Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
What is the Secret Code to Narnia: CS Lewis & His Hidden Message | Mythic Mirror Ep 27
1 Plays3 seconds ago
Many have wondered what is the meaning behind the Narnia series and what ties all the books together. What sis CS Lewis write into these books that you didn't notice?
Want a free short story about magic, family, and love? Get it here!
Check out Mary's upcoming book launch Here!
Buy the Narnia Code by Michael Ward and support independent bookstores (and the show) at bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Mythic Mirror and Hidden Elements of Narnia
00:00:00
Speaker
What is the hidden element of Narnia? What is the secret to the seven heavens? And what do those two have
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live magical and fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.
00:00:31
Speaker
So I just asked Carolina to read a book for this podcast, and I gave her, what, three days? Yeah. ah So, Carolina, what did you think of The Narnia?
00:00:47
Speaker
First of all, I love being given books. um Second of all, there was a lot in the opening chapters that I really liked and that I felt like really pertained to fantasy. um One of the things that he talked about was atmosphere and how we come back to books for atmosphere. And I feel like that went actually really well with what we were talking about with One Dark Window.
00:01:10
Speaker
um You know, if we were just reading it as a history book and trying to remember facts and figures, we probably wouldn't reread books. But fantasy, we come back for this atmosphere. We already know what happens, so why do we reread books? and It's because you want to go back to that place.
The Hidden Atmosphere in Narnia: C.S. Lewis's Philosophy
00:01:26
Speaker
Now, before we get into this man's theory, Michael Ward's theory of the hidden element, the through line, the theme of the Narnia books, I'm ah let's stop and and talk about this atmosphere idea.
00:01:42
Speaker
It comes from, well what he's quoting in the beginning of this book is an essay by C.S. Lewis called The Kappa Romance.
00:01:53
Speaker
And of course, back then, romance just meant like a fairy tale or a fantasy. Every time I study C.S. Lewis and his works, I always find little jokes that I'm pretty sure he just does for himself.
00:02:07
Speaker
ah So, kapha means hidden element. And in this original essay that the author of The Narnia Code, Michael Ward, is talking about, um it's that essay was all about that very subject, to the atmosphere, this hidden element within the story that makes the story what it is. It's like the the essence.
00:02:31
Speaker
And so... I couldn't find that essay, but I could find on the essay, C.S. Lewis's essay, On Stories, which is the later iteration of his essay on kappa.
00:02:47
Speaker
The funny thing is, this is where his little private joke comes in. The word kappa is never mentioned. So the very meaning and word of kappa becomes the hidden element of his essay on stories.
00:03:04
Speaker
C.S. Lewis opens the essay talking about the difference between the two different kinds of enjoyments of story. And and he's specifically talking about the fairy tale, the what was considered back then the romance, any type of fantasy.
00:03:22
Speaker
and And he said, um excitement gets you through the first read. And then it's this other enjoyment thing. that people so often overlook that is, you know, the especially the people who talk about reading mere romances. They don't see it as real literature. And it's just, you know, plot points.
00:03:44
Speaker
and And he said people come back to reread because of this kappa, this hidden element. this he He said that the story and the plot and the characters are the net in which the author tries to catch this this essence.
00:04:02
Speaker
Right, and I liked ah talking about how C.S. Lewis had this moment in his garden shed where this beam of light was coming through, and he could observe the beam of light coming through and all the dust particles, but then when he put his eye into the beam of light, he was able to see outside, see the green leaves on the trees and the blue sky and the birds, and he called it looking along the beam, and I thought that was an excellent idea Way to think about reading fantasy and getting into that hidden element, getting into that atmosphere where you're not just observing the beam of light from outside, but rather looking into this story and looking along the beam into this world.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love that
Michael Ward's Theory: Planets and Themes in Narnia
00:04:48
Speaker
too. So on that note, let us go into what is the hidden element of the Narnia stories? Mm-hmm. to this author, Michael Ward, who i would say has done an incredible amount of research into C.S. Lewis's writings.
00:05:06
Speaker
Right. And this book is a smaller book of a bigger book he wrote. Which I want to read now, very much. So his his big academic book is called Planet Narnia. And then this is the slimmed down mass market version, which is still very well researched I'd say. Yeah well researched in depth um but a bit of a lighter read I suppose.
00:05:33
Speaker
I think a little introduction to this before we launch right into it. Welcome to your introduction to pre-Copernican astrology. so Astronomy.
