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John Adams: Helping Children Grieve Better through Bereavement Education
19 Plays3 years ago
The current national curriculum teaches children how life begins. Sadly, however, they are not taught how to comprehend and cope with the reality of how life ends.
In this conversation with John Adams, president of the National Association of Funeral Directors (NAFD) in the UK, he talks about a petition he has spearheaded, pushing for bereavement as a mandatory subject in schools.
And while this topic is a tough one, it is very important to equip children with the skills to understand death and not to brush away the emotions of a child with regards to bereavement. For example, when a child's pet goldfish dies and the child is crying, parents should not dismiss the child's emotions as insignificant simply because it was "only a fish”.
Listen to this episode and learn more about how you can help children grieve better through bereavement education, and what you can do to support John’s petition.
LITTLE NUGGETS OF GOLD:
- What is the purpose of John Adams' campaign or petition for the inclusion of bereavement in the UK's national curriculum?
- Is John proposing that school teachers should be teaching the curriculum?
- The importance of education and counseling for the mental health of children witnessing death, regardless of its form.
- What kind of parameters and guidelines does our society need in order to get rid of the stigma around death?
- John’s thoughts on coffin/casket sales
Resources:
If you are in UK and would like to sign the online petition, you can go to this link: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/636718
Connect with John Adams:
LinkedIn - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/john-adams-04b567208
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper:
Facebook Page - Muldowney Memorials: https://www.facebook.com/MuldowneyMemorials/
Facebook Page - Rainbow Bridge Memorials: https://www.facebook.com/rainbowbridgememorialsdotcom
Instagram - @muldowneymemorials & @jennifermuldowney
Twitter - @TheGlamReaper
Email us here: glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast.
00:00:03
Speaker
I'm your host Jennifer Muldowney aka the Glam Reaper herself.
00:00:07
Speaker
Although I'm not looking extremely glamorous today but we're having a day but it's really windy, snowy, rainy, all of the things here in New York so I'm just in my comfies and we're doing a bit of recording from home today.
00:00:19
Speaker
So I hope you're all warm wherever you are and today's episode is...
00:00:26
Speaker
A tough one.
00:00:26
Speaker
We're talking about child's bereavement.
00:00:29
Speaker
So let's take it away.
Guest Introduction: John Adams
00:00:41
Speaker
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Glam Reaper Podcast.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm your host Jennifer Muldaney aka the Glam Reaper herself.
00:00:48
Speaker
Not looking very glam today but you know whatever we're going with it.
00:00:51
Speaker
It's cold here in New York so I am bundled up.
00:00:54
Speaker
But on today's episode I'm very excited because we have a fellow
00:00:58
Speaker
fish from the other side of the pond and from the uk we have john and john adams and he is the president of the nafd which for anybody who doesn't know that over here is the national association of funeral directories in the uk john welcome hello to you nice to see you again
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, we were just saying how it has been, well, it feels like it was ages ago, actually, that we met in Baltimore.
00:01:25
Speaker
And I did laugh because I think you've just recently been on Undertaking the Podcast for a second time.
00:01:32
Speaker
Yes, that's correct.
00:01:33
Speaker
I was on there, yeah.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, you recorded with them, with the Fun Boys in Baltimore.
00:01:39
Speaker
And I did hear mention of the Lord Solihon.
00:01:43
Speaker
Adam Jinder strikes again.
00:01:46
Speaker
That's correct.
00:01:47
Speaker
That still cracks me up to this day.
00:01:50
Speaker
That reservation, that absolutely still cracks me up.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, he was just hilarious.
00:01:57
Speaker
I could not believe what happened.
00:01:59
Speaker
But yeah, good times.
00:02:01
Speaker
He can pull it off.
00:02:03
Speaker
And so we might...
00:02:04
Speaker
We might actually get Adam on because I'm sure all the listeners are like, what is this?
00:02:07
Speaker
We want to know.
00:02:08
Speaker
Get him on.
00:02:08
Speaker
Get him on here to look at it as well.
00:02:11
Speaker
I think we have to get him on to reenact the reservation and all that happened.
00:02:16
Speaker
But I am very excited to chat to you today.
