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Episode 56 - The 1945 World Series- The World's Worst Series
33 Plays1 month ago
We cover one of the worst world series of all time in terms of talent on the field as the Tigers best the Cubs in 7 games and win their second championship and first since 1935.
First Impressions of ABS?
Should CC's number be retired?
How about Beltran?
Answers to all this and more on the latest episode of Championship or Bust!
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Transcript
Introduction: Hal Neuhauser's Million-Dollar Quote
00:00:03
Speaker
As Hal Neuhauser would say, no one is worth $1 million. dollars But if one kid is worth that, it's this kid. And coming up, we'll tell you who that quote is referring to.
1945 Championship Robust Episode Introduction
00:00:13
Speaker
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the 1945 episode of Championship Robust with Max, Zach, and Josh. Baseball season is now in full swing. The Yankees have lost two games in a row. Good to see us all in April form. Let's get back in time to 1945.
Criticism of Boone's Game Decisions
00:00:28
Speaker
Josh, hit it.
00:00:29
Speaker
I mean, Boone is definitely in you know midseason form putting in Randall Grichuk into a game and him going 0-3 with three strikeouts. It checks out. Yeah, it's all right. you know Blown games with Camille Duvall. Yeah, they they they have the best record in the American League, or at least in the American League East. But you know Boone still just likes to throw games away.
00:00:47
Speaker
yeah and And people go, but it's April, guys. No one cares. It's like, yeah. And then you lose a division by one game. and and And then you go, well, maybe those games back in April counted.
1945 World Series Highlights
00:00:56
Speaker
Wow. They all count the same, boys. Josh wants to start with current events, huh? going hundred I just, you know, Mike mike had to set me off real early here.
00:01:04
Speaker
Yeah, it triggered you. My bad. Anyway, the 1945 World Series. The Detroit Tigers versus the Chicago Cubs. The Tigers won the American League with a record of eighty eight and sixty five winning the league by one and a half games, and the Cubs won the National League with a record of ninety eight and fifty six winning by three games.
00:01:24
Speaker
Although the major fighting in World War II had ended at this time, many of the players were still in military service, and the league still used wartime home field sites, the 3-4 instead of This series was known to be one of the worst series ever as far as talent on the field, and it was joked that neither team was good enough to win.
00:01:47
Speaker
So, game one in Detroit. So the visiting Cubs strike first in the first inning. With two outs and runners on the corners, a wild pitch that let the first run of the game score. An intentional walk was followed by Bill Nicholson's two-run double. Mickey Livingston followed it up with an RBI single to make it 4-0. In the third, Cubs would tack on two more. After a leadoff double by Phil Cabaret, sorry, after leadoff double, Phil Cabaret singled in a run and scored on Andy Pafko's double.
00:02:11
Speaker
Mickey Livingston drove in Pafko with the second RBI of the day, making it 7-0. In the seventh, Cabaret hit solo shot, they added to the lead. Papco followed that with a single, steals second, getting a third on a pass ball and scoring on Nicholson's single.
00:02:24
Speaker
On the other side of the ball, Cubs ace Hank Bowery pitched a complete game shutout, despite allowing 12 base runners, 6 hits, and 6 walks. But the Cubs would take game 1, 9-0.
Curse of the Billy Goat
00:02:34
Speaker
yeah but the cubs would take game one nine to nothing Game two, Son of Cubs strike first yet again in the top of the fourth inning when Phil Cabaret doubled, then scored a Bill Nicholson single. In the bottom the fifth, after 13 innings without scoring a run, the Tigers finally did the thing.
00:02:52
Speaker
With two outs, the Tigers got a single and a walk before Doc Kramer's RBI single tied the game. Hank Greenberg followed up with a three-run blast put the Tigers up 4-1. Rosal Trucks would finish a complete game for the Tigers, allowing just one run to tie the series at one.
00:03:06
Speaker
Game three, so the Cubs opened the scoring yet again in the fourth, thanks to RBI singles from Bill Nicholson and Roy Hughes. They had another in the seventh when Mickey Livingston doubled, moved the third on a ground out, and scored on a sack fly. Claude Peseau threw a one-hit complete game shutout for the Cubs in a three to nothing victory, taking 2-1 series Game four, move to Chicago, where the Tigers would score first and a top and a fourth. One out walk followed by a single set up Hank Greenberg's RBI single and Roy Cullenbine's RBI double that chased starter from the game. An intentional walk loaded the bases for a field of choice ground ball and scored another run. Paul Richards' RBI single, scoring the fourth run of the inning.
00:03:41
Speaker
Cubs would strike in the bottom of sixth when Don Johnson tripled, scored on a ground out, but that was all they could get on Dizzy Trout, who completed the game, giving up one run on five hits. The Tigers tying the series two. Now, if you did not know, this game was incredibly famous for Chicago because this is the origin of the curse of the Billy Goats.
00:03:59
Speaker
Yes, it is. Yes. So the owner of the Billy Goat Tavern, William Sianis, brought his pet goat Murphy to Wrigley Field. And Murphy was pissing the other fans off.
00:04:10
Speaker
So they asked him to leave. And Sianis allegedly declared, Them Cubs, they ain't gonna win no more. And Sianus' family even claims that he dispatched a telegram to the team owner that read, you were going to lose this World Series and you were never going to win another World Series again.
00:04:27
Speaker
Because you insulted my goat. And that curse lasted 71 years.
Tigers Win: World Series Game 5-7
00:04:32
Speaker
Yay. Until Can't wait alert. later. Awesome. this is fun yes a hundred and eight years later awesome So, Game 5.
00:04:44
Speaker
Tigers would strike first in the top of the third, taking 1-0 lead in Doc Kramer's sack fly, but they gave that run right back bottom inning when Hank Bowery doubled with two outs scored on Sanhack single. In the top sixth, Kramer led off with a double and scored on Hank Greenberg's double to take the lead again. At their single, Rudy York singled in a run and chased a starter from the game. An intentional walk loaded the bases for pitcher Hal Neuhauser who drew a walk adding to the lead. Skeeter-Webb's ground out, pushed across the fourth run of the inning. In the top of the seventh, Jimmy Atlus sacked Fly, made it 6-1 Tigers. In the bottom seventh, the Cubs would finally strike back.
00:05:12
Speaker
Fielders' choice and Mickey Livingston's ground rule double, pushed across two runs. In the top of the ninth, the Tigers get those runs back on Roy Cullenbine's two-run double, making it 8-3. the bottom of the inning, the Cubs would try to rally. Phil Cavarrett doubled to lead off and score on Nicholson single, that's all they could get. Hal Newhouser would finish the game, giving up four runs on seven hits in the eight to four win, putting the Tigers 1-1 away from championship.
World Series Perception: An Office Picnic
00:05:33
Speaker
Game six, so the Tigers strike first in the top of the second on a bases-loaded walk. In the bottom of the fifth, the Cubs would load the bases for themselves for Stan Hack, single in two runs, take a 2-1 lead. A walk-loaded the bases again for Phil Calverette, the single in two more runs.
00:05:46
Speaker
In the sixth, the Cubs would score on back-to-back doubles from Mickey Liddingson and Roy Hughes, making it 5-1. In the top of the seventh, the Tigers got two got two out RBI single from Roy Columbine and Rude York to make it five to three But gave those runs right back in the bottom the inning on a bases-loaded walk and an RBI single from Roy Hughes. In the top of the eighth, after a leadoff walk and a double, an error allowed a run to score. Eddie Mayo's RBI single scored another, and a sack fly from Don Kramer got the Tigers within one before Hank Greenberg tied the game with a solo shot. And this game would stay tied all the way into extras to the bottom of the 12th inning.
