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You're So Vain, You Probably Think This Podcast is About You
133 Plays6 months ago
Thanks for listening to Season 1, Episode 9 of The After Dinner Mint, a podcast of Stories I’d Tell You at Dinner. We bring Christian women in Western Australia together through honest stories. Thanks for sharing your day with us!
You’re So Vain, You Probably Think This Podcast is About You is a conversation with Rach, Britt, Maddy, and Bec about our vain interests (see: fashion, deep-diving true crime podcasts, mindless celebrity knowledge, trashy novels, and music you scream-sing in the car with no kids around). The kind of stuff you wonder… “As a Christian, should I even be into this?”
In today’s episode, we:
🎧 Discuss what we are learning about pleasure, freedom, gratitude, and boundaries.
🎧 Deep dive about personality, identity, stewardship, and the authenticity trap
🎧 Share how we work out (even on air), whether a book or a show is a good thing for us
🎧 The role of community in working out what we watch and don’t watch, read or don’t read, listen or don’t listen to.
Check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the show.
Learn more about the Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner team.
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for free encouragement in your inbox on Wednesdays from local Christian women. One week you get essays and poetry, the next week you get a podcast episode.
Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
For me, instead of like being nuanced and having like a middle ground, I'll just go, well, that's not cool and I don't want to listen to it. This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner.
00:00:13
Speaker
Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table. It's not a sermon.
00:00:24
Speaker
It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hi, I'm Britt, and today I'm here with Maddie, Rachel, and Bec. you guys want to say hi? Hi. Hello. hi Today we're going to talk about when your interests are vain. So I guess this is born out of my own thinking around what do i do if actually the things I'm interested in maybe feel a bit vain at times, like being interested in clothing, being interested in pop culture,
00:01:08
Speaker
deep diving true kind cases like the mushroom case daily.
00:01:15
Speaker
And you get to the end of the week and you think, have I just spent all the hours I had that were free, which were limited, deep diving these kind of interests that I have and not necessarily spending time reading the Bible or doing the things that might glorify God.
00:01:30
Speaker
So I've been thinking about this for a long time and trying to work out what is right in terms of being godly and in honoring God and what is kind of part your personality and totally fine to pursue.
00:01:43
Speaker
So I wanted to put it out to you guys and really think this through together, but what are you interested in but feel like as a Christian maybe you shouldn't care about?
00:01:53
Speaker
And I'm going to throw it to Maddie first. Off. This is a tricky one. Look, I asked my husband about this and I said, what do I have, you know, what interests do I have that are vain? And he just looked me and he said, Harry Potter. And I was like, that to my face. Anyway, but I guess like considering, it's like, where do I spend my time? You're right.
00:02:16
Speaker
It's those times during the week when you actually could be investing in Bible reading or listening or thinking and meditating on something more, the Bible or something a bit more helpful for your day to day.
00:02:27
Speaker
but then you spend it thinking about other things or scrolling or whatever. I really love fantasy books or like those stupid fiction books where I can get lost because I think this energizes me. It lets me lose myself in some sort of other world, but I'm thinking it's actually not helpful.
00:02:42
Speaker
It's not like, yeah. Anyway, but how do you balance that? Because they're good things, but not, yeah. what What are you guys, have you guys been thinking about that? Yeah, it's a hard one. I think mine is definitely music, like as in listening to music. And I, because I am ah So, oh, this is this is a confession, but I really not a big fan of Christian music in general. I've had a lot of people go, oh, I only listen to either worship music or Christian music during the week and it's really helpful. like, I can see how that would be helpful, but I just, a lot of it is not very good musically. Yeah.
00:03:16
Speaker
I don't want to hear the bridge eight times. I don't. But for me, instead of like being nuanced and having like a middle ground, I'll just go, well, that's not cool and I don't want to listen to it. So I'm not going to listen Because ah tend to overcorrect.
00:03:31
Speaker
And so I like lots of different music, but a lot of music that I probably wouldn't listen to in front of other Christians. Like what? Give an example. Who's someone you listen to? Okay, like Eminem or basically lots of songs with swearing in it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and like lots of hard rock and that sort of stuff that people tend to think is...
