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Who? A Reproductive Endocrinologist, Author & Founder of GayParentsToBe, Dr. Mark Leondires
80 Plays4 months ago
On today’s episode, I had the privilege and honor to speak with Dr. Mark Leondires, the founder, medical director, and partner in reproductive endocrinology at Illume Fertility, with locations in Connecticut and New York. Dr. Leondires is an esteemed member of RESOLVE's Physician Council and ASRM's Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Task Force. In 2012, he founded GayParentsToBe.com, a resource advocating for the LGBTQIA+ family-building community, inspired by his own experience as a gay dad through egg donation and surrogacy.
Dr. Leondires lives in Connecticut with his husband Greg, whom he married in 2010, and their two sons. His personal journey led him to create valuable resources and support for others. He co-authored the book "Building Your Family: The Complete Guide to Donor Conception" with Lisa Schuman, LCSW, highlighting his passion for all aspects of family building, beyond just the medical side.
In our conversation, Dr. Leondires' dedication to representation, kindness, and humanity shines through. We discussed his extensive work and advocacy, making this episode a must-listen whether you are building your family through a third party or supporting someone who is. At Egg Donor & Surrogate Solutions, we stand by these values and are grateful to partner with voices like Dr. Mark Leondires. Please enjoy!
Takeaways
- LGBTQ+ family building has seen significant improvements, with more reproductive endocrinologists and surrogacy providers offering inclusive services.
- Ways that Fertility clinics can prioritize LGBTQ+ competency and create an inclusive environment for patients.
- The process of donor conception can be overwhelming, but breaking it down into manageable steps and seeking mental health support throughout the process can help navigate the journey.
- Open and honest communication with children about their donor conception is essential for their future well-being. One way to navigate the emotional aspects of donor conception is by practicing age-appropriate storytelling and being open to discussing the donor with your child.
- Seek reliable resources such as RESOLVE and reputable surrogacy and egg donor websites like Egg Donor & Surrogate Solutions for information and support is vital when trying to educate yourself.
- Find a healthcare provider who offers personalized care and makes you feel valued and supported throughout the fertility journey.
- Recognize the importance of kindness and gratitude in the fertility community.
Links:
RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association
Building Your Family: The Complete Guide to Donor Conception
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Advocacy for LGBTQIA+ Families
00:00:00
Speaker
On today's episode, I had the privilege and honor to speak with Dr. Mark Leanderis. Dr. L is the founder, medical director, and partner in reproductive endocrinology at Alume Fertility in Connecticut and New York. Dr. L serves as a member of Resolve's Physician Council and a member of ASRM's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Task Force. In 2012, he also founded
00:00:24
Speaker
gayparents2b.com as a resource to advocate for the LGBTQIA plus community. Dr. L resides in Connecticut with his husband, Greg, who he married in 2010 and their two sons. And it was his experience as a gay dad through egg donation and surrogacy himself that led him to create this resource. But it didn't stop there. And he has since gone on to co-author a book with Lisa Schumann, LCSW.
00:00:52
Speaker
building your family, the complete guide to donor conception. In this book, Dr. L's passion for all aspects of family building and not just the medicine is so apparent. And you will hear that in our conversation.
Purpose of the Podcast: Surrogacy and Egg Donation
00:01:06
Speaker
We could have talked for hours, but I am so excited for you to listen to this episode, whether you are building your family through a third party or you love someone who is Dr. L's call for representation, kindness, and humanity.
00:01:20
Speaker
No matter who you are and where you are in this process is something we at Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions stands by. And we are so grateful to partner with the voices and advocates like Dr. Mark Leon-Dearest. So please enjoy. Me, you, and who?
00:01:39
Speaker
Who knew it would take more than two people to have a baby? In a world where infertility is no longer a taboo topic, this podcast will take you through all of the different aspects of surrogacy and egg donation through the lens of many who walk this journey in different ways. My name is Whitney Hall and I am a two-time Surrogate Now Turned Surrogacy Coordinator for Egg Donor and Surrogate Solutions.
Unpredictability in Surrogacy Journeys
00:02:04
Speaker
the very agency I used when I chose to carry for two amazing families. With this podcast, it is our goal to help guide and support you as you learn about what it takes to grow a family in an alternative way, as well as hear inspiring and beautiful stories of how this path has changed lives forever. We can't wait for you to hear about just one more way happy families are created every day.
00:02:33
Speaker
Dr. L, thank you for being here. I know like just amongst your crazy busy schedule and I know computer breakdowns and just all of that in general. So I really just super appreciate you giving your time to us. Yeah, I was actually on a call this morning with the surrogacy intended parent within the first three minutes I got the blue screen of death. Oh, no. I'm like,
00:02:59
Speaker
This is not helpful during this time. Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to be able to bob and weave. And you know, that's actually what it's like to do a surrogacy journey. I could not say that. I mean, you're so correct. Absolutely. That's like the greatest just yep, you got to bob and weave. One of the things I regularly say is that the science behind a surrogacy journey is pretty well worked out, but the people are complicated.
00:03:28
Speaker
Everybody comes to it from a different place. Yeah, no, you're so right. You're so right. So before we get there, I want to just, let's go back.
Career Path in Reproductive Endocrinology
00:03:41
Speaker
What got you down your path to medicine and then just ultimately what led you to reproductive and chronology in the first place? Well, I was always that kid who had like the bug collection.
