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Episode 47 - 1939 World Series and The Craig Biggio Meltdown
35 Plays3 months ago
Yanks sweep the Reds and win their 4th Championship in a row.
The real highlight of this episode is around 24:00 when Josh claims that Craig Biggio is simply a stat compiler, and should not be in the HOF.
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Transcript
Introduction & Special Offer
00:00:01
Speaker
As Daniil Medvedev once said, we're paid by the pod, not by the hour. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the 1939 episode of Championship War Bust with Mac, Zach, and Josh.
00:00:11
Speaker
We technically don't actually get paid for this, but if you use promo code COB on liquidiv.com, we will get paid for this. So we would greatly appreciate that. Thank you so much.
1939 World Series Overview
00:00:21
Speaker
Josh, go ahead. Hit 1939. right.
00:00:24
Speaker
all right 1939 World Series, three-time defending champion New York Yankees versus the Cincinnati Reds, making their first appearance since 1919. The Yankees won the American League going one oh six and forty five winning by 17 games. Oh, man.
00:00:40
Speaker
And the Reds won a respectable ninety seven and fifty seven winning by 4.5 after being dead last in the National League two years before that. Quite the turnaround for them.
Game 1 Analysis
00:00:51
Speaker
So game one at Yankee Stadium, classic pitcher's duel.
00:00:54
Speaker
Red Ruffing versus Paul Derringer. game The game was scoreless until the fourth inning when Ival Goodman walked with two outs, stole second, and scored in Frank McCormick's ground ball through the hole on the left side.
00:01:04
Speaker
But the Yankees would tie it up in the bottom of the fifth when Joe Gordon singled and scored on Babe Dahlgren's double. The game would stay tied all the way until the bottom of the ninth inning. With one out, Charlie Keller tripled. The Reds intentionally walked Joe DiMaggio to bring up Bill Dickey,
00:01:18
Speaker
But Bill Dickey singled in the center and walked it off for the Yankees. Both pitchers threw complete games, ah and Red Ruffing came out victorious. They gave up just one run on four hits for the Yankees, taking game one.
Game 2 Summary
00:01:32
Speaker
Game two, so Yankees put up the first crooked number of the series. In the third inning, Babe Dahlgren led off with a double and scored on two rounds outs. With two outs, Red Rolfe singled and had scored on Charlie Keller's double.
00:01:44
Speaker
Bill Dickey followed it up with a single to score Keller and make it 3-0. In the next inning, the Yankees would add another on Babe Dahlgren's solo homer. Mont Pearson would throw a complete game two-hit shutout for the Yankees to secure the 4-0 win and take 2-0 series lead to Cincinnati.
Game 3 Highlights
00:02:01
Speaker
Game three in Cincinnati, so Yankees jump out to an early lead in the top of the first on Charlie Keller's two-run homer. In the bottom of the inning, the Reds would get run back thanks to three consecutive two-out singles that chased Yankee starter Lefty Gomez from the game.
00:02:15
Speaker
In the bottom the second, Bump Hadley took the mound and gave up four singles in the inning, including RBI singles from Billy Werber and Ival Goodman to give the Reds a three to two lead. But in the top of the fifth, Joe DiMaggio hit a two-out two-run homer,
00:02:28
Speaker
After Keller walked to give the Yankees back the lead, making 4-3. The Yankees would add to that lead in the fifth when Keller hit his second two-run homer of the game, the first rookie to hit two home runs in a game in the World Series.
00:02:39
Speaker
And Bill Dickey hit a solo shot of his own to make it 7-3, Yankees. And that's how it would say, putting the Yankees up three games to zero and one win away from a fourth and second World Series.
Game 4 & Yankees' Victory
00:02:51
Speaker
Game four tied 0-0 until the seventh inning when Charlie Keller and Bill Dickey both hit solo shots, making it 2-0, but the Reds would strike back in the bottom that inning.
00:03:02
Speaker
With runners on second and third via an error and a double, Wally Berger's RBI groundout put the Reds on the board. After a walk and back-to-back RBI singles from Willard Hershberger and Billy Werber, giving the Reds a three to two lead.
00:03:16
Speaker
They had a run in the bottom the eighth when Ivo Goodman hit leadoff solo home run. In the top of the ninth, Down two, the Yankees led off the inning with two singles. A fielder's choice, aided by an error, scored a run before Joe Gordon's RBI single tied the game.
00:03:30
Speaker
This game would go to extras. where the Yankees would get two on in the 10th a walk-in error, before Joe DiMaggio knocked in a run with a single. DiMaggio would advance on a throwing error by the outfielder, before King Kong Charlie Keller went home, colliding with the catcher, smacking him in the groin and scoring a run, and while the catcher was rolling around on the ground in pain trying to find the ball, DiMaggio came home and scored.
00:03:55
Speaker
the Yankees would take this three-run lead in the bottom of the inning and promptly give up back-to-back leadoff singles before retiring the next three batters, securing the sweep, securing a win, their fourth consecutive World Series title.
Charlie Keller's Hall of Fame Debate
00:04:09
Speaker
At a cumulative time of seven hours and five minutes, this is one of the shortest World Series in real time. Game three of the 2018 World Series itself was seven hours and 20 minutes long in an 18-inning game. That single game was longer than this entire World Series.
00:04:27
Speaker
That's insane.
00:04:31
Speaker
King Kong. What a nickname. King Kong. Charlie Keller. Known for hitting bombs and being just an absolute menace. I wasn't going to do it.
00:04:43
Speaker
I'm going to do it. Do it. Is he a Hall of Famer? Now. I know Zach's answer. I'm going to take a look, okay? I understand that the answer is probably a no, um but I think he's thought-provoking enough to at least have the conversation, and this is the perfect time to do it.
00:05:01
Speaker
So he played 13 seasons, missed his age 27 season due to military service. Had a top five MVP finish in 1941. This was his rookie season, 1939. And he got MVP votes in five other seasons.
00:05:17
Speaker
Keep in mind, he was on the Yankees. If you look at the war the first five seasons, he had five war above in all of them. I mean, the 4.9 in his rookie year, but in 111 games. So he was on a really, really good pace. And then after the military service, he kind of fell off. You can clearly see the drop off aside from one outlier season.
00:05:35
Speaker
He did make five
Johnny Vandermeer's Achievements
00:05:37
Speaker
all-star games. He won three titles. But the real case for him... is not the walks where he led the league twice with 106, has 500 walk seasons.
00:05:47
Speaker
It's the fact that he has 152 career OPS+. I haven't seen that a lot. Like, we talk about some of the best hitters ever. I wonder where that ranks actually looking at that. one hundred and So 52% above league average in OPS for his entire career.
00:06:03
Speaker
That's insane. That is kind of crazy. i I mean, I'll kind of answer my own question here. He peaked at about 6% on the ballot. I say no, but I think there's enough thought where we can – I think he can at least be in a discussion.
00:06:20
Speaker
Any thoughts besides that? No, discussion over. Okay, fair enough. I thought it could be a good way to kind of expand on Charlie Keller's career. I mean, the guy was a good player pretty much, you know, until he hit 30. And when he hit 30, it just fell apart.
00:06:37
Speaker
The case is OPS+. plus Yeah, that's not a case. so I know. That's a stretch. Yeah. But if we take guys who played 1,000 or more games and do descending OPS+, let's see what happens.
00:06:52
Speaker
We'll do minimum playing time of 1,000 games. You know, I mean, you got to think that, looking at his numbers, that he had some injury issues later in his career.
00:07:04
Speaker
I mean, once he turned 30, he didn't play more than 80 games in a year. I mean, shout out to Pot of Fame, Jim Myler. Zach, you sent me a tweet earlier today. He actually did a podcast on Charlie Keller.