00:02:20
Speaker
We're not going to sort of bullshit around here and we're going to get straight to it because you're...
Advocating Bereavement Education in Schools
00:02:27
Speaker
Obviously the president of the National Association of Funeral Directors in the UK, but you've got a huge petition going right now.
00:02:37
Speaker
You've been all over sort of the news.
00:02:39
Speaker
You've been all over LinkedIn.
00:02:40
Speaker
You've been traveling around.
00:02:41
Speaker
This is obviously a big thing for you.
00:02:43
Speaker
I know we talked about it at the NFDA back in Baltimore.
00:02:48
Speaker
You know, you spoke about length, about your own personal experience and everything.
00:02:52
Speaker
So I'd love to share the story with my listeners.
00:02:55
Speaker
So, yeah, take it away.
00:02:57
Speaker
Thanks Jennifer.
00:02:57
Speaker
So the petition started when I was actually in Baltimore with you.
00:03:03
Speaker
It went live.
00:03:05
Speaker
And so we've just gone over the halfway point in time and we've just hit 7,500 signatures.
00:03:12
Speaker
We need 10,000 by April 10th.
00:03:18
Speaker
So this petition is to add content on death, dying and bereavements into the national curriculum.
00:03:24
Speaker
And the key part of this, Jennifer, is that it's taught as a compulsory measure.
00:03:30
Speaker
On average in the UK,
00:03:33
Speaker
111 children will lose a parent every single day.
00:03:36
Speaker
That's every 22 minutes a parent dies.
00:03:39
Speaker
That's not including siblings, uncles, aunties, grandparents, and even pets.
00:03:46
Speaker
So the idea is that we have age appropriate lessons
00:03:51
Speaker
and sessions taught to people in school, and that's going to benefit the person that loses their parents or loses a loved one.
00:03:59
Speaker
It's going to help their friends in the classroom have an understanding of what that person's going through, trying to instill some compassion and empathy all over the UK.
00:04:08
Speaker
It will help the teachers.
00:04:10
Speaker
There are concerns, will teachers have time for this?
00:04:12
Speaker
But my view is, well, actually, this will create a more positive, closer classroom.
00:04:18
Speaker
And then the outcome is a more positive society, a more grateful society and understanding.
00:04:25
Speaker
And these tools as well that are taught at a young age, these will then see you through to adult life.
Personal Experiences with Loss
00:04:32
Speaker
And if you don't have a loss in your life, which is very, very unlikely,
00:04:38
Speaker
If you pass away suddenly and your parents are still alive, again, very unlikely that you go through your life without a close loss.
00:04:48
Speaker
But you'll have an understanding on knowing how to talk to people who are going through a loss.
00:04:53
Speaker
And that's just a kind of society.
00:04:56
Speaker
So who doesn't want to have that?
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:59
Speaker
And it's...
00:05:01
Speaker
It's interesting because, and I actually spoke with some of the media back home in Ireland about this, I think it's about two years ago now, about this idea of introducing sort of bereavement and the, you know, idea of talking to children and should the onus be on teachers and all of that.
00:05:18
Speaker
And we'll get into that.
00:05:20
Speaker
It's like just from my own even personal experience, like when you're growing up, even if you've and I've been very lucky, you know, my parents, my brother, everyone still, you know, but like our goldfish died, like small things like that.
00:05:34
Speaker
Our goldfish died.
00:05:36
Speaker
A pet died.
00:05:37
Speaker
But equally, and actually I think in some ways somewhat more importantly, is it's in their movies.
00:05:43
Speaker
It's in their cartoons.
00:05:44
Speaker
I remember being devastated when Mufasa died in The Lion King.
00:05:49
Speaker
I remember being devastated when Bambi's mum died.
00:05:52
Speaker
And, you know, Pixar and Disney, I have to say, and I've done a bit of research on this because I actually wanted to speak at the child bereavement.
00:06:02
Speaker
There was a convention over here.
00:06:04
Speaker
Because it's children, especially.
00:06:07
Speaker
And unfortunately, I've been doing quite a lot of memorials lately for what I still consider children, teenagers, usually death due to suicide and stuff like that.
00:06:16
Speaker
And it's so important to gather all those kids in a room and.
