Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
115. Using Enneagrams to Understand Ouselves and Others-with Matt Schlegel
92 Plays3 years ago
Best-selling author Matt Schlegel is committed to developing highly effective, style-diverse teams and giving them the tools and strategies to tackle challenges that are seemingly impossible. Principal of Schlegel Consulting (www.evolutionaryteams.com), Matt started his career as an electrical engineering and soon realized that successful project outcomes depend more on leading people than leading electrons. Matt discovered a powerful system called the
Enneagram and used it to develop a novel set of tools, strategies, and applications for team effectiveness that he uses in his consulting practice and shares in his book Teamwork 9.0.
Learn more about Matt Shlegel
https://www.evolutionaryteams.com
Enneagram Quiz: www.EnneaSurvey.com
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest or for coaching:
https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
Recommended
Transcript
Enneagram Types and Stress Responses
00:00:01
Speaker
Each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it's driven by anger. For the heart people, it's driven by feelings and including sadness and grief.
00:00:29
Speaker
And then for the head people, it's anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their Enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.
Introduction to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between Podcast
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast.
00:00:57
Speaker
This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:14
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:37
Speaker
Welcome to today's
Guest Introduction: Matt Schlegel and Teamwork 9.0
00:01:38
Speaker
episode. We have Matt Schlegel on and we will be talking about his book Teamwork 9.0 and talking about Enneagrams and how we can use it to solve problems, including climate change. So that is a big one. That's a big
How Can Enneagrams Improve Team Interactions?
00:01:56
Speaker
one. So welcome, Matt. So great to be with you here, Kendra. Thanks for having me.
00:02:01
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for being here. I'm so glad to have you on. And I was telling your, the assistant that reached out, reached out to tell me about your book regarding Enneagrams. I'm like, Oh yes, I've been looking into that. And I had already had my children do to see which Enneagram, Enneagram. Okay. Let's, let's get that one. Enneagram, Enneagram, Enneagram, Enneagram, Enneagram. Okay. I'll just say it that way. Enneagram. Um,
00:02:28
Speaker
what Enneagram number my kids were just so that I could even know how to relate with them. I had made them do the test. I already had an idea which one they were and I was right on one child. I wasn't right on the other, which was surprising. And then just recently I did it myself. So, uh, but I had done it for my kids, but I had not done.
00:02:50
Speaker
Are you going to tell us? I will tell you which one came up. Number two. I'm a two. Yes. That one came up. What about you? What number are you? I'm a six. You're a six. So tell us. Okay. Let's, let's go. Okay. My gosh. We're jumping already ahead. So what is number six? What is that one?
00:03:09
Speaker
Oh, so sometimes we're called the loyalist. Sometimes we're called like the bureaucrat. Sometimes we're called the questioner. We ask lots of questions. We like systems. We like things to like go, you know, in order, predictably. So that's why we create these systems to try to make things happen in a predictable way.
00:03:32
Speaker
And that's exactly what you did. So tell us your background because you wrote a book, but tell us what your background
Matt Schlegel's Enneagram Journey
00:03:39
Speaker
is and why it is that systems is definitely your niche. Exactly. So yeah, I started out with a technical background in engineering.
00:03:50
Speaker
I became an engineering manager and at some point my manager came to me and said, hey Matt, I want you to be a manager. And I said, I don't know how to manage people. I only know about managing electrons. And he said, don't worry, you'll be fine. But now that you know I'm a six, I'm not fine. And so I started studying everything, studying, studying, studying.
00:04:10
Speaker
And then I came across all of these tools to help teams and people be more effective in working together. And one
Using Enneagrams for Team Effectiveness
00:04:20
Speaker
of those systems I came across was the Enneagram. And so my engineering brain likes to pull these systems apart and put them back together and see what works well and what doesn't. And no matter how much I poked and prodded the Enneagram, it's like, oh, this is amazing.
00:04:39
Speaker
It just keeps going and going and going and it's so powerful and it's so effective at predicting how things will work out, which appeals to a type six, obviously. So that's why I just became fascinated with it. I ended up using it at work with my team, both as a personality system. And then I asked the question, why are the Enneagram types numbers?