00:03:56
Speaker
animals, and so on. And, you know, I, as far as like becoming a doctor, when I went to college, I was pre med, but I was also a history major. And then, yeah, I'd had a heart attack when I was a freshman in college. And I let me down that pathway to try to figure it out. And then, you know, in medical school, we do these rotations, you know, right, year of rotation. So
00:04:24
Speaker
My last rotation was OBGYN. You know, I have three brothers. I don't know a lot about OBGYN and one week on reproductive endocrinology. And I'm like, this is awesome. It's got social implications. It's high science. It's rapidly changing. I really love sick people. So we don't really take care of sick people.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I like, you know, things that you can measure. So you can measure or not, right? So that kind of said, okay, well, I want to be a reproductive endocrinologist. So the only way you can get there is to like delivering babies. So, you know, I got into residency program, and then I got into a fellowship, you know, people probably aren't aware, there's only about 40 fellowship spots across the country at any one year. So it's really fortunate to be able to
00:05:18
Speaker
get in and then, you know, I was in the Army too, so I did some Army payback and then I was at the National Institutes of Health and then I was the medical director of the Armed Forces IVF program. And then I got recruited for this job in Connecticut and I've started here in May 1st, 2002.
00:05:42
Speaker
coming up on 22 years, I guess.
Founding Gay Parents to Be and Community Support
00:05:45
Speaker
Congratulations. You know, when I got here, it was kind of struggling. And we're now nine doctors, five offices, soon to be six. And, you know, it works, you know, the yeah, reproductive medicine is
00:06:00
Speaker
is something that is my life. And that is my passion. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, you said it best, right? It is your life, not only just in work, but then you personally went from being doctor to being patient. How was that? Well, I always wanted to be a deaf, right? Yeah. Within the whole LGBT community, there's a spectrum, right?
00:06:30
Speaker
But for me, it took me a while to basically come out and kind of be my true self. And then, you know, it's like, well, how are we going to do this, right? Also, I'm a fertility doctor, you'd think I'd know.
00:06:43
Speaker
So you can, we talked about this a little bit in the book, but basically, you know, I was gonna go for it as a single dad-to-be. Sure, sure. Birdies and- Yeah, let me pause you real quick. The book that you're referencing is the Building Your Family, The Complete Guide to Donor Conception. And we're definitely gonna talk more about it for sure. But yes, you, I mean, not only does this book kind of give you a lot of those like just nitty-gritties, but you have,
00:07:12
Speaker
The thing that I love so much about it is those personal stories, and you were so vulnerable with yours. Yeah. So basically, long story short, while I was moving forward with this process, I did meet somebody who also wanted to have a child. Yeah. And then Greg and I went forward with an egg donation surrogacy process. And although I had already been in the field for a long time at that point in time,
00:07:43
Speaker
Recognizing that you need mental professionals, lawyers, escrow accounts, contracts, it doesn't always work. You know, to flip the table and be on the patient side was a really, you know, an eye-opening experience. And it's so complicated for two men to have a baby.
00:08:05
Speaker
You know, separate from surrogacy, right? You know, I often joke, you know, you know, you have more than a thousand decisions to make. A lot of them aren't in your control. And, you know, I think that, you know, I often say people come to surrogacy for many different pathways. There's the infertility patient that maybe has had recurrent pregnancy loss. There's the cancer survivor. There's somebody with a genetic condition.
00:08:35
Speaker
There's somebody with heart disease. There's a male couples that just don't have a uterus born without a uterus, right? But what I saw from my side is that there was a need for back in 2007, eight, nine, like before gay marriage even went through, like give the LGBTQ plus community information on where to start. So that led
00:09:04
Speaker
As we percolated through our journey, thankfully I have a really supportive entire office here we founded Gay Parents to Be, which is an all-inclusive LGBTQ side about where to start, whether you're gay, queer, trans, lesbian, however you want to identify. And I will often say that while it was kind of, took me a while to be my true self, once you have children, you have to own it.
00:09:35
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Complexities in Surrogacy and Mental Health Support
00:09:37
Speaker
In some ways, I guess I came bursting out of the closet. I love it. I love it. I love it. You know, as far as like helping people start a family, that's my gig. And that's what I do. And I'm really passionate about it. And we'll advocate for it. And we'll, you know, do the extra time necessary to make things happen.
00:10:01
Speaker
And I think that shows in the patients I've taken care of. I mean, one of the things I'm really happy about is there's a lot more people being me out there. Yeah. When I started this, there were only three, you know, out gay reproductive endocrinologists and one who had had kids. Now there's more of me. I know you interviewed Dan earlier.
00:10:27
Speaker
So the other part of the story, there's more surrogacy providers that have doors open to everybody. And that's amazing. And I mean, you may or may not be aware that you can watch surrogacy grow year over year over year. But in the past couple of years, the majority of surrogacy journeys do involve dads to be. So that's an important thing. The other part of the story is,
00:10:58
Speaker
single people, male or female, as well as heterosexual couples are using surrogacy more. So it's more and more accepted. And I think the thing that you guys struggle with the most is where you can find not only women who want to carry baby with somebody else, but women who are clear to carry baby with somebody else. And it is really a huge kind of burden to find those kind of Easter eggs
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah. Carry the bunny. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's, yeah.
