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Taking the DIFFERENT Approach to Leadership Development
16 Plays5 days ago
Despite more than half a century of DEI initiatives women, and people of BAME communities still face challenges that make accessing senior management roles difficult. The problem is particularly common in the public sector. Traditionally the public sector has drawn employees from these communities, but it is usually still white males who end up in the top jobs.
Now two women who have broken through the glass ceiling have created DIFFERENT, a different way of providing the skills, knowledge, and wisdom that helped them build their successful careers.
Meena Kishinani and Deborah Cadman have both had long and highly successful careers as leaders of public sector organisations.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds you will hear Meena and Deborah share with host Michael Millward examples of why women and BAME public sector workers hit a glass ceiling. They explain what happened that enabled them to break through that glass ceiling.
Now they have brought what they benefited from informally into a structured programme that has been powered by Tile Hill and Newtrality, two organisations that are committed to creating proportional representation in senior Local Government leadership. DIFFERENT
Anj Popat, an associate director at specialist recruiter Tile Hill explains the important impact that this future focused programme, which is sponsored by change consultancy Newtrality, will have on the supply of high-quality candidates by giving women and BAME community members what they need to be application ready.
Anj, Deborah, and Meena reflect on the positive impact initiatives like DIFFERENT will have on public sector organisations that are under increasing pressure to do increasingly more with increasingly less.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and all his guests at Abeceder.co.uk
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Transcript
Welcome and Introductions
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah.
The DIFFERENT Program Overview
00:00:29
Speaker
Today i will be learning about DIFFERENT, a new approach to preparing women and BAME background people for senior management roles in local government.
00:00:40
Speaker
This episode of The Independent Minds is the first of a kind. Usually i have a single guest. Occasionally i may have two guests, but today for the first time I have three guests.
00:00:54
Speaker
Anj Popat is an associate director at Tile Hill, a recruitment company that focuses on supporting candidates to reach top level jobs in local government.
00:01:05
Speaker
Meena Kishniani is a senior local government executive and Deborah Kadman is a former chief executive of a combined authority and a regional development agency and it has experience at every level of local government.
00:01:20
Speaker
So, welcome to the first triple guest episode of The Independent Minds. Like every other episode of The Independent Minds, this episode has been made on Zencastr.
00:01:33
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
Zencastr Promotion
00:01:44
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one.
00:02:00
Speaker
one that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
00:02:13
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Minds are Anj Popat, Meena Kirishnani and Deborah Cadman. Hello. Hi, I'm Michael. Hi. Ange, please could you start by just ah telling us a little bit about you and about Tile Hill?
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, of course. Thanks, Michael. So I have been at Tile Hill for five and a half years now and been supporting the local government sector with executive recruitment for the last 10 years.
00:02:40
Speaker
Really passionate about this subject. I'm really excited to hear what Debra and Mina have to say. as a business, we're super excited to be involved in a programme that will hopefully make some difference to the sector in the coming years.
00:02:53
Speaker
Great. Meena, tell me about you. Hi. I have been in local government actually 40 years this month, ah so my whole working life, and have met have many of those years at work to executive director level. Nice. I've also, later this year, little further behind you, I will have spent 40 years as a member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, which means a long time working in ancient
00:03:22
Speaker
a long time. i feel for you. All sorts of different industries, but ah in different environments, including local government. But Deborah, tell me about you. Hi, Michael. and So I've worked in local government for a long time.
00:03:37
Speaker
probably more interestingly being a chief executive of all of organizations across all different levels of local government so that's district county council unitary and i've also been chief exec of a regional development agency and a combined authority so that's given me quite an interesting perspective on Communities, growth in communities and leadership and management of our organisations that are delivering services to our communities.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yes, I should think it also means you've dealt with some very big budgets as well. ah Quite, yes. It's very relevant given the the conversations today about so budgets and resources in local government.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yes, very much so. You always have to make every pound stretch as far as it will go. Tell me little bit about different. What is so different about different, Deborah?
Motivation Behind the DIFFERENT Program
00:04:35
Speaker
I think a good place to start is is to talk about the motivation for Mina and I wanting to do this. Today's world is changing. It's messy, it's difficult, it's complicated.
00:04:48
Speaker
And there are geopolitical issues at play which are impacting not just the country, our places, but individuals in those places as well. As a response to that that, local government leadership needs to ah reflect the rich diversity of our communities. And and one of the things that Mina and I found over the last 12 months, we were just appalled at the lack of people of colour coming through the appointment process.
