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Your Have Four Minds – a conversation with John Couper
36 Plays3 months ago
Join host Michael Millward as John Couper explains his “Four Minds” concept of inner communication.
More than simply talking to yourself, understanding our four minds and how they influence our behaviour and interactions with other people can result in a happier life.
John explains to Michael how the Four Minds model provides both personal insights and an intuitive, practical path to self–transformation.
We are grateful for John sharing these complimentary resources.
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Find out more about both Michael Millward and John Couper at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
John Couper is an academic and researcher with a focus on human communication. His research projects have taken John all over the world.
If you would like to travel the worlds the best place to make your travel arrangements is The Ultimate Travel Club, which is where you can access trade prices for flights, hotels and holidays. Use my offer code ABEC79 to receive a discount on your membership fee.
Matchmaker.fm
Thank you to the team at Matchmaker.fm the introduction to John.
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster.
Introduction to 'Independent Minds'
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasid and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone. I'm your host Michael Middleward, the Managing Director of Abecedah.
Zencastr and Listener Offer
00:00:28
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the Independent Minds is made on Zencaster. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Amazon and YouTube Music.
00:00:51
Speaker
It really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster dot.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description. Now that I have told you how wonderful Sancaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Guest Introduction: John Cooper
00:01:22
Speaker
Today, I am joined by John Cooper, who is an expert in the psychology of effective communication and how to harness it. Hello, John. Hello. Nice to be here with you. Thank you.
00:01:38
Speaker
Well, thank you very much. I know you're a busy man. It's great that you found the time in your busy schedule to to join us. I'm looking forward to our discussion. One of the reasons why I'm looking forward to our conversation is that you have been described as someone who prefers to be practical, someone who likes to move beyond concepts to actionable improvements. Please, could we start by you telling us a little bit about what that means? Yes. Well, although, I mean, i'm an I've been an academic and a researcher, but But in the end, I really feel as though I feel as though it's what we do that matters most. And actions are a way that we understand our concepts. And so I really like for people to be encouraged, you know, to be given new tools ah to function in the world and to improve their lives, really, because for me, that's the ultimate goal of what I'm after.
00:02:36
Speaker
So it's almost a ah learning by doing type of approach or learning through experiences. This came partly because my university experience began with a program that took me around the world. So instead of studying from books, we actually studied from life experiences in Africa, Asia, Europe, South America. And so this is where I guess the origin of my idea of putting concepts into action. What did you study at university then? Well, the technical, what it was described as was international studies because in fact, I was able to pursue any kind of project. ah For example, it's I began in Kenya and I stayed with a cooperative. um And so then I worked in different things. Whatever came up, it was interesting. So I learned a lot in each one and that I applied. I also ran a business in Amsterdam.
00:03:34
Speaker
So, you know, it was a mixture of whatever I wanted to do. Right. Sounds extremely interesting.
The Four Functional Minds
00:03:41
Speaker
And doing this educational journey, literally as well as theoretically, you developed a model of, or you identified four different minds that people have around how they manage their lives. Please could you tell us a little bit about that? Of course, yeah. Well, in fact, that concept, It was sort of working intuitively through me for many, many years. um And it was only when I became a researcher after I had got a PhD that I really began to investigate how our minds work. Because there's actually only one form of communication that's completely unstudied and untheorized. And that's um the interpersonal or inner communication that we all have inside our heads. And believe it or not, no one has studied this well.
00:04:34
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It's not easy to study. But I studied that to try to understand how we how we talk to ourselves first. And that led me to the insight that we actually have four distinct functional minds. I'm not talking about you know different parts of the brain or something. But these are functional minds that reflect the full range of human experiences. So that's what I mean when I describe that. Right. So before you go on for a moment, The mind is something that isn't physical, is it? It's ah it's a construct in many ways. It's a something that is not like the brain. The brain is different to the mind. The brain is something very physical. It's the mechanical part of what makes this happen. But the mind is ah the the software in many ways. To some extent. but um the
00:05:28
Speaker
recently, researchers have shown that what we call the mind and mental processes do not only happen in our brains. For example, there's what they call the gut mind, which is actually more physically more active than the neocortex. And so, in a sense, our entire body is a mind in terms of communication and correction and action and decision. So that, yeah, I am interested in the non-corporeal aspect of it, but even on a physical sense, the mind goes far beyond our brains.