00:11:35
Speaker
You're hitting so many points. We're gonna unpack some of this, absolutely. But yeah, I mean, yes, in the seat that I sit in, I get to meet so many women who want to do this, have the heart to do this, and it doesn't always, you're exactly right, it doesn't always work out, whether it's medically and things like that. But before we even go into that fun of it, I mean, you're right, you absolutely have just such a passion.
00:12:02
Speaker
for just all of this in general, you experienced challenges. This, again, prior to gay marriage, are you doing this? It's not, it wasn't necessarily something that, you know, was as prevalent back then as far, or if it was, it was very hush hush and, you know, just that kind of thing. So what were kind of maybe some of those personal challenges that you experienced that kind of led you to be like,
00:12:29
Speaker
I want to fix this or I want to at least give somebody a resource that I didn't have. And then maybe since then, I know you kind of talked a little bit about some of those improvements, right? Like you said, there's more of you and you know, it's becoming more of a topic that people are willing to discuss, but maybe what improvements have you seen from your personal story to now? Yeah. I mean, I think part of this comes into like why I wrote the book with Lisa Schumacher. Yeah.
00:12:59
Speaker
You know, I think that in many ways people are like, well, you know, you just need a donor. Uh-huh. Yeah. Whether you're a single person or you're a queer or you're a guy with really a sperm count or a woman with diminished ovarian reserve. Oh, you just need a donor. But that's really hard. Yeah. Acknowledging how hard it is to find a donor and then processing that, you know,
00:13:25
Speaker
You absolutely have to share this with your child for their future well-being. Thinking about it from their perspective of age-appropriate sharing with the child so they know they were like desperately wanted, they were loved while they were still at this job. And taking that and understanding that, you know, it breaks my
Donor Conception Stories and Insights
00:13:51
Speaker
heart sometimes. I talk to people who've looked at 3,000 donors.
00:13:55
Speaker
And in some ways I'll be like, well, maybe they're not ready for this. We have to really walk it back a little bit and say, you're not getting them. You're getting their family tree. And that by getting their family tree and the things you can control, healthy family tree, healthy genetics, good potential, as well as
00:14:25
Speaker
good mental health screening, because those things are not all solely found in our other things. You should be, you should have like five or 10 donors you can use. Right. Um, and you know, I think we are tremendously visual creatures. So we onto that, but it's almost like you have to find that person that might visually appeal to you, but then almost put that to the side. So, so like,
00:14:52
Speaker
part of I think the struggle of moving forward with third party reproduction is finding a donor. And then, you know, back in 2008, 2009, there was also less visibility for surrogacy. I mean, who are these gals that are willing to carry a baby for somebody else? And then how do you trust them?
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, and the sensationalism, right? Like those Lifetime movies don't help. Oh, this is only for celebrities, you know, just just all of that. And I mean, representation within that and, you know, just, yeah, all of it. And I'm sure most of the people in the audience have not seen a surrogacy contract, but they're dense. And they talk about every thing that can happen and really freaking expensive. Yeah.
00:15:46
Speaker
And there's no guarantee. So like processing all that and basically kind of, you know, we're like the, we have to kind of walk with our patients to get the process because there's always that, that concern of like, what if it doesn't work? Sure. Sure. And thankfully the majority of journeys do work, but not everybody is successful. And, uh,
00:16:15
Speaker
So I think that, that, you know, what I saw in our journey with, you know, biochemical pregnancy, no lining, surrogates that had really big life changes in their life is complicated. And nothing prepared me for it. Nothing in my medical career prepared me for what it was like to be a parent through surrogacy.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that's so great that, you know, I just, I love about the website is it looks at all of those aspects. Your book talks about all of those aspects. I mean, I love, I just had all of these happy tears when I read, um,
00:16:59
Speaker
We are a family built with intention and love through the help of many hands and hearts. And that is just, I mean, that is like, that's third party, right? Like it does take a team. It takes a community and it isn't just, I need a donor.
Inclusivity in Reproductive Health Care
00:17:12
Speaker
I need a surrogate. I do point A, B and C. Like there's so many subs and just all of those factors. And if you don't know where to start and if you, you know, are, have other factors to take into account, whether it, you know,
00:17:29
Speaker
gender identification, what hoops you have to jump through, I mean, insurance, the finance of it, just all of it. There's just so many aspects of it. And I think one of the things that I just love so much about your website is you
00:17:46
Speaker
highlight those things, but then you also are like, but here's how we can solve this. And here's, and if we can't solve it, let's, here's some resources that we can figure out how we can get from point A to point B and all of the subs. What personal thing can there be? Wanting to bring a child into your life. Absolutely. Absolutely personalized.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're so right. You're so right. So obviously your clinic is incredibly open and you have other clinics who are just trying to figure out how can we be more inclusive? What can we do to make this experience more accessible to those in the LGBTQIA plus community? What would kind of be just your advice just from professional to professional?
00:18:35
Speaker
part of our onboarding, part of our annual education also involves LGBTQ competency. So everybody from the person who answers the phone to the financial advocate has to have a certain degree of competency and they might not have walked into your clinic with that. So understanding what happens to sexual and gender and racial minorities
00:19:05
Speaker
as they process through the medical system is important. So another point where onboarding is also for racial minorities. So kind of understanding that, because I think most people that work in a medical office truly actually like to help people. So everybody feels horrible if they make a mistake and they want to know how not to do that. So taking the time to do LGBTQ plus competency, I think is really important
00:19:34
Speaker
And then, you know, looking at your forms and making sure that all in all, G and husband and wife. And, uh, and understanding that, uh, you know, if I walk up to your desk, you know, you can't automatically ask me about my female partner, my wife and trying to really like, you know, I, I, I'm old enough that the pronouns thing is really.