00:05:16
Speaker
But worse than that, you know, people of colour not applying for the jobs in the first place. and And this is at a time when trust in local government is at an all time low, when there is more and more need to ensure that every penny, as you said before, Michael, that every penny counts when we're delivering services for our communities.
00:05:38
Speaker
So Mina and i felt there was a need for us to do something practically to support people of colour, the global majority, into places of of leadership.
00:05:50
Speaker
Connected to that, you know, a lot of my chief exec colleagues during the disturbances of last summer kind of ah privately admitted to me they felt really vulnerable in that they...
00:06:03
Speaker
They couldn't connect with the communities in the way in which they wanted to because they simply didn't have a diverse leadership team which enabled them to have a better understanding of both the challenges and the opportunities in those communities.
00:06:19
Speaker
So that was the motivation for doing the leadership programme in the first place. So we start off looking at an issue that affects people who are not white. How did it then expand to also cover people who were female?
00:06:32
Speaker
I mean, intersectionality will will be something that we will have to be aware of and take into consideration. So there are 15 people in the cohort in the first programme.
00:06:46
Speaker
We have nine male, six female. And the way in which women experience the leadership challenges, I would argue, is slightly different to those that are experienced by men. So it's and it's important that we we had a ah cohort that made up the kind of, how can I put it? If you look at the workforce in local government, women make up 50% of the workforce generally, but only something like 15% of the leadership at exec and chief exec level.
00:07:20
Speaker
So it was important to us that the programme didn't just focus on BAME, but also made it relevant and welcoming to women as well, because they have, I believe, different challenges in the leadership programme and development landscape.
00:07:38
Speaker
the The devil's advocate in me is going to say it must be 50 years since the Sex Discrimination Act came in.
00:07:50
Speaker
And we're still talking about these sorts of issues. Why is it necessary? Why hasn't it worked? Why do we still have these issues? we We could have a whole podcast about the patriarchy, couldn't we? And the challenges around that. We could.
00:08:08
Speaker
We could. We've all experienced or you can see it. think part of the argument is the legislation exists to protect people. Are people not taking advantage of it?
00:08:19
Speaker
What's happening that means that women, people who have BAME backgrounds don't get into these leadership positions, even though the education system is there and theoretically the opportunities are there, there must be something that is happening that means it isn't possible.
00:08:36
Speaker
What is it that isn't happening? Because I'm talking at the moment to two women who have both been in extremely high level senior management positions in local government.
00:08:49
Speaker
So why were you in those positions and other women weren't? ah yeah Okay, so let me start from a different position. Mina and I, are we're coaches and we're mentors to a whole range of people. And um when we spoke to people of colour, whether they were female or male, and and when we kind of said, why is
Challenges Faced by People of Color
00:09:10
Speaker
it, why is it that you're not achieving these positions? And more importantly, why aren't you applying for these positions? Because that's the other challenge, you know, lack of confidence, know,
00:09:18
Speaker
in applying and in some cases, not feeling that they had they were equipped enough with the kind of skills and experience that they needed in order to to capture some of these senior senior positions. And they said to us, almost every single one of them said, one, I don't feel confident enough.
00:09:38
Speaker
And I'm kind of worried about overreaching and failure. So that was the first thing. And then the second thing was I cannot see people that look like me positions of power and authority in the in the authorities that I'm applying for.
00:09:55
Speaker
So there is a real challenge, I think, which is almost subliminal for a lot of people from the global majority. they can't see people like them in positions of power and influence and seniority, they don't think it's a place for them.
00:10:12
Speaker
So that's one of the reasons. Now, now if if you're asking me and Amina will be talked very eloquently about this, about, you know, why was it different for me? The reason why it was different for me is because there were people who saw something in me that I didn't see in myself and people who were prepared to support, mentor, encourage and challenge me actually throughout all of my career.
00:10:36
Speaker
I did a ah ah recent interview for International Women's Day and and i and I was very clear about those women and and some men who have been instrumental in my career in giving me both opportunities and encouragement, but and also challenging me and pushing me and giving me real opportunities to experience different things and to acquire new and different skills.
00:11:01
Speaker
And that's one of the things that Mina and I are really passionate about. We'll all rise by lifting up others. You all stand on the shoulders of the past generation. Absolutely. But what you're saying then is that it's not about making ah the way to the top easy because you're talking about people recognising in you your potential, supporting you, but also challenging you.
