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Episode 51 - 1941 World Series and Lance Berkman?
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Josh breaks down the 1941 World Series in which the Yankees beat the Brooklyn Dodgers in 5 games.
We debate the HOF cases of Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizzuto. Does Rizzuto's status as an all-time Yankee and broadcast resume help or hurt his case?
The gang also talks everything Mets related after the winter meetings (this episode was recorded on 12/17/25).
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Transcript
1941 World Series Recap
00:00:03
Speaker
Okay, here we go. We got a real pressure cooker going in here. Two down, nobody on, no score, bottom of the ninth. There's the windup, and there it is, a line shot up the middle. Look at him go. This boy can really fly. He's rounding first and really turning it it on now. He's not letting up at all. He's going to try for second. The ball is bobbled out in center, and here comes the throw, and what a throw. He's going to slide in head first. Here he comes. He's out. No, wait, safe.
00:00:24
Speaker
Safe at second base. This kid really makes things happen out there. Batter steps up to the plate. Here's the pitch. He's going, and what a jump he's got. He's trying for third. Here's the throw. It's in the dirt. Safe at third. Holy cow, second base. He's taking a pretty big lead out there, almost daring him to try to pick him off. The pitcher glances over, winds up, and it's bunted. Bunted down the third baseline. The suicide squeeze is on.
00:00:44
Speaker
Here it comes. Squeeze play. It's going to be close. Holy cow, I think he's going to make it. Stop right there! I'm talking right Before we any further, do you love me? Will you love me forever? Do you need me? Will you never?
00:01:04
Speaker
Yes. Perfect. Oh, that was great. Excellent execution. Oh, my God. That was perfect. Yep. Let's stop right there. I got to know right now, before we go any further, are you going to vote for Phil Rizzuto? What's up, everybody?
00:01:20
Speaker
Welcome to the 1941 episode of Championship or Bust with Mac, Zach, and Josh. We have a lot of fun for you tonight. We have the regular World Series stuff. I know we just came off the Hall of Fame stuff. We're in peak Hall of Fame season, and we have two really fun, debatable Hall of Fame cases tonight. that I think are going to invoke some real debate. So I'm looking forward to that. First, Josh, game breakdown after your wonderful singing. Yeah, I got to say, I think that was the best intro we've ever did, even though my singing is awful. That was amazing. at I got to say, I was very impressed with your singing. Yeah, that was great. I wasn't sure how hard I was going to take it, but I was just feeling it in the moment. That was perfect. That was awesome.
00:02:00
Speaker
but oh All right. Well, The 1941 World Series. The New York Yankees versus the Brooklyn Dodgers. The first ever Subway Series.
00:02:13
Speaker
And this was the last World Series before World War II. Yes, sir. So game one. Uh-oh. Why we are we uh-ohing?
00:02:24
Speaker
No reason. the players didn't leave yet. and i know. That's why so We know how much that feels about that. oh So game one, Yankee Stadium. So Yankees open the scoring.
00:02:37
Speaker
In the bottom of the second inning, thanks to Joe Gordon's solo home run, the Yankees would extend the lead two when Charlie Keller walked with two outs and scored on Bill Dickey's double. In the top of the fifth, the Dodgers would cut the lead in half when Pee Re is singled with two outs and scored on Mickey Owen's triple. Yankees would reestablish that two-run lead in the bottom of the sixth when Joe Gordon knocked an RBI single.
00:02:55
Speaker
In top the seventh, pinch hitter Lou Riggs singled home Cookie Levin... Lavigette to make it a 3-2 game. At the top of the ninth, the Dodgers would get two on with one out before Red Ruffing got Herman Franks to ground into a game-ending 4-6-3 double play. The Yankees would take game one, 3-2.
00:03:13
Speaker
Game two, so the Yankees strike first again in the bottom of the second, when Spud Chandler singled with runners on second and third. One run would come in to score, but Joe Gordon would get thrown at home trying to score from second. In the bottom of third, Charlie Keller singled in another run. In the top of the fifth, with the bases loaded, the Dodgers scored their first run of the game on P.B. Reese's sack fly and then tied the game on Mickey Owen's single. In the top of sixth, they get their first lead of a Dolph Camilli single.
00:03:37
Speaker
Whit Wyatt would keep the Yankees off the board for the rest of the game, finishing what he started. Dodgers taking game two, three to two. This would snap the Yankees' 10 consecutive World Series wins. And Whit Wyatt was very proud of himself.
00:03:50
Speaker
I think he said this was the ah biggest moment of his career. yes Fits. And it does fit. Yeah, this was also the best season of his career by far.
00:04:02
Speaker
um So game three, series shifted to Ebbets Field, and it was a pitcher's duel. Scoreless after seven innings, Dodgers pitcher Freddie Fitzsimmons had to be pulled from the game after they're getting hit with a line drive in the kneecap.
00:04:14
Speaker
The bull ricocheted right to Peebee Reese's short to get the out, but that was the last pitch he threw. And after the game, he found out that that pitch broke his kneecap. Wow.
00:04:24
Speaker
So Hugh Casey comes in for him to come in to pitch the eighth and gives up four one-out singles in a row. DiMaggio and Kel were each getting an RBI, making it 2-0 for the Yankees. The Dodgers would get a run back in the bottom of the inning when Dixie Walker hit a leadoff double and scored on a P.B. Ray single.
00:04:42
Speaker
But that was all the Dodgers could get off Marius Russo, and Russo would finish the game giving up just one run on four hits for a 2-1 victory for the Yankees. Game four saw the Yankees open to scoring in the top of the first on Charlie Keller's RBI single. In the fourth, the Yankees would lower the bases and score two runs on Johnny Sturm's single.
00:05:00
Speaker
In the bottom of that inning, the Dodgers would finally break through. Either Adley Donald walked two batters after getting two outs and then gave up a two-run double to Jimmy Wasnell. In the bottom of the fifth, Pete Reesers, two-run home run, gave the Dodgers their first lead of the game, and that's how it stayed until the ninth inning.
00:05:15
Speaker
With two outs and two strikes, no runners on, UKC got Tommy Heinrich to swing and miss, but catcher Mickey Owens missed the ball, and Heinrich reached first on the drop third strike.
00:05:26
Speaker
And the rally was on. DiMaggio followed with a single, Charlie Keller doubled, driving home Heinrich and DiMaggio. After a walk Billy Dickey, Joe Gordon doubled and scored two more runs. Make it 7-4. Johnny Murphy would shut the door for the Yankees and take game four, but Yankees won one away from another championship.
Hall of Fame Debates
00:05:42
Speaker
how How terrible is that? I mean, that's like 99.9% chance of winning the game to losing. It's like Castillo's drop ball. Oh, yeah.
00:05:53
Speaker
Pretty bad.
00:05:56
Speaker
So game five, the Yankees open up the scoring yet again in the top of the second after a wild pitch followed by an RBI single-plated two runs. Dodgers would get run-run back in the bottom of the third on Pete Rees for sack fly, but the Yankees already established that two-run lead with Tommy Heinrich hit a solo homer in the top the fifth. Tiny Bonham would throw a four-hit complete game for the Yankees, winning game five 3-1, taking the series four games to one, and winning the World Series for the Yankees.
00:06:20
Speaker
The Dodgers hit a pathetic 182 for the series. Not really surprised why they lost. Yeah, that sounds about right. Sounds familiar. Yeah.
00:06:33
Speaker
That's going cold. So, for the Hall of Famers, we have a new manager who joins the battle. And technically, it's his third World Series, and I've mentioned name a couple times but because he was in as a player, but it's his first as a manager. So, official welcome to Championship Robust, Leo DeRocher. His first pennant as a manager, he's going to total of three with one World Series that's going to come up in, you I guess, 14 years. He finished his career with 2008 wins and 1709 losses for a 540 winning percentage. i have him as the number 22 manager between Bucky Harris, who we've talked about before, and a guy who we're not to about for a long time, Dusty Baker.
00:07:15
Speaker
Billy Herman. Welcome back, Mr. Herman. It's his fourth and final World Series and his fourth and final World Series loss. He struggled in this one, hitting 125, went one for eight with a single and two walks. Just reminder, level one, number 17, second baseman between Tony Lazeri and Red Sheehan Deinst.
00:07:34
Speaker
Joe Medwick, his second and final appearance, finishes 1-1 in the series overall, but he batted 4-17 in this one with a double and a walk. He's level 1, number 16 left field between Jim Rice and Goose Gosling, but neither one of you voted for him.
00:07:50
Speaker
And we have our first debate to have. Welcome to Championship Robust, Pee Wee Reese. Before I go into the monologue, we all know what he did, right? Yes, of course. yeah okay so I don't have to go into that stuff. We'll go deeper with it with ah Jackie Robinson when he integrates into the league.
00:08:11
Speaker
But... As a player, is he a Hall of Famer? In this series, he had 4 for 20 with two runs batted in. We obviously know Pee Wee Reister's contributions above the game, but he was a damn good player.
00:08:22
Speaker
He played 16 seasons for the Dodgers, mostly in Brooklyn, um and then was part of the move at the tail end of his career. And he was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1984 through a veterans committee. On the writer's ballot, he peaked at 47.9%, so that was pretty respectable. He peaked at five on the MVP ballot in 1949, but had eight top 10 MVP finishes and 10 all-star seasons.
