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Episode 57 - The 1946 World Series- Slaughter's Mad Dash
22 Plays18 days ago
We breakdown Ted Williams only World Series appearance in which the St. Louis Cardinals beat the Red Sox in a hard fought 7 game series.
We remember John Sterling and Bobby Cox in the current events section, and also discuss if CC should really be on the Brewers wall of fame.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Context
00:00:02
Speaker
I want to do a quick disclaimer that this introduction is out of love and respect and admiration. As John Sterling once said, it is high, it is far, it is caught by the second baseman at the edge of the grass.
00:00:16
Speaker
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the 1946 episode of Championship or a Bust. I want to apologize up front in advance. We are recording this during game five of Canadian Sabres. That's why.
00:00:29
Speaker
absolutely Absolutely zero interest in recording right now. He did not realize we were going to be doing this. So if he's zoning out, Josh and will kind of try to pick up. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. So the first period. Yeah, I'm not doing very well, but that's okay. We want to applaud you for coming on tonight.
00:00:46
Speaker
Well, i'm I'm the one that scheduled this and then forgot that the game was, you know, so who's the real fan is the question. But you didn't flake out. So we respect that. We would have understood if you backed out. Well, it's okay.
00:00:58
Speaker
But we're going to talk about Cardinals-Red Sox. And Josh, you can get us started.
1946 World Series Overview
00:01:05
Speaker
So the 1946 World Series St. Louis Cardinals-Boston Red Sox. The Red Sox entered the series winning in the American League by 12 games with a record of 104-50. The Cardinals, however, ended the series the see the season tied with the Brooklyn Dodgers 96-58.
00:01:21
Speaker
So, for the first time ever, best-of-three tiebreaker series was played to decide who would win the pennant. ah However, all of these games and all of the stats were considered regular season, which is kind of weird.
00:01:36
Speaker
So some guys got their averages actually go up and their ERAs go down. That's better than the NBA where the stats don't count at all and the games just disappear completely. Yeah, right. That is significantly worse. It's not a it's not a regular season. It's just there. And then you can, it takes a while to find on basketball reference, even if you want to look back at the stats.
00:01:57
Speaker
That's wild. That is incredibly stupid. So they were better with the times back then. Yeah, well, there were. Yeah, I guess. So in this series, the Cardinals the easily won the first two games of the best of three. They won four to two and eight to four behind stellar pitching outings from Howie Pollitt and Murray Dixon on contributions pretty much up and down the lineup.
00:02:19
Speaker
Everybody hit. There was not no one guy that stood out. ah Almost half the team was heading over 300 this series. um ah So while the Cardinals were making history and winning this first tiebreaker, the Red Sox played an exhibition game against a team of American League All-Stars. But in this game, Ted Williams hurt his elbow.
00:02:39
Speaker
which would severely impact his play during the World Series. And the Red Sox manager petitioned the league to never do this ever again. Have the Tiger Series be one game so they wouldn't have such a huge layoff because of Williams' injury.
00:02:53
Speaker
True. um And I bet you the Carolina Hurricanes are thinking the exact same thing right now as they sit around waiting three weeks before before they play the Buffalo State. Yes, thank you, thank Horrible, horrible schedule making in the NHL.
00:03:07
Speaker
And the Knicks are thinking that as well. Yeah, just atrocious. Anyway, game one of the 1946 World Series in St. Louis. Saw all the Red Sox strike first in the top of the second inning when pitcher Hallie Pollitt singled in a run after a hit by pitch and a walk. The Cardinals would tie it in the sixth when Red Schoening— I hate this guy's name. It's awful. Schoen— Oh, we're going to have a lot of conversation about him. Schoen-Dinst. Yes? I think it's Schoen-Dinst. Schoen-Dinst?
00:03:35
Speaker
right, going to go with that one. Schoen-Dinst. and We'll fact check that later. He singled and scored on Stan Musial's double and then took the lead in the eighth when Whitey Kurowski singled with two outs and scored on Joe Garagiola's double.
00:03:48
Speaker
With two outs and a top of the ninth, the Red Sox would get an RBI single from Tom McBride to tie the game. This game would go into extras where Rudy York hit a solo home run in the top of 10th to give the Red Sox the lead. Earl Johnson would come in to finish the game for the Red Sox with the Red Sox taking game one by a score of 3-2.
00:04:04
Speaker
Game 2.
00:04:16
Speaker
would throw a complete game shutout for the cardinals to tie the series at one game three In Boston now, saw the Red Sox take an early lead in the bottom of the fifth, thanks to a three-run homer from ver New York. They had one more in the eighth for good measure on a botched ground ball. Dave Ferris threw a complete game shutout and a 4-0 win, with giving the Red Sox 2-1 series lead.
00:04:36
Speaker
Game four, so the Cardinals break out the bats in a big way. In the second, Enos Slaughter started the scoring with a solo shot. Whitey Karrowski doubled, then scored on a Harry Walker single. Walker moved up on an error and scored on a ground out, making it 3-0.
00:04:48
Speaker
In the third, Stan Musial knocked in two on a double and un scored on Joe Garagiola's single to make it 6-0. In the fourth, the Red Sox finally get on the board when Ted Williams singled and scored on Rudy York's double. Cardinals would get that right back in the fifth, with Slaughter and Karowski head back-to-back doubles. Garagiola's doubled in another run in the seventh to make it 8-1. The Red Sox pushed across two runs in the bottom of the eighth on Bobby Dewar's two-run home run.
00:05:12
Speaker
The Cardinals would score four runs at the top of the night just for good measure. Three straight singles scored a run before Marty Marion doubled in two more and an error added a fourth. Cardinals would win the game 12-4 and tie the series at two. This is the only game in World Series history where three players from the same team had four more hits. Slaughter, Karowski, and Garagiola.
00:05:32
Speaker
Really? Wow. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's actually crazy. Record that has not been broken. Wow. So game five with the series tied at two. So the Red Sox strike first in the bottom of the first on Ted Williams, RBI single Cardinals would tie back up in the top of a second on Harry Walker's RBI double after an error got a run around base.
00:05:53
Speaker
The Red Sox untied it in the bottom of the inning on Don Gutteridge's RBI single in the sixth. Leanne Culberson solo shot made it three to one for Boston. And in the seventh, after a double and intentional walk, Mickey Higgins hit an RBI double to make it four to one.
00:06:05
Speaker
Another intentional walk loaded the bases for a bad throw on a ground ball, allowing two more runs to score. The Cardinals tried to rally in the ninth down five. Harry Walker singled in two runs, but that's all they could get. The Red Sox taking game five, six to three, and taking a three or two series lead.
00:06:19
Speaker
Game six. Back in St. Louis, the Cardinals start scoring into bottom third. A two on and one out. Terry Moore hit a sack fly, scoring the first run of the game. If they're single, Whitey Kurowski and Enis Slaughter hit back-to-back RBI singles, making it three to nothing. In the top of the 7th, the Red Sox scored after Rudy York tripled and came home on a sack fly. In the bottom of the 8th, the Cardinals got an insurance run from Marty Marion's RBI double. Cardinals winning the game 4-1 and forcing a game 7.
00:06:44
Speaker
Game 7. The Red Sox strike in the top of the first on Dom DiMaggio's sack fly. In the bottom the second, the Cardinals tied it up when Randy Kurowski doubled, moved to third on a ground out, and scored on Harry Walker's sack fly. the bottom of the fifth, Walker singled and scored on Murray Dixon's double. Nixon then scored on a red show tonight. Mike, say it for me again. Shane Dean. What you just said. Single to make it 3-1. Josh, listen.
00:07:07
Speaker
Joe Sheen. Yeah. Deanst. Shane Deanst. Got it. Shane Deanst. Oh, Shane is a Deanst. Shane Deanst. Okay. Gotcha.
00:07:18
Speaker
He singled, making it 3-1. In the top of the eighth, Don DiMaggio doubled in two runs to tie the game three. Stop laughing. Tied the game at three. Don DiMaggio doubled in two runs to tie the game at three, but he pulled his hamstring. Oh.
00:07:34
Speaker
And he pulled out of the game a, quote, severe hamstring. ah pulled hamstring. In the bottom of the inning, with two outs, and he is Slaughter at first base, DiMaggio tried signaling to his center field defensive replacement, Leon Culberson, to get into left center field.