00:03:49
Speaker
satanic, I don't know, Metallica and things like that. Well, I think the flip side though of that is so one of the things I haven't necessarily been called out on, but I had a conversation with someone where I said, this TV show is really, I really like this TV show. And then they said, for my stage of life, as like a single person, this is an unhelpful show for me because it romanticizes love in a way, which I think music can do a lot of, that I feel like is unhelpful and makes it an idol for me.
00:04:15
Speaker
And then I was like, oh, like I'm not in that stage of life, but I didn't even think of that. Oh, I was recommending it to them. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I can't know that. With music, with anything that you can consume,
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? to trying and To find like, what's okay for me? What's okay for others? What should I do, but maybe not tell people? what do you think, Rach? And I think similarly to Maddie is that I like it because of how it makes me feel. It's an escape.
00:04:43
Speaker
It's the yeah am it's a fantasy book or whatever. Like particularly when I'm driving, because now that all three of my kids are in school, when I drive, often I get to drive by myself so I can listen to something really loud and just like feel it. And it's great, which I think a lot of people do with worship music, which is probably ah more helpful thing for me to do. Cause I have delved into doing that recently where I was like, maybe I should just listen to some Christian music and see how it makes me feel. And it actually is really helpful for refocusing where your focus is.
00:05:13
Speaker
which is annoying when stuff like that is going, oh, damn it, it's actually really helpful and I don't want to do it. But I also don't know if, I don't think that like all music is evil because when my dad became a Christian, when he, so my dad was is a first generation Christian, he burnt, like he's a massive music fan and he had a massive record collection and he burnt them all.
00:05:35
Speaker
When he became a Christian, he burnt, which is really sad to me because I would have loved to have that record collection now. And I think, in like now you know years on he wouldn't do that but I think at the time that's what he felt what he needed to do when he first became a Christian was like he was very passionate and so that's what he did yes there's a middle ground but I'm just not sure where it is so yeah I think there's something in there like when I thought about this I was like sure I'm interested in fashion but probably not to the same extent as like Brit and But I reckon it was all a real wrestle for me because I really love to read and I read a whole range of stuff. And some stuff is just like, this is terrible, this is trash, but I'm here for it. Like, I love it.
00:06:13
Speaker
Like, I just love to read. But I also really like to write and write poetry and to write essays. And it took me such a long time to be like, oh, well, why would I do this, like, publicly? What is the purpose of it if it's just for me to have fun?
00:06:28
Speaker
And maybe other personality types don't wrestle like that. But it took me such a long time to be like, I could just do this because it's fun, because I would like to do it and it doesn't have to be, you know, for any grander purpose.
00:06:46
Speaker
But I felt like there something really freeing in that. Look, I found this C.S. Lewis quote and I just thought it was, it's in the Scrochette Letters, which is really fun. It's not fun. It's not a fun book. It's not.
00:07:02
Speaker
Okay, fine. Whatever. This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. You're like, no, I hate C.S. Lewis. I love C.S. Lewis. I just find that book terrifying. But anyway, keep going. Yeah, it is terrifying. It totally is, man.
00:07:13
Speaker
But so, you know, like whatever. He's talking from the point of like the older devil tempting the younger devil. And then there's the man who's oblivious to all this. And the man's been going off doing stuff, living his best life now. And then the uncle devil is saying to the younger devil, like, you know, now for your blunders.
00:07:32
Speaker
On your own, showing, first of all, you allowed the patient to read a book he really enjoyed because he enjoyed it and not to make clever remarks about it to his new friend. In the second place, you allowed him to walk down to the old mill and have tea there or walk through the country he really liked and taken the loan.
00:07:47
Speaker
In other words, you allowed him two real positive pleasures. Were you so ignorant not to see the death danger of this? hello Yeah. That's not the take C.S. Lewis would have had.
00:08:00
Speaker
i like that. So is the point of that he's saying they could be tempted by that when they did something they enjoy? Is that the context? No, no. What he's saying is so originally this man is kind of he's a new Christian.
00:08:13
Speaker
And then he goes off and he's got all these really worldly friends. i'm like, whatever. They're hanging out bars, doing all of whatever. And he thinks he's, like, really cool. And that is the temptation for him. And then all of a sudden the devil can't get at him because he's just gone off and done this stuff that he actually really enjoys.