00:11:26
Speaker
The challenge seems to be a key part of what you're talking about is that you weren't given a golden ticket Or an easy ride, absolutely not. was dependent upon someone seeing the potential in you and seeing that to be controversial for a moment seeing beyond you being a woman and going there is an individual with potential what do i and other people not just one person but other people saying What can we do to make sure that that person realises their potential?
00:12:01
Speaker
And of course, realise can also used in the other way, as you said, that you didn't initially see the potential that you had until other people had opened your eyes to it.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. But but equally, and and and we say this all the time to people as well, you've you've got to put the effort in you've got to work hard. Yes, absolutely.
00:12:25
Speaker
There is no shortcuts here because the work of a chief exec and a corporate director in local government is is hard and it's difficult and it's challenging. And you've got to have the resilience. You've got to have the experience. You've got to have the leadership skills for your people to follow you and be committed to delivering the vision. As you're leading them in a role that is very very often very much in the public eye as well.
00:12:51
Speaker
Absolutely right. Absolutely.
Structure of the DIFFERENT Program
00:12:53
Speaker
So you've got an idea for a program, you've got the inspiration for the program, you've identified the need for it, and then you develop the program. So Meena, tell me more about what the program actually involves.
00:13:07
Speaker
Okay, Michael. Yes. so So the programme is made up of a kind of number of elements, really. Just building on what kind of Deborah was just saying there, the content of this programme has been developed from our experience of of putting people through a technical assessment for either a chief exec or an executive director.
00:13:29
Speaker
And what we realised is there were things missing from people's content. And so when I tell you about the content, it's because these are the things we believe people were lacking. Now, what people were very well able to articulate, and that's this is really quite important, is their own specialism from their own directorate. So people were very well able to articulate if they came from housing or children or adults or environment very well.
00:13:55
Speaker
What they were unable to articulate as effectively is that kind of breadth that you need to be at an executive level in local government. And so kind of what does it mean to work across the organisation, to be a senior leader at the top of an organisation? So not just to think about your own service area, but kind of what it means to to to articulate that across the board.
00:14:14
Speaker
So the content really is about, was very much about that. So what we did in the first instance is that we put everybody through quite a rigorous assessment centre. And that was because we wanted a baseline for everybody. We wanted to make sure that everybody was aware of where we felt their areas of development were.
00:14:33
Speaker
Alongside that, to work with their chief executives that we have specifically called sponsors in this case. And what I believe, Michael, and yeah again, Deborah touched on that,
00:14:44
Speaker
is one of the things I believe was part was kind of contributed to my success, was the sponsors that I had, who, as as you said, recognised talent in me, gave me the opportunities, for example, to network with others,
00:15:00
Speaker
to to to tick to gain those networks and and the structures that I needed in place and some of the opportunities that I needed in order to go for those more senior positions. So that sponsorship element is another key element of this.
00:15:13
Speaker
The applicants have had a written statement from their chief executive that talks about why they are seen to be somebody that they want to nominate for the programme. So we're putting them through quite a rigorous assessment centre, which constitutes a member panel, an officer panel,
00:15:27
Speaker
and also um psychometric testing. We will then feed that back. We are putting them through what we call six modules over six months. Those modules as it range from ah all the things we believe you need to have at the system, at the at the executive director level. And they range from, the first one is on systems leadership, on working with politicians, right through to transformation, which is our end one. And the one, ah again, a really important one is about building personal resilience. So we've got a model in there specifically on that.
00:15:56
Speaker
We will then offer six months of coaching, some action learning sets, and the whole programme is being evaluated by the University of Birmingham. So we will get a formal evaluation of the programme, including some young longitudinal studies of a number of the candidates on the programme.
00:16:12
Speaker
but So there's the assessment, there's the modules, there's the action learning sets, there's the coaching, all of those over the 12-month period, and and that will include the evaluation. So quite a comprehensive kind of 12-month programme.
00:16:25
Speaker
that we'll be putting our candidates through. Doesn't sound like it's going to be an easy ride. No, definitely not. and And very deliberately, actually, because as Deborah said, to be an executive director in local government, to be a chief exec in local government is a very hard job.
00:16:39
Speaker
And Deborah and I can talk about that from experience, you have very difficult roles. But what we also want people to realise, and one of the things that one of my sponsors did for me is very much make me realise about transferable skills.
