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Episode 50 - CoB's HOF Class of 2026
16 Plays11 days ago
The ballots are in! The gang casts their respective votes for the 2026 Veterans committee and BBWAA ballot for this years HOF class.
We start with a tough veterans committee lineup and move through a weaker BBWAA ballot. Will anybody be inducted this year? Will any votes flip? Will Zach vote for a reliever?
Find out this and more on a PACKED new episode of Championship or Bust (just don't vote for Hunter Pence please)!
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Transcript
Hall of Fame Announcement
00:00:03
Speaker
Well, as Jack O'Connell gets to say every year, I'm calling to let you know that the baseball writers have elected you to the Hall of Fame. Congratulations.
Introduction to Annual Coverage
00:00:12
Speaker
What's up, everybody? Welcome to our third annual Hall of Fame coverage episode of Championship Robust with Mac, Zach, and Josh.
00:00:19
Speaker
This is admittedly a pretty weak writer's ballot this year, but it doesn't matter. I'm jacked up. I'm ready to run through a brick wall, as I always am for these episodes. And I think based on the conversations we've had off pod that the guys are too. So I guess we'll get
Discussion on Ballot Weakness
00:00:33
Speaker
right into it. Sounds like we want to start with the veterans first. We're both we're all cool with that?
00:00:38
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not quite as ready to run through a brick wall as you are, but we're here for it. Well, i'm I'm especially excited because of who's on this ballot, so I'm very, very excited for this discussion. um So just a little background before we start up. You can vote for up to three of the following eight names.
New Voting Rules Explained
00:00:54
Speaker
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Gary Sheffield, Fernando Valenzuela. And before we start with the votes, I was asked by Zach to mention a couple of notable rule changes that start this year.
00:01:11
Speaker
First, if any of these players, there are 16 voters on the committee, you need 12 to get in. If any of them receive less than five, they will not be considered again the next time they will be up for consideration in three years from now, which means they won't be allowed to be considered again for a minimum of six years. So anyone who gets less than five can't be looked at again until 2032.
00:01:36
Speaker
The committee is running a three-year cycle, so that'll be when that happens. This to me is actually a positive change because it means that – we talked off-pod about the snubs that are on this ballot. Kurt Schilling, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, Keith Hernandez, David Cohn. There's so many others that at least now we won't be seeing the same names over and over again, which something that I complained about on the last pod.
Criticism of Permanent Removal Rule
00:01:58
Speaker
So I was actually happy about this change. But the Hall of Fame can't get everything right. They always have to have some kind of screw up. So the second new rule is if a player gets less than five votes twice, they're done for good.
00:02:13
Speaker
They cannot be considered ever again. I can't say enough how much I hate that rule. It's important to note that the last time Bonds and Clemens were on a committee ballot, they received less than five votes.
00:02:25
Speaker
But the Hall of Fame has come out and said that that doesn't count. It's starting effective this election. So basically, if they get less than five now, they get one more shot in 2032.
Debate on Voting Strategy for Bonds and Clemens
00:02:38
Speaker
If they get put up again, which is not a guarantee considering the names I just rattled off to that didn't make this ballot. If they get put up again in 2032 and they get less than five votes a second time, they're gone.
00:02:51
Speaker
So to me, this seemed like a way to permanently end the conversation between Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that this way they can finally you know brush that off their shoulders for good. you know We didn't see it. It didn't happen. We can forget all about that now.
00:03:05
Speaker
So it seems a clear attempt to get rid of that conversation because, the as Jay Jaffe pointed out in his ballot introduction article, the Hall of Fame has been known to – kind of stuff the ballot with committees that are going to vote for a certain desired result.
Personal Voting Stories and Choices
00:03:21
Speaker
Everybody complained about Harold Baines, but they had his former owner who retired his number before he finished playing on that committee. They had his former manager on that committee. They had multiple former teammates and executives that were affiliated with him on that committee. I think the Hall of Fame was thrilled when Harold Baines got elected.
00:03:39
Speaker
So this is to say in short term that I expect to see a lot of former Yankees and a lot of former Braves on this committee. e Whether or not they should be voted for is something we're going to get to right now. But I want to say up front – I do believe that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Gary Sheffield did the three best players on the ballot.
00:04:00
Speaker
Regretfully, I will not be voting for them because I believe they're wasted votes. It's something that we've argued about for a while off pod. If I felt that nobody else with an actual chance to get in should be in,
00:04:12
Speaker
that I would have voted for them. But in this case, I think there's a lot of deserving people who actually have a snowball chance in hell at getting in that the committees might actually help out. And I feel that me voting for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens would block someone who actually has a chance.
00:04:29
Speaker
So the Hall of Fame wants this narrative. The Hall of Fame wants to get rid of them forever, in my opinion. and No matter what I do, there's nothing I'm gonna be able do to stop it. So I'm going to let that, I'm going to let it be.
00:04:42
Speaker
and i will not be voting for them on this ballot. We can have that argument as we go. um I'll do my ballot because I've been doing a lot of talking. Who wants to go first?
Ballot Debates and Integrity
00:04:52
Speaker
Oh, God.
00:04:55
Speaker
Go ahead, Zachy. it's It's just so interesting. this I texted the boys off pod. Going into this, I had the mindset of, okay,
00:05:10
Speaker
I'm not going to vote for Bonds Clements, mainly Bonds and Clements, just because, you know, they're, again, they are the best players on this ballot. But again, Mike said they're a dead vote, basically, and you want to go support somebody that deserves to get in.
00:05:25
Speaker
And then when I physically went to go do it, you guys are going to hate me. I know we've had this conversation, but I could not get myself to do it. I couldn't, I couldn't take it seriously. And all due respect to these hall of fame candidates, I couldn't sit there and look at Don Mattingly's resume or even Delgado and just know that that bonds is is right there. And he's much more deserving with or without the roids. Again, whole other conversations can be had all this being said.
00:05:55
Speaker
I feel like I'm representative of just those guys that are going to go down with the ship with the steroid users. I i did vote Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield. um And I did, i and my third one, I did go with Sheffield because I did vote for him. He was on the actual ballot as well.
00:06:11
Speaker
So in earnest and just, and like a testament to my integrity, I feel like I had to still vote these guys while I still have the chance, while they are on the ballot, because they are going to go away.
00:06:23
Speaker
If that makes sense. It does. I actually, I'm glad you did it. To tell you the truth. I know we talked about it. You kind of previewed it the other night when we were talking. I didn't want to tell you that I wanted you to do it, but I'm actually kind of happy you did. Here's the reason why.
00:06:38
Speaker
Josh is not going vote for any of those three. I'm guessing, right, Josh? Correct. I'm not s spoiling anything. So Josh is not going vote for them. You're not going vote for them. And the Hall of Fame now gets nobody.
00:06:51
Speaker
So their little rule changes... are going to be what they are. Everybody sits in purgatory and nobody gets a celebration. So I'm glad I'm not the one who's causing it, but I'm glad that someone did it.
00:07:04
Speaker
um The cool thing with that is based on our percentages, you know, we're talking, you need to get at least five votes out of 16. So you're talking over 25% to get in with your votes. You guarantee another round of conversation with Bonds, Clemens and Sheffield.
00:07:22
Speaker
And that's what I can ask for, I guess. You don't want to forget about them. And I'm not doing that as a troll. like Like, you know, there is a troll mentality to it. But when i like I said, when I physically had to go sit down and do it, I actually could not get myself to not vote them.
00:07:36
Speaker
I'm going to explain you the other reason why – and I didn't mention this off-pod because I wanted to bring it up on why I went the way I did. So in 10th grade, I actually met Dale Murphy.
00:07:49
Speaker
And we had like a pretty solid, it was a short line and a signing. And we had like a five minute conversation. And one of the things that came up was the hall of fame. And I said, listen, like, I want you know, like, you know not that it's any consolation, but like this 15 year old from long Island wants you in, I'm rooting for you. And I think a lot of other people are too, whether they're Braves fans or not, they think you belong in, they think you've been shafted.
00:08:11
Speaker
And you could tell he actually like, it wasn't like just like a quick thank you. And like ah a brush off, he genuinely appreciated hearing it. And for someone who I think belongs in, who I think has a real chance to get in, i don't know if I, spoiler alert, would have the conscience to vote against them when to to give it to guys that have no chance.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah, I understand that too. I do. It's just knowing, like, you know, objectively, you're supposed to try to look at the best baseball players on the ballot and those guys are. So like, objectively, it's hard for me to not.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yep, and the cool thing is that like in the actual ballot room for the Veterans Committee, not like the BBWA, the 16 people that are voting actually do sit in a room and have these discussions together.
00:08:58
Speaker
And then they vote on their own opinions. So we would have been almost discussing these guys guys beforehand, before we came to our own conclusions. But either way, we kind of did that when
Tallying Votes and Inductees Discussion
00:09:08
Speaker
we were texting the other night.
00:09:09
Speaker
Yeah. So we kind of already did what the actual Veterans Committee is going to be doing. And people are going to reach – different opinions the way that you did. um Basically, it means that no one's going to be getting into the Championship of Us Hall of Fame that way, but sometimes it happens where people don't get into the real Hall of Fame that And again, I'm not doing that to troll. That's just... No, I know. yeah I have no problem with you doing that. And honestly, I i wish that I could kind of put that aside because I know like I shouldn't be accounting for my interaction with the one but one of the two guys that I met.
00:09:45
Speaker
on this ballot to impact me. And it doesn't necessarily mean I'm, I would be voting for Dale Murphy, but what it means is like, I saw that it means something to these guys. And the fact that, you know, out of the eight guys, five have a chance to get a plaque. I want to go with three of the five guys who actually have a chance.
00:10:02
Speaker
That's all. I respect that too. Yeah. You can look at it both ways, I guess. Yeah. Josh, you want to go? You want me to go? It's up to you. I mean, I can go. i think you already know who I'm voting for.
00:10:14
Speaker
Did I guess correctly? You did guess correctly. Let's go. I-3 were Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, and Mr. Baseball, Don Mattingly. Interesting.
00:10:25
Speaker
Any reasoning for Dale Murphy? So, my reasoning here is I think Delgado is the strongest guy. Wow, I don't even feel Dougal Strongest. I love him, man. I think he's the strongest case on the on on the ballot that, you know, didn't do steroids. Wow.
00:10:42
Speaker
so well well I mean, let me let me start by saying Bonds, Clemens, and Sheffield are off for steroids. Yes, I understand that. Valenzuela being on the ballot at all is just a joke. Yes. All due respect to for Fernando Valenzuela, rest in peace. All due respect for him, but he should never be in this conversation.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yes, that's that's valid. um And then out of the four many guys, I think Delgado is the best case. that's I did not expect that. i I have Jeff Kent as a second baseman to continue the Utley narrative.
00:11:15
Speaker
thats i have I have to. I have no choice. I voted for Fred McGriff. I felt he deserved it, but that boosted my Delgado narrative 100%. um and then and then honestly it was it was pretty tough between uh murphy and mattingly i think you could really pick either of them when you're really just when it's just between the two of them but i you know i gotta go with a yankee uh mattingly was one of the best headers ever that i've ever seen interesting wow okay so i'll tell you off the bat do you have anything else to add before i move into me
00:11:53
Speaker
I don't want to cut you off. No, no, you can go. We can yell at each other. We actually have two or three matches, though. So I'll go in the order of like who I was most vehement about, which is ironic because you didn't vote for him, but my number one was dalemer was Dale Murphy.
00:12:07
Speaker
um Taking the whole interaction that I just mentioned aside, had nothing to do with that, but he was my number one pick here for a couple of reasons. um I get the case against him. Career numbers are low, but he was a two-time MVP who was two home runs away from 400.