00:06:21
Speaker
for them to grieve and experience that.
00:06:23
Speaker
And I just think it's in such popular
Cultural Perspectives on Death
00:06:26
Speaker
culture.
00:06:26
Speaker
I mean, Pixar have dealt with that, that Coco movie that dealt with it, you know, and whether it's dealing with it on a spiritual level or whether it's dealing with it, um,
00:06:38
Speaker
you know as in if there's an afterlife yeah but it's creating a conversation yeah this is it and and that's what you've been saying as well regardless of your religion or your culture um again some cultures and religions have very sort of strict processes in place which can help with loss but before that on that initial loss the feelings emotions are going to be there regardless what you believe in
00:07:01
Speaker
And that's what we're going to be doing.
00:07:03
Speaker
So like you said, Lion King, when Simba loses his dad, you know, okay, pausing it there, how do we think Simba's feeling?
00:07:11
Speaker
There's levels of guilt, anger, there's sadness, he disappears, but then actually, you know, press play again, look what he does, he takes his dad with him, and that's what life is really.
00:07:23
Speaker
Back to this though, some schools in the UK are already teaching about death, dying and bereavement in schools.
00:07:29
Speaker
It's already happening in some.
00:07:31
Speaker
The vast majority though, the vast majority have nothing in place.
00:07:36
Speaker
And my view is, why should we have to rely on proactive schools and teachers?
00:07:42
Speaker
Why can't we put a net over the whole thing and give everyone an opportunity to learn about such important matters about the feelings associated with the loss?
00:07:52
Speaker
Now, quick question.
00:07:53
Speaker
Are you with, you know, what your petition and seven and a half thousand is amazing, by the way.
00:07:58
Speaker
I mean, you're so close to ten thousand.
00:08:00
Speaker
So hopefully you can get it over the line.
00:08:02
Speaker
But are you is your proposition that teachers will be teaching the children?
00:08:08
Speaker
Will that be?
00:08:08
Speaker
Because I know that can be a bit of a bone of contention that teachers are already dealing with so much that now is this going to be another added thing that they have to add to their to their repertoire?
00:08:19
Speaker
So for me, my dream would be to have someone come in.
00:08:25
Speaker
Like I was taught at primary school about sex education.
00:08:28
Speaker
Someone comes in, teaches about that, and then they disappear.
00:08:32
Speaker
That's how I would like it to be.
00:08:35
Speaker
Again, it's about funding.
00:08:36
Speaker
It's about what's possible.
00:08:38
Speaker
But the sessions are already in place.
00:08:40
Speaker
Companies like Project Eileen, Child Breedment UK, and actually since the BBC article,
00:08:46
Speaker
So many people are coming to me now and saying, we're doing this, I'm doing this in Bury, how can I get this across the whole United Kingdom?
00:08:54
Speaker
So the stuff, it's already happening.
00:08:57
Speaker
You do need that willingness from teachers to obviously deliver it, because it needs to be delivered well, that's the important thing.
00:09:05
Speaker
So the next part of the proposal will be around...
00:09:09
Speaker
exactly what this is.
00:09:11
Speaker
I mean, I've got a letter from the Ministry of Education on my desk here, you know, the conversations are already happening and they are open for conversation.
00:09:19
Speaker
So we're just working now to actually detail exactly what this is going to be.
00:09:25
Speaker
That's the next stage.
00:09:26
Speaker
But as I say, my job, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel.
00:09:29
Speaker
I'm not trying to be the one to take all this on and create lesson plans.
00:09:33
Speaker
The great work is already taking place.
00:09:36
Speaker
As I say, it's only in some areas and at some schools.
00:09:39
Speaker
So my responsibility, I see, is to try and join it all up now, connect to all the dots and get everyone talking and ensure this happens for everyone.
00:09:49
Speaker
And you have, I mean, this is coming from a very emotional place for you
Impact of Loss at a Young Age
00:09:53
Speaker
as well.
00:09:53
Speaker
I mean, you lost your mum when you were 12, I think, wasn't it?
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, 12 years of age.
00:09:59
Speaker
Was there any education around then or, you know, how did you...
00:10:04
Speaker
Nothing at all.