00:07:48
Speaker
But he was not paying attention. And Harry Walker immediately hit one into the left center field gap on a hit run. Culberson, who was way out of position, was super slow to get to the ball. When he finally got the ball into the shortstop, Slaughter rounded third base and he just kept going.
00:08:04
Speaker
It's not really known that Slaughter ignored a stop sign from a third base coach. And it's even more for debate if him running surprised the shortstop because he hesitated for a second for making a throw, then made it a late and bad throw to home plate, allowing Slaughter to score. This play being known as Slaughter's mad dash to give them the lead.
00:08:23
Speaker
And the Red Sox would end up coming up to bat in the ninth down one, get the first two runners on base, and then get the the tying run to third on a bunt. But a foul pop fly on the ground at the end of the game, ending the series with the Cardinals winning Game 7 and the World Series, thanks to the Mad Dash.
00:08:42
Speaker
Very nice. Love it.
00:08:46
Speaker
We are going to have a very fun debate on Red Shandians later on. Oh, boy. It's going to be tough. I look forward to this conversation. um Do you want me to start with him since we have him on the brain or do I go to him at the end since they won the World Series?
00:09:03
Speaker
any thoughts? Yeah, I don't mind switching up. Whatever you want. All right, we'll switch up. We'll go back. We'll start with the losing Red Sox. Yay. Manager Joe Cronin. He actually was the manager here, but he was elected to Hall of Fame as a player. He appeared in one as a player in 1933, and we covered him when he was a member of the Washington Nationals. They lost that series. How did we vote for him in that series? Well, I think you got to go back to the 1933 episode to find out.
00:09:31
Speaker
No, kidding. He was unanimous yes or yes. I can watch it anyway. Go back and listen to it anyway. Yeah, he was a unanimous yes from us, and he remains in the level one of the Hall of Fame as the number 12 shortstop of all time.
00:09:45
Speaker
ah We got two first-timers from the Red Sox here. We'll start with the easy one.
Legendary Players Spotlights
00:09:49
Speaker
Welcome Championship Robust, Ted Williams. Another one is done. This won't take long. Tell me when to stop. No, give it to me. i need to hear it all.
00:09:57
Speaker
Elector in the class in 1963 on the first ballot with 93.4% of the vote. A life for the Red Sox. A two-time MVP and a four-time MVP runner-up who led the league in wars six times, batting average six times, on base 12 times, slugging percentage nine times, OPS 10 times, home runs four times, runs batted in four times, walks eight times, and still to this day holds the all-time record in on base percentage.
00:10:20
Speaker
Take a listen to the stat line for me. 344. three forty slash line rather three forty four 482 on base. Yeah. 634 slugging 1.184 OPS. I think it was 1.114.
00:10:32
Speaker
op i sorry i think was one point one one four i I missed my math there. I apologize. home runs, runs batted in. and he did all of this while missing his ages seasons completely to military service.
00:10:50
Speaker
unheard oh We know where Zach stands here. but but a whopping war. war, yeah. He was voting at age and then retired.
00:11:06
Speaker
for um it's unbelievable nineteen sixty yeah one of the only dudes to get close to the four hundred you know batting four hundred for a year chase He's also second in OPS. He did. hit 406. Oh, six I'm dumb. Please ignore me.
00:11:22
Speaker
op was one point one one six one point one one six second all time Don't know where that number came from on my sheet. But um second all-time in slogging, second all-time OPS, 11th all-time in batting average. And when you compare the number of at-bats, Ted Williams had among the top 10 in batting average, he had the third most at-bats of them.
00:11:47
Speaker
A lot of these guys had like 3,000 at-bats. He had almost 10,000.
00:11:52
Speaker
And that's including the Negro League players. He was just that good for that long. Yeah. While missing three absolute prime years.
00:12:03
Speaker
i think And he lost a couple years to injury too, later on. Easy yes here? Well, the yeah, easy yes. ah Arguably a top five player of all time.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, but however, he sucked in the series. He went 5 for 25. As Josh mentioned, he was injured. He hurt his elbow. was hurt No extra base hits. So he stays behind Barry Bonds as the number two left fielder of all time. I yeah respect. You know, I respect it.
00:12:26
Speaker
I can respect that. But welcome championship robust, nonetheless. Great player. um And his head's still freezing somewhere, I believe. yeah Funny story for you. When I went to Cooperstown, they had his head... No, they didn't have his head. You know when you play the show, they have his batting, his quadrants, his nine quadrants, his average in each. Down the middle, dude, he was like 500. If you threw a fastball down the middle, one out of two times, he was going to freaking hit it. He's unbelievable. It was really cool to visualize that.
00:13:04
Speaker
He is amazing. It's just unbelievable. When you're standing at the all-century team celebration and you're pronounced the greatest hitter who ever lived, standing among all of those guys, and no one had a problem with it.
00:13:19
Speaker
No, it's it really is believable, right? like it's yeah It's not debatable. it says a lot. it's Yeah, I just kind of wish. Also, Sidon, did you know he lived until 2002? He saw the new millennia.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, he did. That's insane. He and Mickey both did, I believe. Wow. Mickey died in 1995, I think. But he came close. This man saw the Great Depression. He saw the Great Depression and lived in 2002. Yeah.
00:13:50
Speaker
It's unbelievable stuff.
00:13:54
Speaker
And he was, like, legitimately, like, in the war. Oh, he didn't get, like, a soft position? I don't believe so. Wow. I remember i think he was a pilot. Oh, my God. hot He drafted the military, Class 1A.
00:14:08
Speaker
um a friend of Ted thought that he should like see the advisor of the governor ah because they're basically arguing that he needs to ah have support – like he needs to support his mother financially. Oh, you're right.
00:14:21
Speaker
But he joined the Navy Reserve. Yeah. Naval Aviator, yeah. Oh, my god. And then Ruth met Ted Williams, the Babe Ruth met Ted Williams, and said, quote, Hiya, kid. You remind me a lot of myself. I love to hit. You're one of the most natural ballplayers I've ever seen, and if my record is broken, I hope you're the one to do it.
00:14:41
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Yeah, one of the best of all time. I mean, this is like the only time we get to talk about him, really. And September 2nd, 1945, his last job in the military, was he was in Pearl Harbor.
00:14:56
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:14:59
Speaker
So, yeah. I mean, he was playing baseball in Pearl Harbor, but still, he was in Pearl Harbor. What an unbelievable life. Look at Zach. Having a newfound respect. Rest. I hate you, my boy.
00:15:12
Speaker
What? Nothing? Nothing. I just said I hate Sharon, but go ahead. Oh, okay. Now we'll get to more borderline case. Bobby Doerr. Bobby Doerr was also one-and-done in the World Series. He lost this one like Ted, but he hit very well in this one though, unlike Ted. 9-for-22, one home run, one double, three runs batted in, hit.409 with 1.049 OPS.
00:15:33
Speaker
But is he a Hall of Famer? So let's discuss this. He was elected in the class in 1986 by a Veterans Committee, which I believe was actually co-chaired by Ted Williams and at the time.
00:15:45
Speaker
He peaked at 25% on the writer's ballot. He was a nine-time All-Star who finished top five in MVP voting one time and had a third-place finish in this season. This was the one time he finished top five in voting and top 10 twice, including that this this year.
00:16:01
Speaker
He led the league in slow game percentage once. I'll repeat that. Led the league in slugging percentage. And he finished with a 51.4 war, 2042 hits, 233 home runs, and a 293 career batting average while missing him a prime year to military service, to be fair to him.
00:16:20
Speaker
Josh, we'll start with you.
00:16:24
Speaker
ah You know, i don't know why you retired at 33, because you're still doing all right. Yeah. You retire young. Yeah. And I think it would have changed my answer if he had kept playing, but I'm going to go with no.
00:16:39
Speaker
You're going no? Wow, okay. Any particular reason why? Nothing jumps out at me, and I don't think the war is enough to save of it. So, he did retire due to chronic back issues. Does that change your mind at all?
00:16:53
Speaker
oh No, but that's certainly unfortunate. Okay, fair enough. Zach... Yeah, it's it's borderline for me, but I'm going to go no as well. At 2,000 hits, looks great. um He's just on the borderline of all those numbers. i but I would go no. Unfortunately, I would go no on this.
00:17:09
Speaker
a Okay. Before I give my answer, Josh, since you figured out that you retired at 33, I assume you're looking at his baseball reference page? I am. Okay, do me a big favor. You scroll down to similarity scores.