00:20:00
Speaker
really new to me, but to really get comfortable using, you know, they more than he, she, and so on, makes it more comfortable. And if you think about it, the trans populations are really small population, but to walk in those shoes has to be incredibly hard. So to walk in the office is incredibly hard. Absolutely. I've stood up in a public forum now from 2015, like nobody ever wants to come with a fertility doctor, right?
00:20:30
Speaker
Nobody wants to be infertile. Never mind if you're somebody who absolutely needs help and wants to have a child. It's really hard. So educating your patients, looking at your forums. One of the things that I always
00:20:53
Speaker
I don't, I don't really like all talk, no action. So just having a rainbow flag in your site and one page on LGBTQ family building doesn't work. You have to have, you know, blow out the different colors, the rainbow. You also have to, you know, um, you know, put some effort out there. The, the LGBTQ plus community speaks to each other as well. So if you do a good job with this patient, they're going to tell these patients, right? And, uh, so you really have to, you know, you put, put actions behind, behind your words.
00:21:23
Speaker
And you know, it might not be for everybody and that's okay, right? And it's also okay to make a mistake, right? It's okay to misspeak someone as long as you own it and you work towards it. One of the things that we do in our electronic medical record is we color code everybody, whether you're only or whether you're a trans or whether you're a same sex couple, it doesn't matter if you're, you know,
00:21:49
Speaker
of cisgender females, cisgender male, but everybody's color coded. So there's less opportunity for us to make somebody uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, I think we all have to, you know, take the time to be inclusive. And I know there's like a pushback now against DEI and so on. I think the heart of DEI
00:22:13
Speaker
is in the right place. The question is, sometimes everybody makes mistakes. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Well, yeah, again, if the effort is there and the effort is genuine, that matters, that matters, absolutely. One thing I like to say, which you may have heard this already, is the rainbow flag is for everybody. Not just, it's like we welcome everybody.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah. Doesn't matter how you walk through the door, we're here for you. And I think that's the message from me, my partners, our support, the practice, and that filters all the way down. So, you know, if you want to take care of these patients and improve, you know, access to care, you know, people have to embrace it. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. No, I love that. That's so, yeah, that's so beneficial.
Choosing Donors and Managing Emotional Complexities
00:23:08
Speaker
Okay, so going back to something that you talked about, whenever you were discussing
00:23:13
Speaker
just the overwhelming just right like nobody wants to come to the fertility doctor so you know it just takes guts walking in the door now all of a sudden you know we're being met with the a thousand decisions that we have to make some people step one is you know the egg donor process and you i have to admit i was sweating bullets when i'm reading through the medical recommendations that you were talking about and all of the things i was just like
00:23:39
Speaker
I don't even, I don't even know if I have, oh, do I need these required? I don't even, oh my gosh, you know, just all of this. I'm just sweating bullets looking through it. So like at the end of the day, you know, obviously it's a very personal choice for everyone. And you know, there is no rainbow like unicorn out there as far as the perfect surrogate or the perfect donor or things like that, but there's perfect for that person or that, you know, those, those people. What would you say from a, from a physician standpoint would kind of be,
00:24:07
Speaker
like your highlights, if you will. And then like just personally, how did you navigate that overwhelming, hi, here's a database and it's a thousand pictures plus. Yeah. I mean, I think that, um, I mean, there's a couple of questions you've kind of posited in this. So I think that regarding the overwhelming aspect of just moving forward through a fertility clinic, you need to break things up into manageable pieces, right? Yeah, absolutely. So.
00:24:36
Speaker
you know, if you're an infertility patient and you need a donor and a surrogate, or you just need a surrogate, you know, just understand all this third party stuff gets lumped in, but what do you exactly need? But if you take it down the path of, you know, finding a donor, right? I think you and if you're partnered up to kind of think about your own
00:25:05
Speaker
heart about what's important to you. You need to let your head make. Sure, sure. Those those heart based decisions, you know, whether somebody, you know, is sporty or musical or, you know, how their profile reads, those are all important. But I think, you know, try to get above the fray and
00:25:35
Speaker
and piece by piece. So I think anybody who's going to pursue any part of third party pre-production really needs to at least have one, maybe two, maybe three, depending on where you are, visit with an experienced mental health professional that knows, has seen hundreds, if not thousands of patients like you, has seen the other side, the donors in the surrogates, and can help you process your
00:26:05
Speaker
anxiety and perhaps your grief and move you towards acceptance. I think understanding that if you move forward with a donor cycle, right? Well, you didn't want to do that. So there is some inherent kind of like, well, this kind of sucks that you need to get through, right? Sure. You know, to have that person coach you on, you know, what's important.
00:26:31
Speaker
And then there's that anxiety about talking to your child. And that's something that the mental health professionals can do well. Yeah. So, you know, stepwise for my, if we talk about the most complicated cycle out there, like, so, you know, if you need a surrogate, a donor, an IVF and so on, you know, if you break it up into pieces, well, we need to investigate our sperm source.