00:06:08
Speaker
For me, it's very interesting. And this idea that the words, the the conversations that we have with ourselves, not talking to ourselves as such, but the conversations that we have with ourselves inside our own minds are extremely powerful. determining what we do, why we do it, how we do it, and also our interpretation of the signals and signposts and messages that we get from the outside world determine how we talk to ourselves as well, which all then drives into these the four minds. What are the four minds? I'm distracting people from our discussion of the four minds.
00:06:49
Speaker
Well, um of course, we've all been taught this idea that we have a conscious mind and a subconscious. And the subconscious is mysterious and relatively uncontrollable. And, you know, it's like emotional and instinctive and this kind of thing. What I've learned is that in fact, all of these minds, even though they're not verbal, like the like our, ah you know, neocortex is, They are still very active and and um directly influence everything that we say and do and decide and feel and so on. And so within that context, I would say that one mind is the mind that I call the idealistic mind. This is the one of a vision, of hope,
00:07:38
Speaker
of spirituality and so on. And of course, this is not addressed at all with a normal psychological idea of the mind. And then we have the analytical mind. That's the one that we use that's verbal and logical. And it's one that we use to analyze, to pull apart information about the world and put it back together and so on. And then there's what I call the Guardian Mind. This is the one that is relates to our memories, our creativity, and it's actually quite conservative. This is what protects us from going too far, but it also helps us to direct our efforts in a lot of ways. And then, speaking of efforts, the what I call Natural Mind. This is the mind of nature. It's the mind of um competition, of survival, of increasing ourselves, of connecting with the and the people that we identify with and so on. So I think that it's pretty clear that this is a much closer representation of how we think and how we feel and live than the idea of the conscious mind and the subconscious. As you're describing them, I can almost like see the different parts of
00:09:02
Speaker
my mind, yeah i if you if you haven't explained it in this context in in this way, I would not know that these four minds existed. But when you describe them in those ways, I can see how um my inner almost subconscious thought processes are influenced by in four different areas. so I do have an ideological mind. I do have an analytical mind. I do have this guardian mind of like, the memories and and like, but I did that, it hurt, I'm not going to do it again. I am wary of other some things based upon the experiences that I've had in the past. I can see where someone might go, well, I've been hurt by that type of person before, I'm not going to deal with that type of person again, or I don't want to had a bad experience in that type of environment. I'm not going to go back and you sometimes don't see them as decisions that you're consciously making. right But
00:10:09
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somehow you don't seem to be in that environment again. And and what you're saying is like that guardian mind is is making those decisions for us. And it's doing it independently. And it's really all of these minds are on our side. The idea that there's a subconscious that can sabotage us or it can ah distract us or something is really, I don't think it's really effective. I think that instead all of the minds in their own way work for us in different ways. And the benefit of knowing this is that when, for example, you're communicating with people, ah you can identify what's going on in them. For example, if you're in a meeting, you can actually be listening to the other people in the meeting making points or suggestions or responding even non-verbally. And you can understand the dynamic of that meeting much, much more clearly than if you're just listening to the words and the facts.
00:11:06
Speaker
or people will display behaviours, body language, which indicates which part or which of these four minds is controlling or influencing their thought processes as you are making your presentation.
Practical Application of the Four Minds
00:11:22
Speaker
Right, yeah. So you can really read people much, much more clearly if you understand them in terms of ah this this group. Yeah. So what would be the indication just as an example of someone who was listening to a a presentation about an idea in which
00:11:42
Speaker
could impact a ah business organization. ah What would be the the the signs that they were using the analytical? Well, for example, if if the if one person is saying, yes, we need to expand into a completely new set of customers. And then you notice that one of the other people in the meeting frowns you know or looks away. And with the body language indicates, without saying anything, that they really disagree with that. You automatically have a much clearer idea of how that person feels about the the idea of expanding into a new customer set.