00:08:46
Speaker
He wasn't the best hitter. Remember how short stops were back then. Had a career average of.269 with an OPS plus of.99 and finished with 2,170 hits, home runs, and runs in. but keep in mind, he did miss his and seasons due to military service. Spooky.
00:09:08
Speaker
this is where things get what did you just say you say spooky yes Only you would be scared by military service. yeah this is That's why I'm playing it up. Oh my God. But i want to throw this out here.
00:09:24
Speaker
He, despite missing three prime years, he had a career war of 68 and a half. Wow. Yeah. And you wouldn't expect that based on his offensive numbers.
00:09:37
Speaker
But three prime seasons, he probably finishes with 1,000 runs batted in. I mean, he'll probably have 170 home runs and maybe 24, 2,500 hits.
00:09:49
Speaker
What do we think? Is he a Hall of Famer? I'd like hear Zach go first on this one. Yeah. um ah you know it was You're saying it's debatable. I agree.
00:10:01
Speaker
But, you know, Mac, you like to say, If you're an all-star for around 10 years, that sounds you pretty damn good player. And as far as the historical context and stuff like that too, I think he's really important to the game.
00:10:14
Speaker
So i would i would go yes. I would put him in. Josh?
00:10:22
Speaker
I'm surprised. I'm surprised Zachy would say that. I am very surprised. um I think there's no question about it. I think he is absolutely a Hall of Famer. I mean, you look at that war alone, you you're taking out three years. you know I think we can be generous based upon where he was in his career and say that if he got five war in those three years, which was lower than he was getting at the time, he would have ended up with 85 war.
00:10:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about it. I mean, he was ah he was a top 10 MVP for pretty much his whole career. Was he the best player? No, but he was...
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, he was really, really good, for sure. I'm not even talking about any of the other things he did. Yes, because he's a Hall Famer. I didn't want to jump in and say they don't even measure defense back then, right? They're not measuring any of that, so we have no idea how good defensively he was.
00:11:13
Speaker
I mean, they eye-test him, but no, they don't have the bet. That's you know something else that we can think about, too. I agree. They don't have the defensive metrics 10 years ago that they have today.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, you're talking about you're talking about the 40s. No, I know. i know I know. We're lucky that they were able to keep track of how many plays the guy made in the field at that time.
00:11:38
Speaker
This is true. Fielding percentage is about all you can get, and even that's questionable. Right. In terms of seasons, though, he had one seven-war season, three six-war seasons, and then another five five-war seasons. So we're looking at nine seasons with five war or above.
00:11:56
Speaker
Wow. yeah's that's sort Yeah. Being generous saying that he got five war in those three, in each of those three seasons that he missed, he's going to end up with 85 war. Yeah. Come on.
00:12:09
Speaker
So I actually wrote out a whole thing, getting ready to go with Zach. Oh, God. Because I fully expected you to say no. Why? Just because of the military service? No, nothing do with the military service. I thought you were the hitting wasn't good enough. and you know I figured you might say yes as a contributor because of what he did to Jackie Robinson, but I didn't think he would meet your bar because small hall. And I i had a response ready to go. Let's hear Honestly, can you hear it? I'd like to hear i like to hear the response anyway. It basically was going to say, like, I understand a lot of your Hall of Fame takes.
00:12:42
Speaker
Um, even if I disagree with them, namely the last episode where we talked about the veterans committee, uh, I disagree with Bill White. We get it. This would be, if you said no, this would have been your worst hall of fame take I've ever heard.
00:12:57
Speaker
Um, and I was, I fully expected it to come in. So I'm very happy that you didn't. I'm dumb, but I'm not that dumb. I'm very happy about that. Yes, PeeWee Reese is a Hall of Famer. Like Josh said, was he the best pure player? He is a Hall of Famer. He's a borderline Hall of Famer. I understand why it took a while.
00:13:16
Speaker
I do honestly think that he probably should have been, and we talked about the difference between a writer's ballot and a Veterans Committee ballot Hall of Famer last time. He should have been a writer's ballot. I wonder how many of those voters held the fact that he was so kind to Jackie Robinson against them.
00:13:33
Speaker
You know? There's got to be at least some of them. That's a good point. That's a really good point, yeah. Especially cause yeah like, think about Hank Aaron wasn't unanimous, and some of them were race-related. Wooly Mays didn't get unanimous. yeah Some of those are race-related.
00:13:46
Speaker
And they're well after Pee Wee Reese. So, I wonder how that... resonated with some of the old crotchety writers. And now we kind of have the opposite effect where people spread other, the opposite beliefs and now it's getting held against them. It just shows how the standards have kind of changed in terms of the character clause.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, he peaked at 47.9% in his third to last ballot in 1976. Got inducted pretty shortly after his run though. He finished in 1978, got elected in 1984. didn't wait too long.
00:14:19
Speaker
so he didn't wait too long um But, yes, he's a clear yes to me. um I'm glad he got in before he passed away. He was a living Hall of Famer for 15 years. um I have him level one, number 14 at shortstop ah between Joe Sewell, who we talked about as the guy who never struck out, and Alan Trammell.
00:14:39
Speaker
which I regret it. I regret it Remember what I told you in the last pod that I expanded? But when you look at the cover, once you put him in, yeah, yeah.
00:14:50
Speaker
Barry Larkin I put in, and i feel good about that one. Alan Trammell and Barry Larkin's careers are identical. I'm not as against Alan Trammell as I used to be. Okay, okay.
00:15:03
Speaker
I think Barry Larkin's a clear Hall of Famer, and they're dead even in terms of their stats. I don't think it's awful. I think it's awful that he got in over other guys on that ballot, but I don't think it's awful that he's in it.
00:15:17
Speaker
as ah As a war truther, i can't I can't say no to either of those guys. Oh, speaking of war, ah being as it's December 17th, happy birthday, Chase Utley. oh Are you kidding me right now?
00:15:31
Speaker
What is it? Dude, you have a shrine? Like, what is wrong with you? saw you, Chase. saw you, Chase, because we are so much alike. You have great hair.
00:15:43
Speaker
You know, please tell me you guys know that reference. yeah yeah Yeah. I know you never watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, but that's a great show. I am sure our relationship would be a real home run.
00:15:55
Speaker
Love, Josh. What are you... you see your Zodiac sign or something? Like, Jesus. No, I saw it. I scrolled through. followed the Twitter account. I had Hall Fame only. It's fantastic. I post all the stuff about Hall Fame and why you should be in Hall Fame. And they were talking about it was his birthday today.
00:16:13
Speaker
Amazing. I love your hair. You run fast. Do you have a good relationship with your father? Me neither. these are all just robert remember and only Remember, there's only 28 players that have had 1,700 games to second base. Oh my god. Of those 28 players, Utley ranks first, stolen base percentage, 6th in home runs, 6th in stats me. 7th in OPS and 7th in WPA.
00:16:38
Speaker
What a joke this is. What do you mean? This is not a joke. This isn't even his episode. Get out of here. I'm talking about 1940. 1941. Get it right. God.
00:16:51
Speaker
Sang, I can talk about Chase Utley. Screw you. Oh my god. So... You know, when – I'm sure we're going to talk about the Hall of Fame of the current announcement with Jeff Kent getting in later.
00:17:05
Speaker
if We got to cover it. But Dale Murphy had a big campaign online, and a lot of people think that that campaign was a little too much and turned some of the writers off. I now get it.
00:17:19
Speaker
I get it. i Sherm, from every episode from now on. Are you going to tell me that turned you off, Mr. Carlos Delgado? i so i'm not Am I talking about Carlos Delgado right now? I talked about him during the podcast. Thank you. He belonged in.
00:17:35
Speaker
every It's not his birthday. I'm just saying happy birthday to the guy. What do you want me to tell you? ah so when I don't know what Carlos Delgado's birthday is. If you scroll through Twitter and somebody said it, you may maybe you'd know it.
00:17:46
Speaker
All right, fine. June we'll talk to Carlos Delgado. There we go. That means we have to be recording on June 25th then. Zach, it in your calendar. Put it in my calendar. and Perfect.
00:17:57
Speaker
June 25th, recording. Be there, be square. He's going to start spouting random ugly stats every time a second baseman gets mentioned. This is this is freaking terrible. Well, we have another second baseman coming. too you want me to, I can't because we're at the bottom. No. I can't.
00:18:10
Speaker
So let's talk New York Yankees who won in 1941. Manager Joe McCarthy, six title and seven pennants. You know what to do.
00:18:22
Speaker
6-7. Bill Dickey. Sixth appearance, sixth ring. He struggled here in this series, though. He went 3-for-18 with a double and a run batted in. He hit a total of 167 with a 508 OPS. Level 1, number 9 catcher between Carlton Fisk and Mickey Cochran.
00:18:39
Speaker
Joe DiMaggio, fifth appearance, fifth title, 5 for 19, all singles with a run batted in and a run scored. Not great. 263 batting average, 596 OPS, but he's still the level 5, number 4 center fielder between Trish Speaker and Mickey Mantle. So he's got that going for him. And he married Marilyn Monroe or dated Marilyn Monroe. I don't know which. So good for him.