00:12:22
Speaker
when a time when 400 home runs was actually a lot and it mattered. He was a seven-time All-Star, five-time Gold Glover, four-time Silver Slugger who mainly played in center field. So it meant something to get Gold Gloves there.
00:12:34
Speaker
And what is Dak's up to? It's a borderline case. I get it. But I think if he hit those two extra home runs to get to 400 and then the steroid era doesn't happen, we may not be having this conversation. He might already be in.
00:12:47
Speaker
And I know that this also shouldn't matter, but Del Murphy – outside of my one interaction was a total class, that guy
Player Evaluations and Voting Logic
00:12:54
Speaker
who actually made a charity called I won't cheat. I'm not going to both Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Gary Sheffield. This guy made a charity called I won't cheat, educating kids to discourage cheating, particularly with performance enhancing drugs.
00:13:08
Speaker
So if we're going to keep the inner circle legends out because they're cheating, not necessarily what I want to do, but what I feel like ah it's going to have to be, i accept the inevitability. We should also be consistent by giving the borderline guys who were nothing but class a small little bump up, maybe great on a curve with those guys at times.
00:13:27
Speaker
So I think he was someone who got overshadowed by, you know, by the time he was on the ballot, you know Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire were doing their thing and they're like, okay, this, you know, the home run numbers and the hit totals just paled in comparison to those guys.
00:13:43
Speaker
But that's not right considering, Those guys were artificially enhanced and Dale Murphy wasn't. Speaking of guys who were overshadowed by their cheating colleagues, Carlos Delgado.
00:13:54
Speaker
I'm completely biased here. I wholeheartedly admit it. He's my favorite hitter ever. And he was my first favorite player growing up. But this man played first base in the steroid era and hit 473 home runs.
00:14:06
Speaker
Take a look at the all-time home run list. Every single player above Carlos is either in the hall, will be in the hall, or has ties to drugs. Someone has to be the guy with the most home runs and isn't in. I get that. But can we let that be Adam Dunn, please?
00:14:21
Speaker
So, if that part doesn't... Can we let that be Adam Dunn? Can we let it be Adam Dunn? I don't know if we can. I can get behind that. Yeah, don't know if we can. He has 462, but he has like 1,500 hits. Can we let him be the guy with the most home runs that's out Hall of Fame?
00:14:34
Speaker
This guy was not Adam Dunn. Now... If that doesn't convince you, go look at the all-time runs batted in list. He's one of 56 hitters in the 1,500 run batted in club. Everyone above him is either a Hall of Famer, will be one, connected to steroids, or Jeff Kent, who has six more than Delgado and 880 more at-bats. Hey, Jeff Kent. 880 more at-bats. He has six more runs batted in.
00:14:59
Speaker
But how many MVPs did Delgado win compared to Kent? Who did Jeff Kent hit with? Barry Bonds. Oh, yeah. And he has six more runs batted in in 880 at back. Because Barry Bonds knocked them all in. Who's going to knock him?
00:15:14
Speaker
You can also compare him to recent pick Fred McGriff, who I happily voted for. Delgado has 20 less home runs and 38 less runs batted in than Fred McGriff in 425 less games.
00:15:28
Speaker
He was only a two-time All-Star. Fine. He has two top five MVP finishes. Four top 10 MVP finishes. But there's more to it than that. Remember, we're talking about performance-hancing drug comparisons.
00:15:39
Speaker
Delgado finished second in the 03 MVP vote behind Alex Rodriguez. He finished fourth in 2000. Two of the three people above him were tied to steroids. A-Rod again and Jason Giambi, who won the case, who won the um and MVP that year.
00:15:55
Speaker
Using the Altuve judge argument with the MVP award, Delgado should have an MVP with an MVP second place finish and 473 home runs with a career 929 OPS, a 138 OPS plus, 10 straight 30 home run seasons in the heart of the steroid era with no drug allegations against him.
00:16:15
Speaker
I don't expect him to get in, but he deserves it. i'm so I'm so happy you said he was the most deserving case out of the five because I wanted to say that, but I felt my bias was coming out. No, I believe I'm so glad you agree. I really do. That was nice to hear. I did not expect that at all. You're welcome.
00:16:33
Speaker
Thank you. This is just a regular deal we made on the table. Oh, yeah. Stop it. Stop it. I did not agree to the deal, let's be fair. I did say let's vote with our hearts.
00:16:45
Speaker
My heart says I have it. We're on my ballot. We're getting a priority vote.
00:16:51
Speaker
I understand that. Anyway, but i you didn't have to say that he was the most deserving. I will give you that. That was not part of our arrangement. So from here, i was stuck between two people, Don Mattingly and Jeff Kent.
00:17:03
Speaker
I'm sorry, Yankee fans. I had to go Jeff Kent. um This grosses me out because I feel very weird having a Hall of Fame with Jeff Kent and without Barry Bonds. So I'm holding my nose as I do it. I'm pretty shocked you voted for Jeff Kenton, not Don Mattingly.
00:17:18
Speaker
Kent's stats significantly better. i have the I have it up right here. 13 more war,
Impact of MLB.com Voters
00:17:23
Speaker
which I'm not a big fan of, but he had 150 more home runs at a position that's not power heavy.
00:17:28
Speaker
He had almost 500 more runs batted in in a position in a um position that's not power heavy. He had a higher slugging in OPS. Mattingly had more gold gloves, but at first base, I mean – can I really vault them over someone with such a better offensive resume?
00:17:47
Speaker
The only thing that gave me pause was the fact that Kent hit with Barry Bonds. So a lot more pitches, but he did have some good seasons outside of San Francisco. You know, he, he never had a top 10 MVP finish outside of San Francisco, which gave me a lot of pause in the moment.
00:18:02
Speaker
But if we're going by the fact that he never took steroids, yes, he benefited from being around a steroid user, but, i Looking at the resume, i couldn't go Mattingly over Kent.
00:18:20
Speaker
I don't hate that was my I know, I hate it too. I honestly thought about going Bonds as my third, but then I'm like, if I have Bonds and don't have Clemens, that looks bad too. There's no real positive way when you can only vote for three.
00:18:33
Speaker
It kind of just shows how messed up the the ballot is with this Veterans Committee thing. doesn't feel very it really is. it I'm not going to deny it. It absolutely is.
00:18:44
Speaker
So if we're counting up the votes here, so Josh, you went Kent, Murphy, Mattingly. So Delgado. No, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. Kent, Delgado, Mattingly. I apologize. I almost shafted my guy a vote. wow Yeah, I was going to say, what are you doing? Right. So Delgado finishes with 66%.
00:19:03
Speaker
Jeff Kent finishes with 66%. And then Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Gary Sheffield, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds all finished with 33%. And then Fernando Valenzuela would not be talked about for another six years.
00:19:17
Speaker
That's about right. Yeah. I think that's... No inductees. No inductees. We kind of expected it. Good Lord, Zach. I do want to shout out Fernando Valenzuela here. i agree he's not a worthy Hall of Famer, but I think he would be a worthy fit for the Buck O'Neill Lifetime Achievement Award.
00:19:33
Speaker
If he gets elected in December, I'll smile. um He's a nice – he was a nice guy with a good – between you know the hitting, the broadcasting – not the hitting, the pitching, the broadcasting, and everything else.
00:19:47
Speaker
I mean I wouldn't hate him getting in. He just wouldn't get my vote. Now, can I ask you this though? For all three of you – all three of us I should say. Wow, killing it tonight.
00:20:00
Speaker
Curt Schilling, let's say he's on this ballot. Does he get both of your votes? Because he certainly gets mine. Absolutely. i think he does. I think he – Like over Sheffield?
00:20:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because he deserves to be in because they – it's all the personal stuff that they're leaving him out, right? Yeah. Oh, 100%. He had 70%. Then he said some stuff and they dropped him and then happened again.
00:20:25
Speaker
but'veve We've gone over. We've gone over my feelings on this topic. So would he be in your top three on this ballot, Josh? Yes. So do we want to just call him our inductee? He should be in. That sounds like cheating.
00:20:39
Speaker
it cheating We didn't make the ballot. I mean, yeah, it's true. We voted on Curt Schilling formally. Wow. Did we actually not get the chance to do that? No, it was 2022. He was off with Bonds and Clemens, I think. We started this in 2024 and Curt Schilling was not on that ballot. we the can We never voted on him. I'm like an honorary inductee or something like that.
00:21:04
Speaker
I say we call him our inductee.
00:21:08
Speaker
That's just me. We could just, like, run – honestly, if we have time at the end, we could just run through some names and try to make our own, like, top three, and that could be our our Veterans Committee Hall of Fame this year.
00:21:20
Speaker
Oh, man. All right. wellll We'll come back to that. Curt Schilling might be a possible inductee in the Championship of Us Hall of Fame. Stay tuned. Ready move on to the BBWA? Sure.
00:21:31
Speaker
Yes. Do we want to go alphabetical like we usually do? I think we should. Then we got to start with our age old first name and that is Bobby Abreu. Oh Um, really underrated career.
00:21:46
Speaker
um I haven't brought it up a lot, but I do still calculate the, the max score, the legend score. And he's like the third lowest on this entire ballot.
00:21:57
Speaker
Cause it covers a lot of awards and milestones. And he has neither. um But, Very good career, almost 2,500 hits, just under 300 home runs.
00:22:09
Speaker
Just not enough is pretty much the recurring topic here to me. um But, hey, he did walk a lot, so if we give him that credit. Anyone go yes here?
00:22:19
Speaker
you said the magic words. You said very good. Yeah. i Same thing as we said the last year. Definitely not. definitely not no Oh, spoiler alert, there's going to lot of those in this ballot.
00:22:34
Speaker
But he should be the first inductee into the Hall of Very Good. Yeah, he's not he's too overqualified for the Bryce Whitlow's Hall of Pretty Good, though. i almost And I realize he's above the Baines war line, so he doesn't make it.
00:22:47
Speaker
Shout out to that guy, though. That's a fun Instagram page. It a fun one I enjoy voting for that. that's I'm very mad that we didn't think of it first. I know. We could have been huge. Yeah, and here we are. Dang it, Zach. Sorry, it was my brainchild. Very angry we didn't think of that one first. That could have been a huge, huge hit.
00:23:06
Speaker
But he thought of it. Got to give him credit.
Player Candidacy Evaluations
00:23:10
Speaker
All right. Next up, Carlos Beltran. We had two yeses last year. He's at 70, I believe 70.3%, I want to say. year four.
00:23:23
Speaker
um A lot of people have been flipping from no CSs. We'll go right to it. Josh, did he flip your vote? No. yeah However, i do think that he will get in this year because of how weak of a ballot it is. I agree. I don't see why he won't.
00:23:39
Speaker
He might flip with 90%. He could. Wow. Because there's nobody else that really viable chance. could. He already cheated, but he could. Okay. I mean, what would be really cool for me, honestly, is having Beltran and Delgado get in the same year. I mean, it's sad I like Beltran, but, you know.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. I liked the past tense. We saw him hit a home run, Zach. I know we did. You and me together. Yeah. The one year he played for the Yankees, and I played for the Yankees for like four years.
00:24:07
Speaker
Yeah, something like that. Watching Beltran play the outfield when he was on the Mets was a treat. Because he just made the hard, like these hard catches in the outfield just look routine. he He was always there just waiting for the ball to land in his glove. The kind of plays that guys nowadays are trying to do backflips and crap to catch.
00:24:27
Speaker
Ultimate 5-2 player. He did everything. He had a good arm. He had multiple 30 home run seasons, a 40 home run season. And he was a guy who shined when it mattered most. Yeah, he had he actually had 6 tools. The 6 tool was the brainchild that invented banging on trash cans. Yeah, he was he had definitely some intelligence as well. Gotta give him that.
00:24:49
Speaker
Just not quite – he didn't get out and enough quick enough to get to not get caught. I mean he took the fall. Yeah, he did. and that was – I do think that was a little unfair to him.