00:07:15
Speaker
What? Yeah. Like he was good enough to get a podcast. That's kind of crazy. I'm sorry. So he's tied for 29th all time in OPS+. plus If we take out the guys who aren't in the Hall of Fame, we're looking at Barry Bonds, Aaron Judge, Mike Trout, Joe Jackson, Pete Browning, Juan Soto, Mark McGuire,
00:07:38
Speaker
Like, sure, you you can't just put one guy in because he has one good stat, though. You know what i'm saying? like I know, but I'm just saying that that's... It's impressive, but... I'm just pointing it out.
00:07:52
Speaker
There's something to that. Does that have a minimum games played? This is a minimum of 1,000 games. I don't know. And the guys immediately below him. honeying I think you're talking but you're talking about guys that have played significantly more than 1,000 games, though.
00:08:07
Speaker
Ralph Kiner played 200 more than him, and the case against Kiner was that he had a short career. So I can see it. But if you look under him, it's just a who's who of Hall of Famers. It's like 15 straight Hall of Fame guys and Albert Puholtz.
00:08:21
Speaker
So he's sandwiched between them. I'm not saying he's a Hall of Famer but in any way. thought it could be a fun discussion because that one 52% above league average for entirety of your career is nuts.
00:08:33
Speaker
And we consider the fact that he had a clear career drop-off After the military service. Well, obviously that's why you don't vote a man. No, I'm kidding. Right. That's why you don't vote a man.
00:08:45
Speaker
And again, um he's a no for me too. I just think he's a notable career that once, you know, I realized this is the slide series that it had to come up.
00:08:57
Speaker
So going into the actual Hall of Famers, we'll start with, should I start with the winning Yankees because there's no new ones in there? What do you think? Sure.
00:09:08
Speaker
All right, the winning Yankees. Joe McCarthy. It's the fifth championship, sixth pennant, number two manager of all time. Oh, shout out to umpire Bill McGowan. Anyway. Bill Dickey finished sixth in MVP voting this year. It's his fifth ring in as many appearances. 267 batting average, 979 OPS.
00:09:25
Speaker
Went four for 15, but had two home runs, five runs batted in. We voted him as a unanimous championship robust Hall of Famer back in the 1932 episode. Feel free to listen to that for more of a breakdown.
00:09:36
Speaker
Level one, number nine catcher between Carlton Fisk and Mickey Cochran. Joe DiMaggio, it's it's his fourth appearance. He's got the Wendy's 4-4-4 going on. And he was the winner of his – this was his first MVP season.
00:09:49
Speaker
He went 3-13 with an 853 OPS in the series, 5-16 with a dinger, three runs batted in. He was obviously unanimous Hall of Famer for Championship of in the 1936 episode.
00:10:00
Speaker
Level 5, number 4, center field between Trish Speaker and Mickey Mantle. Lefty Gomez, it's his fifth and final World Series his appearance, and he has five rings. He pitched one inning, gave up one arm with three hits, struck out one.
00:10:14
Speaker
He was a unanimous championship bus Hall Famer in the 1932 episode. Level one, number 50 starting pitcher between John Drysdale and Bob Lemon on the list. Joe Gordon, the newest member of the list.
00:10:25
Speaker
Finished ninth in MVP voting this year. It's his second appearance in his second ring, and his second season. Hit 143 with a 283 OPS. He struggled here mightily. Went two for 14 with two singles.
00:10:37
Speaker
He got two out of our three votes, so he falls short the championship robust Hall of Fame ah due to Mr. Zach. But on the list, he's level one, number 19, and second base between Red Sheen Deeds and Bobby Doerr.
00:10:49
Speaker
And Red Ruffing, who Josh mentioned, the number five was big for Red this year because it was his fifth appearance, his fifth ring, and he finished fifth in MVP voting.
00:11:00
Speaker
I went 1-0 with a complete game, one earned on four hits, four strikeouts and a walk. He was a unanimous no vote in the 1932 episode. So it goes without saying he's a basement Hall of Famer. Now we move on to the losing Reds.
00:11:14
Speaker
Before we get before you move on to Reds, I just want to say that I was doing some research as you were talking. ah Keller had a slipped disc removed from his spine in 47, which that would have been his age 30 season.
00:11:31
Speaker
Like I said, pretty much where it fell apart. And he was never the same player after that. So he has David Wright syndrome. And that is why all fell apart. David Wright plus a year of military service in the middle of his career.
00:11:44
Speaker
yeah So he's higher on my respect list, but still not a Hall of Famer. I agree. I can't get there. um On the Pot of Fame episode, I believe the guest he had on said yes and Jim said no.
00:11:58
Speaker
The guest he had on was dumb. Fair enough. But... Just an interesting career. And speaking of interesting careers, before I get to the whole family for the Reds, I want to shout out one person.
00:12:09
Speaker
I was going to wait until 1940 for this when we talk about the winning Reds. But you guys know that you ruined the surprise. You guys know the name Johnny Vandermeer, right?
00:12:23
Speaker
Vaguely. Johnny Vandermeer in 1938, which is why I chose to do this now, um became the only pitcher in Major League history to throw two consecutive no hitters. So basically, ah June 11, 1938, he pitched a no-hitter against the Boston Bees.
00:12:41
Speaker
And then he pitched on three days rest against the Brooklyn Dodgers through another no-hitter. He's still the only person to ever do it. Probably will be the only person ever do it. It wasn't on consecutive days, but it was consecutive starts. And it was on three days rest.
00:12:54
Speaker
So even if it does happen now, the only time that's happening is the playoffs. ah But getting two consecutive complete games now may never happen again. Imagine two consecutive no-hitters. But the fun fact about him also is that the second no-hitter was the first night game ever at Ebbets Field.
00:13:11
Speaker
Oh, that's really cool. So imagine that. like You're there for the first night. like Zach, we went – I think, Josh, you were away, but we went to that second game at UBS.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah. Just imagine someone like breaking a goal record that and like on the first night, the night before when UBS was sold out. That's sick to think about. That's awesome. But he was nicknamed the Dutch Masters to his Dutch Heritage – And after the no-hitter, he was also nicknamed 2-no-hit.
00:13:36
Speaker
He then started for the NL in the All-Star game. And from there, he struggled a little bit. Had decent career. He's not a Hall of Famer by any means unless you're really buying into the 2-no-hitter thing and you want to give points for historical achievements.
00:13:51
Speaker
He was two games under.500 for his career, had a 26-war win. Led the league in strikeouts three times actually though. so that kind of stands out. um Got MVP votes in four seasons, but never finished above 18th.
00:14:02
Speaker
And was a four-time all-star. Missed two years due to military service as well. ah But I don't think that's putting him over the edge or anything. He had a 107 ERA plus for his career.
00:14:12
Speaker
So he was a good pitcher who had a great achievement. I just wanted to kind of shout that out. And I figured 1948. nineteen forty was when he started to have his little drop-off at the least at the start of the season.
00:14:27
Speaker
um He actually pitched better in 1940 than he did in 1939, but made the All-Star team in 1939, presumably because of the no-hitters. But good career. Shout-out to Johnny Vandermeer. Moving into the actual Hall of Famers, manager Bill McKechnie.
Bill McKechnie's Career Highlights
00:14:41
Speaker
Did I say Hall of Fame managers? Anyway, Hall of Famer Bill McKechnie, manager. Third pennant, still has one ring, but now he's been in the World Series with three different teams. I'll forgive you if you don't remember our 1925 episode with the Pirates and 1928 episode with the Cardinals, but he's now taken three different teams to the pennant.
00:14:59
Speaker
Shout out to him. I'll find the ranking. i didn't write that down for whatever reason. Al Simmons played one game in the series, went one for four with a double. He was a unanimous championship a bus Hall of Famer. We voted on him in 1929, 10 years ago. And it feels like it 10 years ago since we recorded He was the level one number 10 between Billy Williams and Tim Raines.
00:15:23
Speaker
And our only new Hall of Famer, welcome Shepard Show of Us, Mr. Ernie Lombardi. I promise this one's a toughie. This is his first World Series. He had 214 with 481 OPS in the series, hitting 3 for 14 all singles. So he struggled.