00:05:45
Speaker
I've heard it both ways.
00:05:50
Speaker
Pre-Copernicus, I believe that medieval people thought there were seven planets, ah thought these planets held sway over their lives.
00:06:00
Speaker
um Those planets were Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Saturn. They did not include Earth, which I think is a great idea. So...
00:06:15
Speaker
so this author had a similar moment. This wasn't in a tool shed. It was, i think it was laying in bed, but he'd been wondering for a long time, what was the through line of the Narnia books? and And a lot of authors have wondered this and a lot of authors have put their own theories in.
00:06:40
Speaker
And as Michael Ward says, and as I, and I agree with him is a lot of them are kind of shoehorned in And a lot of it is, you know, because there are Christian themes in the Narnia books, many authors have tried to make each book an allegory to some biblical story.
Imagery and Symbolism in Narnia and Fairy Tales
00:07:00
Speaker
And if you read... C.S. Lewis's writings on his own creative process and on those books themselves, it doesn't bear out. He talks about, um you know, he he came up with the Narnia stories first through pictures in his head.
00:07:19
Speaker
You know, first was the the fawn with the umbrella and a package standing in a snowy wood. And he he talks about this with his science fiction books too, where it's this image comes to him first and then the world kind of builds around that. And then he, through that, he discovers his, his theme or what he said about, uh, Paralandra, the, the story of a fall averted came after the kind of shaping of the whole planet and, and, because he had this image of floating islands first.
00:08:00
Speaker
And then that whole came. And then that he said that kind of revealed to him the the whole storyline of a fall averted. And because this was in a um transcribed conversation he was having with another person.
00:08:15
Speaker
And that person was saying kind of that he had assumed it was allegorical in that C.S. Lewis had the idea of Oh, what if the fall didn't happen? Okay. I'm going to make a science fiction story about it and put it into this planet.
00:08:28
Speaker
Um, when it was the other way around and, and CS Lewis said that that's a mistake. a lot of people think that he writes that way. And, and, and then he brought up Narnia saying how, um, you know, Aslan became bounding in and that's when this story took shape.
00:08:47
Speaker
So I, I would say Lewis's own writing, um
00:08:56
Speaker
denies this idea of it all being allegory. So then if that's not true, then what is the through line? He always has, as he said in this, in this essay, he talks about the hidden element of a story. So would be very odd for him not to have something that brings all of these stories together and,
00:09:22
Speaker
creates a cohesive world. He talks about in in another essay, he talks about um the rule of a fairy tale and how it's more strict than just a regular novel because everything has meaning that works within that fairy tale world.
00:09:41
Speaker
ah His example was you know, the frog in this fairy tale had to be a frog. It couldn't be any other animal because of what a frog represents to the human mind. And, you know, the, the face of the frog and what that means and how that coincides with a certain type of human foible, you know, and and how you feel that in the character. So he had to be a frog.
00:10:09
Speaker
Um, you know, actually it wasn't a fairytale. I think he was talking about wind in the willows at that point. He was talking about Mr. Toad. That's right. As I'm telling it, I'm remembering it. And actually I love that part. I highlighted it because he was saying that ah the foibles that Mr. Toad represents as a toad can allow us to to see it more humorously and and be more forgiving and loving of this character than if it was a human.
00:10:47
Speaker
um Anyway, so he could only be, Mr. Toad could only ever be Toad because it's following that, I don't know, like the the the mythos of Wind in the Willows.
00:11:01
Speaker
So getting back to the Narnia books, and why you are talking about these seven
Planetary Themes in Narnia: Jupiter and Mars
00:11:08
Speaker
planets. Yes, I would like to state a disclaimer that I've been just a fan from the beginning. i didn't need a through line. just thought it was a great series.
00:11:17
Speaker
um So yes, obviously we'll be talking about the code that I feel like he does a great deal to Yeah.
00:11:29
Speaker
and beautifully so that you really understand but we're just going to launch right into it so the theme of the narnia code is that each book corresponds with one of these pre-coernican planets um So i think i think the most important one would be like the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe corresponds to Jupiter.
00:11:51
Speaker
um One of the major plot points of this is that Father Christmas enters into the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, which many people have complained about.
