Transcript
Speaker: Hi and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host Jennifer Muldowney aka the Glam Reaper herself.
Speaker: Although I'm not looking extremely glamorous today but we're having a day but it's really windy, snowy, rainy, all of the things here in New York so I'm just in my comfies and we're doing a bit of recording from home today.
Speaker: So I hope you're all warm wherever you are and today's episode is...
Speaker: A tough one.
Speaker: We're talking about child's bereavement.
Speaker: So let's take it away.
Speaker: Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Glam Reaper Podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host Jennifer Muldaney aka the Glam Reaper herself.
Speaker: Not looking very glam today but you know whatever we're going with it.
Speaker: It's cold here in New York so I am bundled up.
Speaker: But on today's episode I'm very excited because we have a fellow
Speaker: fish from the other side of the pond and from the uk we have john and john adams and he is the president of the nafd which for anybody who doesn't know that over here is the national association of funeral directories in the uk john welcome hello to you nice to see you again
Speaker: Yeah, we were just saying how it has been, well, it feels like it was ages ago, actually, that we met in Baltimore.
Speaker: And I did laugh because I think you've just recently been on Undertaking the Podcast for a second time.
Speaker: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker: I was on there, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, you recorded with them, with the Fun Boys in Baltimore.
Speaker: And I did hear mention of the Lord Solihon.
Speaker: Adam Jinder strikes again.
Speaker: That's correct.
Speaker: That still cracks me up to this day.
Speaker: That reservation, that absolutely still cracks me up.
Speaker: Yeah, he was just hilarious.
Speaker: I could not believe what happened.
Speaker: But yeah, good times.
Speaker: He can pull it off.
Speaker: And so we might...
Speaker: We might actually get Adam on because I'm sure all the listeners are like, what is this?
Speaker: We want to know.
Speaker: Get him on.
Speaker: Get him on here to look at it as well.
Speaker: I think we have to get him on to reenact the reservation and all that happened.
Speaker: But I am very excited to chat to you today.
Speaker: We're not going to sort of bullshit around here and we're going to get straight to it because you're...
Speaker: Obviously the president of the National Association of Funeral Directors in the UK, but you've got a huge petition going right now.
Speaker: You've been all over sort of the news.
Speaker: You've been all over LinkedIn.
Speaker: You've been traveling around.
Speaker: This is obviously a big thing for you.
Speaker: I know we talked about it at the NFDA back in Baltimore.
Speaker: You know, you spoke about length, about your own personal experience and everything.
Speaker: So I'd love to share the story with my listeners.
Speaker: So, yeah, take it away.
Speaker: Thanks Jennifer.
Speaker: So the petition started when I was actually in Baltimore with you.
Speaker: It went live.
Speaker: And so we've just gone over the halfway point in time and we've just hit 7,500 signatures.
Speaker: We need 10,000 by April 10th.
Speaker: So this petition is to add content on death, dying and bereavements into the national curriculum.
Speaker: And the key part of this, Jennifer, is that it's taught as a compulsory measure.
Speaker: On average in the UK,
Speaker: 111 children will lose a parent every single day.
Speaker: That's every 22 minutes a parent dies.
Speaker: That's not including siblings, uncles, aunties, grandparents, and even pets.
Speaker: So the idea is that we have age appropriate lessons
Speaker: and sessions taught to people in school, and that's going to benefit the person that loses their parents or loses a loved one.
Speaker: It's going to help their friends in the classroom have an understanding of what that person's going through, trying to instill some compassion and empathy all over the UK.
Speaker: It will help the teachers.
Speaker: There are concerns, will teachers have time for this?
Speaker: But my view is, well, actually, this will create a more positive, closer classroom.
Speaker: And then the outcome is a more positive society, a more grateful society and understanding.
Speaker: And these tools as well that are taught at a young age, these will then see you through to adult life.
Speaker: And if you don't have a loss in your life, which is very, very unlikely,
Speaker: If you pass away suddenly and your parents are still alive, again, very unlikely that you go through your life without a close loss.
Speaker: But you'll have an understanding on knowing how to talk to people who are going through a loss.
Speaker: And that's just a kind of society.
Speaker: So who doesn't want to have that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's...
Speaker: It's interesting because, and I actually spoke with some of the media back home in Ireland about this, I think it's about two years ago now, about this idea of introducing sort of bereavement and the, you know, idea of talking to children and should the onus be on teachers and all of that.