00:17:23
Speaker
I mean, I know where you're going with this. I pulled stats up immediately after, and I looked to compare. no a kill fiercely Mike is trying to trap me. no all but I know it's coming.
00:17:37
Speaker
Similar matters. Who's number one? Chase Utley. What? But Utley had more war than him.
00:17:50
Speaker
You know, I... of one Okay, but Josh, Utley had 200 hits less than him. 14 more. war And Utley has a lower batting average than him. 14 more. Josh, I'm not done.
00:18:03
Speaker
Who's the second most similar batter?
00:18:07
Speaker
Tony Lazeri. We have gone over and you we voted on him. And what did you vote? if you were I don't remember. Oh. You voted no on Tony Lazeri? You voted no and Zach and I actually voted yes. Got him. Because he only had a 47 war. That's even lower. So you like war. Just admit it.
00:18:26
Speaker
I like war when it boosts my narrative. You love war. You hate stats. Good night. Got it. But yeah. there's No, ki too what are you grilling me for?
00:18:39
Speaker
I'm just pointing out. No, I'm talking to Zach. No, no, no. i mean yeah How could you say that when you voted no? Because I voted no for Utley. End case. Boom. I mean, you're wrong, but all right. At least you're somewhat consistent.
00:18:53
Speaker
Utley has worse counting stats than Dor. um but We know how I feel about counting stats. Okay. thank Now, um here's the funny thing is that none of us are consistent.
00:19:06
Speaker
Uh-oh. Because I actually am a yes on Bobby Doerr. Michael. For the same reason Josh said no. What? Here's why.
00:19:17
Speaker
He retired at 33, right? He has the chronic back issues. He hit the 2,000 hit mark. He was a nine-time All-Star. I'm a big believer in that 10-time All-Star rule, right? If he does not have the back issues, he made the All-Star game in his last two seasons.
00:19:32
Speaker
I firmly believe that if he stayed another couple of years, he's an 11, 12-time All-Star, and we're not really having this conversation. Fair argument. Let me ask you a question. Or if he went if he wasn't in the military. You can't vote on on what could have been, though. You can't vote on stats that aren't there. That's fine. So how about this, Zach? Let me ask you a question, Mike.
00:19:51
Speaker
Hang on. Let me go back. I'll get to you. 1945. Yeah, he went to the military. He was sandwiched between a six war season and a five and a half war season, made the all star game in both seasons. Is it unreasonable to say that if he did not go fight in World War Two, that he would not have made a 10th all star game?
00:20:07
Speaker
No, you're not wrong. I understand what you're saying. So I get that. you know I kind of see that 10 also is magic number. I've been pretty consistent there. um And I think I can make a special exemption for world War II.
00:20:22
Speaker
That's where I'm at. It's going to bother you again then. would you I know you vote Utley just to piss off Josh and like pity vote and Would you actually vote for Utley? So it's funny. i And I think this is where Josh is going to go with this.
00:20:35
Speaker
Josh, what were going to say? I'll answer both together. I was going to say that if you're voting for Doerr, I think you would therefore then have to vote for David or Wright. oh Okay, that's fair. However, um i think the fact that, as creative sounds, the fact that Doerr hit the 2,000 hits matters.
00:20:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And Wright didn't right didn't really come close. He had 1,700. I'm hesitant on Posey because he didn't come close. I think you could also make the argument that Wright would have had 10 All-Star games had he not blown his back out.
00:21:05
Speaker
That's fine, but he had seven. Doerr had nine. And Doerr also... Yeah, but the Mets were doo-doo, and he would have absolutely been their all-star representative. Okay, so if David Wright stopped playing to go fight in Afghanistan, I'd be more inclined to agree.
00:21:20
Speaker
That's fair. I'm not saying it's perfect match. I'm also not... I think it's close enough. I have thought about that, and honestly, I did... Hold on. He's one of those guys, Bobby Doerr, where I put him on the list one day, and I started to kind of have second thoughts. Yeah.
00:21:33
Speaker
Because then it starts spiraling into, well, now I got to put this guy on here. Exactly, and it did, and that's how Scott Rowland ended up on the list, and I didn't want that either. But fair is fair. Once they're on, they can't go off. I stand by that rule. If I'm voting again today, starting a brand new list, I'm probably voting no on Bobby Doerr, but I'll stick to my guns of what I – I'll stick with my rule and my consistency. That's fair.
00:21:55
Speaker
so oh But I do agree with you on the on the right thing that it's it's close. It's a slippery slope. I just think Dora had two things going negatively for him, one being you a world war and the other being the back injury.
00:22:09
Speaker
So I'm willing to give a little leeway when you already got the 2,000 hits, whereas Wright had the better peak. but Did Wright ever finish top five MVP? Yes.
00:22:20
Speaker
Yes. How many? Let me check. I want to say three or four times. No, only one once. or he finished He had four top tens.
00:22:31
Speaker
I mean, top ten is big. ah Top five is different than top ten. Top five is much different than top ten. Yeah. I didn't know that. Sorry, I was just asking. interesting but But that's it's a fair question.
00:22:43
Speaker
um So to go back to you, Zach, with the Utley thing, um I think that Utley and Dor are very similar, and they actually, in a way, are kind of the polar opposites of each other.
00:22:54
Speaker
Because Dor retired at 33, and I don't think Utley started until 27. Oh, wow. So they are very, very similar. And as I've said to Josh before, I have been largely coming around on the idea of Utley. I'd love to say it. Oh, boy.
00:23:14
Speaker
i'm I'm not ready. I'm still not ready yet, but I'm not ready i'm not ready to to be the reason he's kept out, but I'm also not ready to emphatically say he's a yes. Yeah, I can't put him in yet. Sorry. I'm going to do it.
00:23:26
Speaker
I heard it yet. I heard it yet. were We're getting there. We're in progress. We got to work on the bigger priorities with Zach. We got to get him on Felix Hernandez. Felix, enke what's his name? ah Craig Kimbrell. Not yet. He's still playing. I got so hyped last night when i was at the Met game, and I thought Kimbrell was going to come out of the bullpen because he was warming up for like two minutes, and then they took him off the screen. Have you not seen him yet?
00:23:48
Speaker
I did with you. I was going to say. like i've seen him him i I saw him once with in philly I'm sure he blew the save. I'm kidding. No, they say got the save. They won.
00:23:59
Speaker
Did see Jansen last night though. he Now he. Listen, I mention this every time. I'll vote for him before I vote for Craig Kimbrell. But dude, the peak, Kimbrell's peak was nuts.
00:24:12
Speaker
Jansen's going to have what, 500 saves? he Yeah, he's pretty close to it. He's at I think 483. But yes, that was the Bobby Doerr debate. Anything else on Bobby Doerr, David Wright, and whatever tangent you want to say about that, by the way? I don't mean to give that a hard stop. No, that was fun. No, we're good. We're good.
00:24:30
Speaker
All right, winning Cardinals. I'll get through the returners quick so we can get to the currents, and then we'll do red Shane Deinst. So Stan Musial, fourth and final World Series, happy trail Stan, and it sort of showed. When he hit, it was productive, but he only hit.222. He went six for.27 with four doubles and a triple.
00:24:47
Speaker
So when he yeah it mattered when he got the hits. But um he's also the number two right fielder of all time behind Babe Ruth, so it's kind of fitting that um Stan and Ted are both number two at their outfield positions. Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
In a slaughter, second ring in his many appearances. Hit very well. 320 batting, 993 OPS. 8 for 25 with a home run, a triple, and a double. So he had a series cycle, if you want to look at it that way.
00:25:12
Speaker
And four walks. He's still level 2, number 15 in right. And welcome Championship Robust, who's had a very warm welcome already. um I'll try to pronounce it the way Josh did. ah Red Sheehan Dines.
00:25:25
Speaker
All right. All right. All right. and needs This is a fun one. one I might be butchering it too. So I'm only just, I looked it up. Okay. Yeah. This is a fun one.
00:25:37
Speaker
He was elected to the hall of fame in 1989 the veterans after peaking on the veterans ballot. He's considered a very elite defensive second baseman who originally came up as a left fielder because he was a shortstop in the minors, but they already had Marty Marion, who we've discussed a few times, isn't in the Hall of Fame, but an MVP guy. So they didn't move him. They put him at second instead. He has a 10-time All-Star and a legit 10-time All-Star. No double All-Star games in one season garbage that I can't stand.