00:25:00
Speaker
He was the one guy who wasn't a player anymore and Manfred granted the player's immunity. So magically the one retired guy who he couldn't – that didn't need immunity was the one that they threw under the bus. That's also part of my motivation of like thinking Beltran should be in because he definitely was the fall guy in this for sure.
00:25:18
Speaker
I wonder what he lost. He lost a managerial job with the Mets. I know. Yeah. that would have been like Yeah. Still not voting for him. I know. I'm just saying that I think that he was not that he was screwed because he put himself in that position, but I think it was a little cruel and unusual punishment for him.
00:25:36
Speaker
i mean, I don't think, I don't think that, yeah, I don't think he should have lost a job over it. I don't think he should be in the hall of fame though. and Everyone else took a newspaper to the nose. I mean, it was, it's ridiculous. Boy, I think that's even more punishment than they actually got.
00:25:48
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of guys who didn't get punished enough, Ryan Braun. but um I'm surprised this guy isn't on your, Zach.
00:25:59
Speaker
You didn't vote for Ryan Braun? No, I did not. Really? I wasn't sure where you were going to land on him, Zach. Are you serious? he He did have a – listen, his if we're taught if we're taking the steroids out of it, this is a guy with three top three MVP finishes, had some really good years, but he did get suspended for it. And then once he got suspended for it, he kind of fell off a cliff real quick.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah, i wonder why. He doesn't even to have 2,000 hits. I guess he's close. but He is very close. 1963. His stats are probably close to Andre Jones if we're just looking at his hitting, but he also did steroids. Hey, if he did steroids better and he made it into the league before he was 23, he would have, you know, 2,000 hits easily and and probably 55, 56 war before they caught him.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah. Honestly, I think out of all the cheaters, Ryan Braun's the worst of them because he actually got somebody fired over it. Like he was Lance Armstrong of baseball. True. Yeah. Like he's just the, you know,
00:26:58
Speaker
I won't go there. I don't want to go there. but i mean, you win an MVP, you come in second in MVP voting, and then get suspended. Yeah, that's pretty rough.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah, remember when the Brewers were going to be good? Him and Ricky Weeks, right? Remember Ricky Weeks? Ricky Weeks. That's a poll, dude. J.J. Hardy. He was a Brewer, right? Prince Fielder.
00:27:19
Speaker
That team, yeah. Niger Morgan. i you I can't believe you don't remember Niger Morgan, Josh. No, I don't remember that. oh my god, I love that guy. Tony Plush.
00:27:32
Speaker
He just started screaming into microphones for no reason. he was a crazy dude. I like him. You would have hated his guts, dude. Yeah, you're probably right. Picture like jazz, but louder and more obnoxious. I don't think that's a possible i don't think it's possible thing. it Right, Zach? he He was unbearable, and I loved him.
00:27:50
Speaker
Go look him up. Yeah, you got to look him up later. i'll I'll find the montage someone made of with the I'm a boss in the background and him just making errors and throwing his glove on the middle of the field mid-play.
00:28:04
Speaker
That's a whole pretty good player right there, Nigel Morgan. All right. Speaking of someone who should be in the Hall of very good, Mark Burley. ah So, you know good player, fun player.
00:28:17
Speaker
I remember him fondly. How the hell is he still here? i I don't know. Good question. That's also the Delgado factor. That guy was a one and done. You heard all the things I said about Delgado. You heard Josh make his case over other people that were 50 years on the ballot.
00:28:35
Speaker
Delgado was a one and done. Mark Burley's been on the ballot six years. What are we doing? People are dumb. Is the Bobby Abreu of pitchers? I don't mean that as an insult. They were both very good.
00:28:50
Speaker
They're not Hall of Famers. Stop. Yeah. They were fun players that you you look at the ballot and you're like, hey, Mark Burley. No. I remember that guy. Pass. Yeah. Next. Exactly.
00:29:04
Speaker
yeah So next, unless anyone has anything to add on Mark Burley. Nope. Nope. Is Sin Shoo Choo. Goat. Anyone vote for him. Anyone do it.
00:29:16
Speaker
I love this man, but no, I love him so much. I loved having him on the bench at MLB The Show. Yes, I was going to say. He can't hit left-handed pitching, but man, if you need a guy to come off the bench and hit right-handed pitching, he was your guy. Yeah.
00:29:35
Speaker
That he was. He's got to be in like the Korean Baseball Hall of Fame or something, right? I would assume. I'm sure. He kind of has to be. ah He's awesome. I love him.
00:29:47
Speaker
Let's see. Korean Baseball Hall of Fame. It's an article about him possibly becoming the first Korean to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Oh, well. I think he's the first Korean on the ballot, though.
00:29:59
Speaker
That's kind of cool. That is really cool. He's the first Korean nominated for the MLB Hall of Fame, according to a Korean news source. That's actually cool. That's awesome. um He does also have the distinction of having the lowest legend score of anybody on the ballot.
00:30:14
Speaker
This is a fun one. Edwin Encarnacion. Oh. So this is someone who I was afraid people thought Delgado was. yeah know, he was an underrated one-dimensional home run hitter who got to the 400 mark.
00:30:29
Speaker
But Edwin has no case beyond that. I like him, though. He was fun to watch. I hated watching his parrot celebration when he was going up against the Yankees with Toronto. He was really the first ah Blue Jay that I really hated.
00:30:43
Speaker
So shout out to him. You didn't hate Vernon Wells first? I hated Vernon Wells. had no issue of Vernon Wells. I actually liked Vernon Wells. Well, he was a Yankee killer, Vernon Wells. And then he was a Yankee. So was Edward. Yeah. So was Encarnacion. Yeah.
00:30:58
Speaker
When did he play for us? Like 2019, 2020-ish? 2019, because I remember I was at the playoff game um against the Astros, and he played. Holy cow. Yeah. That's crazy, man.
00:31:11
Speaker
No, I mean – yeah Like you said, funny funny celebration. i ended up hating him, too, for a while, but he does not serve to be the Fame. No. Josh? Yeah, no, I mean, not even close. This this guy was a glorified DH. Yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker
yeah And he wasn't even... I mean, he was he was a decent player, but not Hall of Fame worthy, not even close. What's the J.D. Martinez comparison on this guy? J.D. Martinez had a lot more award shares and more All-Star appearances.
00:31:40
Speaker
I think JD is still a no but i think he might be someone that ends up more like a Matt Holiday where he invokes a little more thought. I just picked it up. I actually thought JD was closer to 400 home runs than he actually is. He's not.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, he's a seven-time Wall Star. Not that that really is accounted for in the Hall of Fame voting, but he he'll be on the ballot and should absolutely be there. um Edwin has better career numbers pretty much across the board, but JD has better rate stats except for on base.
00:32:13
Speaker
And the on base is like by two hundredths of a point. Gotcha. umm But JD has better awards. Edwin's another guy like Delgado. Like I said, I think he was underrated because, you know, the peak of his career, but there was still like that steroid fatigue on like one-dimensional power hitters.
00:32:31
Speaker
Where think if he played and now, people would remember him a little bit more fondly. But that doesn't mean he's a Hall of Famer. He's not.
00:32:41
Speaker
ah How is this guy even on here? Gio Gonzalez. I'm trying to figure that one out myself when I look at it. I was shocked he made them. They've been very inclusive this year. But Chris Davis, if anything, should have been on this ballot over him.
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah. and I mean, you remember Chris Davis more than you remember Gio Gonzalez, with all due respect. i Yeah, you know ah you we all know why we remember Chris Davis. oh yeah but Because he went so long without giving getting a hit. Bars in Baltimore were giving out free shots to for the first time he got a hit.
00:33:10
Speaker
I know, and that wouldn't be exactly the best Hall of Fame case for him, but I think he was more of a memorable player with the 50-home run season. And that was their most expensive contract at the time, right? The 50-home run season when he stole his triple crown from Miguel Cabrera?
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah. Wow, yeah, good. po Remember that? Yeah. He stole triple crown from Miguel Cabrera. yeah He could have had two triple crowns. Yep. Oh, I can't wait to talk about him. I'm sure we'll have a really tough debate on the goal. Oh, yeah, very tough. In
Humorous Deep Dive into Candidacies
00:33:37
Speaker
2030, I want to say, maybe 2031.
00:33:40
Speaker
But, um yeah, Gio Gonzalez is in the hall of one really good season. 2012, he went twenty one and eight with a 2.89 ERA in his first year with the Nationals.
00:33:50
Speaker
Had a five-war, you know, 200 strikeouts, finished third in the Cy Young voting. Very good season. Yeah. but nothing that I don't think he had one whole of fame level season.
00:34:03
Speaker
He had one in 2017 where he had six and a half war, but slightly worse numbers than what he had in that season in Washington. as sorry, in 2012 in Washington, but no, I, how do you make this?
00:34:20
Speaker
Yeah, i don't know. Pity voting. Moving on. Another first year candidate actually he was a sneaky good fielder, Alex Gordon. So three-time All-Star, eight-time Gold Glove, power stats not so great, 748 OPS, 102 OPS plus, 1643 hits.
00:34:43
Speaker
Good career. um Had three seasons with six more or higher. little sneaky there. It was a big part of that title team. What do we think? He's a guy that'll probably be in the Royals Hall of Fame, maybe? Yeah, but i would agree with that. Yeah, like Adam Jones type, but definitely not as good as Adam Jones also, but no.
00:35:05
Speaker
Yeah. Josh? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, he'll he'll he'll definitely be in the Royals Hall Fame, especially because they won the championship with him on the team.
00:35:16
Speaker
ah But yeah, no, I mean...
00:35:20
Speaker
No. Good fielder, though. I do remember him for his fielding. Yeah, he he was a good player. And he had played under the Baines line for Hall of Pretty Good, so that'll be a first ballot. Good for him.
00:35:32
Speaker
um Now we get to some juicy ones. We already kind of talked a little bit about it. I have a feeling of where you're both going with this. I kind of played my cards tight. Uh-oh. Cole Hamels.
00:35:44
Speaker
Interesting. So, Cole Hamels... I mean, very, very good career. i think when, Josh, you put up some stats that were really interesting.
00:35:56
Speaker
I think that maybe he is, through history, underrated compared to, you know, Vapis. I didn't expect to see some of those numbers that you put up there.
00:36:08
Speaker
um if you want to throw them out there when you're voting, go ahead. rest this cause You killed this. Yeah, you got to go first. I got to find where I sent that.
00:36:19
Speaker
I have it. I need the the leaderboards after, so I'll i'll pull it up. Yeah. so these are from you, so I'm crediting you with this. I'm not plagiarizing you. Cole, thanks. Every left-handed pitcher ever with at least 2,500 innings pitched, 2,500 strikeouts, and 120 ERA plus.
00:36:37
Speaker
Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Cole Hamels. That's the first one. Insane. Lowest whips since integration with a minimum of 2,500 innings. 16 Hall of Famers. Then it's Clemens, Schilling, Saberhagen, Kershaw, Scherzer, Verlander, Greinke, and Cole Hamels.
00:36:55
Speaker
Now, the one thing with that stat was um after Hamels, it goes to John Candelaria. But then it goes to Bob Gibson, Mike Mussina, Warren Spahn.
00:37:08
Speaker
So these are some names. This is some good company for him. um Josh, I'll let you vote first because you were the one who found those. I vote yes. I had a feeling. Wow.
00:37:20
Speaker
I did have feeling. What are you wowing me with that attitude for? oh No, no. It's a tough one. it's ah Those stats were really eye-opening. And the the Felix comparison was astounding to me, by the way.
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah, I told up that before. um But do you have any other reasons besides the number? Yeah, so my my other reason, I think he was very good for ah for a long time.