00:18:59
Speaker
Second baseman, Joe Gordon. Third appearance, third ring. He actually came up in our Hall of Fame episode in one of Josh's outly stats. Wait, can we go back to Maryland? Oh, my God.
00:19:10
Speaker
Yeah. That's impressive. You didn't know that? No, I didn't know about that. Oh, this. i You guys didn't know that? Oh, my God. I forgot, yeah. I didn't know that at all. It was associated here with JFK, to be honest with you. Yeah, same. Same.
00:19:25
Speaker
Let's come over. He's been on the road for years. Oh, no, not for years. He had a brief but intense marriage in 1954. Yeah, there you go. But so they were the country. Even back then.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, ah Joe Gordon, third appearance, third ring. He absolutely dominated in this series, which gave Josh some ammo because Zach voted against him as well. We get it. 500 batting average with a 1.595 OPS. 7 for 14. And if we talk the full series, he hit a cycle, had a home run, a triple, and a double.
00:19:58
Speaker
I don't know how many times we've had that when we've done these episodes. I don't remember any other time. He also had seven walks. So Bobby Abreu would be really proud.
00:20:09
Speaker
And five runs batted in. Level one, number 19, second basement between Red Sheehan D'East and Bobby Doerr. Red roughing. Sixth appearance, sixth ring. Through that one ah that one run complete game. Five strikeouts, three walks, and he remains in the basement. And we have a fun debate on our hands, boys.
00:20:29
Speaker
Welcome to Championship or Bust, Mr. Phil Rizzuto. A beloved announcer with the Yankees and had a distinguished Hall of Fame playing career as well.
00:20:40
Speaker
Should he be there? Well, we shall find out. Is he a Hall of Famer? This series was a struggle for him. He had two for 18 with three walks, but this was his first ring of seven and his first pennant of nine.
00:20:51
Speaker
So he has plenty of time to warm up. He was elected in the class in 1994 after peaking at 38.4% in his final year on the writer's ballot. He won the 1950 MVP after finishing second in
Yankee Figures and Hall of Fame Candidacies
00:21:04
Speaker
1949. But those were his only top five MVP finishes. He had one sixth place finish and then a few down ballot ones aside from that.
00:21:11
Speaker
He led the league in no stats except for war in 1950. And he finished with war on his career. He had career rate stats of 273, 351 on then 1,588 hits, 38 home runs, and 563 runs batted Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:21:25
Speaker
Who would like to go first? Sherm, you go with the sun. No.
00:21:31
Speaker
thirty eight home runs and five hundred and sixty three runs batted in is he a hall of famer who would like to go first char you go of the son
00:21:43
Speaker
um no Any reason why? A a lot of reasons, honestly. Oh, God. Don't do this to me. ah What do you mean, don't do this to you? He's like a beloved Yankee.
00:22:00
Speaker
I didn't say he wasn't. It doesn't make him Hall Famer. I mean, where do I start, man? It's just the numbers are just not... They're not there.
00:22:13
Speaker
I'm... He didn't play long enough. The war is low. the total or Every total is low. It's a 270 hitter. Yes, he did win the MVP. The one odd season that he like became God. i don't know I don't know why he hit 50 points higher one year. ah you must say i don't know. That's so weird. thought i just play His playoff numbers are equally awful. I mean, yeah, he was involved in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 World Series, but he hit below of them.
00:22:46
Speaker
He blew up 150 in three of them. and That's terrible. Might as well not have even been playing. Actually, probably would have been better if he wasn't playing. Yet they still won.
00:22:58
Speaker
i mean...
00:23:02
Speaker
Okay. I also want to point out while you're continuing and and pausing, your the career rate stats for the playoffs were 246, 355, 295 slugging. 295 slugging and 650 OPS in 52 games. I just want to throw that out there as we continue.
00:23:24
Speaker
i mean, yeah, I just i can't i can't get behind this one. Zach? Not as a player, at least. Yeah, this is, Mike, you mentioned throwing in Peewee Reese as a contributor. I'd absolutely put Rizzuto in mine as a contributor for his announcing career and just being associated with those championship Yankees.
00:23:42
Speaker
But as a player, Shermer already did most of the work for me. I would say no, the stats just aren't there, and it and it pains me to say that. um But, I mean, you said yourself. He led the league in in in nothing except for war that one year.
00:23:56
Speaker
So i I can't put a guy in. I just can't do it. So do you want me put you down as contributor and or yes? Contributor. You want me to put down as contributor. So I'll mark him a yeah ah contributor.
00:24:08
Speaker
Okay. ah i You can also mark me as a contributor. I'd also like to say that his his OPS plus for his career, Phil Rizzotto, is 93, which means he was below an average player. ah So you're both voting yes as a contributor.
00:24:23
Speaker
I would vote him as a contributor, but not as contributor. absolutely. um This is the first time when I block someone from getting in the Hall of Fame. Wow. Yeah. It's funny because you were bragging about that couple hours ago.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah. What? You were bragging about that, that you've never been the one to block somebody a couple hours ago. I expected this to be the first one. That's why I brought it up. Well, wait, what do you have against his announcing career?
00:24:48
Speaker
It's legendary. i I think it is legendary. If you want to give him the Ford Frick Award, that's what that's made for. i mean i mean, he did a song, Mike. I mean, what other announcer did a song? I think that's enough.
00:24:58
Speaker
If you want to put him in for the – listen, it's the second Vince Scully, Bob Uecker, Harry Callis, yeah Ernie Harwell, Jack Buck, Mel Allen all have plaques. I'm happy to give Rizzuto a plaque.
00:25:12
Speaker
Until then, it's a no. I mean, Ford Frick, yeah, I'm all for it. But the problem is, and I know we've talked a little bit about the extra credit stuff, and we did it with – I'll go through the contributors that we have on here. So we've elected four non-players because we haven't really done managers much.
00:25:30
Speaker
but Actually, five. Bill Clem, Bill White. Goat. Lou Piniella, manager, not really in this conversation. Bill Clemson, umpire, not really in this conversation. Huey Jennings, who we talked about in 1922, and left the O'Doul, who went to help train Japanese players.
00:25:46
Speaker
Bill White was the first African-American president of a league in any sport. These are guys who really... like made a true mark on the game of baseball. Now I believe Vin Scully, Bob Euchre, guys like that should have plaques. Like if you go above and beyond the Ford Frick thing, you should have a plaque in Cooperstown. Would anyone really be upset having Vin Scully sitting next to CeCe Sabathia? I wouldn't, but that's not the Hall Fame we have right now.
00:26:16
Speaker
I... i do great on a curve with guys who have well-rounded careers. I did it with Gil Hodges. Gil Hodges was a borderline hall of fame player. Doesn't have the saber metrics. We'll talk about Gil Hodges in a few years.
00:26:28
Speaker
um I put him in as a contributor, but he also managed the 1969 miracle Mets to their first world series. That's something that I can get behind a little more. This to me, putting Rizzuto in as a contributor makes me think we should put Fernando Valenzuela in as a contributor as well.
00:26:47
Speaker
And we didn't. Fernando Valenzuela was a bilingual announcer. He brought a of fans. But he wasn't getting voted on for can being a contributor. Right.
00:26:58
Speaker
But yeah we all wrote him off real quick. Never really thought – never really put much into that. But we weren't voting on him as a contributor. So we're – understand your point, but that wasn't the vote we were getting. That was just a player, yeah. It was it was a vote as a player.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah, but the writer they don't do that because that's how Hodges got in. And Jim Cott had an announcing career, but Jim Cott also won 16 gold gloves. Well, they can do whatever dumb stuff they want to do. We were voting him as a player.
00:27:24
Speaker
So, I mean, Jim Cott is a 16-time gold glove winner. He was an announcer. People say that the announcing career bumped him up. But if you're a 16-time gold glover, I don't care what position you're playing. How are you not in the Hall of Fame?
00:27:38
Speaker
So I, I don't see it. I mean, the one thing I will say is I think he is an example of someone staying relevant in the sport, getting a swell of sentimental support, getting in for those reasons.
00:27:50
Speaker
And, you know, I'm, I was gonna say this, maybe unpopular. Clearly it isn't the hall of fame. I'm kind of cool with guys getting in who were below the line, but are historically significant at times. I kind of anticipated you guys both to go know here.
00:28:03
Speaker
Um, so I, I really had no feel on the pulse tonight. Um, But, you know, guys like Gil Hodges, guys like Bill Mazeroski, was a no on Mazeroski when we get to 1960. But, you know, I can understand the whole having a place for someone like that.
00:28:20
Speaker
I just can't get there with Rizzuto. I respect it. And you made a good point that if he were to be in our contributors, I think it looks like he'd be the weakest one. So, like, I get that. I mean, it depends. like The problem is like contributors, I feel like you have to be clearly above in so like you have to be above average in something. Rizzuto was beloved by Yankee fans. How much did he transcend outside of that?
00:28:47
Speaker
Because at that point, are we going to put Sterling in Hall of Fame?
00:28:54
Speaker
like are we gonna put john sterling in the hall of fame Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah. At what point? Where does it stop? You know, like, nowun's your problem and I'm kidding but i joking. I was like, what about Bob Shepard? Honestly, I, I knock a lot to you in terms of contributors. I have Bob Shepard on my list.
00:29:13
Speaker
I mean, i don't know, dude. So like I put Scully on my list, make it in as a Ford Frick winner. But he's not. they don't work Isn't that the award they just gave to Joe Buck?
