rid of that one. And I was just kind of like, I really don't feel comfortable with that. And sure enough, that same week that I presented, because it's in May, she had led Coachella and she came out in the Balmain, where she looks like Nefertiti.

Speaker: And my thesis advisor said it to me and was like, basically like, I saw this, just know that I saw it. Like, I hear you. And I was like, ah, so they were very open. And they challenged me. They challenged me on things that maybe they thought weren't the most necessary. I did reach out. I forget his name now. I could find it for you guys later. But I did reach out to, I want to say, a creative director on an Amine music video for the Spice Girl video. Because there was something that looked like, he had like a blue and yellow target.

Speaker: And I was like, is that a Jasper Johns thing? And so I just shot him an email and asked, and he was like, I'm sorry, are you telling me that you are at a university and you're writing about this music video? And I was like, yes. So I think people even in the field sometimes don't realize what they're doing. The field is watching and it is significant. And I think, you know, not only does it help validate and legitimize, it makes them excited. I think that's cool. I'm excited to do the research, but they're excited by the research.

Speaker: you know, they don't feel like they're, I don't know, the man's taking over or something, right? Right. And I love that point about you reaching out to someone who worked on that video who had the inspiration, that person who's working on that video, who's working on the imagery, who's working on

Speaker: Beyonce is Coachella outfits. Those are artists. Those are living contemporary artists. And I think it's you are so poignant and in looking to the artist of that. And I think that's where a lot of people in the field from my perception and and experiences from it are missing that connection because

Speaker: because the man at the top is not saying this is an artist or you know, they are a person they are like a craft almost like they're there. Those big creatives are othered in a very unique way, whether they become separated from the canon and from art historical discussions. And I think it's so smart.

Speaker: to treat those people as artists and reach out to them as a direct source of their creations. And say, you know, what do you look at? What are you looking at here? What are you referencing? Because it's relevant. And right? Like, I mean, thesis opens with the quote from Jay Z when he did the performance at PACE. And he says something like, you know, like rap and painting is like cousins. And I feel like what's hard about that when you were that big, like you're saying you get you get other than a certain way that performance,

Speaker: because it was a music video, I feel like the art world took it as like novelty, right? And I think that's a mistake, not a mistake, but it's something that 50 years are gonna look back on and be like, oh my gosh, kind of like where I was joking about Olympia, right? You're gonna look back on and be like, remember the reaction to that? No, totally. And it's just it's so I think what, what you present to your audience is clearly what you've presented in your thesis and as we'll get into your your brand and your social media is

Speaker: You put that in hindsight. You take that, you take what's happening now and make people look and listen about the power of these images. And I think that's just what you are so incredibly good at. And that's just why Gianna and I are so obsessed because you have this, like truly this incredible ability to take even something that seems minor, that someone might discount as being insignificant and

Speaker: and bring it to the forefront and show you that this is a moment. Like this is a moment. I think it kind of comes from, I watched the documentary when I was in high school that had a really big impact on me called misrepresentation.

Speaker: M -I -S -S representation about the representation of women in media and essentially it's about visual literacy being able to read sort of tropes and stereotypes of women that were presented and that was sort of the framework when that was a big deal to me when I was a freshman in college. I probably watched it when I was maybe 18 in high school and when I started my history degree that was kind of the framework I was thinking in

Speaker: And so I was constantly looking for like repeated patterns and repeated visual images of like throughout the canon because you know that first year just you kind of going you know traversing the canon sort of lightly and seeing like David another David another David which I joke about a lot but like okay but why?

Speaker: And what are the intentions? Because we still do that to this day where we take an image or a story or some more color even and we apply our own intention behind it.

Speaker: So you're going to read it as one thing and then our attention is going to come through. Like that happens a lot in advertising, right? Advertisers use that a lot. So that's kind of where it got it got to be important to me. I felt like to write in the thesis and do the research because I was like, I think it just drives home that when you're watching these videos, these references.

Speaker: Whether you recognize, if you recognize them or not, you probably do. Like, you're getting the message. Like, this visual language has existed for a millennia at this point. And they're tapping into it for a reason. Now, I'm not trying to make Gaga sound like some kind of crazy mastermind. You know what I mean? I mean, she might be. But she's doing it intentionally. And I also wanted to give autonomy back to those artists, particularly the female artists and then the artists of color.

Speaker: because it was female artists, artists in K -pop, so, you know, East Asian artists, and then men of color, basically, that were covered. And I feel like for the women, it's always like, like, Beyoncé, the discussion's always about the dad and things like that. Gaga's a little different because we all know she's cuckoo -banana.

Speaker: But I feel like we all know she's in charge of the show. But I think for a lot of those people, it can kind of be brushed off as like, there's a team behind them and a whole machine thinking of these things. There are, but there is intention happening here. And I would argue specifically with hip hop and then specifically with the female pop artists I chose, which were Gaga, Taylor Swift, and Taylor Swift, of course.

Speaker: And Beyonce, of course, these are curated images that they have their hand in and they want you to perceive them and the narrative they're presenting in a certain way. Not saying good, it's not saying it's bad, just that they are storytelling. Oh my gosh, so many thoughts. Gianna, I'm going to let you get to my next question, but I just want to say this is literally what you just pointed out is also exactly what art history is. I mean, what is Kehinde Wiley's workshop without a curated experience?

Speaker: What is the workshop of any male Renaissance artist without a fucking team behind them, without a patron behind them, without the church behind, like, it's just that same machine that, you know, people critique culture today as being lesser than about, you know, being that like cog, that mechanism, that just like churns and churns. Okay, well, I have news for you. That is how art history has functioned.

Speaker: And I feel like since the audience now isn't some kind of institution, it's mostly young people. A lot of the time it's young women. You know, I think a lot about when the 1975 came out and people were very critical that their audience was teenage girls. And I think Matt Healy, and I could be paraphrasing this going back, I think he said something like, teenage girls gave us the Beatles. So I think a lot of times society at large tends to be very critical of visual media and art that young people engage with, young women,

Speaker: and particularly in people of color as well. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. If you haven't listened to our Met Gala episode, wink, wink, you know, we were talking about how, you know, whatever you think about the Met Gala and even celebrities talk about like, Oh, you know, it's just a bunch of, you know, people wearing stupid outfits and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The idea of what you're talking about in your thesis also goes back to this idea of

Speaker: conditioning that we have when it comes to our own visual literacy. So you can either think that you're above it and that you're not faced to these things or you think that you don't know

Speaker: maybe what this reference is, but you have been conditioned for those things. And so from a human psychology perspective too, from a social aspect, that is also why your work is so fascinating too. It hits all those points. So we got into the grad of it all, but let's get into the post grad of it all. You've had a few different jobs in the arts and you've talked about that particularly recently a lot on your TikTok. And you've mentioned this persisting idea

Speaker: in the quote, obsession art history students have with getting a job that society at large deems proper based on their art history background. So if you wouldn't mind, it would be so kind to elaborate more on this and tell us just about this thought process and maybe how you have experienced it. Yeah, I think the reason why I brought it up was when