00:12:03
Speaker
I don't know why. like okay We're were're mad that Father Christmas showed up. okay I thought he just followed them into Narnia. You know, he's like, he's Father Christmas. He's magical being. Like, it did not seem weird to me that he could just follow them into Narnia.
00:12:22
Speaker
It's not a big deal, but apparently it is a big deal to a lot of people. So Jupiter corresponding to the God Jove, who is where we get the word jovial from, um and all through the line, the witch and the wardrobe, there's this robust kingly theme.
00:12:40
Speaker
Do you want to say more on that? Yeah. i So the reason C.S. Lewis, he he wrote essays on pre-Capernaum astronomy, and he thought that even though it was inaccurate, there was a wisdom there that got lost and a richness there that got lost when, when we changed to a more accurate view.
00:13:04
Speaker
And this goes along also with his on stories essay, ah where he, he talks about using myth to,
00:13:17
Speaker
um kind of re refocus, reacquaint ourselves with reality and the and and the real meat of reality. So it's using these inaccurate stories to find a reality that can't get that we can't get to just through facts.
00:13:35
Speaker
the The symbolism that you can find for each of these planets are embedded into the Narnia books. And this is where the, um the story of, of the tool shed the woodshed comes into play where he, and so he used the Narnia books to help the reader look through the beam. So when you are reading a Narnia book, you are,
00:14:05
Speaker
enveloped, enmeshed, you know, in, in the symbolism and the feeling and the richness of each planet. So he's not telling you it's, it's a, it's a clear show. Don't tell scenario.
00:14:18
Speaker
Uh, and I love that because even in his day, he was being, um, uh, not attacked, but maybe criticized for having Father Christmas in the book and that it breaks the rules of his story world and and everything. And he knew that it followed the rules, the higher rules, so to speak, of his whole um series, but he never gave it away.
00:14:47
Speaker
Because he wanted people to figure it out for himself. If he talked about it, it wouldn't be hidden anymore. So the main symbolism, symbols in of Jupiter and the feeling of Jupiter is, like you said, that jovial, kingly Jupiter.
00:15:01
Speaker
the So it's royalty. Jupiter is kind of the king of the of the planets. All culminates to this grand coronation of the kings and queens at the end. And that is like the big point.
00:15:16
Speaker
And it boils down to a story of two boys who want to be king and how they both think differently about kingship and and why they would want it.
00:15:28
Speaker
Right. Yeah, and one one of the examples of the pre-Copernican view of the planets and the stars that I liked so much in this book was that before it was space, it was the heavens.
00:15:43
Speaker
And here on Earth, we used to look up into the heavens. And what a difference that makes in the human psyche than staring out into cold, dark wilderness of space. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:15:55
Speaker
And we're not going to get we're not going to tell you everything because I think it's good to read the book. But before we get into the next two, should we take a moment for a Discworld delight?
00:16:08
Speaker
So online we had guesses for both Snuff and Raising Steam. The answer is Raising Steam. Very nice.
00:16:21
Speaker
I enjoyed one of the guesses for Raising Steam was just a gif of a train. enjoyed that a bit. Nice. When the severe thin man opened the door, it was too late to flee.
00:16:32
Speaker
When he said, his lordship will see you now, Miss Sugarbean, it was too late to faint. What had she been thinking of? Had she been thinking at all?
00:16:45
Speaker
All right. So getting back into it before we get to the second two planets we're going to be talking about, I have a quote here from the on stories essay, which I loved. And he says, that is one of the functions of art to present what the narrow and desperately practical perspectives of real life exclude.
00:17:07
Speaker
So that is where he's talking about why, you know, you, why write these stories in fantasy at all? Why set it in a magical setting? Why fairy tale or myth?
00:17:21
Speaker
He talks about this in his review of, um, the Lord of the Rings as well. Why, if you're, if it really is about these serious themes, why put it into such a magical, unrealistic world?
00:17:36
Speaker
And his point is that it's, it's actually very similar to what you talked about in, uh, when we were talking about why fantasy is that it, when put into this mytho poetic world, you can bring out more. It's like you can ah bring out a more real essence. Then he talks about um a little kid not wanting to, um,
00:18:06
Speaker
eat its cold slab of meat until he's pretending that it's a buffalo that he's just taken down himself and hunted and then he can eat it. And he says this pretend, this fantasy actually re, ah like not focus, but re like brought back the essential meatness of the meat.