00:06:20
Speaker
Frank Sicori singled, and his pinch runner, Bill Schuster, came around to score the winning run on Stan Hack's walk-off double to force 7. Game 7.
00:06:30
Speaker
game seven so let's tire So the Cubs send an already overworked Hank Bowery to start. He lasted three batters. Three guys singled. The last one scoring run.
00:06:43
Speaker
Paul Derringer entered the game and with one out, intentionally walked the bases loaded. With two outs, Jimmy Outlaw drew a walk, score another run before Paul Richards cleared the bases with a three-run double, making it 5-0 in the top of the first.
00:06:56
Speaker
In the bottom inning, the Cubs would get one run back on Phil Calverette's RBI single, but the Tigers got that back in the top
Virgil Trucks: Fan Dedication
00:07:01
Speaker
of the second when a two-out rally produces a bases loaded walk. In the bottom of the fourth, Cavret singled and scored on Andy Palfko's triple. In the top of the seventh, the Tigers got that back on Paul Richards' two-out RBI double. Tigers would add two more in the eighth when Skeeter Webb drew a leadoff walk and scored on Andy Mayo's double. Mayo moved to third on a ground out and scored on a sack fly.
00:07:20
Speaker
In the bottom of the inning, the Cubs got a run back on Bill Richardson's RBI double, making it 9-3 Tigers. Hal Neuhauser would finish the game for the Tigers, giving up three runs on 10 hits, but doesn't matter because the Tigers' offense was just that much better. Tigers winning the World Series, winning their first ever Game 7. Wow.
00:07:39
Speaker
I didn't want to cut you off when you were talking before about um how neither team was good enough to win. There was a sports writer, Frank Graham, who had a quote that I think was awesome. He said that this World Series is the fat men versus the tall men at the office picnic.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah. Now, just to put in the words of how – um What an indictment that quote actually is. Frank Graham is known for being like such a classy dude to the point where there was a dinner honoring him and a bunch of players actually went to honor a sports writer.
00:08:12
Speaker
You know the players actually like this guy and Melot um at the time he was a manager of the Giants. Another reporter asked him, like, can you like roast them a little bit? Like I'm using 21st century terminology, but they basically asked him to roast them like as a joke.
00:08:27
Speaker
And he said, damn it, I just can't. I got to tell the truth. Frank Graham is the nicest, kindest, gentlest, finest, sweetest and most wonderful person I ever met in my life. And
Hal Neuhauser: Hall of Fame Debate
00:08:36
Speaker
he's saying the fat men versus the tall men in the office at the picnic.
00:08:41
Speaker
Wow. That's what he thought this series was. So that's when you know it's bad. Um, But the cool thing about that is that there are not a lot of Hall of Famers today, and there's not a lot of is he a Hall of Famers either. We do have one new Hall of Famer, which we'll get to. I just wanted to shout out a couple things that I noticed with this series. First of all, I don't remember there being a time. There might have been um where it was MVP versus MVP.
00:09:04
Speaker
Phil Cabaretta was the NL MVP. going up against Hal Neuhauser, the AL MVP. Just kind of something interesting there. I also wanted to shout out a guy named Virgil Trucks real quick. Now, Virgil Trucks is not a Hall of Famer. He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, but he was a damn good pitcher. And the reason why I'm shouting him out is because a lot of modern people might know who he is, because if you collected autographs at any point in your life, I guarantee you have a Virgil Trucks autograph somewhere in your album somewhere. He was the nicest person through the mail. Anything you sent him, no matter how many times you sent it, he would sign whatever you gave him. You could put 20 cards in that envelope and he would sign it and send it back to you. He passed away in 2013, but he was signing mail through you know age 95.
00:09:54
Speaker
you know giving back to fans like that. And this is somebody who you know didn't make a lot of money in the you know in his playing career, could have easily charged the signings. This a two-time All-Star who had a top five MVP finish.
00:10:06
Speaker
He could have gone around and done shows for 20, 30 bucks a pop, traveled and made money, but he gave back to the fans for free constantly. So I just wanted to shout out Virgil Chucks. I love it again. We love guys like thats all times um that. Zach would not like him, though. He did serve in the Navy did he serve in 1944. Yes, he did. hate just see it um
Neuhauser's Scouting Legacy
00:10:27
Speaker
So this was his age 28 season. he didn't He wasn't really Virgil Trucks yet at any point. like He had a couple four war seasons at that point. um And he had a couple six war seasons and won seven.
00:10:39
Speaker
um But, you know, he had a 177, 135 win-loss record, a 3.39 career ERA, a 117 ERA plus for 17 seasons. That's a damn good pitcher. That's a good career. Very respectable career.
00:10:51
Speaker
Not a Hall of Famer, but just wanted to shout him out because, you know, the personal connection there. um We covered Phil Cavarretta. There's actually no um Hall of Famers on the Tiger side again. ah Billy Pierce has gotten talked about in the past. He's seven-time All-Star, mainly with the White Sox. um Only had one top five MVP finish and finished fifth. This came before Cy Young voting.
00:11:16
Speaker
Had a career 3.27 ERA and a 50 war. He's probably not quite there to really have a full debate on him. ah But he did have a couple veterans committee appearances recently. So that is a name that might come up again when we do that era, when we do the Hall of Fame voting. Outside of that, we have the winning tigers. So we have a ending world series and a beginning world series. So it's the last world series for Hank Greenberg.
00:11:46
Speaker
It's his fourth and final one. And he retires as a two time world series champ, about a three Oh four in the series when seven for 23 with two dingers, seven runs batted in and six walks.
00:11:56
Speaker
So we got on base a lot. um And our new person is someone we've mentioned a couple times already. Hal Neuhauser. So welcome Championship Robust, Hal Neuhauser. In this series, he went 2-1 with a 6.1 ERA, giving up 14 earned runs in 20 innings. ah e That's not the best introduction for him, admittedly, but
Automated Ball-Strike System Discussion
00:12:15
Speaker
I'm going to ask the question anyway. Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:12:17
Speaker
He was elected by a Veterans Committee in 1992, so it did take a while, but he peaked at 42.8% on the writer's vote in his last year on the ballot. He was a six-time All-Star and a two-time MVP as a pitcher for the Tigers and the Cleveland Indians at the time. He won MVP in 1944 and 1945, so the year we're covering this. And he won the Triple Crown this year as well. The following year, he finished second in MVP voting. He led the league in war three times, wins four times, ERA twice, complete games twice, strikeouts twice, and whip once, finished his career with 207 150 win-loss record,
00:12:53
Speaker
3.06 ERA, 130 ERA plus, just under 1,800 strikeouts, and a 60 war. What do we think? Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:13:05
Speaker
ah Yes. Yes, absolutely. I was expecting... you i'm so I'm happy. I expected a little more resistance, but you guys are smart. Good job.
00:13:16
Speaker
This was good. um I have him on the border between level 1 and level 2. I actually have him as my highest... player outside level two, like on on the top of level one. But i can definitely see an argument for being level two with two MVPs and triple crown. And the triple crown sells it. Yeah, I mean, he won a triple crown, two MVPs, you know, which is basically Cy Young's yeah even higher, maybe even back then. Because they're also playing against the hitters.
00:13:44
Speaker
um And, you know, second place vision of the year after that. And then the years outside of that were respectable. They were nothing incredible. but they were They were definitely respectable. And then the year he finished second in MVP voting, he finished behind Ted Williams. So really, was the highest pitcher. The next highest pitcher was Bob Feller, who finished sixth. He would have won a third Cy Young there.
00:14:06
Speaker
He would have had three in a row, which we're talking about with Scoobull. I mean, 200 wins alone? yeah oh i don't know I don't know about that one, buddy. No, I'm saying when we did the preseason preview, I mean, we were saying that a school wins three in a row.