00:05:04
Speaker
Why aren't they letters or colors or animals or, you know, what, why numbers? Well, it turns out that the numbers are
00:05:16
Speaker
or there for a reason, and it's exact order in which humans solve problems. So there is a dynamic, a personality dynamic associated with each type, and that dynamic is exactly the dynamic you need in problem solving for that step. So for instance, the type one is sometimes called the perfectionist, and they're the ones that say, hey, it shouldn't be like that. It should be like this.
00:05:43
Speaker
Well, what's the first step in problem solving? Hey, there's a problem. It shouldn't be like that. It should be like this. And on and around. So step two, for instance, you may be relating to the step two. The step two is who cares? Who cares about the problem? If somebody thinks there's a problem and nobody around them cares, then you're probably not going to end up solving the problem.
00:06:09
Speaker
But if the one brings up, hey, there's a problem, and then a bunch of people around them say, yeah, you're right. We care. There is a problem. Then guess what? The problem gets solved. You move to step three, let's come up with some ideas. And step four, oh, let's pick a good idea. And step five, let's analyze ideas. Step six, oh, let's build a plan to get to the goal. Seven, let's get everybody excited.
00:06:36
Speaker
Step eight, let's stop talking and do it. And step nine, how did it work? That's so perfect. So then if, if nine people were to be in a team and each one was one number, then would that make that team be more effective if everybody, if there was a one or two or not, all the way through nine?
00:06:55
Speaker
Right.
What are Work Team Triads?
00:06:56
Speaker
Exactly. You know, if it would be a perfectly balanced team. Now the odds that you would get nine people all one of each type together is almost astronomical that that would happen. So most teams aren't balanced like that, which is why I have a consulting practice.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yes. And I liked, you know, I just went to your, to your link right now, which by the way, I'll make sure to link in the show notes so that people can go because you have a free assessment one and yours was actually easier. I didn't end up filling it. I didn't have time this right before our call to fill it out because I had already done it in another website, but I felt the way you just checked marked on these was easier than these other ones that go into these questions that it's like,
00:07:46
Speaker
from inaccurate to accurate kind of like where are you it's a little more like gray area when you're answering and you're like am I like which so those are a little more ambiguous sometimes and these other websites to answer and I thought yours was really clear and concise because you just check mark which ones apply to you and and then you kind of know in the in the number that you check mark the most
00:08:10
Speaker
Exactly. And just one warning about Enneagram assessments. In my experience, the one that I have right now on my website is a good one. But you have to also acknowledge that you're coming to the test at a certain state in your life.
00:08:36
Speaker
And like, for instance, when I first took the assessment years ago, I tested highest as an eight and six was the next highest. They were about the same, but eight was a little higher. And that's because I was working in a situation surrounded by eights,
00:08:53
Speaker
where eight behavior was expected, and I was behaving like an eight. And I was just feeling the role that was expected of me. So when I checked off those things, I was like, yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. And I wasn't thinking about, is that really the way I would respond if I were just doing it on my own, or am I doing it because that's what's expected me of my culture?
00:09:17
Speaker
And so just be aware that sometimes you may not score the highest on your actual core type.
00:09:27
Speaker
Okay.
Enneagram Reactions to Life Transitions
00:09:28
Speaker
Now with that said, do you notice that the same can occur then in a family, like in which maybe you end up being more of a number because that's what maybe is needed more in that role as a parent or something that you end up kind of becoming more of a certain number in that dynamic as well?
00:09:50
Speaker
I think that's more true for adults than for children. If it's children taking the test, they're less in control and they've been less culturized into behaving in certain ways in certain situations. And so they tend to answer the questions more honestly
00:10:17
Speaker
And so, you know, so I'd say that's more of a situation for an adult, you know, like, you know, say, you know, a mother who, you know, you know, like, being a mother, there's a lot of tooness in being a mother. And so, you know, if you're a mother and you're taking care of kids,
00:10:37
Speaker
You're like, yeah, I do that. Yeah. I do. Yeah. I'm a two. I'm a two. You're behaving like a two, whether you're a two or not. That's so true. That's so true. Okay. So now let's talk a little bit about your life. So where do you live? And I, and we want to kind of, again, we already found out how it is. You came about developing the system, but I wanted to learn more about, about you. So where do you live and a little bit about your family?