00:18:28
Speaker
ah hey And I've got one more quote here from, well, I have many quotes highlighted. I started realizing if I just have half a page on every page highlighted, but he says he's talking about um
00:18:45
Speaker
science fiction. And so he's saying in, in real life, if you were about to die on a foreign, on another planet,
00:18:55
Speaker
ah you would probably not be having, these you would not be aware of this the more esoteric the more ah poetic deeper feelings of being you know surrounded by space you'd be thinking about how am I going to survive ah the real moon if you could reach it and survive would in a deep and deadly sense, be just like anywhere else. You would find cold, hunger, hardship, and danger. And after the first few hours, they would simply be cold, hunger, hardship, and danger, as you might have them on earth.
00:19:34
Speaker
And death would simply be death among those bleached craters, as it is simply death in a nursing home at Sheffield. No man would find an abiding strangeness on the moon unless he were the sort of man who could find it in his own back garden.
00:19:49
Speaker
he who would bring home the He who would bring home the wealth of the Indies must carry the wealth of the Indies with him.
00:20:04
Speaker
So i I thought that was a good quote for this podcast because we think that's kind of getting at what we talk about here is bringing that sense of wonder to, you know, to our back garden.
00:20:20
Speaker
a So back to the yes back to the sense of wonder of the heavens. Our next book that we're going to be talking about is Prince Gaspian.
00:20:34
Speaker
So our Michael Ward believed that Prince Caspian corresponded with the planet Mars. um Mars is the god of war. This book is very martial.
00:20:45
Speaker
um The kings and queens return, but this time as knights. um There's a lot of emphasis on battle and strategy and the wooden shield of Mars. Yes, so the wooden part is a huge shield. thing as well because C.S. Lewis points out that Mars is not only the martial planet it isn't just about war there's a whole other element to Mars which is the wood the sylvian side and so you see this as well there's so much with the woods and the woods coming alive and the trees yeah because he he has a dryad name specifically keying into this side of Mars.
00:21:32
Speaker
because it's Mars, Sylvanus or something like that, if I remember. The reason for the connection with March is that Mars was not always and only associated with war, but was also responsible under God for bringing growth and greenness to trees and indeed all kinds of vegetation. In this capacity, Mars was known as Mars Silvanus. The word sylvan means related to trees. That is why Lewis put sylvans as well as dryads and hemadryads, different kind of tree spirit, into Prince Caspian.
00:22:05
Speaker
e There it is. I loved this part, reading that chapter and and thinking back to the book. i That was one of the ones I could really feel of the this this tree side of Mars and the silk sylvan and how it's not just you know it's not just a story about soldiers. like okay There's so many little details.
00:22:32
Speaker
that are that is put into these books to give an encompassing feeling of these planets. Like it's it it going back to his, his ah you know, it it could only be a toad.
00:22:49
Speaker
These books can only be what they are. There's so much that he just wove into it that when you're done, you actually have met Mars, though you don't know the name.
00:23:05
Speaker
Just like we said with reading Terry Pratchett, that while you're enjoying it, you're ultimately being changed from the inside out without knowing it. over Before we go on to our last planet, I have, this is a quote from his, from
Fantasy's Reflection of Reality: Insights from Lewis and Tolkien
00:23:23
Speaker
C.S. Lewis's a review of The Lord of the Rings.
00:23:29
Speaker
And he says, a myth points for each reader to the realm he lives in most. It is a master key. Use it on what door you like. And then in the next paragraph, he says, as for escapism, what we chiefly escape is the illusions of or of our ordinary life.
00:23:47
Speaker
With that mind, let's talk about our last planet.
00:23:52
Speaker
I think I was most, um, I think as you read this book, you'll have your moments of, oh, um or like, maybe, um and Really? What were you maybe about?
00:24:05
Speaker
You know, sometimes it just reminded me of the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, where he was like, give me any word and I will show you how it's Greek. And he's like, da-da-da-da, da-da-da, so there you go. I don't know. Sometimes it's like the vibe i got sometimes. Do I think I'm smarter than Michael Ward? No.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's just how I felt at times. But the one that sparked like okay, that I was interested in, um and maybe, I don't know how to explain, like felt the most was the magician's nephew, corresponding with the planet Venus, the morning star, ah creation itself.
00:24:45
Speaker
um You know, that is the book where Aslan sings Narnia into creation. um I think it's you know it's interesting because we go to that wood between the worlds, which I think about often when I'm reading fantasy.