00:37:44
Speaker
But I think the thing for me that pushes him over the edge was the 2008 playoffs where he won the NLCS MVP and the World Series MVP. I mean, he carried that Phillies team to a World Series.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah, he did have a great World Series. He definitely checks that box. Listen, I don't think it's a crazy pick at all. um I'll get to my opinion.
00:38:08
Speaker
I'll let Zach go, though. Off the top of my head, Matt, can you pull a stat head with him and Burley? Because I think they have very similar war like strikeouts. Not strikeouts, but yeah ERA and stuff like that.
00:38:22
Speaker
You got it. Pull it up right now. Don't they both have like 59 or 60 war? They actually have the exact same war. And Cole Hamels played 95 games. Wow. ah He has a.4 lower ERA, but remember he played 100 less games. That probably would have gone up. Yeah. His ERA plus is six points higher, and he had 700 more strikeouts in 95 less games. Dude.
00:38:47
Speaker
It's a case. And people are voting for Burley. like what People are voting for Burley because he's a vibe guy. And I don't hate it if you're, you know, If you're looking at it in the form of, you that boy nice instead of an analytics viewpoint, I don't hate that. It's just I don't think he's good enough.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah, this is this is a really tough case. More borderline than you think. They vote for Burley because he played on some awful teams. He was an inning eater who stayed healthy for a long time and won gold gloves, which as a pitcher doesn't mean anything. Yeah, agreed.
00:39:23
Speaker
But the only yeah i mean the only thing he ever did was was throw innings. which I'm not saying is a bad thing. Staying healthy pretty much his whole career, which is for a 10-year pitching career or 15-year pitching career is pretty impressive.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. He never got hurt. For Hamels, he might have to be the first guy out for me. I did vote no, but I really did think about it. And like I said, that Felix comparison really, really had me stumped for a minute there.
00:39:54
Speaker
So...
00:39:57
Speaker
I, part of me wants to change my mind right now. Oh no. It's tricky. i yeah I did go. No, here's my reason for no. Let me say this out loud as I'm thinking out loud. Okay.
00:40:11
Speaker
Here's why I went. No. You know how big I am with award finishes. He finished top five in the Cy Young voting one time, and it was a fifth-place finish. He was never nominated for a Cy Young.
00:40:24
Speaker
And I don't think I voted for anybody who didn't finish top three in Cy Young since they started expanding voting. you know Back when they only voted for one guy and you picked the best guy and that was it, yeah, you're not going to have a lot of top five finishes. Fine.
00:40:39
Speaker
But once they expanded the ballot, your best year, you were behind. Let's see who he was behind that year. ah This is 2011. Clayton Kershaw won it. Okay, fine. No issue there.
00:40:49
Speaker
Roy Halladay came in second. No issue there. Cliff Lee had a couple good years. Fine. Ian Kennedy. Oh, God. Ian Kennedy was better than col was considered better than Cole Hamels in Cole Hamels' best Cy Young finish season. The next time in 2007, he finished sixth.
00:41:07
Speaker
He finished behind Jake Peavy. Fine. He had a couple good years. Brandon Webb was dominant for a couple of years. I have no issue there. Brad Penny, Aaron Harang, and Carlos Zambrano.
00:41:19
Speaker
And then Cole Hamels. In his best years.
00:41:25
Speaker
yeah But the numbers on their own are great. I think right now my verdict is if he had a Cy Young, I'd probably vote for him. Mr. Big Hole guy not voting for Cole Hamels. I am truly shocked.
00:41:42
Speaker
I'm not a Big Hole guy. It's just we weren't being shocked we vote the same thing. It's just we're a Venn diagram. Relievers on one side, steroids on the other. you You two are on one side and I'm in the middle. That's really all it is. never really have much other than that.
00:41:56
Speaker
Let me think on this. I'll come back to this one at the end. Yeah, we have years. Also, we have ballots to go. He's going to be there for a minute. Yeah, I think he'll get he'll definitely get the 5%. I mean, he definitely made me think a lot more than I expected him to. Me too.
00:42:09
Speaker
I spent the grand total of about 10 minutes on the new guys, and I spent probably nine of those minutes on him. Yeah. So... To me, i didn't even know I wasn't even really a thought. It was, yes, he's a Hall of Famer. You kind of snuck in a couple months ago where you said something in the chat. and i'm like i You know, we talked about it we talked about it vaguely last year. yeah we didn't talk about it. Did we talk about it?
00:42:32
Speaker
Because he came up in in my research as I was researching other players last year, and it made me think. So when i got and I sat down and I thought about it this year, i had already done the thinking, the hard thinking, and my mind was made up.
00:42:45
Speaker
Got you. Now, Zach, I'm going ask you. Yeah. If Cole Hamels, let's say he had those the exact same career except the year he finished fifth behind Ian Kennedy, he won the Cy Young. Would you vote for him? Ooh.
00:42:58
Speaker
So the playoff checks. This is a good question. that's Very good question. This is a really good question. You know, I think I would. I think I would. actually Okay, great. New segue. Next person, Felix Hernandez.
00:43:11
Speaker
ah Can I – I'm going to start here. i did not vote for Felix Hernandez last year. Yes. However, in my research on Cole Hamels, I have changed my mind, and he has flipped me. I am voting for Felix Hernandez. Whoa. I love it. Wow.
00:43:27
Speaker
I love it. I love it. I realized that I could not vote for Hamels. and And not vote for Hernandez at the same time. I love it. had to vote for both them. I absolutely love this. And you kind of figured the second I said that.
00:43:42
Speaker
Yes. know like I knew the second you said that that was where you were going because that was what pushed me over the edge. That their stats are so similar and Hamill's war is higher because he played a little bit longer. But the Cy Young for Hernandez pushes it over the edge for me to put him in.
00:43:59
Speaker
Yeah. It's basically... It's basically Hamels has the playoffs. Hernandez has the Cy Young. Yes. And the other thing with Hernandez is if he didn't hit the age of 30 and just collapse, his numbers would be significantly better.
00:44:16
Speaker
I mean, collapsed when he hit the age of 30. And it was bad. But I think, you know, I said I really hope last year that he makes the past 5%. He pulled 20.6%.
00:44:27
Speaker
he pulled twenty point six So I feel almost like a wuss because I was borderline on it last year and I i couldn't get there. But I think he could be a real contender for future election, especially with this week ballot next year. Spoiler, only Buster Posey is really going to really – and Jon Lester are really going to make people think. Yeah.
00:44:49
Speaker
Felix gets my vote. You know, looking at the award finishes, here's another thing with him. He won that Cy Young, as we know. He finished second twice, like we said last year. But one of those second-place finishes, he lost to Corey Kluber by 10 points.
00:45:01
Speaker
Razor-thin finish, one of the closest finishes I've ever seen. The other second-place year, he was sandwiched between first and third place. it was Zach Greinke and Justin Verlander. So if that year with Kluber flips one or two votes the way Cal Rally and Aaron Judge was this year, he's a two-time Cy Young winner fight with 2,500 strikeouts.
00:45:20
Speaker
And a third year where, you know, okay, he was the second best pitcher behind Zach Greinke and better than Justin Verlander. His peak was insane. Yeah, it really was. seventy i one dr one too Yeah, it's just crazy how like the stats are so razor thin. Like anyone listening, if you want to throw a stat head simulation on those two guys, Hamels and Hernandez, they're razor thin. Like each one has an edge, but it's like very, very close across the board. Their ERA is almost identical. The similarity score is on baseball reference. Hernandez is closest guy as Hamels and I believe it's vice versa.
00:45:53
Speaker
Oh, wow. They're that close um compared to every other pitcher in the sport ever. So the thing that struck me with Hernandez and not Hamels also, not including the Cy Young, was if I told you guys in 2013, 2014, you know, let's go to the game tonight. Cole Hamels is in town.
00:46:15
Speaker
You guys are looking at the prices. You're thinking about you know going for the vibes. You're not going for Cole Hamels. If I told you, let's go to the game tonight. Felix Hernandez is pitching. Your ass is in my car.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah. That's a difference. That's a difference. And so I'm going yes. Oh, man. On Felix Hernandez. Guys are backing me into a corner here. Come Sacky, sacky, sacky. It sets an interesting precedent, though. like You guys laid it out. If you you vote yes on one, you've got to vote yes on the other, right?
00:46:51
Speaker
like Realistically. I went no on Hamels for now because of the Cy Young and the eye tests and the g the the fact that for Hernandez was regularly in conversations as the best pitcher in the sport.
00:47:06
Speaker
Hamels never really was. Where does the bar start for like... the first person out of the hall of fame? Like, how does that conversation? so we have to, that's something that every, I think individual person needs to figure out.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yeah. So like, that's why I did the hall of fame list and COVID time. Cause I wanted to see like where my bar ended. The problem is is that every once in a while I get bored and then I add more people to it and then it paints it more. So, um, I eventually added other guys and it kind of got caught in the way.
00:47:38
Speaker
So I caution you on once you find your bar, you don't lower it. If that makes sense. So whatever your bar is, your bar is your bar.
00:47:51
Speaker
Yes. Right. No relievers. believe No military vterinary veterans. No Bill White. Oh my God. So Zach. Oh God.
00:48:04
Speaker
This is, this is terrible. Uh,
00:48:09
Speaker
And listen, you got another 10 years. I do. I do. And you're going to – I'm going to stick with no today. Okay. Because you said the bar is the bar.
00:48:19
Speaker
And I was looking at Cole Hamels as the the best guy out of the Hall of Fame. So if we're comparing those two this closely, then they have to be out right now. but guys Let's go back to the question today asked you at the end of Hamels. If Cole Hamels won a Cy Young – Yeah. You said yes. I bet. I know. But then if you look at Felix, he has the two ERA titles.
00:48:41
Speaker
Right. hamil does Felix is better than Hamels. And if Hamels is your first guy out. Right. I'm I'm. Listen, no, no, I like it. It's.
00:48:54
Speaker
It's tough. I'm really sitting here on the spot right now. I kind of came into this planning on most of our time tonight being spent on these two guys. Come on, Zach. Gun to your head. who who Are you putting them in or not? Yes or no? Three, two, one. Gun to my head, no.
00:49:08
Speaker
Okay. There you go. There's your answer for now. Sad. All right. So moving forward, Torrey Hunter. Now, we've talked about him a lot, and it's weird for me to say this. I feel a little hypocritical.
00:49:22
Speaker
Like, I've never voted for him, but I'm almost disappointed he hasn't gotten better support. even though I'm not one of his supporters for it. I think Torrey Hunter was one of another one of my favorites to watch, but he only pulls like just around 5%. He hangs on by a thread every year, and then Bobby Abreu gets like 17%. Mark Burley gets... yeah it's It doesn't make sense to me yeah that he doesn't get more support than he does.
00:49:51
Speaker
Well, I don't know. Do people just not remember him? like I know he was like a better-than-average player for a minute, but... and So we'll go into the stats. I mean, he finished with 5.1% of the vote. I mean, he needed, i don't know how much he needed to stay on, but I think he came, I think he got it by one vote to stay on.
00:50:09
Speaker
And looking at his numbers here, he never had a top 10 MVP. He had one top 10 MVP finish. He finished sixth. He won nine gold gloves in center and he had 353 home 2,500 hits.
00:50:26
Speaker
But he had a war of 50.6 and an OPS plus of 110, and they say no. But it's not that far off from Andrew Jones.
00:50:39
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not there. I voted no. Let me make that clear. I'll turn it over to you guys. But I just want to say like I'm an extreme hypocrite because i I'm sad that he's not getting more than 5%. But maybe I guess the other 95% thinks he's on the cost and no.
00:50:55
Speaker
But how do you vote for Bobby Abreu and not Torrey Hunter? It makes no sense. That's a good that's a good point. I don't get it. How do you vote for Bobby Abreu? Just end sentence. I mean, yeah.