Speaker: culture quota started gaining some traction on Instagram and TikTok. My DMs, any question I get is almost always about like, what is your job? What jobs have you had? How did you get the internships you've had? What have you been doing? And it's just, and I even saw it with the own girls, and I say girls because we're all girls in my class, with the girls in my class of this sort of idea that if you didn't have a job or an internship in a museum,

Speaker: a gallery or like an auction house, what were you doing? And I'm always really open with my followers that I never had a museum internship. It was not for lack of trying. Sometimes it was for financial purposes. I couldn't afford to work for free. Other times it was because I just didn't get it. I think that's the other thing that's really hard

Speaker: for people, young students to understand, especially because now working in our art world for a long time, being on the other side of Curtin, so many of those things you see posted guys are given away before you even get to them. Like, I hate to say it, you know, pull the nepotism thing. A lot of those things are going to someone and it's just, you know, it's just kind of how it shakes out, which is really disappointing, right? So this is where I get to my point of like, if you are like me,

Speaker: I'm in college. You've got to take the job in the gay gym and fold the towels. It's fine. No one is judging you. And guess what? It doesn't mean you won't get a freaking job in the field. And it's not to be critical. The kids, as I understand it, that's what they're surrounded by. But it is incessant and gnawing at them. And it's not healthy. I don't think we do a good job in the field when we're working with our history students.

Speaker: of showing them what they can do in the field, right? Because it is more than just gallery, museum, auction house, you know, art consulting, whatever. There are so many people in my museum every day that I'm like, this is your job here? Like, that is so cool. You know what I mean? And they might have no art historical background.

Speaker: right or people who have art historical backgrounds are working in the most like unconventional places inside the institution and all of us have like a really varied background so like one question I got really early on or sorry I should say comments I got really early on with someone said I love art history and I just figured out it wasn't feasible for me like we've all talked about this the financial aspect of being an art history student and working in the field

Speaker: And she said, and like, it breaks my heart. And like, I just, I hate, I just hate, this is my reality. And I don't really video respond a lot, but I video responded that comment because I sit and want to say to her, if you love art history and you found that it wasn't feasible for you, like, that's okay. Like, it doesn't mean you won't have a job with art. I was like, I can't tell you the amount of people I meet in the field every day.

Speaker: who have a job I've never heard of, and maybe have no art historical background. One of the highest people at the auction house I worked, who was a VP, did not have an art history background. So there are non -traditional ways to get into these roles, and it doesn't happen overnight. Like, don't beat yourself up. I think the kindest thing I ever did to myself was when I graduated, and I was working at the gay gym.

Speaker: which was one of many non art jobs I had guys, like I worked in a lot of your places. Okay. Like, and I wasn't any worse off for it. But when I graduated, I said to myself, because I wanted to stay in Chicago, and I don't get a job like a full time job in the field.

Speaker: for like three years. Like I was giving myself like a three -year time on it. I'll be okay. Like the goal was to get a full -time job period, right? And I wasn't to get a full -time job in a museum, in a freaking auction house or whatever. What ended up happening I feel like because I kind of relaxed about it and took that pressure off of myself was I found a part -time job front desk at an auction house.

Speaker: That is the kind of job I feel like a lot of our graduating our history students look at and they go, no, I want to work in the painting department, you know, or whatever.

Speaker: That's not how it works. So I was just like, guys, how broke is this? I will gladly continue my part time job folding towels and commute an hour each way to answer phones and be screamed at in an auction house just because this job has something to do with my field. And actually, really interesting caveat that I think everyone will be interested in. When I interviewed for the job, I actually didn't get the job originally. My friend, my now dear friend did.

Speaker: And they hired her part time. And my, the woman who was in charge of that department was, and the reason, the reason they hired her over me was she had an internship at Sotheby's. And whoever was making the decision said, well, this one has that experience. This other one doesn't. So hire her.

Speaker: Okay, like what does that contradict everything I just said? No, because guess what? Like a week later, you're realizing this girl is great. Soft skills need a little work. She's scared of everyone that walks in the door. And to be fair, it was a very scary environment. I mean, I always say the devil was proud of, but like on acid, like everyone's mad and there's a lot of money and it's like, so my bottom soon boss said the other girl we interviewed was a lot chattier, obviously.

Speaker: So maybe we should have her back. So they hired me part -time. I worked part -time for a month before they offered me full -time. So it just goes, and again, I didn't beat myself up. I didn't sit there and go, I got this art history degree and now I'm working a part -time job and I'm still folding towels. I'm just like, great, great. I was just happy to be a part of it because I had been excluded from it in the internship world, if that makes sense.

Speaker: So I was just happy that someone was finally giving me a chance. And when I got off of that desk and moved into an account executive position, it was given to like someone, a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing. And I said to my boss at the time.

Speaker: I would really appreciate it if like that didn't happen again. And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, you got me and my other coworker from like applying on the website. And we're like the best team you had up here. You know what I mean? You gave us a chance to open a door for us. If you could continue to open the door for other people, that would be really cool.

Speaker: So it's like a non -traditional path. Like you don't have to be embarrassed. It also took me six years to graduate undergrad. Like life is not a straight line, man plans, and God laughs. And if you've got to work the job that's not the art job right now, it's going to be okay. And none of us are going to judge you, you know? But like I said, I do feel like as a field, as a whole, we don't do a good job of telling people what jobs are out there.

Speaker: Yes, absolutely. So a couple thoughts just about like the internal external aspect of the job application process. But we all went to college, we all have that background, that experience of having those thoughts about, I do have this piece of paper, I do have this degree and this entitlement that we also struggle with. I think the interesting thing that you spoke to that I feel like

Speaker: as art people, we don't always take ourselves out and look at this perspective about how other people working other jobs, not in the art also experienced those same real things, right? They have this business degree, but maybe they work in this field or I got my degree in philosophy, but now I work in marketing. These are also not working conditions that people in the arts

Speaker: are excluded from and yet we continue to put ourselves in this different narrative because of the reality of the arts. Well it's very singular to like this part of the humanities. Like I never hear like as it was a classic, I never hear classic students talking like this. You know what I mean? Yeah and I feel like what's the deal with English students man? You know like English students are maybe working everywhere. Like why can't I work where the people are?

Speaker: But yeah, I don't know. And my professors used to kind of allude to this, that when they were in like their graduate programs and like, you know, getting their PhDs, it was like a really hyper intensive competitive environment. And it was very catty and competitive amongst other women. So I almost wonder if it's kind of an offshoot of that, that day and age, not saying, I mean, none of the people who asked me these questions are like trying to be catty by any means.

Speaker: But it's just this kind of like, a person who gets involved in our history is going to be that student, like that kind of like hyper -competitive academic. It's a lot of reading. It's a lot of writing. It's a lot of words in foreign languages. You're going to be just that inclined to be that kind of student, I think, already. It's going to put that insurmountable amount of pressure on yourself for no reason. There's no reason. There's no reason. We just do it. It comes with the territory.

