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Episode 58 - The 1947 World Series- Jackie Robinson
18 Plays10 days ago
Josh breaks down a thriller of a World Series between the Yankees and the Dodgers, as the Yanks go on to win their first title since 1943.
With this episode being the first appearance of a few great historical figures, Mac walks us through some engaging debates. Is Yogi Berra the best catcher of all-time? Does Archie Vaughn deserve to be in the HOF? What do we do think about Gil Hodges?
We also take a minute to recognize Jackie Robinson and al he's done for the game of Baseball.
On the current event side of things, Zach introduces the MLBPA's solution to circumvent a salary cap and the owners response with a cap proposal of their own.
All this and more on the latest episode of Championship or Bust!
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Transcript
Celebrating the Knicks Championship
00:00:01
Speaker
Who let the dogs out? Who? we Who? Who? What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Championship on Bus, and how can we start this any other way? Now, I understand that we are not a basketball podcast, but we have a championship in New York City for the first time since we were in seventh grade.
00:00:22
Speaker
The New York Knicks have won a title, and being the only New Yorker on this pod, I'm very happy to it. What? What? Neither one of you live here. Jeffers, New Yorkers, if you live here... live up there? That doesn't matter. you're You left. You've given up your fandom. Turn us away. Wow.
00:00:40
Speaker
Anyway, the New York Knicks have won a title, and being the only New Yorker on here, I'm happy to say that I've lived to tell the
Basketball vs. Baseball Interest
00:00:46
Speaker
tale. What a moment. Zach is here, from live from Philly, of course, doing his best Mikael Bridges Instagram live impression. i don't know if you guys saw that, but he was very, very drunk. That was funny.
00:00:58
Speaker
Josh actually watched some basketball for one. so that might be actually the most newsworthy thing on the tonight's pod because I'm not going lie. I, for one, have been so basketball invested that my baseball has been a little off lately. So i'm kind of working my way back in, but we'll get there for now.
1947 Yankees-Dodgers World Series Overview
00:01:14
Speaker
Let's head to 1947 because nothing's changed there.
00:01:17
Speaker
Josh, go ahead. You're right. Nothing has changed. 1947, New York Yankees are back in the World Series as always. Crossed down rival, the Brooklyn Dodgers.
00:01:31
Speaker
The Yankees would enter the series finishing 97-57, winning the American League by 12 games, while the Dodgers finished 94-60, winning the National League by five games. In 1947, Jackie Robinson desegregated Major League Baseball. Yay! World Series history a racially integrated team played.
00:01:52
Speaker
How exciting, boys. It is history. I know Zach is super excited about this one. So other than than that being a major first, this was also the first World Series to be televised. However, because TV broadcasting was still really early on, it was only seen in four major markets ah via coaxial interconnected stations in New York, New York City, Philadelphia, Albany, and Washington, D.C.
00:02:17
Speaker
But hey, that's still pretty cool. market Albany is a big market back then. Wow. Apparently so, yes. This also was the first World Series that had six umpires.
00:02:29
Speaker
ah From 1918 until 1946, they had four umpires, you know, the usual four infield umpires, and they had two alternates that were available if needed. You know, somebody gets hurt, whatever, sick, you know, things happen.
00:02:42
Speaker
ah But they had never actually needed one of those alternates. So the commissioner at the time, Happy Chandler, said, why are we paying these guys sit around and do nothing? Go stand on the foul winds.
00:02:53
Speaker
Might as well. Yeah, might as well. So this was the first World Series that featured six umpires, which should we used today. and I mean, guess that's kind of cool for them, too. I feel like no umpires going to complain about working the World Series.
00:03:06
Speaker
Yeah. You're like number five, and now you get to do it. That's kind of true. And money's money. Money is money. So game one at Yankee
Game Highlights and Key Plays
00:03:15
Speaker
Stadium. So the Dodgers strike first in the top of the first inning on Dixie Walker's RBI single.
00:03:19
Speaker
In the bottom the fifth, the Yankees finally strike back. After a single, a walk, and hit-by-pitch load in the bases, Johnny Lindell hit a two-run double to take a 2-1 lead. Another walk reloaded the bases, and another walk pushed across the run.
00:03:31
Speaker
After a groundout, Tommy Heinrich singled in two more, making it 5-1. In the sixth, the Dodgers started to chip away at that lead, getting it a run on Carl Furrier's RBI single, and then getting another run in the seventh when Pee Rees scored on a wild pitch. But that's all the Dodgers could get. Yankees taking game one, 5-3.
00:03:47
Speaker
Game two. So the Yankees strike first in the bottom of first when Johnny Lindell grounded into a double play with men on the corners and no outs. The runner scoring from third. The Dodgers got that run back in the top the third on a Jackie Robinson RBI single. But the Yankees would regain the lead in the bottom of the inning on Johnny Lindell's RBI triple. In the fourth, the Dodgers tie it again on Dixie Walker's solo home run. But the Yankees regain the lead in the bottom inning on Phil Rizzuto's RBI double.
00:04:10
Speaker
In the bottom of the fifth, the Yankees add on with Tommy Heinrich's solo shot and later in the inning an RBI single from George McQuinn. Yankees would add another in the sixth on a sack fly to make it 6-2. But in the seventh, they really broke it open. After a leadoff single and a wild pitch, Billy Johnson singled in a run. After a pop-out and an intentional walk, Allie Reynolds singled in another.
00:04:29
Speaker
This is the greatest name I've ever heard. i just want to say this right now. Snuffy Sternweiss. Snuffy Sternweiss. Singled in another run and a wild pitch scored another to make it double digits 10 runs for the Yankees. The Dodgers got one back in the ninth off a ground out, but that's it. I Reynolds would throw the complete game for the Yankees in a 10 to three win and take a 2-0 series lead.
00:04:50
Speaker
Now, Game 3, moved over to Ebbets Field, where the Dodgers would excite the home crowd in the bottom the second by knocking in six runs. After one-out walk, Bruce Edwards doubled in a run and scored on a P.B. Re-single.
00:05:02
Speaker
After another single and a pass ball, Eddie Snanky doubled in two more runs, knocking Yankee starter Bobo Newsom from the game. But that didn't stop the Dodgers, as Carl Ferreo doubled in two more runs off Yankee's reliever. The Yankees, however, wouldn't go down without fight. at the top a third, Johnny Lindell Joe DiMaggio hit back-to-back RBI singles, cutting the lead to four. Dodgers would get another run in the bottom the inning on Spider Jergensen's RBI single. Another just absolutely fantastic game.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of great names the series. In the top of the fourth, Sherm Lawler hit an RBI double, then scored on Stuffy Sternois' RBI single. The Dodgers would get those runs right back in the bottom the inning on back-to-back RBI singles from Dixie Walker and Gene Hermanski. In the top of the fifth, Joe DiMaggio launched a two-run homer, cutting the lead to three. In the sixth, Tommy Heinrich doubled in a run.
00:05:45
Speaker
And then in the seventh, Yogi Berra hit a pinch-hit solo shot to make it a one-run game, the first pinch-hit home run in World Series history. That's how the game would stay. Hugh Casey sent the Yankees down in order in the ninth. Dodgers taking game three, 9-8.
00:06:00
Speaker
Game seven saw Yankees striking the top of the first on a bases loaded walk, but that was all they could get in the inning. In the fourth, the Yankees would push across another on Johnny Lindell's RBI double. Dodgers would get a run back and a bomb the fifth without ever even recording a hit.
00:06:12
Speaker
Two walks, a sack bunt, and a field of choice scored a run, making 2-1. In the ninth inning, Bill Blevins had still not given up a hit. After a foul out and a walk, the ninth walk of the game, his ninth walk of the game, ah and another batter fouling out, he now has two outs.
00:06:34
Speaker
A pinch runner came in. Stole second base. So you know what? They decided to walk the batter.
00:06:43
Speaker
Cookie Lavaghetto comes off the bench as an inch hitter. Another fantastic name. And on a one o pitch, lines a ball into right field, the ball taking a weird bounce off the wall, both runners coming around to score, a walk-off hit to end the no-hitter and the game.
00:07:00
Speaker
and Imagine throwing eight and two-thirds no-hit innings and then losing on one singular hit. That is tough. yeah But also imagine walking nine guys in a game.
00:07:14
Speaker
No. Yeah, no. Luis, is that you? So here we are. The Dodgers could have been down 3-1 and have now tied the series at two games apiece.
00:07:26
Speaker
So we move on to game five, which was scoreless until the fourth inning. when pitcher Speck Shea singled in a run for the Yankees after two walks. At the top the fifth inning, Yankees would another on a Joe DiMaggio solo shot. The Dodgers would get that run back in the bottom of the sixth, thanks to a Jackie Robinson RBI single.
00:07:42
Speaker
The Dodgers looked to tie the game in the ninth, getting a run at a second with one out, thanks to a single and a sack bunt. Speck Shea got a fly out to get two outs. And here comes Cookie Lavagato again, off the bench, pinch hitter, looking to strike some magic for a second game in a row.
00:07:57
Speaker
But Speckshay gets him to strike out to end the game. Couldn't do it. Yankees taking game five, two to one, taking three games to two series lead. Now series shifts back to Yankee Stadium, where the Dodgers would strike first in the top of the first on three straight singles to load the bases with no outs.