00:14:21
Speaker
He's a Hall of Famer. Hal would have won three in a row if the award existed. Yep. Yeah. I'm confused how it took so long. I don't know. You're talking almost 40 years after retirement that he got in.
00:14:33
Speaker
I think the real thing for him is the win-loss record. At the time, I think that mattered way, way, way too much in the 1960s. But you lead the league in wins four times.
00:14:45
Speaker
And I guess the other case is that he only had seven-year peak where he had more than 10 wins in a season, and it was just sandwiched by a lot of mediocrity.
00:14:55
Speaker
i don't know. It's...
00:15:00
Speaker
I was going to say, it's funny you say that because I'm looking at it from the perspective of pitchers don't even approach 200 wins anymore. Like that's really cool and respectable that it got 200 wins. Yeah.
00:15:11
Speaker
At the time it was more common, but yeah I think, you know, we didn't have a lot of the advanced SN, like people weren't looking at their whip. People weren't looking really even at ERA, but he had two seasons with an ERA under two.
00:15:23
Speaker
Hey, Jacob DeGrom level right there. Yeah. it just We're looking at a clear-cut Hall of Famer that took way, way, way too long. But what's fitting is that the same year he got in, 1992, so after he retired, he was a scout for um Baltimore.
00:15:43
Speaker
And then he retired and went to work at a bank for 20 years. A bank? Then he came back to scout the Astros, and he was scouting athletes for the 1992 Major League Baseball draft.
00:15:56
Speaker
Oh, yes. and You guys have heard the story. I know the story. But for anyone who hasn't, he called for the Astros to take Derek Jeter. And the quote that I had in my intro of no one's worth a million dollars, but if one kid's worth it, it's this kid.
00:16:12
Speaker
was referring to Derek Jeter, and he told the Astros pay whatever Jeter wants because he's a future superstar. You guys know who the Astros picked instead? I forgot, but i know it's like a bust, right? I don't remember.
00:16:25
Speaker
it's a former It's a Yankee that you guys know. It's not a Yankee player, but he had relevance to the Yankees for a little bit. Phil Nevin. Oh, yes. Yeah, yes. Who was an all-star. He beat the all-star game once in 2001 in his age 30 season. He was a number one pick in the 1992 draft.
00:16:45
Speaker
And so after Newhauser called for Jeter and up. was a better player than he was a third base coach. Yeah. Yeah. So. Slowest guy in the team. Guy with a gun. He has the ball. You're not around the third base. Go, go, go.
00:17:03
Speaker
Roman Anthony ain't out the field, man. So when the Astros picked Nevin instead, the Yankees obviously drafted Jeter sixth and the rest is history.
00:17:14
Speaker
Hal Newhouser quit. yeah And that was the end of his 50-year run in Major League Baseball. Did he go back to the bank after that? no I probably did.
00:17:25
Speaker
I mean, at that point in his life, he had to be... He died six years later. He was 71. I think he was probably done at that point. Probably done, yeah. But yeah, that's what ended his career in Major League Baseball was that they didn't take Jeter.
00:17:40
Speaker
I cannot believe the guy's working at a bank after a Hall of Fame-worthy career. That's insane. That's awesome. That's little more reason why I want to shout out guys like Virgil Trucks because that's what people had to do.
00:17:52
Speaker
They to make money somehow. ah But yeah, that's the life of Hal Neuhauser. And that's all we got for is he a Hall of Famer today. So um we can go right into current events unless guys have anything else on here.
00:18:03
Speaker
No, for sure. We can save the retired number debate for last because I think that's where we'll spend a lot of time. Yeah. That was a good one you had. But I wanted to just briefly get your initial reaction on ABS. Obviously, it's been um implemented for about two weeks now. What do we, you know, high level? What are we feeling?
00:18:23
Speaker
I feel like Josh is going to want this one. I'll let him get it. Josh, can you go ahead. how How do I feel? You know, ah I think it's great.
00:18:34
Speaker
And I think that it should be a great metric for the umpire, for the umpires, where if the league should be, the league honestly should be using the this as a report card.
00:18:47
Speaker
Or like if you're blowing call after call after call, then it's like, youre get out, like you're done. I mean, it really should be that. I mean, I know they're not going do that. because Manfred's got nothing between his legs. But ah that's what they should be using it as, and I'm sure the Empire Union would fight it anyway. But, you know, you can't be getting 10 Coles overturned you know in a game and stuff like that. I mean...
00:19:16
Speaker
Can we talk about C.P. Buckner, please? I was going say, Buckner game was brutal. Dude blows call after call after call after call behind home plate. And in the very next game, there's a ball that's thrown away at first base. And Buckner goes, yeah, he didn't touch first base. And they show the replay, and Buckner's not even looking at the play.
00:19:38
Speaker
He's watching the ball go sailing behind home plate. It's like, how could you confidently make such a stupid call like that? I don't know. Thank God for instant replays. And the guy is known. like Before he was, the guy was known for being atrocious at his job.
00:19:54
Speaker
Like, i dude, the I mean, the Empire Union must be like, these guys must have the greatest lawyers the world has ever seen. They must. I mean, I have no other explanation. Is there a small part of either one of you that that felt a little bad for CB Buckner? Oh, not at all. Me neither. No, no.
00:20:11
Speaker
Because you know what other guys are doing? I like, I mean, John Boyd's already poing posting stuff where like, hey, you know, this guy was challenged early in the game. Say he's missing the low fastball. ah he He's then making adjustments. And that's awesome to see mid-game and that umpires can actually do that. You know I didn't think they were that skilled. ah um For guys to be able to adjust is awesome. and then you got guys like CB who can't, who just can't.
00:20:34
Speaker
I would have felt a little bit bad until the first base thing happened. then Then I don't feel bad anymore. I mean, that throws all the feeling bad out the window when you do something that ridiculously stupid. Like if anything, just call them safe and not have the issue.
00:20:50
Speaker
I don't understand how you could possibly make a statement, make make a call like that. Like you can get away a lot more with, you know, he touched the bag and I'm just going to pretend like, you know, even though I didn't see it, it's more likely to, you have more plausible deniability with him touching the bag than not touching the bag. Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing is that the chances of him missing first base are so low. Right. To confidently make a call of a play you're not even looking at is insane.
00:21:17
Speaker
And the announcers called him right out. Oh, as they should. Yeah. As they should. Yeah. um But I do overall like it. I think we, I think there needs to be work done. was going to say, I wanted to bring up some of that. i what do you think about like ninth inning, everything, not everything, but you know, they can challenge again in the ninth inning, sort of like an NFL, like two minute rule thing. Cause I think some of that might come into play when teams run out of challenges.
00:21:45
Speaker
I like the idea, but I'm also, the more I'm watching, the more I'm actually liking the experience of having to strategically use the challenges. Even though I understand the argument of, you know, we should get the calls right regardless. I understand that, but I like the idea of people not just wasting them willy-nilly.
00:22:02
Speaker
I think you should call, can have your calls reset in the ninth inning. Yeah, personally, I agree with that. But i Mike, I get what you're saying, though, too, because you got to have guys. I mean, we were a joking last night. Guys like Jazz should not be challenging. Like, just take the bad calls if you're going to challenge pitches like that egregious.
00:22:18
Speaker
That's why I think you. that That's a coaching thing because Boone will never tell Jazz, hey, you know, maybe you should stop challenging it because, you know, and Jazz is going to like, I'm going to challenge whatever I want. And then you lose all your challenges because you got one guy in your lineup that thinks he's smarter everybody else.