Speaker: I mean, like, of course, like, you know, I'm not saying like, I was like, beautiful towels, happy, but I gave myself a little bit of grace is what I'll say more grace than I saw anyone else give themselves. Yeah. Well, yeah, such an important reminder. I do kind of feel like we're in a little bit of like a medicine commercial. Like, if you also have this degree, try working as a barista.

Speaker: I did apply. That's the thing you guys like I applied everywhere for everything like I applied to check coats at the MCA. I applied to work in their gift shop. Both those jobs said no and I had our history degree and it wasn't like a

Speaker: I have my history degree. Why do you think, you know, the next one, but I mean, you do bring up such a good humbling point that we, it's really hard to remind yourself, but through the job application process, there are just literally so many factors.

Speaker: that are out of your control. And a lot of times because it's just a dumb way in which jobs work, like it is the law that they have to post it to give fair opportunity when they know that they already have their candidate and it is a vicious cycle. And so what a great friendly reminder to for us all to just give ourselves some freaking grace. For real? I mean, like my job, the one that everyone always has to go, how did you get started working the house? I didn't get it.

Speaker: There was like a full week where I didn't get it, you know? And that wasn't the end of the story. He ended up offering it to me later.

Speaker: Well, speaking to that and speaking about carving out a new lane for people who study art history and creative fields, you have built your own amazing business for art historians and art lovers that is fun, that is accessible. So can you tell us about Glamour & Honey here on ABT? We fucking love Glamour & Honey. We talk about it all the time. So why is it important to have a brand that celebrates art history in this way?

Speaker: Well, you know, I was thinking about this question a lot, because it kind of got me to question my own brand of like, Oh my God, am I just as bad as like coach and those ugly Basquiat versus? Like, have am I the villain? Like, I don't think I'm the villain. There's nothing more I want than a Jeff Koons Louis Vuitton bag. Like, I'm just gonna there's nothing more that I want in this world than a fucking Jeff Koons bag from Louis Vuitton that has a fucking Mona Lisa on it.

Speaker: Okay, thank you. Or like, you're like the Louis Vuitton's look at the Monet's or whatever, didn't Virgil do like a Cindy Sherman series. And so here's the difference, I know. I mean, here's the difference, I think, though, with Glamour & Honey. So basically, yes, it is our website where we sell, I'm wearing it right now, paint different paintings. Someone the other day was, what this rude ass one in common was like, these are just public domain images on sweatshirts. And I'm like, that's the point.

Speaker: That is the point of the business. Hate the game, not the player, just because we found the hole, okay, in the market. It really was sort of, because Ally's like the big business man, so Ally's my best friend. I always say my best friend, business partner, and life partner. And she was the one who really pushed me to start Culture Club, because her background's in marketing. And she was my roommate when we stayed abroad in Italy, and she was just kind of like, there's something here.

Speaker: Something's weird with you. Every time you talk about art, I don't give a fuck about art, and I'm interested. So we need to figure out a way to get you out there. So she started Culture Quota, and then Glam and Honey actually started a little separately from that. It was originally targeted towards sorority girls. I was not a sorority. Ally was. And the kind of hole in the market we found there was Ally hated all of her sorority stuff. She came into the kitchen one day and was like,

Speaker: don't look at my ugly socks and we're like what? And she's like we're like dealt us a game of socks or something. And she was just talking about how like all the marches were ugly and part of it is that they purchased like the Greek letters or whatever they're trademarked and like you're just stuck with what you get kind of thing.

Speaker: And I was like, yeah, but like the Greek letter, they use this trip, but like the Greek alphabet is not trademark. Like wouldn't you just want like a switch, a black sweatshirt that says like Delta Gamma and like black or like in white or black or whatever. And she was kind of like, yeah. So that's how it originally started. Then she was like, I think culture quota needs like its own contingent on glamor and honey. And I was like, I don't know what that looks like. And she was like, oh, what do you mean? You don't know what that looks like. Like what she just said, it was just like, what would you want?

Speaker: what do you want? Like if you could go to your dream art history store, what do you want? And that's kind of how it started. It was all my favorite paintings and all my favorite things, like tote bags, hats, and sweatshirts.

Speaker: where I think it differs from like a coach selling Basquiat or whoever, like everyone's got like a herring deal, like why is Keith Herring stuff like on everything? It's so ugly. Bethany Frankl, queen, but she wears it all the time. I'm gonna call, she went to Arboza once and she's like, oh man, I Keith Herring love their jacket now. But where I think it differs

Speaker: is um it's more it reminds me more of like merch it's like art history stan merch it is merch for the person like me who loves caravaggio the same way i loved nick jonas when i was like 13 and had a nick jonas t -shirt like that is the ethos behind it basically you know it's like the band tee that art amnesia was never could never have gotten because that concept didn't exist

Speaker: That's sort of like the ethos. And we listen to people. You know, people ask all the time, can you do this? Can you do that? We want it on a t -shirt. And we try to evolve that way. We try to listen to what people want. The actual art historian sweatshirt, though, was sort of the one off. It started when I went viral and people were like, how does this girl even have an art history degree? How dare you? What?

Speaker: Oh my God, I made one joke about Carpaccio maybe being a serial killer. And you guys are questioning my entire education. Get the F out of here. So that's what I said. Just make that fucking sweatshirt so I can make one video or five comment being like, fuck you guys, right? And so we made those. And then it actually kind of ended up being popular. And I had to think about like why something so specific to like a singular experience I had became like a popular product.

Speaker: on Guillermo and Honey's website, and I think it was because it spoke to, again, something I feel like is very unique to our historian, imposter syndrome. We have a BA, we don't have an MA, so thus we don't feel like an art historian. One of my good friend, or we don't have a PhD, and like whatever, so thus we can't call ourselves an art historian. I feel like that is like a prolific thought. Like even my friend Maggie, who is such a queen, she's in her MA in art history, I think at the University of Maryland, correct me if I'm wrong, Maggie,

Speaker: But she, the other day, was like struggling with the idea of putting art historian in her Instagram bio. Like, so I feel like until we are literally at a lectern with like a click, click, click, slide clicker, we don't think we're art historians. And actually, she gifted one to a professor who's really close to. And the professor said, oh, this is great. Does it come with a PhD? And I was like, oh my god. It should come with a PhD, is all I'm saying. That would be so cute.

Speaker: like a little authentic, like, ooh, your actual art historian sweatshirt. Ah, authenticated by culture quota. Ah, that would be really fun. You know, we have thought about this and I'd love your guys' feedback and anyone's feedback who's listening on doing like a culture pod art history club sweatshirt with like a culture quota, like crest, like it would be like a university because I went to Loyola so it's like a very old school, like academic. But Ali had an issue with my design because I included pills. You included what? Pills.