00:27:00
Speaker
or if you're gonna be the egg source, the egg source first, right? Sure. That all looks okay. And then you need to a surrogate and a gammy donor, right? Now, if it takes 12 months to find a surrogate, let's pick your surrogacy agency first and get on that list. Hmm. Flip the order a little bit, right? Because that's a big decision. It's $150,000 decision when you get done with it, right? So,
00:27:29
Speaker
get my stuff checked out, pick my surrogacy agency and team and so on and get on that list. So now I have 12 months. Not every agency that has a list, just by the way, our agency likes to say we have a bucket. So fun fact, fun fact. You've got things done, right? Now you can like focus on really the big decision and really the only thing you have control over.
00:27:59
Speaker
You can't, you don't necessarily have that much control over who's presented to you as a surrogate. You don't necessarily have control over your own gametes and so on and so on, but you do have, can exercise control of who's going to be your donor. And it is a final decision. Once you get there, you can't be like, Oh, well, you're not going to change the genetics. So then take the time to look. And I think you asked like, what's it like to start looking at profiles? It is.
00:28:28
Speaker
overwhelming. And then you start doing your searches and toning down. But I think, you know, I also find that if you are partnered to have one person be the seeker and one person be the approver doesn't really work, because the approver always finds something wrong. Sit down on a weekend and commit a few hours here and there and hopefully get to like three to five people that have good family medical history, good personal medical history,
00:28:59
Speaker
ideally at least willing to meet the child, hopefully willing to meet you, right? And then, you know, if they've never had mental health screening, that's gonna have to be done. And don't fall in love with anybody. This is a donor, you're not getting them. Their sperm or their egg represents a jumbling of 52,000 genes from five different generations. And you get what you get, right?
00:29:28
Speaker
Um, Whitney, do you have siblings? I do. I do. So, um, it, so I have three biological siblings. And I bet you guys don't want anything on it. One of us looks alike. We all do different things and we have the same parents as far as we know. Right. So if you look in families, you know, there's incredible diversity from that rolling of 26,000 dice on each side. I understand you're having a unique human being.
00:29:58
Speaker
And one of the things you learn from your kids, one of the things I learned from my four-year-old one time is you get what you get. That's right. You get what you get and you don't throw fit. Well, that being said, the first time you open up that donor search profile, you're going to get it all sweaty. But as you do it three or four to five times and so on, you're going to get there. And understand there are likely five or 10 people that you could match with.
00:30:27
Speaker
And it is, the clinic's job is to be the bad guy, to say, don't use this donor because of this, or don't match with this surrogates because of that. So, and the other part of the story is I just had a question that I think I answered on TikTok is like, well, is the embryology laboratory important to your surrogacy journey? And it was kind of like,
00:30:52
Speaker
Why yes, as a matter of fact, it is. People that actually get you pregnant, you can say it's a medical clinic, but it's not even really the medical clinic. It's the IVF laboratory, and the embryologist, the andrologist that do all that magic behind the scenes in the darkness, and eventually have this little bottle of cells
00:31:16
Speaker
that represents the hope of a child. And I say that really carefully based on what happened in Alabama recently. Sure, absolutely. An extrouter embryo does not represent a child, right? It's the hope of a child. Those high tech dream makers in the embryology laboratory are truly kind of the magicians
00:31:38
Speaker
I will often say I'm a physician, not a magician, because you can't. But that being said, it does take this team to help you. And I think that if you're getting really frustrated with your team, I think you have to think about, well, how much of it is where you are. It's not the right team as well, because there are different ways of
00:32:09
Speaker
going through this process. I mean, I probably see five surrogates a week for medical screening and some of them have gone through before and some of them are like, I can't believe you spoke to me for 45 minutes because I've done surrogacy before and I had like a 15 minute consultation with the doctor and they just checked back. So like everybody looks at things differently. I think because I'm a parent through this process, I'm like really personally invested in making sure
00:32:39
Speaker
that every surrogate that we clear, we really did our due diligence on. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So much to unpack. So one of the things, you know, the mental health aspect of all of this is huge, right? Like before you even go down this road, you need to be ready.
00:32:59
Speaker
And then of course, especially if you go the A donor route, you're not only a parent through IVF, but now you are a donor conceived child parent. And that comes with a whole different aspect of things, like you said, as far as just telling their story. And one of the things that you shared in the book was just
00:33:22
Speaker
your personal, you know, journey with your son and his, you know, kindergarten playground and, and things like that. How do you just personally navigate being a parent of a donor conceived child? And what does that look like, you know, just then to now? I know you said age appropriate. So, you know, how have you navigated that?
Talking to Children About Donor Conception
00:33:45
Speaker
Well, you initially, I mean, we were advised appropriately
00:33:51
Speaker
to practice your story while your child's in your arms. You get good at it, right? And the story that begins like, you know, Papa and Daddy really wanted to have a baby. Two boys can't have a baby. The help of somebody to give us some special cells. And then we had, in our case, Miss Lisa carry you in her tummy, right?
00:34:19
Speaker
You know, getting good at that story says that when a question comes up, it just rolls off your tongue. Because, you know, your children are going to know every little chink in your armor. So they're going to be able to see if you're sweating. So that's kind of the start of it, right? And now that we have 10 and 12-year-olds, you know, we just kind of bring, I'll just bring up little nuggets kind of casually.