00:16:51
Speaker
So what we don't want is people to be caught in a funnel thinking that the only way they can go is to become a director from within their own specialism. They may choose to do that, and that's absolutely fine. But what we want them to see is that their skills can be transferable.
00:17:04
Speaker
as part of this program. Very often when I have conversations with people on the independent minds, I get flashback some stage of my career. I started my career in HR working in the NHS.
00:17:16
Speaker
My job was administrative support for the team that was managing the NHS's national administrative training scheme, which later became the national management training scheme, but it was a graduate training scheme.
00:17:32
Speaker
And although My recollections of that scheme were that it wasn't quite as intense as what you're describing. What you are describing is something quite like that, which was a graduate training scheme where you find people with potential and it doesn't sound from what you're saying as if there's any age limit on the people that you're looking for.
00:17:56
Speaker
And you fill them with lots of knowledge and experience and connections that will enable them to realize their potential.
Goals for Diverse Leadership Pipelines
00:18:06
Speaker
You actually, first of all, you identify the person's potential.
00:18:09
Speaker
You get the people that are working with them to say, yes, that potential is there. You bring them all up to the same level and then you give them a lot of intense knowledge and and experience so that they can then go off and move up the move up the hierarchy into those senior leadership roles.
00:18:28
Speaker
it It is, but this is slightly different. I'm a great advocate of the of the graduate scheme that's run for local government in particular, um and I've put many people through it and um have supported many and and continuing actually to support quite a few.
00:18:42
Speaker
This programme, though, is aimed at the more senior levels in local government. So what we're looking for is people who have already reached kind of head of service or assistant director level who have aspirations to become an executive director or a chief executive, because what we want to do here, Michael, is create the pipeline through to chief exec.
00:19:01
Speaker
You know, if you just look at the statistics, you know, in London, there are 33 authorities in London and only five non-white chief execs and probably across the country, no more than 10. And if you look at the demographics that these people are serving, that is just not acceptable, you know, in this day and age.
00:19:17
Speaker
And therefore, this is looking to create the pipeline through to chief executive. So we are aiming this programme, as we said, at those kind of head to service, or assistant directors that chief execs are nominating as talent that they want to see progress through their organisations.
00:19:34
Speaker
In that sense, it although the the National Graduate Programme puts people through a rigorous assessment, this is suggesting that people have already gone through that element and are already have already reached a position, but of kind of facing a glass ceiling. And this is what we're trying to break and this through this programme.
00:19:52
Speaker
been very clear about developing a programme that focuses on things that are very current, relevant and important. and And I'm in no way criticising other leadership courses that they all have a place. And this absolutely isn't a zero-sum game in terms of delivering development opportunities for the global majority. But we've been very thoughtful about what is it that people need to know and understand in today's environment.
00:20:26
Speaker
And if you look at global politics, It is a really challenging place at the moment, and you cannot operate in a hermetically sealed bubble any longer. So being able to identify and work within a system, in both in your organisation, your place and the world, actually, is becoming more and more important. And that the skills and experience around working in systems are very different to to the traditional environment.
00:20:51
Speaker
leadership skills that have been taught in in the past. And then politics is is difficult and different now. So both with a big and a small P. so So people's ability to understand the political system that they operate in is going to be really, really important. And then how you govern.
00:21:11
Speaker
What are your responsibilities? What are the levers you you can pull? And what are the things that you need to know? And what are the areas and the boundaries that you need to work within in in terms of finance and legal services and scrutiny.
Transformation in Leadership Needs
00:21:24
Speaker
There are certain things that are kind of non-negotiable when you're doing your job in a way that wasn't like that when I started 23 years ago. And then communities are very different now, aren't they? they're more Many of our communities are more diverse than white and have different demands and expectations, but also this plummeting trust in in local government. So the way in which we engage with our communities with in an authentic and humble way, but also from a position of strength and knowledge is is becoming more and more important and how we communicate and engage our communities are more and more important. and then
00:22:03
Speaker
You've heard Mina and I say that local government leadership roles are becoming more and more challenging and difficult. and So how do you gain a sense of resilience in doing your job? Because it is ah feels like a constant tsunami of challenges that that kind of come your way. And you've got to be equipped to be able to to deal with those and bring resilience in your response.
00:22:26
Speaker
this is This is something that's also incredibly important that we'll debate and discuss with the cohort. And that's what's the trigger. And what I mean by that is we are constantly told that we've got to be more efficient, more effective. We've got to get more from less.