00:08:14
Speaker
And a double play knocked in a run and a pass ball led to another, making a two nothing Dodgers right from the start. In the third, the Dodgers would add two more runs. Next, there were three straight doubles from Pee Rees, Jackie Robinson, dicky walk and Dixie Walker.
00:08:28
Speaker
In the bottom of the inning, after a double, a wild pitch, an error got the Yankees on the board. Of course. Oh, we love these errors. After a single, Johnny Lindell singled another run. Another single led to Billy Johnson and Bobby Brown hitting RBI singles tie the game at four.
00:08:44
Speaker
In the bottom of the fourth, Yogi Berra's RBI single gave the Yankees their first lead, a 5-4 lead. In the top of sixth, after a single and a double, Cookie Lavaghetto's sack fly tied the game before Bobby Bragan hit an RBI single to give the Dodgers a lead.
00:08:57
Speaker
After another single, Pee Wee Reese hit a two-run single, making it 8-5. We love singles. Zach is loving this right now. We do love this, folks. We absolutely love this. in the bottom of the inning with two on and two out, Joe DiMaggio hit a drive out to left field where Al Gianfrido, who had entered the game as a defensive replacement that inning, made an incredible catch right up against the bullpen gate, a bull that surely would have gone over the fence. And there are videos of this play online. And if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend going and looking at it because was it was a pretty impressive catch. This ball absolutely would have gone out.
00:09:31
Speaker
And DiMaggio ended up... ah rounding first base and kicking up dirt when he realized the ball had been caught. Many people said this was one of the few times that they ever saw DiMaggio get mad. Oh, wow.
00:09:44
Speaker
um So, yeah, the Dodgers would held on to that three-run lead. ah So DiMaggio did not tie the game with three-run lead. The Dodgers would head to the bottom of the ninth where the Yankees would load the bases.
00:09:55
Speaker
But they were only able to score one run via ground out. The Dodgers would take game six, eight to six, and force a game seven. So that play loomed very large. So game seven, Dodgers strike first in the top the second.
00:10:09
Speaker
they strung together four consecutive hits, Gene Hermansky tripled and scored on Bruce Edwards' single, Carl Freo singled, and then Spire Jurgensen doubled in Edwards. But in the bottom of that inning, after two walks, Phil Rizzuto singled in a run to cut the lead to one.
00:10:21
Speaker
In the bottom of the fourth, with two outs and two on, Bobby Brown came off the bench and doubled in a run to tie the game. After a walk load of the bases, Tommy Heinrich singled in a run to give the Yankees a three to two lead. In the bottom of the sixth, the Yankees would add on another run. Phil Rizzuto bunted for a hit, stole second, and scored on an Allie Clark single. Again, sack loving this. loves small ball.
00:10:41
Speaker
And in the bottom of the seventh, Aaron Robinson added another run on a sack fly. Joe Page finished the game for the Yankees, throwing five innings of relief, retiring 13 batters in a row at one point. The Dodgers would finally threaten him in a ninth when Eddie Mixis singled with one out, but Page got Bruce Edwards to ground to a double play to end the game and end the series. The Yankees taking game seven, five to two, and winning the World Series.
00:11:06
Speaker
Nail-biter. Quite the series. Yeah.
00:11:11
Speaker
This is going to a fun, is he a Hall of Famer?
Yogi Berra vs. Johnny Bench: Who's Greater?
00:11:15
Speaker
Uh-oh. A fawn one. I'm going to do it a little differently tonight. I know I normally start with the losing teams, but there's so much interesting stuff of the Dodgers, um including what I think might be the most contentious debate we've ever had.
00:11:29
Speaker
And no, I'm not talking about Jackie Robinson. um But let's talk about the the New York Yankees first for a second. Manager Bucky Harris. This is his first title as exclusively a manager, but you may remember, our my our most dedicated fans may remember, that the 1924 and 1925 World Series, he won and then lost 25 as a player manager.
00:11:50
Speaker
So this is last his last one, but his first one as just a manager. So happy trails to Bucky Harris, number 21 manager of all time. Joe DiMaggio, championship robust Hall of Famer, class of 1936. I'm going to start adding that in, I think, whenever we have someone that was a unanimous pick from us. Sixth ring and seven World Series.
00:12:11
Speaker
I won't do it. I won't do it. I won't do it. He wasn't great here, though. He was six for 26 with two home runs. So when he hit, he hit it hard. Came out to like a 231 with 837 OPS. ah but Level five, number four center fielder between Trish Speaker and Mickey Mantle. Phil Rizzuto would have been a championship of us Hall of Famer, but it's the only person that I've ever been the reason why they're out. But it's their second ring in three World Series.
00:12:37
Speaker
Zach will like this one, as Josh was mentioning. Pretty common theme. Eight for 26, seven singles. yeah 308, batting average, 746 OPS, and he remains in the basement.
00:12:48
Speaker
And our only 308 average with a 346 slugging. Yeah. checks out My type of player, baby.
00:12:58
Speaker
And our only newcomer for the Yankees, welcome to Championship Robust, Mr. Yogi Berra. Believe it or not, we haven't talked about him yet, but we will make up for lost time. He's in a lot of these. ah But this was technically his second season, but his first somewhat full season. He played 83 regular season games.
00:13:14
Speaker
um This series, he wasn't great. He was 3-for-19 with a home run. But... Is he a Hall of Famer? This won't take long. 15 All-Star seasons, 3 MVPs, 2 MVP runner-ups, 2,150 hits, 358 home runs, and 1430 runs batted in as a catcher. 59.5 war, which is 6 all-time among catchers, and what am I forgetting? Oh, yeah, 14 World Series appearances and 10 rings. Yep.
00:13:41
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:13:44
Speaker
Obviously. Yeah. The real question is, is he the greatest catcher of all time? We should do that one day. You stole that right from under me. Oh, sorry. I'm ready to go. want to debate it right now? Because i ah I'm a Yogi stan. I actually don't really like Johnny Bench that much, but...
00:13:58
Speaker
So let's compare it directly. So um we'll start with everything. Yogi played 19 seasons, made 15 all-star teams. Johnny Bench played 17 seasons, made 14 all-star teams. Johnny Bench won two championships and made two other World Series. Yogi Berra won 10 World Series and was in four of them. um Johnny Bench was a two-time MVP. Yogi Berra was a three-time MVP and a two-time runner-up.
00:14:23
Speaker
a career ah Johnny Bench has 10 gold gloves to Yogi's zero. So Johnny Bench also led the league in home runs twice and runs batted in twice. And I don't believe Yogi really led the league in anything.
00:14:37
Speaker
So there is a debate here. um In terms of the career numbers, I'm going by my list right now. So might be a couple typos here and there. But Yogi hit 285 for his career. Bench hit 267. I won't do it. I won't do it. I won't do it. um Yogi had an 830 OPS to Bench's 817. Yogi has 102 more hits in 30 less games. Wow. um Yogi has 30 less home runs, and Yogi has about 56 more runs batted in.
00:15:14
Speaker
Sorry, 54 more runs batted in. um Postseason, Yogi hit eight points higher, had two more home runs, and 19 more runs batted in, but played 30 more games than bench.
00:15:27
Speaker
It's tight. It's closer than you think because I feel like whenever, at least I've seen this conversation, people think Bench runs away with it, and I don't get it. That's how I I don't it. That's how I feel the way you do, what you're saying right now. Okay.
00:15:43
Speaker
I don't necessarily echo what those people are saying. i misspoke. Yeah. I wonder why that is, though. I really don't get it I think catching is so synonymous with defense, and I think the 10-goal gloves does it. And also, you're a 10-time goal glove catcher who led the league in home runs twice.
00:15:59
Speaker
I get it. I get it. like I do get the case. um But the like I said, the way people present it, it's like it's always it's always been bench. you know There's nobody better than bench. And when you actually look at it, yogi Yogi's right there.
00:16:14
Speaker
So if we're going by top five versus 10 MVP finishes, right? Bench has the two that he won and has two other fourth places and then a 10. Four top five, five top 10.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yogi has five top two. Wow. ah Three, one, four, two, one, one, two. He has eight top four MVP finishes. yeah um Interesting.
00:16:41
Speaker
War bench does beat him. ah Yogi has 59.5 bench has, I think 70, 75. seventy five So the war is there.
00:16:52
Speaker
um Bench only had about a hundred more at bats than Yogi. So they are pretty even in terms of like their, their sample size. That's so interesting. Do you just think it's because Bench is the more modern guy and more people saw him play?
00:17:07
Speaker
I think there's a couple things. I think that's one factor. I think um Yogi and Bench also had this benefit to an extent. Yogi played on some really good Yankee teams. Yeah. um Bench also played on some really good red teams. But my point is people tend to gravitate towards being anti-Yankee when they can.
00:17:24
Speaker
People always say there's a Yankee bias with the Hall of Fame. I think it's actually the opposite now because I think if Don Mattingly or, uh, Andy Pettit played in other uniforms, I think there actually might have more of a hall of fame case. I feel was immediately write them off. Cause they don't to they don't want it to be the hall of Yankees.