00:29:25
Speaker
Yes. That award means nothing anymore. Scully already has it. But they're not. They don't vote on those guys. that's So if you're you're giving it to Joe Buck, that award is dead. If we're talking about ignore it. ever again But that's the problem. If we're talking about well-known connection to baseball, well-known announcer. That's for sure.
00:29:46
Speaker
How long? Well, if we put Rizzuto in. for his contributions as an announcer, how do we not put Joe Buck in? Even though we don't like him because he's terrible. That becomes very much like, do we like this guy as an announcer?
00:30:02
Speaker
Oh, he gets in. I see where you're going. And maybe our Yankee bias is just showing just because I used to read so much about him and going to Miami Park and all that. I really know that he was really important to the Yankee organization.
00:30:15
Speaker
um So maybe that's just clouding my judgment a little bit. I just want to implore you for a minute about that Yankee bias that you brought up. Yeah. We had an episode where we talked for an hour and 40 minutes couple weeks ago.
00:30:29
Speaker
Did you vote for Don Mattingly? I did not, no. And you go for Andy Pettit. oh Wow. who Okay. So you're fine with the historical Yankee bias. hu I don't know, guys. I see. That you watched or that you know well. Mikey coming with the receipts here.
00:30:48
Speaker
So, i listen, I'm off. but My point is. Go for the jugular. You voted no on Mattingly when we did. Is he a Hall of Famer? Like straight up yes or no, where it wasn't a ballot limit.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah. Straight up. You had room on your ballot. You picked four guys and you did not include them and you have no problem with steroids. Yeah. Are you going to take this? yeah No, he's spitting facts. when It's not a shot. I'm just. No, it isn't great. I love that. I'm loving every second of this. It's not intended as a shot in the slightest. It should be. Yankee bias is getting me.
00:31:22
Speaker
like And listen, Phil Rizzuto, Yankee great. No question. But it there's so many Yankee greats. Honestly, I'm not against Bernie Williams being in the Hall of Fame. I bet good money you wouldn't vote for him.
00:31:34
Speaker
Burn, baby burn. I'm not against Jorge Posada for the Hall of Fame. What? I think there's a – when you compare him to Buster – listen, we're going to about Buster Posey next year.
00:31:46
Speaker
Compare his numbers to Jorge Posada. Oh, boy. ahha That'll be real fun. ahha We're going to talk – we're going to have a lot of these conversations. and this This does sound interesting.
00:31:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that sounds real good. I almost wish we could just fast forward to that, but I know we can't. But what I'm saying though is like, at what point is the, like, if we're doing Yankee bias, there's so many guys on the Yankees and even the Mets that I think I kind of have a little soft spot for that I would put in before Phil Rizzuto or Phil Rizzuto was on the outside looking in.
00:32:20
Speaker
Elson Howard could be in that conversation. His career, Phil Rizzuto's career is very similar to Elson Howard's duration and Elson Howard also has an MVP. Wait, sorry. I know Elson Howard's in Monument Park. Is he in the Hall of Fame? He is not. And he probably shouldn't be, but he has less than 1,500 hits. He's at 1,491. He was a catcher. He won an MVP, and he had 12 All-Star appearances. also So I had 20
00:32:45
Speaker
27 war. wow He also had three top 10 finishes. The same as Phil Rizzuto. No, he shouldn't be in either. I agree. So where does the Yankee bias stop? And if we're talking about contributors, Elston Howard. Yes. first bu Right. yeah So where does the contributor draw the line? No, you're making really good points, Mike.
00:33:05
Speaker
I mean, that's the problem. And it's weird for me to be the one saying, no, I'm, I'm stunned. Well, you know, You're just more educated right now.
Yankee Bias in Hall of Fame
00:33:14
Speaker
I didn't come with all this knowledge today. Yeah, I would love – a part of me wants to go yes now. I mean I like Phil Rizzuto. I have nothing against him. I don't want to come across like a hater.
00:33:24
Speaker
It's just I think that there's – Oh, Bill White at Mike. Come to the dark side. If he yeah if there were 15 Yankees – let's say Phil Rizzuto wasn't in the Hall of Fame. I'd probably rank 15 Yankees above him that aren't in right now and to get in.
00:33:37
Speaker
Definitely Posada. Definitely Guidry. Definitely Mattingly. Definitely Munson. This is a really fun exercise. Can we like- Probably Elson Howard. We should that. Bernie Williams. I think you might be getting little bit lost here because you're talking about guys solely based on their playing career.
00:33:55
Speaker
We're talking about somebody like Bernie Williams. Okay, fine. Let's compare Phil Rizzuto to Elson Howard. Phil Rizzuto, great announcer, distinguished announcer, fun announcer, beloved announcer.
00:34:07
Speaker
First African-American Yankee, Elson Howard. Most historic franchise in sports. He was the first African-American to play on the team, and he was a 12-time All-Star and an MVP.
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah. I mean – No, I would not vote for him. I wholeheartedly agree, but I don't see how you vote for one and not for the other. get it. If talking player versus contributor – I don't know if want to down that path.
00:34:33
Speaker
That's my point. That's why I'm a no on Rizzuto. I agree with you. I'm a no on Howard as well. But I can't see how I separate Rizzuto over Howard. If we're talking player contribution, well-roundedness, I think Howard clears him.
00:34:47
Speaker
He do. You know, if we're talking player and announcer, I know he didn't win an MVP. Are we going to put Bobby Mercer in that conversation? Are we going to Bobby Richardson yeah in that conversation? It's it's a slippery slope. You can't go down the rabbit hole with that. You're right. you're right I get it.
00:35:04
Speaker
So – I go no, regretfully. I i like Rizzuto a lot. i You heard my whole monologue. Yeah. You heard the song. You heard the song. That's why he gets my vote.
00:35:16
Speaker
I get it So does... um i mean That's the thing. is like I had understand your point. and you're like Well, this guy was you know a team legend. This guy was on a song, Mike.
00:35:27
Speaker
Oh, my God. Everybody knows it. um So was Tyler Hero. I get it. I get it. ah So, yeah, I mean, that this was a tough conversation to have. i didn't expect to be the only no. I expected to be one of two yeses with Pee Wee Reese. I was just way off on what you guys are going to say tonight.
00:35:50
Speaker
Well, when we you know, when we surprise you, I think we make for really good podcast. Yeah. I don't know about this we stuff. It's mostly Zach. Well, i want I hope that Zach, I hope that that makes you consider Andy Pettit next year.
00:36:02
Speaker
It will not. You will have room on your ballot. And it won't matter anyway. yeah It doesn't matter i'm not voting for It doesn't matter. You can't get 10 – that's the thing. It shouldn't be about, oh, I have room on my ballot. It should just be what you think.
00:36:14
Speaker
I agree. I agree agree with that statement wholeheartedly. hope Let me just make this clear. You're saying that just based on – with Phil Rizzuto's contribution to the game, you'd rather have Phil Rizzuto with a plaque than Andy Pettit.
00:36:24
Speaker
No, no. Now that you've gave him given me all that, no, I would not at this point, no. Okay. So if you're saying no to both, fine. Wait, are you changing your vote now?
00:36:36
Speaker
No, i't I don't need to change my vote. i just You just said... Did I hear that wrong? No, no. No, you're right. Did I get it wrong? Did he change his vote? I don't know if I can change it, so at this point it's irrelevant.
Yankees Offseason Strategy
00:36:51
Speaker
I mean, doesn't... well, you changed your vote in the past. We could institute another Zach rule if he's allowed to change his vote. No, no, we're not going to change his vote. That's what I'm saying. What did you say? I'm saying we can institute a new rule, the Zach rule, where you're allowed to change your vote if Mike yells at you for 10 minutes.
00:37:09
Speaker
what
00:37:11
Speaker
No, got to keep it authentic. But at the same time, I don't know how much it matters if it doesn't change his Hall of Fame status. or Bill White feels a little cheap. Yeah, we needed to fix Bill White because that was me being stupid. Yeah, that was egregious.
00:37:24
Speaker
It was absolutely egregious. But look, voters didn't put him in either, man. So what I can't really blame you. No, can't. No, you can blame me for not doing my research like a bozo. This is what happened.
00:37:36
Speaker
But yeah, Elson Howard's another guy like Bill White to me. I'd put Bill White above him, but if I'm going to put in guys like that, I'd go Elson Howard before Phil Rizzuto.
00:37:49
Speaker
That's it for the Heat Hall Famer, though, so feel free to jump to whatever. We're fire tonight, boys. Holy cow. Yeah. What we're going to do is cool the stove by i'm talking about all the moves the Yankees have made. Oh, wait.
00:38:03
Speaker
What do you mean? signed Trent Grisham to $22 million a year. Get us screw up our whole offseason plan, right? They signed two minor league pitchers. What do you mean?
00:38:14
Speaker
Thank God. We knew I was going find half our roster that we didn't want. Yeah, wait. I wanted to – yeah, can we chat about this? So we're not going to go – I'm not going to bore you guys with all the details. Everybody knows Pete Alonso, Orioles, Nimmo gone, Diaz walked. They signed Yankee sloppy seconds.