Speaker: She's like, we can't have drugs on it. I mean, I'm going to wear it. I was like, we are all on something, ma 'am. We're all on something, ma 'am. I take a little pill every single day. I feel like Tylenol at minimum. I'm high right now. I don't know about you guys.

Speaker: as I am all the time, wildly fascinating. Sign me up. We'll purchase. No question. I love it. But I also, I think that what your brand is so good at too is in tandem with the actual art history and sweatshirt, which is like my favorite thing in the whole world.

Speaker: Thank you. I love that idea of bringing satire into the world of art history and and what your merchos not only does it speak to that just as it exists but the idea of that crest like you're in the club like you know I don't actually have to have my PhD from Harvard

Speaker: to be an art historian and know what I'm talking about. So I mean, I am already on board. It's just like also that like it was kind of like that mantra that you tell yourself like going back to like giving yourself like grace and kind of like pumping you up for the day. Beatrice, I feel like you would appreciate this because before we got to be best friends,

Speaker: you sent us an actual art historian sweatshirt. And I was working at a museum hotel at the time. And so when I posted photos of the actual art historian sweatshirt, I took them in the gallery space in which I was working front desk. And so it was just always like this very inside joke to myself like when I would wear the sweatshirt

Speaker: working a non -art job in an art space and people would approach me. It was just not everyone was there to have a conversation with me, but I just was like, wow, this is hilarious and nobody gets it, but I get it.

Speaker: And that's the thing is like, I never saw myself like when I was like working the front desk and answering those calls and getting screened bad and like, you know, booking comic terms. I never saw myself not as an art historian. Like I was like, this is part of the field. Like this is a job in the field. This is part of what we do. And I think that's where not to go back a couple of questions, but I think that's where people get in trouble because they think they're going and a lot of my student workers and I have this conversation a lot is they think they are going to get their BA and they're going to be like a junior specialist in like the painting department.

Speaker: Like, one of our junior specialists in one of our departments, she started as an art handler. You know, sometimes you gotta work the job, maybe the not so glamorous job, and you do learn a lot. Like, I loved my front desk job, until I didn't. But I did love it at one point. You're gonna lay little getting yelled at on the phone for so long, you guys. They finally moved me to the back. They finally were like, let her call, she screamed. She's gonna lose her mind.

Speaker: That is how every book should end. I liked it until I didn't. And then that's all she wrote. Amazing. I do want to get into the big one though, part of the reason why we are here today. We've been dying to talk to you about so let's talk about TikTok. That's really kind of how we met and how

Speaker: We have just met so many like minded people in the art history circle. And I feel like I don't know, I feel like we have this like art history, like mafia kind of like family vibe going between like us and other platforms, which I just am very here for.

Speaker: So I have to I have to tell you before you answer the question that I am in a little chat group on Instagram called art history memers. And there have been several times where like, we're in the group and I get a DM and it is a DM of one of your reels or tik toks. No, no, I'm dead serious. I'm dead serious. And when it happens, I look at it. I'm like, I know her.

Speaker: I'm like, she's like, my friend. So like, it's so funny, because sometimes I'll just respond, like, I'll just be like, Oh, yeah, like, I already saw it. Like, I know her. No, Bianca, it's such a flex. I had like the other I mean, like a while ago, but I followed up with them because I was like, Oh, like I told you, like, like, she's coming on the podcast. But they like send me your tech tag. They're like, Oh, my God, you would really like her. And I'm like,

Speaker: I know. She is a friend of a friend of a friend. Okay. And they're done that. Like I already know her. Okay. It's a flex. That's the only thing I have to keep me like living at this point. So no pressure. When I do see the shares go up, you can see the share numbers. I'm always like, this is just all my family and all my friends sending this shit to each other mocking me.

Speaker: and I'm like, wow, everyone's just mocking my ass. So it is cool. I will say I had, I've had a couple of disorienting experiences, but like people out of nowhere text me being like, you were on my FYB. I'm like, oh, cause you know, it's like other art people are people to college with. And I'm like, yeah, that was me. The big one recently was Charlie XCX posting me on her story. And no, I watched her story and I was on there.

Speaker: And what had happened the night before, I saw my own post, posted to a Charli XCX meme account. So I was scrolling through my own feed and was like, Oh, like, cause you're like, first you think like, is it culture coded just on my personal feed, right? Or something. And I was like, Oh, Oh, this isn't my account. And so that's for sure how Charli saw it. She follows that meme account of herself with like boss move. She does.

Speaker: But that was like, oh yeah, those were probably the freakiest things. It's weird to see, cause you know how it is you create content, you experience it on your side of the platform almost exclusively. So to see it out in the wild like that is jarring.

Speaker: Yeah, I think when you start throwing out the phrase like wildly unsettling, I'm such a narcissist, but it's like we strangely hold too much power. But I want to get into it a little bit more. So I want to talk about what you love about TikTok, how it has been such a game changer for Culture Quota and kind of part of its history.

Speaker: How does it allow you to create fun art history content too? Obviously as you know that accessibility is something that we're incredibly interested in and kind of breaking those barriers between hierarchy and art. And then how do you like truly just balance the creative side with education with also this idea of trying to block the haters and also just

Speaker: trying to perhaps have meaningful conversations on this platform, something that we were getting very bogged down by, and also not always having meaningful conversations. Let us know how you navigate this crazy platform.

Speaker: I mean, I like TikTok and I was definitely, I wouldn't say TikTok naysayer. I got on TikTok as culture quota, because obviously culture quota as a like digital brand, I guess I'd existed before. And I was doing okay, you know, Instagram stuff. And I got on TikTok as culture quota during quarantine, I was in lockdown, so I had more time to create.

Speaker: I think if anyone's interested in creating on TikTok, it's great because when you start out, no one's going to see the bad stuff you make. Like those first like 30 TikToks that are going to be so bad are going to get like one view.

Speaker: They are. Right. You know, so it does allow you as a platform, a space to experiment. What I ended up liking about it once I got on it and was sort of, you know, dude scrolling through quarantine into the night was it reminded me so much of like, and I'm not the first person to make this comparison. It reminded me so much of how Tumblr used to be.

Speaker: So it felt like a place that was run by actual normal people and the sort of like Jason Derulo's and Lizzo accounts, like the big sort of celebrity TikToks that yes, they get TikTok and like they participate in me, but at the end of the day, it's still a big celebrity account. Those aren't on there yet, not to the degree they are now. So it really felt like this organic place where you could post something, maybe a little off -putting about like your depression.

Speaker: And you weren't worried about it, like getting back to your boss, getting, you know what I mean? Your parents seeing it. Like Instagram was already starting to become like that kind of hyper slick, this is my life. It's great. It had been like that for a long time at that point. TikTok, and you really think that's why

Speaker: And I do kind of feel bad because I feel like there's these waves and like in three years of parents, I'll be on TikTok. But like, I think why that initial wave of like young adults, not so much kids anymore happened during quarantine because it was kind of a place where you could interact with each other and it wasn't so polished and like stilted. And then also TikTok gives you the opportunity for virality. And you know, there's a lot to be said for that.