00:25:01
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like my life is the wood between the worlds and anytime I pick up a book that's getting to dive into one of these pools. um So that one i just sort of sparked something for me. Yeah, what were some of the symbols that really sparked for you in that one?
00:25:17
Speaker
This is where we get the apple from Narnia that then grows the tree that then becomes the wardrobe that then becomes the door. Love that. but Yeah, one of the things I love is that each of these planets has its own personality, which you can feel in each of the books.
00:25:36
Speaker
Right. Yeah, that each of these books really does... standalone like and has its very specific atmosphere all unto itself I don't know another series that has such a distinct feeling for each book usually you you stick to one atmosphere for the whole thing I and that is one of the reasons why these books do almost feel like like you said standalone that are all linked together and the
00:26:11
Speaker
Final symbolism that I'll talk about for um the magician's nephew is that Venus is sometimes is called the morning star. Obviously that is associated with both Christ and the very opposite of Christ.
00:26:28
Speaker
And one of the quotes that I thought was very interesting, and not from the magician's nephew actually, but I think from the Voyage of the Dawn Treader when they speak directly to a star And they say stars in our world are just flaming balls of gas or whatever. And the star says, even in your world, that is not all a star is.
00:26:47
Speaker
And that in and and of itself captures just this essence of mysticism that I feel like, yes, in modern life we have lost and yes, is very important to the human life.
00:27:00
Speaker
So other than Narnia, are there any books that you go back to to reread and that have has this same kind of element done well.
Exploration of Hidden Elements in Other Works
00:27:13
Speaker
Definitely the Patricia McKillop books, like Alphabet of Thorn, like we talked about last time. It's um because God knows you don't know what's going on the whole time, so it's not like you're going back for that, but you go to enter into these worlds and live in them.
00:27:30
Speaker
I feel this way about a lot of the fairy tale retellings. Some of them books, Well, let me say, I enjoy some more than others.
00:27:41
Speaker
um The ones that have really put thought into the original fairy tale and pulled out certain things. you know it's it's Everyone's playing in the same sandbox, so to speak, which is part of the fun of seeing what different people create out of the same story.
00:28:01
Speaker
But I think the ones that I really like are the ones that capture some of that original essence of what that fairy tale is saying. ah Kate Stradling is an author, an indie author that I reread most often in the last few years.
00:28:20
Speaker
For that reason, i think she she captures things and it is very much just the the feeling and the that element in her in her work that I go back for.
00:28:33
Speaker
Robin McKinley, I'm thinking about ones that I reread Throughout my life, it would probably be Robin McKinley and Madeline L'Engle. I think she yeah she does that as well.
The Power of C.S. Lewis's Storytelling
00:28:45
Speaker
It was interesting reading C.S. Lewis talking about stories that you know create the net to catch this essence and that a lot of times it's it's almost like the story itself gets in the way.
00:28:59
Speaker
um but in and that you can It's like when you first capture that and then as you go, a lot of times it can kind of get lost.
00:29:12
Speaker
Anytime I read C.S. Lewis, i it' it's a little, it's inspiring and don't, he's such a good writer.
00:29:23
Speaker
Even in his nonfiction stuff, the way he encapsulates things and puts words to to a feeling that you didn't know there could be words to. So to end this,
00:29:36
Speaker
I'm just going to read one more quote from C.S. Lewis. So this is from his review of Lord of the Rings. But why, some ask, why, if you have a serious comment to make on the real life of men, must you do it by talking about a phantasmagoric never-never land of your own?
00:29:54
Speaker
Because, i take it, one of the main things the author wants to say is that the real life of men is of that mythical and heroic quality. One can see the principle at work in his characterization. Much that in a realistic work would be done by character delineation is here done simply by making the character an elf, a dwarf, or a hobbit.
00:30:17
Speaker
The imagined beings have their insides on the outside. They are visible souls. And man as a whole, man pitted against the universe. Have we seen him at all till we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?
00:30:33
Speaker
So... in defense of fantasy. C.S. Lewis says it best. He always does. Thank you for listening. and Next week, we will cover the first half of Two Twisted Crowns. If you've been enjoying this journey with us, please check out Mary's free story, Rueful But Unruled. It is a precursor and belongs in the same world as her upcoming novel, Breaking Inlands.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yes. It's very fun. It, too, has a hidden element. As always, We are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.