00:38:31
Speaker
Do we think – that we can judge Stearns right now. or and a yeah like when When is it fair to start judging these moves? I don't think he's done yet. so I think it's fair to judge the moves when spring training starts, just like every other I agree.
00:38:46
Speaker
I mean, no, I don't think he's done yet. he They're going to sign Bellinger. We all know it. Yeah. I think it's only a matter of time. But, I mean, I think the rumor is is that Boris is waiting for Tucker to sign before he does anything else. or It's probably true. Once Tucker signs, the dominoes will start falling.
00:39:04
Speaker
I'm just interested to see if Stearns completely pivots because he he died on this sword that pitching doesn' you don't have to pay pitching. And it did not work. Well, their problem is they got about nine infielders right now.
00:39:18
Speaker
So somebody's got to go. But we're seeing Lindor in some of those trade talks. We heard about the Padres for Tatis, and the Padres reportedly said he's not getting traded. Well, Padres wanted to give him Bogarts back just to get rid of that awful contract.
00:39:32
Speaker
yeah And I mean, Stearns is, I wouldn't say he's a great GM, but he ain't that dumb. He has a very good reputation. The problem is is that he's, because he revived the small market team, but it's a completely different skill set. Like not everybody, you know, Theo Epstein and, you know, Brian Cashman have a different set of goals than a guy like Billy Dean and David Stearns. Where these guys have this tiny budget and they have to create great players in the total of the collective unit.
00:40:02
Speaker
Meanwhile, you know, Stearns now has the luxury of getting to be Brian Cashman. And now he's choosing to take all of Brian Cashman's guys he doesn't want. And he still wants to play money ball.
00:40:15
Speaker
What are you doing? Yeah, that's where I was going with it in the chat earlier. when i like I feel like Soto was more of a Cohen move. like he like he Oh, yeah, that got done from Steve. And and this this is definitely you know Cohen giving the reins back to Stearns, and who knows if it's going to blow up in his face.
00:40:32
Speaker
I mean, ah let's be real, though. I think they're going to sign Bellinger, ah and then your outfield is pretty set. I mean, you've got to move an infielder, and it's going to happen. Somebody's going to go.
00:40:44
Speaker
Vientos, Beatty, Acuna. it's funny One of those guys is not going to be on the team, and they will probably get packaged for something better than they have.
00:40:57
Speaker
He's all about defense, right? But then you sign Jorge Polanco to play first base. Like what? That's very puzzling. don't get But Stearns did that, though, with like playing guys out of position. with It's not the exact same thing, but having Clay Holmes go from bullpen to starter.
00:41:18
Speaker
yeah it's He's... very willing to like experiment with that stuff. The question is that the Mets really need pitching, man. They kind have only, they've got, they've got the next generation of the, of the Harvey DeGrom Syndergaard where they're all going to come up with an, you know, a six month span and, and set the world on fire. Do they really need more pitching? I don i don't know. i don't know if they do.
00:41:38
Speaker
The problem is, is that I think the fans are not going to be okay with just getting Cody Bellinger after they just lost, you know, arguably the best closer in baseball or probably the second best closer in baseball. Yeah.
00:41:50
Speaker
And theirs their whole all-time home run leader who's still in his prime who was beloved yeah in that stadium. And andmo I think they're going to have to make some kind of splash just to throw the fans a bone. And the only real and it's going to be Bellinger.
00:42:05
Speaker
That's not a splash. up there talkwood That's a pivot that no one's going get hyped over unless you are just really... If you're truly the Yankee little brother, you'll get hyped over that. but you look it Maybe they signed Tucker then. I don't know.
00:42:18
Speaker
there's There's nobody else left. That's the thing. Unless you make a trade, there's nobody else left. That's the point I'm making. Tatis is a splash. But if they're saying he's a no, Acuna, Lindor, Tong...
00:42:34
Speaker
And some higher level prospect for Tarek Skubal, who says no. Detroit. No, they're dumb. They're going to get rid of him.
00:42:45
Speaker
Right. They don't want to pay him. Yeah. pay him whole other issue, by the way. That's nuts. Colton will pay him. Yeah. I think that's the splash. And that that's my question of, is Stern's going to pivot away from, you know, building the lineup and then not really worrying so much about pitching.
00:43:04
Speaker
and get him in the door. And if you get a guy like him in the door, the fans will be able to swallow losing Diaz and Alonzo. i think He's the only guy that you can swallow losing those guys if you're
Mets and Phillies Analysis
00:43:16
Speaker
a Mets fan. I'm less convinced that Detroit is actually not going to pay a school bowl as I was six months ago.
00:43:21
Speaker
ah Regardless, no, it's not going be the Mets.
00:43:27
Speaker
I think he'll Cohen will pay him. I didn't say it wouldn't. I just said it's not going to be the Mets. I mean, the other question is here with the Mets in particular is – Yankees East. question Yeah, the Yankees East. Are they – there's two possible motives here that we haven't really accounted for. Number one, maybe they're looking and going all in on the 2026 free agency class where Scoobles a free agent.
00:43:53
Speaker
And then they just outspend. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you have the 19 more years of Juan Soto, you don't have to win right now. I think Corbin Burns has an opt-out. Not that I know he was hurt, but if he comes back, that could be a guy.
00:44:08
Speaker
You're not wrong. The other motive is that maybe Steve Cohen thinks that this lockout going be longer than anticipated. And maybe it's going to happen.
00:44:21
Speaker
Maybe he knows, okay, we're not winning a title this year. I'm going sell. Because lot by the time the lockout, you know let's say the hypothetical lockout is there's no baseball in 2027. They start in 2028. Alonzo gets older. Diaz gets older. Maybe he's moving off these guys when he won't really have that title window where you would be signing them for. You wouldn't get Alonzo a five-year contract you know you're too bad.
00:44:45
Speaker
Dude, I don't – I really don't – after how it went last year, i i mean, yes, you could be mad as a Mets fan, but like –
00:44:52
Speaker
How do you miss the playoffs with the team that you have and then get mad that the owners like blow it up? Let's start again. This team was not good enough. Like, like, what do you want to do Run it back with the same team?
00:45:03
Speaker
I don't, I don't, that I don't understand that philosophy either. You're to run a guy with the same guys who, who failed to perform. Why? I did last year, and it didn't work. Don LaGreca went on a rant years ago. You guys know Don LaGreca, right? Yes, I do. Now he's doing PA work for the Devils. We used to be on with Michael Kay. He went on a whole rant about the Mets don't have a guy.
00:45:23
Speaker
Everybody else, everybody except for David Wright, this I believe David Wright was either still a player at the time or he just maybe forgot about him. I don't know. Everybody else went somewhere. Keith Hernandez was a partial Cardinal. Daryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden went to the Yankees. Tom Seaver was a red, et cetera. He said, the one guy we have is Ed Cranepool. And he went on a loud, angry rant. He was hysterical.
00:45:46
Speaker
Pete Alonso could have been that guy. He was that guy. first that played his full career with the Mets. Yeah. I mean, David Wright did, but he could have been that guy.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. So, think Alonso didn't break his back. Yeah, he would have been that guy. And Alonzo already broke the home run record. He's got at least five years. He could have trucked that record. he's gonna hit He might hit 500 home runs, and he's going to it somewhere else.
00:46:11
Speaker
In Camden, in the place where they just moved the wall back after moving it back in to move it then back out. It's not a good move for his career either, and that's another thing I was going to get into. But, know, it's...
00:46:24
Speaker
I think that that stong Met fans. I mean, it'd be one thing if you promised them this result. Like, let's say, you know, I'm trying to think of anyone. I mean, we don't really have anyone besides Aaron Judge right now that would really be in that tier. But, yeah you know, let's say Max Fried was a free agent and walked for nothing. But then we brought in Scooble, Tucker, and Valdez. All of a sudden, you could swallow losing Fried a little more.
00:46:50
Speaker
I mean, the Yankees soda walked and they signed... Bellinger and what's his face? Freed. Bellinger. Yeah. ultimate yeah Devin Williams. I mean, they pivoted.
00:47:04
Speaker
mean, they traded for him, but yeah.
00:47:08
Speaker
and i mean, yeah. I don't i mean, they're going to pivot. The Mets are going to pivot for sure. They're going pivot. But what is the pivot that the fans don't burn down Citi Field is my question. The fans want to burn down Citi Field when they're winning. I mean, come on.
00:47:20
Speaker
Let's be real. Yeah. Yeah, it's fair. I just don't think i don't think it's as dire as they're making it out to be.
00:47:30
Speaker
You're going to sign Bellinger or Tucker, and you're going to trade some infielder for something that's going to make the team better. Yeah. We have rookie pitchers coming up, some of whom have already proven that they're very good.
00:47:43
Speaker
i just i don't think it's time to you know yell at Cohen. He's not done. i agree I agree. He's not done, and you're right. The the free agency class... after the lockout, it's probably going be pretty good.
00:47:57
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but we can yell at Cashman. Oh yeah. I mean, sleep at wheel or a seat. didn't go to the winter meetings, right? He slept at home. He slept on the street.
00:48:08
Speaker
Yeah. right Yeah. The trash he is. Yeah. I don't know, man. I just think it's funny with the A. He isn't, there's just, there's just rumors swirling. Everybody's on the block. Um, They don't want to spend money, and the next day it's they're going spend money, and it's they don't want this guy, and then two days later it's a frontrunner for this guy. It's like, what? what do you what what Like nobody knows.
