Transcript
Speaker: Today's guest, Sonja Sinterhauf, HR Director of Aviv Group. And um maybe, Sonja, we start with a short introduction about yourself. Thanks for your time and that we can do the podcast, but let's start directly into it.
Speaker: Thank you for inviting me. So let me share a few things about myself. I'm a strategic people and organization leader um with 15 plus years of experience um and in various roles, whether it's a business partner role, HR director role, or number one role in a smaller organization.
Speaker: um I shape organizations across technology, e-commerce, and creative industries. um I actually started my career on the business side in marketing and in advertising roles.
Speaker: And throughout my career, whether it's at Miro, at Zalando, Black Lane or Airbnb and earlier in music and communications, or let people and culture transformations that help businesses to grow, to change, um leaders to evolve and teams to thrive.
Speaker: ah So I would say keywords are organizational design of development, talent strategies that can be executed then in talent acquisition, talent management, L&D space, but also building capability frameworks, ah how to do performance management, building culture, and managing the change that comes with that.
Speaker: Because you can have a strategy, but then you need to implement it as well. And that that's about change management. And I think I'm particularly drawn to environments in growth or transition where culture and capability become the decisive levers for impact. um And my goal is to help the organizations and people to move confidently through this evolution and not just managing it, but also feeling good in driving and going through the the evolution process. I also mentor and coach HR professionals and um business leaders, helping them find their unique posture and approach to their role, strengthen their self-awareness, their decision-making and capacity to lead through transition and the ambiguity that comes with that.
Speaker: And to be honest, I think nowadays everything has changed and I'm fascinated about change, how we are invited and requested to learn, to grow together and find our way with it.
Speaker: And for example, also as an HR community nowadays in and the time of AI and the rise of skill-based organizations, um I was at the Unleashed two weeks ago. And I think learning together, um benefiting from experience others made and yeah co-creating the next chapter for organizations just very exciting.
Speaker: I would leave it to that. And let's dive into the topic. yeah so I think one one aspect that you just mentioned is the performance management aspect. I was just hosting an event in Munich where we invited...
Speaker: 50 CEOs and talent executives, and we had the tagline performance management. And then there were different perspectives from guest speakers, but also from the guests, because and everybody had a lot of experience in implementing it, reviewing it, being part of it, whatever it was.
Speaker: And what ah was for me a big takeaway, there is no wrong and right performance. a topic like performance management, for instance. But overall, I think in the entire HR space, there is never really a right or wrong because it really always depends highly on the company stage, the environment, the culture,
Speaker: the perspectives, whatever you want to be from a the DNA perspective. um And therefore, I have a couple of questions for you. um But maybe we start with um the vision for you when you talk about an HR business partner role, because this sometimes is really vague. Some companies have it defined very specifically.
Speaker: But then when you look into another company, they also have defined it very specifically, but it's different from the other companies. So what is your maybe vision and definition for and business partner function?
Speaker: So first of all, I think that the roles called business partner... In my vision as a part, there are other roles that are not called business partner, but they actually business partner. So, for example, also in TA, but also roles and centers of excellence. They are all there to partner with the business, to build solutions, programs that help the business to grow.
Speaker: um But when we think about the HR business partner role as per the job title, ah would agree there are many ah job titles as as a business partner, but the content is not always the same. So I've not seen a role that has a similar variety of how it engages in the organization, what's the expectation on the role, how you know what persons also um move into the role with what expectation on themselves, what they want to drive as an impact.
Speaker: but so For me, um the value add of a business partner role is really being a strategic partner. So understanding the business, um then assessing the organization um from from the understanding of the business. What capabilities are there? What do we need in the future? What skills are needed? What is the leadership model? What's the culture? um And then designing and driving a people organization strategy together with a business leader. What could be the pillars of such a strategy?
Speaker: So it's definitely, to me, it starts with what are the goals of the business? And it it makes a difference if a business wants to grow, um expand into new markets. If a business is diversifying, um how do they want to grow so organically or through acquisitions?
Speaker: All that defines basically the road. And then as a business partner, um I start with looking at how does the organization look like? So really an assessment, what's the structure, what are the capabilities? And you mentioned performance management at the start.
Speaker: How performant as an organization is their data even um available? Do you mention that also, for instance, with certain um KPIs, like if a I don't know, a private equity company just came into a company and then the goal is profitable growth.