00:26:10
Speaker
um He had four top 10 MVP finishes. he finished third, fourth, and two tens. He was considering many to be a very strong defensive player, um but career totals are a little lacking, so to speak. A 44.8 war, 24.49 hits, and a 289 batting average, which was good, but remember the time we're talking about here.
00:26:31
Speaker
um To be completely fair, his OPS plus is 94. But the case doesn't end there with Red. He had the second longest managerial tenure in Cardinals history behind Tony La Russa. They won the World Series in 1967, made the World Series in 1968.
00:26:47
Speaker
At the time of his death, he was still um coaching, managing. i think he was coaching. But he wore a major league uniform for 74 consecutive years and died on the field.
00:26:58
Speaker
Wow. 67 years with the Cardinals.
00:27:03
Speaker
What do we think? Oh boy. It's a real test of the 10 time all-star thing, huh? It is because, like you mentioned, the counting stats, they're borderline. like twenty Almost 2,500 hits is great.
00:27:17
Speaker
He's almost at a 300 average. But, I mean, the home runs are not great. But, the you know, if there was an opportunity to put him in as a contributor or something like that, I think I would. i mean, obviously, this guy is a Cardinal all-timer.
00:27:32
Speaker
i think i think it's I think it's a reluctant no for me, unfortunately. Fair. Fair. This one is as borderlines again, so i don't I'm not going to roast either one of you for Red or Bobby Doerr opinions. They are straight. They are both very hard.
00:27:48
Speaker
So don't feel like, you know, I'm not going to call either one of you an idiot for saying no. it's love the counting status. And the you mentioned the OPS is 94. The OPS plus is 94. Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah. yeah i Unfortunately, I would have to go no. it's It's a reluctant no, but all-timer for sure.
00:28:09
Speaker
Josh?
00:28:14
Speaker
No. Any particular reason why? i don't think him as a player was good enough. And I think he absolutely deserves a place in the Cardinals Hall Fame.
00:28:28
Speaker
But I also don't know if him as a manager is good enough either. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so just to be clear, because I'm adding you guys to the spreadsheet right now. We're all yes on Ted, obviously.
00:28:40
Speaker
You were both no's on door? Correct. Okay, I'm adding that. I added my yes. But Josh votes for Utley. Just write that down too. Yep, so Josh is no for Utley. Got it.
00:28:51
Speaker
not blind Anyway, um so Josh no, Zach no. um I'm very consistent. 10-time All-Star for... i't Yeah, I can't hate you for it. You're All-Star for 10 years. i don't hate you for it.
00:29:07
Speaker
You're a Hall of Famer. And when you add in the circumstances of the fact... i I think it would be more a contributor thing, and that would be kind of my loophole, because on the fee as a player, are you a Hall Famer? Probably not.
00:29:19
Speaker
but your contributor loophole would be a way to kind of get me over there. yeah and they have had a precedent of doing that. Like Gil Hodges didn't get in for 50 years, but gets in. And it's not just the fact that, you know, he, and it's on his plaque. It's not just the fact that he had 370 home runs. with Was he of Famer as a player? Probably not. He had OPS plus at 94.
00:29:39
Speaker
Right. But you got to remember the time he had one, he had one season of a war over six. Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that, you got remember what was asked of the players who were in the middle infield at the time. None of those guys were hitting with an OPS plus of 100. We're talking about guys like Joe Tinker in Chicago had an OPS plus of 80.
00:29:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, this is why like the Luis Aparicio of the world are Hall of Famers, and it makes no sense. He's another one, and that's why, honestly, it does, when you look at those guys, it is a bit inconsistent when a guy like Luis Aparicio, 13-time All-Star, 9-time Gold Glover, is in the Hall of Fame.
00:30:17
Speaker
And I understand the off-the-field stuff, but it's inconsistent when Omar Vizquel is not.
00:30:24
Speaker
da Because the off-field stuff. Yeah, we know why. It's not like a... Would he... but Well, we've all been kind of nos, right? Sure. Would you vote yes on Omar if the off-field stuff wasn't a thing? See, I still don't know if I would just because... I don't know if I would either.
00:30:44
Speaker
ah Sure, 10 gold gloves is whatever. 12 gold gloves is great. But... got to be a, like, someone. I'm pretty sure i also said no. Yeah. Yeah, you did. But, like, guys like Luis Aparicio, Joshua, was a great comp because those guys, that's what was expected of you at the time.
00:31:01
Speaker
With Omar, there was more of an expectation of, like, okay, you're playing alongside Ripken and Jeter and A-Rod and Omar Garcia-Para and Miguel Tata. You're supposed to hit the ball. But guys like Shane Deinst and guys like Aparicio really didn't have that same expectation. So i I feel like it's kind of hard to uphold that standard for them when that wasn't what their option was. You know, yeah I will give Aparicio his props that the guy at least went out there and led the league in stolen bases, right? Yeah. Who's doing something other than just playing defense?
00:31:36
Speaker
I don't think Shane Deinst was doing enough.
00:31:40
Speaker
Outside of that. Would you consider him as a contributor? Even though I understand that's vague. ah ah Let me put it this way. i don't know. i I would not put him in as a manager, so to say. Right.
00:31:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I could get around. i guess I could get behind that. Because I think there's got – I'll mark you both as no just for the sake of the the spreadsheet. I'm just asking in a hypothetical sense because that's what saying with Hodges, and I know we branched off. But Hodges was not really – he's elected as a player, but the fact that he managed the 1969 Mets and died young I think helped.
00:32:17
Speaker
This is um kind of like a Mattingly thing too, right, at this point. That's another one that I think should have that, but it also took Hodges until 2022. Yeah, the believe, to get in My grandpa was so was always so annoyed that Gil Hodges never got in the Hall of Fame.
00:32:39
Speaker
He went to the hospital and he wound up never coming home. The day he went to the hospital, or the day after he went the hospital, Gil Hodges got elected. So he didn't live to see the induction, but he lived to hear he got elected. So that was kind of cool that he got to know that he got in because he would he would scream about that on the rooftops about Gil Hodges. But yeah, Louis Aparicio, though, led the League of Stolen Bases his first nine years every year.
00:33:05
Speaker
Sheesh. So he had the gold gloves. He had the all-stars and he had the gold gloves. Some of them were dubious because they were double year all-stars, which again are stupid, but can't do anything about that now.
00:33:18
Speaker
But that is all the, is he a hall of famers? So I, like I said, i advertise it as tough and I think they were definitely, definitely was.
00:33:29
Speaker
ah All right. Well, look, when Utley comes around next year, Sean's going to be pleading for my vote. And I'm going to bring up Bobby Doerr. And then we're going to put it right back to Bobby Doerr. I don't want to waste my time with that.
00:33:42
Speaker
Oh, okay. I know I can't change your mind. You know. People will lobby me instead. Yeah, watch out, Mike. Watch out. Bill White, military veterans, relievers, chase Utley. Who's working?
00:33:58
Speaker
Anyway. There was one thing on that list, wasn't there? um I can't remember what it was. Guys who play the game the right way? No, that's what he likes. No, he likes steroid users.
00:34:10
Speaker
And I like singles hitters. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Well, we knew that.
00:34:17
Speaker
There was something else on that list. I don't know. Bill White relievers military veterans Chase Utley and something else. There was. There was something else on the list. I recommend forgot what it is now.
00:34:27
Speaker
ah yeah yeah Oh, well. Too bad. If it comes to you, and just jump in later.
Baseball Legends and Managers
00:34:31
Speaker
um Before we get you know goofy out here, i just wanted to – it's been a while since we recorded, um and a lot of things have you know transpired. First off, wanted to say rest and peace to a Yankees broadcasting legend, John Sterling.
00:34:48
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, he has a record 5,060 consecutive games called um for the Yankees. And the only reason he missed a game was because his brother passed away and he had to go to the funeral.
00:35:01
Speaker
um He called eight World Series, including five World Series wins for the Yankees. And before that, people forget, too. He called a lot of Atlanta Braves games. He's called some Baltimore Bullets games, Mike. Can you believe that?
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah. It's crazy. He called some Islander games. And um he was one of the first guys that did the Islander games when they first came into the league. Yeah. um And even some Yale football games because Yes had a contract with Yale at the time.
00:35:30
Speaker
And you can look back. He he called a few Yale home football games. um Just an amazing personality. Very quirky dude. i I tried to, you know, obviously I looked him up before this. He never won the Ford Frick Award.