00:17:43
Speaker
Right. Um, so I think that has a factor too, is almost like the anti Yankee bias, um, with fans at least. I'm i'm curious, uh, if they had been doing,
00:17:56
Speaker
um gold gloves when Barra was in his prime. If he would have they I know. Yeah, that's why I'm saying. i don't know If he would have won one or two or multiple.
Jackie Robinson's Impact Beyond Baseball
00:18:08
Speaker
So just for just for the sake of pure comparison, doing the Hall of Fame probability stuff, they're actually three points apart. Bench has 194. Barra has 191 from my percentage point. So they are damn close just weighing the resumes together.
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah. but They are literally neck and neck. That is not... definitive enough by any means to come to a conclusion like bench is 40th all time and yogi's 42nd it's that thin right well i don't really know where i so i'll let you guys answer it first because i have my my list that tells me my answer and i'll stick for that of course so what do you guys think oh josh you go i've i've spoken a lot uh i would i would uh say johnny pinch
00:18:57
Speaker
Number one. Really? Why? are Well, I think the Gold Gloves speak a lot. ah even even if ben Even if Barrett didn't, ah they weren't giving out Gold Gloves at the time. Bench was statistically a better defensive catcher pretty pretty significantly. i don't know. ah You have a guy that hit home runs from a catching position and won two MVPs and didn't quite play as long as Barrett.
00:19:30
Speaker
Right. I guess you can't, you really can't go wrong with the question. i think i have, I just get heated because I have an issue with how it's presented. Like i already mentioned, I feel like whenever you think about this, everybody is just so like, not dismissive of Yogi when it comes to bench, but it's always like, oh my God, Johnny best bench is like the definitive best catcher ever.
00:19:53
Speaker
You know, this and that XYZ. And call me a homer, but I'm a Yogi guy. i think that his numbers are there. And I guess I just prefer him maybe because he is a Yankee. But um I would pick Yogi.
00:20:06
Speaker
I'd pick Yogi too. Oh, yeah? I do. I think there's something about the fact that he was – like he's the only one who has the 10 championships. Yeah. So he had to have some kind of legitimate impact. you know Mantle wasn't there for all 10. DiMaggio wasn't there for all 10.
00:20:23
Speaker
Barrow was. And three MVPs as a catcher. Roy Campanella has that also, but Yogi had a much longer career. um But I think when you're a three-time MVP catcher and won 10 championships, I understand that baseball is not, you know,
00:20:39
Speaker
You could be, you don't have as much impact on a team in baseball as you would in maybe a basketball, but I think for catcher, it matters because just between the communication with the pitchers and being almost a leader on the field, so to speak, or one of the leaders on the field, I think it matters.
00:20:57
Speaker
So I have Yogi 1, I have Bench 2. I have them both. This is kind of weird, though. I have them both in my level 4 because I felt like it was so close to call that I almost didn't want to elevate them to level 5 for that reason. But maybe I should have them both in level 5. I don't know. Yeah, maybe you just put both in both in level 5.
00:21:14
Speaker
But there so I feel like there's a bit of a drop-off because then you have... like I have Pudge Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Gary Carter, all clear Hall of Famers, but i feel like the other two...
00:21:26
Speaker
clearly above. So maybe they are level 5 and then Pudge starts kind of level 3 and then it would go from there. that That's just kind of how the position is. what I feel like that's just kind of how the position is. You know what I mean? like yeah That's just kind of the way it is.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. I'll make him level five. right now That's fair. but again That's why I like talking about this stuff with you guys. You make me you make me on my toes. You make me think. So L1-1C number one. I'm adding Yogi Berra to our Hall of Famer spreadsheet here.
00:21:56
Speaker
We like this. For us. So that's our first Hall of Famer of the night. We're going to have at least one more. I think we'll have – I'm betting we'll have two more, but I'm kind of like we'll see if we have three.
00:22:08
Speaker
um We'll see where that goes. I don't want to spoil anything. So how do we want to do this for the Dodgers? Oh, also shout out umpire Bill McGowan. Forgot him. My bad. wo Woo. Eighth World Series.
00:22:22
Speaker
It's the seventh of eight. um I'm going to the returner Pee Wee Reese championship or bus hall of fame class of 1941. It's a second appearance. He went, it's his second loss in the world series as well.
00:22:36
Speaker
He went seven for 29 with a double and six walks and three strikeouts comes out to a three or four average and seven 96 OPS level one, number 14 shortstop between Joe Sewell and Alan Trammell.
00:22:50
Speaker
We've already done one before, boom but I've come around them. I'm starting to come around a little on Lou Whitaker. I'm sorry. What? Yeah, I am a little bit.
00:23:00
Speaker
Oh boy. Oh boy. I'm sorry to come around. Lou Whitaker. I'm not there yet. I didn't do it yet, no but um I think I'm like one really good case away from doing it.
00:23:12
Speaker
I'm liking this. What? Sure. um yeah He's a second baseman, Zachy. Redacted. Redacted. way getting there second He's a second baseman, Zachy.
00:23:23
Speaker
i I think, Zach, what it comes down to, and I'm going on a tangent, we can cut this out later, but i think I think there's room for both types. Like, we have the sabermetric nerds, and we have the ball watchers who know ball when they see it, and they look with their eyes.
00:23:39
Speaker
And I always felt like I was in the the latter category, but the more I'm i'm thinking, like, we We can have room for guys like Vladimir Guerrero and Tony Gwynn, and we can also have room for guys like Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker. It's not going to do much damage to the institution having all four plaques in there.
00:23:56
Speaker
Okay. I don't know. I'm getting there. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting there. um But anyway, let's get to the the the cases here. Should I start with Jackie or end with Jackie? I'll i'll frame it that way.
00:24:09
Speaker
um we can I feel like we can start with Jackie because it's probably an easier conversation, i would assume. i would hope. God. um What are you assuming?
00:24:22
Speaker
Nothing. All right. Well, let's have our formal vote and let's decide. Welcome Championship Robust, Jackie Robinson. ah In this series, he went 7-for-27 with two doubles and three runs batted in.
00:24:33
Speaker
I honestly don't really want to do a bio here because I feel I can't really do him justice when you consider everything. The stats don't make his career – he was very – Like, obviously, probably the most influential figure in the history of baseball. um But he did have amazing stats as well.
00:24:50
Speaker
So welcome to the pod. Elected on the first ballot with 77.5%. repeat, then, too. seventy seven point five percent the voters were dumb back then too um The 1949 MVP had two top five and four top 10 MVP finishes and had seven all-star teams between the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Kansas City Monarchs. He had one there. He finished with 64.1 war, 313 batting average, which came out to OPS plus Field, a hit total,
00:25:22
Speaker
one forty one home run seven sixty five runs batted in i know the the rate not the rate thats the career totals look low But I want you to keep in mind that his 162-game average war is 7.3 for his entire career.
00:25:36
Speaker
He averaged seven wins above replacement every season for his career, and he led the league in war four times, three of those with the Dodgers. He led the league stolen bases twice, batting average once and on base twice.
00:25:50
Speaker
He also led the league in home runs in one season with the Monarchs. Now, the season has a small sample size games-wise, ah so he led the league with four home runs, but he did lead the league. Is he a Hall of Famer, Zach? I'll turn it over to you.
00:26:02
Speaker
Absolutely. And obviously, he's so influential to the game. I just wanted to, I know Mike said he wasn't going to do a bio, just wanted to input a few things here. Shout out to Branch Rickey. This guy was so smart and just way ahead of his time.
00:26:15
Speaker
He saw Jackie playing for the Negro Leagues, you know, Kansas City Monarchs, and he handpicked him. He thought he'd be the guy to break the color barrier just because of his character and the way he handled things. And to practice for joining the majors, he actually had people like say slurs and offensive things at Jackie and stuff like that.
00:26:33
Speaker
Wait, not why I didn't know that. That's crazy. Yeah, I read that today um to see how you respond, which is just insane. wow He is a crazy athlete.
00:26:44
Speaker
He played four sports at UCLA. He grew up in California, born in Georgia originally. um But he is mostly, he was actually more known for football in his collegiate career than he was for baseball. He played halfback and quarterback for his three years on the UCLA Bruins. And he all he just dabbled in some random stuff. He led the the league in punt return yards at the time too.
00:27:05
Speaker
Can you imagine just Jackie Robinson returning a punt? That's sick. Unbelievable. He was pretty quick. One of the most athletic guys probably just all around. He played some basketball too.
00:27:16
Speaker
um He was drafted into World War II and honorably discharged because he refused to sit in the back of the bus. And he stole home 19 times. And before the pod, we were just chatting that he is actually one of the first African-American executives. He was a vice president of Chock Full Nuts, which I just found out about 30 minutes ago.
00:27:35
Speaker
I'm honored. Wow, look at me. Yeah. So there you go. and Just some random facts about Jackie. that that We couldn't do him justice here. ah So, Zach is a yes. Josh?
00:27:46
Speaker
Yes, obviously, Jackie Robbins is a Hall of Famer, not just for the player he was, and he was a pretty damn good player. Yeah, for the man he was, 100%. hundred percent Should be in a Hall Fame. Imagine getting 64 war in a 10-year career.