00:10:05
Speaker
So my experience then, in school the communication was non-existent and I keep saying I'm not a victim, I'm not bitter by that because that's how things were and that was normal but it can be so much better.
00:10:21
Speaker
Counselling at that time, I remember having counselling so what's wrong with you, you're a
00:10:26
Speaker
you're it's a bit embarrassing so i think things have moved forward now where counseling is like it's a strength to have counseling yeah and actually it's good to go see counselors when things are fine yeah and so so that's you know that's moved forward um but overall as i say a lot of schools still have nothing in place yeah yeah definitely i mean live as an irish person living in america um
00:10:55
Speaker
And even just the little journey I've been on, it's very interesting.
00:10:59
Speaker
People always sort of say to me that Irish are great at talking about death and we're great at dealing with death.
00:11:06
Speaker
And I actually completely disagree with that.
00:11:08
Speaker
I think we are great at funerals.
00:11:11
Speaker
I think the wake, you know, the fact that we come together as a community, even during times of COVID,
00:11:16
Speaker
we are very community based or historically always have been um but i actually think we're not great at talking about death it's very much you know how we were raised i mean catholic church had a stronghold of ireland so um between your sexuality and death you know those were not topics ever discussed going to therapy was not a thing you know men didn't cry like that was the way we you know
00:11:39
Speaker
Even women, we kind of had to have this sort of stiffness about us.
00:11:42
Speaker
The Irish Mammy is sort of a renowned thing, you know?
00:11:46
Speaker
So that's the way I was reared.
00:11:49
Speaker
So I do, I think it's super important to talk about these things and just living here in the States though, it's incredible with the amount of school shootings that are going on.
00:11:58
Speaker
Like, forget seeing Bambi and Simba, these kids over here are witnessing death.
00:12:05
Speaker
They're witnessing death before they're six years of age.
00:12:09
Speaker
Like that is mind boggling.
00:12:10
Speaker
Like for me, how I got into what I'm doing, you know, I didn't have, wasn't in a funeral home or anything, but for me it was,
00:12:17
Speaker
friends of mine passing away in their 20s.
00:12:20
Speaker
And I was shocked at that because to me it was you died of disease or old age.
00:12:24
Speaker
That was what you died from.
00:12:25
Speaker
So these six-year-olds and seven-year-olds and teenagers are now literally seeing this in front of their eyes.
00:12:31
Speaker
It's not on TV.
00:12:32
Speaker
It's fact.
00:12:34
Speaker
So in the UK now as well, we have a huge increase in suicide here now as well.
00:12:38
Speaker
In the last week, we looked after two gentlemen who have taken their own life.
00:12:44
Speaker
And they weren't in school, but they're teenagers.
00:12:49
Speaker
They're friends.
00:12:51
Speaker
The trauma around that.
00:12:52
Speaker
I've been thinking about it actually the last few days around this as well, with the rise of an increase in suicides.
00:12:59
Speaker
Again, I'm just putting it out there, just thinking out loud.
00:13:02
Speaker
So I'll take your feedback on this as well.
00:13:06
Speaker
But I wonder as well, if and when we get this put through, when we're discussing about emotions and loss and seeing the pain it can cause people, the loss, could that actually help in actually reducing the rate of suicide?
Linking Bereavement Education to Mental Health
00:13:21
Speaker
Because they'll know, even though they're in a state where it's just, I'm sorry, I can't believe anybody else, this just needs to happen.
00:13:31
Speaker
After learning about how their parents and their family might feel, it might be a little poor to say, actually, I won't do this.
00:13:38
Speaker
can't do this.
00:13:40
Speaker
That's it.
00:13:40
Speaker
I mean, and I've, me and my colleagues and stuff have talked about this so much in the last month or so, because like that, I just feel it's one person after another.
00:13:51
Speaker
It's teenagers, you know, a lot of men, their 20s, 30s and 40s and stuff.
00:13:57
Speaker
And it's just, it feels like a different kind of pandemic, to be honest.
00:14:00
Speaker
That's honestly how I feel.
00:14:02
Speaker
And it's the tragedy of mental health is that
00:14:07
Speaker
you can never, ever assume or understand what that person was going through and will never, ever get answers.