Speaker: And we'll get into that.
Speaker: It's like just from my own even personal experience, like when you're growing up, even if you've and I've been very lucky, you know, my parents, my brother, everyone still, you know, but like our goldfish died, like small things like that.
Speaker: Our goldfish died.
Speaker: A pet died.
Speaker: But equally, and actually I think in some ways somewhat more importantly, is it's in their movies.
Speaker: It's in their cartoons.
Speaker: I remember being devastated when Mufasa died in The Lion King.
Speaker: I remember being devastated when Bambi's mum died.
Speaker: And, you know, Pixar and Disney, I have to say, and I've done a bit of research on this because I actually wanted to speak at the child bereavement.
Speaker: There was a convention over here.
Speaker: Because it's children, especially.
Speaker: And unfortunately, I've been doing quite a lot of memorials lately for what I still consider children, teenagers, usually death due to suicide and stuff like that.
Speaker: And it's so important to gather all those kids in a room and.
Speaker: for them to grieve and experience that.
Speaker: And I just think it's in such popular culture.
Speaker: I mean, Pixar have dealt with that, that Coco movie that dealt with it, you know, and whether it's dealing with it on a spiritual level or whether it's dealing with it, um,
Speaker: you know as in if there's an afterlife yeah but it's creating a conversation yeah this is it and and that's what you've been saying as well regardless of your religion or your culture um again some cultures and religions have very sort of strict processes in place which can help with loss but before that on that initial loss the feelings emotions are going to be there regardless what you believe in
Speaker: And that's what we're going to be doing.
Speaker: So like you said, Lion King, when Simba loses his dad, you know, okay, pausing it there, how do we think Simba's feeling?
Speaker: There's levels of guilt, anger, there's sadness, he disappears, but then actually, you know, press play again, look what he does, he takes his dad with him, and that's what life is really.
Speaker: Back to this though, some schools in the UK are already teaching about death, dying and bereavement in schools.
Speaker: It's already happening in some.
Speaker: The vast majority though, the vast majority have nothing in place.
Speaker: And my view is, why should we have to rely on proactive schools and teachers?
Speaker: Why can't we put a net over the whole thing and give everyone an opportunity to learn about such important matters about the feelings associated with the loss?
Speaker: Now, quick question.
Speaker: Are you with, you know, what your petition and seven and a half thousand is amazing, by the way.
Speaker: I mean, you're so close to ten thousand.
Speaker: So hopefully you can get it over the line.
Speaker: But are you is your proposition that teachers will be teaching the children?
Speaker: Will that be?
Speaker: Because I know that can be a bit of a bone of contention that teachers are already dealing with so much that now is this going to be another added thing that they have to add to their to their repertoire?
Speaker: So for me, my dream would be to have someone come in.
Speaker: Like I was taught at primary school about sex education.
Speaker: Someone comes in, teaches about that, and then they disappear.
Speaker: That's how I would like it to be.
Speaker: Again, it's about funding.
Speaker: It's about what's possible.
Speaker: But the sessions are already in place.
Speaker: Companies like Project Eileen, Child Breedment UK, and actually since the BBC article,
Speaker: So many people are coming to me now and saying, we're doing this, I'm doing this in Bury, how can I get this across the whole United Kingdom?
Speaker: So the stuff, it's already happening.
Speaker: You do need that willingness from teachers to obviously deliver it, because it needs to be delivered well, that's the important thing.
Speaker: So the next part of the proposal will be around...
Speaker: exactly what this is.
Speaker: I mean, I've got a letter from the Ministry of Education on my desk here, you know, the conversations are already happening and they are open for conversation.
Speaker: So we're just working now to actually detail exactly what this is going to be.
Speaker: That's the next stage.
Speaker: But as I say, my job, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel.
Speaker: I'm not trying to be the one to take all this on and create lesson plans.
Speaker: The great work is already taking place.
Speaker: As I say, it's only in some areas and at some schools.
Speaker: So my responsibility, I see, is to try and join it all up now, connect to all the dots and get everyone talking and ensure this happens for everyone.
Speaker: And you have, I mean, this is coming from a very emotional place for you as well.
Speaker: I mean, you lost your mum when you were 12, I think, wasn't it?
Speaker: Yeah, 12 years of age.