00:08:30
Speaker
Oh. Huh. Like, God gives you, like, real pleasure. Like, some stuff is just fun, like, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:41
Speaker
It's funny because in preparing for this, I thought of Matthew 6, 26 to 30. Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can one of you, by worrying, add a single hour your life? And this is probably a bit more applicable to something to me And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
00:09:11
Speaker
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, you of little faith? Just that sense of God caring for us no matter what.
00:09:26
Speaker
And it's like maybe part of that caring for us is giving us things that we're interested in like those little gifts on earth of things that we can just enjoy and we don't need to like feel bad. of And obviously if they're taking all our time,
00:09:39
Speaker
probably not the best. I think there's a line, but it is a gift to have enjoyment. Like the other day I interviewed Mariah Latwayo. So she's one of the writers for stories and she's a musician and releasing an album. And she was talking about like how she loves music like you, Rachel, but loves it.
00:09:56
Speaker
She was like, I love Stevie Wonder so much. She's like, you know, thank God for like Stevie Wonder. Like it's just. Isn't he lovely? How does this exist? It's so great. Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yes. Well, Eddie, what were going to say? I was just going to say, like, it's interesting that it's kind reflection of God's common grace to people and to our world that even non-Christians and even the kind of art and things that non-Christians produce can reflect his glory, even when they don't necessarily mean to, because they are image bearers of God.
00:10:27
Speaker
And so you even think about what Jesus says when the people are praising him as he's going into Jerusalem. Pharisees are really angry and they say, stop allowing these people to praise you. And he says, look, if these people don't praise me, the mountains will praise me.
00:10:41
Speaker
They will fall down and praise me. And you think about creation and Psalm 96 kind of has this comment on, let all creation rejoice before the Lord. The trees and the forest sing for joy. And just in remarking how God's creation can't help but reflect his glory and praise him, there is a common grace around us that we can actually enjoy the things that God gives us, I guess what becomes a problem is when they replace God.
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah. And become something worshipped in and of themselves. Actually, you know, God also created us with our diversity. We're allowed to have different opinions on these things and also to enjoy different things. If your entity is in that, then that's actually where it's becoming a bit more of a problem, or whether it's fashion or whether it's, you know, wearing what's, where are you actually investing most of your time? Where is your identity?
00:11:33
Speaker
Anyway, there's a few different points in that, but yeah. What do you reckon, Rach? Yeah, no, I absolutely, I think that's definitely been a, and not just with music, but in general, is that I really like push against maybe growing up in the ninety s in the 90s church culture,
00:11:48
Speaker
There's a lot of really dorky Christians and I really like don't like that image of Christians. And so I think I really push against that. I want to be able to function in the world with other people, ah but then that can also go the other way of being too assimilated to the world.
00:12:07
Speaker
But I also think that it's really easy to go, oh well, I like this thing and I don't find my identity in it, so then it's fine. But I think there is also... wisdom in not consuming some things that you go, you know, like, because technically God provided us the Kardashians and I don't know if that's, you know, if that's something you really love. don't know if that's a cool thing to be consuming all the time because I also thought a lot with Philippians 4 about, you know, whatever is noble, whatever is true, whatever is lovely.
00:12:40
Speaker
Think on those things and potentially a lot of the things we consume, particularly in media, are not those But I also don't think that completely cutting out media is the answer to that.
00:12:53
Speaker
So ah discuss. Go back. Oh, everyone's mad. Yeah. I reckon something to consider is sometimes you're like, hey, I'm here for this. Like, look, I want to turn my brain off. I want to have a bit of time to just like, yes, this is a terrible fantasy novel.
00:13:10
Speaker
I know what I came here for. Fine. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You're like, I didn't come here for like the Pulitzer Prize. I'm fine with that, right? yeah But sometimes like reckon it's worth being aware of, oh, like is this making me more discontent with my life? Is it fostering things in your heart that aren't great?
00:13:32
Speaker
then I reckon that's something to be mindful of. Like, is this truly a pleasure or is this just me escaping stuff that I have to deal with or making me discontent? o Yeah, even when you're talking about all of this, it makes me think of Romans 14.
00:13:46
Speaker
where they're talking about like the weaker brother. So someone is considering something's totally fine to do and the other person thinks, no, I can't do that. And obviously from my understanding and Maddie as our local theologian, you you can correct me where I go wrong here. But I thought it was to do Gentiles and Jews. Like some still wanted to follow some of the Jewish rules. Some of them were fully convinced they could live this Gentile lifestyle.