00:48:30
Speaker
Somebody just needs to step up and sign Tucker so everybody else can sign. I think the most interesting thing is that Murakami has like nine more days left to sign, and there are no rumors about where he's going.
00:48:46
Speaker
Oh, is that the third baseman? Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. I think his his ah posting ends on like the 26th. Wow. No rumors.
00:48:56
Speaker
Nothing. Wait, if no one signs him, how does that work? What happens? Pretty sure he just goes back to Japan. Oh, right. He still owns his rights. I mean, you're paying. When a player gets posted, you're paying that team to to take him to America.
00:49:11
Speaker
Right. So he probably goes back to Japan, stays Japan.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah. I think that stat that came out that he can't hit a hit a pitch over 93 might have. That's true. Do we want to switch gears to the other big free agent signing, Mr. Schwarber? We can go on a little.
00:49:36
Speaker
Should have been a red. What did you say? Should have been a red. I agree. Honestly, that would have been a good signing for the Reds. And the Pirates can hang a banner saying they they offered somebody a contract. look for them. i just The funny thing about it, other than the the the Pirates one, is that they offered somebody money, and then the Reds offered Schorber...
00:49:56
Speaker
all this money and gave him the key to the city last year. And then when they didn't get him, they went, we're just not going spend money in free agency. And everybody went, what do you mean not going to spend money? You just ordered this guy hundreds of millions of dollars and now you just, you don't want to spend it. What do you mean?
00:50:12
Speaker
That's so funny. mean, I didn't want to find that crazy. No, I do too. There's no pivot. It's like what we're talking about with the Mets that, you there's, you what's the pivot? Well, there is none.
00:50:25
Speaker
The Mets are going to sign somebody. though The Reds are just not going to sign anybody. Which is ridiculous, yeah. But with Schwarber, I don't think that contract ages well at all. No, no, I was going to say. Probably not, but he doesn't play the field anyway. so That's the nail in the coffin for this Phillies team. They're done. They're cooked.
00:50:41
Speaker
I'm just going to read you some of the contracts they have. $43 million dollars a year to Zach Wheeler until he is 37. Trey Turner is going to get paid $30 million dollars a year until he is 40.
00:50:54
Speaker
And he is 31. The Bryce Harper contract ages pretty well, actually. It's still... think he has seven years left. He's at 25 mil year. That's not too bad. No. For a guy like him.
00:51:06
Speaker
Just remember that Trent Grisham is only making $3 million dollars less than him this year.
00:51:12
Speaker
Oh, God. That's terrible. That's awful. So that's over $100 million dollars in one, two, three, four players. And this is without... Re-signing Real Muto, who they want to re-sign, who I don't. I mean, he made 23 mil last year. I was saying this off pod, too. He has to take a discount. There's no way he's going to making that money anymore. He fell off. he He's not good anymore, I'll tell you.
00:51:34
Speaker
Not to be a hater. He's just not that guy. um And Castellanos still has a year left. He's getting 20 mil. He also needs to go. This Phillies team is old.
00:51:45
Speaker
They're way too invested in older players. They got no prospects, really. They traded a lot of their prospects for Duran, which fun. Castellanos will go. If he doesn't get traded, he will get DFA'd. Oh, right, because they signed—what's his name? Garcia. bar the day Yes, he will be your starting right fielder. And he can actually, you know, field.
00:52:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, Castellanos is, like, statistically the worst fielder, like, ever. and hes they found that When they found out that he could not catch a ball running to his left, so they had a field they had to position him in the field— or i think it was the only one right. He couldn't catch a ball running to his right, so they positioned him in the field so he never has to run to his right.
00:52:19
Speaker
Yeah. Did you know that? It's not wild. Yes, yeah. I did hear about that when they were making their run. It's ridiculous, but, I mean, it worked for them. um And this is also with their young guy. Like, Stott's going to be a free agent in two years, so is Boehm.
00:52:32
Speaker
And um this is without paying Christopher Sanchez. They're screwed. They're screwed. This team is going to fall Rape Suarez again. Ranger Suarez is going to be – I like him a lot. I think I would love for the Yankees to pick him up. I know it's not gonna happen, but this team is cooked. That's all I'm going to say.
00:52:49
Speaker
They're done. The window's closed. What a shame. What a shame. Couldn't happen to an nicer city. u The Phillies are collapsing. The Mets are collapsing. The Braves are getting better.
00:53:03
Speaker
The Marlins are there.
World Baseball Classic Debate
00:53:07
Speaker
oop um Mikey, I wanted to bring this up to you. I know we talked a little bit about it off-pot as well. Kelly Jansen signs with the Tigers.
00:53:15
Speaker
Good for Kelly Jansen, bro. yeah Honestly, he at this point in his career, this is great to play on a team that at where it actually matters after playing on the Angels. I know, and I'm going to say, it's another shot for him to cement his Hall of Fame case.
00:53:34
Speaker
ah because he will be a Hall of Famer, despite how much you don't like him, Zach. He absolutely will. He's actually three saves away from being third of all time behind Trevor Hoffman. I was about to ask you that and bring that up, because i would I'm going to say this. I said this in the Hall of Fame pod. If you're going to ask me to vote for Jansen, Kimbrell, and K-Rod, I think I'd vote for Jansen out of those three, personally.
00:53:56
Speaker
I probably would also, but it's not ah you can only vote for one of them. I would go for Kimbrell, because Kimbrell was more dominant. Okay.
00:54:06
Speaker
But I would have K-Rod 3. Yeah, I'd vote for Jansen. So I think this is this pretty awesome for him. Took me longer to get to Jansen, but i I'm higher on him now than I was. I just put him on the list like a couple months ago.
00:54:23
Speaker
But now that I'm now that i'm in and I'm further in than I expected it to be. What else? and na Josh Naylor stays with the Mariners. That's a good deal for them.
00:54:35
Speaker
straight deal for them. Let's see if he actually keeps it up. A side note, I hate Josh Miller. Oh, because the Rock the Baby stuff? I just think he's another Jazz Chisholm kind of guy.
00:54:47
Speaker
he's you know The team's losing by nine runs and going to start showboating. i I just don't i don't understand that attitude. ah First of all, you're not that good. Second of all, you no know the time and place.
00:55:06
Speaker
But yeah, the rock the baby thing when you're you know down by four runs in the eighth inning and they're hitting solo home run. Yeah, it's like, I mean, what are you doing? I don't know.
00:55:17
Speaker
What's his name? Merrill Kelly back with the Diamondbacks. Eh. Eh. Yeah. Kind of who cares. We could speak about that. You know, we just want to chat about the big ones. um Sherm, did you want to bring up your disdain for the whole players not playing for Team USA thing or no?
00:55:36
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I mean, we haven't seen a ah full roster yet, and they're solely adding guys to the roster. i you know they ah They said that they offered Freed a position and Freed declined.
00:55:49
Speaker
Will I have legacy Freed pitch for USA? i don't know. i mean, obviously, yes, he was one of the best American-born pitchers, but if he gets hurt, the anchors are kind of Exactly, yeah, exactly. there's ah So i I am torn there.
00:56:02
Speaker
um I will wait to see ah how the rest of the roster rounds out. Because like they said, Nolan McLean is going to pitch today. who i I kind of like that move. But then they also said, Clay Holmes is going to pitch, which I don't like that move at all. then like an hour later, they're like, Joe Ryan's going to pitch. who i who I like that move. Did Scoogle commit to the team?
00:56:25
Speaker
I feel like they asked him, but he never like a I don't think he officially committed. Skeens did. Skeens did, but oh I feel like he was asked and he said yes, but it was never an official thing.
00:56:38
Speaker
So I'm curious of what that's about.
00:56:43
Speaker
Regardless, I think you need another starter that's you know that caliber. but we cannot We cannot be going out there with ah with Nick Martinez as our number two starter like they did in the last one.
00:56:57
Speaker
yeah a guy that's you know A guy that's a six starter on the Reds is your number two starter in the world baseball class. You just cannot be doing that a second time. Pathetic. It's disgusting even. I got to be honest, though. how How hurt were you on a scale of 1 to 10 when Shohei struck out Trout?
00:57:14
Speaker
I was pretty mad. Okay, fine. I knew it was going to happen, so I couldn't be that mad because you could see it coming, but I was pretty mad. How mad were you when Freddie Freeman hit the walk-off Grand Slam in Game 1 of the World Series? I was livid, ah but that was also because I wanted Aaron Boone to get thrown into the river and drowned.
00:57:37
Speaker
Okay. um How mad were you when Aaron Judge dropped the fly ball on center field? Unfortunately, I was not watching the game at that time. What? got it Because I was at the Islander game in Columbus, and we turned and I turned the radio on as I got into the car. it happened It happened between the time I left the stadium and got in the car, so I missed it.
00:57:57
Speaker
i got um My point here is is that... but Or be that worried about the World Baseball Classic. I'd rather Freed not end up getting Tommy John surgery. I'd rather Freed not end getting Tommy John surgery. You don't want to repeat it, Edwin Diaz, you know, snapping his ankle.