00:22:33
Speaker
But that's why I kind of like that because it makes the strategy more important. I actually, i didn't think I would feel that way, but the more I'm watching, the more I do think that because I'm on the flip side, you're seeing players challenge strike calls that are right down the middle of the plate and challenging balls to overturn them that are 10 feet off the zone.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah. Like we can't have that either. We can't just be wasting challenges. So I, I don't like necessarily the idea of giving the unlimited challenges. I think the players will just, i don't think I don't think two is enough.
00:23:05
Speaker
No, two is not enough, and then maybe the ninth inning. I think five, and then if you have less than... If you have one or less, you should get two in the ninth inning. Yeah, or something like that, or just maybe every close call gets evaluated. Games still can't be decided in the eighth and ninth inning you know when
Commissioner Manfred's Legacy
00:23:22
Speaker
the game's on the line because you ran out of challenges.
00:23:25
Speaker
And umpire's going to make another bad call. it's like that That is just the exact opposite of the spirit of the reason why they're doing it. What if we do a dynamic challenge process where let's say you start with two and let's say in the third inning jazz challenges one and he gets it wrong because he always does.
00:23:44
Speaker
We're down to one challenge. Then Austin Wells comes up, oh challenges it wrong. Somehow he's right. He gets a challenge back. Ooh, I like that. would be okay with that. I like that. So let's say at that point, you can have an unlimited amount from there, but you better get them right.
00:24:02
Speaker
I like that. I would take that one step further. ah Let's split them up. Offensive and defensive. Yeah. Yeah. Once you're out, you're out.
00:24:13
Speaker
You cannot, you can't gain again. But if you're getting them right, here's another freebie. Yeah. Cause the Yankees are at one point were perfect for challenges until jazz and Austin will have started challenging.
00:24:24
Speaker
Right. And then I think at a certain point, if you do that, the locker room will take care of itself when guys like jazz. Yes. You're right. um calls Or Ben Rice, honestly, who I like. Yeah. I've been making awful challenge calls.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. You're right because it puts it more in the player's hands in a more strategic aspect. be Like, hey, you know, chill. Like, you'd rather have more challenges for honestly, you'd rather have them for a judge or somebody that's hitting well. Like, why are you going to take a challenge if you're batting 120? You know what mean? I mean, the only thing for judges that judge is that judges strike is just so naturally big. Yeah. It might be tough for him to even challenge anything.
00:24:58
Speaker
But my point, like if you're if you're in a slump, like as a player, i if I'm in a slump and I'm playing, I wouldn't challenge something because I know my guys probably need it more than I do. that You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:10
Speaker
I can get behind that. Yeah. But that's why I think if you do it that way, it's it's still team, it's still strategy and you're rewarding the correct calls. I like that. And not just giving them back when you waste them. Yeah.
00:25:22
Speaker
I think there definitely has to be some workshopping done with the amount given to each team and and all that stuff and and replenishing them. And even some of the the physical stuff, which we were talking about off pod too, like Sherman, I agree with Sherman. He was saying the, um,
00:25:35
Speaker
I think more than like a seam of the ball has to be in the strike zone when you call it. yeah i don't I'm not a huge fan of these ones where it's like, oh, it wasn't a strike or it was a strike by, you know, less than a tenth of an inch. yeah It's like i I just don't trust the cameras that they're using to be that accurate.
00:25:52
Speaker
So what if we say it has to be the opposite call has to be a half of a half an inch on either side? Yeah, I like that. Yes, I agree. All right. No, I just think in general, you have to have half an inch of the bowl in the strike zone for it to count. Yeah.
00:26:08
Speaker
Because I agree. Because, you know, they're overturned the ones where it's like the seam is just touching the strike zone. And at that point, it it feels really gimmicky. Yeah. but Yeah. No, that's good. i um Overall, obviously, big positive. um Oh, for sure. Yeah.
00:26:25
Speaker
So what do we think this does for Manfred's legacy? Ha ha. um Ask me again in a year. i was going that, yeah. And i like I said, I've been on record that i I'm not necessarily blaming Manfred for a lockout. I know people do.
Current Baseball Events
00:26:39
Speaker
At the end of the day, he's the commissioner's puppet. It's the commissioner's not – sorry, it's the owner's pocket.
00:26:44
Speaker
he It's the owner's, not the commissioner. And I will die on that hill. No, you're right. But I agree. I think obviously he's going to take this with the pitch clock and the rule changes and run with it for like all the good things he's done for the sport. But um we'll see how long 27 And I think for every one good thing he does, he does one thing that's bad. you know He had the pitch clock, which I like. Then he called the World Series trophy a piece of metal. I didn't like that. um Now he has this um as opposed to the Ghost Runner, which I didn't like. Oh, true. The Ghost Runner is bad.
00:27:20
Speaker
A broken clock is right twice a day. Yeah.
00:27:25
Speaker
I know you bring this up a lot. Is he the best commissioner in the four majors? Goodell would be my number one. o um Honestly, Goodell's been pretty unproblematic lately. The only thing I don't like that he's doing, and I completely get that he's doing it, as someone who goes to football games to see players on opposite teams come into town, I hate the international games. Yeah, me too, yeah. It's not like I understand from a business sense. It's a no brainer, but I personally can't stand them because, you know, I wait in four years to see JJ Watt and then, oh, just come down just kidding. He's playing in Germany. Thanks like that. That sucks. And it's happened to me before.
00:28:08
Speaker
So that's the one thing I don't like with him. Recently, I think he's been fine. Like he used to be a very – and honestly, we kind of need an iron fist punishment policy sometimes because you see what's happening with Adam Silver. i yes man and um I think we need some of that worked in. Like Kawhi Leonard um just had a thing where his contract was getting like random supplements because he had a fake company that he was an investor in, quote-unquote.
00:28:35
Speaker
There's talks every other week that he's going to get some sort of punishment. They might void his contract. We haven't heard a peep from Adam Silver. We had two people get arrested for gambling investigations.
00:28:46
Speaker
Not a peep. Yeah. What are we doing? Yeah, I speak on that. you know As much as you can say about Manford doing good things. yeah He also had a you know massive scandal under his hands with Class and Trevor Bauer and all that stuff that I think he handled all those like ass.
00:29:03
Speaker
He did, but I still think it's better than, know, I think the way that they immediately handled Class A. was going say, did he handle Class A that I don't think he handled Class A that bad. Yeah, you mean that they were all getting paid the whole time?
00:29:17
Speaker
But the set I don't care they're not comprising integrity of the game. That's fine. yeah Yeah, well, you know, they also had, you know, their star player placing illegal. But I mean, sorry. that herbiter Josh, the NBA put Terry Rozier under federal investigation went said investigation. They didn't put him on leave. they They cleared him of any wrongdoing and let him play.
00:29:38
Speaker
yeah And then he got arrested. I mean, they still paid Class A when he was under federal. I don't care if he's getting paid. I care if he's playing and compromising the integrity of the sport. Like they can pay him fine. He's going to pay it back in legal fees anyway. All right. I don't care if he's getting paid because that would be a union issue. It's, you know, innocent until proven guilty. No issue. yeah But you shouldn't be playing if you're under a federal investigation for gambling.
00:30:04
Speaker
that's That's inexcusable. That should have been a fireable offense on Adam Silver. Yeah, I agree. And Manfred, I don't i can't get quite that far. So i to answer question, Zach, a long-winded explanation, I'd probably have Goodell 1.
00:30:21
Speaker
I'd probably... Josh isn't going to like this. I'd probably have Bettman too. I was going to say, yeah, he's done great with the Olympics stuff. He's done great with the Olympics. He marketed Oveston record amazingly. He handled Four Nations amazingly.