Speaker: Was there any education around then or, you know, how did you...
Speaker: Nothing at all.
Speaker: So my experience then, in school the communication was non-existent and I keep saying I'm not a victim, I'm not bitter by that because that's how things were and that was normal but it can be so much better.
Speaker: Counselling at that time, I remember having counselling so what's wrong with you, you're a
Speaker: you're it's a bit embarrassing so i think things have moved forward now where counseling is like it's a strength to have counseling yeah and actually it's good to go see counselors when things are fine yeah and so so that's you know that's moved forward um but overall as i say a lot of schools still have nothing in place yeah yeah definitely i mean live as an irish person living in america um
Speaker: And even just the little journey I've been on, it's very interesting.
Speaker: People always sort of say to me that Irish are great at talking about death and we're great at dealing with death.
Speaker: And I actually completely disagree with that.
Speaker: I think we are great at funerals.
Speaker: I think the wake, you know, the fact that we come together as a community, even during times of COVID,
Speaker: we are very community based or historically always have been um but i actually think we're not great at talking about death it's very much you know how we were raised i mean catholic church had a stronghold of ireland so um between your sexuality and death you know those were not topics ever discussed going to therapy was not a thing you know men didn't cry like that was the way we you know
Speaker: Even women, we kind of had to have this sort of stiffness about us.
Speaker: The Irish Mammy is sort of a renowned thing, you know?
Speaker: So that's the way I was reared.
Speaker: So I do, I think it's super important to talk about these things and just living here in the States though, it's incredible with the amount of school shootings that are going on.
Speaker: Like, forget seeing Bambi and Simba, these kids over here are witnessing death.
Speaker: They're witnessing death before they're six years of age.
Speaker: Like that is mind boggling.
Speaker: Like for me, how I got into what I'm doing, you know, I didn't have, wasn't in a funeral home or anything, but for me it was,
Speaker: friends of mine passing away in their 20s.
Speaker: And I was shocked at that because to me it was you died of disease or old age.
Speaker: That was what you died from.
Speaker: So these six-year-olds and seven-year-olds and teenagers are now literally seeing this in front of their eyes.
Speaker: It's not on TV.
Speaker: It's fact.
Speaker: So in the UK now as well, we have a huge increase in suicide here now as well.
Speaker: In the last week, we looked after two gentlemen who have taken their own life.
Speaker: And they weren't in school, but they're teenagers.
Speaker: They're friends.
Speaker: The trauma around that.
Speaker: I've been thinking about it actually the last few days around this as well, with the rise of an increase in suicides.
Speaker: Again, I'm just putting it out there, just thinking out loud.
Speaker: So I'll take your feedback on this as well.
Speaker: But I wonder as well, if and when we get this put through, when we're discussing about emotions and loss and seeing the pain it can cause people, the loss, could that actually help in actually reducing the rate of suicide?
Speaker: Because they'll know, even though they're in a state where it's just, I'm sorry, I can't believe anybody else, this just needs to happen.
Speaker: After learning about how their parents and their family might feel, it might be a little poor to say, actually, I won't do this.
Speaker: can't do this.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: I mean, and I've, me and my colleagues and stuff have talked about this so much in the last month or so, because like that, I just feel it's one person after another.
Speaker: It's teenagers, you know, a lot of men, their 20s, 30s and 40s and stuff.
Speaker: And it's just, it feels like a different kind of pandemic, to be honest.
Speaker: That's honestly how I feel.
Speaker: And it's the tragedy of mental health is that
Speaker: you can never, ever assume or understand what that person was going through and will never, ever get answers.
Speaker: And that's the difficulty of those who are left behind is that they never do get those answers.
Speaker: And I'm actually super excited because I am going to be having a doctor who is, I never even heard of this term before I'd met her, a suicidologist.
Speaker: So I'm going to be getting her on the show soon as well.
Speaker: And she obviously is educated and all things.
Speaker: because I'm fascinated by the human brain and sort of psychology and how, you know, we're all so different that there is no one blanket cure-all.
Speaker: But like you said, if it may be at an early stage, we're at least engaging in these conversations with these kids, and especially I feel for men, again, maybe it's just coming from Ireland, but, you know, I remember the first time I saw my dad cry, he was in his...