00:14:14
Speaker
And that's the difficulty of those who are left behind is that they never do get those answers.
00:14:18
Speaker
And I'm actually super excited because I am going to be having a doctor who is, I never even heard of this term before I'd met her, a suicidologist.
00:14:27
Speaker
So I'm going to be getting her on the show soon as well.
00:14:31
Speaker
And she obviously is educated and all things.
00:14:33
Speaker
because I'm fascinated by the human brain and sort of psychology and how, you know, we're all so different that there is no one blanket cure-all.
00:14:42
Speaker
But like you said, if it may be at an early stage, we're at least engaging in these conversations with these kids, and especially I feel for men, again, maybe it's just coming from Ireland, but, you know, I remember the first time I saw my dad cry, he was in his...
00:14:59
Speaker
40s after his brother died it's so unusual you know usually it's kind of and and the British the stiff upper lip you know it's there's we're kind of taught not to have these emotions um so I think for for kids just to be allowed to experience that and if it's god I mean if it's a tragedy like a shooting or a suicide of a class member that that they see the permanence of it like I
00:15:25
Speaker
and I know this is kind of doesn't fit all, but, you know, suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.
00:15:34
Speaker
And most people who've, and again, not most, because again, mental health, it's so unique to everybody, but a lot of people who have suffered depression, even I've had little bouts myself.
00:15:44
Speaker
I spoke about it with Barbara Chemis of Cana before, you know, about funeral directors and stuff.
00:15:49
Speaker
Everybody experiences low points.
00:15:52
Speaker
But most people will say that
00:15:55
Speaker
while they thought they couldn't go on anymore or however dark it got, years later, they're like, I'm so glad I just kept going because now my life, I'm the happiest I've ever been or whatever it might be.
00:16:08
Speaker
And some people are still struggling and, you know, maybe always will and stuff, but it is, it's a permanent, it's a permanent solution.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I just, I wish more of these kids would, would realize that I think.
00:16:19
Speaker
And on that, it's, it'll be, it's, it's, it's easier to,
00:16:25
Speaker
It's easier to build young people than repair and try and fix old people.
00:16:32
Speaker
And that's the key, it's education at a younger age.
00:16:35
Speaker
So again, try and instill compassion and empathy in the people.
00:16:40
Speaker
Not only will that have benefits on what you're saying here, but on the, you know, growing up to realize that having a Bugatti is not actually, you know, it's nice, but it's not actually a priority in life.
00:16:50
Speaker
It's how we treat people.
00:16:51
Speaker
That's the priority.
00:16:54
Speaker
That's exactly it.
00:16:55
Speaker
And it's even, you know, even for me and it's small, small things, but I'm very honoured.
00:17:02
Speaker
Actually, I'm speaking at the Irish Consulate here in New York next week on a panel of quote unquote extraordinary women who are sort of challenging stereotypically male roles.
00:17:14
Speaker
And while that's a great honour, absolutely.
00:17:17
Speaker
Like, again, I feel like
00:17:18
Speaker
We just have to take, and my TEDx talk was even about this, we just have to take judgment away from situations.
00:17:25
Speaker
For example, a child who maybe their goldfish died and he's crying.
00:17:30
Speaker
You know, mom or dad might say, oh, for God's sake, it's only a goldfish.
00:17:33
Speaker
Come on, we'll bury him in the backyard.
00:17:35
Speaker
Maybe having that facility in school where he can actually cry and can let his feelings out.
00:17:40
Speaker
I know for me as a 40 year old woman, you know, I'm expected to have had kids and a husband and, you know, kind of the certain expectations.
00:17:49
Speaker
And, you know, maybe that is.
00:17:51
Speaker
It's judgmental.
00:17:52
Speaker
Exactly.
00:17:53
Speaker
it's people putting their own judgment and their own idea of what perfect life should be I mean I'm the happiest I ever am and I also know some people with kids like that's why but you know it's putting these judgments on people like oh you're this so you should be that you're whatever so you should be this you're from this country so you should be that you know it's just really just letting people grieve in their own way as well and that's to it you know I have a bit of an issue actually and I think
00:18:22
Speaker
This petition and the last couple of years, it's starting to really highlight it.