00:15:38
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer? He had a 17-year career, played one season for both the Brooklyn Robins and the Boston Braves, two old school franchises, but spent more time with the Cincinnati Reds the New York Giants.
00:15:50
Speaker
He was elected in the class of 1986 by a veterans committee, peaking at 16.4% on the writer's ballot.
Ernie Lombardi's Hall of Fame Credentials
00:15:58
Speaker
um But he was an MVP-winning catcher who made seven All-Star games, but only had one other top 10 MVP finish, which was ninth.
00:16:07
Speaker
And he won two batting titles, again, as a catcher. So he was a career 306 hitter with an 818 OPS and a 126 OPS plus. 1792 hits, 190 home runs, 990 runs batted in, and a low war of 37.8. Is a Hall of Famer?
00:16:25
Speaker
This is Zach's type of player, dude. This is like your archetype. Remember, he is a catcher when you think about the In fact, this guy struck out times over career. Right.
00:16:40
Speaker
but his he's got twenty times but only three times in seventeen years The war is a trip. The counting stats are atrocious though. They're just not 300 every year.
00:16:51
Speaker
Zach, this is your guy. but Zach, Josh, there's yeah Bernie Lombardi's stats up. Okay. I'm going pull up Johnny Bench's counting stats. Oh, please do. He has more home runs, but he has 2048 hits. Yeah, that's 300.
00:17:03
Speaker
And significantly less at bats. Yeah. There's significantly more at bats. I mean, Bench has. Bench has almost 2,000 more at-bats than Lombardi and only 200-ish more hits.
00:17:15
Speaker
Okay. um What's the ribbies at? Ribbies, 1376 990. Again, 2,000 less at-bats. Still. Oh, my gosh. Again, he doesn't have to be Johnny Bench. I'm just saying counting sets for catchers tend to lack. We're going to have a nice conversation in two years, and I always tease it, about Buster Posey.
00:17:36
Speaker
but We could have some really nice conversations about Thurman Monson. its It's so interesting because Maurer was such a no-doubter and like people had issues with that. This is going to like feed into our rally conversation later.
00:17:50
Speaker
i Oh, God. I really don't know. I'll write down IDK for now. ka's answer We can let that influence you.
00:18:04
Speaker
I
Hall of Fame Candidate Discussions
00:18:05
Speaker
love that you had to write that down. IDK. I-D-K.
00:18:09
Speaker
idk I'm leaning, yeah. Honestly. What? i I have to say, I didn't expect that out of you. I have to lean, yeah.
00:18:19
Speaker
I mean... I expected you to be like, this isn't even a conversation. what are you talking about? Because you just look at the war and be like, no. But I'm... only say this because he's a catcher.
00:18:31
Speaker
And did this for such a length of time. Yeah, but he had one... Sure, he had one MVP year. And then... One, two batting titles. I know, I've got 10 times a year.
00:18:46
Speaker
This is like if Michael Brantley was a catcher, I guess, right? Except that Brantley isn't. Was he a catcher? No.
00:18:57
Speaker
There you go. Zach, what's your thoughts before I give you mine? and For the record, I do i think got to put no. I really do. I'm going to go now. I can't believe it.
00:19:09
Speaker
You are such a small hall guy, honestly. am. I can't believe it because this is this is the guy that you salivate over. Yes, I want him on my team. Do I necessarily think he's in the Hall of Fame? No.
00:19:20
Speaker
Now, Zach, I don't want to spoil of a really long-term future episode, but gun to your head right now, if you had to vote yes or no on Buster Posey right now, what would the vote be?
00:19:31
Speaker
I'd have to look at the stats. No, gun to your head. You don't have time to look at the stats. Three titles.
00:19:39
Speaker
7-0 first. Bang! The shot just went off. Answer the question. i I would lean... If I had to, I'd lean no currently. Without looking, i would lean no.
00:19:50
Speaker
Fair enough. because lety I was wondering because they're... Over-under, does Posey even have 200 home runs? like I'm just guessing. Under. 158. Yeah, I'd lean no off the top of my head.
00:20:03
Speaker
I would. And it's funny because you pointed out Maurer, who I agree was a no-doubter in my mind as well. um but And a lot of people didn't think so. When we compare him to Lombardi, let's see.
00:20:17
Speaker
Maurer's got... 50 more home runs than Maurer. and He has 50 more home runs than Maurer. Wow. Maurer's got 400 more hits, but also had 1,000 more at-bats.
00:20:29
Speaker
Go close him. Mauer's on base, and I'm assuming batting average is probably higher. um His OPS is slightly higher. Ernie Lombardi beats him pretty solidly in slugging.
00:20:41
Speaker
But Mauer's war is, what, 25 points higher? 55 to 37. That's a 20. Yeah, so that's 20. Lombardi made an extra all-star team, won a title, but Mauer's got more awards.
00:20:55
Speaker
Mauer has three. more was get out back that me I think it's the three batting titles that really put Mauer Yeah, I can see it. i I'm not saying... Mauer has three.
00:21:07
Speaker
No, I said Lombardi has two. Lombardi has two. Mauer has three. Jose had one. Correct. They each won one MVP.
00:21:19
Speaker
ah Same player. You can't vote for one and not the others.
00:21:24
Speaker
I'm going to keep you at the no. It seems like that's what you're settled on. Yeah. So I went with yes. how Zach Rohn and another Hall Fame again. i'm a small person. Mainly because of the Maurer factor. It was actually, and it's funny, I didn't mention that you did.
00:21:41
Speaker
um I went yes because of the Maurer factor. You went no because of the Maurer factor first. Didn't you vote for Joe Maurer? Yes, I did vote for Joe Maurer. Oh, you hypocrite. He's voting for Maurer. He said right now, he leaves no opposing. And i'm not holding I'm not holding you to that by any means.
00:21:55
Speaker
I was asking since in the context of Lombardi. but i said yes for the same reason you said no. Um, but honestly, a lot of the people who follow the whole do agree with Zach over us on this.
00:22:08
Speaker
good. So you're not in the minority by any means. This is not a crazy take at all. Um, just to be fair on it. oh I never said it was a crazy take. I said it was hypocritical. I am. Yeah. i mean, okay this point we're all hypocritical in certain parts of our whole thing voting.
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah. really or We can own it. Yeah. Like, Josh, in your case, you you but you say no to a lot of peak guys who retired early in this era, but then you vote for Andrew Jones, who I think should be in, but I also vote for those guys.
00:22:40
Speaker
Andrew Jones wasn't a peak guy. He was a total peak guy. 500 home runs, 10 gold gloves. What about that peak? 400 home runs. 400 home runs, 10 gold gloves. What about that as peak?
00:22:53
Speaker
He fell off a cliff at the age of 29. twenty nine
00:22:58
Speaker
It's okay. we still He has a whopping total of 4.7 war in his last six seasons. it's It's 62 war.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yes, but four over his last six seasons. The first 10 seasons were good, though. That's fair. and that's like like you talking about guys who made the league at 25 compared to who made the league at 19.
00:23:22
Speaker
but That's actually a conversation I was going to save for the Hall of Fame episode, but I'll ask you now. Is it possible to play your way out of the Hall of Fame? If you stay too long, yes. like Or is it once you are good enough, you're in? like For me, I'm probably in a minority. I think Jose Ramirez is a Hall of Famer today.
00:23:39
Speaker
I know I'm probably in the minority there. But I do feel that way. I'm very high on Jose Ramirez. I think he's been underrated for way too long. yeah And you know the the the total numbers aren't there.
00:23:50
Speaker
But if he keeps playing five years, falls off a cliff, do I still feel that way? I probably do. But is it pop like do you think once is it once you're in, you're in? Or can you lose it for six years and then people are like, eh, nah, I'm going yank it from you?
Impact of Late Career on Hall of Fame Status
00:24:10
Speaker
No, i don't i don't I don't think you can lose it.