Speaker: If you're not like a content creator or marketing person or a digital person, I think it could be really scary. I think it could be overwhelming. You know, I think we're starting to see people creators come out and be like, oh my God, my channel was about food. And this one TikTok I made of my dog got a million views and I make dog content like they feel.

Speaker: bogged down by the algorithm so that's negative to it but the pro is it does it used to that one's a little different now but it used to give you kind of a fair shot at getting your stuff out there to a lot of people within your niche what is scary and i feel like sometimes happens to women in the art history sphere on tick tock which i know you guys have talked about this on the podcast before is it can go to the wrong niche

Speaker: really fast. That's kind of what you guys were talking about. Do you mean the STEM? The STEM one was the point where because I use the hashtag STEM, it was the wrong STEM people. But what I loved and what was so fascinating about that TikTok and the

Speaker: the viral moment, you know, on a small scale that I had was the women in STEM who were like, on behalf of all women in STEM, let me tell you,

Speaker: I am so sorry for the atrocities that are happening. And so it was just so funny because it was, I mean, that can be said for any platform that a woman holds in general, men are going to come for you. But it was so nice to see the women being like, listen, I'm sorry that there are losers here, but the women here are not.

Speaker: We hear you and we support you. I feel like something about TikTok, like I don't feel like that would happen on like many other platforms that for me be like the small part of stay on Twitter, right? Like I feel like people feel more empowered to make that comment and they don't realize how helpful that is to the creator. You know what I mean? To see that kind of stuff. Like my biggest one that has 2 million, it doesn't have 2 million because it's the funniest, smartest TikTok about our history ever. It has 2 million because it got on the side of TikTok where kids didn't understand who Renee Magritte was.

Speaker: Like literally that is the and i literally have a comment like oh my god how does this not how does this get outside of the beach that's why it has two million views so well but not like we and again our history people like what we can obsess with like the numbers and statistics and success i found my channel has become a lot more enjoyable for me to create for and a lot more enjoyable space for my followers.

Speaker: when I just made content for us and try to avoid going not avoid waiver, but it's not the goal. Virality is not the goal that makes sense. This bitch locked. So we could run. Like, let's be real. And really, I think about it. I think about it a lot. Because when I have changed fairly recently, even the ways that I engage with social media,

Speaker: It has changed a lot to the point where I put

Speaker: images out into the world, and I don't explain them, and I don't caption them, and I don't interact with anyone about them. I say, do with this what you will. And I think that attitude really kind of derives from this culture quota content, because there is so much turnover with your content. And I noticed some of that. Yeah, I mean, it's like I'm studying you, it's wild. What do you mean there's turnover with my content?

Speaker: Not to turn over. For lack of better words, there's also regurgitation of content, right? Because you're trying to get this information out in terms of also something like glamor and honey. When you're trying to push this product, push your favorite painting, push Artimedia, Genaleski. Let's be real. That girl needs to be out there. And when I think of something in terms of the way that

Speaker: I also want to take what I experience on a personal level through social media and do with that what I will through our pop talk. You can morph those platforms and I think that we forget that we can have them function in ways that are healthy for us. We just have to make them cater towards our knees

Speaker: and have that healthy reminder like you are talking about. But a lot of times, and I don't know how you feel about this, I just kind of based on how this platform goes, TikTok, I have been feeling more comfortable getting back on that platform and creating content, turning off all the commenting. But I feel like that is such a, what's the word I'm looking for?

Speaker: controversial action, because like, no, but really, like, what do we think about a platform who is trying to have discussions about art, turning off captioning on social media, just because it's getting like literally out of hand? Well, I will tell you, I've only turned off the captions on one, to talk ever.

Speaker: And there were like, there were TikToks made about how I turned off the comments, but it was the first one that went viral. It got like, vitriol. And it was Mary who was the best iconocast. He was like, all of our queen and savior. I was like, my teacher would be like, they really don't like it. And she's like, yeah, they don't like the usage of the wood zero killer. And I'm like, look.

Speaker: I said, you know, I was making a joke like, you know, when you're like, align with your girlfriends. I don't have a PhD dissertation saying he's a serial killer, but that's how they were acting. And what got to me wasn't like the mudslinging at me and about how like, I don't have an art history degree and I'm an idiot. And I was like, it was when the PhDs and the MA started to argue with each other.

Speaker: And every morning I would wake up to like 90 plus comments. It got to like weird 4chan like area of the internet. It was like other PhDs, other art historians, and it wasn't a constructive conversation at that point. So that's when I turned it off because I was like, I didn't want to see this and I actually don't want my channel to be this place.

Speaker: I also like Mary and then Jenerva has a great channel and they will have these conversations like they will video reply to people and they're like articulate and like Mary in particular is almost like dragging like she is like, uh, like we do up to the, I do not have.

Speaker: the stomach or the stamina to do that. I have a generalized anxiety disorder. If you're going to argue with me in my comments, I'm not going to video respond to you. I'm not cool. I'm not married. I'm not cool in the moment.

Speaker: So as much as you want to educate them back, I do kind of have this attitude of unless the comments are getting wildly out of control, I let them go. I just let them say what they want to say. And most of the time, if you don't get involved as the creator, they start talking amongst each other. You'll see sometimes I might jump in and be like, LOL. Or like, aha, someone to get the joke. But I really let them talk amongst themselves because

Speaker: And it's like, God, I had this conversation with Allison today. I was like, it's so hard because at the same time, you don't want to say to people, these conversations can only happen in a college classroom, in the ivory tower, pay your $100 ,000 to talk about it. But at the same time, it can get really destructive and gross on

Speaker: TikTok. So kind of what I do, because I feel like, and I've seen it less on my channel in the past, I would say year, that attitude and those kinds of comments, I feel like have become lesser. And a big part of that I think is because I have been able to gain a followership that doesn't engage in that kind of behavior. So one thing I've noticed is when you look at the tone of the comments and like, this is like mental health 101, and you see like 10 comments,

Speaker: And they're good. And then you see one and it's like kind of annoying or bad or like not cool, right? Like they're mocking the artist or mocking you, like whatever. They're mocking another commenter. If you get rid of that comment, guess what? No one can bandwagon on it. No one can jump on it. And I know a lot of creators who will keep that comment because it's going to start bandwagoning and it's going to start more comments and then their engagement will go up.

Speaker: I don't think that that's fair to me or the content or the person they're targeting with if it's not me, right? So I'm willing to get rid of the maybe 30 extra comments to keep the temperature of my comment section good and safe, if that makes sense. If you can like monitor them early, and I would say in that first hour or two, unless something goes super cuckoo bananas viral, then after that, I literally just stop looking at the comments, I think after a couple of days.