00:18:27
Speaker
I mean, my teaching I do as well.
00:18:28
Speaker
There's all these breathing models and cycles of grief.
00:18:33
Speaker
I find them very irritating.
00:18:36
Speaker
I think we need to just start again almost.
00:18:40
Speaker
Death is unique.
00:18:41
Speaker
It is.
00:18:42
Speaker
Emotions are unique.
00:18:43
Speaker
So I think that's half the problem.
00:18:45
Speaker
We have these diagrams.
00:18:47
Speaker
This is how we should be feeling.
00:18:48
Speaker
This is where you could be at.
00:18:49
Speaker
Well, actually, no.
00:18:52
Speaker
Obviously you need something, you need some foundations down to try and help people but it's about communication and people knowing actually today you had a little laugh, that's also fine, that's okay, don't punish yourself for that.
00:19:05
Speaker
So you just need to almost I think start again with all this stuff really.
00:19:10
Speaker
It's and it's you know what it's you've actually touched on something that I often talk about in terms of even what I do.
00:19:16
Speaker
Because a lot of people when I started what I do people thought oh she's just throwing a party and she you know she's making light of a situation and dancing on people's graves and that sort of thing and I'm like that's absolutely not what I'm trying to
Importance of Personalizing Funeral Rituals
00:19:29
Speaker
do at all.
00:19:30
Speaker
And I do think as a society, we do sort of need a blueprint.
00:19:34
Speaker
And I think that's why these grief models and I think that's why they all sort of work for us because we're like, oh, I'm in denial now.
00:19:41
Speaker
OK, there's a comfort to that.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I actually firmly believe in the ritual of a funeral.
00:19:49
Speaker
What I just believe is that we're all completely unique and different and not everyone wants to go to a Catholic church or go to a funeral.
00:19:55
Speaker
Some people want to have it by the beach.
00:19:57
Speaker
Some people want to have it in a hotel room.
00:19:59
Speaker
Some people, everyone, we're all just completely different.
00:20:00
Speaker
That's what I believe.
00:20:01
Speaker
It's not that I'm trying to get rid of the funeral.
00:20:04
Speaker
I actually think the funeral is a super important part of your grief process.
00:20:08
Speaker
And I think exactly that.
00:20:09
Speaker
It gives people a blueprint of, okay, this is what they're having.
00:20:13
Speaker
They're having a service for Sarah, we'll say.
00:20:15
Speaker
They're having a service for Sarah.
00:20:17
Speaker
Okay, I can show up and this is how I show my support.
00:20:20
Speaker
We as a society do sort of need parameters to guide us, I think.
00:20:26
Speaker
Guidance.
00:20:27
Speaker
We need guidance.
00:20:27
Speaker
But it's not boxing us in.
00:20:29
Speaker
It's not, shouldn't be boxed in.
00:20:31
Speaker
And that's, again, what we do here and what I pride myself on is about how we empower people.
00:20:38
Speaker
and it's on the BBC.
00:20:39
Speaker
That sounds great.
00:20:40
Speaker
It's actually how you action that.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
And actually, it's hard to me.
00:20:44
Speaker
The funeral service is that platform to say goodbye to someone.
00:20:49
Speaker
But actually, there's lots of things we can do along the way as well, which form part of that process of letting go and allowing people to move forward in the most positive way.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:57
Speaker
Things like...
00:20:59
Speaker
allowing families and telling families it's okay if they wanted to be the ones to close the coffin.
00:21:05
Speaker
We'd be there to guide them again.
00:21:08
Speaker
The Leith family that are on the BBC with me, we have a little sky machine here which takes fingerprints of the deceased.
00:21:16
Speaker
I said, do you want to help me do that?
00:21:18
Speaker
I mean, that'd be great.
00:21:18
Speaker
And we actually then ended up taking all their fingerprints and all those fingerprints now are on the headstone of all the family.
00:21:25
Speaker
But they were part of that process.
00:21:27
Speaker
You know, we were in there and they were giggling and it was just so special.
00:21:32
Speaker
And that's how it can be.
00:21:34
Speaker
A mother who lost her son to suicide,
00:21:38
Speaker
She came in here desperate, fear factor, totally out of her depth, had no control.