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah. So I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I'm married for 31 years. I have three kids. The, the oldest is 28 living up in Seattle.
00:11:21
Speaker
next is down in San Diego and both are young women who are you know successfully out on their own and I'm very proud of them and then I have a son who is still with us here in the home he's in college he's taking classes and he's studying likely to be an engineer so
00:11:43
Speaker
like dad, following in his dad's footsteps a little bit. And I'm very proud of him and the progress he's making too. So yeah, it's great. Now, how did this Enneagram, did that end up, did you end up making everybody test when you found this out? Like how long ago did you find out about Enneagrams? And did you end up then having everyone in your family then take the test? You know, I've been working with Enneagram for over 20 years now.
00:12:11
Speaker
And we actually learned it through my wife's church. So the pastor at the wife's church, my wife's church is really into the Enneagram. And in fact, he now has a foundation that focuses on different
00:12:34
Speaker
elements of spirituality that aren't necessarily religious. And one of those is the Enneagram. And so he actually has invited me to become the director of Enneagram studies for his foundation. So, you know, he's like my longtime mentor on the Enneagram. And I'm still we do monthly Enneagram workshops together. So that's a long way of saying I actually came into it after most of my family already knew it.
00:13:03
Speaker
And when I'm taking the test and then I'm testing eight,
00:13:08
Speaker
You know, and they're like, looking at me, you're not an eight. You're like, oh, okay. And you're like, okay. So if you go with the flow, then wait, are eights more rigid? Oh, no, no. I mean, these are probably less rigid. They're the ones who like to be in control. So they're the gloss or the assertor, you know, that's that style, right?
00:13:36
Speaker
Okay, but now when you said no, okay, I'm gonna say, Oh, okay. That's why I said, Oh, okay. Maybe you weren't an eight. If you're like, okay, yeah, I'll go with the six because maybe if you were named, you would have been like, no, no, I'm an eight. I know. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, when they said you're, you're not, it makes me think, which is exactly what a six does. Right. You're like, Oh, wait, no, I, yeah.
00:13:59
Speaker
You're right. I'm not. So, okay. So then you, you did that then in your personal life. And then how is it that then you started then to implement. So when you were given this role at work to be a project manager, you're like, how am I going to manage people? You come up with a system, this tool. How did you start implementing it then with your, with your team?
00:14:21
Speaker
Right. Well, first of all, you know, like most people, you know, you come in to the Enneagram through that personality aspect of it. So the, you know, that problem solving, you know, process, you know, the one through nine came later. So I just started using it with my team and introduced them to it, you know, got them to understand each other's styles and types. And, you know, and it was really very effective at
00:14:49
Speaker
helping everybody understand each other's perspective. And, you know, most importantly, it gives you a vocabulary. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about these different dynamics that are going on, right? When, you know, some conflict arises,
00:15:09
Speaker
And you have the vocabulary of the enneagram and you could say, well, you're one and you're a seven, right? And, you know, you know, the ones have this objective, the sevens have this objective. And, you know, you're all trying to get to the same.
00:15:24
Speaker
end point but you have these different perspectives and that's where this conflict is arising and you know so let's talk about that and and it's it's really um it you know that's one of the things i'm most grateful about for the system is is that vocabulary and then allowing people to just you know open up that possibility that oh well yeah my perspective isn't the only perspective and
00:15:53
Speaker
now that I understand there are one and I understand what's important to them, I can totally see why they're doing that. And well, this is the common ground. So let's do that. Boom, done.
00:16:05
Speaker
Then it helps. Now, how open are people in general to take the test when you realize, like when you're managing a team, are people really excited to find out what they are? Are people reluctant? Or do people see how beneficial this could be in that team or work environment? You know what I mean? Like, have you had all kinds of people like be like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to know. You know, and it depends on the type.