Speaker: So anything I would say like in the 50, 60, 100K range, and you can just kind of keep a litmus test and make sure that nothing that can get kind of spiral gets deleted. Have you ever made a TikTok comment and gone back to look if it was deleted? No. So like, and if even people were like, she's using the delete button. Yeah, I'm an adult woman. I will use my delete, my block button. I don't care. And I feel like,

Speaker: That attitude a few years ago was so villainized. I think when YouTube was really big and people did that, it was kind of like, oh, they want to put their content up, but they don't want to face the consequences. Now, I think because TikTok, it's like you said, the turnover is so much. You are making so much content. If you dealt with that all the time, you go crazy. People give a little more leeway to creators being like, no, I'm blocking. I'm deleting. Go see them say like, and if you say anything like this, I'm going to delete you. So I feel like the attitude towards that has changed.

Speaker: It really is just kind of about finding something people are going to bandwagon on that's negative and just getting rid of it early.

Speaker: And I, I think that's a really smart way to approach the platform or any platform that, you know, might be upcoming in the future. That's just, that's something that I started struggling with and I didn't know how to, how to navigate that. So I just like quit entirely because Gianna and I, you know, when we were talking about it, it's like, okay, let's just focus on, you know, we do have art pop talk and.

Speaker: Something that's great about TikTok too and other forms of media that we are on is that it's kind of evergreen. We might not be putting out TikToks, but you know what? People are still watching those TikToks and that might work for us. But the great thing about the duality of all these different contents and all the channels that you're putting them out on is that there is kind of this

Speaker: place, like this central place to come back to. And for us, that's APT. But with that, I wanted to ask you one of these final questions is you are currently working on your undergraduate certificate in Holocaust and genocide studies, and you're shifting your research to focus on art history and cultural restitution. So first of all, I want to hear more, but I think with that, that's another great place where

Speaker: You know, short comments might not be the most productive and I'll be all conversation. But on top of that, here's something else that I am doing, that I am creating, that I am writing about, that I have written about, that I did write this other thesis, I did put forth this other research. So I think that's also something if you are a content creator,

Speaker: which, if you're an art historian, you have created content because you are likely writing no matter what it is. So something that has helped me navigate that is thinking about, OK, we put together this 60 -second video. And in the long run, no one's going to go back and read the comments on that a year later. However, here's something in tandem with that that we are making that's accessible that's a little bit more

Speaker: that's a little bit more centralized that does allow for like those more nuanced conversations. And so I think the two of those working together like a short form and long form really like create a well rounded conversation. So I want to hear about how you are doing that in a different form of media.

Speaker: What do you envision for museums and cultural centers or houses to look for in their restitution plans? Just tell us more about this. I was thinking about this a lot recently because I feel like you really don't hear about art restitution until someone's upset. It's something we should be constantly talking about in the field.

Speaker: And the only way we really address it and tell me if your guys' experience is different, but the only way it really came up in my art historical education was like that first paper you write semester one on the Elgin Marbles. And then like, never again. Right? Like, never again. And so it's not something that's taught to us in our undergraduate training.

Speaker: And it shocks me, especially once I start working in an action house, that we have no basic provenance training, no basic provenance research training. So where you get into sort of this issue with restitution in these big institutions is you've got, and we all know this because we work in the arts, you've got some specialists who's like not actually trained to do provenance research in cultural restitution, looking at this, you know, looking at this item and

Speaker: kind of half -assing their way through it, right? So the New York Times actually this week posted an article that the MFA Boston has like a head of provenance research. That's all she does. And it's a big deal because like no other museum does it this way, which is like this article, I was like, okay, like, you know, snaps for L also pay your people a living wage Boston, like it's not forgotten. But the idea was like,

Speaker: Oh, yeah, this is the only museum in the country that even has someone that's just dedicated to going through the collection and focusing. And while my focus obviously is on World War Two, looted works of art from the Nazis, that has been the focus for a while.

Speaker: There are way, way, way more colonized countries that are also missing. There are formerly colonized countries that are also missing. There are cultural objects that are being mishandled, you know, something as simple as like you like in your provenance research, you find out item shouldn't be handled by a certain person who's not in a like specific position in the tribe or the community or the village. And here we have been letting Steve from down the road, like, you know, handle this object.

Speaker: so disrespectfully, it kind of starts in the bottom up. I feel like we as young people in this field, if it's in our interest, there's a responsibility that we have to be trained in it. We have to have some exposure to it. We have to have some formal class work on it and understanding what it is just outside of the survey course. I feel like it comes up, like I said, very minimally when you talk about the eligible variables.

Speaker: And then on top of that as a field, we need more accountability just in general when it comes to like provenance, restitution and authentication of items. I mean, the things, the way I saw things authenticated, people would be stunned. I mean, it was literally like, looks good to me, girl. And again, it's like someone who just doesn't have the training and the institutions that want to put the money into the training.

Speaker: they think it's fine and they just kind of move along. Our restitution though, specifically with World War II, what's so hard about it is I feel like it's always presented as like a human like interest story. Like you'll see it in a newspaper. Like I used to see it growing up a lot in newspapers. It wasn't necessarily like restitution stories. It was always like someone's grandpa died. Now we have this missing max urnst that's on like Germany's list.

Speaker: And there was no, there was, and now I think about it as an adult, there was never any follow up to what happened to that piece. Did it go back to the country of origin? Was there any attempt to find the family or any living family members? And again, that's hard because you normally end up with a missing line. World War II, you're going to end up with a line that ends.

Speaker: And then there were also conflicting things after the war with the United States and sort of the IRO, you know, the International Refugee Organization about like, does it go, do we even try to do this? Can we just give it back to the government of the country where it's from?

Speaker: Or do we give it, there was another idea, we give it to the IRO and sell it on behalf of them to help refugees. So there were at that time when people were trying to figure it out, there were a lot of conflicting things happening simultaneously. So some art got handled that way, some art got given back to governments and things like that.

Speaker: God forbid, looted by us, right? There were a lot of, you know, military officers stationed in Central Europe during the Marshall Plan who ended up having their own looted property. So I think when we think about like, restitution, we're thinking so narrowly. We're thinking about like, when you know, someone's grandpa dies, and they find all these missing pieces or whatever, right? Or you know, these,

Speaker: pieces from an island that are in a museum. Okay, we have 12 of them. What happened to the other 28? Like that's come up a lot where you'll have a collection of like tribal figures or something like that. And the museum owns, you know, maybe a third of the ones they know are out there. And the person who like sold them to the museum or donated them to the museum has to arrest.

Speaker: Well, how far does restitution go? Is it just the institution that's responsible to return those items? Or do we now need to go after this other person? Right? And that's how it feels to the person who owns the object is like, they're coming after me. Like they're raiding my house. And it's like, yeah. You know, I feel like the public also

Speaker: Imagine how that feels. Imagine what it feels like to have your objects taken away from you. A government invitation coming after your items that you don't rightfully own. You know what I mean?