00:28:01
Speaker
That's yeahs impressive. One might say it's Craig Biggio levels. Okay. One would definitely not say that.
00:28:10
Speaker
Took Craig Biggio an extra 10 years to get to that level. So he'd have 120 war, we said, Alphod? Yeah, he'd have 120 war if he played 20 years like Craig Biggio did. Amazing.
00:28:20
Speaker
I can't wait for, what is it, oh for the 04 version of his year Hall of Famer where we get to formally discuss Craig Biggio. Oh, he's in.
00:28:30
Speaker
I can't wait. Not the championship robust Hall of Fame. I will kill you. i will kill you. Oh, man. Zach is dying on the hill at Craig Biggio. 3,000 hits. Abel Zaki. Go away.
00:28:41
Speaker
Go away. joe who Has more war than Jackie Robinson. don't Don't say it. Chase Utley. That's disgusting. And how many hits does Chase Utley have in a longer career, I assume?
00:28:54
Speaker
About 300. Yeah. to hear
00:29:00
Speaker
it. I agree. home runs in Robinson, too. But, not Go away. the Jackie Robinson. I'm not saying that. I'm definitely not saying that.
00:29:14
Speaker
But it should be in the Hall Fame. Let's just move on before I say something I shouldn't. Welcome to the Hall of Fame, Jackie. Class of 1947. Welcome the Hall of Fame, Jackie.
00:29:25
Speaker
I have him, and again, i feel the rating doesn't do him justice. I have him level five. I have him as the number three second baseman ever.
00:29:35
Speaker
Not surprising. Rodgers Hornsby first, Napa Lajoie too. I'm like, just if you look at their numbers, we didn't get to really talk about either one of them much. The Horde is way better. 358 hitter.
00:29:48
Speaker
Yeah. Napples drop career 338 hitter who led the league in hits four times, slugging four times and had five batting titles and has 3,243 hits. I mean, how do I not? Yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
But absolutely level five. um I did give him, I did try to give him a little bump in the ratings, obviously for his influence. um This is a guy that if, even if he wasn't a Hall of Fame level player, should be in the Hall of Fame just for being the guy who broke the color barrier.
00:30:19
Speaker
Yep. Like, I think that, I think he was a Hall of Famer the second he stepped on the field. Yeah. But he also happens to be a top player. And then he was a great player. Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker
And then you add on to that. So that's why I'd say I'd probably, if I was really ranking him as a pure baseball player, I'd probably have him at like five or six at second base.
00:30:41
Speaker
But I tried to grade on a curve a little bit knowing that.
Arky Vaughan: An Underrated Hall of Famer?
00:30:47
Speaker
These are going fun. I actually really look forward to these. i actually have a couple of stories on this next guy. Welcome to Championship of Us or Arky Vaughn. another really fun, often forgotten player of his time. And this is one of the reasons that Championship Bus was made, to talk about guys like this. So this was only World Series appearance. I want to take advantage of this. He went one for two with a double, um but he was elected by the Veterans Committee in 1985 and peaked at 29% on the writer's ballot. He finished third in MVP voting twice, but never finished above 15 after that.
00:31:20
Speaker
But this shows how the voting can sometimes be wrong, which is kind of why that Whitaker thing I was telling you about, Zach, I'm coming around on. Marky Vaughn the reason. So he finished 23rd in MVP voting in 1934, and he did not receive an MVP vote in 1936.
00:31:36
Speaker
But he led the NL in war both of those years. He ended up leading the league in war three years, walks three times, runs three times, on base three times, and OPS once. He has a career 318 average, 859 OPS, and 77.7 war.
00:31:52
Speaker
The career totals are a bit low, but he did take off his age 32, 33, and 34 seasons for a reason I'll discuss after we vote. I want you to vote just on the career, and then I'll give you the circumstance.
00:32:06
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer? Oh,
00:32:12
Speaker
I need a minute. I'm i'm looking. Sorry. I'm just trying to figure out how he did not win the 1935 MVP. This one is me, right a good question one is flying they dude Because I did that, like what Max Gore, where it became Hall of Fame probability, and I'm realizing like it was so dependent on like award finishes, and a guy like Arky Vaughn gets really screwed. he looks he lost the mvp He lost the MVP in a year that he had 9.7 war. Yes. The guy that won the MVP had 4.9 war. Vaughn led the league in walks, batting average, on base, slugging, OPS, OPS+. plus
00:32:51
Speaker
And he lost. Not only did he lose, he came in third. But to be fair, how many of those stats did they really care about in 1935? It was the triple crown stats.
00:33:04
Speaker
That's all they cared about. he had He had more home runs by a lot. Who won it? Gabby Hartnett won it. Hartnett had 13 home runs So Hartnett was a defensive mind. He was a very good catcher. We've talked about him before. Yes, we we talked about him in the year he won an MVP, actually, because he was in the World Series. Yeah, he did and we voted it for him to be in the Hall of Fame. I'm not saying i'm not taking away anything from Hartnett's season because he had a very good season.
00:33:32
Speaker
But ah I don't know who voted for this, but they should be fired. Well, they're all dead. Retrospectively. They're all very long dead. Well, good. They deserve it.
00:33:45
Speaker
I don't know in what world that you could look at this guy's stats and not be like, this is the MVP. And vote a guy who hit 40 points lower than him and 10 less home. What is this, Cal Rally against Aaron Judge? What are we doing I also want to point this out.
00:34:01
Speaker
He played 1,800 games and has almost 78 more. Holy cow. 1,800 games is not a lot of games. Oh, that's crazy. I didn't even think about that. 1,800 games.
00:34:14
Speaker
Career worth 162 of 6.9.
00:34:18
Speaker
Wow. He played slightly more games than Mike Trout.
00:34:25
Speaker
And a 77. Yeah. Now Trout has 94. I'm not comparing him to Trout. I'm saying his career sample size. He amassed 77.7 more in a Mike Trout career. you know I'm interested to hear after we vote on what this reason – I don't think it was military because you would have said that, right? Oh, I would have pointed out anything if it was remotely normal. I look forward to that. I don't want hear that, though.
00:34:47
Speaker
Because it's like at the back end of his career. like no. So, Josh, what was your vote? Did you vote yet? I didn't vote yet, but my vote's yes. Zach?
00:34:59
Speaker
I will go yes as well. Thank God, yes, he is. And I have him in level two. i have him as the number eight shortstop of all time. um I have him between...
00:35:10
Speaker
Robin Yount and Luke Appling, who we'll get to at some point. um So let's talk about Arky Vaughn a little bit. So first of all, kind of a little cool tidbit before I get to that. When Arky Vaughn got in the Hall of Fame, it was like 30 years after he died. So he got in in 1985. He passed away in 1952 at 40 years old.
00:35:27
Speaker
So when he got in the Hall of Fame, he actually got a congratulatory letter from Richard Nixon. What? Who was the president at the time. we no he I don't know if he was a president at time, but he got a letter from ah the i letter from Richard Nixon. um They played together in 1972 or a little earlier.
00:35:49
Speaker
He wrote a letter saying to his daughter saying, I was a substitute tackle on the Fullerton High School Championship 130-pound team, and remember, Archie is our star halfback. Fast, hard-nosed, and even then, a real professional. Wow. Sincerely, Richard Nixon.
00:36:03
Speaker
That's awesome. So a handwritten letter he sent to Patricia. So now um Nixon named Vaughn the starting shortstop on his all-time pre-World War II team, saying for sentimental reasons because of their high school connection.
00:36:21
Speaker
And he also said that most experts would include Arky on the team if they were just judging him based on his hitting ability. He was also featured in the Baseball 100 by Joe Puznanski at 61. Really, really good book. If you've never read it, strongly recommend it. But Puznanski called him the least known great major league baseball player.
00:36:43
Speaker
So he was also called by Puznanski quiet and modest and was not colorful in ways that could entertain sports writers. So this is the reason why he took his seasons off.
00:36:54
Speaker
Wait, Richard Dixon and Vaughn went to the same high school. Yes. That's so cool. Correct. wow Okay. Damn. So, Arky Vaughn got moved to shortstop in 1943 by Leo DeRocher, Hall of Fame manager, after Pee Wee Reese got drafted into World War II. And he had a solid season. and He hit.305 with 125 OPS+.
00:37:13
Speaker
He makes the all-star team and leads the league in stolen bases and runs. Leo DeRocher has an issue related with something to Bobo Newsome, who's a pitcher and catcher Bobby Bragan. He accused Newsome of being insubordinate.
00:37:28
Speaker
And DeRocher, the manager, made fake lies to the media that Newsom threw an illegal spitball after being specifically told not to. So now Billy Herman, who we voted on for the Hall of Fame in the past, reported that when Archie Vaughn read this news in the papers from Leo DeRocher about what he said about Newsom, he walks into the manager's office, took off his uniform, and threw it in his face.
00:37:55
Speaker
What? And then he retired after the season.
00:38:00
Speaker
DeRocher got suspended for something unrelated in 1947. He came back and and he was like a utility guy at that point. He played solid but didn't play every day.
00:38:11
Speaker
like he had like an over 300 average, I believe. But yeah know he ended up um you know just not playing every single day. ah But DeRocher had some sort of feud with Larry McPhail, who owned the Yankees at the time.