00:35:45
Speaker
to Yeah, he was nominated. Like why? How did he not win once? I think he's the guy... and Because of losers like Joe Buckwin. Yeah. They like Sniffs for the most part. I mean, I think Hulk Harrelson won, but that's like one of the few exceptions.
00:36:03
Speaker
They don't like guys who are like the Homer types, I feel like. He's not even that. But I know, but like you guys who get overly enthusiastic about their team, i feel like they tend to steer away from that a little bit. They like the plain men. Like straight-laced. yeah Yeah. Like a Gary Cohen.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah. mold oh Like a guy that has no personality. like Well, he took the shot for me, but yes. Yeah. I hate Joe Buck. I think he's terrible. Yeah, he's fine. I mean, he's okay at football, but at baseball, it's awful, and it's atrocious. for me a little bit I don't like it.
00:36:36
Speaker
He's too boring. he doesn't he he doesn't His stories aren't good enough. I think we just got Pavlov enough into thinking like, oh, when Joe Buck is calling a game, the game matters.
00:36:48
Speaker
yeah Not necessarily that Joe Buck is any good. it's just now you hear his voice because he's done so many big games that it feels like, sorry, Zach, that it feels like um it matters.
00:37:01
Speaker
No, you're right. Same goes for Al Michaels, who I think used to be great. Oh, yeah, but I mean, in the past five years, Al Michaels, he he needed to retire. He needs to go. out But I don't blame these guys. And Sterling essentially died in the booth. Once we heard him stepping down, we kind of knew it wasn't good, right? Like, that's kind of the cue. When an announcer's retiring, they're they're probably gone within a year.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yeah, no it it really is unfortunate. he he was He really was one of a kind. He was very... i don't think I realized how lucky we were as Yankee fans have somebody like as eccentric as him. when you When you were just mentioning a lot of the guys are really straight-laced and just you know make the call and don't have fun, goofy home run calls and stuff.
00:37:43
Speaker
um I just wanted to... i don't want to put you on the spot, but like any favorite home run calls that come to mind? Robbie Canoes is one of my favorites. Don't you know? like that one. no Thrilla by Godzilla. Yes.
00:37:54
Speaker
ah DD Gregorius, May Shanky fans euphorious.
00:37:59
Speaker
Burn baby burn. I think that's the original. yeah yeah i love Burn baby burn. yeah Oh, I mean, it's a Garty party, baby. Garty party is a great one. As much as I hate Brett Gardner.
00:38:14
Speaker
Wow. We played the game the right way. What about...
00:38:22
Speaker
What about the Milkmen Delivers? Oh, good. Yeah, remember when he was supposed be the next big thing? Yeah. Yeah, Robbie Cano is my favorite. I mean, El Capitan is obviously you know great with Jeter and stuff, but... a bob and mayrod I think my number one has to be D.D.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah. The Grandy Man. Dude, the Grandy Man can. That good one, yeah. Positively Swishalicious. Ooh. Dior Shella is one happy fella. Yeah.
00:38:51
Speaker
Yes. So it's funny, like the people who work for the Yankees, I think it was Emmanuel Barbari and a couple of the guys were saying that that was one of their favorites because it so fit Gio's personality in the lot in the clubhouse.
00:39:05
Speaker
Like he was the happy guy. So when he said that, like you were like, yeah, that's actually so perfect. yeah And it's something that you may not think of like as a fan, but the the insiders like that one.
00:39:16
Speaker
That's cool. Happy Easter, Gio. That was awesome. I remember that one. I mean, to share it with the text message was okay. Oh, yeah, goaded, goaded. I think there were some – when you're doing stuff like that, you never you're going to hit every time.
00:39:31
Speaker
But looking back, like I used to have a love-hate relationship with John Sterling. Me too. But the older I got, the more nostalgia it felt. Yeah, it's just, it's one of those things where, i don't know, I have a personal connection with it because I used to go, my dad had, you know, he had season tickets for five years and we listened to the post game on the way back. So you'd I'd always hear all the calls and I saw it in the game. So, you know, it like really sink in with me. Yeah. And then even just in the car with him on the way to do anything, we'd always, my dad would have this traditional, you know, we'll stay and listen to the inning, you know, so you listen to you. I would listen to John and you'd finish the inning and then you'd go inside. I don't know if other people do that, but like I grew up doing that.
00:40:16
Speaker
That's kind of cool, actually. I appreciated it a lot. i mean I mean, here I am. I still appreciate Michael Kay a ton, too. But I mean, i don't know how you guys feel about Kay. He's another one I have love-hate relationship with. I think part of it is, like you know when... And even like...
00:40:33
Speaker
Think about it like senior year high school, right? We were all just ready to kill each other. Yeah. Yeah. When you spend too much time with people, you tend to find more faults than you find the positives. And I think I felt that way with Sterling, and I sometimes feel that way with Kay. I like Kay, but Kay is such a huge homer. He's turning it recently. You got to take it. ah You got to take anything he says with a grain of salt. Yeah.
00:40:56
Speaker
But I think that's part of it, though. I think as an announcer, he's overall very good. I think sometimes his big calls are a little pre-rehearsed sometimes. Yeah, like definitely.
00:41:07
Speaker
That Jeter where fantasy meets reality, did you have any doubt? It felt rehearsed. Yes. Agreed, agreed.
00:41:18
Speaker
um Another one, too. Rest in peace, Bobby Cox, man. Yeah. This was crazy. i like He has four NL pennants. Unfortunately, only one World Series, but he was in a you know obviously he was in a ton with those Braves teams. He managed them um from like the, want to say it was almost 20 years, but um I got to look that up, sorry. But he was great.
00:41:46
Speaker
And just rest in peace to a legend as well. His number will be retired for Atlanta. I want you guys to think about this for second Bobby Cox. Yeah. You know Earl Weaver, right? Known one for being a complete hothead. We'll get to him eventually.
00:41:59
Speaker
um He has a lot of angry rants to umpires, said horrible stuff. He had 97 career rejections. John McGraw, who we've talked about before on this pod, who is a known hothead. 121 ejections.
00:42:12
Speaker
Bobby Cox got ejected 162 times. I never knew that. You could have. Wow. He was ejected. has the all-time record for ejections. He's one of three managers ever to hit the 100 ejection milestone. The other two guys we've talked about on this pod.
00:42:27
Speaker
That's unbelievable, actually. As people World Series, whether as players or managers at the time. But DeRoche was a player, McGraw as a manager, and no one's gotten close. I mean, Earl Weaver 97. La Russa had 91.
00:42:40
Speaker
Considering where we are with ABS and challenges, we're never going to see that record ever broken. yeah That's like a Cy Young record. Unbelievable. He was ejected enough for a full season.
00:42:52
Speaker
That's... 162. one sixty two It's crazy. 14 division titles. Can you imagine? have to only manage to stick around long enough to hit that number of ejections.
00:43:05
Speaker
We'll put this way. the The two highest ejection active managers are Terry Francona with 54. Yeah, he's been around forever. Guess who's second? Aaron Boone. Aaron Boone, 47. Yep.
00:43:16
Speaker
28th all time. So you're looking, he needs another almost 120 to catch Cox. It's never happening. He's got 47. bet you 46 of those are arguing balls and strikes on Judge.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yep. For real. Can you just imagine, boys, 14 division titles? 14 in a row, right? Yes, yeah, yeah, consecutive.
00:43:37
Speaker
Oh, my God. and Unbelievable. We got the big three pitchers, Andrew and Chipper. Greatness. Love that song. Love that song. Look at you, Zach, like in Morgan Wallen. The one country song I like but because it has his history tied to it. Yeah, it's just he's had a career for the ages.
00:43:58
Speaker
All-time brave. um Yeah, rest in peace. Sorry, that was two big passings in the world of baseball. Yeah, it's been a tough month for sports general. It has been a while since we recorded, honestly. And sticking that theme, lot of managers are gone.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah. I've run through some. So Alex Cora, whoa. That was a shock. Crazy, right? Like, I thought he had more in him. And i the Red Sox and my red so fans in my life, regretfully, I have Red Sox fans life. How's Mike doing? Yeah.
00:44:38
Speaker
He was thrilled. What? Yeah. He he's he hasn't liked Cora. He didn't like Cora when they won the World Series. Really? He said he held them back. he And I guess Henry finally said he was right.