00:22:42
Speaker
We've got to make the systems that we operate in and the services we deliver better and more effective. But actually the trigger, there is a trigger point, isn't there, where you come to a conclusion and a realisation that optimizing what you're doing is never, ever going to cut you.
00:23:00
Speaker
So you need to transform. And what does that transformation look and feel like? And how do you do it? And what skills do you need to do in order to transform services that you deliver at the same time as ensuring that you meet the demands? And I describe it as we're all flying a Learjet and building the wings at the same time.
00:23:21
Speaker
That's quite a picture. yeah You know, that ability to shift from doing same old, same old to transforming to the new order is really, really critical and challenging, but necessary. Yes, I think listening to...
00:23:36
Speaker
You, Deborah, and also Tamina describe all of this. Feels as if part of this program, different, is not just about the the technical skills, the leadership skills, the political skills, the personal resilience skills, the transformations. You've got the whole gamut of different things, and I think you've covered everything.
00:23:58
Speaker
And the one thing that I also think I want to make sure that we mention is that this ability or the the wisdom i think is wisdom is a good word to use in how those things are applied in the types of situations that you've just described so that those skills become leadership so that there's understanding of the employees understanding of the the communities so that when people hear senior leadership from their local government organization
00:24:33
Speaker
there is an understanding of the local government's role within that person's life. Yes. I think that's a good description. Yeah. Because when we talk about leadership within a corporate organisation, a private sector organisation, one that's listed on the stock exchange, so to speak, it's all very much internally focused and the outward activities are marketing.
00:24:55
Speaker
One of the things I suppose I've learnt, I think, or you've made it much clearer for me, at least in this, in our conversation and only a very short conversation, I admit, but it's the the senior executive in a local government organization is leading an organization that delivers services to a community that that senior executive also has to be a leader of to the community.
00:25:24
Speaker
It's not just a job in terms of, I've got this team of however many people it is, I'm managing this budget. I am also leading the community and putting what is important to the community into action.
00:25:38
Speaker
I think one of the other big issues for for the cohort, and this this is really difficult to to teach, but more important to learn, and that's that's how you lead your people and how, you know, success.
00:25:52
Speaker
I always thought, you know, I was only ever as good as the people that I worked with. Definitely, yes. So working hard to lead your people in an authentic and effective way is a really, really important part of the job.
00:26:06
Speaker
and And a lot of that comes from experience, not from a textbook. And I think, Michael, just to add to that, I think, you know, from what you just said, it's not enough to just be a specialist in your own area.
00:26:19
Speaker
it It isn't enough because, as you said, This is about leadership at the most senior levels and it's about leading your communities and leading your organisations through very difficult times.
00:26:32
Speaker
Being a specialist in your area, however important, isn't the be all and end all. you need It's not the end result. you you know To be an executive director or a chief exec, you need to be leading the organisation in its totality.
Tile Hill's Role in Leadership Support
00:26:45
Speaker
and And I suppose with the support of Tile Hill and Ange, Once you've got these people prepared for those types of roles, Tile Hill come in and help find those leadership roles that those people can fill.
00:26:57
Speaker
To some extent, yes, Michael. um And it won't necessarily always be ours, but we're firmly of the belief that, yes, the sector needs to do something about this.
00:27:08
Speaker
As an extension of the sector, any executive search firm that supports local government up and down the country should be thinking about this. should be thinking about ways we can support to create that type talent pipeline and and to ensure that representation.
00:27:23
Speaker
and if we aren't part of the solution, then I'm not really sure entirely what the point would be. which is very good. it's very refreshing to hear from an executive search organisation as well. But, you know,
00:27:38
Speaker
Meena, Deborah, Anj, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I've learned a little bit more about this whole sort of diversity, equality, inclusion issue and very practical steps that you are taking to try and address it and open up those senior leadership opportunities.
00:27:57
Speaker
I'm grateful. ah your time and for your forbearance with us doing a conversation with three guests thank you very much it was great thank you for the opportunity it was good to speak thank you thank you thank you michael thank you mike thank you i am michael mill ward managing director of abbasida and i have been having conversation with the independent minds anj popat mina kishniani and deborah cadman can find out more about all of us and different at abucida.co.uk.
00:28:29
Speaker
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00:28:47
Speaker
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00:29:02
Speaker
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00:29:18
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.