00:38:24
Speaker
And um they started accusing each other of shit and suggested that, you know, someone invited gamblers and got them involved. And he ended up getting suspended ah for, quote, association with known gamblers. It was Happy Chandler who actually suspended him.
00:38:40
Speaker
So wow he has a complicated legacy a bit because DeRocher sounds like a real standup guy. Well, he actually had a good side to him because if you you guys ever watch 42.
00:38:52
Speaker
Yeah, of course. Was it Christopher Maloney who played the manager? That's DeRocher's character. So he said, I don't care if the guy's yellow or black or he has stripes like an effing zebra. I'm the manager of this team and I say he plays.
00:39:07
Speaker
What's more, I say he can make us all rich. And if any of you cannot use the money, I will see that you're traded.
00:39:14
Speaker
So he backed up Jackie Robinson. yeah But threw Bobo Newsome under the bus and had issues with Larry McPhail and had associations with Gambler. So he a very complicated legacy for Leo DeRocher.
00:39:30
Speaker
And they wound up you know getting to this World Series without him. that's ah What a crazy story. Yeah. So he took three years off basically to not deal with DeRocher, I guess.
00:39:43
Speaker
And he backed up Bobo. But believe it or not, This is not the most interesting person to me that we are debating tonight.
00:39:53
Speaker
It wasn't much of a debate, but yeah. I know, that's true. yeah but so like He was more of a story time. This one's a legit debate. Welcome Championship Robust, Gil Hodges.
00:40:05
Speaker
I'm sure you've all heard this name before. ah Yes, obviously. Okay. Can't live in New York and not know who that is. The boys of summer. In this series, he only had one at bat and struck out, but he will appear many more in the future.
00:40:18
Speaker
This, again, is one of those cases that Issy a Hall of Famer was meant for. He had a very, very long, tumultuous Hall of Fame wait that finally ended 2022. He peaked at over 60% on the writer's ballot and for a very long time was the answer to a trivia question who had the highest percentage of votes that's still out of the Hall of Fame.
00:40:39
Speaker
There was actually a story with the Veterans Committee at one point, the year that Bobby Doerr got elected, who we've talked about in the past. Ted Williams was the chairman of the Veterans Committee and Roy Campanella at the time was very sick.
00:40:52
Speaker
He was supposed to be on the committee. He couldn't make it. He asked if he could call in his ballot. Ted Williams said no. And the belief is is that Gil Hodges fell short by one vote.
00:41:03
Speaker
And Bobby Doerr, I guess, made it in by one or two votes because the I guess the mindset was to get Bobby Doerr in, his teammate. So Gil Hodges would have been in the Hall of Fame many, many years earlier if Ted Williams allowed Roy Campanella to vote.
00:41:20
Speaker
With that being said, I'm very excited for this debate. As a player, he missed two very early years to military service, but he had a full 18-year career with the Dodgers and the Mets. He also managed the 1969 Miracle Mets team.
00:41:33
Speaker
He has three top 10 MVP finishes and made eight all-star teams, but he never led the league in any category and finished with a 43.8 war. Now, I understand war seems to be a little unkind to power-hitting first baseman, so just for the context of it. He had 273 for his career, 370 home runs, 1,274 runs batted
00:41:54
Speaker
Now, it doesn't sound like a lot today, but his 370 home runs at one point was the career record for any right-handed batter in National League history and was 10th in Major League history at the time of retirement.
00:42:07
Speaker
He also has a rare distinction of having his number retired by two different teams. Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:42:16
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:42:19
Speaker
Told you hard. Yeah. No. oh Okay. Why? That was fast. Do you remember how, I don't remember if it was this year last year, but we were talking about like new guys on the ballot and Edwin Encarnacion came up?
00:42:36
Speaker
boy Oh, Josh, don't do this. What? Don't do this. What? Is it comparable? Wait, no. Enlighten me. It is comparable. Wow. not it's We're comparing eras. It's a completely different era.
00:42:50
Speaker
I mean, yeah, you're comparing eras, but... i think he's more Lance Berkman, where it's a little more of a case. Typically, he's very close to Encarnacion.
00:43:03
Speaker
i mean, they are within ten at-bats of each other. they both fight first base. Hodges was a better fielder, which is probably why his war is a little higher.
00:43:15
Speaker
But Carnacion hit a couple more home runs. And we laughed at Carnacion out of the building. What did you say? We laughed at Carnacion off the floor. We did. So i actually did. I did. Out of here to saying, yes, Gil Hodges is all favor. So I'm going go with no.
00:43:37
Speaker
This is tough. think he should be revered in New York for the Man's Miracle Mets, obviously, but I do not think he's a Hall of Famer. Just to make things clear, you believe Phil Rizzuto is a Hall of Famer, but Gil Hodges
Gil Hodges' Hall of Fame Debate
00:43:47
Speaker
isn't. I'm just asking.
00:43:49
Speaker
Is that what I said? Yes, you did. Hold on You say should be in as a contributor. Pause. Oh, did I say as contributor? Well, that's a different story. Yeah. Okay, fine. That's different? Okay, fine.
00:44:00
Speaker
It is. I was about to make that case. I'm about Hodges as a player, and I'm pretty sure I said Rizzuto as a player it was not good enough. You did. You said i stand i his case.
00:44:11
Speaker
I stand by that. Okay. Rogers as a player is not good enough. Yeah. I was just about to say ah if there was a contributor role or something, I would put him in as a contributor because he's a baseball lifer kind of guy.
00:44:25
Speaker
i i don't think I can do it. I'm sorry. I would vote no. Okay. Um, Zach, you you we're we're kind of in sync on this one.
00:44:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah? So I don't have him in as a player on the pyramid. Okay. Now, in the Hall of Fame, they aren't supposed to tie in player and manager cases. And I'm going to tell you right now why that's a load of crap because guess what's going to happen on Monday when the Hockey Hall of Fame announces their results?
00:44:59
Speaker
i make yeah I don't even know who's up. i dont even know Yeah, who's up? I don't know. The only real newcomers are is Patrice Bergeron, Phil Kessel, and um whichever stall brother is coming up. Bergeron should absolutely be a whole first down. get that. But my point is that it means a lot of older guys that aren't in are going to have a real shot.
00:45:19
Speaker
And I'll bet you anything that Rod Brindamore is going to be one of the names announced. and Not necessarily because of him as a player. But he just won the cup. I mean, Brynne Moore should be in as a player anyway. I don't disagree with that. But I'm saying i guarantee you that this will magically be the year that that gets announced.
00:45:38
Speaker
Probably. Right? so yeah I only hate him because he's a whining little... ah Oh, I know. I don't disagree. and I don't mean to go on a super long hockey tangent. I'm just making the the cross comparison. can i can i Can I just say something about Gil Hodges real fast?
00:45:53
Speaker
Sure. um I just want to say, I dont wonder if this going to sway your vote, 1952 in the World Series, he played in all seven games. He had 21 at-bats.
00:46:06
Speaker
He had zero hits. I know. that that How do you do that? That has been a black scene on his resume for a long time. And I'm sure that that kept him out for a while.
00:46:17
Speaker
um So I'm actually in agreeance with you guys as a player. right um The same clause that you made for Phil Rizzuto that I didn't make, I make for Gil Hodges. okay Here's why.
00:46:33
Speaker
The reason why I didn't make the exception for Phil Rizzuto is because I feel like there ah announcing is a tough bridge to follow. I think guys like Vince Scully should have a plaque in Cooperstown.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if Phil Rizzuto had that nationwide status as an announcer to bump up his case enough. I think it's easier for me to to find that compromise with a player who was a manager.
00:47:00
Speaker
because you're still on the field, there's still some kind of stat to quantify how you did. So when you take a guy who was 10th all-time in home runs at one point in his career, and you add the fact that he took the pathetic 1960s New York Mets and made them a champion, and then died soon almost immediately after, like a couple years later.
00:47:22
Speaker
He died 1972. I think there's enough of a case there to be the guy who brought the Mets there. I think, honestly, the comp the comp here is taking another cross-sport comp for a second. Mike Brown is a coach with Carl Anthony Towns as a player. There you go. I don't know if either one of them are Hall of Famers on their own, but when you put that together, i find it hard to say no.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah. And it's borderline. I'm not saying it isn't. He made it by literally with just enough votes in 2022. He got 12 out of 16. um But I use the same clause as you guys did. So I put him in. What's kind of weird though is that he didn't – you'd think that he would have just jumped in after he passed away. And he did spike up to 57. But then he went down after that.
00:48:14
Speaker
So he went down to 51. He went back up to 60. So it was really just a big seesaw for this guy. um I also will admit the fact that I am extremely biased with Gil Hodges. He was my grandpa's favorite player.
00:48:25
Speaker
And um when I first started being like when I was Megan, like when I first started getting into the nerd poll of like second or third grade, when i started talking about the Hall of Fame, the first thing my grandpa said, how is Gil Hodge is not in the Hall of Fame? So I've been kind of ingrained with that my whole life. um When I removed the bias out, it is a very close case. And there are already so many Dodgers in that. I i don't think it was a travesty that he was out.