00:14:13
Speaker
And essentially it seems to me like what the Bible is trying to say is be fully convinced in your own mind but also be kind to your brother or sister. So, you know, like kind of a classic one, and Rachel, you might have memories of this from your 90s Christian upbringing.
00:14:30
Speaker
What would Jesus do? Like drinking alcohol. Like I have been in – gospel groups over the years where when you're having dinner sometimes wine might be offered and that is totally fine and then we were in one where somebody had a relative that had an issue with alcohol and we never drank alcohol together and it was like an understood thing that this person struggles with this and it's just not appropriate that we even if we can control ourselves and we're only going to have one glass and we think alcohol is fine you're kind of being mindful of somebody that has a different need to you and being kind to them and therefore abstaining
00:15:08
Speaker
And so I wonder that with the media and the music and what we're consuming, it's about being fully convinced in your own heart that what you're doing is actually okay between you and God and you can know that.
00:15:21
Speaker
And then also considering your brother or sister. And I guess that's why I bring up the example of me talking about a TV show I liked to someone only to realise they actually found that unhelpful.
00:15:34
Speaker
And I hadn't even even thought of it because in my heart it didn't develop this sense of like needing this romance or needing a kind of idealistic relationship.
00:15:46
Speaker
o But for someone in a different position, and it really doesn't matter if someone's married or not because you can be married and end up projecting idealised views of romance on your partner that just aren't the reality of what God says relationships are. Like there's just so much.
00:16:03
Speaker
There's a lot of grey here, guys, is what I'm realising. yeah Much nuance. And I think I was just thinking with what you said just then about like you can know between you and God if what you're doing is right. And I think that's a big part of it is that if your relationship, if your relationship with Christ is open and then you are listening listening to the Holy Spirit, then you are able to then hopefully be convicted. And then God personally goes, Hey, maybe this is not the most edifying choice,
00:16:37
Speaker
um which which is an ongoing thing. And sometimes for seasons, some things are, okay. And then I've had things where I've gone, Oh, I don't think that's a wise choice anymore. I've now learned more and gone, this is not helpful.
00:16:52
Speaker
And then yeah, back. Yeah. I've definitely found that in terms of sometimes what I've watched in the past that, you know, so like I might've watched a TV show in the past and thought it was fine. And then these days I go, Oh, I would not recommend that. I think that was really unhelpful for my you know, my expectations or my body image. Or I remember talking, even my mum, i didn't grow up in a Christian home. And I remember my mum looking at the music I was listening to, and it was a bit emo, to be honest, a bit of evanescence.
00:17:20
Speaker
And she was like, you know, that you consume what you, you're literally consuming, it will shape how you think what you're, what you're consuming. And I kind of, and this is, yeah, yeah, exactly. You are what you eat.
00:17:32
Speaker
And like Even though I kept listening to that music because it was advice from my mum and I didn't want to take it. um Helpful note for parents. But I thought to think about that still and I go, oh because even like I had some body issues myself like a number of years ago that I've had to deal with and continue to kind of plague me.
00:17:51
Speaker
And i I was looking at Instagram. And Instagram, there was all this stuff coming up about what food I should be eating, how I should be looking, how I should be. And so I had to delete Instagram because it was feeding me.
00:18:02
Speaker
It was just feeding the kind of knot of sin and anxiety inside. And so I just had to no, that's not helpful. And when people started recommending things on Instagram, I went,
00:18:13
Speaker
actually, I'm actually not on Instagram. So you might have to share that with me another means instead of trying to come back in. And people kind of like were really respectful towards that as well. It's not like they ever said to me, ah why aren't you on Instagram?
00:18:27
Speaker
Like, you know, that's really, this is a really kind of a trivial example using Instagram. But I also had like an actual pastor said to me once when I was saying, I was say so mentally tired. I'm spending so much time just I'd rather be reading than looking at these resources, these parenting resources when my son was going through a bit of a tricky time.
00:18:45
Speaker
And then he said, yeah, look, it is good like good to make sure that you're resting and doing things that energize yourself. But also sometimes there's a need and you just got to fill it. And so I was using that to push something away that I didn't feel like doing. It felt like too much energy. But actually when I did it, it was quite edifying.
00:19:03
Speaker
I think that's what the enemy kind of makes us think to read the Bible, to consume anything that's actually helpful for our spiritual growth can be to take too much energy. And these other things, oh, they feed us, that they make us feel relaxed.