00:44:51
Speaker
Wow. he was he was I actually texted him the second the news happened. i said, congratulations. I didn't even have to say what it was. He's like, I'm so happy right now. Oh, my God. Yeah. But the one thing that bothered me with that firing, and I know we're getting to the others, did they really have to fire Jason Veritek in that fake phone position of game planning coordinator? What the hell is that? That guy's an all-timer for the Red Sox. so you can keep him on staff.
00:45:13
Speaker
Like, that's just like saying, okay, we're going to fire the CEO and kill a puppy. like What we doing? No, I agree. I don't think Veritex should have been fired. Cora was a shock to me.
00:45:26
Speaker
Chad Tracy takes over. But, I mean, the Red Sox are just trash. i was I was very wrong with my um i season prediction for that one. So, you can you can yell at me. I mean, listen, there's there's still time.
00:45:40
Speaker
Want to talk about my other – how about the Braves? Remember when I said first place Braves though and you guys were like – I couldn't believe it. I still can't believe it. I think what I didn't account for was that Chris Sale was going to be Chris Sale. I didn't think they had it they had enough in a lineup to do anything like that. Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker
um what's his what's his name? Rob Thompson gone, replaced by our old faithful Don Mattingly and the Phillies went on a 9-2 run.
Team Management Changes and Strategies
00:46:05
Speaker
You have to get the jersey to get fired though.
00:46:08
Speaker
Thompson? Well, alright. here's the feeling Here's the thing about Thompson. i don't I wanted to have this conversation with you guys because I don't think that personally when the Mets went ohn thirteen I thought they had to fire Mendoza, but I don't think and Mendoza deserved it.
00:46:26
Speaker
He deserved it. I think Stearns deserves to go because clearly his team construction is garbage. Stearns is apparently the worst GM that has ever GMed. If you heard some of the stories going out about him. i Yeah, so I've been told.
00:46:39
Speaker
let Did you hear that story that that Jonathan LeCroy said? Yes, I saw that. he He basically said that ah they saw they they brought him into into the office, they told him that they were looking to trade him, and then like it broke on social media that he got traded to some team that he had on his no-trade clause.
00:46:58
Speaker
Because Stearns thought that if he leaked it to the media, yeah pressure he could pressure him into accepting it to a team he what he that he wouldn't accept it to. yup And Lucroy held firm and said, I'm not going there.
00:47:10
Speaker
So he looked like the bad guy. Yeah. I have a theory on this that we can get to later on. Yeah. In particular, when we talk Mets more... Well, we can hear my initial...
00:47:22
Speaker
My initial reaction to like the whole Mendoza thing was that Stearns deserves to go, but they're going to fire Mendoza to save face. And they ended up sticking with Mendoza, which i actually give them credit for. But then on the flip side in Philly, I think Dombrowski clearly messed, like, screwed this team over.
00:47:40
Speaker
It's all old guys. They're all overpaid. But meanwhile, Thompson's going, and nobody's hitting, and that's not Thompson's fault. But, I mean, of course, Mattingly comes in and they do great. But it's kind of a similar situation where, hey, you know, we're going to fire the manager and the Mets didn't. But I don't know. what I don't know. The Yankees go through that swoon every year where they go, we're not hitting, fire the hitting coach and then nothing changes.
00:48:01
Speaker
Right. yeah I think it's it's like a philosophy thing that usually see change when when a new coach comes in. That's why the Yankees are trash because they have a philosophy that doesn't work. Yeah.
00:48:15
Speaker
and they've let it rot the entire organization.
00:48:21
Speaker
i just it's It's very interesting how one NLE's team ended up you know firing their manager, even though personally I don't think it's Thompson's fault 100%, and they they're doing great now. They've you know turned it around, and the Mets are still losing. They're below 500 still.
00:48:37
Speaker
But honestly, I do give Stearns credit for sticking with Mendoza, though, even though I know he's made some bad choices. Why wouldn't he stick with Mendoza? He could just blame him when things go bad again.
00:48:47
Speaker
yeah i I think Mendoza's firing would be more justifiable than some of these other guys because he the the whole staff got fired at the end of last year. Yes. So once you've once the whole staff below you is fired, you're kind of next.
00:49:05
Speaker
And I mean, my theory with, with this, with Stearns, especially as this, you can be a great business owner, but an awful investor in other companies. And what I mean by that is these money ball guys who succeed in the small markets are really good with these budgeting and skills. And they tend to have lower expectations set on them because their payrolls are so low.
00:49:29
Speaker
So yeah, winning the division would be a great goal in Milwaukee. making the wild card and maybe winning the wild card and going to the at first actual round is a, is a goal in Milwaukee. Then they get the unlimited payroll and the expectations that come with it. And a lot of these guys can't really handle it.
00:49:47
Speaker
So as romantic as the money ball storyline can be, i think there is another skillset to just, you know, being a shark. Wait, what did, what did Alonzo say to Stearns when you're still like, you know, punching you? When I'm just being evaluated for the hall of fame, you're still going be fiddling around with your formulas. What a good quote.
00:50:04
Speaker
And he's right. He's right. He's right. While Juan Soto's sitting here liking Yankees photos. What a loser. What a loser. And will respect Alonzo's self-awareness. He didn't say when I make the Hall of Fame.
00:50:17
Speaker
He said when I'm evaluated for the Hall of Fame. Yeah. He will be evaluated. Mike, I love you. I don't think it's going to happen. He won't get in. But he will get evaluated. Good job, Pete.
00:50:29
Speaker
hu So, funny, I don't know, just interesting for you. Will the Mets will the mets be a seller at the deadline at this point? No.
00:50:40
Speaker
It keeps going the way it's going, yeah. Right? No, I think they will be. i think they're going to sell. wow You don't think so? Because I've been to three games this year, and I don't think they filled up 10,000 seats. Dude, how about... Steve Cohen's not going to like that.
00:50:54
Speaker
What's his name? I'm blanking on the the former. Not Devin Williams, the other guy. Luke Weaver? No, the other one. That's a starter. Clay Holmes. Oh, yeah. You're telling me Clay Holmes wouldn't have some value on the market right now.
00:51:08
Speaker
He would would. He's doing pretty well. He would. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying. I mean, they've said that they've already said they were open to trading every pitcher not named Nolan McLean. but um You think Freddy Peralta is finishing a year on that team? Right, right. Now he he will go. Any expiring contract will go.
00:51:24
Speaker
But I find it very hard to believe that billionaire Steve Cohen, who made this big promise to these fans, <unk>t and and he's been very big with the PR. He's been very sensitive on Twitter. Honestly, bad take on him to tweet. Don't even say anything about the team, dude.
00:51:39
Speaker
I don't know if he's going to be able to handle you know a waste a completely wasted season. I think they're more likely to panic buy it. They should panic sell like when they traded off Scherzer and Verlander.
00:51:52
Speaker
They should. Yeah, but when you go out and you get Bo Bichette, who's trash, and you go get Jorge Polanco, who can't stay the field, and you get Bob Robert, who can't stay on the field, and Sebian, who's trash, and least Robert, who also can't stay on the field, to replace guys like Nimmo and Alonso, who don't get hurt and play decent baseball. will.
00:52:13
Speaker
I mean, you shoot yourself in the foot. And he's trash. So why don't they fire Stearns? I agree. They should. be i agree. Answering here.
00:52:24
Speaker
Yeah. But, like, he's been sold as this genius because of the money ball method. Yeah. And i think that I think it's different levels. I think it's different skills.
00:52:36
Speaker
Cohen was like, Cohen couldn't wait for his contract to be up in Milwaukee. Yeah. Yeah, i think it's I think it's very similar to like college sports and pro sports in this way where guys like Nick Saban couldn't cut it out in the NFL because in the NFL, you're coaching men.
00:52:54
Speaker
In college, you're coaching boys. You're bringing boys in from high school who are impressionable and you're giving them the sales pitch of I can give all of i can make all of your dreams happen. In the NFL, they're not buying it.
00:53:06
Speaker
And then vice versa, there's guys that go to the and that are in the NFL who then go to college and can't do it. It's different skills. yeah And I think being the GM of a you know Oakland, whatever they are now, and being a GM of Miami is a lot different of a skill than being a a GM of the Yankees or GM of the Dodgers. Yeah.
00:53:31
Speaker
No, you're right. its just interesting. um and We can move on to – I know our last pod was on Beltran and CeCe getting into their respective Mets and Yankees' retired numbers.