00:30:38
Speaker
um it got to the point where hockey's almost been a model for how to handle, um how to market the sport during big events. It's too bad they can't market their sport. He's the reason why they didn't go to the Olympics in the first place. That's true. I yeah i don't know about that one. You're going to give him a pat on the back for fixing a problem he created. That's kind of ridiculous. Manfred or?
00:31:00
Speaker
Bettman.
00:31:03
Speaker
Josh? Bettman. Okay, so yeah. So you're going Bettman over Manfred. So we agree then. No, no, no, no, no. I said that Bettman is the one that you're going give him a hand, clap on the back for fixing a problem he created. Oh, good. I'm sorry. I misspoke. I was asking who would you say is a better commissioner, Manfred or Bettman?
00:31:22
Speaker
They both suck. Right. yes if i If I'm forced to rank them... yeah I don't know. I think I'm going Goodell, Bettman, Manfred. I think my answer depends on how long this lockout lasts.
00:31:36
Speaker
That's a good point. Because there have been also been lockouts under Bettman. Yes. But it's funny because hockey can market so well when there's certain events going on. The Ovechkin record, they nailed. see so you you so You say that and then every time there's a stadium series game or game in another country, it's like, hey, they're playing in Sweden today. and Everyone's like, what are you talking about? That's what I'm getting to is that it's so selective because every other day of the every other day of the year, they suck at marketing.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah. Like, they pick four days a year to really market the hell out of the sport, and then the other 361, it's like the sport doesn't even matter. I mean, I think they ruined the Winter Classic this year, so. The Florida thing? Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I was dumb. Doing it on January 2nd.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah. So, I don't know.
00:32:26
Speaker
January 2nd is fine. Just don't do it in Florida. Well, yeah. Yeah, but the whole point of it is doing it on the 1st of January. Yes. I get that, but at least it's still the winter. I'd rather that than, you know, why are we doing it in 50 degrees? I'm doing it in Miami because,
00:32:44
Speaker
um That's really – oh, I had a fun stat to throw at you guys too. This is not – I just want you to guess. um how How are Luke Weaver and Devin Williams doing for the Mets? what How do you think? Very often I'm not giving up a single run. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. yep so the How many runs Deval given up?
00:33:01
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. Too many. A lot. Who blew the game last night? Oh, wait. Bednar. Yep. Great that he's been incredibly overworked.
00:33:12
Speaker
He has been very overwrote. Because there's not a single that reliever or in that pen other than Tim Hill that could do anything. I know. i just I don't know how many times the Bats can go cold. like what What are we doing with Austin Wells?
00:33:27
Speaker
Why is he atrocious? I don't know. He needs the chicken parm intervention too. Yeah. And this is before we had Volpe in the lineup. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it wasn't for Rosario, then we got swept by the A's.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, Rosario came up huge. Yeah, ridiculous. Oh, one more thing on ABS I completely forgot. um Josh, have you been to a game yet this year? No.
00:33:53
Speaker
Zach, you have. You went to, right? In Citizens Bank Park, did your home plate umpire's mic work when they said that they were challenging? Oh, hell no. It just comes up on the big screen. Right. That's something I want worked on as well. forgot to mention that. They got to fix that.
00:34:08
Speaker
Because you go to an NFL game and you hear the refs talking. You go to an NBA game, they challenge it, or hockey, when they call a penalty, you hear the refs, you need the refs mics working 100%.
00:34:19
Speaker
one hundred percent Yeah. Because that made the in-person experience less fulfilling. i Agreed. I mean, you can tell what's going on, but still. Yeah. Yeah. ah Can we laugh at the Red Sox? Oh, no, yeah I purposely didn't want to bring that up.
00:34:36
Speaker
Roman Anthony Knobloch?
00:34:40
Speaker
God, I could make a better throw from left field than Roman Anthony. what point you kidding I'm not even kidding, dude. At what point do they start training him second base?
00:34:50
Speaker
I DH him. the First base. Make him make the new David Ortiz. Yeah. He's got a noodle arm.
Rule Changes Debate
00:34:57
Speaker
I can't believe they're chanting sell the team because John Henry is actually a decent owner.
00:35:01
Speaker
Like they don't like him at all because I think they're still mad over the Devers trade during they got back. ah Nothing. I mean, there's probably still mad at the Mookie Betts trade too, we're being honest. Yes. They are still mad at that one. Well, shout out to Mike. He is very, he did not hate that trade at all.
00:35:16
Speaker
Oh, I've said about it in the slightest. Which one? The Mookie Betts trade? The Mookie Betts trade. So Mookie won three hates Tevers, which I can understand. okay But he was very he had no problem with the Mookie Betts trade. He thought it was fine.
00:35:28
Speaker
So he doesn't care that Mookie won three championships in LA with the Dodgers now? he't No. my every Every time they win, I'm like, so how's it going over there? He's totally fine.
00:35:39
Speaker
Okay. He also wants to go win three championships with the Dodgers.
00:35:45
Speaker
they are not land would dog born Yeah, well like he'll play. i Who do we have? JC Ascara? o Yeah, dude, obviously. Yeah, he didn't come in to pinch it in the bottom of the ninth inning. Well, at least we have ice cream on a stick.
00:36:00
Speaker
You know, good point. yeah For sure, dude. They ran out of that. They didn't they didn't make it up either. Yeah, they didn't even do that right. How's a really odd one.
00:36:12
Speaker
Can we also talk about the worst center fielder the world has ever seen, O'Neal Cruz?
00:36:18
Speaker
Single-handedly ruining full Paul Skeens. I cannot believe they gave those hits. I want you to know if Paul Skeens makes it out of the first inning, I beat Antonio last week, but that's okay. Yeah. yeah sure i just i I've never seen anything quite that bad before. No, I feel so bad for Paul Skeens. I think in order to be called an error, it has to hit the glove. and i think Yeah. They need to change that rule.
00:36:42
Speaker
At least Connor Griffin is who he says he is. Speaking of rule changes, Joe Adele's third catch. Oh. Home run or out? Home run.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Would it be? Yes. Yes. I'm on and off. um By rule it is. Yeah. I just don't know if – if you land in the stands – It's one thing.
00:37:06
Speaker
With the ball, I i feel like you got to come back onto the field. I agree. Yeah. So you think it should be an out? You should run? I think it should be home run. We all agree. It be home run. You all agree? Okay, yes.
00:37:20
Speaker
Sorry, I was thinking out for whatever reason. But yeah, I agree it should be home run. Because he's technically playing it when it's out of play. Like if you, if any other, any other sport, if you catch the ball out of bounds, it's not a catch.
00:37:33
Speaker
Right. Right? Like football, you plenty of catches are out of bounds. Right. Basketball, the next possession. Hockey, I guess, would be offside.
00:37:43
Speaker
I don't know. But something. thing I don't know. Either way, if you make the catch and you're not in the field, how could it be a catch?
Yankees Number Retirement Debate
00:37:55
Speaker
Hell of a catch, though. Yeah, I just, you know...
00:38:01
Speaker
I think the thing is, like, because his feet were not on the ground when he made it. It's like football, right? Like, you got to have two feet in. Yeah. even one Even one foot in would be okay, right?
00:38:13
Speaker
Like, if you have a foot on the ground, you make the catch, and you fall in, so be it. But if you're in the air, make the catch, and then fall into the stands completely, i can't, dude. I mean, that's – I don't know about that one.
00:38:25
Speaker
Now let's test consistency here because I was thinking about this one also. So the famous Derek Jeter catch. Not a catch. I agree. Oh, I guess so i guess you'd have to agree with not a catch. i yeah it's That's fine. By rule, it's a catch.
00:38:39
Speaker
It shouldn't be a rule. I agree. By rule, it's a I've never known what's being called a catch, but I don't like the rule. Yeah. I see what you're saying now. Yeah.