Speaker: Yeah, it gets really nasty. And then usually the person who owns the item has way more financial, cultural capital, like all the things to maintain the objects, you know, to retain them. Something interesting I read recently was Cornelius Gorlet, who was an art collector in Germany. And when I was graduating high school, got busted with him, which alluded to that his dad had, I know, busted

Speaker: that his dad had like, you know, his Nazi dad had like given to him or whatever. And he sold the lion tamer. That was the big one that came out when I was in high school. He sold the lion tamer at auction. And that's the thing. They don't just want to give it back. They want to try to deal with the family. Cut a deal. He want to cut a deal. So he sells it for like, you know, a couple million euros or whatever, and gives 800 ,000 to the original family. What a shame. Like, no.

Speaker: There's a really great, if anyone's interested on this, there's a really great movie called The Rape of Europa, obviously named after the myth of, you know, the abduction of Europa from Zeus. But the usage of that myth is so important because, you know, rape of Europa comes from the Latin word, rapio, to take. So this is a documentary about the looting of art items in Europe using the mythological story of the rape of Europa, meaning the Latin rapio to take, to take things. Very great, great documentary, great book.

Speaker: but and I cannot remember the museum but they do like one of those kind of like human interests here's a great example of what restitution looks like when it's all sunshine and rainbows and I want to say it's like a smaller midwest museum maybe somewhere in Cleveland I could be wrong apologize in Cleveland right now on behalf of that statement and they talk about how they you know how

Speaker: A good Samaritan on her own, you know, like did this research and found out that they don't own this item, you know, legally. So they contacted the family and this happens like nine out of 10 times. Like with Italy, like say you find that you own like some Roman pot and you're like, Hey, Italy, we found out we own this Roman pot. And like some general took it from you guys and like the 7 ,000, 99 % of the time the government in Italy is like, thanks. You can keep it. When it comes to cultural restitution for survivors of the Holocaust, that is not the case. They always want it back. Of course.

Speaker: And so this curator, guys, you've got to watch this documentary. This curator is like, I mean, it really is a loss. It was the centerpiece of like our European art collection and it is

Speaker: So cringy to watch. So I feel like we still have some attitude problems in the field of like, why don't you take it from our cold, dead hands? I mean, like the Golden Lady is a great example of that, what happened in Austria. Most people, that's the story they're familiar with. My professor told a really interesting story. Again, just another good Samaritan, like deciding to do research on her own. My professor, her parents were survivors, and then her in -laws were survivors.

Speaker: Her father -in -law had a company in Austria that made instruments and was shut down by the NSDAP for, you know, his Jewish business practices were hurting the Aryan businesses in the area, so he lost his business. Here we are in Kansas decades later. Her and her husband get a letter from this museum in Austria as a museum of musical instruments, and they find out that they have their looted property from that factory and want to know how to get it back to them.

Speaker: And so she showed us the letter, and I said, did you take it back? And she's like, yeah, I took it back. Think about that. Where are they going to put this? She's like, that's how much it means to people. She's like, oh, we took it back. They're all in our garage. We have no idea. They don't know how to take care of the objects. They don't know what they're going to do, but they just wanted to have them back finally.

Speaker: And one thing I asked her was like, how did they like, is there an institution like say, say I'm the good Samaritan, right? Where do I go from there? She's like, they literally just like googled us, like, there's no recourse. Once you find something, we don't have like standards and practices. My academic degree in art history was not specialized enough to pick a field like

Speaker: something that's restitution or archive like that's not what I went it was general art history but there was not a class offered on restitution practices you go through museum internships you go through a museum visits when you're in a class and you go and see you know the archives you see you're prepared or you see all these different people there's there was not one day that I had where we met with someone

Speaker: who is talking about restitution and a museum, but you talk about all the other kind of shiny things. And these are the things that are not only the most important, but are going to improve the field tremendously. Like they matter so much because you're starting with the object itself and the original people for whom that object is for. And if we're not talking about that, then we're doing our history completely wrong.

Speaker: Absolutely. And it's just like, the more I get into it, the more I'm shocked that we don't even have a single class, nothing on it. Truly. I think, you know, the documentary was talking about the rape of Europa was shown in a fine art one, 199 course, again, the fabulous Robin Miracle, who I just love. And she showed that to us. And I think about that I grew up in

Speaker: Germany. I knew the existence of this Cornelius Gurlet case. I, to be fair, was not in our history suit at that time. Still never really, I think it's like we need to get it to the public's attention in a way that is meaningful to them because I myself who am interested in this kind of thing grew up with it and it really didn't catch my attention. I studied our history for three years before that documentary and I never once thought about art restitution.

Speaker: what happened to the, all the art I saw in Europe, I mean, even the fascinating stories about like, you know, having to wheel the leading stamethress down those stairs, you know, at the loop. We all know, we don't think we all know the legend of like the art historian who passed out in the van with the Mona Lisa to humidify and was on so high. We don't talk about how, and again, it's hard when you're in the context of living under a fascist regime and occupation to be like, let's protect the object.

Speaker: But there were people like Rose Vallon, who was a single woman who lived by herself, and then apart from worrying about her old well -being, had the ability and the opportunity to care about the objects and the cultural heritage and took it. You know, like, I didn't like how many art historians they did in Rose Vallon, you know, right, we should all be talking about her, right? Like, it's very, yeah, it's a part of our field that's just completely

Speaker: I feel like under -researched and for us as students. I mean, I'm sure someone's grandpa is an expert. It should be part of kind of standard practices and there's a lot of things that need to be changed, but I think also to your full circle moment here,

Speaker: is thinking about those jobs that aren't talked about when you enter your art history or if you're thinking about pursuing that field, not only carving out a space for you to talk about what you're interested in, but if you are passionate about that and this is what your research is on, this is what everybody's should be,

Speaker: not only thinking about at all times, but should be aware of, go to that institution and be like, you don't have a director of restitution. I want to be your director here. I want to be the person that manages this. Let me tell you why you need this position. Let me do that for you.

Speaker: you know, I will say even after starting my new job, and it's a smaller university museum, we're already I didn't bring this up. And they know it's what I'm interested in. But they already are working with different organizations and groups that that's their goal, and providing trainings to the staff. That's great about everything from restitution to accessibility and museums and things like that. And it's part of a grant, like they have to use this money on those trainings. But

Speaker: We have a fantastic director. I mean, that's where we have a female director. Our museum has traditionally been run by female directors. I think that makes a big difference in the culture and our attitudes towards these things. And that is not the case for most museums, unfortunately. So I feel like it's going to be, we're going to have to wait, dare I say, for a generation to die out. So sorry.

Speaker: I think it's going to be a generational shift. I think once people our age are in those positions, it's just going to be the status quo in normal. The MFA Boston, though not willing to pay people a living wage, has made a great step by having at least one person whose job it is to go through and do this research. One thing I wonder about her job, though, is like, say she needed additional training in case she doesn't know how to handle indigenous objects from whichever country, right? Can she get that training? Is that training even available?