00:12:25
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So, but in even in verbally, you know, the arguments that people will raise for or against something will give you a pretty clear idea of are they thinking in terms of vision? Are they thinking in terms of conservatism? Are they thinking in terms of competitiveness? And once you know that, you're really creating a ah very useful profile of that person. Yes, it's almost as if you have a group of people and understanding which mind they are thinking of or thinking with at any particular point in time. If you understand the signs of that, then you can alter the way in which you communicate with them to get the right results from your perspective. Is this with these four minds? Is this something where people will have
00:13:18
Speaker
all four minds in equal balance all of the time and they pick and choose which one to use at any and any particular situation? Or oh do we have a dominant mind and a submissive mind and they're on a sort of scale? between them, or is how does it work? Yeah, I mean, that's one important point, which is that they naturally balance among themselves. Let's say in the same way that a work team will, you know, at certain points, there'll be a more technical issue and the the technical person and takes charge. Another time, you know, there might be the, you know, the HR person, so to speak. um So in the same way, our minds will, you know, will sort out among themselves which one should be dominant in the situation. Of course, if a truck is coming down at you down the street, you know you don't stop and think about it and wonder how you feel about it. Your natural mind pushes you out of the way.
00:14:17
Speaker
And it's the same thing. I would say that there's probably no situation in which they're in 100 percent balance. But, you know, you can think about, for example, you're sitting down and and just having lunch with a colleague and it will start off in a social way. And that would be the guardian mind of the the social connections. And then you might start to talk about analyzing the situation. And then that part, that particular mind will sort of take over. And then if you talk about how you're going to go in the future and what's the important priorities, then the idealistic mind will take over. So it really ah it changes constantly in ways that we're not really aware of, although I think that once you know the concept, then you will be much more aware of it in yourself and in other people.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yes, I'm thinking that just having you explain it in very straightforward terms as we started, I am more aware of the four minds. And this isn't the first conversation that we've had about it. You've been telling me about it and in quite a lot of detail. So i'm I'm starting to feel a little bit confident of understanding what I am, um how my minds are working um in different types of situations. okay yeah And for me, it's like, okay, I can see how this works within a sales meeting, and a management meeting, or even just amongst ah a group of people who are forming a team. And you ah lots of people I'm sure who are listening will sort of be thinking, oh yeah, I can see how the natural mind, the guardian mind, that's all about
00:15:56
Speaker
your hygiene factors and the analytical and the ideological. That's all ah all about the um the motivating factors and and all this sort of stuff. But this isn't just another version of of those types of team theories. this is This is something completely different, isn't it? This is understanding much more of the individual and how the individual acts rather than and why they act, but rather than just you have to identify these particular characteristics. Well, it begins with the individual, but I think the strength of the concept is when it is combined. So for example, in a work team, you'll have different people with different roles, and they will work together. And the the teams that work very well are the ones who
00:16:43
Speaker
who work to their strengths. And when there's a problem, that they will turn to somebody with a strength that may be not as well developed. And so you know think about groups that you've known in the past. And the ones who work very well are the ones who respect and collaborate with each other. And the ones who work very badly are the ones who you know who are constantly bickering. ah There are all sorts of different sporting situations that we could take into exactly that type of scenario where a team is full of stars, a football team is full of stars and yet fails to print perform as a team because there are too many stars who've got their own individual
00:17:29
Speaker
agenda. but We see it here in the United Kingdom every year when we have the Football Association Cup, the FA Cup. The small teams start and then it goes through the different rounds and eventually you bring in the Premiership teams who are then competing very often against minor league teams, teams made up of amateur players but actually being beaten by those teams from lower down because the team is working, their team, the lower division team is working as a team and the other team haven't
00:18:06
Speaker
given them that respect that they're a team that is capable of performing at a at a high level. If you think of the people who are most successful in the world, ah and you read their biographies, for example, you'll find a very interesting ability that they have to switch between their different abilities. And at some point, this the sheer animal drive comes to the fore. And at other times, the the visionary future comes to the fore. And so I think that even including in football, and I'm a fan, by the way, but even in football, the the players who do the best are the ones that can switch very quickly between figuring out the angle that they can shoot to. And
00:18:57
Speaker
and pushing beyond a blocker, for example. In other words, to use their minds and to switch between them in a natural way. And I think that's actually the secret of greatness.