00:24:14
Speaker
So once you hit it, yeah you had to have been that good for a number of years for somebody to go, when this guy retires, he's he's a Hall of Famer. And if it falls off at the end, it was age and it was injury, and it happens.
00:24:30
Speaker
So you're saying guys like David Wright, Dustin Pedroia never had it? Yes, exactly. Correct. yeah They had the peak, but they didn't do it long enough in the moment. But Andrew Jones did.
00:24:43
Speaker
I think Andrew Jones is a Hall of Famer. Fair enough. The reason why I actually ask you that is because... but there's too much ah There's too much of stuff like Biggio that I can't stand.
00:24:55
Speaker
Craig Biggio should not be a Hall of Famer. i don't agree with that. yeah What's wrong with that?
Craig Biggio's Hall of Fame Debate
00:25:03
Speaker
Because Biggio was a mediocre player ah for most of his career and just kept racking up hits um for 20 years.
00:25:16
Speaker
what is he i think And his only strength of making the Hall Fame is that in his 35 through forty cs age 41 season, he was still getting 150 hits a year.
00:25:29
Speaker
Most guys at that age start to fall apart, and he would have been 200 to 300 hits shot. You're neglecting the gold gloves. You're neglecting... what does he have? Four gold gloves. You're acting like that's a lot.
00:25:42
Speaker
He has 65 and a half war. You're also neglecting he's got to have, what, over 300 stolen bases. um Not that that's a lot. I mean, I guess it is a lot today's game.
00:25:52
Speaker
by I think the case with Craig Biggio is not that he was averaging the over. He was good in everything, not great in anything. He was what they call a stat compiler.
00:26:06
Speaker
me ask you this. He is kind of like Trey Turner. not Obviously not anymore, but when Trey Turner was like a top five, you know, top shortstop in the game, still stealing bases, top fielder.
00:26:17
Speaker
If he was, you know, he's that good for that amount of years, is he Hall Famer? Yes. Well, let me ask you this question. We really want to go there. Adrian Beltre.
00:26:28
Speaker
Oh, God. 3,000 hits, 400 home runs. What about Adrian Beltre screams Hall Famer Q? Was he ever the guy? i The platinum gloves.
00:26:41
Speaker
I've never went to a game saying I want to see Adrian Beltre, but we did all vote for him. I have never gone to a game saying I want to see Adrian Beltre. That is fair. I'm not disagreeing with that. However, was he ever like the guy like, oh man, I got to go see Adrian Beltre because this guy is the greatest player I have ever seen.
00:26:57
Speaker
he has a na He's a stat compiler. He's a great fielder, great hitter. great power hitter. He's a stat compiler.
00:27:09
Speaker
that And I like Adrian Beltre and I voted for him. I would vote for him again. But he is a stat compiler. And he makes Bijil look like a little girl.
00:27:21
Speaker
ah Can I give you this shot? This is bad. Let me do both, and then you can refute them as you'd like. So we'll start with this. Craig Biggio similarity scores on baseball reference. His 10 most similar players, eight of them are in the Hall of Fame.
00:27:34
Speaker
Robin Yount, Derek Jeter, Joe Morgan. This is an order of most similar. Robin Yount, Derek Jeter, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Cal Ripken Jr., Johnny Damon. Okay, fine. That's the outlier.
00:27:46
Speaker
Brooks Robinson, Lou Whitaker, George Brett.
00:27:50
Speaker
That's not just Hall of Famers. Those are like inner circle guys. You're crazy. And you're talking about guys that were elog getting MVP votes for 10 plus years of their career. that was That was not Bichio.
00:28:02
Speaker
Was he not? The next thing. i I don't see what the problem is with compiling stats and getting away in the Hall Fame with that. Because to hit 3,000 hits, that means you have hit 200 hits for 15 hits.
00:28:15
Speaker
for if teen I didn't say is anything wrong with it. I just said this guy is on the basement of the basements and I wouldn't vote for him. He's under the basement. There's a layer of bedrock, there's the Oakland A's budget, and then there's Craig Biggio. There is only a certain amount of people with 3,000 hits in baseball. going to call him basement Hall of Famer. You're crazy. yes Get out of here. I don't think there's such a thing as basement Hall of Famer with 3,000 hits. I don't. Yeah, he's a basement Hall of Famer. Get out here.
00:28:40
Speaker
For the record, I have Craig Biggio in level one. I think that's reasonable. he had He had one and MVP finish where he finished fourth. That was his highest MVP finish. you telling me that guy's a Hall of Famer? Okay, do me a favor. Go look up Chase Utley's and MVP finishes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Good night.
00:28:56
Speaker
Here we go. That's different. Seven. This is high. He's also a basement Hall of Famer. Oh, so he's not a Hall of Famer. They not the same. They are not the same. Basement means you're not in, so he's not a basement Hall of Famer.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. No. Like when I dropped him, we all said no. That means he's in the basement. You cannot Basement means you're in, but you shouldn't be. You can't compare Utley and Biggio. That's disrespectful. they have their're They're separated by one war.
00:29:21
Speaker
What? Okay, and 1,300 hits. What? And so look at all the counting stats. It's estimated by one war, my friend. Does Utley have hits? 1,300 hits. but yeah At some point, you have to. Utley has 40 less home runs and 4,000 less at-bats. It's a higher career OPS. How many hits does he have? higher career slugging.
00:29:38
Speaker
How many stolen bases does Utley have? if but if butley If Utley's body didn't give out at age 35, he's Craig Biggio. you're Okay, if David Wright's body didn't give out, he's Hall of Famer, too. What does that mean?
00:29:52
Speaker
wow i wouldn endorsing the time I wouldn't vote for Biggio. That's what I'm telling you. You're insane. Again, this is another Beltre. Will you ever go to a game going, man, I got to go see Biggio.
00:30:04
Speaker
This is the guy. But you voted for Beltre. It's a late 90s Astros. I got to go see Biggio because this is the greatest player. This guy is going to be a whole famer in his career.
00:30:17
Speaker
This is a bad take. This is a great take. This is a bad take. Anybody with 3,000 hits, anyone with 3,000 hits should not have to even wait the five years. Yes.
00:30:28
Speaker
and Just put them in. Stop delaying the inevitable. You hit 3,000. I mean, the only condition, I guess, is the steroid thing. That's the only reason why most people wouldn't vote for them. Fine. But if you did 3,000 hits clean, I don't think there's any reason to keep you out.
00:30:45
Speaker
It's like when the people say Lou Brock shouldn't be in. I mean, the guy had 900 stolen bases and 3,000 hits. Shut up. this is what What do you want? It's a stat compiler. And what he put up numbers.
00:30:57
Speaker
Okay, great. I mean, I guess Jeter has more hits than him, but like they're kind of the same. said They're similar players, not power hitters. jeers to us what too There's no way you're comparing Craig Vigio and Derek Jeter.
00:31:08
Speaker
There's no way. and the main Honestly, the main difference is the fact that Jeter was on the winning teams. that That's it, yeah. Other than that, I mean, Jeter played a little longer. you know, he has more career numbers because he played longer.
00:31:23
Speaker
But Jeter had more luck being in October. i don't think that's a crazy thought. No. wish was a hell of a player. Yeah, you can't – sure, this is ridiculous. 200 hits for 15 seasons. That's what it takes to get 3,000 hits.
00:31:38
Speaker
Jeter's OPS plus 115, Bizio's career OPS plus 112. Thank thank you Like, is Gretzky a stat compiler, too? He put up a lot of numbers. What are we doing? Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, if you put up enough numbers, you should be in. Yes.
00:31:54
Speaker
Because you have to be good enough to be hanging around that long. There are plenty guys that hit milestones that got black that got close to any milestones that Black Bull from the league for whatever reason, because they're like, we can't let this guy get 3,000 hits. It has happened.
00:32:05
Speaker
Sure. If somebody gets 500 home runs, they're automatically in the Hall of Fame, correct? Without steroids. Yes, in today's day and age. Somebody's saying 500, they're getting in, right? If home runs mean that much to you, sure.