00:19:17
Speaker
And I think that's actually really, it's an unhelpful um kind of temptation that we have to to fall into that pattern of thinking when we're actually as soon as you do pick up your Bible and you might even read like a couple of verses, it's like, oh this is actually really nice.
00:19:32
Speaker
Or, you know, you've read this this Christian parenting book or this Christian podcast or sermon. You go, okay, it felt hard to get there. Like I don't know why it felt so hard to get there. But now that I have, I actually do feel really refreshed from it.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Anyone want to speak into that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's just coming back to kind of like what Rachel was saying, what you were saying, where it's like that general sense of, pleasure.
00:19:55
Speaker
You know, sometimes actually it's a junk in, junk out. You're like, okay, sometimes I can go read a terrible novel or whatever. And that's fine. But if that's my only diet, if I'm only ever eating junk food, yeah like then that's a problem.
00:20:08
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, but sometimes sure. But I think in terms, for me, in terms of like writing, I have noticed that like my writing is better. If I read stuff that's like beautifully written,
00:20:18
Speaker
like, you know, a whole range of stuff. Hey, maybe sometimes I read poetry. Sometimes you read something else and you're like, great, well, then what's going to come out of me is going to be better. Like the stuff that I'm going to create is going to be better.
00:20:30
Speaker
You know, I can't expect to read, eat junk food all the time and wonder why I can't run to like mix my metaphors. I mean, I don't run, but that's what I imagine would happen if I did run. Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
Well, not running could be why you don't run. Yeah. I'm going to have to differ on this, mate. yeah You guys might have already answered this, but how has God challenged you in what you think about or what the Bible directs us to think about, whatever is true, cetera, and how do we define this?
00:21:04
Speaker
I think I have often think Romans 12 which is do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And so I often have thought, I often think about that, like, okay, this thing that I'm,
00:21:21
Speaker
doing And I think that is a lifelong pursuit, the renewing of one's mind, and also a like ongoing, continuous, constant tense of it is being renewed and it will be renewed and it is renewed.
00:21:34
Speaker
That it's in Greek, it makes more sense. But yeah, I often think about that of... And I think maybe the sometimes you go, okay, well, I've done this thing that I'm consuming. it's transform It's maybe delaying the transforming of my mind that I would be having would I be making a better choice.
00:21:52
Speaker
And so I think sometimes i don't i don't know whether it's made, but maybe be I don't know what I'm saying.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah. That's relatable. yeah Yeah, I don't know. um But i do I do, that is a verse I think of a lot of, okay, how do I transform my mind differently? to not conform to the world but then also enjoy the things of the world in that.
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah. Everything in the world is God's and all that is in it is his. but And I think the answer is I don't know. i don't know how I do that. Yeah, I think there's something in there. I think there's kind of like those things all together. God made everything. He made everything.
00:22:32
Speaker
He made beautiful things just because he could. Like he's the source of beauty, right? Yeah. and There's common grace in that. well God made Rach to love music and bri you love fashion and the creativity and that visual.
00:22:43
Speaker
You know, Maddie and I are probably like more words people. But you think, yeah, there's like personality. He made you a certain way and you're like, oh, my soul lights up when I get to do this thing. How awesome. But then there's like that trickiness where you're like, oh, because I love this, I'm going be tempted in this direction.
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah. Because of that. So it's being mindful of it. And also like what you were saying, Brit, in terms of the weaker brother, we where you're like, well, I should get to have this because I like it and it doesn't matter that ah you're tempted by that.
00:23:13
Speaker
So there are those temptations to like pride or discontent in that as well. oh So I reckon there's a lot of nuance because it's you want to be the person God's created you to be and I think the weird thing that I have found is in my whole wrestle about like, oh, well, can I just do something because it's fun?
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah. Like, actually, in the end, by, like, drawing closer to God, ironically, i end up doing the things that I really love to do and they make me really happy. Like, yeah.
00:23:50
Speaker
I'm actually really happy when I'm writing or reading or doing those things and that's who he made me to be. And that's your, like, I guess your attitude towards that needs to be in check too.
00:24:04
Speaker
What were talking about, how some of these things can lead to a bit of a pride and arrogance. And it's actually thinking about who do we thank for these things? We can actually just thank God and praise God for these things and go, thanks for your common grace in these things.