Speaker: 40s after his brother died it's so unusual you know usually it's kind of and and the British the stiff upper lip you know it's there's we're kind of taught not to have these emotions um so I think for for kids just to be allowed to experience that and if it's god I mean if it's a tragedy like a shooting or a suicide of a class member that that they see the permanence of it like I
Speaker: and I know this is kind of doesn't fit all, but, you know, suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.
Speaker: And most people who've, and again, not most, because again, mental health, it's so unique to everybody, but a lot of people who have suffered depression, even I've had little bouts myself.
Speaker: I spoke about it with Barbara Chemis of Cana before, you know, about funeral directors and stuff.
Speaker: Everybody experiences low points.
Speaker: But most people will say that
Speaker: while they thought they couldn't go on anymore or however dark it got, years later, they're like, I'm so glad I just kept going because now my life, I'm the happiest I've ever been or whatever it might be.
Speaker: And some people are still struggling and, you know, maybe always will and stuff, but it is, it's a permanent, it's a permanent solution.
Speaker: And I just, I wish more of these kids would, would realize that I think.
Speaker: And on that, it's, it'll be, it's, it's, it's easier to,
Speaker: It's easier to build young people than repair and try and fix old people.
Speaker: And that's the key, it's education at a younger age.
Speaker: So again, try and instill compassion and empathy in the people.
Speaker: Not only will that have benefits on what you're saying here, but on the, you know, growing up to realize that having a Bugatti is not actually, you know, it's nice, but it's not actually a priority in life.
Speaker: It's how we treat people.
Speaker: That's the priority.
Speaker: That's exactly it.
Speaker: And it's even, you know, even for me and it's small, small things, but I'm very honoured.
Speaker: Actually, I'm speaking at the Irish Consulate here in New York next week on a panel of quote unquote extraordinary women who are sort of challenging stereotypically male roles.
Speaker: And while that's a great honour, absolutely.
Speaker: Like, again, I feel like
Speaker: We just have to take, and my TEDx talk was even about this, we just have to take judgment away from situations.
Speaker: For example, a child who maybe their goldfish died and he's crying.
Speaker: You know, mom or dad might say, oh, for God's sake, it's only a goldfish.
Speaker: Come on, we'll bury him in the backyard.
Speaker: Maybe having that facility in school where he can actually cry and can let his feelings out.
Speaker: I know for me as a 40 year old woman, you know, I'm expected to have had kids and a husband and, you know, kind of the certain expectations.
Speaker: And, you know, maybe that is.
Speaker: It's judgmental.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: it's people putting their own judgment and their own idea of what perfect life should be I mean I'm the happiest I ever am and I also know some people with kids like that's why but you know it's putting these judgments on people like oh you're this so you should be that you're whatever so you should be this you're from this country so you should be that you know it's just really just letting people grieve in their own way as well and that's to it you know I have a bit of an issue actually and I think
Speaker: This petition and the last couple of years, it's starting to really highlight it.
Speaker: I mean, my teaching I do as well.
Speaker: There's all these breathing models and cycles of grief.
Speaker: I find them very irritating.
Speaker: I think we need to just start again almost.
Speaker: Death is unique.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: Emotions are unique.
Speaker: So I think that's half the problem.
Speaker: We have these diagrams.
Speaker: This is how we should be feeling.
Speaker: This is where you could be at.
Speaker: Well, actually, no.
Speaker: Obviously you need something, you need some foundations down to try and help people but it's about communication and people knowing actually today you had a little laugh, that's also fine, that's okay, don't punish yourself for that.
Speaker: So you just need to almost I think start again with all this stuff really.
Speaker: It's and it's you know what it's you've actually touched on something that I often talk about in terms of even what I do.
Speaker: Because a lot of people when I started what I do people thought oh she's just throwing a party and she you know she's making light of a situation and dancing on people's graves and that sort of thing and I'm like that's absolutely not what I'm trying to do at all.
Speaker: And I do think as a society, we do sort of need a blueprint.
Speaker: And I think that's why these grief models and I think that's why they all sort of work for us because we're like, oh, I'm in denial now.
Speaker: OK, there's a comfort to that.
Speaker: And I actually firmly believe in the ritual of a funeral.
Speaker: What I just believe is that we're all completely unique and different and not everyone wants to go to a Catholic church or go to a funeral.
Speaker: Some people want to have it by the beach.
Speaker: Some people want to have it in a hotel room.