00:32:19
Speaker
Whoa. It's the best outcome you could possibly have. Whoa. And don't let the the war nerds say anything different. A home run is better than a walk, guys.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah, come on. That's what the Yankees that's what the yakees preach. It's working well for them. yeah ya yeah That's a bad take. Remember when we had nothing to talk about? Thank you for that, Sheriff. Yeah, we really got it. Thank you for giving you a correct opinion. if you're Okay, all right.
00:32:47
Speaker
I would not vote for Craig Biggio, sorry. You are ridiculous. He'd be the only person, he's got to be the only person in the hall then with 3,000 hits to not get in if you didn't vote for him. Sure.
00:32:58
Speaker
Sure. For me, sure, yeah. This is a terrible take. Terrible. Absolutely terrible. you If you look at 3,000 in the club, I doubt you're saying no to anybody else. I mean, Lou Brock is probably the weakest one.
00:33:11
Speaker
But again, nine if you get 900 stolen bases in 3,000 minutes, I don't see how you yeah don't put them in. I don't. Well, it doesn't matter if you don't say it. I see it. And now I know we went on a complete tangent. The reason why I brought this up to you, honestly, is because football season is coming up and we have a new quarterback.
00:33:30
Speaker
ah here in giant land and that quarterback's name is Russell Wilson and that's why i asked you about playing your way out of the Hall of Fame because Russell Wilson had an elite start to his career probably ah had a Hall of Fame career five to six seasons in and then the drop off hit hard so that's why I was asking like can you play your way out of the Hall of Fame because that's been on my mind maybe but also his career was too short to retire after Seattle though right Oh, yeah, but I'm saying like his career was probably good enough to be a Hall of Famer.
00:34:03
Speaker
When you throw in the fact that he won a Super Bowl, made another one, had an MVP, made like seven Pro Bowls at that point. When he left Seattle, he was a nine-time Pro Bowler. And then he just had two really bad years in Denver, and people are saying he's a Pete Carroll merchant.
00:34:18
Speaker
Then made another Pro Bowl. Not that the Pro Bowl means too much, but you get what I mean. Right. But i I say he is, but that's why I was like, can you play your way out of the Hall of Fame?
00:34:30
Speaker
Because if anybody did, he he's one of them. Oh, my God. I mean, and sorry, not to go back to this. I'm really – I'm annoyed at this take. No, go ahead. I've been playing this.
00:34:41
Speaker
Off pod, I asked this question a few days ago. If Kyle Schwarber gets to 500 home runs, he's going to get in the Hall of Fame. And the dude bats 150 every year.
00:34:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up because I was going to and I was like, I don't know if we're going too long with it, but I'm totally down to keep going with this forever. I don't know if he'll get in with 500.
00:35:05
Speaker
I think he should get in if he hits 500. I don't know if he will. And the reason why is how long Fred McGriff took. And Fred McGriff by rate stats is much better.
00:35:19
Speaker
Then Kyle Schwarber. And McGriff took a while. and Now, he was on a really hard ballot with all the Roy guys and other deserving clean guys. But I'm hesitant to say that Schwarber would get in automatically with the 500.
00:35:34
Speaker
Stanton, I think he would because he has the MVP as well. And how do you turn down a guy with 500 home runs and an MVP? But Schwarber never really – Schwarber honestly is in the conversation this year. He's not going to win it because of Otani.
00:35:46
Speaker
ah yeah But, I mean, he might finish second. That gets a little more interesting, but it's to hard to get in with 232 batting average. I think there's enough writers that are going to thwart him because of that.
00:35:59
Speaker
Hmm. But ah let me weigh in here. I cannot in good conscience vote for a guy that has never let the league in any sort of rate stat other than home runs.
00:36:14
Speaker
but Barely as as one time at age 32, but an an MVP candidate and cannot field at all whatsoever and has not even it really hasn't played the field his whole career.
00:36:25
Speaker
I would not vote for Schwarber. So, Josh, you said you can't in good conscience vote for anybody who did not lead the league in any rates that provides home runs. How about runs scored? Because that's the only category Chase Utley let in besides hit by pitchers.
00:36:42
Speaker
Let me have one thing, Michael. Thank you. Listen, i'm all you can vote for Utley. He led and hit my pitches three times. And?
00:36:53
Speaker
You can vote for Utley. Just don't use the narratives that would affect Utley. Utley was a better plan, Kyle Schwarber. I don't disagree with that. Yeah, i don't disagree with But if Schwarber hits 500 home runs, then Schwarber should be in the Hall of Fame.
00:37:07
Speaker
Thank you. That's 50 home runs in 10 different seasons on average. That's damn good.
00:37:15
Speaker
ah He never hit 50 home runs. What what kind of math is that? Actually, you'll probably get it this year. He's at 45 right five In order to hit 500 home runs, that would be the equivalent of hitting 50 home runs in 10 days. I understand your math. I understand where the math came from, but he's never hit 50 home runs.
00:37:30
Speaker
i would I would get rid of that math.
00:37:34
Speaker
He might get it this year. I'm just trying to say that 500 home runs is hard to do. It is hard to do. He does it. He's a Hall of Famer. Yeah. That's your rite of passage. You get that, you're in. He led the league at home runs while hitting 218 and striking out 200 times.
00:37:47
Speaker
Right. He's probably going to finish with... That's disgusting. He's probably going to finish with like 460 and end up identical to Adam Dunn. He hits that. He does that. He's not getting 5%. As he shouldn't.
00:37:59
Speaker
But if he hits 500, that matters.
00:38:04
Speaker
If he hits 500, I wouldn't vote for him. So magic numbers don't mean anything to you.
00:38:11
Speaker
Who defined them as magic? History. Yeah. History. History has changed it. he can' Guys don't even hit the magic numbers anymore. It means nothing. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. That's what makes them more impressive. You're absolutely right.
00:38:25
Speaker
People are still going to get 3,000 hits. No one's going to get 300 wins. Well, yeah, pitchers. That i agree with. Yeah, Matt's. The 3,000 strikeouts are still attainable. Yes. Chris Sale has an outside shot. This year kind of hurt him.
00:38:36
Speaker
Garrett Cole has an outside shot. Garrett Cole actually has a decent shot as long as he comes back somewhat competent. He's got 2,200, and he's going to be 35 when he comes back. That's doable.
00:38:47
Speaker
Coming back off of a Tommy John at age 35? I don't know. He needs three. He basically needs three seasons because he needs 250 strikeouts in three seasons. He can do that.
00:39:00
Speaker
And he's under contract for what, four? Something like that. Yeah, three. So, they're not buying him out. he's He's here until 2029. The only thing that – the real thing is, and i this is going way on a tangent, these and the magic numbers are going to affect these guys because of, a the pandemic.
00:39:19
Speaker
They lost 120 games, and that's going to make a difference. And, B, this lockout that's coming up. I was going to say, yeah, they're not playing baseball. Because, like, Stanton – We look at Stanton. Stanton's at 445.
00:39:33
Speaker
Let's say he hits 30 next year. He's at 475, and then he's going to miss a good chunk of 2027. seven I still vote for Stanton over Shorber any of the week. Oh, I agree with that. why so no one No one's disagreeing with that. Yeah.
00:39:46
Speaker
Stanton should be – we can argue Stanton should be in now. Just because... could argue because he should be. If we go with the home run leaders who aren't in the Hall of Fame, who have an MVP award, it's like, and without steroids, it's Pujols Cabrera Stanton.
00:40:03
Speaker
it would It would be against precedent to have him out right now. Even though he doesn't really pass the vibe check. I can't believe you just said that. He doesn't.
00:40:14
Speaker
He doesn't pass the vibe check. You know who doesn't pass the vibe check? Pass whatever. Yeah. Craig, I'm going to kill you. But that actually is pretty on brand for you because you were against Sam Rice, who was very similar to Craig Bidio.