00:53:46
Speaker
How about the Brewers? I can't even say without laughing. The Brewers are putting CeCe on their wall of fame for half a season. What a joke. They should be getting clowned for this. What a joke. They didn't win a title in. They just made the playoffs.
00:54:00
Speaker
true They lost the division series. Yeah. no Not a good look. Fantastic half a season. But if we're going by that logic, Gary Sanchez should be a Monument Park.
00:54:14
Speaker
Right. yeah this is shameful. But again, we talked about with the Mets and kind of how we were making fun of like the poverty last pod, right? Like how like Carlos Beltran, yeah, should he never be retired? Probably not, but he's a top 10 Met ever.
00:54:29
Speaker
CeCe Sabathia had a great half a season, but like we said, Gary Sanchez should be in. um But we were laughing about Carlos Beltran with the um being a top 10 Met ever. where How many guys in our lifetime would be more worthy of this in Brewers history than CeCe Sabathia?
00:54:46
Speaker
How many players the Brewers had in their history? ah Are you saying all of them? Yeah. no No, no, I mean, not not all of them, but well let's just say, for sake of argument, there have been 8,000 players that have played for the Brewers. That have played at least, as a hitter, let's say, 70 games, and as a pitcher...
00:55:09
Speaker
20 starts, right? Right. Let's say, let's say for the sake of argument, there have been 8,000 players. Okay. I think probably about 6,000 of them deserve it more.
00:55:20
Speaker
So let's just even start with the last 20 years. Cause we're old enough to know the last 20 years. let's say like 2006 on on that's 500 guys on a 25 men roster, 500 people.
00:55:33
Speaker
Who's more worthy in the last 20 years. And so you see, I got three, Ron Prince fielder, k Christian Yelich. Who else is objectively clearly more worthy than Sabathia?
00:55:44
Speaker
Bryce Terang. No. Jackson Cherrio. He's... No, not yet. Really? see you see i think he's had more playoff success than CCS.
00:55:56
Speaker
I think the difference with CC Sabathia is that, number one, it seems like when guys get in the Hall of Fame, they get a little more of a curve so they can say, hey, we had a Hall of Famer on our team. Number two, when CC had that year in 08, he was like the biggest pitching name in baseball for that half a season. Now, do I think he belongs on this? No, I do not. But I think it's more of a testament to play the level of talent that has been on David Stern's Brewers teams.
00:56:21
Speaker
its It is 5-3 now. I have to go. Goodbye. Oh, missed that one. I'm sorry, Zach. This is not going well. Also, did we mention Ricky Weeks? I love Ricky Weeks. Oh, that's a good one.
00:56:33
Speaker
It's a good poll. weekss CC had twenty starts less than 20 starts. Ricky Weeks has 1,000 career hits. Oh, God. And with the Brewers, he had 1,009. With a.249 average and a one on five OPS plus he made one all-star team.
00:56:49
Speaker
Better than CeCe. 11 years. I can't get there. I'm sorry. Better than CeCe's tenure there. I'm sorry. At least CeCe's 15 games or whatever it was. What about Corbin Burns? Corbin Burns is a better Brewers all-time career. Corbin Burns is fair. Add him.
00:57:06
Speaker
Add him. We got four names after really w ringing our brains on it. Brandon Woodruff. No, I'm kidding. I can almost get close on him. Oh, wait. What's the other guy? ah Ben Sheets? Last name Sheets.
00:57:18
Speaker
Ben Sheets. Ben Sheets. Let's go through him real quick. I'm pulling out early was under.500 for his career, 94 and 96. With the Brewers, he was 86 and 83.
00:57:30
Speaker
ah With a 3.72 ERA. A four-time All-Star. Okay. that You can have him. I mean, yeah it's laughable. a CC should not be on that wall. He played half a season.
00:57:43
Speaker
How about Jonathan Luke Roy? Honestly, not a bad poll. I don't hate that. Finish mvp finished fourth in MVP one time. I really don't hate it though. Put him on the wall.
00:57:54
Speaker
Put on the wall. mean Besides Yowt and Molitor, who else do you have? Yelich? I mean, at this point, put Christian Yelich on there. let's Let's just go through who's on this wall of honor now. then Now you got me thinking.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yowt, Molitor, Yelich. Let's do the later inductions. I won't go too far with this and I know it's going go way too far. But here's some of the names that got in, and this is why I think CeCe belongs. I'm actually coming around on this now. Oh, no. Dave Parker and CeCe got in this year.
00:58:16
Speaker
John Axford. Brian Braun. Jonathan Lucroy. Giovanni Gallardo. Carlos Gomez, Met Legend. Cargo? francisco Francisco Rodriguez, who played for the team from 2011 to 2015. Oh, God.
00:58:32
Speaker
So he, in his Brewer tenure, when 13 and 16, had 95 saves in five years. Wait, wait, Mike. All right, i got one. Ready?
00:58:43
Speaker
Raleigh Fingers. Yeah, fine. He's all famous. but I'm saying last 20 years. J.J. Hardy's on the wall. Ricky Weeks is on the wall. Ricky Weeks is on the wall.
00:58:55
Speaker
Corey Hart is on the wall. Corey Hart is on the wall. This is an embarrassment. These are just the players that we saw. There's ah there's a couple GMs. There's a couple like older names. There's a bunch of older names. I'm not going go into them because half of us won't know who they are. Raleigh Fingers is on the wall though. ah But these are some of the names that we have here.
00:59:16
Speaker
So from guys who started their career from 2000 on, we have Richie Sexton, Ben Sheets, Bill Hall. Oh, Ben Sheets. Ricky Weeks, Corey Hart, Craig Council, J.J. Hardy, Prince Fielder, Giovanni Gallardo, Ryan Braun, CeCe, Trevor Hoffman, John Axford, Carlos Gomez, Jonathan Luke. Jesus Christ, dude. It's longer than the Yankees. I mean, it's little bit above average. They were like, oh, yes, let's put him on the wall.
00:59:42
Speaker
a Only retired brewers who met at least one of nine criteria are inducted on it. What is the criteria, brief?
00:59:53
Speaker
So these are the lists. Okay. i So edit out whatever. I don't care. But the the original class was 58 people. What? 58 people got in the first year. my God. And then they added two additional things in 2015 and 2018. So you need to be one of these nine things. 2000 or more plate appearances. You get that you're on the wall.
01:00:16
Speaker
Oh, this this is just poverty. 1,000 or more innings pitched. You get that? You're on the wall. I see. 250 or more games pitched. You're on the wall. Winning an MVP Cy Young Rookie of the Year or Reliever of the Year.
01:00:31
Speaker
Managing a pennant-winning team. Getting a statue on American Family Fields Plaza. That might be – oh, here's the next one. Being elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Oh, so CC is his auto. and B. Parker walk in with that. If you breathe on the Brewers and make the Hall of Fame, you're in, I guess. Do whatever you want from there. Sorry. That's good. That's good. I wanted to go Trevor Bauer because, Mike, I know you just saw him pitch.
01:00:54
Speaker
I did.
Trevor Bauer Controversy
01:00:55
Speaker
Let's have this conversation. People keep saying that he's MLB ready. I don't think so. He's because he's playing with sub MLB hitters. But go ahead. I'm not against it. I i watched. So it was a tale of two games, basically. The first inning, it felt like he was just, you know yeah Just throwing fastballs, it felt like there was no movement whatsoever. And the fastballs were topping out at the time at about ninety five ninety six um In this first inning, he pitched you know solid. like He sh struck out the first three batters. like You can't complain with that. Didn't give up anything.
01:01:28
Speaker
And then um as the game wore on, like you he started to just basically show off his movement. And I actually think he was just saying, you know what? I'm only going to throw fastballs in the first inning. I think he threw one off speed the entire first inning.
01:01:39
Speaker
And he's like, I'm just going you I think he was just trolling at that point. um The one thing I noticed is that, and people said this on Twitter, so I don't want to act like I'm the only one who said this, but he does remind me a lot of watching like a Kenny Powers or watching like um Ricky Bobby in real life. Like he's doing his little emote every time he strikes someone out.
01:02:00
Speaker
that like that little like i word I think you're glazing over the fact here that he threw a no-hitter in the next game and then struck out 15 in the game after that. So I was between those two stars. I'm going to that. Listen, I'm not saying it wasn't trash. I think he pitched excellent. He he went six innings, had 10 strikeouts. i think he had maybe one walk, if any. um the one The runs he gave up should should not have been earned.