00:21:47
Speaker
And it was about giving her control and telling her that her son is still hers and now offering her things to make her know that her son is hers.
00:21:56
Speaker
So she came to our mortuary.
00:21:58
Speaker
We changed the environment in the mortuary.
00:22:00
Speaker
I showed her a mortuary first as a mortuary.
00:22:03
Speaker
the sounds of the refrigeration units on.
00:22:06
Speaker
Took them back down to the reception, had a cup of tea, and then during that time, myself and my colleague Darren, we put the candles on, turned off the sound of the refrigeration, put on their favorite soundtrack, it was Queen, played just quietly in the background, take away the silence.
00:22:21
Speaker
And she came back up and she was really unsure, really, really fearful about how to, what to expect.
00:22:28
Speaker
And her son's taken his own life.
00:22:29
Speaker
So just the actual overwhelming feeling of that.
00:22:32
Speaker
But then going up there and she was part of it all by putting his socks on was so special and,
00:22:39
Speaker
And it was just so, so beautiful.
00:22:42
Speaker
And that actually is as important as the female service as well.
00:22:46
Speaker
But again, it's about the industry listening to their clients to ensure that the family have everything they need.
00:22:52
Speaker
And that can be really, really simple or really, really detailed and personal.
00:22:57
Speaker
The key thing is, I'm always thinking, where will we be tomorrow and where will we be in five years' time?
00:23:01
Speaker
And that's what our responsibility is, is to ensure that they have everything they need to ensure they move forward in the right way.
00:23:09
Speaker
And that's so refreshing to hear because it's not many that say that because it's one thing I'm always pushing or saying, pushing by saying is that it's about meeting families where they're at.
00:23:22
Speaker
It's not about where you want your casket sales to be our coffin sales or, you know, it's not what you think it should happen.
00:23:30
Speaker
But casket sales, you know,
00:23:33
Speaker
I'm aware, I'm aware that's, you know, culture in a culture of the UK, it's different to America.
00:23:39
Speaker
I'm aware of that.
00:23:40
Speaker
But my view is if you make it exactly what they want, and like for a cremation for us, I'll suggest, you know, a basic coffin.
00:23:49
Speaker
because I think all that's required.
00:23:51
Speaker
But surely if you're looking after the family to the highest of standards, over time, you're going to serve more people due to the standards you offer and that actually it's genuine care and it's just about there.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, well, it should be.
00:24:06
Speaker
It absolutely should be like that, John.
00:24:08
Speaker
But there is, you know, I know some of my families themselves have called me and are horrified by certain car salesman attitudes that they kind of get.
00:24:18
Speaker
And, you know, look, that's the unfortunate part is there are those, like every industry, there's the good and the bad, you know.
00:24:26
Speaker
And so, unfortunately, sometimes the bad stories get out there, you know, like,
00:24:32
Speaker
during COVID here, the bodies were sort of racking up and, you know, and then there was the famous case of the woman who was, or the two women who were selling body parts just there recently.
00:24:40
Speaker
I mean, those are the ones that make the news, unfortunately.
00:24:44
Speaker
And then they're the ones that change the rest of the industry.
00:24:47
Speaker
Whereas,
00:24:47
Speaker
Like the things that like what you're doing with trying to get this bereavement care into curriculum in the UK don't make the news as much.
00:24:55
Speaker
And that can be very frustrating, I find.
00:24:57
Speaker
For me now, as we move forward, what I'd really like to do is highlight
Valuing the Funeral Industry
00:25:03
Speaker
the special work, the sector in the US, the UK, all over Europe, what we do, it's, I think we undervalue ourselves in this industry.
00:25:12
Speaker
We undervalue the level we work at.
00:25:16
Speaker
You know, people in their darkest time come to us and we have to be reactive because they're walking through the doors in their darkest time and we have to look after them and help them.
00:25:26
Speaker
And the vast majority of funeral homes in the United Kingdom that I know are doing amazing work.
00:25:32
Speaker
it's all off the radar um i said before the key workers are clapping on the doorsteps the key workers nhs staff you know i was there clapping as well rightly so but actually it appears that the funeral industry is not part of that category and we really we really should be we really should be and i believe that actually once we get into that category coffin sales doesn't become the priority because we know our worth and we know what we're doing it for
00:26:00
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:26:01
Speaker
I think it will come back round where, again, we just remember how special the role is.