00:40:25
Speaker
See? I stick to my guns. you You stick to your guns there, but when you vote for when you don't vote for ah like a guy who had seven legitimately really, really Hall of Fame years and then you know didn't play really again after 30, my blood boils because you voted for Hunter Jones and Chase Utley.
00:40:43
Speaker
It's the same thing. What were we talking about? Half the guys we do is he a Hall of Famer with. Hack Wilson was one. i'm trying to see. Let's see. Joe Medwick was another one. Chuck Klein was another one.
00:40:58
Speaker
me look up Joe Medwick real quick here. Look up Joe Medwick. Because you you both voted no on him. I was stunned. Chuck Klein is probably the best example. Yeah, no. yeah Look up Chuck Klein.
00:41:11
Speaker
And look at all the black ink over the five-year stretch.
00:41:16
Speaker
He was of a ball player for five years. And fell off at the age of 29. Then he just was was on the field. So he played his way out of the Hall of Fame, or he just never made it there?
00:41:32
Speaker
that's It's not that he played his way out of it. I don't think that a five-year stretch in the beginning of your career would classify you as a Hall of Famer. In the first place.
00:41:43
Speaker
I think the only way you can is with a lot of black ink, which is what he did.
00:41:49
Speaker
Unless, you know, if he won... don't know if i agree with that. has two MVP runner-ups. If those both turned into first place, would that change your mind? Like, let's say Scoobal wins the Cy Young this year, and then Scoobal wins the Cy Young again next year.
00:42:02
Speaker
And he has three Cy Youngs to his name. Is he a Hall of Famer right there?
00:42:09
Speaker
I think that you say that of Oh yeah, he's a Hall Famer at that point in his career, just assuming he has a mediocre career. But you're talking about a guy who had a bad career after these after this five-year peak.
00:42:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:28
Speaker
i mean I mean, you're talking about like a Tim Linsicum where a guy comes in as the best player in the world's ever seen and then just turns into just a steaming pile of trash. And because it was the 30s, they just didn't tell him to pack his shit and get out yeah pretty much. And he just he just hung around.
00:42:45
Speaker
Let's put the gun to your head now. oh I'll do it. You're a one-person Hall of Fame committee. You have to put one of these guys in. or you get shot.
00:42:56
Speaker
Okay. Tim Lincecum or Craig Vigio? Oh, Tim Lincecum. I agree. oh I don't agree, but I get the, I i generally do prefer Pete. That's how you answer the question. would have gone to your head.
00:43:09
Speaker
ah That's a terrible answer. none of this None of this thinking stuff. You should be shot. It's not that terrible. That's terrible. You're saying no to both, but you'd prefer the Pete guy. would vote for the Pete guy in that situation, comparing those two players specifically.
00:43:26
Speaker
That'd actually be a really fun segment, guys. They'd just throw, you know, gun to your head, pick two guys. ah Yeah, that would be fun. Swipe right, swipe right. Gun to your head, Zach. Five seconds. I think I'd kill Sturmack. I think I'd actually kill him at the end of it.
00:43:41
Speaker
This is infuriating. Zach doesn't have enough time to to look out if they were in the military.
00:43:47
Speaker
Josh, gun your head. We'll do one more. Craig Biggio or Corey Kluber? yeah Ew. Craig Biggio. Thank you. Four top three Cy Young finishes.
00:43:58
Speaker
That's disgusting. Get out of here. ah clue One, two of them. That fell off. when of course the you we When we have nothing to talk about, that's a great segment to do. I really am all in on that segment.
00:44:15
Speaker
Freaking ex-Yankee Koi Kluber. Remember that? We were in his debut, Zach. I know.
00:44:22
Speaker
Freaking terrible.
00:44:25
Speaker
Wow. That was fun. that was That was great. That filled so much time. We didn't have a lot for current events today, folks, and now I'm also enraged, so I can't really focus well. um Why would you be enraged?
00:44:39
Speaker
Craig Vigio is a Hall of Famer, and I need you to stop. I mean, he is. This is a fact. He is a Hall of Famer, but I would vote for him. I can't believe you're going against Smithtown's own.
00:44:51
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, she's also a Long Island kid, so get out of here with that. It's a shame. Yeah, it's a shame. ah Yes. Shame. like ah None of this stuff even seems like relevant now that we're just yapping about. Now I'm all mad about this. Why would you keep going with that? That's how bad he is. This is so funny.
00:45:11
Speaker
My guy has 3K hits and nope, nope. Doesn't deserve to be in the whole team. That's He was an a above average player. For his whole career, he's ever a great player.
00:45:23
Speaker
At no point was he ever a great player. at All right, all right. Now i have a decent I have a question, Mike. Craig Biggio versus Bobby Abreu. Biggio, oh my God. yeah But now, wait.
00:45:37
Speaker
If we do a comparison on Stathead, like they the head-to-head, that the graphic you see everywhere, Abreu probably clears him in several categories. The rate stats would clearly favor Abreu.
00:45:50
Speaker
I can run one quick. Please, please do. This is interesting. The rate stats are going to really favor Abreu. The totals will favor Biggio. rate stats very much favor And all the awards will favor Biggio.
00:46:02
Speaker
I mean, ah listen, Abreu had a good a really good career. I just can't get behind it. So, Biggio five more war, but played 400 more games e ah Had and about two thousand twenty five hundred more plate appearances has 600 more hits.
00:46:22
Speaker
Abreu has a 10-point higher batting average, 30-point higher on base, a 40-point higher slugging, ah seventy five point higher op and a higher OPS, higher OPS+.
00:46:33
Speaker
Vizio made five more ulcer teams, won three more gold gloves, and four more silver sluggers. So it's basically exactly what we thought. So so remind me again, we all voted no. We all we did all vote no on Abreu, correct? Yes. yes So Abreu has better rate stats than...
00:46:48
Speaker
than Biggio, who also played a pretty lengthy career. Yes. Albeit had some injury issues. But we all said Biggio over Brau very quickly.
00:47:00
Speaker
even though their wars are very close because Biggio has more compiled stats. that is that Is that what I'm understanding? Yes, and I stand by it. Yeah, that's the that's so that's the correct answer.
00:47:10
Speaker
If Abreu stepped up to the plate 2,500 more times after his career fell off, you know he was a negative he was a half ah negative half a war player his last two seasons.
00:47:23
Speaker
If he stepped up to the plate another 2,500 times after that, after that His rate stats drop below Biggio's most likely. And his warp probably drops from 60.2. I'm just saying that if you take these guys in whatever prime year you would like to pick, and you had one at bat to get a hit, which guy would you pick?
00:47:43
Speaker
Biggio. Biggio. Without blinking. Abreu's garbage time merchant. Yeah. Interesting. Garbage time merchant. That's without blinking. goal You need a guy to get on base.
00:47:56
Speaker
He hit all his home runs when they were up E2 or down E2. You're picking Craig Vigio. yeah Oh, my God. I'm killing you. Not even a question I'm picking Vigio over, Bray.
00:48:06
Speaker
Jeremy, you're crazy. Interesting. You're crazy, though. But I think that's a faulty argument for the Hall of Fame, too, because, you know, you take— I didn't was a good argument. I'm just making a point. yeah We could say, you know, oh, take one year of Pete Rose and one year of Darryl Strawberry— To get a home run, yeah, you're going pick Daryl Strawberry in his pre-drug years. Oh, wait, wait. Side note. What tweet did I send to you guys? I think earlier today it was, ah yeah, Paul Skeen's first two years in the league are great, but Dwight Goodens aren't the standard.
00:48:38
Speaker
That was a pot of fame guy. I think i think what he his tone was – the way he writes, he tends to write with that tone like that, and he's very good at getting engagement. He's very smart. He runs a great podcast.
00:48:51
Speaker
But he's very the social media stuff that he does is awesome because he'll get people going. Because he says dumb crap on purpose. He had me mad. Yeah, I mean, what other guy says dumb stuff to get you mad, Zach, for engagement purposes? Hmm.