00:38:51
Speaker
it's I feel like that's the same thing, though. Yeah, it kind of is. You can't have it both ways. Either it's a catch or it's not, regardless of where you are on the field. As long as you're actually on the field, it's a catch.
00:39:03
Speaker
Yeah. Damn. don't know. just something that came up. I was thinking about it. I was curious where you guys went. we didn't talk I didn't prep you for that one at all. No, you're right, though. That's a good thought.
00:39:16
Speaker
Matthew Schaefer. Let's go. Okay. Sorry. he finally do it? Yeah, he did. Very far behind. Oh, my bad. yeah um yeah if we have the Yeah, go ahead, Jerm. Do you want say something?
00:39:31
Speaker
No, i was going say, I just think it's ridiculous ah that that was a catch. I mean, that's an insane play, though. Oh, it's a great play. And he made three of them. Right, but doesn't the picture look in woman game like... Yeah, that crazy picture where he's standing... You're going to tell me that ain't worth one war, dude?
00:39:49
Speaker
whaty worth wasn't royal He did save the game. He saved the whole game. Won the game by himself. It's one-month-a-game. He caught three home runs. Good point. So here's an indictment on war. He's hitting 320 on the season, had that game, and his war for the season is.2.
00:40:04
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Well, his hitting is pretty bad, but yeah. He's hitting 320 right now, though, and he's.2. All right. Put him in all. yeah or did they did send the They did send the glove for the haul, actually.
00:40:17
Speaker
Oh, I should. should That's cool. that's a cool That's a cool one. the phrase It's funny. I saw they were saying um it's a lot easier to part with a bat than it is with a glove. Now you've got to go wear it in a new glove. That's true. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker
The backup glove, I'm sure, isn't broken in. Yeah. That's funny. how to Do you remember when Joe Adele was supposed to be the next Mike Trout? Yes. Yes. I mean, it turns out he is the next Mike Trout, just Mike Trout in the year 2025.
00:40:47
Speaker
Perfect games, four home run games, and now robbing three home runs in one game. Yeah. Interesting. that that might That might be the new Fernando Tatis, two grand slams in one inning. that just It doesn't happen again.
00:40:59
Speaker
It checks the cool box. It's hard to measure where it would be in a historic sense because, like, how do we know? that What if it has happened and we just, like, have people forget? Yeah. I feel like people probably didn't, but, you know before television and things like that, I feel like, you Things get embellished, but things also could have gotten forgotten very easily. sure.
00:41:21
Speaker
You know, it shows up in the box where as i put out and nothing else. Good point. Which, sure maybe we do need a stat for that. oh God, what would you call that?
00:41:33
Speaker
Run save? Like play-o-meter? Like playo meter? like an unav meter I mean, i guess it goes in a defensive run saved. For sure. I guess. It should. a should, yeah. Yeah.
00:41:45
Speaker
So CC Sabathia was announced while ago now that he was go to have his number retired on September 26th against Baltimore. The Yankees are retiring it. And um I bought tickets immediately. I'm very excited to be going, but i was thinking about it and I'm,
00:42:02
Speaker
I'm debating. Does he deserve to have it? Does he deserve to have the number retired? So this is the resume for just the Yankees only with CeCe Sabathia. And then we'll follow it up with the other number retiree. 11 seasons with the Yankees, 29.4 war, record, which is the most wins in Yankee history.
00:42:24
Speaker
3.81 ERA, 1,700 strikeouts, which is fourth in Yankee history, one ring, ALCS MVP, one third-place Cy Young finish, two fourth-place Cy Young finishes, and three All-Star teams.
00:42:38
Speaker
Now, I feel like CeCe means more than what that resume says.
00:42:46
Speaker
But... Agreed. yeah But the resume itself, compared to other Yankees... I don't know. i think he's Monument Park worthy for sure.
00:42:58
Speaker
because he's in the Hall Fame. we're Retiring the number? Like, when we think about guys who don't have the number retired, Dave Winfield obviously had issues with George Steinbrenner. Dave Winfield doesn't have the number retired. Dave Winfield has, like, eight All-Star games with the Yankees.
00:43:13
Speaker
Yeah. It does feel weird. But still. but no Yeah, it does feel weird because of especially they've opened the floodgates now with the Paul O'Neills of the world and stuff like that.
00:43:27
Speaker
Paul O'Neill should not had his number retired As much as everybody likes Paul O'Neill, doesn't deserve to be in it. I love Paul O'Neill. Put a microphone next to his name in Monument Park. Done. Sure. we don't We don't need – I feel like at a certain point, like how many numbers are we going to have retired? Oh, exactly.
00:43:43
Speaker
So many. like If we ran through it, I'll pull it up. But I think, Mike, what makes it you know really close to the line of me wanting him to CC to get in is because you said he's top five in all-time strikeouts with the Yankees, right? So that's...
00:43:58
Speaker
That's significant. Right. And he's top 10 in wins all time, I think you said too? Or war, was it? He's 10th all time in wins. He's not top 10 in war. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like that's significant enough, but it's like borderline for me. It just feels kind of weird.
00:44:13
Speaker
right I feel like you mean even if you want to Cy Young with the Yankees, I think that would have been more... i would have been more like no doubt. Yeah. I'm happy it happened. I'm i'm pleasantly surprised that it happened.
00:44:26
Speaker
ah But... I don't know. I know. If I pull up the pitching career, let's see. The strikeout leaders are this, wherever I can find it. Andy Pettis 1, Whitey Ford's 2, Ron Guidry's 3, CeCe's 4.
00:44:44
Speaker
The problem is that 5, 6, 7, and 8 don't have the numbers retired either. ah i I would like to make a point here. I think that if this was not the New York Yankees we were talking about, I don't anyone would bat an eye about this.
00:45:01
Speaker
Now, can I throw a name out there, you guys? A guy we've talked about before. got Lefty Gomez. one um a Played 13 years with the Yankees. Out of 14 years, he pitched one game in Washington. Everything else was with the Yankees.
00:45:17
Speaker
He had two top five MVP finishes with the Yankees, won five titles with the Yankees, and won two triple crowns with the Yankees, and does not have his number retired. Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. Who did he piss off?
00:45:30
Speaker
I don't know. There's have to be some story there. Like, what am I missing here? Like, Lefty Gomes, we've debated him. We did, is he a Hall of Famer? He was an easy yes. He was a pretty much a Yankee lifer beyond one game.
00:45:43
Speaker
I wonder if that one game had something to do with it. But it's weird to not have his number retired. And his he wore number 11. So Volpe doesn't need to wear that. Oh, Yeah. And the other thing is, the other number he wore was 20. It's already retired. Just put his name out there with Posada.
00:46:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. throwing What am I missing? Yeah. The Dickey thing. But, I mean, if his main number is 11, we don't need Volpe wearing the number. um Greg Nettles does not have his number at retired. Willie Randolph's in Monument Park but doesn't have a number retired. Those guys were captains of the team.
00:46:18
Speaker
e i I love CeCe. I'm very happy they're doing it. I'm just i'm surprised that they're doing it. if i had If it was my choice, I would do it because I'm biased.
Mets History and Beltran's Legacy
00:46:32
Speaker
But there's other guys that I think deserve it more.
00:46:38
Speaker
I think you're right. it's just I can understand that. I feel like it's just kind of a money grab now with the teams that they're doing it, right? To sell more tickets and stuff. And I didn't want to spoil it. with You got to get more chicken buckets, baby.
00:46:49
Speaker
And I was going to wait until we talk about Beltran, but i for someone who's borderline obsessed with accolades, I mean, I made my own freaking spreadsheet with my own stat for Christ's sake. I think retiring numbers is not borderline.