00:48:52
Speaker
But I can't lie to you and say I wasn't thrilled when he got in. And he got elected literally two months before my grandpa passed away. So he got to see it. So that was really, really cool.
00:49:04
Speaker
Like a moment for us. um So I can't in good conscience not say yes, but I get why it's close.
00:49:13
Speaker
Oh, I get it. So the ah you're making the case that the announcing for Rizzuto is not as impactful as a managerial, which I can respect that too because it's different for everybody.
00:49:24
Speaker
I think to be an announcer, you have to be like – a nationwide figure. And honestly, when I, I'm, I wanted to formally ask you guys permission on this and we can cut this out. My whole fame list. When I made it during COVID, I had a rule that once you were in, I can't take you out.
00:49:38
Speaker
Do I have permission to get rid of that rule? I, whatever you want, it's your list. dude I need somebody else to tell me. Yes. Yes. The consistency of the pod.
00:49:49
Speaker
I don't want to ruin the the vibe of it. Sure. who do you want to take out? are you taking out? I don't know, but I feel like the announcers... Is this just a blanket rule you want to change just because you need it later? no or This sounds really shady. It's really more than I than i keep the rule, than they're in.
00:50:08
Speaker
I think good announcers is one of the things I was looking at because like I realized after talking about Rizzuto that maybe I was a little inconsistent with putting in guys like um you know Vin Scully and guys like Ernie Harwell and guys – maybe that's just not something that I should – maybe I shouldn't have announcers in.
00:50:25
Speaker
So that was one. I've been thinking about quite a few things. Another one was like making up for some mistakes that I've recognized that I've screwed up. i Now that I went through the the Hall of Fame probability phase and learned a little more, I think maybe it should have been the other way around. I should have done that first and then done this, but I didn't think of it.
00:50:45
Speaker
So that was really where it came from. But it was really the announcers was one of the things I was thinking about. Yeah. But didn't mean to go on a tangent. So you guys are no's.
00:50:57
Speaker
I'm a yes as a contributor only. And overall, he's a no. So we induct three new players tonight.
MLB's Salary Cap and Revenue Sharing Proposals
00:51:04
Speaker
Congratulations to Yogi Berra, to Jackie Robinson, and to Arky Vaughn, the championship robust class of 1947. That was fun, boys.
00:51:13
Speaker
Now let's get to some boring labor negotiations, huh? Yay. yes um What do you want to start with? Do you i want to start with the proposed salary cap by the owners or the MLBPA's solution?
00:51:28
Speaker
I would start with the PA because theirs came out first. That's what was to say, came out first. Yeah. i liked Honestly, I really liked theirs. All right, here we go yeah Yeah, read it off. So this is all from passing a few weeks ago at this point. know we're a bit late on it. But the union is proposing quote, competitive integrity tax, a complement to the competitive balance tax that has penalized high-spending teams for most of the century. This would require teams not spending at least half the base threshold to forfeit a portion of their revenue, which is just awesome.
00:52:02
Speaker
Because it's all the small market teams that don't spend and to keep it all for profit. It's like, hey, buddy, you got to use that on payroll or else. Right. yeah Which is great. I think it's amazing. So how would it work, though? Keep going. Keep going through list. There's a lot yeah, yeah. No, I know. So the proposed CBT, it it starts at $300 million. That would mean payrolls of at least $150 million, um which is around $20 million dollars less than the league's proposed floor.
00:52:30
Speaker
So it's around the same area, and $150 million, you can field I guess you can field a pretty good team with that. I mean, I'm not too. I should have looked at payrolls, but I did not. And like the competitive bargaining tax, the integrity tax would have a surcharge threshold in increments of 10% from the base up.
00:52:47
Speaker
And this also, so the revenue sharing is a big thing, big thing too, through the local TV's are regional sports networks. So with every team contributing $50 million and then two-thirds of whatever remains going to a shared pool that would be distributed equally. So the MLBPA is proposing significant financial gains for younger players near doubling of the minimum salary to $1.5 million.
00:53:10
Speaker
with 10% annual raises, expansion of bonus pools, blah, blah, blah. And pre-arbitration money is also going up by over 100%. So that's great for everybody around.
00:53:22
Speaker
Basically, the the union is obviously ah opposed to a salary cap because they do not to they don't want to place limits on their potential future earnings, which makes sense. what do yeah So before we jump into the cap, because we know what a cap is and stuff, what do you think about the integrity tax?
00:53:41
Speaker
I like the idea in theory. of The problem is so it's based off revenue generated from TV or tickets. It's everything. It's shared revenue pool coming into that. Okay. So I don't, the only criticism that I have is I don't immediately see. And again, I'm going by what you're telling me. So I might be missing. I don't know like if there's something that I'm missing or maybe I just misheard, but I think you're still having a bit of a gap. the You're not fixing the gap.
00:54:09
Speaker
Between the big markets and the small markets. you're right. The owners. Because big markets are going to generate more revenue. You're right. No, the owners basically have to be okay with willing. They have to be okay splitting the TV money equally, which are I guess I see the problem there. Yeah, because they're all in hell. Yeah.
00:54:29
Speaker
I don't see how Steinbrenner is saying, yeah, Baltimore, you can have Yes Network money. i I love every bit of this, dude. I really do. i think it's a great idea. i also think flying ponies are a great idea. oh like It's a great way to circumvent a cap because you want teams to spend. Like, I get it. I get what they're trying to do I do too, but you're getting teams to spend, but at the same time, the Yankees are still going to be spending 30 times as much as the Rockies, and what are you really solving?
00:54:56
Speaker
At least the Rockies are, you know, quote-unquote, trying to field a competitive team.
00:55:02
Speaker
So the thing is, is like the they're trying to incentivize...
00:55:10
Speaker
By splitting more of the TV money, right? And less of the stadium revenue, you're trying to incentivize the teams to get butts in seats, right? And how do you get butts in seats? By signing good players. By signing good players and making a better team. So you're trying to incentivize the owners to put money into the team.
00:55:30
Speaker
Yeah. Right. You're going to get more of that money. And the stadium money, as everybody knows, it's a lot of money because you're getting the tickets and the concessions and the parking. And we all know that if I have to pay $40 for parking at Citi Field while i'm paying $4 for a ticket, you know, something ain't quite right there.
00:55:50
Speaker
I think we're not understanding. I like the intention of the idea. And I think there is some there is some merit to that. My struggle is where it's going to work in practice, number one, with with the gap between the teams as it is because the payroll is still going to be – the Yankees are still going be up here and the other teams are going down here.
00:56:07
Speaker
The other thing is that – not to sound pro-owner because I'm not by any means, but I do find it weird to tell the owner how to spend their money because – Some guys, like you're also setting up teams that are going to have the more impulsive spending owners since you're no longer giving them the safety net to not spend at all. And now instead of having players and a $400,000 payroll or an $800,000 payroll, you're going to have them with a $25 million dollars payroll signing guys like, I don't know, Jazz Chisholm to $200 million dollars deal.
00:56:42
Speaker
Yeah, but if you're going to have a salary cap and then with a salary floor, you're still telling the owners they have to spend the money. Yes. Yes, they have to spend the money, but then what they're going to do is they're going to spend money on something stupid, which is fine for the players. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying the fan aspect may not be as great as you think. Colorado spent money. They they gave Chris Bryant a nine-figure contract. How'd that work out?
00:57:04
Speaker
No, I get that, but that's not total payroll. don't what you're saying. Like if you give them more leeway to spend, if you're requiring them to spend, it doesn't mean they're goingnna spend it right. and I understand that that's going to help with the idea of maybe quote unquote effort, but it does not mean that it's going to fix any sort of um hierarchy for lack of a better term between the teams and, you know, the market level.
00:57:30
Speaker
see See, but that's the thing that's like, yeah, I'm not going to disagree that the owners are going to be stupid. Right. But i don't I don't understand, honestly, how the owners have given their proposal to the Players Association, have been like, yes, we want a cap and a floor, and then have half the league under the floor, and these guys are gonna and these guys are are for it?
00:57:51
Speaker
It doesn't make sense to me. Why weren't they spending that money before now if they're suddenly for it? why Why did a team like the Reds right say, oh, well, we're going to try to sign Kyle Schwarber, and here's, you know, whatever the number was. i don't remember off the top of my head. $30 million dollars a year, let's just say. Right, all right, right.
00:58:09
Speaker
And then as soon as Schwarber goes and signs with somebody else, they go, never mind. We're just not going to spend that money this year. Right. so What do you mean? What do you mean you're not going to spend that money this year?
00:58:20
Speaker
Can you allow me to take a second to put on my tinfoil hat? Sure. walk Please do. Do you think it's entirely possible that the owners decided, hey, we're going to have a lockout in a bit and we need to look better? So some of these yeah teams that were not spending money before – Pirates, Reds, we're going to just throw a little smoke screen out there that you guys might sign a player that you have absolutely zero chance of getting. And then you no skin off your backs, but now we look like we're trying for the players. So we can say in negotiations, hey, we have no issues. The Reds just tried to sign Schwarber. It's not our fault he didn't come.
00:59:00
Speaker
Hey, the Pirates tried to sign. No, I think you're giving them too much credit. I don't think they're smart enough. I think they absolutely are. they That sounds like they're playing 3D chess, and I think the owners are actually playing checkers.