00:51:06
Speaker
But I don't tell you why because Abreu's got 10 more war. That's probably why. Yeah, that's probably so but That's not all war. It's not the whole of war.
00:51:20
Speaker
just Fame has to matter at some point. He was a pretty famous dude.
00:51:25
Speaker
Right. I'm guessing you're both... I'm guessing you're both... But that doesn't make him a Hall of Famer. I'm guessing you're both nose on this. Correct. Anything you want to add on it? Nope. Nope.
00:51:37
Speaker
Okay, next. Andrew Jones. Someone else is talking. I've talked too much. He's already in our Hall of Fame. so Yes, he's in our Hall Fame, and he'll continue to be in our Hall of Fame. Do not slip your vote, you moron.
00:51:50
Speaker
If I vote for him. Are you saying you're not going vote for him now? think I'm voting for him. You're feeling so bad with Twitter, you're not going vote for Andrew Jones? No. You had 100 more home runs? Yeah.
00:52:02
Speaker
I'm voting for Roger Jones. Yes, he's in his ninth year. He has an outside shot to get in this year, but his support has slowed down a little bit. I hope to see it happen now because with how weak this ballot is, like why do we need to wait a 10th year to get his bump? Like just bump him now.
00:52:20
Speaker
It's just stupid. Agreed. He becomes the first person to be inducted the Championship or Boss Hall of Fame three times. I don't know if that's how it works, but okay. I think we should say he's already been in. i didn' I'd say we give him three plaques.
00:52:36
Speaker
now No. Oh, jeez. So I have – he's our first member of art of the class of 2026, and he was also a member of the class of 2024 and 2025. Yeah, the only member. The only member. yeah the only met the only member Three years he might be the only member. I thought Felix had a chance. That's what the main part of it was. What are you talking about the well the only member. Oh, you mean this year?
00:53:00
Speaker
This year, yes. Yeah. And that might end up just ruining everything this year. Sorry, I have a high bar, guys. Sorry. And a high bar. Votes for Barry Bonds. Yeah, right. Oh, okay.
00:53:12
Speaker
His bar includes – His bar is selective. Thank God. I'll take one of them. Oh, not one of those. But I'll take one of those. Only one of the best pure hitters in the sport. Yeah, except he did roids. Listen, I love Vons. I think Vons should be in, but pure would not be the way i would describe him.
00:53:29
Speaker
Good point. All right, now we got some ah weeds to sift through, so let's start it. Matt Kemp. No.
00:53:39
Speaker
Matt Kemp is the ultimate what-if story. Man, did the Dodgers really think they had something with this guy, and then turns out he was just bad. ah Well, he had a couple good years, one great year. Yeah, and then he was bad. That's why I said they thought they had something, and then they didn't.
00:53:55
Speaker
He had a second and a tenth MVP finish, three all-star teams, 1,800 hits, 287 home runs. ah Zach, what is your vote? No. No, me neither. You were nervous there.
00:54:07
Speaker
No, I have to ask. The one thing of note that we didn't mention was that he dated Rihanna. I guess that's probably the one. Oh, wow. Oh, damn, put him in right now. Did he date Rihanna? I think he did. You know, I didn't even know that. something up The fact that you knew that is hilarious, actually. He dated for a year, yeah.
00:54:24
Speaker
Right after Chris Brown. So he was the the guy who saved her.
00:54:32
Speaker
You know what? Put him in. That's all I needed here. Am I actually putting on your ballot? No. Okay. I was about to write him down. All right. More weeds.
00:54:43
Speaker
Howie Kendrick. See, it's funny. I actually like him, but no. I do too, but no. Yeah, yeah that one like magical run at the age of 55. For Washington. kind of Don't remember playoff Kershaw at the Grand Slam?
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah. That was him. Yeah. Good for him. ah Good for him. That's the greatest moment of his career because he'll never get in the hole of him. Hole of saved us from ah another asterisk title.
00:55:12
Speaker
Good for him. So thank you for your service, Howie, but no, I'm sorry. Here's an interesting one. We had that Craig Biggio discussion a few months ago.
00:55:22
Speaker
Oh, God. There was an actual time where people were asking the following question. If Nick Markekis hits 3,000 hits, does he get in the Hall of Fame? I was one of those people.
00:55:33
Speaker
That was a common question. What? It was just all over the place, dude. I knew 3,000 hits. he Because he fell off quickly, but there was a time when he he had like 2,000 hits before he turned 30. Dude, his Baltimore days, solid player.
00:55:49
Speaker
No, didn't. By the time he was 33, he had 2,052 hits, and he had four he had five straight 170 hit seasons – or five straight 160 hit seasons in that time.
00:56:00
Speaker
So we were looking at a guy who you know was another six, seven years – oh, I did it. of Six, seven years away from being a 3,000 hit guy.
00:56:14
Speaker
Ew. Yeah, so there was conversation about that. you know If he plays to 40, he can get there. That's disgusting. um But he didn't, and we don't really have to have that conversation. I don't know what's worth. the The thing you just said or this conversation?
00:56:27
Speaker
i I didn't actually say the term, but just rolled with it. The guy, he went to Atlanta and fell off a cliff. If he had better years. Dude, this is Zach's kind of player, though. This is singles. hey That's why I get it. If he had 3,000, he would have been a tough one for me.
00:56:44
Speaker
He qualifies for the whole of pretty good. Yeah, you would have voted for him. Honestly, I might have. Did you vote did you vote for him? No. Oh. I was hoping you would. I i did not.
00:56:57
Speaker
um But if he got 3,000, I would have. Yeah, I would have voted for him. thank yeah I got to say I was surprised when I looked up his numbers, like how like decent they were just as far as his hit total. But everything else about him is like, what?
00:57:11
Speaker
Career 290 hitter? Yeah, I would never have guessed that. I mean, he was on some garbage Oriole teams. so That's true. No one really had a reason to talk about him. That's a good point. Yeah.
00:57:23
Speaker
And then in Atlanta, like Zach said, he fell off a cliff. So that makes sense. um This will be a fun one. Daniel Murphy, Long Island Duck Zone.
00:57:35
Speaker
Long Island Duck Legend, Daniel Murphy. Either one of you, take it.
00:57:42
Speaker
I don't know. How these guys get on the ballot. I'm sorry. yes I'm sorry. Well, for one, I think... How do you mean? Well, I think one prerequisite is that he has a higher MVP finish than Chase Utley ever had.
00:57:57
Speaker
Oh, kill him. Oh, that's cold. Kill him. He had 347 in a season. old He had 347 in one season. Yes, as soon as the Mets dumped him. He went to Washington and hit 347. He checks the postseason box.
00:58:12
Speaker
It's a no. No. But I think he belonged on the ballot to at least he i'll get a, hey, dale mury Daniel Murphy. Almost said Dale Murphy. Hey, Daniel Murphy. Yeah. just hey bring let's watch the play her up couldn't Couldn't field for shit. But, you know, the man was a decent hitter.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah. Got acknowledge that. Could not field at all whatsoever, though. I mean, bad. He was a bad fielder. yeah Well, a good fielder and second baseman, fellow second baseman, Dustin Pedroia.
00:58:51
Speaker
Didn't we? Oh, I've done. Still no. Yeah. I forget. I'm out again. I'm like, no, you're a no again. No, it's sad. Cause honestly, he's a guy who is like in that Felix Hernandez club where if I told you, let's go see the laser show tonight for like two years, maybe three years. You're in my car.
00:59:09
Speaker
He, he was a great player. And Manny Machado killed him. Yes. Literally killed him. But there was a stretch where he had six seasons and five of them were above five war.
00:59:24
Speaker
And that was pretty much it. So shout out to him. He had a good career. I think he firmly belongs on the ballot. He should get his 10 years in the spotlight. I think he's someone that could sneak in on a veteran committee ballot down the line.
00:59:37
Speaker
depending on who's on it with him and depending on, you know, oh boy if they stuff the ballot with some Red Sox people. I don't like that. But I think it could happen. He's a peak guy. Yeah, i guess.
00:59:48
Speaker
I just don't think the peak was long enough. But he does have a couple titles that check that box. Wasn't super special during those title runs.
01:00:00
Speaker
He had a good 2007 postseason, but his 2013 one was not great. not great But yeah, i I'd say he's a no. I'm guessing you guys agree based on what you said before.
01:00:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we so we covered this one last year. You know, he has the one MVP season and some decent seasons, but his career simply was not long enough. Yeah, moving on. but As far as second baseman go, he was he was he's definitely up there.
01:00:25
Speaker
But yeah, the length of his career is the hindrance. Yeah. yeah Hunter Pence. yeah He's actually getting I'm just getting it better myself. Someone actually, someone already said I'm proud to vote him.
01:00:40
Speaker
Who was that? I got to find that. Oh my It was Jose De Jesus. Dude, I'm glad he's outing himself so that somebody can go take away his voting rights. He's an actual voter, guys. Guys, we sit here with no viewership and debate this stuff right to where we're in the face and, like, spend all this time and you got this one idiot that's yeah, I'll vote for Hunter Pence. No problem. I mean, dude, I mean, this has got to be, like, the same guy that's like, I'm not going vote for Derek Jeter or I'm not going vote Etero. No, he did. like Like, it's one – it's just one person who is just stupid or holds a grudge or loves a guy so much and they're just – the guy has no – no case.
01:01:18
Speaker
Do we have his justification? He has no case. Like, there is none. There is no case. There is zero a case for him. Zero. We will get his case, but he wrote, and I quote, Slugger.
01:01:35
Speaker
Slugger? Does the man even have 200 home runs? He does. He has 244 home runs. I was close. Here's the funny part. Josh going to flip out. Slugger Hunter Pence is one of the 12 players debuting on the Hall of Fame ballot. I will proudly vote for him. Ryan Braun, Sinsu Shue, Edwin Encarnacion, Gio Gonzalez, Alice Gordon, Cole Hamels, Matt Kemp, Howie Kendrick, Nick Marcaguson, Daniel Murphy, and Rick Porcello also debut.
01:02:01
Speaker
So Cole Hamels just gets a side credit. Yeah. Ed Skets' vote. i would do Was this guy like a beat writer in in San Francisco or something? ah Good question.
01:02:13
Speaker
I can pull him up. Yeah, should look him up. Like 100 pence to shake his hand or something like one time. For real. And like call him pretty or something. Like I don't get it. He needs to write an article about why he's doing this because this is a great – Former Astros, Mets, and Rays beat writer. Oh, well, he played for the Astros. So he did play. He played for the Astros for a number of years in the early parts of his career.
01:02:32
Speaker
This guy was also the former BBWA president. What? Yeah. And he's voting for Hunter Pence? He's voting for Hunter Pence? Oh, my guys. Oh, come on. Jesus Christ. This dude's not even close to a top 10 player in the league. Like, any time he would be like, what is this guy doing?
01:02:50
Speaker
I'm going to pull up his ballot from last year just so we can get perspective. oh All right. He voted for Bobby Abreu. Carlos Beltran. Felix Hernandez, Andrew Jones, ah no yeahp felix hernandez andre jones ah Andy Pettit, Jimmy Rollins, CeCe Sabathia, E. Cherell. Jimmy Rollins! Oh, here's the funny part. Billy Wagner and David Wright. He voted for 10, he gained a vote for David Wright, and he dropped Chase Utley off his ballot. What?
01:03:18
Speaker
Dude, this guy's got to go. He's gone. He's just got to go. Dude, I don't get it. How you could, with a straight face, put together a ballot like this ridiculously stupid.
01:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's bad. What I need to do is I'm going to quit my job. I'll become a beat writer for the Phillies so I get voting privileges. Oh, dude, it really, it really – It's a 10-year test for Janet. They're just idiots. Like, oh my god. They just – they enjoy having no pain and traveling after the team.