00:16:34
Speaker
You know, like some types, you know, like you said earlier, eight. Oh yeah, I'm an eight. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. I mean, eight, eight, like one, you know, they don't mind being an eight, you know, and they like resonate with that eightness and, you know, and it's done. Um, you know, the, and, and certain type ones are also, they, they're pretty easily self-identify. Um,
00:17:02
Speaker
But then some of the other types have more trouble, like take the nine. The nine is the master at understanding everybody's perspective. That's what they do. They're always thinking of others. They're always putting themselves into other people's shoes. And so it's really hard for them to say, well, then who am I?
00:17:25
Speaker
And so when you're talking to a nine, it's like, well, maybe that is, you know, one of the, you know, aspects of being a nine is that you can do this.
00:17:36
Speaker
Oh, OK. Right. So so each each type, you know, another one is fours. They're able to put themselves in everybody's emotional shoes. And so sometimes they have a little more trouble. And, you know, fives, you know, they tend to be able to, you know, masterfully take on different roles and personas in the environment. So they feel like they can be anybody.
00:18:06
Speaker
You know, so they're like, and to the point where like, okay, so which one, one am I right? And, and, and the one that they are is the one that's able to put themselves in everybody's persona. So yeah, so then it helps now.
00:18:22
Speaker
In the work environment, when you've done this, which numbers, do you see that there's numbers that work better together in general personality wise? What would you say is that? Is there a particular formula for that? Right. And I actually write about this in a chapter in my book called Work Team Triads.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I first noticed it just anecdotally, just seeing, if you just throw people together, right? And they kind of organically start to work together. And then I would see which types are just like naturally working together.
00:19:03
Speaker
And I found out that there are these three distinct groups that just naturally work together with almost no conflict at all. It's just like, wow. And I call them work team triads, and I gave them names.
00:19:26
Speaker
there is another author who called them the Harmony Triads. And so they're the one, the four, and the seven, the two, the five, and the eight, and the three, six, and nine. And so those
00:19:48
Speaker
groups of three tend to like each other and work well together. And so that's a really interesting facet that I've found of this. And each one of those teams brings a certain distinct dynamic, right? So if you have the one in the seven and the four together, they want to do new, innovative, fun stuff.
00:20:16
Speaker
So that's like your team for exploring new possibilities. And then the two, five, and the eight, what they want to do is like, we want to get stuff done. So then those are the type of people who tend to migrate to more operations types of roles in companies, where they're just cranking out product, or they're running the place.
00:20:44
Speaker
And then the three six nine that's the group that kind of wants to like look at everything and build a like a smooth operating structure for everything.
00:20:59
Speaker
Right. And so they tend to, you know, put in place like the organizations and the systems that just kind of make it all work together. And so those are kind of the three and you'll see like companies go through that same phase too. Right. Well, that's what I was just going to say. Yeah. Cause you create, you need the creatives to come up with the idea.
00:21:19
Speaker
of what is going to be to then hand off to the two, the fives and the eight to then implement it. Then hand to the team. That's the three, six, nine to then be able to create the whole picture. So I call them the startup triad, the industrious triad and the systematizing triad.
00:21:39
Speaker
That is so cool. Now in those, okay. So those are tryouts. Now, what are their numbers? Let's say that would work. I know you mainly do it for a work environments, but would there be the numbers that work together as teams in, in relationship wise too? Right. Like which ones would be like numbers that worked well, just as binary, like.
00:22:01
Speaker
Right, right. So the, so any combination of those harmony triads, so like oftentimes you'll see, you know, eights and twos, you know, pair up. You'll see, you know, eight twos and fives, any combination of those will pair up. One fours and sevens, what you see that all the time, ones and sevens marry each other all the time.
00:22:26
Speaker
The other one is three six nines, you know, I see couples from that triad together all the time. And then there's one other pattern that I've seen, and this is a really interesting aspect of the Enneagram is that for any type
00:22:43
Speaker
the hardest dynamic, you know, so like I'm a six and I'm, you know, I'm kind of in my sixth dynamic and I have more or less access to the other dynamics, the other, you know, eight dynamics. But generally the hardest dynamic for any type to access is one type higher. Like for me, it's the seven.