Redefining Success and Fulfillment
00:19:09
Speaker
Yeah. Be able to adapt your behavior to a particular situation or a particular group of people or a particular scenario. And all of these various different um ideas, the the four minds, all contribute to our ability to understand those scenarios, I think. it's It's almost um one of the other things that I've heard said about you is that you like using the new strengths, the new approaches. It's almost like ah the adventure attitude that many people have now about life. It's not just simply
00:19:42
Speaker
going to work and paying the bills, it's looking for new and exciting things to to be involved in and then blasting the obstacles, seizing the opposite opportunities and making your your job work for you as an individual. So you're at work, yet you have to understand, by understanding yourself, you can understand what it is that you need from work, how you're going to contribute to work in order to make sure that you get what it is that you want from work. But how did the the four minds fit into that, almost like job hunting, and once you've got the job, um making sure that the job works for you, and is as successful for you as you are in delivering for your employer.
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, of course, there's one, you know, many people will go into a job with the idea that it's nothing more than a paycheck. And that doesn't really serve very well or for very long. So I think that the first way that it will serve us is to understand how exactly what we're really after, you know, what is important to us by interrogating our minds, and what we want out of the out of the experience of work. So that we're spending that at number of hours a day living and not just going through the motion so that we get a check at the end of the month. And those are not the people who succeed. The people who succeed are the ones who do like 10% more than what is asked of them. And they the way to do that is to take chances a little bit, but really to ah to venture.
00:21:25
Speaker
And I think that this is a key trait of the people who succeed best in the world. And the more able they are to see there their life and their efforts as an adventure, the more likely they are to to have the resources and the flexibility and the resilience to do well whatever happens. And I think this is especially important now. um in the world with so many changes of so many kinds, especially in the world of work and business, that I think that you have to be an adventurer, that if you if you stick to the predictable and the the normal and what was the case 20 years ago, I think you'll really get left behind.
00:22:12
Speaker
Yes, more than likely I should think. When you mention success, I think it's probably important to point out that yeah the way in which we talk about success in the 21st century is very different to the way in which the way in which the word was used in the late 20th century, where success meant career of progression, high incomes, all those sorts of things. There are people who will strive for those and that is what is right for them. They've made those sorts of decisions. But success
00:22:44
Speaker
for many people nowadays is much more about the lifestyle that they aspire to have and fulfilling that lifestyle without worrying about what other people may think about them. The life success in the context of these four minds, if correct me if I'm wrong, but is about understanding your minds, the four minds, understanding what those mean for you, and how that impacts and influences the lifestyle that you really want to have. And then making sure that the work that you do fulfills or helps you to fulfill those lifestyle aspirations. And that isn't likely to happen unless you have activated these four minds and gone on the adventure to fulfill all the various different things that will make these perform
00:23:38
Speaker
make these poor minds perform at their optimum level? More or less. yeah I mean, obviously, we we all have our limitations. But for example, I have a rule. If I find myself ever saying, thank God it's Friday, on Monday or over the weekend, end I will say either I'm going to change that situation or I'm going to quit because I'm not willing to, you know, to give up a chunk of my life for something that doesn't mean anything to me. But you can one way to fix that situation is to say, well, look, maybe the reason that I'm saying that God is Friday is that the you know the previous five days have not nourished me. And if they have nourished me, great. if Let's improve that. If they haven't nourished me, let's figure out what would. And if there's no way to do that, then let's do something something else.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yes. It is. The most important part of that is probably conversation that you have with yourself in order to work out what is important to you. And then having a similar conversation with the people who either help you or hinder you in achieving those objectives. But life is an adventure and it's there to be lived. You know, it really, right really very interesting. John, I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Yeah, well, it's very nice to be here and have this very interesting chat. and you know I ah consider myself one of the luckiest people you might ever meet because I've had so many opportunities and it's just so stimulating. I'm 75 years old in a few weeks.
00:25:20
Speaker
But I feel as energized and as hopeful and as committed and driven as I've ever felt in probably more so than when I was 30. So that's pretty lucky. Yes. Yes. Long may it last. Long may it last. Thank you very much John.
Closing Thoughts
00:25:38
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to you for listening to The Independent Minds. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abacida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, John Cooper, an expert in the psychology of effective communication. You can find out more about both of us at abacida.co.uk. There is a link in the description below and links to some of the free resources which John is sharing with us.
00:26:10
Speaker
If you have liked this edition of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it. To ins ensure you don't miss out on future editions, please subscribe. And remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Thank you.