00:49:07
Speaker
Hmm. Sure. But what he was saying, I think, was that Gooden's the standard for the all-time great season, or the all-time great first two years. sure It's also a different – He's not saying – he's not saying if you don't clear him, you're a bum.
00:49:24
Speaker
He's saying if you – As good as we're talking about Skeens, pumped the brakes because Gooden had these two years and fell off, albeit because of you know drug unnatural reasons.
00:49:35
Speaker
But you get the point. I think that was what he was trying to say. i get that. But at the same time, you can't compare eras like that because the Pittsburgh is never going to let Skeens have that many complete games.
00:49:46
Speaker
Oh, 100%. Yeah. I get that. But Skeens has been dominant. Absolutely. I don't. yeah that That had me mad this morning too.
00:49:57
Speaker
I could tell. I was enjoying that. Oh, God. Sorry, guys. When you guys get into like the the history stuff, I really enjoy listening to that. I'm still really pissed off about this whole thing.
00:50:10
Speaker
It's great. Good. I'm having fun. I enjoy watching you be mad. Do we want to switch gears and make Josh mad now, Mike? Sure. don't know where you're going with this. Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
00:50:23
Speaker
Kyle Rowley versus Aaron Judge. Oh, yeah. yeah but I continue to be correct, and you're wrong. I love where this is going. Now that Judge is hurt, do we think Rowley should be favored to be the MVP?
00:50:35
Speaker
I honestly do, which is upsetting, but I think it's the right answer. and for playing Are we playing gun to the head, or am I really putting thought into this? Well, yeah, gun to the head. What do you think?
00:50:49
Speaker
Gun to the head, I'd say Rowley. The more I think about it, the more I lean Judge. Like initially when we said it, that was the equivalent of gone to the head. I think what it really comes down to for me, i'm and i've I've been consistent with this over over years, particularly with MVP, if I'm borderline and one guy makes the playoffs and the other doesn't, I usually go with the guy who made the playoffs.
00:51:12
Speaker
So I'm waiting for that. I i love that argument. I love that argument because of how many MVPs Trout and Otani won while playing on the worst team in America. Yeah, it doesn't matter anymore. it does it That argument image just means nothing. and it And it's the hypocrisy of journalists and all those morons, ah especially with the with Judge and Altuve in 2017, where Judge had every stat was better than Altuve, except Altuve had a higher average, and they went, Altuve's average was so much higher, he deserves the MVP.
00:51:45
Speaker
Judge sucks. And now that literally the roles are reversed, where they were like home runs didn't mean anything, now it's like home runs mean everything. I don't care if this guy's hitting.250 and can't get on base, but he you know he's got 50 home runs.
00:51:58
Speaker
He should be the MVP, even though Judge is leading every stat. I think you're really underselling the fact that he is a platinum glove catcher. I can't give the guy an MVP because the position he plays.
00:52:11
Speaker
Why not? Why? annie for three years. Yeah, they love Otani because he pitches. and i And I've said multiple times how I cannot stand that they gave it to Otani because he pitches.
00:52:21
Speaker
I've made that point very clear. Right, but are we going to say, and I understand going with what they've done. see the thing is, like it's always like this argument of, well, Cal Raleigh is a catcher. He's having the greatest catching ah the greatest hitting season as a catcher we've ever seen.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yes, that could be true. That does not have to be a false statement. But judges having one of the greatest hitting seasons, period, he that we have ever seen. If Rowley hits 63, does that change you?
00:52:53
Speaker
No. You're talking about a guy who is leading the league in every single category except for home runs.
00:53:05
Speaker
so Every category. He's leading in batting average, arm-based slugging, OPS, OPS+, total bases, intentional walks. What do you want? The guy's leading in war. What do you want? He's leading the league in walks. What more could he possibly do?
00:53:20
Speaker
Because he's not a catcher. i What kind of argument is that? So like I said, gun to the head. That's been DHing for half the season because he's hurt and he still has a higher war than a guy who's playing a war-heavy position of catcher.
00:53:31
Speaker
Get real. Get real. I mean, absolutely get real. Look who's mad now. No, I'm not mad. just a fact. Maybe I'll get me mad. I feel left out.
00:53:44
Speaker
i Just be real, dude. Be real. Do you think it's writer fatigue? Is that really what it is? They're just tired of voting in judge? Yes, it is writer fatigue. It's New York fatigue. That's what it is.
00:53:54
Speaker
I don't want to vote for judge. I'm tired of voting for the Yankees. Yankees, Yankees, Yankees. I'm not voting for judge. I think your anger is a little premature, though, because the odds still favor Judge.
00:54:06
Speaker
well I mean, at this point, Judge could still win, but it's going to be way closer than it should be. Oh, wow. They spawned. Never mind. Judge now second. Oh, yeah. really? Yeah. Yeah. you right Because he had 50. Rally got to 50. That's why. Yeah.
00:54:23
Speaker
I mean, as I'm looking at the numbers, like we said it but before a pod, gone to my head, I was leading rally. um look The second I looked at numbers, it's obvious. It's not high. I mean, judges batting on the Judges stats. It's not like judges stats are higher than rallies. Judges stats are so much higher than rallies.
00:54:40
Speaker
Thank you for bringing back. So much higher. My Yankee. I think it's also the fact that Zach and I both try, I think, to – give the benefit of the doubt because we don't want to be but don't want to deal with the homerism stuff.
00:54:55
Speaker
We're trying to be objective. But objectively, Judge is still the MVP. i Like, it's still there. i Like I say, it's not even a Yankee bias. He's leading in every single rate category.
00:55:07
Speaker
And it's not like, oh, he only played 10 games. buts say He's played the same amount of games as his rallies played. He's played eight less. so That's not a difference. You're right. um man So yeah um he leads in – Raleigh leads in games, played appearances, home runs, runs batted in, and stolen bases, fourteen eighty Everything else is Judge.
00:55:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm willing to give you this one. I'm not willing to give you Biggio, but I'm willing to give you this one. And Judge is also betting live three twenty three and rallally's batting, 247, yeah.
00:55:39
Speaker
But are we going to give any – does Raleigh get – if it's – let's say it ends up close. And let's say Raleigh's batting average dramatically picks up and Judge slumps again. And it ends up being – Raleigh is slumping. Raleigh's hit like $1.90 the last month.
00:55:54
Speaker
But let's say the roles reverse and Judge starts a downfall and Raleigh starts increasing and it gets close. does Rowley get a bump for the gold glove defense where if assuming Judge is still DH-ing for the rest of the season, that does that matter to you at all?
00:56:12
Speaker
Or is it just pure numbers on numbers because Otani got it last year as a full-time DH and that kind of set the precedent? It doesn't matter Judge's average would have to drop 25 points and Rowley's raised 25 points for me to even consider that.
00:56:25
Speaker
That's how far apart they are. So, Rowley's 270 and Judge is like 295? Yeah, that's what it would take for me to even get there. Yeah. Because I do think catcher, the defense factor matters, and Seattle's got a great rotation. I think part of it is because Raleigh calls like a good game, but you can't quantify that.
00:56:44
Speaker
i Like I said, dude, you can't. I'm not taking away anything that Raleigh has done. This is an incredible season for a catcher. It's going to go down the history books. But to take away what Judge is doing because of that and how much better Judge's stats are as a whole than Raleigh's is ridiculous to me.
00:57:03
Speaker
yeah
00:57:07
Speaker
Well, there you go. Everybody's mad now. um I'm not mad. I got to join. I'm not mad. I'm right. Put that on a t-shirt and sell it. but I'm not mad. I'm right. I'm not mad. I'm right.
00:57:20
Speaker
um Do we want to talk about realignment? Put that on t-shirt, Zach. that's your That's your task this week. Okay. i Well, no. My task is editing the pod, but sure. You got two tasks. Realignment? Yes, no?