00:24:19
Speaker
In recognising who these good things come from, Because actually can, like, I think sometimes we think it can sometimes be a bit of a culture of like, you know, when churches pray for finances and stuff like that, it's like finances, that's pretty materialistic. Well, actually, we know that the finances come from God and that's actually important to pray for.
00:24:39
Speaker
We know who the source of these good things are and we are praying that we would use them for his glory and the good of others. So it's kind of what we're consuming today.
00:24:50
Speaker
and the things we're enjoying and the pleasures that we we're having in recognising that we can actually thank God for them, that it's not because guess when we think about vain or vanity, like in Ecclesiastes, that's kind of that worthless breath, that its fleeting thing, um the thing that doesn't last.
00:25:09
Speaker
So we can have interests in things that don't last. But actually in recognising the source of all the good things in our life is God and he is our eternal father and we can praise him. for it.
00:25:20
Speaker
And that's where our identity is, not necessarily these kind of fleeting things. Yeah. I don't know if I made sense with that. Yeah. No, that was actually very helpful. Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker
You brought a lot of clarity with that statement, with what you were saying. It did make me think about one of those other wrestles I think Christians can face sometimes is wealth. Like some people end up with a lot of money and some people don't have a lot of money.
00:25:49
Speaker
And I know my husband went to men's talk where person was quite a successful businessman and his advice was if you were in a position where you just are earning money, like you happen to have wealth, I guess, by a worldly standard, you should just give a lot of your money away.
00:26:10
Speaker
Basically give until it feels like it hurts a bit. and um It's a good thing to think about. Like, yeah, like think about your weaker brother. Think about how you can help the community. Think about what it means in terms of where it has come from, this gift these gifts that we have.
00:26:30
Speaker
And I love that image you talked about from Ecclesiastes of the fleeting breath. Like such a good image for me. I think you're right, Bec. Perhaps I am quite imagery-based.
00:26:42
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It actually really helps me understand things when I can visualize them in my head. And now that I think about it, I'm like, hmm, it's obviously just a thing of how I've been made. That's great.
00:26:54
Speaker
This may be a spanner in the works, but I keep thinking, I read an article this week and it was actually about another topic we're talking about in another podcast. But one of the lines was, God didn't make us to be our truest self.
00:27:07
Speaker
He doesn't call us to be our truest self. He calls us to be holy as he is holy. And so I'm just trying to think in this topic of like, right, okay, sure, there's things I love, there's things that my character that God has made that call me to certain things that I love, but he also calls me to be holy, which is not my doing. I can't make myself holy. Yeah.
00:27:32
Speaker
And so I just think there's like there's that tension there of, yes, God made us to be who we are and he gave us talents and he gave us proclivities and whatever, which is good and we can live within those and work within those and glorify him in them.
00:27:47
Speaker
But I think it's very easy to just go, oh, but this is just my personality and this is what I like and this is how God made me and this is my true self. This is me being authentic rather than, okay, am I moving towards holiness?
00:28:02
Speaker
Discuss.
00:28:05
Speaker
And holiness every day. Yeah. In the everyday moments. Does anyone have anything they want to add to that? I think that I was just going to say about the the authentic self is is such a, um ah it's such a, it's kind of a tempting lie by our culture that we have an authentic, it's ah it's a trap. That's it. That's the word I was thinking of.
00:28:31
Speaker
It's, you know, we're actually called to be Holly as he is Holly. And the image that we're created in is the image of God and we're called to be like Christ. Paul says, imitate me as I imitate Christ.
00:28:44
Speaker
and And, you know, he um and the manner in which he conducts himself amongst others is in a way that's helpful and encouraging. And Yeah, it's not as considerate.
00:28:56
Speaker
I'm not leading others astray with what he does. And it's interesting, you know, that we can think about the authentic self is like, oh, you do you.
00:29:06
Speaker
This is your interest. You know, you take. Again, it comes back to identity, doesn't it? It comes back to this like false identity. And then it's a trap because the idea is that we have so much freedom, but actually we have so much anxiety because we don't have healthy boundaries in place.
00:29:24
Speaker
give us any kind of direction. That's how the culture is kind of going. And that's actually where the image of Christ is really helpful because it reminds us, oh, this is actually who God's called me to be.