01:03:47
Speaker
To peddle their stupidity. I neglected to mention earlier when we when we started the BBWA, should mention that The MLB.com voters are now able to vote this year for the first time because they were brought into the BBWA in 2015, and now they hit their 10 years.
01:04:04
Speaker
So we're going to have about 50 more new voters this year. Do we think that's a good or bad thing? I don't think it's either, um but it's going depend on their viewpoints. Perspectives, yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. What it means is like what happened last year may not – a lot can change. It's going to be interesting, especially with such a weak ballot.
01:04:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's going interesting to see where things go. Oh, man. I just – he voted for Jimmy Rollins last year and you're going vote for Hunter Pence? Like, do you sit down and think about it for more than two seconds?
01:04:36
Speaker
Listen, gaining – voting Rollins – I think there might be something wrong with his thinking parts. This is unbelievable. Sorry. i know we've got to move on. It's just insane. No, it's okay. Keep it rolling. This is good content. What?
01:04:48
Speaker
Like, no MVP top 10 finishes. um i Yeah, like, I guess under 250 home runs, like, like under 2,000 hits. like What are we doing?
01:04:59
Speaker
Yeah. What are we doing? That's tough. No disrespect to Hunter Pence. I mean, yeah he was an afterthought in his own team for his whole career. Like, I i don't get it. I mean, I like Hunter Pence. Don't get me wrong.
01:05:11
Speaker
But to to even consider him, like, I wouldn't even put him in a hole pretty good. No. He was just there. Oh, that's bad. No. no he was He got 98% of the vote for the hole of pretty good. Okay.
01:05:24
Speaker
Pretty good at what? He's the hole of pretty unanimous. Pretty good at what? Yeah.
01:05:32
Speaker
He was a pretty good player. Stop it. Are the Twitter comments, are they like destroying his house? an above average player. I don't know if I'd call him pretty good. No, he was absolutely pretty good. I'm all for that.
01:05:43
Speaker
What's the public opinion on this writer? are they are they like blasting him? or He should be getting blasted. yeah No one – actually, let me see. No one's even paying attention because he's terrible.
01:05:55
Speaker
Oh, wait, he did. I think this is... Oh, he just replied to it and said, I think this is the year for Carlos Beltran. I bet Andrew Jones makes the jump. Someone goes out of curiosity, what about Abreu? And then someone else said, Hunter's a nice guy and an interesting character. Casting a vote for him shows you're not a serious person. Oh, yeah.
Critique of Sports Writer's Opinions
01:06:11
Speaker
Dude, that's totally accurate. That's so accurate.
01:06:14
Speaker
He is a character. let's Yeah, you cannot be serious. Yeah, no. yeah Well, see, I wonder if he actually votes for him because he didn't get bullied enough to change his mind. that's I mean, I'll reply to him right now on the pod Twitter. Actually, maybe I should have.
01:06:28
Speaker
I'm all for it. Oh, no, it's still here. Slugger, Hunter Pence, the one of 12 players. Yeah, he's – oh, my Jesus Christ. This guy has a following and we don't. Like, yeah, come on.
01:06:42
Speaker
tea He would vote for a Braille too.
01:06:48
Speaker
Yeah, he voted for Abreu. He voted for Rollins. He voted for Wright. And he dropped he did vote for Otley year one and dropped him year two, which makes no sense to me. Nightingale and Hamish. Oh, he's a writer. This guy's got 14,000 followers. we're so And we're smarter than him.
01:07:03
Speaker
Yes. Good Lord. Okay, live tweet. I just tweeted at him. You can't be serious. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Zach, for doing that. Thank you. I'm sure he will respond. No, he will not. No, he won't.
01:07:18
Speaker
i mean, he's got, I've just got nothing better to do if he's tweeting out dumb crap like that. He does actually respond to people sometimes, I've noticed, so maybe.
01:07:27
Speaker
You should ask him what Cenk University gave him ah gave him credentials.
01:07:33
Speaker
What, did he get it from community college? He's an
Debate on Andy Pettit's Induction
01:07:36
Speaker
intelligent writer, I will I don't think he is. He'd suck. Just because, listen, just because you can't make an opinion doesn't, like, if you can do the fundamentals of writing and talk facts. If you can look at stats and tell me that Hunter Pence should be in the Hall of Fame.
01:07:49
Speaker
Yeah. you Dude, i I think we might need to get you tested. You can you can be a good writer and draw piss-poor conclusions from your writing. I think it needs to get tested.
01:08:01
Speaker
Fair enough.
01:08:04
Speaker
Yeah. Wow, probably spent a lot more time on 100 pence you thought, huh, Mac? Yeah, did not expect that at all. um All right, Andy Pettit. Josh Razak wants to go first.
01:08:15
Speaker
My answer hasn't changed. But you have the steroid reason. That makes sense. Anything else to add it now? Not for me. Good talk. Zach?
01:08:26
Speaker
I love him. Love the postseason performance, but I cannot vote him in, though.
01:08:32
Speaker
I'm going to be the only one here. Okay. Whoa. I voted for him this year. I came around. Wow. Wow. Here's why. Number one weak ballot. I won't say that probably didn't play a factor.
01:08:42
Speaker
um But hold that phone hold on. Hold on here. Hold on. I shouldn't change You're going to tell me that you flipped on Andy Pettit because, quote, weak ballot, but you couldn't vote for Cole Hamels? I'm going to get there. Let me explain.
01:08:55
Speaker
i'm not i have and i actually have an explanation. an explanation I basically, when I was looking you know through everything, I told you I spent like 10 minutes on the first year candidates. And then I spent about 45 minutes on the the older guys that I have voted no in the past. Trying to see if I made any mistakes.
01:09:13
Speaker
I think I made a mistake with Andy Pettit. And here's why. um Four top five Cy Young finishes, one second place. So five four finishes that were as good or better than Cole Hamels. I believe three of them were better than Cole Hamels. In a steroid era where he was dealing with the ALEs hitters, Burley and Hamels both never had those.
01:09:33
Speaker
More importantly, he has the most wins of any pitcher ever in the postseason. We talked about the postseason thing, and we knew this already. What I didn't realize was when I went to take a look at the leaderboard for postseason wins for pitchers,
01:09:45
Speaker
I want to ask you guys your opinions on these guys' Hall of Fame cases, okay? Justin Verlander. In. Obviously, yes. Ron Smoltz. Yes. Yes. Tom Glavin. Yes. Yes, obviously. Nathan Kershaw.
01:09:58
Speaker
Yes. Roger Clemens, so we know that. Moving on. now Bill Foster, who is a neighborly great. Greg Maddox. yeah Garrett Cole, which we'll talk about down the line. And Curt Schilling.
01:10:10
Speaker
Yes. That's your top 10 in postseason wins and Andy Pettit's number one. And he has two more than Justin Verlander, and he has four more than anybody else whose names I just mentioned. I forgot that my reasoning is the steroids.
01:10:24
Speaker
Right. So – Yes, I can understand how you would put him ahead of Cole Hamels. So I don't – and the other thing is is considering what we just watched with baseball, I don't think we're ever seeing that amount of wins in a postseason ever again. I don't think anybody's breaking that record. I mean you have to be in a postseason every year and then and perform on top of that. Unless Verlander does.
01:10:46
Speaker
For perspective – I don't know who's going give Verlander a contract, honestly. Yeah. For perspective, this year, Yamamoto had five postseason wins.
01:10:58
Speaker
And that's with an expanded playoff. You know they have that, yeah the wildcard round now. Yeah, and he didn't have that. Pettit has 19 postseason wins. I know, and he has the most game six, like, or series-clenching wins as well.
01:11:13
Speaker
Yeah. So it wasn't even that he had the most because we look at the postseason home run list and not a lot of them have chances to all fame. But when you're a hitter, you're going up three, four times a game.
01:11:23
Speaker
And <unk>re if you're the second or third best guy on your team, you're going to see more pitches than the best guy on your team. So it makes sense that guys who are at the top of the home run leaderboard may not be the best hitters of the team.
01:11:34
Speaker
The pitchers had to be trusted to go at least five innings. and do youll hold down the forward enough to get wins. And Andy Pettit did that 19 times.
01:11:49
Speaker
His ERA is inflated because of the error he pitched. His ERA plus is 117, little low for a Hall of Famer, but I'm grading on a curve because of his postseason play. And you can't call me a homer because I didn't vote for Dom Attingly.
01:12:02
Speaker
So Andy Pettit gets my vote this year, and I'm i'm actually surprised that I'm not hearing more arguing. I don't hate it.
Standards for Hall of Fame Inclusion
01:12:09
Speaker
I don't hate it. Wow. I mean, you know my reason. I'm not going to argue it again. I mean, this is a wasted vote. I understand that, but I have room on the ballot.
01:12:17
Speaker
And i after looking at that, that pushed me over the edge. I didn't realize who 2 to 10 were and how far above he was everybody besides Justin Verlander, who also have benefited from an expanded playoff.
01:12:32
Speaker
No, I don't hate it. I just honestly didn't really think about it this much this year. I didn't until I sat down and started really looking, and that that stuck out. So, he's not getting in.
01:12:45
Speaker
If Bonds and Clemens aren't in, I honestly think he shouldn't be either. But, yeah he gets my vote.
01:12:54
Speaker
I expect to see Cole Hamels on your ballot next year. That's all I'm saying. Alright. Rick Porcello. Uh-huh. Cole of, hey, he won a Cy Young.
01:13:06
Speaker
um i think if we did a fake plaque for him i would literally just write won the cy young and that would be the end of the that's it just just those words four words won the cy young yeah um and whatever year it was cy young winner that's it that's the whole it's the whole plaque
01:13:27
Speaker
any other thing to add no no yeah pretty easy no Then we have two guys that there's not go be much discourse on, honestly. It's Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez. I think we all know where we stand. None of them have changed.
01:13:42
Speaker
I don't think anything really changed from now, from last year to this year.
01:13:49
Speaker
Nope. Still not voting for him. I got to say, watching the HBO doc and realizing how good he was with Seattle and Texas, and like obviously I know he did Royce in Texas, but like he didn't need them.
01:14:01
Speaker
It's really a shame. Yeah, it's sad. yeah It's funny. I saw a clip of it. I think it was from it where they were talking to Jeter and A-Rod. and They would hang out after games, and Jeter was jeer would go home, and he would just you know do something else, and A-Rod would be like, oh, you don't want to watch the late games? Oh, You don't have the MLB package?
01:14:22
Speaker
And Jeter would be like no, I'm not watching that. No baseball. No baseball in this house. Yeah, it's It was, this you know, he's a really interesting guy regardless. He loved baseball so much. He did. He had to cheat.
01:14:35
Speaker
Honestly, yeah. that's That's kind of how his mental state went, which is bad, but. It's a shame, dude, because. It is. You know, favorite player growing up. Yeah. Like I said, he didn't need him to. It it really is a shame he didn't.
01:14:49
Speaker
Just to have just to kind of do a wellness check on our answers here i just want to make sure I have everything right. So, Zach, you have Beltran, Jones, Ramirez, Rodriguez. Yes, sir. Anything I missed?
01:15:00
Speaker
No, I did vote no on Hamels and Hernandez this year. Yes. Josh, Hamels, Hernandez, Jones. Did I miss anybody for you? Nope. That's correct so far. and I have Beltran, Hernandez, Jones, and then I have Ramirez Rodriguez, and then the only thing that's outside of my Venn diagram of relievers and Reuters is Andy Pettit.
01:15:22
Speaker
So everything else I agree with, I agree with with at least one of you. So I'm not that big.
01:15:27
Speaker
I like the Venn diagram. So we talked to steroids. What? The Venn diagram comp is actually really funny. Yeah, you have the steroid side and the reliever side. And then I'm just, you know, happily in the middle.