Speaker: And who are the other people not at MFA Boston, but where are like the other institutions that are the keepers of restitution trading? Who is putting that together in the first place? Like you see, like everybody's name has that page. Like even the Nelson Atkinson here in Kansas City has that page of like,

Speaker: We want to make sure that everyone knows we look for looted Nazi art and we go through our stuff and make sure it's not looted. And it's like, well, 1000 % that's not true because every like five years there's some freaking article about how you guys have a day God that was stolen from a family and hungry, right? But it's also like, when you read those pages, it's a lot of fluff and it's a lot of like, what does this mean?

Speaker: What are you doing? What's the strategy? What's the plan here? Give us some concrete examples of times you thought you had something and it wasn't looted or times you thought you had something and it was looted. What are you doing? It's got to be like this boilerplate document they all have from a museum association because it's the same text on every major museum website and it gives you no answers. Unfortunately, we have to

Speaker: wrap things up, but there will absolutely be a part two because how could there not be? There will be parts three and four and five. So we're going to start with this for the last question. We'd love to know if you could put anything in your flux kit, culture quota style, what would be in your flux kit? Okay. I have a question in return.

Speaker: Am I confined to like the dimensions of the flux kit? Like I can't put like a statue in my flux kit. That's a tough question because I feel like I feel like John Cage would not appreciate me putting limits on what fluxes is. However, I think the nature of a flux kit is that it is

Speaker: portable. Okay, fine. So I'm gonna say you could do this, you could also have a fluxes performance, you know, if you wanted to bring a statue to your flexes performance, you know, you I'm gonna say you could do that too. No, I will stick to the dimensions of the flux kit. Oh my god. Okay, like for me. I mean, this is this has been on my mind for a while. I think I would start with a cassette tape of Britney Spears hit me baby one more time.

Speaker: because that is my pop culture, holy grail moment. She's everything. She is pop culture. I mean, I know, and I hate it because like we all, it's a generational thing, right? Like every, like for other people, it's Madonna and stuff and whatever. But for me, it was bringing spirits. It was that baby pink hit me baby one more time with that strawberry blonde hair.

Speaker: I mean, like even as a four -year -old, I can understand that this woman, this young woman was in control for sexuality. Like she was not, like this whole like Britney Spears was used thing. Yes, later, of course. Teenage Britney Spears knew what the hell she was doing, okay? And she was living for herself. So a cassette tape of it, because my first vehicle to that cultural object was listening to Anna Fisher Price, cassette tape player. For sure, a clear lip gloss.

Speaker: Again, we have to keep it with the white. We're going down like, you know, chronological. We got to keep it with the Y2K. I think it's Liz Taylor has that quote of like, and Mindy Kaling kind of repurposes it sometimes about like, you just even get up and like slap on a lipstick, right? For me, it's a clear lip gloss, actually. It's just, it can be classy. It can be trashy. It can be sexy. It can be a lot of things, just no matter how you're wearing the clear lip gloss.

Speaker: And I think it's so of a moment. It's so of like a euro 2004 moment. The reason why I asked about the sculptures is because I put those prisoners in there. But since I can't, but I think would fit the idea of fluxes better is I would put really cheap postcards in the Academia of the prisoners in the flux kit. That was like, that was my art history with me maybe one more time was the first time we went to the Academy as a family. And again,

Speaker: was not a historian of the 14 -year -old girl who had bought a top from H &M that she wanted to show off, okay? And when you turn down the hallway, and there's the David at the end, and he's under the dome, I was like, who the hell are these guys? And they're the prisoners that are on the up, like, that lead up to it. And that was the first time I reckoned with, one, this idea of, like, sculpture is just this idea of, I think, who said it was a depiction of Michelangelo that was, like, sculpture is just freeing the object from, like, the marble slab or whatever.

Speaker: that was the first time I was introduced to that idea. And it was also the first time I saw like a very famous art history piece and was like, that's not as good as this. That's what fluxes is that that's so good. That's such a good addition, because I just feel like the fluxes founders feel like you're, you're getting it. Yeah, like, and I don't want you know, I like that you said that no, not the section because I actually think the chief touristy postcard

Speaker: is a better Fluxus edition anyway. I agree. So those for sure, Marilyn Stockstead edition one compiled the big ass one. Preferably, you know I love her. My favorite people are her stories. Linda Noxland who? Just kidding. Linda Noxland, Wendy, the sister, Whitey Beckett, Marilyn Stockstead. Holy Trinity. Wow. Okay. Wow. Love them. But then again, remember, I'm a white woman who indicated in a white, you know,

Speaker: a patriarchal environment. So please, if you have female art historians or male artisans of color that you like more, let me know, because I will read them and I will add them. This is just what I have ascertained in my very white education. Yeah, definitely Saksak compiled preferably the first edition with no cover, just like kind of the one I have that's ripped. And I will add to that Sister Wendy Beckett's Art History for Children, which is a wonderful book.

Speaker: she's everything she is like one of those weird people that has like huge very serious dry dissertations but then has like a golden pages book about like what to visit with your in france look at the ballerinas no mention of the jockey club by the way look at the ballerinas when they got ballerinas i love the way they look and if you don't know what voice i'm doing you don't know sister what it is it is now

Speaker: you need to Google her, okay? She is on YouTube, all her stuff is on PBS. Where did that voice come from? You don't know it. It's not my problem. Oh my god. Oh my gosh, we have to put some clips on our Instagram. We're gonna do side by side. We're gonna do swipe. I swear to God, you could, she's like,

Speaker: And the way she talks about art, not to get too off -trap, but the way she talks about art is the purest, sweetest thing. She's like, look at this kind of a show. Look at the wife. She's like, his fainty torso is tormented by grape. And you're just like, Sister Wendy, this man was a homosexual and a murderer. And she's just like,

Speaker: whatever. Look at the art. I love it so much. You know what doctors asked me one time because she still loved I think to like play a little devil's advocate with me, but she was like, you know, people say sister Wendy doesn't add anything to the field. I'm like, she's a nun with a list. What does she need to add to the field? She's just here to make sure people like art.

Speaker: not everyone has to have some like PhD level dissertation like completely challenging the field. Let us like let people like what they like. Let's just already help people like what they like. Oh, my I love when we have to leave a conversation but my head is reeling and I just feel it's like I feel complete but incomplete but complete knowing that we will return. So oh, yes. Thank you so much.

Speaker: for finally coming to APT. We always knew this moment was coming. And the fact that it's finally here just brings us so much joy. And everyone go follow culture quota, follow glamour and honey, you know that that shit will be linked in the show notes for you would be tagging them a week, of course, as always. And

Speaker: This will not be the last time we talk about them or any of these things. No, this was so fun. I always say my favorite subject is myself because it's the one I know the most about. Well, you're doing a fucking fabulous job at it. So let's just like. We're talking to me about me. Truly anytime, truly anytime. So with that, everyone, we will talk to you on Tuesday. Bye. Bye.

Speaker: Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci -Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci -Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.