00:58:10
Speaker
He can stay home. He can get other pitchers aren't on the Yankees. Thank you. Yes. If we lose the World Baseball Classic, I can sleep at night. Okay. ah Great. So, again, like I said, I'm not that torn up about Freed not being on the team, but I would like them to have some other top caliber starting pitchers that aren't Yankees.
00:58:27
Speaker
That's fine. Okay. So, let's go. We'll commit. Perfect. great Who else is good that's American? i don't know off the my head. Who can be the sacrificial lamb? don't know. He's already dead.
00:58:39
Speaker
I mean, yeah. Nola? Yeah, try it. Pass. Oh.
00:58:47
Speaker
Hunter Brown. What about Crochet? hey Crochet's a good one. Crochet can go. Yeah, he can definitely go. can definitely go. We should go there and start telling him he should do it. Yeah, he can do it.
00:58:59
Speaker
He can go. He should do it. Yeah, agreed. He loves baseball, man. Prove how much you love baseball. Go to the World Baseball Classroom.
Yankees Player Signings
00:59:06
Speaker
100%. But you need, I think, yeah, I think you need another guy like that on the roster, regardless of where he comes from.
00:59:15
Speaker
Mark Leiter Jr. can go. No, he can't. I really hope he doesn't. Yeah, he signed with the Athletics. Look at the Athletics spending money on ex-Yankees again. Yeah.
00:59:26
Speaker
Speaking of ex-Yankees, I feel like Zach has missed the biggest one. Sonny Gray. Oh, clown. Clown show. Clown show.
00:59:37
Speaker
Dude, I mean, this has got to be one of the wildest stories I've heard in a long time where – Gray got traded to the Yankees and in front of the media and said how much he loves it and he always wanted to be a Yankee and this is the greatest thing ever. And then he pitched like an absolute buffoon for two years until they finally traded him away.
00:59:57
Speaker
And then now that he's, you know, i gotta what, three, four years later now, he gets traded to Boston and he's talking about how he hates the Yankees and he never wanted to be a Yankee. And all the Yankees fans were like, what? What do you mean you never wanted to be Yankee? This is not what we heard.
01:00:14
Speaker
I mean, you know you know, you played like crap when you were here. And then Cashman's like, no, yeah, that's actually true. Like, what what what do you mean that's true? He's like, yeah, he told me he didn't want to play here.
01:00:27
Speaker
Then why'd you get him? Yeah. And then Cashman's, you know you know, he's running damage control saying, well, we didn't know that at the time. And and and Tony Gray told him that his agent told him to say something like that so that he could, you know,
01:00:40
Speaker
do a better infreed agency or whatever, you know, whatever garbage that they were saying. And I forget who it was. I think it was Zach Britton was on a podcast and Britton was like, no, yeah, that's true.
01:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, I joined the Yankees year if they traded him. I think it was Britton. And he was like, and Cashman got into the locker room and was like, listen, if you don't want to be here, you got to tell me because we will get you out of here immediately because we're not going to stand for that garbage.
01:01:05
Speaker
yeah It's true. This has actually happened. Yeah, nuts. He's a clown for that. I mean, I mean i couldn't stand Sonny Gravity. was Yeah. so I got nothing good to say about him, so it's fine.
01:01:18
Speaker
Happy he's in Boston. I can root against him. Worried. Feelings mutual, Sonny.
01:01:28
Speaker
That's really
Hall of Fame Results and Jeff Kent's Induction
01:01:29
Speaker
all I had, guys. just wanted to mention the big signings and all that good stuff. good men One hit Hall of Fame results? Oh, yes, I would love to. All right. So...
01:01:40
Speaker
so The Baseball Hall Fame announced the results about three, I'd say three days after we posted our ah ballots. Just for the Veterans Committee, the regular committee has about 27 ballots in right now. We can definitely discuss that if you guys would like. There's one new ballot that just came out where Chase Utley got an ad from a guy named Chris Asenheimer. That's a great i think late name. i love that man. i loves that Shout out to Chris Asenheimer, added Chase Utley, and added K-Rod.
01:02:14
Speaker
So, good for him. What was the rest of his balance like? um He didn't vote for 100 pence or anything anything, did he? Carlos, he voted for 10. Carlos Beltran, Ryan Vaughn, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Jones, Justin Pedroia, Manny, A-Rod, K-Rod, Utley,
01:02:37
Speaker
And Omar Vizquel. Oh. Okay. I don't care about character claws. I'm conflicted. These people are so dumb.
01:02:49
Speaker
But he got Chase Utley's third game vote of the cycle, so that's good. We're 27 ballots in. um In terms of the Veterans Committee, though, we actually do know we will have a member of the class of 2026, and that is Jeff Kent. Jeff Kent got 14 out of 16 votes. We don't know who voted what. and Nothing's made public with this committee um other than who actually voted but not what they chose.
01:03:14
Speaker
Kent finished 14. The real shock was Carlos Delgado second place. Out of all those names we talked about, I guess Josh was right. Delgado has one of the best cases on the ballot. i I underestimated it. I really thought he would fall in the less than five tier.
01:03:28
Speaker
Delgado getting nine is really, really encouraging for 2031. guess it would be the class 2028 in December the class for 2029. Yeah.
01:03:39
Speaker
Um, the only thing is now we have four people who are getting removed from the ballot for that year. And it's Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Gary Sheffield, and Fernando Valenzuela. So now they have to put four new guys on, actually five new guys on because Ken's in.
01:03:55
Speaker
And that might cause a little difference in that. But Delgado getting more votes than Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly was a stunner to me. I really thought this was his year.
01:04:08
Speaker
That is crazy. So we now have a Hall of Fame with Jeff Kent and without Barry Bonds, which I said on the pod as I was voting. I felt very weird about it.
01:04:21
Speaker
I did it, but I felt very weird about it.
01:04:26
Speaker
And, you good for Jeff Kent. I don't really have a problem with him being there. But at the the we can't argue about the fact that he is a Hall of Famer because of a steroid user.
Hall of Fame Voting Challenges
01:04:39
Speaker
Feels icky, right? Doesn't feel we may not have been. I agree. but i do i just love it fitting my narrative that Kent's in the Hall of Famer. But I am happy that one person got in over nobody at all.
01:04:53
Speaker
So I am happy that someone got in. But when we look at that ballot, right, there's 16 voters. They can vote for up to three. So that's 48 votes out there. Kent got 14. Delgado got nine.
01:05:04
Speaker
Murphy and Mattingly got six. That means that Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, and Fernando split a total of 13 votes if they even got those 13 votes.
01:05:16
Speaker
They're dead.
01:05:20
Speaker
yeah Probably. It is over. Sad. Very sad. um And what we learned here is that, you know, the writers somewhat came around. They got a majority of the vote. They peaked at like 65%.
01:05:32
Speaker
I don't think you're ever going to get a body of voters ah voters that are going to 75% say they get in. And that's the tricky part with the Hall of Fame. Because the 65% are going to say adamantly they are top, the the best hitter pitcher, one of, of all time.
01:05:47
Speaker
And then you're gonna have you're always going to have those 33% to 35% say, absolutely not. I don't think they ever get in. It's really sad, yeah. And if they do, it'll be when we're all dead. Exactly.
01:06:03
Speaker
Which was very fitting for the Hall of Fame, very poetic. Yeah. Bonds will be in, we'll all be dead. Yeah. And none of this was this was all for nothing. Not to get morbid on you guys or anything, but yeah.
01:06:16
Speaker
So the current ballot right now is a little interesting. um Actually, a good amount of ads right now. I believe the leading net vote getter is Bobby Abreu. Are we serious right now? That's gross. so I don't think that's true. I think you read that wrong.
01:06:33
Speaker
This is flips from no Cs's, okay? Beltran and Burley both gain two. Oh, I'm sorry. Felix is leading voca the leading flipper. Six.
01:06:44
Speaker
Andre Jones and Bobby Abreu are second with four.
01:06:49
Speaker
They flip four in OCSs. Utley has three. Pedroia has three. So these are the guys who are trending upward. And in terms of actual percentages, Beltran has 81.5. Andre has 77.8. Utley has 59.3. of those will drop in percentages the further along we get.
01:07:04
Speaker
uly as fifty nine point three all of those will drop in percentages the further along we get It's not looking great for Beltran right now.
01:07:15
Speaker
I expected better. Oh, what a shame. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. i expected a lot better to start. He gained two, which is great. He's going need to gain like 30 and change.
01:07:29
Speaker
You know, with the new... I guess with first-time voters, it's going depend on that. But... eighty one He finished, his number fell 10% from the pre-announcement ballots to the announcement ballots.
01:07:45
Speaker
And he's at 81.5. So we're projecting him right now at about 72%.
01:07:55
Speaker
It might stall. I don't know. He might be another guy like Bonds and Clemens where his support hits its limit. That surprised me. He was so close, I feel like. That's actually... And it's kind of universally understood he's going to get in this year. Yeah. And maybe in listen, maybe I'm overreacting to a small sample size because there's two gains already out of 27 votes.
01:08:14
Speaker
But, know, I expected him to get some more gains that he didn't get. he actually lost the vote. that's Yeah, that's nuts too. Bill Center voted for just Andre Jones. Like what weirdos that you're going to take somebody off your ballot?
01:08:31
Speaker
So he he voted for Beltran and i think a couple of guys who got in last year, like Ichiro and Cece. So odd. He drops Beltran, his one holdover, and votes for Jones, who he never voted for before.