Speaker: Some people, everyone, we're all just completely different.
Speaker: That's what I believe.
Speaker: It's not that I'm trying to get rid of the funeral.
Speaker: I actually think the funeral is a super important part of your grief process.
Speaker: And I think exactly that.
Speaker: It gives people a blueprint of, okay, this is what they're having.
Speaker: They're having a service for Sarah, we'll say.
Speaker: They're having a service for Sarah.
Speaker: Okay, I can show up and this is how I show my support.
Speaker: We as a society do sort of need parameters to guide us, I think.
Speaker: Guidance.
Speaker: We need guidance.
Speaker: But it's not boxing us in.
Speaker: It's not, shouldn't be boxed in.
Speaker: And that's, again, what we do here and what I pride myself on is about how we empower people.
Speaker: and it's on the BBC.
Speaker: That sounds great.
Speaker: It's actually how you action that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And actually, it's hard to me.
Speaker: The funeral service is that platform to say goodbye to someone.
Speaker: But actually, there's lots of things we can do along the way as well, which form part of that process of letting go and allowing people to move forward in the most positive way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Things like...
Speaker: allowing families and telling families it's okay if they wanted to be the ones to close the coffin.
Speaker: We'd be there to guide them again.
Speaker: The Leith family that are on the BBC with me, we have a little sky machine here which takes fingerprints of the deceased.
Speaker: I said, do you want to help me do that?
Speaker: I mean, that'd be great.
Speaker: And we actually then ended up taking all their fingerprints and all those fingerprints now are on the headstone of all the family.
Speaker: But they were part of that process.
Speaker: You know, we were in there and they were giggling and it was just so special.
Speaker: And that's how it can be.
Speaker: A mother who lost her son to suicide,
Speaker: She came in here desperate, fear factor, totally out of her depth, had no control.
Speaker: And it was about giving her control and telling her that her son is still hers and now offering her things to make her know that her son is hers.
Speaker: So she came to our mortuary.
Speaker: We changed the environment in the mortuary.
Speaker: I showed her a mortuary first as a mortuary.
Speaker: the sounds of the refrigeration units on.
Speaker: Took them back down to the reception, had a cup of tea, and then during that time, myself and my colleague Darren, we put the candles on, turned off the sound of the refrigeration, put on their favorite soundtrack, it was Queen, played just quietly in the background, take away the silence.
Speaker: And she came back up and she was really unsure, really, really fearful about how to, what to expect.
Speaker: And her son's taken his own life.
Speaker: So just the actual overwhelming feeling of that.
Speaker: But then going up there and she was part of it all by putting his socks on was so special and,
Speaker: And it was just so, so beautiful.
Speaker: And that actually is as important as the female service as well.
Speaker: But again, it's about the industry listening to their clients to ensure that the family have everything they need.
Speaker: And that can be really, really simple or really, really detailed and personal.
Speaker: The key thing is, I'm always thinking, where will we be tomorrow and where will we be in five years' time?
Speaker: And that's what our responsibility is, is to ensure that they have everything they need to ensure they move forward in the right way.
Speaker: And that's so refreshing to hear because it's not many that say that because it's one thing I'm always pushing or saying, pushing by saying is that it's about meeting families where they're at.
Speaker: It's not about where you want your casket sales to be our coffin sales or, you know, it's not what you think it should happen.
Speaker: But casket sales, you know,
Speaker: I'm aware, I'm aware that's, you know, culture in a culture of the UK, it's different to America.
Speaker: I'm aware of that.
Speaker: But my view is if you make it exactly what they want, and like for a cremation for us, I'll suggest, you know, a basic coffin.
Speaker: because I think all that's required.
Speaker: But surely if you're looking after the family to the highest of standards, over time, you're going to serve more people due to the standards you offer and that actually it's genuine care and it's just about there.
Speaker: Yeah, well, it should be.
Speaker: It absolutely should be like that, John.
Speaker: But there is, you know, I know some of my families themselves have called me and are horrified by certain car salesman attitudes that they kind of get.
Speaker: And, you know, look, that's the unfortunate part is there are those, like every industry, there's the good and the bad, you know.
Speaker: And so, unfortunately, sometimes the bad stories get out there, you know, like,
Speaker: during COVID here, the bodies were sort of racking up and, you know, and then there was the famous case of the woman who was, or the two women who were selling body parts just there recently.