01:15:38
Speaker
So now we get to the other side Venn diagram.
Discussion on Francisco Rodriguez's Qualifications
01:15:42
Speaker
And we have Francisco Rodriguez. Oh, boy. So everything that Josh and I said last year, I'm guessing, still applies with us. The only thing that did change was that Billy Wagner is now in.
01:15:54
Speaker
Not with the help of Zach, which pretty much sums up the Hall of Fame voting. ah yeah yeah Yep. so But now that Billy Wagner's in, judging based on who's there, that's pretty much the benchmark we're looking at here.
01:16:12
Speaker
um Josh, since I'm guessing your opinion didn't change much, I'll start with you there. You'd be correct. My opinion did not change. He said still be in the Hall of Fame. I agree as well.
01:16:24
Speaker
Zach. All right. Hear me out. I did some research this year. but oh boy. No way. Me being me, didn't vote for him. No, I literally forgot that Billy Wagner made the Hall.
01:16:39
Speaker
Oh, Jesus. I looked at all the other relievers in the Hall of Fame and and, like, you know, parsed their stats and stuff except for Billy Wagner. So please forgive me on this. Now it's going to be a little skewed. I don't think I can forgive you for this one.
01:16:54
Speaker
is all real time. So, this is excluding Moe and Eckersley because Moe is just one of a kind and Eckersley had too many innings pitched a starter so his stats are kind of skewed.
01:17:05
Speaker
I'm guessing you didn't put Smoltz in there either then? No, I did not. Okay, good. So, this i wish I did this based off White Willem, Rich Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Robby Fingers, Bruce Sutter.
01:17:17
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, oh, sorry. Suter. Out of these relievers... K-Rod has the fourth best ERA. Well, second, excuse me, second worst ERA, second worst war, and the second least amount of Ks.
01:17:34
Speaker
But I know they have a lot more innings pitched than him. It is kind of hard to compare these guys. I think the best way to compare it, I like the effort.
01:17:44
Speaker
um I would say... The strikeouts are to be inflated because a lot of those guys you mentioned, like Goss' suitor, Fingers, pitched with more than one inning at a clip.
01:17:56
Speaker
So I think the reliever position evolved. yeah I would say to compare him to Hoffman, Wagner, and obviously not Mariano, but maybe like Craig Kimbrell, Kenley Jansen. Well, yeah. So I did that.
01:18:13
Speaker
Jansen and Kimbrell have better whips, more saves, better war. So my argument is if you guys want me to start voting for these relievers, I don't think K-Rod's the guy.
01:18:24
Speaker
Okay. What if I told you I think all of those guys belong in? That's, yeah, that I don't know. what i can I don't know if I can do that. I happen to agree with Mike on this one. I think Jansen and Kimbrell are both going to get in. I think Jansen and Kimbrell are going to get in as well. I was hesitant on Jansen for a while, and the saves are just piling up. Jansen has the better stats than Kimbrell. Kimbrell's stats, like, he has hundreds of more innings pitched and only, like, five more saves than Jansen. Like, it's bad.
01:18:51
Speaker
And I'll put this to you here. he pitched Jansen pitched 59 games in the postseason, and he has a 2.2 ERA. Yes, out of the these three, out of K-Rod, Kimbrell, Jansen, Jansen has the best stats, I think, overall. See, I would have Jansen as my last of the three, but I think they all belong.
01:19:09
Speaker
What's this off of K-Rod is he wasn't on the best teams either. Yeah. Partially his fault. He went to the Mets. yes Sorry. But, um I mean, we're looking at War, I understand it. He has a higher one than Kimbrell.
01:19:28
Speaker
Kimbrell was dominant, though, at times. like He had a six-year stretch where he was the best closer in baseball. Oh, I know And then he's arguably the worst at times, though, too. like Right. No in-between. So I understand arguments against all three of them.
01:19:43
Speaker
um Let me ask you this though. Since you're – you talked about your comparison. where Where would you draw the line with relievers right now? I don't know because the precedent set is what I – What reliever would you vote for in general? Besides Mariano. Besides Mariano. That's what would – I'm assuming you'd vote for Mariano. Is it him and Hoffman and that's it?
01:20:02
Speaker
no Would you vote Hoffman? I was thinking about, like, say, so K-Rod and these guys are coming in at the bottom half of the Hall of Famers already, or the relievers already in the Hall of Fame. If somebody comes in, obviously not Moe or Hoffman level, so third or fourth, or, like, top tier that way, maybe, but and I don't know. I feel like you're treating relievers like, man, we're just never to see another Babe Ruth. I'm just never going vote another reliever in. It's like you're spoiled by watching Mariano Rivera. It's like nobody will ever be that guy. It's like, yeah, because he was the best that ever did it. It's like i get saying there could never be another Hall Famer because I watched Babe Ruth for 15 years.
01:20:39
Speaker
Right. i don' That's how it feels to me, the way you vote for these guys. I mean, I guess Zach sees relievers as kickers and punters in football. You have to be the all-time best, the best over a 50-year stretch. I also think it kind of has to do with like – It's like goaltenders in hockey. Like if you mess up, like it's going to show.
01:21:01
Speaker
They're very underrepresented as well. It's going to show. Yeah. That's another conversation. We have another day. Yeah. i I don't know where the bet where the the line is for them because the hall like I said, the relievers are already in. The stats are all over the place and nobody is, like you said, their position evolved.
01:21:19
Speaker
um Some guys were former starters, so their stats are skewed. There's no good benchmark, so I don't know. where that starts. Yeah. And that's the tricky part when I did the the scores because I did a milestone bonus for saves worth a hundred each.
01:21:38
Speaker
And like when you get 400 saves, you get a hundred. When you get five or six, you get another hundred. But if you don't like saves, that won't matter. You know?
Evaluation of Joe Nathan
01:21:46
Speaker
So like it is a very subjective thing, but I think voting for the hall fame in general is a very subjective task. Well, let me ask you this too. So think about Joe Nathan. I think outside a as outside of Mo, he was probably the best closer of our childhood, right?
01:22:01
Speaker
That's an excellent one to bring up. And I'm glad you did. Um, it's a saves thing and it's a lack of postseason play thing that made it tough. Like, I think as a closer, you either have to, unfortunately it sucks that saves are the main stat for closers besides, you know, yeah ERA.
01:22:17
Speaker
Um... But they are pretty similar in comparison. When Joe Nathan got on the ballot, i I remember not voting for him. and don't know if we were recording that year. It was 2022, so we weren't. He wasn't on my hypothetical.
01:22:32
Speaker
But the ballot was Ortiz, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Helton, Billy Wagner, Andrew Jones, Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Jeff Kent, Manny, Vizquel, Sosa. like It was loaded.
01:22:44
Speaker
Yeah. So I, he didn't make my 10. I wasn't against him getting in. He's a guy who'd be an interesting veterans committee case down the line. Right. so He's not on my list at the moment.
01:22:55
Speaker
But, you know, um'm I wouldn't be totally against him being in. It's just he has a playoff ERA of 8.1, never got to a World Series. That's not totally his fault.
01:23:05
Speaker
Has two top five Cy Young finishes, so that stands out. But if you don't hit four if you didn't hit 400 saves in the one-inning era and you didn't do anything notable in the postseason, I couldn't find a spot.
01:23:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's tough because when you look at him, you're like he didn't even – but like you you explained that, the ballot was loaded. So that's just back to the ballot being – Yeah, like like he got Delgado shafted. Right.
01:23:28
Speaker
Or Johan Santana shafted. But K-Rod was part of a World Series winning team. He wasn't actually the closer of it, but he won five games. yeah Yeah. He won five games a middle reliever, I guess, because he didn't start one. He finished one, didn't get one save, but won five games.
01:23:48
Speaker
I had a 1.93 ERA in the 2002 World Series run.
01:23:54
Speaker
No, it's tough. I don't know answer on that line. Can I interject? Yeah. ah So, yeah, the saves thing for closers is is like it's like wins for pitcher, like a starter.
01:24:08
Speaker
It is a subjective number, right? ah So I think you have to look a little deeper than just that. And I'm not saying that that number is not important because it's very important. ah If you look at ERA, and I think if you look at the All-star appearances and Cy Young finishes.
01:24:28
Speaker
If you are making an all-star team as a closer, you are probably the best or second best closer in the league at that time. And if you are getting Cy Young votes as a closer, you must have done been doing something special.
01:24:45
Speaker
And he has that multiple times in his career for K-Rod.
01:24:52
Speaker
So, yeah, he's not Mariano Rivera, but he was the best player and a great closer for his pretty much his entire career.
01:25:04
Speaker
I don't think you
Debate on Chase Utley's Candidacy
01:25:05
Speaker
can hold them to the same standard as you hold a starting pitcher, too.
01:25:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's you're right. I know you can't. I just guess I'm struggling on where to where to start that. I'm making strides, so... You can't just have none of them, is my point. Somebody has to be...
01:25:22
Speaker
you know, the best player at this position. No, right. So out of you're you're really saying out of K-Rod, Jansen, Kimbrell, you would put all of them in. Yes. of These guys were feared, the most feared pitchers coming out of the bullpen in baseball for 10 plus year stretches. Yes, I would. Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:25:46
Speaker
But let me throw this name out there with you guys. Dan Quisenberry. He was a one and done on the BBWA. Got on the veterans committee once. Was in the less than amount of votes tier. He led the league in saves five times.
01:25:59
Speaker
He has five top five Cy Young award finishes, including two runner-ups as a reliever. But he only finished with 244 career saves. Because his career only lasted like six years.
01:26:12
Speaker
But he finished top five in Cy Young voting five times. Has four top ten MVP finishes. Wow. So, dominant. But the save numbers low.
01:26:24
Speaker
So, saves don't matter. This guy needs to look at, too. He has a career ERA under three. No. No. He didn't play long enough.
01:26:35
Speaker
I would basically say the guys that you mentioned, Zach, and Quisenberry would be my line. I would not pick was Mary did not play long enough. Fair enough. I understand your, your, your point here, but yeah you're talking about a guy who played six, seven years. You're talking about a guy who who did not play very long all years. He had a six year peak, but I will point this out. He i played six years. Well, I guess he did. Yeah, I guess that's true. He did play a lot later on. They do have an award called reliever of the year.
01:27:05
Speaker
Two pitchers have five reliever of the year awards. Mariano Rivera and Dan Quisenberry. Wow. And he deserves it all five of those years. Mm-hmm.
01:27:17
Speaker
Problem is every other year of his career, it just wasn't.
01:27:22
Speaker
Look out, though. Quisenberry and Rivera have five. Raleigh Fingers and Suter have four. Edwin Diaz has three.
01:27:30
Speaker
You know, it's funny you bring that up. Because I was going to ask Zach if he thought Edwin Diaz had any chance getting in the Hall of Fame. Off the top of my head, I would say no, but I mean, I don't know stats look like. You sad little man.
01:27:44
Speaker
Okay. All right. We get to Josh's two favorites on here. We only have four guys left, so we're actually doing pretty decently. All right. Good. Jimmy Rollins. No.
01:27:58
Speaker
that now He won an MVP. He never finished above 10th in any of the season. Has four gold gloves and three All-Stars, but it's not enough to overcome a 95 OPS plus. Unless you vote for Hunter Pence, then you have to vote for Hunter Pence. I was about to say that. I was about to say that.
01:28:15
Speaker
He's goal of the Hunter Pence. ball is pretty good. The ball is pretty unanimous, I believe. All right. Chase Utley.
01:28:24
Speaker
Go ahead, Sherm. Say your silly little queen. Get on with it. I have to hear Mike. i have to hear Mike. Tell me. Did you vote for him? I did. There we go. Excellent. Thank you. ah did.