Speaker: um Do you look then also from a business partner perspective, for instance, at the rule of 40, which is like EBIT plus growth, right? um It should be bigger than 40. And then you look at, okay, what are the maybe fat parts of an organization where you should maybe cut them off because they don't have any value based on that North Star? um Or is it maybe something different what you look at?
Speaker: Yeah, so definitely a business KPIs. um And if you want to your streamline an organization, because you know becoming profitable or preparing for an IPO, e etc., that that requires a different strategy um and measures on the organization and the workforce. Then, for example, um if you just expand and you know money is not a problem, so that is different um means different levers and and um parts of the strategy to to pull. But really for me is the business partner needs to understand the business um in order to do that.
Speaker: um Plus also it's good to have some data available, like workforce demographics, performance data, et cetera, and reliable data. um In order to do this assessment, I think the business partner definitely needs to be part of the senior leadership team.
Speaker: It's not an addition. It's not a guest. It's a part of the leadership team. And that also comes with sharing information about the business. How are we doing? um What are the plans?
Speaker: and gaining these insights in order to inform the work. So really being part of the senior leadership team, irrespective of the reporting line. Look me, for instance, when you have, let's say, a tech organization, and then you have the, let's say, three simple business units, the tech and product unit, then general and admin, and then go to market.
Speaker: And then you have, let's say, it's an organization of, I don't know, 500 to 1,000 employees. And then you have the people function where the and business partnering function is either on the top level or one part of it. And then you have um the business partner in the, let's say, C-level team.
Speaker: But you also have different business or the business partner leader in the C-level team. And you have some business partner um that covering, let's say, general admin, go-to-market tech and product sitting in the go-to-market team.
Speaker: senior leadership team meetings, discussing stuff and in tech and product the same, that they have all the context and all the, also visibility. and Is that what you mean by that?
Speaker: Yeah. So it's not the organizational setup where the business partner is reporting to because also there there are different ah models and there's no right or wrong. It's really being integrated, included, um getting information, being part of the discussions, sharing their view.
Speaker: And this is also, i think, damn the value is created if a business partner is also heard and there the view is welcomed and considered. Do you have maybe an example where um a decision was made because of the great partnership and utilization of the business partner function in a business unit?
Speaker: um And maybe on the other hand also an example where a decision was made that was missing that perspective um and how different the decision-making looks like in units when the function is well-defined and well set up versus not.
Speaker: What comes to mind as one of the um ah main topics, I think, is in talent placement. So whether that's hiring or a succession internal mobility, i think a business partner understands the organization, the leadership team, the culture. Let's say it's product and tech, for example. It's part of a bigger organization or the group.
Speaker: But it has their unique specialties. They know they the the history of a team, etc. um And I think one of their pitfalls is when the business partner is not involved in senior leadership hiring.
Speaker: So testing on culture, testing on leadership as a focus, like the values and um considering how... more the the The collaboration part would play out. So their approach to collaboration, working with others, might play out in the team based on their insights. And we also say emotional intelligence, you know understanding people. Because I think... And many ah hiring processes, technical skills, um and yeah mean ah communication skills are tested.
Speaker: But it's their business partner usually has insights into an organization and a team that can assess a candidate um much better and in terms of the fit to the team. mean, from how they approach working together.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think that that's where i would always say the business partner should be involved and the contrary is if they are not. And I've seen examples where um great people with great track record, skills, experience, i put in roles and then it doesn't work because it's ah it's a system of people and you can't underestimate it. And a business partner usually has this. An example would be of, let's say,
Speaker: um promoting the best engineer or the best seller into a management role um whereas maybe the capabilities in management are not there and also maybe also not really the motivation but because nobody really has an overview and just that's the don't know the traditional belief that this needs to happen um that the best IC gets promoted into a management role that you can really destroy a team i'm would that be it's something what i think of now top of mind when you mention it would that be also the case that could happen it's It's a scenario that ah does happen. That's right.
Speaker: um and also so much Someone doesn't have the the motivation for a leadership role, then I would always say, know irrespective of what's the setup, um consider an expert ah career. They do exist.
Speaker: um But that's what I said. you know the they If someone is technically strong and then is kind of pushed or encouraged, but ah there's no one who's really assessing what does it actually take. And it can be, you still go ahead with this placement.