01:08:44
Speaker
So weird, dude. it's It makes sense. Make it make sense. Happy vote of Jones, but dude. No, weird. Weirdo. So that's the current thing. And our poll that we put up, shout out to everybody who voted for the poll, especially those who actually took it somewhat seriously. um Getting to look some of the ballot entries was funny. Like, c shout out to the guy who voted for Shin Choo Choo and the two guys who voted for Gio Gonzalez.
01:09:09
Speaker
One of them was just Gio Gonzalez. But we elected nobody. So Veterans Committee, Barry Bonds led the way with 56%. Roger had 50%. roger had fifty um Then it was followed by Don Mattingly, 39.3%, Fernando, 35.7%, Delgado, 27.4%, Sheffield, me and Josh. He got 10 votes.
01:09:33
Speaker
murphy twenty two point six so murphy was second to last and jeff kent was last at eleven point nine percent two of those votes were me and josh he got ten votes Two of them were us.
01:09:46
Speaker
um So interesting. We had a pretty good feel for what they but the voters were going to do. In terms the BBWA, Andrew Jones leads the way for our ballot with 62.8, followed by Felix Hernandez at 58.1, Beltran 50%, all others under 50.
01:09:59
Speaker
Wow. couple weird ones. Utley 54.7. Wright 27.9%. That's lot.
01:10:04
Speaker
wow a couple weird ones um uly fifty four point seven right got twenty seven point nine percents so what Mark Burley, 32%. What?
Public vs. BBWA Votes
01:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it turns out that the writers are actually not as bad as we thought. that's what i That was my takeaway. Oh, my God. yeah I mean, I don't want to insult our listeners. will insult them. The common person is apparently stupider than we thought.
01:10:29
Speaker
What we doing here? Mark Burley? Too much nostalgia and not actually thinking and just seeing a name and going, oh, I remember that guy, and slapping a vote on it. Which I think probably attributes to why the writers are a little better because you know they they might you know spend more than 35 seconds on it.
01:10:47
Speaker
One person got 0% and that was Daniel Murphy. Wait, who voted? How many did Hunter Pence get? Two votes, 2.3%. Omar Vizquel actually fell below the 5% line, only got four. So that was an interesting little one.
01:11:04
Speaker
I feel like Daniel Murphy is more deserving of a vote than 100 pence, though. I mean... No, I know. i guess people I guess people did take the character clause seriously in regards to some of the things Vizquel was accused of, though.
01:11:17
Speaker
That is interesting. Wow. Because he peaked at 50% at one point on the actual ballot. And now he's at 4% on ours.
01:11:31
Speaker
So thank you to those who voted. Hope you guys guys listened to the results. We apologize for the insults we hurled it your way, but like, wow. So I guess the the public is small hole than we, than, the writers are.
01:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think the three of us are better than the writers. And it seems like Dale Murphy has a very loud minority vote.
01:11:57
Speaker
Like, the people who want Murphy in are very passionate about Murphy being in, I being one of them. But it doesn't seem like he has the mass support.
Future Hall of Fame Candidates
01:12:04
Speaker
Same with Don Mattingly. ah It feels like their candidacies are – I feel like eventually they'll get in, but right now they just feel kind of dead.
01:12:14
Speaker
I wonder if they get on in three years.
01:12:19
Speaker
We shall see. Yeah. Because, you know. All we know is Delgado, Mattingly, and Murphy are eligible to return. Everybody else is done. Oh, no. What a shame.
01:12:32
Speaker
What shame. So, Schilling, Kenny Lofton, David Cohn, Keith Hernandez. Batter up. David Cohn. Keith Hernandez better get in. I agree with that.
01:12:44
Speaker
He'd replace Murphy as my number one pick. There you go.
01:12:50
Speaker
Thank God Zach can't vote for the guys he voted for this year. So he might actually, you know, oh my god have to vote for somebody better. Better? Don't say that. Would you vote for Keith Hernandez, Zach? I think I would. Gun to your head. You're voting for him. My gut reaction says yes. Bang.
01:13:05
Speaker
Bang. But you're so bad at this question. It's not even funny, dude. Did you not hear me? I said yes. Okay, good. um But knowing what they'll do, they'll just replace Bonds, Clemens, and Sheffield with McGuire, Palmeiro, and Sosa.
01:13:22
Speaker
You're probably right.
01:13:25
Speaker
Jeff Kent deserves to be in the Hall Fame more than Craig Biggio.
01:13:31
Speaker
Uh, uh, uh. I might throw up. Roll the outro. I'm going to throw up.
Lance Berkman and Ballot Complexities
01:13:42
Speaker
Listen, listen. 3,000 hits. 3,000 hits. Hold on, on.
01:13:48
Speaker
I do not condone that take. I just wanted to see you blow up, and it was worth it. No, now I'm mad. oh I will say for the record, on my Hall of Fame list, I do have Jeff Kent right to build the video.
01:14:01
Speaker
Michael! Yes! yes I have Jeff Kent 12. For what? I have Jeff Kent 12, I do. He won an MVP.
01:14:13
Speaker
He won an MVP. vizio's rate stats are ah His rate stats are significantly better. What? It has a 9 point higher batting average, a slightly lower on base, 70 point higher... His rate stats are worse!
01:14:32
Speaker
ah If by rate you mean like actual like setup stats, Kent has 80 more home runs in 500 less games. Okay, Bizzio's not a home run hitter. We this. Bizzio home run hitter. We know this.
01:14:50
Speaker
We acting like this is our minds. think appears everywhere. Oh, my God. Oh, okay. This is great. say Mike, i so thank you for this. Also, for the record, Zach, you love batting average, right? Yes.
01:15:01
Speaker
in the post see he So Ken has a higher batting average in the regular season. He was behind Barry Bonds. I don't disagree, but he had plenty of other seasons in other teams as well. Let's look at his batting average outside of San Francisco. Let's take a look at that. Okay, it's probably a little It is probably less, admittedly. Okay.
01:15:19
Speaker
His batting average in San Francisco for six years was 297. With the Dodgers was 291. Oh, that's good. oh remember jeff ah Remember, Craig Biggio's career batting average is 281.
01:15:31
Speaker
Dude, hold on. yeah yeah Your argument for against Ken is that he hit with Bonds. Dude, Biggio hit with Bagwell and Berkman. yeah And Berkman was great. Berkman was great. Bagwell's a Hall Famer. Yes, know. Berkman should be a Hall of Famer. I'm to say that.
01:15:46
Speaker
Oh, really? I have to look in that. I will go for that. have to look in that. I didn't put him on my list, but if he was on a ballot, I would absolutely vote for him. Interesting.
01:15:57
Speaker
Without blinking. And i I could be convinced on the list. Like, his rates are nuts. I'm just saying. 3,000 hits is a magic number. has I agree, but that you know I think they're both worthy Hall of Famers. I think Kent was better. I do. That's crazy.
Conclusion and New Inductions
01:16:12
Speaker
Berkman had an OPS plus of 144 for his career.
01:16:15
Speaker
wow He has four top five MVP finishes and six top 10 MVP finishes. What did he ever get past like a first year on the ballot? Did he hit the 5%? No, but he was on the ballot during that crazy time. So his ballot was 2019.
01:16:32
Speaker
Four guys got in that year. Moe, Halliday, Martinez, and Mussina. Wow. You still had Schilling, Clemens, Bonds, Larry Walker, Omar, Fred McGriff, Manny, Kent, Roland, Wagner, Helton, Sheffield, Pettit, Sosa, Andre Jones. Oh my. god Andrew Jones got 7.5% in his second year.
01:16:50
Speaker
Dude, they got to think of something better. like that That just screws over people. So Roy Oswald and Lance Berkman get nine votes total. Oswald's not a bad case either. I would like to work in here. I would also vote ah for Berkman. 100%. I would definitely, yeah, would look at it. Especially because he is a switch hitter. Lance Berkman. Yes.
01:17:12
Speaker
I'm typing it in. Yes, put it in. Put it in there. Zach, you can decide later and get back to us, but putting him in the box. Let me look up the stats. this will be that We'll call it the class of NA, like Curt Schilling.
01:17:24
Speaker
He and Curt Schilling will be together. I'll give He had a 52 war, 1,900 hits, 366 home runs. He had 290 in his career. He had 144 OPS plus. His OPS was 943. Yeah. Wow.
01:17:37
Speaker
his ops was nine forty three yeah He honestly has... And he was a switch hitter. He has as good stats as good as stats, if not better stats, than Delgado.
01:17:51
Speaker
and that's coming from me. Yeah, I would probably vote yes. I would go yes. Lance Berkman, welcome to the Chainsaw Us Hall of Fame.
01:18:01
Speaker
And that wraps up the 1941 episode of Championship Robust. Definitely did not go in the direction that we expected it to go. But congratulations to new Championship Robust inductees, Peewee Reese...
01:18:12
Speaker
and Lance Berkman. We now have 40 players inducted into the Hall of Fame. and five So welcome to the Hall of Fame, guys. Actually, correction, 39 players. Bill Klemman was on the wrong spreadsheet. But 39 players and five contributors. so And one on fire.
01:18:29
Speaker
Welcome to the Hall of Fame. We will see you guys next time.