00:59:12
Speaker
Do you believe that the owners... Against a handicapped child. Do you believe that the owners came together and said that they should not sign Trevor Bauer because it's a bad optic? I don't think they came together. or I think it was just an unwritten un unspoken thing. that Maybe we shouldn't do that. But actually, actually i don't think that's what happened. I think that Rob Manfred told the league, told the owners they're not allowed to sign him.
00:59:35
Speaker
Okay. According to Tremelow, that's true. So let's go prior to Rob Banford. So Barry Bonds led the league in all-base percentage in 2007 with 28 home runs in 126 games at the age of 42. You're telling me no one wanted to give him a chance?
00:59:54
Speaker
know. It's not Rob Banford. I understand that. That's why I don't think it's the commissioner. I think it's the owners because it's happened before. Well, I think the Bauer thing is is the commissioner. So they've had no problem coming together to to do stuff like this before. they're like, he, he, he, we're going to mess with the players, especially now negotiations coming up. I think that was, yeah habit he, he, he. I'm not going to nobody go sign Barry Bond. I think it's a lot less complicated than he, he, he. We're going to come up with this gigantic devious plan.
01:00:22
Speaker
Do you really you really believe then that the Pirates and the Reds and the Athletics just decided to start talking about spending money now? I don't buy that. You think the White Sox decided, yeah, we'll sign a Japanese player now?
01:00:38
Speaker
i get where you're going It's all a little coincidental. I don't know. I've been thinking about this for a while. It's like insider trading. It's a Merck deal. What's your deal? I don't know about that one. Yeah, right. They know that, yes, the A's have started spending money, but they're still nowhere. They're still not even close to the cap.
01:00:54
Speaker
And you've also seen some of shady stuff. The owners, I mean, look, they tried to, they tried to screw over Tarek Skubal. These guys have no problem trying to save some money. Yeah. pro's been home runn Then I, so I, I, I, like I said, I don't, I don't understand how they can propose floor and be like, Oh yeah, this going to be good for the competitive balance the game.
01:01:19
Speaker
Well, I will say, so I'll just read it out real fast. Their floor is $170 million um per year, which would require 12 teams, so almost half the league, to raise their spending, which I think is good.
01:01:32
Speaker
i don't that's a bad thing. um But there the cap is at to around $250, which would include eight teams to shed under that. And, I mean, the Dodgers are at $400-something, so I don't know how that would work.
01:01:44
Speaker
They'd to figure all that out. i yeah i'd like I would like to know the proposal for the teams that are currently over, what what they're expected to do. Yeah, I don't know. Is it is this like a – I can't imagine this is going to be a – Right, like a cold turkey year Next year, a cold turkey kind of thing.
01:01:59
Speaker
I agree. think we're going to have to have at least five years to know. Probably grandfired out and stuff like that. i think we said this on the pod. I think it's got to be like we'll make the agreement for 15 years from now.
01:02:11
Speaker
Yeah. And it won't affect any of us. It won't even affect most of the minor leaguers. Why should we care? Yeah. So i do think the the floor and the cap, I mean, both, obviously both proposals would and increase spending, which is great for everybody.
01:02:31
Speaker
And and the the owners have a 50-50 split of the TV money and the and the and the um ticket revenue and all that stuff where the the players, they didn't say how they would redistribute that.
01:02:42
Speaker
See,
01:02:45
Speaker
this is This is the point that I'd like to make. m The owners are solely focused on money. okay yeah A cap and a floor.
01:02:57
Speaker
Here it is. Deal with it. right right The player proposal, on the other hand, and I think it has to be this way, is focused on winning. okay All of these incentives and caveats, it's all about winning.
01:03:11
Speaker
Right? You're going to give teams more money for butts in seats. How do you get butts in seats? Winning. You're going give extra revenue sharing to the low-revenue clubs that qualify for playoffs and have winning records, right? You're going to give draft picks and other benefits for low-revenue clubs that are active in free agency and and and are active in trades.
01:03:35
Speaker
So they're they're trying to incentivize owners and GMs to make moves and try to build a better team. They're not just saying, we're just going to stop the other teams from spending and then make everybody spend the same amount of money.
01:03:47
Speaker
That doesn't incentivize anything.
01:03:51
Speaker
The other problem here, though, is that you said, Zach, that 12 teams would need to up their spending. Yes. So you're to need at least 23 owners to ratify anything. So you're going to need at least five of those to be like, yeah, we'll spend more.
01:04:05
Speaker
I mean, here, I can read the teams out to you. Give me one second. I have them. You have at least five to say that, yeah, we'll spend more. And then yeah some of the top teams, they go, okay, Wegeth will spend less. week We can go through A's. They're going to say no.
01:04:16
Speaker
Hey, I'm sure ah Steinbrenner would love this because instead of making $100 million dollars a year, he'll be making $400 million dollars a year because he doesn't have spend money on on on the team anymore.
01:04:27
Speaker
Right. So the 12 teams that would need to raise their payroll. A's, they would probably vote no. I would assume. Rockies, I don't know what they would have. have no idea.
01:04:39
Speaker
Probably no. Cardinals. Can you see the Cardinals voting no? I feel like they'd actually vote yes. Maybe. Guardians. Maybe. right They haven't spent money in ever. over Jose, J.R. I can't imagine they're... Jose has been on a discount his whole career. yeah White Sox. I mean, they're they're playing well. Who knows? They're starting to try to spend... mean, they are. I will say they're they're phasing out Jerry Reinsdorf and getting new i mean, they're not winning because they started to spend. They're winning because their rookies all came up at the same time and and hit.
01:05:08
Speaker
And new ownership. Reinsdorf going to be phased out. It has nothing to do with the amount of money they've spent. yeah Who knows? But maybe the new owners would be open to it. So that's three. Pirates, I would hope so because they have skeins and stuff, but you have no idea what Bob Nutter likes to do.
01:05:25
Speaker
out Twins, no, they're pathetic. Brewers, maybe yes. Maybe they vote yes. like the Brewers like to, they're always crafty and stuff. I don't know.
01:05:39
Speaker
Rays, I mean, Rays, imagine if the Rays had more money. Oh, my God, they'd be scary. But sometimes it's different because like it kind of, you know, I've noticed it with Stearns even. Like when you give a when you give the mouse more money, sometimes they don't know what to do with it. Yeah, that's a good point.
01:05:58
Speaker
So who knows? there I would say maybe. yeah but yeah that That is a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, we need a salary cap because the Dodgers are so good. The Mets suck. yeah They are terrible. They're almost as high as the Dodgers. right And that's my concern with that is you're going to have um teams that are going to do what the Mets do.
01:06:19
Speaker
Just because they're spending doesn't mean they're good. It doesn't mean people are going to show up. Right. So you're going to implement a salary floor and then tell teams, well, you have to spend this amount of money. So what are they going to do? They're going go give some mid-player giant contract just so they can hit the floor.
01:06:35
Speaker
Which is exactly what... It's hockey all the time. Which is not going to help. They go and they take somebody so a team doesn't want anymore, they can't afford to pay, just so they can hit the salary floor. A 38-year-old player making too much money.
MLB's Expansion and Pitch Clock Success
01:06:49
Speaker
But again, the player's proposal incentivizes winning. And it's just better for them. i love the minimum salary increase, the arbitration money they'd get. i think it's awesome. like that All that stuff is stuff that the normal fan like has no idea. And I think that's really cool that they're trying to implement that stuff.
01:07:07
Speaker
i just it's funny It's funny to me, related, unrelated, that they're having this debate about revenue sharing and caps and floors. And then in the same breath, Rob Manfred is going, oh, I'm going to retire in two or three years whatever he said.
01:07:25
Speaker
Let's add three more teams between now and then. And all the other other owners are going, oh, great. So we're going to add teams that are going to be exempt from any of the revenue sharing ah because they're brand new to the league and they need all the money they can get to get off the ground.
01:07:41
Speaker
Yeah. So they're just going to be raking in the money from a revenue sharing. We're not actually paying into it. Yeah, that's genius, guys. This is, I mean, this is why I don't like Manfred. Because he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
01:07:56
Speaker
Yeah. Where he' he'll do something smart, like pitch clocks, and then do something incredibly stupid five minutes later. I mean, pitch clock was a massive success. Yeah, I'll do something smart, like the pitch clock, and I'll do something stupid, like the Ghost Runner.
01:08:07
Speaker
ah Yeah, true, true. Yeah, yeah. i don't I don't get it. I mean, I get it. I guess a positive is that they are negotiating before you know the season's over. so there's that. Is that a positive or is that a, oh my God, this is going to be a problem?
01:08:23
Speaker
Probably both. and When Major League Baseball was running defense a year and a half before this happened, because they knew this was going to be a problem. Because negotiating does not necessarily mean they are in good faith. That's a good point. Definitely not in good faith. Yeah.
01:08:36
Speaker
Never mind. That's just me being an optimist, I guess, in this situation. I'm not an optimist. i've I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There will not be baseball. I think there will be baseball. think it'll be a shortened season. I don't think there will be baseball. The thing is, the last time they tried to propose a cap was 94. And we all know what happened then.