Speaker: But year through the ah the interview or the business partner being involved, ah surfacing ah aspects that can and should be considered to help the person be successful, you know, in terms of development plan, in terms of um giving support, coaching and mentoring, because in the end, everyone wants this to be a success, right? Not just the person being placed, but also the organizational leadership.
Speaker: ah Definitely. um I think another example of what is really important um top of mind for me is the headcount planning aspect um or you can call it succession planning also that is is one part of it maybe.
Speaker: um I saw a lot of organizations struggle with orchestrating the process of planning. It's not about that they are not able to deliver a plan but I think that the process behind the planning is often broken because nobody takes the full ownership or nobody is associated with the full ownership of the planning process.
Speaker: And if they have the full ownership, sometimes maybe they don't have the authority or and the trust of, let's say, all the C-level or directors or VPs, whoever is involved.
Speaker: um that they just let um deadlines of the owner in the planning process determine their planning. And then everybody is doing it on their own anyway.
Speaker: um And then you have a plan that is signed off with finance, budget signed off that is not orchestrated. um where all the people thought it's also orchestrated, but it actually was not.
Speaker: And then later on, you need to clean up the mess with, okay, what can we really now hire? Maybe some hires are already being made because it looked like, but then you saw, oh, no, actually we could have not have made this hires because we did not orchestrate the plan well. um What role do you see in headcount planning um or or the business partner role?
Speaker: where Where do you see it in the high-com planning prospect? And also, how is this managed well in your perspective? Because I think that's so hard to do for any organization in any size. Yeah.
Speaker: It's a great topic. And I think there it's not just a business partner, but the business partner has a role in it. I mean, you you you mentioned there's finance, there's the business strategy. You have an organization that is there with other of people, right? And I um i think the headcount planning or planning properly is absolutely valuable. Yes.
Speaker: You don't need to have sophisticated processes, I think. You don't need to have the best system to support it. um To me, it starts with the mindset of leaders who take ownership of their organization, say, okay, I have these and these people. There are these and these capabilities and that and their proficiency level.
Speaker: Understand what is needed to deliver on the business strategy. And that's what I mentioned before, and that's where the business partner comes in to assess where are the gaps.
Speaker: And the gaps can be, okay, ah we need to build more analytical skills or our tech stack is changing. So we need to build that um and comparing basically the current to the target picture.
Speaker: And out of that, what do we do? And headcount planning, it's more the...
Speaker: yeah they they're working with the numbers, working what is there, and then how much to add or not, because maybe there is no budget to add. So then you have, okay, what do we have?
Speaker: Can we develop or not? So it ties into you and it forms um talent measures. But I think it's really the business partner works out their talent supply, the talent demand, sorry, the talent demand picture with the business leaders. based on what do we need in terms of capabilities and what do we have and how do we bridge the gap and this can be it can look different in any organization and for that i mean a google spreadsheet or excel can work too or a mural board i worked at mirror so i like that too um to to illustrate you know the as is and what do we need um
Speaker: I think it's mindset and ownership more than processes and tools. Nowadays, however, organizations or businesses change quite a bit. There's a lot of pressure. you know There's some unforeseen challenges in the market that you have to pivot to.
Speaker: So I think the reliability or you know the the length of foresight that you have with a headcount plan, it's getting shorter and shorter. yeah I think this annual headcount plan has only so much value or reliability.
Speaker: And it needs to we we we we move more into shorter cycles. So, okay, is our plan still valid? Do we need to change something? So I think shorter iteration cycles will be ah useful.
Speaker: Yes, and I think I also see the same as you see there. um Also in the past, I think companies that planned annually and were dynamic, they maybe then also just planned annually, but they iterated already um during the year without doing this official update.
Speaker: um But there may be then some, I don't know, forecast updates and so on and so forth. um But what I also see now more and more is that also from a recruiting perspective, right? Because I provide recruiters and sometimes I'm sitting on the receiving end of this planning cycles um where you could say that q four and Q1 is usually the busiest because most of the companies start planning in Q4 already and now some urgency is that they have already. um And in Q1, it's usually signed off and nothing is ready. So you need extra support, right? And this can go until the entire year or sometimes it's just a peak.
Speaker: um It's a bit of a mix. But what I see, for instance, instance is especially this year, that there is no real seasonal spike, that there is more a regular spike through or no spike. It's more irregularity because of different spikes that companies just...
Speaker: come with new planning um um bottlenecks during the year, at the end of the year and the beginning of the year. So there is no real seasonality more.