00:23:11
Speaker
Right. And, and, and, and that is true almost all the time, all the way around. So here's what I see happen is that when women, because, you know, women make the choice usually in the relationship, right? So, you know, so when women are looking for, you know, somebody to partner with, they see in, you know, they're that person who is one
00:23:41
Speaker
type one number higher someone who's very complimentary to them. So I see this all the time and and you know it does get a little bit gender you know related in this case but that that's just the pattern I've observed is that the the the woman will often choose a man who is one number higher and and and so that's another pattern I see.
00:24:11
Speaker
That is interesting. Now I'm curious now because you've interviewed a lot of people to be able to see all these patterns. You've been able to observe a lot of different people. Because with this podcast being a lot regarding grief, have you noticed in situations that are hard,
00:24:31
Speaker
How each number deals with transitions differently, like a change in life? Could you talk a little bit about that? And how would that apply in situations like that in their life? Yes, great question. And Enneagram
00:24:53
Speaker
You know, there's really can speak to this very well because there's another set of triads in the Enneagram. And these are called the centers. These are the main triads of the Enneagram. It's the 891, the 234, and the 567.
00:25:16
Speaker
And the best way I found to explain this is if you've seen the movie The Wizard of Oz, and there's Dorothy, and she meets these three characters on her journey. She meets the lion who wants courage, meets the tin man who wants a heart, and meets the scarecrow who wants a head. And those are exactly the same, you know,
00:25:44
Speaker
elements that are associated with these main triads. The 891 are the gut people. The 234 are the heart people. And the 567 are the head people. And then each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And it's so for that the gut people, it's driven by anger.
00:26:15
Speaker
For the heart people, it's driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people, it's anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their Enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.
00:26:44
Speaker
Some people will go straight to grief. Some people will go to anger, and some people will go to anxiety and have panic attacks. Right.
00:26:56
Speaker
And, you know, so for instance, when, when I saw the title of your podcast, I knew immediately that you were in the two, three, four group. Cause you start off with grief and gratitude and which is exactly, you know, the grief is the two, three, four, and the gratitude is the two. So if you had asked me just from your, the podcast title, I could have guessed two.
00:27:20
Speaker
That is so interesting. It's interesting how much you can know about someone just by these choices. And then with knowing this then too, then in assimilating when other people are going through something hard, by knowing your Enneagram, then you can know, and by knowing other people in your families, Enneagram,
00:27:41
Speaker
you can know where they're at in that moment of their transition and why it is that maybe they're leading more towards the anxiety component in that transition, rather than with the grief and the sadness, or like the other person may be leading with anger. And it helps you understand and be more empathetic towards the way that each of us is different, you know, dealing with it differently. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And, and no,
00:28:11
Speaker
There is no response is wrong, right? Right. There is no wrong response.
00:28:19
Speaker
We're humans, you know, and this is the one thing I love about the Enneagram is because it just, you know, you know, like once I understood I'm a six and, you know, being a six guy in America is kind of a tough thing. It's not the normal accepted behavior for a guy. The kind of the prototypical guy model is the eight.
00:28:43
Speaker
And so as a six, you know, I'm having to kind of step out of my comfort zone and be more like what's expected of me in my culture. And, and then, you know, if you're not aware that you're doing that intentionally and you're just like, Oh, what's wrong with me? Why, why can't I just do what comes to them naturally? You know, you, you kind of, it can be a little self-defeating, right? But once you like understand your Enneagram type, and then you understand what
00:29:13
Speaker
you know, what is your gift? What is your superpower in problem solving? Because we all have a superpower in problem solving. We all have this superpower that we can contribute to helping everybody else out. And then once you know that, it's like, oh, I feel the way I am because that's exactly the right thing for me to feel. And I just need to now know how to channel that
00:29:43
Speaker
into a healthy contribution to the group and not let it control me, I'm just using it to inform me that I can now inform the group better about what is going on.
00:29:59
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. And I think that that is so important because sometimes we're so hard on ourselves and how it is we react to situations. We're our biggest judge, right? And so by being understanding it and having grace with ourselves and the way that we deal with certain situations and the way that we react based on our personality, it gives us also that capacity of having grace with others if we have grace with ourselves as well. Yes.