00:29:38
Speaker
um I don't need to try and figure this out on my own. yeah I'm called and I've been given the spirit to help sanctify me. I'm justified. I'm sanctified.
00:29:48
Speaker
I am absolutely cherished and loved. And so that's actually something that our culture is craving is love um and honour, which we get.
00:30:01
Speaker
We get not through our interests, not through proving our own identity, through various things that actually will pass away. Our interest in music, our fashion, these things do pass away. But what lasts forever is that we're part of God's family.
00:30:16
Speaker
What am I taking to heaven? Yeah. its It's like the people I'm investing in and it's my relationship with God that I'm investing in. And so it is, yeah, it's a really hard thing to remember fast because we get caught in the day-to-day and we do need to function in the day-to-day. We need to function in the world.
00:30:32
Speaker
But like what Rach said earlier, we need to be in the world, not necessarily of it. Yeah. sorry yeah What do you reckon, Bec? Yeah, I think actually was the thing that I was thinking of while you were talking, which is if God's made you and he's made you a certain way and he wants you to be holy,
00:30:48
Speaker
But he also doesn't want you to like retreat from the world where you're like, hey, all I do is I just go to church and I just read my Bible and I never see any non-Christians and I never listen to anything and I never read anything that isn't anything else.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yes, yeah yeah, yeah. You think, isn't that beautiful? You're like, oh, if you you really love words and you really love visuals and you really love music, you can be in those spaces yes with other people who might not know God and really love music and they can see you there you where you're like, hey, I don't give myself complete and utter freedom to do everything.
00:31:19
Speaker
And yet within those boundaries, like there's this freedom and joy that they don't have. Yeah. And so there's just that other element as well of like, yeah.
00:31:32
Speaker
So last question. Can we have empty pleasures then? If God makes everything holy and for his glory. Is it more a Roman thing where we need to consider who might be weaker than us and how do we wrestle with this?
00:31:49
Speaker
Bec, your hand went up. My literal hand went up. My only point that I would like to say is you want to consider what is it that is making you guilty? Like is it conviction?
00:32:04
Speaker
Like is God whispering to you being like, is this really what you should be doing? Or is this like accusation or the devil being like, you're a terrible person you and that's yeah the thing I want to throw in there.
00:32:18
Speaker
oh Yeah, I mean this conversation has definitely convicted me about a program I've been watching as a guilty pleasure when I wanted to not think and that legitimately I was watching it by myself the other night And my husband came out and I actually was like, I want to fast forward. I don't want him to hear me.
00:32:40
Speaker
Which a pretty good time. You probably shouldn't be doing something. You should trying to hide it.
00:32:46
Speaker
I won't name the trash, but it was trash. I think I probably have to stop, sadly. Oh, yeah, that's all right. Yeah. Also good, though. It's a good thing to stop because actually isn't bringing any glory or edifying me in any way.
00:33:06
Speaker
And I cannot claim it's giving my brain a rest.
00:33:10
Speaker
yeah I think you have to evaluate how these pleasures are impacting you personally. Yeah. And so, you know, Brit, that program, unfortunately, is causing literally a bit of guilt in your life.
00:33:23
Speaker
Or like, you know, you're kind of thinking a bit about how, oh, this may not be appropriate. i I don't think this person would approve. And it's, I think that's where it's like, oh what are you trying to hide? You're not hiding that from God.
00:33:37
Speaker
i Yeah. So I guess that, you know, you do actually have to have a personal conviction. In terms of the Romans consideration, yeah if you look at 1 Corinthians 8 as well, it talks about food sacrificed to idols.
00:33:51
Speaker
So this is amongst Gentiles. It's not between Jews and Gentiles, but it talks a bit about people we need to consider whether eating or not eating is going to impact the people around us. so He says not everyone has the knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that they'll eat sacrificial food.
00:34:08
Speaker
They think have been sacrificed to God. And since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. So they're actually thinking, oh, this is actually something that is sacrificed. to like This is something that is to another God. And I'm actually...
00:34:22
Speaker
They have a guilty – like, there's guilt around it. um might not be putting that very well. But it says, but food does not bring us near to God. We are no worse if we do not eat and no better if we do.
00:34:35
Speaker
So it's thinking about how do we use these things. And if watching that show is actually going to cause someone else to stumble by, like, recommending it or if we are – reading things that potentially someone else might not find help. We're drinking in the presence of someone else who actually finds that really unhelpful.