01:08:54
Speaker
Yeah. So we know the players. can't see the Players Association budging. Especially when you have guy like Max Scherzer out there saying, hey, we should have make sure pitchers always have to throw 100 pitches every time they start.
01:09:07
Speaker
Okay, buddy. Honestly, I think he's on the right track, but 100 is way too high. That's way, yeah, that's crazy. If you're starving if you listen if you're a I think you should have to throw like, yes, 70, 75. Sure. I actually don't disagree with that. Unless unless there's an injury.
01:09:23
Speaker
That's a different story. But you can't just go out there and and throw like absolute trash into it and throw 50 pitches and get pulled. I think you should have to yeah yeah keep going. yeah That'd be fun. Yeah, they keep going and clearly miserable. Yeah, like painter today.
01:09:38
Speaker
Painter. Trash. But hey, hey don't worry. ah Rob Manfred unjuiced the balls. Right. and now they're cro No, I'm serious. now The offense is is down a lot. Home runs are down a lot. Did you hear this?
01:09:52
Speaker
It's crazy that they hurt their reputation with the fans so badly.
MLB's Reputation and Milestone Achievements
01:09:57
Speaker
And then, you know, that you get Judge and Otani and and things are starting to come back and and people are starting to watch again.
01:10:04
Speaker
and then you're just going to go into another walkout. Yep. For no good reason. No, it is. All right. So you want to compete with with with football and and and basketball and hockey and then you're going to stupid crap like this and then wonder and then wonder why.
01:10:21
Speaker
yeah It's insane, dude. It really is. Can't do anything right. Yeah, that was that was the big thing I had. i know you brought up Scherzer. Mike was obviously, he 3,500 strikeouts. What did you say off pod? Do you think anybody can do that again? Is that the ah the question?
01:10:42
Speaker
moa For Scherzer, is anybody ever going to hit 3,500 Ks again? Yeah, so we can go through that. Let me pull up the active list. All right, so Scherzer hit 3,500. Chris Sale, years old, has think he'll hit I don't think he's getting No,
01:11:05
Speaker
garret cole twenty two seventy five and thirty five years old it looked like he was gonna get three thousand for a while now i'm not so sure that injury really yeah made it tough Hugh Darvish, 2075, no chance. Kevin Gossman, 2040, no chance. Sonny Gray, Aaron Nola, 1947-33. No, right? don't think. No.
01:11:22
Speaker
aaronnola nineteen forty seven and thirty three no i don't right i don't think no ah The next guy, under 35 years old from there, because i don't think it's worth going in. The guy is under 2000, over 35 years old.
01:11:34
Speaker
ah Robbie Ray, 1,834 years old. Luis Castillo, 1,558, 33 years old. Jose Barrios, 1,481, 32 years old. a triple A for being trash.
01:11:47
Speaker
Pretty much. yeah ah thought he was just pitching. Barrios? He was a bit few years ago. ah Michael Wacca, 1488, 34 years old. Blake Snell, 1445, 33 years old. Carlos Radon, 1443, 33 years old. My point is it's bleak, dude.
01:12:04
Speaker
Dude. i think um I think there are guys that have a chance, just none of the guys that you listed, and it's not to happen for 15 years. time You're going the Skeens and Scoobal route? I'm going the Skeens and Scoobal. I think those two guys have legitimate shots.
01:12:20
Speaker
Well, I don't know Scoble does because he's a little older, but I think Skeens could have a legitimate shot if he stays healthy for the majority of his career. So 11 guys have it. um Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Clemens, Carlton, Burt Blylevin, Seaver, Don Sutton, Verlander, Gaylord Perry, Walter Johnson, Max Scherzer. So two of these guys are active right now out of 11.
01:12:41
Speaker
um Let's take a look at Skeens, and we can try to project this out a little bit. So Skeens right now is 24 years old, and he has 485 strikeouts.
01:12:54
Speaker
um If we're just taking his first two years at face value, 216 and 170, if we average that out, we're looking at about 193. Let's say that he averages 200 strikeouts for the next 10 years. Okay?
01:13:08
Speaker
I think he'll average more than 200, though. All right, I'll up it. Let's say he averages 225 because that would be his career high right now because he had 216 last year in a full season.
01:13:19
Speaker
Let's say he averages 225 for 10 years. He'll be at 2250 plus 485 that he has right now. Let's add in maybe another 100 this year. He'll be at 2800 at age 34.
01:13:32
Speaker
Even that's hard. Wow. Yeah, and and he probably has your bit your highest your highest chance in my opinion. And he doesn't he hasn't had his Tommy John surgery yet that he will have. The question, I'm actually not so certain about that one.
01:13:47
Speaker
So the minimum... The question is is he he's going to have to have, like like a lot of those guys did where they go on a tear in their mid to late 20s where they strike out 280, 290 guys for like a four-season span if he wants to make it.
01:14:04
Speaker
that's what That's what it's going to take. Now I'll throw this out there. So the least amount of innings to get 3,500 done based on this, and i'm looking at it very quickly. i'm sure Nolan Ryan beat him to it. But right now, like just total career, Max Scherzer did it in 2985-ish. So you need 3,000 innings to really get this done.
01:14:24
Speaker
Is Paul Skeens realistically going to throw 3,000 innings in his career? I don't know. have no idea. Is it 400 right now? yeah don't know. Through three seasons? Can't say. Well, through three two and a half seasons.
01:14:36
Speaker
So even if we double... oh no I wouldn't even say two and a half. So even if we doubled both seasons that were kind of shortened when he came up late in this season it right now, he's at 600 innings.
01:14:51
Speaker
He needs five times that to hit 3,000. So you're looking at 15 years. Can he stay healthy and can he keep going? So you're looking at 15 years. Yeah.
01:15:02
Speaker
Wow.
01:15:05
Speaker
But you know what? Look at Scherzer's numbers when he came into the league.
01:15:11
Speaker
He wasn't striking him out the rate Skeens was. He didn't start hitting that rate until he was 27. Yeah, he was a late bloomer. He had 200 strikeout seasons in 27, then wound winning the Cy Young in 28. I'm sorry, in 2013 at 28 years old.
01:15:30
Speaker
um I guess, yeah, it's fair. I mean, but he also pitched to 41. Yes, this
Home Run Derby and All-Star Voting Controversies
01:15:36
Speaker
is true. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess you're saying Skeens can be bookended the other way, where he might have a little leeway toward the end.
01:15:43
Speaker
Yes. The other thing, though, is that when Scherzer started, these guys were throwing a lot more innings. Yeah, pitching ain't the same. This is true.
01:15:55
Speaker
Like, Scherzer led the league in innings in 2016 with 228.1. Skeens finished full season at 187. Yeah. That's big difference. It is.
01:16:04
Speaker
yeah that's a big difference
01:16:09
Speaker
You're talking 40 120 more batters.
01:16:16
Speaker
I mean, yeah. Definitely going to be hard. So i don't I don't know. I agree Skeens is probably the best shot. None of the guys that are like even closing in have any chance. Like Chris Sale, I think, will hit three.
01:16:29
Speaker
don't getting close to 35. For that, Aaron Judge is hurt. RIP. Where is Rib? Our r RIP three-time, three, back-to-back-to-back MVP. Three-peat, yeah. Rip three-peat.
01:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, rip the three-peat. Wonder who's going to it now. Right now it's looking like you're Don Alvarez. yeah Not Kyle Riley, that's for damn sure. Kyle Riley is ass. Say I told you it would be.
01:16:59
Speaker
No, but if you've seen the All-Star voting as they've come out so far, it is deplorable. I actually haven't seen this. Oh, it's bad. Yeah, it's really bad. It's actually terrible.
01:17:09
Speaker
How? There are just guys that are getting votes that are getting votes because their team is jamming. You know, fans are jamming the ballot box. I shouldn't have no business being, you know, there at all. Like first base, Vlad Guerrero is at first by a lot, and he doesn't he shouldn't even be on the list.
01:17:27
Speaker
Yes. like he's dead du Breaking news. Breaking baseball news seven minutes ago. The Home Run Derby is ditching the clock. Oh, God. OMB is reviving the out system. First round, you get 20 swings.
01:17:41
Speaker
Second third, you get 15 swings. Dude, I really want to go. I just wish it wasn't really $1,000. I like this, too. On your last pitch each round, you swing until you until you don't hit a home run. I like that. That's really awesome. God.
Podcast Wrap-Up with Humorous Shoutouts
01:17:55
Speaker
ah thank god Yeah, that's way better, dude. Now get rid of the distance bonuses. Yeah, I can't wait to watch on Netflix again this year. I'm sure it won't crash. Netflix, please sponsor us. Shout out Netflix.
01:18:11
Speaker
Shout out Netflix. We know you're watching. You're one of our 20. I know you are.
01:18:18
Speaker
Dude, I just really wish I could afford it. I wish it was for the average fan and not for freaking corporate exec. And that will wrap up the 1947 installment of Championship Robust. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time. Really sad the guys didn't vote in Gil Hodges. First, Zach doesn't vote for Carlos Delgado. Now he doesn't vote for Gil Hodges. He's really hates He's ruining everything. And he has a hatred for Mets first baseman. I don't know. All right. Catch you guys later.