01:02:24
Speaker
They were bad calls from the umpire, and he let them know about it. He ran up to second base, started screaming at the umpire, you know, a bunch of expletives. um And...
01:02:34
Speaker
He didn't get thrown out, but Lou Ford, did the manager, did. They were bad calls. They were really bad calls. They were absolutely bad calls. And, like, you can see the fire is still in him. I think the problem is is that when you're in the position you're in right now for Bauer – You have in order to get the contracts that you want, you almost have to play nice in the sandbox and just kind of roll your eyes and move on. Because now what teams are going to see is this guy's a head case. Yeah.
01:03:06
Speaker
Because how many you're not seeing a lot like we saw what happened Frambois Valdez, right? Frambois Valdez didn't get signed. I saw him last night and just watching him felt head casey just the way he would stare down people when they messed up in the field. the way he was there yeah Okay, okay, okay, hold on. But that's that's different, though, because he's taking it out on his own teammates. Bauer doesn't take it out on his teammates. That we know of. Bauer's getting all angry because he's sticking up for his teammates.
01:03:31
Speaker
and Listen, like I said, I'm not against that. I'm saying people are going to have pause whenever you're a pain in the ass. And Bauer, while he probably is a major league pitcher at this time,
01:03:44
Speaker
is a pain in the ass. And the question is always going to be, is the talent worth the headache? And I think a lot of people are going to answer no to that, even taking out the fact that, you know, he was, let's say unjustly blackballed. Let's call that what it was. yeah He was blackballed.
01:04:00
Speaker
But now, five years later, are we going to... add this guy in to a locker room. like let's say the Mets who are already have problems beyond repair.
01:04:11
Speaker
Is this guy going to help fix the problem? A team that needs pitching. Are we going to solve the problem with this guy? Probably not. No. um And that's the issue. I think talent wise it's there.
01:04:24
Speaker
um But the PR, the PR rehabilitation has been very good on long Island. Yeah. And I think, honestly, part of me questions if Trevor Bauer actually really wants the major league contract.
01:04:39
Speaker
Part me thinks would be better for him to play Martyr here. i don't know I don't know about that. I think he wants the contract. Because you'll have the you'll have your fault the followers. Like, he'll have you, Josh, and thousands of others forever going, oh, Trevor Bauer was Blackwell. This is unfair. And you know just you going on and on about it. And he'll forever look like almost – ave I don't want to say a heroic figure, but he'll be a sympathetic figure for a lot of people. Whereas if he gets signed to a major league team, the story dies.
01:05:10
Speaker
Immediately. I don't think it does. but I think it does. The thing is is that Rob Manfred is such a moron and a terrible commissioner that the whole Bauer blackballing is just another notch in the belt.
01:05:27
Speaker
Sure. but i will It's going to get overshadowed by the ridiculous lockout they're about to have. But I will say his his curve is nasty once he actually started throwing it His stuff is major league. I don't care what anybody I'm not denying that. stuff is major league, and there are teams in baseball who could absolutely use a pitcher right now. He he fooled me for sure, because in the first inning, I'm like, I don't see it. He's topping out at like 95. But he always threw 95, Mike. That's the thing. It's not like it's not like this guy was a 99-mile-an-hour fireballer. Yes, but he always threw 95. But he also used spider tack, and that's why the ball moved, and he can't do that anymore.
01:06:06
Speaker
so that's what i but But he proved and why and why they hate him, why Manfred hates him, that you can get that same tackiness from sweat and rosin. Right. So when you have a guy who's going to go out there and intentionally try to embarrass the product, you're going to have teams who are hesitant to sign him. That's just kind of how it is. He's not trying to embarrass the product. He's trying to embarrass the old man who's you know who's going to be signing his checks. You're right.
01:06:35
Speaker
but Like I said, there are teams out there that are really bad teams like the Phillies who could use another starter. But the problem here here is that we're we're discounting the relationship between the bad teams with that need pitching and the bad teams that have fractured locker rooms. Usually they're both kind of in the middle of the Venn diagram.
01:06:56
Speaker
And you're going to bring in Bauer. I don't think Bauer's going fracture a locker room. ah every time Every time teams have been asked about it, players on the teams, they all say he's a good teammate. He just does weird stuff on his own, not bothering anybody else. I think him and Cole hated each other. And I and i met Bauer a couple weeks ago. In the interaction I had with him, he could definitely put on the face for sure when he wants to.
01:07:22
Speaker
um The concern I have, though, is that... there have been guys that have been accused of similar things to Trevor Bauer that never got released, that got picked up really, or if they did get released, got picked up.
01:07:38
Speaker
There's got to be a reason beyond the issues. Were any of them banned for life? No. Well, there you go. That's the difference. but No, here's what you're missing my point, though. There are people who did what Bauer did who are still playing.
01:07:55
Speaker
you know, Chapman fired a gun at a woman and he's playing. Yeah. There are plenty of guys who've beaten their wives and other things. My point is that I think this is less about the thing that he was accused of, that he was found not guilty of, and more about what the people around the league think of him.
01:08:17
Speaker
I, I think you're, you're so close to the point, but you're not quite there. It's what Rob Manfred thinks of him. And Rob Manfred has told the owners, do not sign him. I don't think Manfred cares about it that much.
01:08:30
Speaker
I think he does, Mike. I think on the list of things on Manfred's mind, I don't know how far Trevor Bauer is on that list, at least not in 2026.
01:08:39
Speaker
Okay, so then he hangs out on Long Island for a while, which is fine by me. I like going to see That's fine by I'll go watch him. But can we see the possibility for second that this might be better for Bauer? I was going to say, Bush League is kind of like where thrives because he's like that personality. And like you were saying, he has the emotes and stuff. It just fits what he's doing better.
01:08:58
Speaker
And he can play victim, which is what he loves to do. Like, he gets to do that. He gets to say, like, oh, like, he's fine here I am pitching great. I'm kicking the 40-year-old accountant's asses.
01:09:10
Speaker
And you won't sign me because, know, you're all a bunch sheep who won't give me a chance. I hate that, too. You're not 40-year-old accountants. Most guys are, like, 20 years old. Oh, I know. I'm just – I'm going along with what the
Player Performances and Scandals
01:09:25
Speaker
the narrative was. Yeah, yeah.
01:09:26
Speaker
i Listen, if I was a GM, would I sign Trevor Bauer? Yes, I would. Based on purely on what I saw, yes. But i i think I find it hard to believe that teams who jobs are dependent on winning aren't signing him out of pettiness on behalf of a commissioner that none of them like.
01:09:48
Speaker
don't know. Dave Serves' job is to win, and he's not doing a good job at it. You could be ineffective at your job, but you could still be doing your job.
01:09:57
Speaker
but it's contradictory. Either they're, they're not signing him because they aren't good at their job and they aren't winning or they're not signing him because they're, you know, bowing down to Manfred. I don't, I think it's more of the, I think it would be, if anything, something in the middle.
01:10:14
Speaker
What else we got? Cal Rally is terrible. And now on the IL, who would have thought, who would have thought he's terrible. Yeah. Who would have called that? Yeah. All three us said that. Yeah. all three of them said that
01:10:28
Speaker
And it's documented. It is documented. School bulls hurt? Pain. That's a shame. Apparently he had some like ah experimental procedure, which is why his timeline went from like four to six weeks to like three.
01:10:46
Speaker
Oh, really? Why would he do something like that? It's a shame. I don't know. was Apparently the risk of re-injury is higher. He's not too good to do an experimental treatment, though. know.
01:10:57
Speaker
I think he's afraid that if he blows his arm out again, he's not getting that contract. If he can come back in a couple months, end on a good note, get his contract, and then get hurt again, he's got his money.
01:11:08
Speaker
Good point. what is What is the Gabe Alvarez? Did I miss this? Gabe Alvarez. I probably shouldn't talk about that one.
01:11:18
Speaker
He was... a Sending illicit text messages to a team reporter. Oh, yes. Oh, my God. Is this the Tigers guy? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:11:30
Speaker
Just, out don't know. things I don't know what's going on with that organization. That's wild.
01:11:37
Speaker
Isn't that like the second or third one? Yeah, that's why i see it's not just him, which is insane.
01:11:45
Speaker
And that wraps up the
Conclusion and Tributes
01:11:46
Speaker
1946 episode of Championship or Bust. Thank you so much for joining us. Rest in peace, John Sterling. Rest in peace, Bobby Cox. We'll see you next time. Go Sabres.