00:34:49
Speaker
So sadly, most recently, my mom passed away and we were driving back from her funeral and so on. And I was just in the car with both of them and we were talking about, I said, you guys, how we've talked about the donor before and so on, but understand that she's a very special person to our family and she might have her own kids now. And you guys might have a bigger family because they were sad
00:35:18
Speaker
that they lost a family member, right? So my 12-year-old said, wow, I might have a sister. And my 10-year-old said, oh, great, because I don't like my brother, right? So, you know, with these policies that they might have other half siblings out there, right? Sure. And then, you know, I said in that card trip, like,
00:35:48
Speaker
Well, I'm tired of calling her our donor, right? We need to call her something else. And the 10-year-old said, well, we should call her our fairy godmother. Oh. Like, I could not have come up with that, right? I love that. So they've kind of processed that. And my 10-year-old is a little bit of a soccer player. And we shared with him recently that our donor was a soccer player.
00:36:16
Speaker
Oh, that's cool. Cool. Yeah. 12 year old, we were talking about how, you know, she, she reported like being very artistic and so on. And he really likes art. So like these little nuggets kind of further enrich the story and, and they know that they were donor conceived, but you always have to remind them because, you know, even for my 12 year old, he said, people, you know, say, well, you must have been adopted and somebody gave you away.
00:36:44
Speaker
And so we reinforce the conversation of, well, that's not the case. So those people don't understand there's lots of different ways for people to be a family. Right, right. And it just reinforces that phrase of like, no, very much built with intention. I think that they have to process it on their own and you have to drop little nuggets in and peak their interest because
00:37:11
Speaker
you know, we're all a little self-absorbed, but when you're like nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, maybe until you get to be like 25, it's just all about you, right? Absolutely, yeah, we're very egocentric. So I hope that that helps. I mean, I encourage everybody, even if you haven't said anything to your kids yet, if you do have a donor-conceived person, you need to step up and get there because
00:37:40
Speaker
We do know that people who find out through 23andMe, or from, you know, Aunt Esther saying, well, you know, your mom's not really your mom, she's the egg donor. Like that's devastating. The person that you've trusted the most your whole life, your parent, does not tell you who you are, right? And I get it, you know, maybe there's so internalized grief and shame and fear of not being loved.
00:38:10
Speaker
them not recognize it as a parent. But, you know, to, to be a parent is a verb, you must parent. Sure. Mother is not about genetics, it's to care. To be a father is to care and raise
Known vs. Anonymous Donors
00:38:26
Speaker
a child. So when I'm very careful with those words, because, and some people will call their egg donor, the, the mother and I will know,
00:38:38
Speaker
This woman who donated her eggs had no desire to be a mother. She had a desire to help other people be parents. Because it is really important to have those words kind of essential in a donor-conceived family. So we have two dads in our family. So our kids will be like, no, I don't have a mom.
00:39:03
Speaker
just like blithely kind of let it roll off. And sometimes the adults will be like, what, right? But because the kids were nonplussed about it, they're just going about their business, right? So I think that, you know, even in heterosexual, you know, opposite sex couples, there's different family arrangements. There are single dad families, single mom families, divorce mom families, parent families. I mean, the divorce rate in the United States now is upwards of 50%.
00:39:33
Speaker
So there's actually very few beaver, cleaver, nuclear families out there. Yes, absolutely. So recognizing that talking to your kids, that families come in all different shapes and sizes. And it's all about love and caring for each other. And mutual respect, I think, is where to go. And regarding talking to your kids, you have to tell them an age-appropriate version of the truth.
00:40:02
Speaker
they need to know the truth. You know, you probably already realized from this podcast, sometimes I talk too much. Sometimes my husband will be like,
00:40:15
Speaker
Oh, very nice. Great. Just yeah, just just a slow like and see. No, no, I love it. No, but but but you're so right. And it is such a it is it reinforces again, it's, it's that mental health aspect. It's that emotional aspect. It's not just science and point A to point B. I mean, you know, and not to say that the science is simple, but it the the emotional aspect is is an extra layer that is really important and is so important for the healthcare provider.
00:40:45
Speaker
and the whole team to be aware of and take into account as you're figuring out and identifying what makes the most sense for that particular person's journey, right? Like that level of care. One of the things you brought up was the 23andMe and all of that, the word is not used anymore, but anonymous is not a thing, right? Like unidentified is a thing, but there's no such thing as
00:41:12
Speaker
anonymity anymore. So, I mean, what would you say? I know the medical aspect of it, right? Like you were saying, hey, if you can find a donor that's willing to do a known cycle, that's even better because of the changes that can happen with medical history and just things like that. What other
00:41:33
Speaker
things would you say as far as just that you have the medical side of it, but then that emotional side of the known donor, right? Like I know in talking to you, some donor conceived people, the words, right? Like you said, bio mom is not a word that you like. I talked to a donor conceived person and she refers to her donor as bio mom, but she's comfortable with that, right? So like, everybody's going to find their own, right? Yeah. Yeah. So what would you say, you know, just that emotional aspect,
00:42:00
Speaker
as a parent of, you know, it sounds like you've used, again, not anonymous, unidentified, like what, how have you kind of navigated that emotional aspect from a parent? And then what sounds like you, your kids kind of take the lead on? So in our journey back in 2008, there weren't a lot of known donors. So right, exactly. We have an, we have an anonymous donor that has an identity release at the age of 18, if the kids are. So, but I, you know,
00:42:29
Speaker
What I've learned over the years is that when people have the opportunity to meet their donor, and it doesn't have to be exchanging phone numbers and going to lunch, it's just like a Zoom that maybe remains anonymous because that's driving home the point that there is no anonymity, right? Anybody could probably find their donor within 10 clicks, right, if they try to. Absolutely, yeah. With that being said,
00:42:58
Speaker
Having a conversation about meeting someone, I think relieves so much stress and helps people feel more comfortable about the process. And it also will give you the opportunity to say, you know, we met them and we liked the way they smiled and we liked their laugh.