00:26:08
Speaker
Well, that's it.
00:26:09
Speaker
And I think it absolutely will come back round.
00:26:11
Speaker
And I think it has to come back round, John, because there's so many other innovators now who have had poor experiences, who have then innovated within the industry or whatever it might be.
00:26:21
Speaker
So the direct cremations, you know, and all of these other players that are coming into the field.
00:26:26
Speaker
Like I've said, my good friend, Larry, we had, I think, a whole podcast about it where, you know, it nearly shouldn't be about putting money on each item.
00:26:37
Speaker
It should be about a consultancy fee, valuing your job.
00:26:41
Speaker
The job of a funeral director is incredible.
00:26:44
Speaker
And it is exactly like a nurse and a doctor.
00:26:46
Speaker
You're with people when they need it the most.
00:26:49
Speaker
So stop devaluing yourself and value the service you're giving.
00:26:53
Speaker
And I think if you're nearly looking at it like commodity, like, oh, money on this, money on that, then you're completely devaluing and devaluing.
00:27:01
Speaker
you're yeah it's just not gonna work but so I do think it will evolve to that for sure and it needs a soul though to sort of speak out and actually remind people how special the role is oh and I know really in our society is the word we do but again though like with the treatment awareness stuff it's all under the radar we don't discuss that well actually it's time we should discuss it because actually the results will be a lot more positive
00:27:27
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree.
00:27:28
Speaker
100%.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:27:30
Speaker
Well, listen, amazing to talk to you, as always.
00:27:34
Speaker
And thank you so much for sharing.
00:27:36
Speaker
Tell us the petition.
00:27:37
Speaker
I know, obviously, I'm based in New York and then from Ireland.
00:27:39
Speaker
Can Irish people vote or is it just UK?
00:27:43
Speaker
So it's UK.
00:27:44
Speaker
It's UK.
00:27:45
Speaker
Well, we'll share the link anyway and sure we'll see you.
00:27:48
Speaker
That'd be fantastic.
00:27:49
Speaker
It's on the NEFD website.
00:27:51
Speaker
You'll see it all over social media now.
00:27:54
Speaker
And if you just Google add content on deaf dying and reading the national curriculum, it should pop up.
00:28:01
Speaker
Perfect.
00:28:02
Speaker
It'd be fantastic if you can support it.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:05
Speaker
Listeners are going to get behind it.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:28:08
Speaker
Well, we wish you the absolute best of luck with it.
00:28:11
Speaker
You've only got another two and a half thousand.
00:28:13
Speaker
That's nothing.
00:28:14
Speaker
You should be absolutely right.
00:28:15
Speaker
I'm pleased.
00:28:16
Speaker
It's been an interesting time.
00:28:19
Speaker
It's been about the psychology of how people actually engage with it as well.
00:28:23
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:28:24
Speaker
I'm really grateful for everyone getting behind it.
00:28:26
Speaker
Good, good.
00:28:26
Speaker
There's always going to be naysayers out there, but you just have to keep plowing on through.
00:28:30
Speaker
I like those.
00:28:31
Speaker
I want to meet more of those.
00:28:33
Speaker
Love a challenge.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah, I do.
00:28:36
Speaker
All right.
00:28:36
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, John.
00:28:38
Speaker
And sure, we'll watch this space and maybe we'll get you back on when it's been approved and see what your next steps are.
00:28:43
Speaker
Thanks, Jennifer.
00:28:45
Speaker
Thanks, John.
00:28:46
Speaker
Thanks so much.
00:28:57
Speaker
So what did you think of today's episode?
00:29:00
Speaker
Hopefully it didn't affect too many of you too harshly.
00:29:06
Speaker
Definitely if you're in the UK, check out the petition, see if you're interested in signing it or not.
00:29:11
Speaker
And we'd love to hear from you on this and any other topics that we talk on the Glamour Reaper podcast.
00:29:16
Speaker
Shoot us an email, glamourreperpodcast at gmail.com and we'll talk to you soon.