00:47:03
Speaker
world that's fair you know i'm not gonna deny that but my point is is that with that in mind i think retiring numbers is the dumbest most overrated honor in sports i never found hype with it ever because half the time you know oh this guy's kids coming in oh can he have can he wear the number sure he can why are we even bothering
00:47:28
Speaker
That happened with the Giants. Abdul Carter. Hey, Lawrence Taylor, can I have your number? Hey, Phil Simms, can I have your number? If they're asking people for the number whether and putting them in the position to either give it back or not, it's the dumbest thing. Why are we bothering with this charade?
00:47:41
Speaker
That's a good point. Stick them in Monument you Park. Call it a day. It's unlimited people. Whoever belongs in gets in. Whoever doesn't, doesn't. And then we don't have to worry about wearing 3.2 next year.
00:47:53
Speaker
We don't have actual numbers to have in circulation. So that's the main reason why I brought it up was I kind of wanted to rant. that i i' I know I sound old man yelling a cloud here, but retired numbers are just stupid.
00:48:09
Speaker
With that being said, I'm going to CC's because it's CC. Yeah. And I know I'm probably in the minority on it, but I find them dumb. For someone who's obsessed with accolades, I find it dumb.
00:48:22
Speaker
Which brings me to Carlos Beltran.
00:48:27
Speaker
Carlos Beltran, Mets only resume, seven seasons, 31 war, one NLCS appearance, which is known for the final out being the Adam Wainwright knee buckler. Yeah, the strikeout. Slash line at 280, 369, 500, so
00:48:43
Speaker
878 hits is seventh all time in home runs with 149. Seventh all time in runs batted in with 559. Hunter stole on bases. One fourth place MVP finish and then never finished above 20 again.
00:48:55
Speaker
Had five all-star games. Traded midseason in his last one. So we'll count that fifth one. Three gold gloves and two silver sluggers. Does Beltran deserve his number retired? No.
00:49:06
Speaker
No. Like, what am I missing? I want money. Yeah. And listen, if cohen if Cohen wants to do that, I get it. And I guess the thing is, like, it's almost sad. Like, when you think about Mets history, right, compared to Yankee history, it it's it's almost, you know, it's kind of sad.
00:49:28
Speaker
Like, I actually almost feel bad for them. I know. Well, Rex numbers were higher, too. I guess that he's more deserving, though. So the Mets have... Let's pull it up. Mets retired numbers. I can probably guess. Obviously Seaver. Yeah, Seaver. Did they do Daryl and Doc? I think he did that few years right? Seaver, Daryl, Doc, Piazza, Jerry Kuzman, Keith Hernandez, okay Willie Mays, who's played like two seasons for them at the very end, and David Wright.
00:49:58
Speaker
Those are the players. They also retire Casey Stengel and Gil Hodges. Sure. And obviously Jackie Robinson. But those are the eight players. So I guess if you're doing another one, it's either Beltran or Gary Carter.
00:50:13
Speaker
But do did you need another one? No. I don't think you did. That's what I'm saying. I feel like Cohen is – I know he took over and he's doing a lot of these. It's it's more feels like a cash grab thing.
00:50:25
Speaker
Oh, it's 100% a cash grab. don't know if it's – Yeah, i mean, it's I think it's more like a morale thing for the fans. That's a good point, yeah, to juice up the fan base. So Carter, what, God?
00:50:37
Speaker
No, was just saying, Sherm's right. he's He's trying to boost up the juice like in the fan base there. Well, did do that with the free tickets. Thank you again, Cullen, for that free game the other day. That was awesome. I know i know you're upset that people didn't show up.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say, I heard that people didn't even take the tickets. worry, Mike was there. I was there. I am partially responsible, I'll admit it. There was a max of four tickets. I got all four thinking people would want to go, and no one did. So I couldn't give them back.
00:51:05
Speaker
I absolutely would have given them back if I had the option to. But I didn't want to sell them because I felt wrong doing that when it was given to me for free. They ever listened to this pod redacted? No, I'm kidding. Yeah.
00:51:15
Speaker
So shout out, you know, Steve Cohen, if you ever listen to this for whatever reason, if we ever hit it big. Obviously he is. i mean, come on guys. So I just want to point out to Mr. Cohen that I did use the ticket that I was given. Honestly, I did not sell them, but no one wanted to go with me.
00:51:31
Speaker
I tried. Blame it on my friends who were too cold. My Jewish friends who were too cold. Oh,
00:51:42
Speaker
but but yeah ah go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. No, I was going to agree with you. Beltran does not deserve his number to be retired. So Carter played five seasons with the Mets, had a three and a six and MVP finish, four all-star games, two silver sluggers, but he won the title in 86. That's who they're going to retire next.
00:52:02
Speaker
Cohen's going to do it next year, I think. I don't think he really should either. I think he's a Montreal expo. I was going to say, yeah, he's more of an expo guy. But i I can almost get behind, you know, if you win the title, kind of like CeCe, you win the title, we can grave on a curve a little bit.
00:52:18
Speaker
But this would be like the Yankees. I feel like it would be equivalent to the Yankees retiring Mark Teixeira. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a bad look, too. yeah like the He finished second in MVP voting once, which is higher than Beltran ever did. He finished 19th in MVP voting twice when Beltran finished 20th twice.
00:52:37
Speaker
Won more gold gloves, more silver sluggers, less all-star games. um I believe he hit more home runs as a Yankee than Beltran did as a Met. ah He did. He had 50 more home runs as a Yankee than Beltran did as a Met.
00:52:53
Speaker
Wow. So, and he won a title.
00:53:00
Speaker
I don't know. He had more runs batted in with the Yankees than Beltran did with the Mets. That's crazy. He had five less hits than Beltran did with the Mets.
00:53:12
Speaker
The RBI thing's not that crazy. if you Think about the team you're playing on. I mean, Beltran was hitting behind Jose Reyes. Yeah, but DeGerri had A-Rod and Jeter.
00:53:23
Speaker
i guess, yeah. Posada, Robinson and Cano. I mean, that's that's one of the best lineups said in the last 20 years. But the home run thing is still... Yeah, the home run thing is crazy. And he actually won. And I think the the main litmus test for retiring numbers, if we're really going to do them, should be if the lasting memory of your tenure with a team is you striking out in the biggest moment. Yes. You probably shouldn't have your number retired. It's rough. Yeah.
00:53:52
Speaker
I don't know. i i'm I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule. i'm I mean, maybe like a Patrick Ewing, but... also Also, side note, Beltran was going to manage the Mets and then lost his job too.
00:54:03
Speaker
Remember that? Bang, bang. That's the other thing. isn't how weird is that? Bang, to come back and then retire his number. oh It's all bad for firing him because of bang, bang.
00:54:17
Speaker
But I will tell you, someone who the Mets have to retire now, looking at who they've retired in the past, is Jacob DeGrom. oh da Jacob DeGrom has to get his number. What about Reyes?
00:54:29
Speaker
I mean, I'll pull up the numbers. We can decide. I mean, if they're going retire... If I wasn't a home run hitter, but like... We can assume that Carter's going to get his retired most likely next. ah So Reyes played for the Mets for 12 seasons, had 27.9 war in that time, which is comparable. It's two it's three less than Beltran had. um he had 1,500 hits with the Mets,
00:54:55
Speaker
which is almost double Beltran, had 108 home runs. He wasn't a home run hitter, obviously. 521 runs batted in as a leadoff hitter. 408 stolen bases. I'm assuming he holds the Mets stolen base record. yeah Led in stolen bases three times, won a batting title with the Mets, and was on that same NLCS team that Beltran was.