00:43:21
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of the donor websites now have pretty good video on top of pictures. Yeah, absolutely. That's also really important. But, you know, I think that there's a lot of anxiety about finding this person that's going to kind of be part of your family genetically. So why not if you can meet them? Now, if they don't want to meet you, that doesn't mean you can't use them, right?
00:43:52
Speaker
if the door is open, you know, take a walk through that door. I do have people who match and they then go back to the agency and ask if they're willing to do a non-identifying Zoom. And for our clinic, we moved from an anonymous program to a known program. And when we asked our donors, you know, 20 to 30-year-old donors if they're willing to be known, 95% of them said yes. Absolutely.
00:44:21
Speaker
And they would like to know where their eggs are going to. So we had an anonymous egg donation program that now is known. So I think that this is all part of your story. And I try to stress that it's not a job interview. And it's bilateral. So if the donor doesn't like you, they might say, no.
00:44:46
Speaker
Um, but, but that's okay too. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No, it's so is, it's so is, I mean, that's one of the, you know, our, our agency has, you know, this, this known donor program that we really are, you know, push forward because we so badly went for everybody to not only is that medical aspect of it, but to, to be a part, to be invested and to, you know, and, and to know it is part of your story and that's important. And it's not something like you said, it's not,
00:45:13
Speaker
It's not shameful, it is. But on both sides, you've got to get there, right?
Resources and Support for Donor Conception
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's so, yeah. Yes.
00:45:26
Speaker
No, absolutely. Absolutely. So, okay. Here's something that I, you know, I, and you and I were talking about this a little prior to, you know, hitting the, the record button, but, um, you know, I, I have a very love hate relationship with, um, just,
00:45:43
Speaker
the technology, specifically the internet and that gorgeous double-edged sword that is Dr. Google and Dr. Facebook. You know, yeah, what obviously with gayparents2v.com and then your book, Building Your Family, you know, it's kind of, it mitigates that this idea of like, Hey, you don't just Google infertility and then you have, you know, a gazillion pages, right?
00:46:07
Speaker
But what would you say maybe for those who are hungry for a little bit more, what would you say is some of those reliable resources that you as, you know, just a parent through this process as well as just a physician that you would say, Hey, this is probably a really good route to go. Well, just like, unfortunately, the Dr. Google is information without perspective. And medicine right now is all about personalization and perspective.
00:46:35
Speaker
So you can't necessarily get that without talking to somebody who has experience. But as far as reliable resources, you know, Resolve, Resolve in England, those are reliable resources with vetted information. Many of the surrogacy websites, as far as the information about the process, is also reliable and useful and so on. Regarding kind of, you know,
00:47:04
Speaker
Um, for dads to be, there's men having babies and gays with kids. Uh, there's a lot, uh, there's, you know, there's a queer family podcast out there. Um, that's helpful. Um, Jamie Skelton. Uh, so there's a lot of resources out there for anybody to move through. Lisa Shuman, who I wrote the book with has, uh, has a wonderful podcast, uh, from the center for family building.
00:47:33
Speaker
So I think that as you try to collect your information, you know, always look behind the scenes, right? So, you know, the reality is there is kind of this medical industrial complex, right? And people are trying to get you to sign on with them. But I think it's important that you talk to many different providers and make see what fits, right? And, you know, my
00:48:02
Speaker
I'm not for everybody, you know, I'm a little bit blunt. I'm a little bit the way it goes. And, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm not as sensitive to my patients as I should be, right? So some people like that because they always know where they stand, right? Absolutely. One of my partners who I worked with for 20 years, like, I'll frankly say he's much nicer than I am.
00:48:30
Speaker
You have to figure out what works for you. I think that as you go down the process, I think you should think of internet resources as kind of your step to something that is more personalized. I like that. I like that a lot. Absolutely. No, that's fantastic. I love that. One thing that's really important is your friends or your family may have a story to share with you
00:49:01
Speaker
but it's usually not that helpful. It probably isn't personalized. And everybody's little words of advice I think you have to take are little drops of love because they want you to succeed. But take it and process it and understand that you need to see a provider that knows what to do. Right. Yeah, it comes from a place of love, but let's also go to the expert as well. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:49:31
Speaker
What, so one of the things that I so incredibly related to, it was in the very beginning, you and Lisa, you know, just remarked how, you know, we work for the baby pictures, right? And I am so relieved. I am so, so relieved to that. What would you say, you know, just gets, I mean, you said it, this is your passion, but what would you say, you know, just like gets you excited about coming to work every day?
00:50:01
Speaker
You know, I think that, you know, we're creating, we're taking hopes and dreams and working to make them reality, right? And, you know, we're kind of the assistants to this amazing process. And, you know, my work is challenging. You know, there are days that I get baby pictures and there are days that I, you know, people have a miscarriage or maybe their third miscarriage and so on. So we're on this kind of steep.