00:30:29
Speaker
Right. And then once you have that acceptance of yourself and you know, oh, it's OK for me to feel anxious. I'm supposed to feel anxious. It's not a problem. And then it's like, oh, it's OK for them to be angry. That's exactly what they're supposed to be doing. It's OK for them to be sad. That's exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
00:30:51
Speaker
It's all okay. And then we can just like, what is that telling us? Why are they sad? What about what we're doing is causing them to be sad and what can we do to help them overcome that?
00:31:07
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yes. No, that is awesome. Now you mentioned how in this before we started recording how then these enneagrams can also help us with climate change.
Enneagrams and Climate Change: A Collective Approach
00:31:20
Speaker
Like, yes. OK, let's go into that. Like, how is it that understanding this can then lead us to solve these bigger world problems? Right. Right. Yeah. So, you know, you can look at the the challenge of climate change
00:31:37
Speaker
as a problem, right? It's a problem, right? And so, you know, step one in that problem solving process is, you know, identifying that, oh, there's a problem. And so then, you know, you once you say, okay, there's a problem, then you go to step two, which is, do you care?
00:32:02
Speaker
And I would say right now, you know, collectively and you know I live in America so I'll just, I'll just, you know, speak for America, you know, in my impression is not enough people yet care. Right.
00:32:17
Speaker
Once enough people care, then action starts to happen. And so I think we're in this process now of moving from realization of the problem and then moving into caring about the problem. But there's a big challenge with caring about climate change, which is different from
00:32:46
Speaker
other challenges in a big way. And that is that once you acknowledge that, oh, there's a climate crisis and it's caused by burning fossil fuels. That's the root cause of this is burning fossil fuels. Then you're like. If if I acknowledge that problem, does that mean I have to stop burning fossil fuels?
00:33:16
Speaker
Does that mean I have to start thinking about how I'm using fossil fuels? You know, when I'm showering, you know, is that a gas heater out there heating up that water?
00:33:29
Speaker
you know, when I get in my car, am I burning fossil fuels to get to work? You know, I get on an airplane, am I burning, you know, fossil fuel kerosene as I'm flying across the country? As I'm using this classic cup, am I, did fossil fuel go into creating this? You know, like so many things. Exactly. And, and
00:33:49
Speaker
And so, you know, once you get to that point, you know, what is the first, you know, in that process, right? I look at it as a grieving process. What's the first step in grieving? Denial. Realization. Well, oh, denial. Yeah. If we go by the steps, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's a lot easier for us to just deny the problem.
00:34:17
Speaker
and deny there's a problem and blithely go along on our lives and just ignore the problem. Because if we do, if we accept it, do we have to make a, we have to take action, which is way more work. And, and, but it's more than that. It's actually going through the grieving process because, you know, and you see it, right? Some people will get sad.
00:34:43
Speaker
So we have climate grief now, that's a term. We have climate anxiety or eco-anxiety, that's a term. So you can see and then you get people who go to anger. Just like we had, I think the mass shooting we had in Buffalo is a manifestation of somebody who's reacting to climate with anger.
00:35:09
Speaker
And so we're going to see these reactions to the climate crisis. Anger, we're going to see grief, and we're going to see anxiety. And we're going to be just seeing more and more of it because the climate crisis isn't going away.
00:35:25
Speaker
And, you know, we're all going to be impacted by it soon. And so, you know, I know this is kind of heavy stuff, but, you know, the Enneagram does give us a model for how humanity will respond in our various ways. And then as, you know, and the hopeful thing is as more and more of us actually overcome our denial, you know,
00:35:51
Speaker
then and our impact and start to work through that grieving process, that's going to get us to action. That is the thing that will get us to action.
00:36:02
Speaker
And now in that action, then I was having this conversation right before in the other interview I was having. And it's about like, sometimes we think these big things right are happening. War. OK, what do I do about that? Like, right. Can I go and stop the actual? No. So right. There's other smaller things we can do in our day to day to have a ripple effect.
00:36:27
Speaker
in the big scheme. So in that action then that we can each take then for climate change and the impact each of us are making, what would you say in these, going back to Enneagrams, are there then some specific things then that in each Enneagram group, Enneagram group would then lead more towards doing?