Speaker: This is my perception over the past eight years. I have some data on it that this is now really changing. I would be interested in that data. But what you say resonates, definitely.
Speaker: i feel that in this time, and yeah we also want to really look geopolitical, um there's so much uncertainty. And I think many leaders are not equipped or don't feel confident in navigating this uncertainty, the ambiguity that comes with it. So, and they're their side on you know how to optimize, ah to um generate some wins, it's it's it's shorter.
Speaker: So to me, I would like even to to use the word erratic. and i Like we we need this, we need this. And then the whole machine, yeah you know, with external recruitment agencies or internally, you feel you move from one to the other side and then stop and go again. And this it's um I don't think it's healthy for an HR organization, for an organization, for and recruitment ah partners like ah you as well.
Speaker: um Yeah, we lost up a bit there. I don't know if that, we need to plan, but we need to iterate. But on that way, we should not lose our heads.
Speaker: And I sometimes have the impression that there's so much, so many people that are short on breath and, you know, look for what do I need to do now to secure this, to do that. It's, um there is no forward looking or no foresight um perspective.
Speaker: And I think we need to calm down. It doesn't mean slow down. It just means calm down and always, you know, orientate and say, where are we? What comes next? And the expectations, the challenges, but for example, from the external marketers so might come, you know, ah more unforeseeable than in the past.
Speaker: but we should not get into this, you know, such a hamster wheel because that I think ah bears just the risk of us not seeing what we should see and incorporate to plants.
Speaker: So this erratic um spirit is what I'm observing and hearing from others as well. Yes, that's true. Also in larger organizations, not just in smaller.
Speaker: um um If you would now define the ideal um business partner, value add and also the describing the person as a business partner in just short bullet points.
Speaker: How would you define both? um If you try to keep it as short as possible. That challenge short as possible. Okay. So I mentioned it already couple of times, but the first is starting with a business.
Speaker: So having business acumen, understanding value chain, ah revenue drivers, the capabilities behind and how they are organized to understanding the org and the talent. um Which capabilities drive value? How are they organized? What are the challenges whether it? What's the workforce looking like? And where are the strengths in that? Where are the challenges with that?
Speaker: Strategy as a third part, um really identifying and leveraging the drivers for change and impact on the business. That comes with which talent do we need? How do we organize it? What is the culture, leadership behavior? So what are the measures in order to drive impact on the business?
Speaker: um Influence, I think, is important. So stakeholder management, um working with data, we have data seminars because that's what ah business leaders talk. That's their language. Storytelling.
Speaker: Driving change and communicating, i think, is important for a business partner. And then collaboration, because the levers or um the domains um which you know you need as a business partner in order to drive the impact on ah on the business a business are manifold. You have TA, you have COEs, then even operations, I think, can used strategically.
Speaker: um So collaboration is important to set up the HR programs that you need, sync central programs with local needs. And that's, again, allowing me a bit of a derail.
Speaker: ah Sometimes a business partner role is expected just to execute, implement what is centrally defined, which is not my view. So that's why I'm saying the central programs should be synced with local needs and the business partners, ideally, are able to and inform their design of the programs. Yeah.
Speaker: um And then last but not least, skills. So what skills a business partner should bring? So adaptability, because there's ah every day is different. So being able to flex, um but also to people, um because every situation is unique.
Speaker: ah Connected thinking, so connecting the dots, understanding how and it it um an apparent detail is connected to other things. And if I move this part, what is happening? Because we're working with systems.
Speaker: Foresighted thinking, logic and deduction. So really understanding if this and this is the situation, then what is the right approach? Analytical thinking and building relation. And I think this partnership element, the relation, at least to me, as super important.
Speaker: Because you can do a business partner role technically perfect. But ah ah magic happens if you're really a partner. And for that it takes two.
Speaker: So I partner best ah with a business leader. We see the value of an HR perspective, um invites me to challenge, to evaluate something from ah from my perspective, from my expertise.
Speaker: And it's rather sharing about the business and not telling. so But yeah I think it's ah it's important that every ah person in a business partner role learns about themselves, what works for them, what not, where they thrive and where not, and then go for that.
Speaker: Now, you can't always choose your partner sometimes it changes. You'll start it in a role, then the management changes, and then um you adapt, right? And you make it work. But I think the partnership element is important.
Speaker: you know Thank you so much for the wrap up and have a great day. Thank you for having me. That was fun. Thank you very much.