00:50:31
Speaker
roller coaster. True story, this morning I woke up and I looked at my phone and I have an email from a patient that's been to four other fertility clinics. She has met a lot of eggs and she thanked everybody in the office for just taking care of her. So, you know, as a caregiver, that's kind of what fuels my engine, right? So I think that those recognizing kind of
00:50:59
Speaker
that the ability to touch other human souls and to reach, to give them support is what helps me get to work. And I think, I want to encourage everybody out there, because I think we do need more kindness in the world. You know, if you are thankful for somebody who helped you on your journey, please thank them, because that actually means a lot to us. Yes, yes, I can reiterate that for sure. You know, the energizing aspect of taking care of other humans
00:51:28
Speaker
is like, you know, this is life changing stuff, you
Joy in Family Building and Importance of Kindness
00:51:32
Speaker
know? Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. No, you're so right. Because it doesn't always have a happy ending. But yeah, but the passion and the desire to get there is still there. And I mean, yeah, it gets me going personally, for sure. Absolutely. Well, I will end with this.
00:51:54
Speaker
For anyone who knows me, they know that I have a very codependent relationship with coffee. And so I always like to ask, and I think you kind of alluded to it, but what literally or figuratively filled your cup this morning? Well, that email filled my cup. Yeah, absolutely it did. And I took that email and I walked in, I showed it to two nurses.
00:52:20
Speaker
who are sitting there ready to take care of patients. And then I sent it to the whole practice. This is what we do, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I also start my day first person up, last person to spin to bed usually, but this is my day with a double espresso machine, let the dog out and so on. But, you know, I think that knowing that nine million people walk this earth
00:52:50
Speaker
technology, right? I think that, you know, right now, you know, there is this concern about restriction of access to care. Absolutely. That we all have to kind of, you know, vote with our hands, like literally, you know, make sure people understand that we for we need we want access to this amazing technology. And, and that, you know, there is this kind of
00:53:19
Speaker
steep attrition rate from eggs down to embryos, and not every embryo works. And we want to be able to have that access to care. So I think that what fills my cup is the opportunity to give people this incredible gift or get them to the point that they know they did everything they could.
00:53:49
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So this is a big deal. You know, we are, we are like art that what I do and the, you know, the hundreds of fertility clinics all across the country do is, is, is so personal. Yes. We're so vulnerable. And there are so many fears, sometimes real or unreal that need to be addressed. So taking the time to like, just, you know, get to know your patients and
00:54:18
Speaker
you know, and make sure that that you have the team around you because I'm I can't function without nurses, medical artists, everybody's kind of working together. And I think for the patients out there, you guys need to know that every day, we get not one pregnancy test, but 20. Right? Sure. And we're on that same roller coaster that you are. Right. And so, so
00:54:48
Speaker
we're as close into it as we can be, but we're all on your side and we all want you to succeed. And this is like, this is life-changing technology that has just brought so much to the world, right? So I don't know if you're aware that like Elizabeth Carr, the first IVF baby in the United States was at the State of the Union last night, right? Yes, she was, yes. So regarding kind of
00:55:17
Speaker
this book, you know, I think I'm proud of it. I think it is a really good resource. If you're thinking about donor conception, there's something in there for everyone. If you already have a donor conceived child, the last few chapters are actually really helpful. They're fantastic. Talking about talking to your child as well. So, you know, I hope people find it useful. It is, I don't know, it's on Audible and a real book and so on and so on. But I think I would like encourage everybody to be kind to each other, appreciate, you know,
00:55:46
Speaker
In my, the dedication in the book here is, this book is dedicated to those who have helped millions bring children into their lives and to a future where a family building to, a family building to help can be accessible to all, to my husband and children who have changed with me forever, and the three amazing women who brought, you know, my family. So this is, this is humanity, right? This is what, what we want. We want this.
00:56:13
Speaker
expression of humanity, which is like just amazing that we can do this. Yeah, no, I love that. Oh, I love that so much. So this question came to mind as you were talking, it's so important to have that team. It's so important to be represented and to have that, like you said, it's personalized. So when you are building that team, whether it's your clinic, your attorney, your agency,
00:56:42
Speaker
I would also jump on the fact, if you at any point in time feel like a number,
00:56:48
Speaker
That's not the right spot for you. You should never feel like a number. And so those questions, especially from that agency perspective where I sit in and I talk to gestational carriers who have felt like a number when looking at other agencies or intended parents who are like, I can't get anybody to talk back to me, but they've already taken $15,000 from me. That's not a position that you need to be in.
00:57:14
Speaker
And so it's worth it to do a little bit of that extra go along because that team is so important because of that humanity aspect. Yeah, I mean, I think that it would be nice of everybody
00:57:26
Speaker
had the opportunity to independently find somebody who had worked with that agency before to have an idea. Because obviously you're only going to get a referral from somebody that was happy. So sometimes you have to beat the bushes a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Dr. L, I super appreciate your time and your vulnerability and just your passion and a thing that
00:57:49
Speaker
We are, I personally am just so passionate about, but our listeners and the help that you do and just all of the things you do specifically with the LGBTQIA plus community, but just in general for those who are all receiving, you know, just care as they are building their family. So thank you again, just so much. Now I gotta, I have more podcasts to listen to. There you go. That's exactly right. Thank you. Cheers. Bye bye.
00:58:17
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Me, You and Who. We appreciate your time and hope you enjoyed our discussion today.
00:58:27
Speaker
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00:58:56
Speaker
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00:59:20
Speaker
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