00:36:51
Speaker
Right. And, you know, that's a great question. And and what I tell people is, you know, once once they do get to the point where they want to take action, you know,
00:37:05
Speaker
The climate crisis is, there's a term now called hyper object. The hyper object is the thing that touches everything, right? And there's a parable about the elephants and the five blind men, you know, and you put five blind men into a room with an elephant. And they're all describing the problem in different ways, but the real problem is it's the elephant in the room.
00:37:34
Speaker
Right. Right. And so, you know, when I talk to people who want to take action, I ask them, you know, what are you passionate about? You know, are you passionate about, you know, recycling? Or are you passionate about single, you know, reducing single-use plastic? Or are you, you know, passionate about working with your local representative and getting them to do something?
00:38:00
Speaker
Or, you know, because we all need to do everything. And so the best thing to do is the thing that you're passionate about because you're bringing your whole heart and your whole self to it. And and that will infect other people to want to join you.
00:38:20
Speaker
because they'll see your passion and they'll want to join you in doing it. And so there's no wrong answer in taking climate action. It's an all of the above thing and just follow your heart and do what you can do while keeping in mind that
00:38:41
Speaker
You know, the, the most important thing you can do is actually start to reduce the amount of fossil fuel you burn in your life and then be that example, you know, so, you know, if you can bike instead of getting into the car bike, instead of getting into the car.
00:38:59
Speaker
and show everybody, hey, I'm biking. I'm going to bike to the station instead of taking the car. Whatever. Just start thinking about how you're using it. We're electrifying our home. And the last appliance that we had was the water heater. And we replaced our gas water heater with a heat pump water heater. And we turned off the gas to the house. Now there's no gas flowing to the house. And it's great.
00:39:29
Speaker
You know, so you just, and now the city is going to, you know, interview me and ask me about the experience and then they're going to put up my testimonial and you know, so I'm just going to like, you know, right there. That's what we do. Yeah.
00:39:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's just one little thing can make a difference now in and in the same aspect then in back again to even just the teamwork, teamwork, nine point. This is like that's teamwork right there in the big, big scope of things of life right there. And then in your work environment, then the same we when we.
00:40:05
Speaker
When we know that what we're doing has an impact in the organization we're part of, in the family unit we're in, in the city we live in and so forth, it does make a difference. Like when we realize our actions do affect another human being. So it all comes down also to that, that connectiveness of the human, of humanness of each other.
00:40:32
Speaker
it's very scalable you know it's from the smallest team like you know you and your partner or you and your family or i joined a rock band last year oh yes what do you play do you play or do you sing so i'm kind of a utility player i i can i i've been um doing vocals bass and drums with this band
00:40:54
Speaker
So yeah, it's but it's, you know, but all of them have different, you know, Enneagram styles, you know, so it's, you know, you see all those dynamics come into play in that situation, too. But it's everywhere, right? And, you know, and then, you know, oh, she's a one, that's why she's bringing this up. And, okay, I understand that. And let's, you know, work with her to, you know, help her solve this, you know, thing that she thinks is wrong. And let's help her get it to, you know, being right.
00:41:23
Speaker
Did you make them all in the band also take the test? I haven't said anything about the ending. This is all just my going on in my mind.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah, now they're gonna have to take it so that you guys even can just work more effectively. Yeah, that'd be interesting that in every single dynamic that we're in, that if we were to take that, but if not, then like you said, if we even have an understanding of what other people are in terms of personality is just how we relate to them that also shifts. And just by even changing that dynamic and that interaction, it already has an effect.
00:42:01
Speaker
Right. You know, and this just came up the other day, you know, you know, a one of the persons who's a type one had made a comment. And I thought, you know, how how would I respond to that? And I'm like, you know, so they're in, you know, the intuitive group and I'm in the head group.
00:42:21
Speaker
And the comment they made really made no sense to me, to my rational brain. So whatever I would say would come from a place of like, that doesn't make sense. Can you explain that to me? Whereas there's another person in the band who is also in that intuitive group who's a nine.
00:42:45
Speaker
And I know the nine will always say the nicest, softest thing and will understand the one way better than I do. So I just zipped my mouth and I just waited. And sure enough, the nine spoke up and said the most perfect thing. So, you know, just, you know, just having that knowledge and just being able to check myself and my reaction and just letting that naturally happen. It was, you know, that was worth the price of a mission on learning the Enneagram just for that.