00:55:12
Speaker
It's not a crazy case if this is what we're looking at. I think he's a shoo-in for um that Mets Hall of Fame when you walk into Citi Field, like getting a plaque on there. I don't know about the retired number. The other thing is also his, some of his past things may play a factor.
00:55:33
Speaker
Well, he famous, he won the bat in 10 of that year that he sat out, right? That's what I remember. did. Yeah. Yeah. This is last year with the Mets before he came back again three years later.
The Concept of Retiring Numbers in Sports
00:55:41
Speaker
Yeah. And he had 337 that year.
00:55:47
Speaker
Career with the Mets, he 282.
00:55:51
Speaker
So i was like an outlier season. guess you have to. He probably holds a lot of, like you said, the franchise record and stuff for stolen bases. so i I think he's a Met Hall of Famer. I don't think he's a a retired number guy. Yeah.
00:56:05
Speaker
yeah But, I mean, who knows with the way they're going. Have you seen a is Miley related, that new Twitter account is rolling around out there? Like that guy rocks.
00:56:17
Speaker
No. Oh, it's like it's some baseball account and like they pick a player who's like, you know, whole of pretty good worthy. Like Reyes was on it and it's just like a career highlights with rock music. and It's really, it's really dope account.
00:56:31
Speaker
That's what I had like, had like Jose Reyes and Tori Hunter and ah Prince Fielder, you know, guys, are they're not gonna make the whole thing, but you know, you, you know, the name that's fun. Yeah. So it's like the in-between of the whole of pretty good and the whole of fame. Yeah, and every day there's a new highlight video.
00:56:50
Speaker
That is Pretty dope. Good follow. Shout the guy out. The Niger Morgan highlight. I was going to say that, Mike. a boss. I caught his shots.
00:57:02
Speaker
Tony Plush. But um fun little trivia tip before you I'm looking up Mets records. So two Mets in franchise history have 1,500 hits. Ever.
00:57:15
Speaker
Who are they? Just with the Mets. What is Jose Reyes? Is it Keith? No. No. As a Met. Oh, as a, okay. He does have that as a Met. realize But only two Mets ever have 1,500 hits as a Met.
00:57:31
Speaker
just going to throw an Ed Crane poll to be funny. I don't know if it's him. not quite. Oh. He's third. what What time period? Around our our era.
00:57:41
Speaker
Really? It's easy. Is it? Right? Yes, David Wright. Okay. oh David Wright and Jose Reyes are the only two Mets in franchise history to have 1,500 hits. That's embarrassing.
00:57:54
Speaker
Jose Reyes does hold the record for stolen bases by over 100. It's funny you say that, Zach, because I'm pretty sure we had this exact –
00:58:03
Speaker
we said this exact same thing when we talked about right for the whole fam about how the Mets like they never had that one guy that was there for his whole career. Yeah. Yep. The infamous Ed Crane pool rant. Yep.
00:58:15
Speaker
Ed Crane pool, Don LaGreca. Yeah. It's a goaded rant. That's why I brought him up. That's why I know him. So put it this way for the Yankees, 10th all time in hits. And I got to go deeper on this leaderboard, but the the furthest it goes right now is 10. Earl Combs has 1866. He would hold the Mets record.
00:58:35
Speaker
He's 10th all time in Yankee history. He'd be the all time record holder for the Mets. Wow. Dang. So it's, it's kind of sad. it It is. I kind of get why they're doing the Beltran thing. Oh, you know what? Maybe Juan Soto will rack up enough stats over the, what, he's got 13 years left or whatever.
00:58:52
Speaker
Well, I mean, their all-time home run leader is now in Baltimore, so. now oh Yeah. Jorge Posada would be the all-time Mets home run leader.
00:59:04
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that's bad. He has 11 more than Pete Alonso did. Oh, my God. oh Yeah. Oh, that's a real bad stat.
00:59:16
Speaker
So maybe the maybe this was just an excuse to rag on the Mets. Yeah.
00:59:23
Speaker
Yeah. Guess how many players Metz history have a thousand ah RBIs? One. Zero. Oh, no. no Hey, oh, wait, no, Mike. At least they got Billy Wagner. You know, it's fine. Yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
Gotta love Billy Wagner. Oh, my God. All right, that was fun. I enjoyed that. I just, I didn't realize it was that bad. Wow. It is that bad. All right. Good for Carlos Beltran. I guess I can't really knock it.
00:59:52
Speaker
I know we fired you about six years ago, but please come back. and number up now yes
01:00:01
Speaker
ah You know, I'm kind of surprised you have this ah this take on it, Mike, um because you were the one that was like, I love the whole fame stuff. You know, make sure these guys get in when they're alive because it's great for them and their families. And you're saying almost the exact opposite.
01:00:17
Speaker
I think think the whole theme, the hall of fame, honestly, the difference is, is that you can vote in, in theory, as many people. And you know, the only difference is you're going to have 300 plaques in a room or 400 plaques in the room.
01:00:31
Speaker
Retired numbers actually impact the field of play because when you run out, what happens? We don't really know that yet. And the Yankees are going to get kind of close. Yeah.
01:00:44
Speaker
Well, the first thing they're going to do is they're going to approve the coaches don't have to wear numbers. not i mean Okay. and then And then you're going to approve double zero and all the guys are already wearing zero. and and yeah And then you're going have to approve triple digits.
01:00:59
Speaker
It's going to start looking like prison. unretired numbers. Prison! Now batting for the Yankees, number 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 3. like I feel like it's an honor that was intended for guys like Lou Gehrig, guys like Jackie Robinson, guys like Roberto Clemente. Not necessarily like great players, and all three of them obviously were, but I think it was meant more for guys who did something beyond the sport. I get it. It's morphed into more than that it's turned into Jorge Posada and Andy Pettin and Paul O'Neill. Listen, if this is what the honor is, they're all at least – I can't make a strong argument against them if that's what this honor is. I just think that the honor itself is kind of gimmicky money grab. That's the other difference. The Hall of Fame, someone's probably getting in and people going to show up. It's a matter of who.
01:01:57
Speaker
retir Yeah, I think if you're in the Hall of Fame, then you can get your number retired, and that's about it. Even if... i don't i don't I don't know if I particularly agree with the guys that aren't in the Hall of Fame getting their number retired.
01:02:08
Speaker
That's fair, too. Well, I don't know. For certain teams, it makes sense. Like we were saying the other day, um Alex Gordon, isn't he getting his... He's getting... He'll be Team Hall of Fame, I think. Hall of and number retired are different things, though. Yes. Yes.
01:02:23
Speaker
And that's why, like, I can honestly, for a guy like Pettit, I know I just used him as an an example. I didn't really mean to. I meant more Posada and Paul. But for a guy like Pettit, I can almost understand retiring the number more just because the game sevens and things like that.
01:02:37
Speaker
It's just I feel like it's a slippery slope once you start something like this. And it's been going on since the 1930s. Yeah, it's kind of ruined already. think we're too It's we can kind of stop it from here.
01:02:48
Speaker
i just always found the honor of the retired number to be like kind of pointless. Like I feel like the Hall of Fame, the team Hall of Fame is enough. like if you put a guy in Monument Park, then you have guys. Oh, you're good enough for Monument Park, but you're not good enough to have your number retired.
01:03:04
Speaker
like it just It feels cheaper. It's already ruined. yeah I know what you're saying. And how about one formal laugh at the Mets for not having one player above 1,000 that win all time? Ha ha. Ha ha.
01:03:18
Speaker
And only one player above 750. Ha ha. Ha ha. And that wraps up our 1945 episode of Championship of Us. Thank you for listening. We will see you next time for 1946. See you guys later.
01:03:30
Speaker
Peace. That was good. I like that.