Speaker: I mean, those are the ones that make the news, unfortunately.
Speaker: And then they're the ones that change the rest of the industry.
Speaker: Whereas,
Speaker: Like the things that like what you're doing with trying to get this bereavement care into curriculum in the UK don't make the news as much.
Speaker: And that can be very frustrating, I find.
Speaker: For me now, as we move forward, what I'd really like to do is highlight
Speaker: the special work, the sector in the US, the UK, all over Europe, what we do, it's, I think we undervalue ourselves in this industry.
Speaker: We undervalue the level we work at.
Speaker: You know, people in their darkest time come to us and we have to be reactive because they're walking through the doors in their darkest time and we have to look after them and help them.
Speaker: And the vast majority of funeral homes in the United Kingdom that I know are doing amazing work.
Speaker: it's all off the radar um i said before the key workers are clapping on the doorsteps the key workers nhs staff you know i was there clapping as well rightly so but actually it appears that the funeral industry is not part of that category and we really we really should be we really should be and i believe that actually once we get into that category coffin sales doesn't become the priority because we know our worth and we know what we're doing it for
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I think it will come back round where, again, we just remember how special the role is.
Speaker: Well, that's it.
Speaker: And I think it absolutely will come back round.
Speaker: And I think it has to come back round, John, because there's so many other innovators now who have had poor experiences, who have then innovated within the industry or whatever it might be.
Speaker: So the direct cremations, you know, and all of these other players that are coming into the field.
Speaker: Like I've said, my good friend, Larry, we had, I think, a whole podcast about it where, you know, it nearly shouldn't be about putting money on each item.
Speaker: It should be about a consultancy fee, valuing your job.
Speaker: The job of a funeral director is incredible.
Speaker: And it is exactly like a nurse and a doctor.
Speaker: You're with people when they need it the most.
Speaker: So stop devaluing yourself and value the service you're giving.
Speaker: And I think if you're nearly looking at it like commodity, like, oh, money on this, money on that, then you're completely devaluing and devaluing.
Speaker: you're yeah it's just not gonna work but so I do think it will evolve to that for sure and it needs a soul though to sort of speak out and actually remind people how special the role is oh and I know really in our society is the word we do but again though like with the treatment awareness stuff it's all under the radar we don't discuss that well actually it's time we should discuss it because actually the results will be a lot more positive
Speaker: Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker: 100%.
Speaker: Well, listen, amazing to talk to you, as always.
Speaker: And thank you so much for sharing.
Speaker: Tell us the petition.
Speaker: I know, obviously, I'm based in New York and then from Ireland.
Speaker: Can Irish people vote or is it just UK?
Speaker: So it's UK.
Speaker: It's UK.
Speaker: Well, we'll share the link anyway and sure we'll see you.
Speaker: That'd be fantastic.
Speaker: It's on the NEFD website.
Speaker: You'll see it all over social media now.
Speaker: And if you just Google add content on deaf dying and reading the national curriculum, it should pop up.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: It'd be fantastic if you can support it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Listeners are going to get behind it.
Speaker: Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker: Well, we wish you the absolute best of luck with it.
Speaker: You've only got another two and a half thousand.
Speaker: That's nothing.
Speaker: You should be absolutely right.
Speaker: I'm pleased.
Speaker: It's been an interesting time.
Speaker: It's been about the psychology of how people actually engage with it as well.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I'm really grateful for everyone getting behind it.
Speaker: Good, good.
Speaker: There's always going to be naysayers out there, but you just have to keep plowing on through.
Speaker: I like those.
Speaker: I want to meet more of those.
Speaker: Love a challenge.
Speaker: Yeah, I do.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, John.
Speaker: And sure, we'll watch this space and maybe we'll get you back on when it's been approved and see what your next steps are.
Speaker: Thanks, Jennifer.
Speaker: Thanks, John.
Speaker: Thanks so much.
Speaker: So what did you think of today's episode?
Speaker: Hopefully it didn't affect too many of you too harshly.
Speaker: Definitely if you're in the UK, check out the petition, see if you're interested in signing it or not.
Speaker: And we'd love to hear from you on this and any other topics that we talk on the Glamour Reaper podcast.
Speaker: Shoot us an email, glamourreperpodcast at gmail.com and we'll talk to you soon.