00:34:56
Speaker
Whether you drink or not drink, it's neither ha here nor there in terms of your godliness, but it is for that person. So I think as well, we do get inward convictions.
00:35:07
Speaker
Sometimes we're ignorant to the people around us and that's just ignorance in terms of we might not know that that causes someone to stumble. But we do need to be mindful about how we engage in things that could impact another person's faith in themselves.
00:35:24
Speaker
I don't think I've explained that very well. No, that's a great explanation. Yeah. I think it's true and i I feel like this is always what I end up harping on about but it also is something in terms of being in community. you There's an element of having that inward conviction ourselves but almost having that conviction amongst one another, like iron sharpening iron.
00:35:49
Speaker
And, you know, for that person I said, here's the show I really like and they say, actually, it's unhelpful for me. It makes me have to think, okay, actually, is this unhelpful for me? Because I think good on them for saying that, right?
00:36:02
Speaker
absolutely. Saying, oh, no, sorry, i don't i just this is this is my reasoning. And they're not saying you shouldn't watch that. They're saying this is my own conviction in regards to this thing you're talking about.
00:36:15
Speaker
and this is what me and my friends have talked about, but it makes me then have to consider, is this right before God for me? Is this an interest that I should give up? And for me, I was like, I personally don't find this show affects me, but I would be mindful of who I talk to about it, not because I'm trying to hide it, but because I'm trying to be conscious of other people.
00:36:38
Speaker
And in the past, my husband's been quite a good barometer for me in terms of saying to me, do you think that's a good thing for you to be watching? Yeah. And not because it's causing him to stumble because if he, well, he wouldn't want to watch it, so it's not like he's going to sit down.
00:36:53
Speaker
But it has made me think, and there have been things over the years that I've gone, yeah, no, you're right, like this isn't helpful for me. It's not something i need to invest my time in, and I've stopped doing them.
00:37:05
Speaker
But you kind of need to be in community as well as thinking for yourself in order to work some of this stuff out. Yeah. there's also a means in which we need to look different from the world as well. So if so say like a new Christian's come along, they're trying to figure out what it looks like to be a Christian and we're filling our head with all the secular stuff and they're like it's really hard.
00:37:28
Speaker
They go, oh, okay, we don't look anything. can be a Christian. I can still do all these things. I i could still be in this perhaps relationship that you know is is leading to to sin and temptation or something like that. you can If we're not living in a way that actually experiments that that we don't want to, and we want to make sure that we are mindful of what we're engaging with. We actually want to pursue holiness.
00:37:52
Speaker
Sometimes what we're consuming and our more vain interests, which we can absolutely enjoy. um with pleasure can actually lead, so but particularly we think about non-Christians, new Christians, but yeah to to think that it's totally okay to still be in and of the world.
00:38:08
Speaker
And so I think it's, yeah, it is really important to be in community like what Britt said and to think about the people around us and their experiences, and share your experiences, think about it how is this helpful, how is it how is it potentially harmful and, yeah, what do you guys think, how does this impact you?
00:38:25
Speaker
And, yeah, we can only do that in community. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's really helpful, Brooke. Are we ready for summary? Summary. Bec loves this. Bec does love it and know it. I think essentially it's okay to have interests and there's pleasures that we've been given to enjoy, often independent to ourselves.
00:38:53
Speaker
However, ultimately we need to remember where these gifts come from. and who is the maker of the world, and that our identity is in Christ, not in these things. And we should carefully examine what we are interested in and consider if we are right before God with those things.
00:39:09
Speaker
And if we're not sure, we should actually be in community to discuss that and kind of work it out amongst others and ask other people, what do you think? This is what I'm doing. And if we're too embarrassed to tell other people, then probably it's a good sign that maybe it's worth considering.
00:39:26
Speaker
And Christianity is about sacrifice. However, it's not about having no interests outside of Jesus because they are all gifts from God. Anything to add to that?
00:39:38
Speaker
and i love your spiritual gifts. Wonderful. Do you take notes? Seriously? It's magic every time. It's beautiful. Well, I'm hoping, based on your feedback, this is what I do when I'm with clients, but we'll see.
00:39:52
Speaker
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00:40:07
Speaker
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00:40:18
Speaker
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