00:57:32
Speaker
Maybe so. ah Somebody needs to push Manfred out a window. ah yeah Preferably from a high building. I understand where he's coming from, but somebody really has to look at these divisions and make them equal because the ones on Twitter are ridiculous. That's all I have to say about it.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah, I can't blame Manfred for those moronic ideas. Yeah. Well, no, because he said that he wants to do it based upon ah geography, but which is great.
00:57:59
Speaker
and You want less travel to save your owner's money, obviously. That's his main priority here. But you're going to put all of your metropolitan teams in a division, and then you're going to put all your backwoods teams in a division, and then and then sit there and wonder why one division has teams that are so much better than another division because one division spends money because they're a big market team against another division that doesn't spend money because they're a small market team.
00:58:24
Speaker
And all the big market teams get thrown into one. And it's going to be like, oh, well, now it's fair for the small market teams. They have a chance to make the playoffs. that's that's That's exactly what it is. you can I can see the argument already. Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates because they don't want to spend money. and Now they should have a chance because they don't have to worry about the big market teams.
00:58:45
Speaker
Why don't we just call the divisions rich, mids, and plebs? but We get one representative from each. Yeah, I mean, realize it's ridiculous. It's it's beyond stupid. but but Honestly, I don't understand why baseball needs an expansion at all in general.
00:59:00
Speaker
Money. I like money. but You have two teams playing in minor league stadiums, and you're talking about expansion? shouldn't worry about the teams playing in minor league stadiums.
00:59:12
Speaker
Owners are greedy. They want money. But there's been a lot of talk about expansion in every sport. And other than hockey, doesn't it hasn't really happened. Basketball was talking about expanding two teams once they got the TV deal.
00:59:24
Speaker
They got the TV deal. And hockey blew it. And hockey blew it with Vegas. What do you mean? The expansion draft where they just let them have a top-tier team? yeah They blew it.
00:59:37
Speaker
They absolutely blew it. Did they blow it? Yes, there's a reason why they didn't do that a second time. Listen, think it's worked out. Where you could make a trade to be like, hey, don't take this guy.
00:59:48
Speaker
Vegas has great fan base because of all that, though. That's not why they have a great fan base. I think they had nothing to root for it before. Honestly, though, I think they they did that, but I do think they planned it out that way for the first one with Vegas. Yeah, don't know. Let's plan another one. Let's go put another the team in Atlanta for the third time.
01:00:07
Speaker
there were People weren't sure if Vegas could handle sports teams. And also a lot of the yeah um a lot of the people coming to the games will be tourists. Will they have enough room? Will they have enough people going in?
01:00:18
Speaker
There were all these questions coming out. And then the Raiders followed. Now the A's tried to follow and basketball's trying to add. but Yeah, we questioned good ideas and in bad ideas. We're like, that's great. Let's do it.
01:00:29
Speaker
Vegas had to be a hit. Yeah. I think that was done by design is my point. And then they walked it back for Seattle because, you know, Seattle has an established fan base.
01:00:42
Speaker
Also, I don't know if if you guys noticed, the 2026 schedule came out today. The A's are playing in Vegas. Fine. They're playing at the minor league ballpark in Vegas for like two series or whatever.
01:00:56
Speaker
Whoop-de-doo. Yeah, I know. Big deal. They haven't broke ground and then never going to. Yeah, yeah. It's an embarrassing thing. Yeah, no. And where's Tampa playing?
01:01:05
Speaker
Tropicana Field going magically be put itself back together? i think they're probably going to walk out there and go, Reparo, and it's going to magically fix itself? I think they said Tropicana is going to be ready, but will leave that when I see it.
01:01:19
Speaker
yeah they and They don't do anything, both of those franchises. They started repairing it in July. um the I guarantee you they wouldn't even start it if Steinbrenner didn't go down there and say, you're not playing here next year.
01:01:31
Speaker
i don't care. i just I don't understand how you can sit there with a straight face and have a talk about realignment and expansion when you have two teams playing in minor league ballparks.
01:01:44
Speaker
It's stupid. And that's Rob Manfred's legacy. Pure and utter stupidity. And then on top of that, you have a team that's trying to sell that can't find a box.
01:01:56
Speaker
Poor Twins fans. And who would buy it? They just sold everything. boy But the Minnesota Twins aren't shiny enough to be a toy. They have a terrible team. They have a terrible prospect pool.
01:02:10
Speaker
Who's buying that? don't know. How's their attendance levels? I'm assuming not great. Not great. man Because you can buy it for like the way Pittsburgh and the White Sox do it, and they just buy it for, know,
01:02:23
Speaker
the financial gains and spend as little as possible. You got to hope and pray it. You got a Wilpon where the guy's like, I'm going to spend money because I love this team and I've loved this team forever. And there's not a lot of people.
01:02:34
Speaker
Not a Wilpon. Not Wilpon. Cullen, sorry. I meant Cullen. Where you have to have a guy that just loves the team that's going to spend money. And and I don't think there's a lot of guys like Cullen out there. There's a lot of guys like Wilpon out there. There's not a lot of guys like Cullen out there.
01:02:46
Speaker
um What else do you want to do? A quick injury roundup? The Rangers lost Evaldi for the year and Simeon. So, I mean, they weren't really in the playoff picture to begin with, but not Now they're definitely not.
01:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, their season's over. Feel bad for Evaldi. He had a great season. I mean, he he was low-key. line key He had some, you know, I won't say high-balance Cy Young talk, but he was probably, know, pretty clearly the fourth guy in the AL behind Scoobull, Crochet, and Brown.
01:03:23
Speaker
He was four or five with the Grom, I'd say. Hell of a season. Just too bad it got shortened up. What else? Oh, Wheeler. Duh. Wheeler's out for the year.
01:03:35
Speaker
That's scary. that Yeah, that sucks. that's song yeah definitely scary. Thank God they found that. Yeah. It's interesting how the blood c clots are becoming more common, though. and I know, right?
01:03:47
Speaker
Wembenyama had one. Chris Letang. Chris Letang had one. Didn't Letang have a stroke? Yeah, i think Freddie Anderson had one, too. Wow.
01:03:59
Speaker
Chris Bocz's career ended over blood clots. feel like we didn't hear like a lot of those when were kids, and now it's become more of a thing. I wonder if testing better, but then guys would have had worse. I think guys are pushing their bodies harder than they ever have.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, Damon Lillard. isn't you know This isn't the 1930s where baseball player was fat and drunk and they go up there and they yeah throw 80 pitches and a game is over. These guys are all going up there. They have to throw 100 for 90 pitches and then that's it game. And then then they're done.
01:04:34
Speaker
I just wonder if this affects Wheeler's timeline because he said he was going to retire when his contract was up. Right. 2027. Oh, I didn't think about that. I mean, he's he's already made $170 million.
01:04:49
Speaker
Does it add a couple of years, or does it does he is there a chance that he just might say, I'm done?
01:04:57
Speaker
He might.
Financial Decisions & Player Empathy
01:04:58
Speaker
i mean, if that's really what he said he wanted to do. Like, 2027 may not happen anyway. Does he say to collect the $42 million?
01:05:09
Speaker
i mean, I would say to collect the $42 million, but you but you already made $170 million,
01:05:14
Speaker
I feel bad for him. sucks for the Phils, but I still have Sanchez. I feel bad for him too. It sucks.
Player Career Highlights & Stats
01:05:23
Speaker
he He set up – he had a great second half of his career. He was the opposite of all those guys we were talking about before.
01:05:29
Speaker
Yeah. Where his career really started at like 28, 29 years old. Yeah, for real. he like He was decent with the Mets, and then he didn't really take off, I feel like, until he really got to Philly, right?
01:05:42
Speaker
His first three seasons through age 27, he had 2.3 war, was under.500 with 3.9 career ERA, and had a full season out with injury in one of those years. then he went Then he had two seasons with the Mets. And the Mets gave up on him.
Episode Conclusion
01:05:57
Speaker
And that wraps up 1939 episode of Championship Our Bus. Thank you for listening, and we will see you for the turn of the decade for 1940. See you guys later. Peace.