01:28:34
Speaker
Thank you. Of course I voted for him. He deserves to be in it. No. Screw you. Now, normally, what you want, I was consistent with him and Hamels. never finished seven Never finished above seventh in MVP voting would normally make me a pretty much automatic no.
01:28:53
Speaker
But I'm going to go. I have room on the ballot. Read the total stats. Read them. I know, but it's second base. There's not a lot of total stats there. do i need dont need to read Do I need to read the other ones to you, Zach, again?
01:29:09
Speaker
Oh, we get it. We get it. Do I need to read it to you, Zach? No. Are you sure? I know you want to, so go ahead. I gotta find it. Hold on.
01:29:19
Speaker
Actually, you know what? I have a potential outlay case here. If you're a war guy, I get it. five seasons with seven or more. Yes. that's ah That's actually a lot. Here we go.
01:29:31
Speaker
Here we go. and am Oh, boy. up Only 17 middle infielders who played 51% of their games the middle infield hit 250 home runs.
01:29:43
Speaker
And of those, three of them were worth at least 15 defensive war. Hall Famer, Cal Ripken Jr., Hall Famer, Joe Gordon. These are two no-doubt Hall of Famers, and Chase Utley. Okay?
01:29:54
Speaker
Zach also voted no on Joe Gordon. Pathetic. 32 players had 1,700 games up the middle while maintaining 115 OPS+. 23 of them are either in the Hall of Fame, still active, or have steroid allegations.
01:30:11
Speaker
Only three of them have also saved 100 runs with their glove. Willie Mays, Gary Carter, and you can't tell me you didn't vote for those two. And Chase Utley. Okay?
01:30:23
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Only 17 middle infielders in the MLB history have hit 250 home runs. Of them, Utley ranks 7th in OBP. Utley ranks 57th in career WAA, wins above average.
01:30:39
Speaker
54 of the 56 players ahead of him are in the Hall Fame active or have steroid allegations. 14 second basemen with a minimum of 1,500 games since 1900. since nineteen hundred have reached 1,000 RBIs and 1,000 runs scored.
01:30:55
Speaker
Ten Hall of Famers, Lou Whitaker, Jeff Kent, Robinson Cano, and Chase Ulley. And for what it's worth, of those 14 players, Ulley is second and career defensive runs saved.
01:31:10
Speaker
He was doing it on both sides of ball, gentlemen. You know, I gotta say, that was the best case you've ever made for him. It was, but no. my though I really objectively, the only thing is i I find it very hard to get past the never finishing in even the top six in MVP voting. Listen, get it. i get it. And there's an argument against that.
01:31:33
Speaker
But my point, and I will keep driving this point home, is that at second base, he was the best second baseman in baseball that was not doing steroids like Cano was for a 10-year period.
01:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, listen, I think if we open up that case, and i'm not ah I'm not against that case. That's a fair case that a lot of people make for other guys. I think we've got to open doors for Dale Murphy. think we've got to open doors for Don Mattingly. I don't know if you wouldn't put any of those guys in. I know, and I know that.
01:32:04
Speaker
I just wish that the Hall of Fame would consider doing that. I don't think, like, I've never been a big Lou Whitaker advocate. um And my reason being is because for a guy who's super big with war, he has like, I don't know. Let me see. Hang on one second. He has four seasons above five and never hit seven once.
01:32:25
Speaker
Chase only has five where he hits seven.
01:32:29
Speaker
Dude, that's the thing. It's like if you compare Ellie to other second basemen and then you add in the war factor, he has a case. There is a case. If there is a case, I mean, the 5-7 war seasons opened my eyes pretty quick, I have to admit. And I'm not a big war guy, but that is something legitimate that I literally just realized on top. I'm telling you, if you start comparing him to...
01:32:51
Speaker
Baseball players in general, yes, I can understand why you would not put him in as this guy deserves to be in Hall of Fame. I get it. But if you compare him to other second basemen, I don't know how you can't say that this guy is just as good old as all the other Hall of Famers.
01:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think he would be a level one type guy. i'm um' I'm okay with that. Put him in. Looking at my list now, my second baseman would be – know this is bad for podcast content, but I know you said we can cut it.
01:33:25
Speaker
um My lowest guy was Bobby Doerr, who has better hitting stats, doesn't have the defensive stats he does, and then Joe Gordon, who's comparable. I mean, granted, he missed time. He's a military service, but Utley didn't get into the bigs until he was 24.
01:33:41
Speaker
twenty four Right. Can we really hold the rates that's against him? He didn't have his first full season until he was 26. Right. So, yeah, he's going to have less than 2,000 hits. I'm not – I'm coming around, Josh.
01:33:53
Speaker
See, the thing is, like, if you think about it, we're in the year 2025, right? What other second baseman – deserves to be in the Hall of Fame since the year 2000. Altuve. I can only think of two guys. Both of them are riddled with accusations. You have Robinson Cano, who, not accused, I mean, he got suspended for steroids, and Jose Altuve, who was the architect of the trash can banging.
01:34:20
Speaker
Altuve will get involved. He'll still get in. Yeah, Altuve is going to get in. But that doesn't make him not a dirty cheater, because he is. Right. Altuve is the only clean guy on the list. Altuve may not have been a cheater, but Altuve was dirty.
01:34:31
Speaker
i You can continue to say that. He was playing the game within the rules. Yes, but ah the one thing that's really giving me applause the MVP finish is the Mets fans are salty that Daniel Murphy can't make a simple flip throw to second base. Yeah, I know, right?
01:34:49
Speaker
He's honestly the the hitting version of Cole Hamels. He was consistently good for a long time. Yeah.
01:35:02
Speaker
I'm not ready to put him on my list yet, but I'm ready to check his name off for the ballot.
01:35:08
Speaker
I might get there one day with the with the list too.
Voting Strategies and Final Thoughts
01:35:12
Speaker
that i I'm more open to it today than I was before. It's just a shame that he peaked after 30. Because he's kind of the reverse Andre Jones. If he played the full way and had 10 years of this, we wouldn't have a discussion.
01:35:28
Speaker
For any of us. Yeah. Yeah. um Yeah, i listen, i'm I'm more open to it. I'm checking his name. All right. We're getting the pity vote, but now I got you thinking, at least. i'm i'm less of a I'm not a pity vote this year. im i may I don't want to be on the wrong side of history. All right, we'd love to see it.
01:35:49
Speaker
Zach, ah you hear that? Wrong side of history. I know you don't really have a problem with that because you've done it so many times. All right.
01:35:57
Speaker
i also At least, you know, you got to get one win here, my friend. Where, believe it or not, what you what helped you with Chase Utley getting me more on board was the Felix Hernandez thing, where I i feel like a spaz that didn't pick him last year. Yep.
01:36:12
Speaker
Because I wanted to. You heard me. It's live. It's on there. I wanted to. know um but And I remember looking at it last year and going, man, Cole Hamels, I could get behind this. And then when i said that to myself, I was like, can I really not?
01:36:26
Speaker
vote for Hernandez, but vote for Cole Hamels.
01:36:30
Speaker
And when I came to shove this year and I really sat and and looked at it, but I couldn't. I had to vote for both of them.
01:36:40
Speaker
So I'm glad that you've come around on Chase Utley. Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Zach, I'm sorry that you have again put yourself in this position. let let me I'm working on a K-Rod. Let me do that one first. Maybe by next year. There's so many you've got to work on.
01:36:58
Speaker
At least we can come around at Bill White. Yeah.
01:37:04
Speaker
You won't have to do work with these last two, really. I don't think. Omar Vizquel.
01:37:14
Speaker
No. No. i See, this is an example of where my bar got lowered over the course of time with this Really? No, I'm saying like I made this list in 2020. I made this list in 2020.
01:37:27
Speaker
And 2023, did an expansion and I added him in regretfully. But that doesn't mean I have to vote for him now and I'm not doing so. So he's a no. um Also with the allegations that came out, I i know where you stand on this.
01:37:44
Speaker
what he is accused of is so blatantly despicable, I can't get behind it anyway, even if I did feel he was worthy. I'm a no.
01:38:00
Speaker
David Wright. sad no. Very sad no.
01:38:07
Speaker
Josh, you said something interesting the other day. ah Yeah, I mean, no. like I can't. you You said you'd vote for him as a veterans committee. did say I'd vote for him as a veterans committee.
01:38:20
Speaker
What does that even mean? you if he's It's the same plaque. ah Yeah, I mean, you know... it's It's literally the same plaque in the same being dead when you've or It feels like a different vote, though. It it does. i it does like I feel when when we're sitting here and we're doing like the full ballot, it's like, yes, this guy...
01:38:43
Speaker
you know, is a Hall of Famer. Absolutely. And it feels like when you're doing that veterans ballot, it's like, man, I really like this guy and I think he deserves it because, you know, this and that. And, he you know, he had this thing and, you know, he was a nice guy and and stuff like that. Yeah.
01:39:00
Speaker
It just feels like a different, it's like, it's like a I know. like a second chance. It is. Well, I mean, yeah, it is. But it feels that way. It doesn't it doesn't feel like, ah wow this guy got chaffed. It's kind of like, can I make a reason for this guy getting a vote? I will use all of my votes.
01:39:20
Speaker
For a Veterans Committee ballot. Does that make sense? Yes. Do we understand how backward that is, though? Oh, I'm not saying it isn't. yeah The whole reason they get to the second chance is because people didn't vote for them the first time.
01:39:32
Speaker
so we're going to be more generous this time. We should be more generous now. And then just be like hard no when they get up to that point. Like, if anything, we should be voting for them now. And then, all right, yeah had you had your shot.
01:39:45
Speaker
No.
01:39:48
Speaker
That's kind of how I always saw it. I mean, all the guys I'm voting for are guys I would have voted for on this ballot without blinking. I would have liked David Wright, but no. i I really, really want to vote for Wright, but I can't. I'm a no. If I'm a no on Pedroia, I can't justify Wright. No, yeah, absolutely not.
01:40:05
Speaker
So just to finalize here, our ballots are – I'm just finishing up. Zach, you have Beltran, Jones, Manny, A-Rod. Small haul, baby.
01:40:17
Speaker
You have four. Josh, last year I think had less than you, but now he has more. Josh, you have Cole Hamels, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Jones, Francisco Rodriguez, and Chase Utley.
01:40:29
Speaker
This is correct. ah well I'm sure I didn't leave anybody out. And I have Carlos Beltran, Felix Hernandez, Andrew Jones, Andy Pettit, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Francisco Rodriguez, and Chase Utley.
01:40:44
Speaker
Wow. Part of me wants to say screw it and vote Hamels right now. Do it. I have the spot.
01:40:54
Speaker
I have the spot. ahead. Screw it.
01:41:01
Speaker
Oh, Zach. All right. Hamels. We got one guy. We got one guy voted in this year. Somebody we voted in last year. Congratulations, Andrew Jones. Three-time championship robust Hall of Fame inductee.
01:41:19
Speaker
And shout out to Zach for making this process a lot less fun. I'm a small guy. I'm coming around on this reliever benchmark. I'm trying. I didn't just dismiss it this year. I actually put in some effort.
01:41:32
Speaker
and I'll be at the wrong type of effort, but we tried. No, I do reserve the right to change my mind on Cole Hamels next year, but right now I'll do it. I have room on the ballot. night Again, it's ah I don't want to be on the wrong side of history vote.
01:41:47
Speaker
Plus it's lame to vote for four. Give me nine. sister And that wraps up our third annual 2026 Hall of Fame episode of Championship or Bust. I had a great time. I hope you guys had a great time. And I hope listeners, i hope you guys had a great time. Please comment on where we messed up. We really want to hear from you. So let us know. Give us your cases. I still have one more spot on my ballot if anyone wants to pitch something to me. And I'm open to using it.
01:42:18
Speaker
I'll see you guys later. Thanks so much for joining us.