00:43:13
Speaker
That's beautiful. But that takes a lot of self-control to do what you did of just like, okay, let me just wait, because I know that I will not say the right thing to this number one. But if I just wait, a number nine will say the right thing in order to...
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. That's wonderful. Okay. So then how many years has it been that you've been using this then in the workspace? I know you said 20 years ago was when your wife first brought it up. I honestly, it's only been in the last year that I've heard about this. So yeah.
00:43:51
Speaker
for myself. I had not heard about this, but again, I am not testing myself all the time to figure out what personality trait I am. The millennials are all over this.
00:44:02
Speaker
Yes. Or that I'm hearing it so much now. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and you, if you go onto YouTube and you Google Enneagram, there is just some hilarious comment, you know, videos and our different Enneagram types. When they were doing the same situation. Yeah. And it's a great way to learn about the different styles.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah. So for you then, when did you start implementing it then? It was probably, you know, it was shortly after I learned it, you know, I just started, you know, talking to people about it, you know, it was part of my learning process. Have you, do you know this? You know, are you interested in, you know, the people in my group would say, yeah, let's, I'll take the test. Sure. And, you know, and they took it. And so
00:44:49
Speaker
It was, it was pretty much right away that I was able to, you know, start to use it in, in the work setting very informally at first. Yeah. Okay. And now let's talk about your book. When did you launch it and how do people, how can people get ahold of it? Oh yeah. So, um, thank you for that. It's, we launched it March, 2020, right? As we were going into pandemic world.
00:45:13
Speaker
And so yeah, and it's available on Amazon and definitely, you know, check it out and you know, you can go to the website and take that assessment and that's complimentary and just love to get your feedback on your thoughts on the book and how you're using it. You know, it's always a delight to hear the different stories and different experiences people are having.
00:45:41
Speaker
Now, who is this book for? Who would be the, who is it for? Is it for someone that has, that is like yourself, a project that was a project manager that needed to figure out, is it for a parent? Is it for a teacher? Is it for somebody in the workspace? Who is the best person for this book? You know, so, um, the, the, the, the answer is leaders of teams. So I was thinking of, um, you know, project and program managers. I had them in mind.
00:46:10
Speaker
And then I just had managers in general who are managing a team and leaders in general who are leading a team. I wrote the book for them. It is just such a powerful tool for a leader to have that knowledge, even if their team doesn't. I'm sharing examples of how I use it with my band. They don't know the Enneagram, but I know the Enneagram.
00:46:38
Speaker
and as a leader you know i you know i want everybody to work well together and i know when i i can jump in and when i and i shouldn't and once other people can jump in and it's the perfect thing right and so understanding and i i talk about i have a chapter called shared leadership.
00:46:55
Speaker
It's like, when is it better for you to step back and let somebody else take that lead rather than just jumping in yourself? But it's for leaders in general that I really targeted the book.
00:47:11
Speaker
Wonderful, wonderful. Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share or any final words for the listeners as they're listening? Again, we've gotten a lot. We've gotten of how it is you can use it just for yourself, knowing your Enneagram. How is that helpful for yourself? How is it helpful when you're interacting with others in a work environment? How is it helpful in understanding that as you're dealing with a transition or grief experience in your life or a difficult time?
00:47:38
Speaker
And then how is it helpful when you're leading also then teams? So what other things would you like to share with the with the listeners regarding how they can use this knowledge? Yeah, and I've just I so appreciate this conversation and you asked all the all the right question is so great to be able to share this so
00:48:01
Speaker
I really, you know, you did such a good job of leading us through that. I don't have anything else to add. I'm glad. I'm glad I was able to ask the right questions to get to that. I learned so much about it. I learned so much about it. And again,
00:48:18
Speaker
The book is Teamwork 9.0 and author, Matt Schlegel, who is with us today again. And thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge on this topic and your own life experiences of how you've used this in your life. So thank you. Thank you, Kendra. It was a delight being with you today.
00:48:45
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
00:49:13
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.