Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
71. Moving Forward Doesn't Mean Moving On- With Andy McCall
82 Plays4 years ago
Andy McCall is an international Self-Published Author of the book
"Pigtails and Steel", which can be found on Amazon. He is an Elementary School teacher as well as a High School Football coach. But the most important role he has in life, is being a dad and a devoted husband.
In this podcast we talk about his first born, Penelope Clair, she is his Why! Penelope was the light of his life. She had many different special needs, from Polymicrogyria, seizures, Schintzel Gideon Syndrome, and ultimately cancer, but that did not define her. Those were just parts of her that they went up against every day. Her cancer diagnosis was Stage 4 medulloepithelioma, a very rare, super aggressive brain tumor at the base of her brain. The tumor metastasized down her spinal column causing lower body paralysis and finally took over her body. During her life we did many things including helping pass the CBD legalization bill in Tennessee and spread awareness for Epilepsy and St. Jude.
In his own words " I didn’t cope very well with Penelope’s cancer diagnosis and initially after she died. I decided to write down my feelings because it was hard to communicate those and I didn’t feel like there was anyone I could actually talk to. I did this in a blog, shared some here and there, and then published it as a book. Pigtails comes from the hairstyle that Ellen did with Sweet P that was my favorite. I got Steel from how strong us Dads are supposed to be. I hear a quote one time that always stuck with me, No matter how strong steel is, even it becomes moldable and able to change when the elements are right."
Andy is now a Member of the Quality of Life Steering Council- St. Jude uses parents as part of the decision making process as end of life and bereavement situations arise and are carried out by the hospital. And also Bereavement Director with the Sunday Morning meetings that other bereaved Dads join in and discuss different topics from daily life to harder questions we all have to face. We have fathers from Chicago area, Tennessee, Florida, and The Netherlands.
Get in touch with Andy McCall: andy@dadsofsteele.com
Dad's of Steel: https://dadsofsteele.org/grieving-dads/
Dad's of Steel Grief Support: https://www.instagram.com/dosgriefsupport/
Contact Kendra Rinaldi to be a guest or for coaching:
http://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Grief and Moving Forward
00:00:01
Speaker
we needed to move forward but not move on and once I think we thought of it like moving forward not moving on was was good for us and you know and I didn't handle it the best you know my emotions got over me because like I said I didn't know how to grieve I didn't even know what you know you really don't even know what grieving is until you actually have to go through it
Exploring Grief through Life Changes
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:00:50
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys.
Meet Andy McCall: Teacher and Bereavement Director
00:01:02
Speaker
I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:13
Speaker
I am so excited to be speaking today with Andy McCall. Andy is a teacher. We were just actually talking that he just got off of teaching virtually, and now he's here on the podcast.
The McCall Family's Grief Journey
00:01:26
Speaker
He's also the author of Pick, Tales, and Steel, as well as one of the founders and, is it director that you are for Dads of Steel?
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, the bereavement director for Dads of Steel. So we will be talking about his grief journey, him and his family's grief journey after the passing of their daughter. And we'll find out all those details as we converse here. So thank you so much for joining today, Andy.
00:02:02
Speaker
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. Anytime I get to be Penelope's dad and talk about these things, it's an honor. Isn't it so awesome that you could still, like, say that, right? And mentioning her name, how much it means, right, to still be able to say her name?
Andy and Ellen's Family Story
00:02:18
Speaker
You know, that's one of the, it's the highlight of my day, highlight of my week, anything when I get to do that. Because, you know, when your child dies, part of that goes with you and you ask that question, am I still a dad?
00:02:31
Speaker
And that always, that was one thing I really struggled with at the first. And now I get to be Penelope's dad and tell her story and our story and what she's...
00:02:42
Speaker
been able to do through me. I love that. And now you're also now a newer dad to twins. So how about we go into your life a little bit, you and your wife, Ellen, and how you guys met and a little bit about your family dynamics and when Penelope was born and just a little more about just the cause of death and then we'll move on from there. How does that sound? Sounds great. Yeah. So Ellen and I have been together for eight years. We actually met
00:03:11
Speaker
at one of the most unromantic places in the world. We met at our elementary school. Our city schools have field day. So, you know, hundreds of kids running around, it's hot, it's chaotic. And that's where we actually met was at field day. And she was
Penelope's Diagnosis and Spirit
00:03:29
Speaker
a school nurse at one of the other schools. And I was at another elementary school in fifth grade at that time.
00:03:36
Speaker
So if the schools had not had a field day against, if your school had not had a field day against the other school, you would have not met the love of your life. It is romantic. I actually think that is romantic.
00:03:53
Speaker
You know, it is one of those things that we laugh at now that how hot and sweaty and, you know, kids and parents and, you know, races and all that. And there she was. So I knew it from the beginning. Yeah, you're gonna be like, I saw her from across the sea of children running the race. From across the field. Yeah, from across the field. Sweat dripping down her forehead as she stood there, handing a child.
Creating Meaningful Experiences with Penelope
00:04:19
Speaker
Oh, that might be the next one. Yeah, there you go. Handing a child.
00:04:22
Speaker
I had to take a child to Band-Aid to put on their booboo. I was trying to write. Yeah, that sounds like. I just started. I just, I just created your intro right there. So just, I'll make sure to send you a copy. Just yeah, you make sure to listen to this podcast over and over so you can write down those. That's awesome. So that's how you guys met. And then how long after you met, did you get married?
00:04:50
Speaker
So oh man, so that's a blur so I'm uh, so it was just about a year we were together for a year to two and then got married and you know decided we want to do you know have children and go from there and So we we didn't have to do IVF For Penelope. We did IVF for both Penelope and our twins. It's funny Penelope was our very first try and our twins were our very last try and
00:05:17
Speaker
So that was, that's pretty special to have there. And it was, but Penelope, like I said, Penelope, she was
Penelope's Lasting Impact
00:05:27
Speaker
our first, so she was born in 7-11-14, 2014. And, you know, she had a medically rare life or a medically difficult life, but we always said that we didn't want her diagnosis to be her definition because there were all these things that were so rare. And we used to joke, we never, she never got,
00:05:47
Speaker
a call for the sniffles or anything like that. But, you know, she had a rare genetic disorder, Schinsel-Gideon syndrome. And we only came to come to find out after she passed away really what it was. Can you repeat that syndrome again? What? Schinsel-Gideon syndrome. And it's a, like I said, it's just a very rare neurological disorder and genetic disorder.
00:06:13
Speaker
You know, she had infantile
Reflections on Grieving Penelope's Life
00:06:14
Speaker
spasms with seizures and she battled those her whole life and neurological delays and physical delays and those things. But we chose a lot of time not to focus on that.
00:06:29
Speaker
She loved the wind blowing in her hair and I think about all the good she did in her short time here. I'm just grateful. How old was she when she passed away? And what words? Do you like the words that passed away? Do you like to say when she left us, what are the terminologies around that? I try to ask this.
Navigating Sudden Loss and Grief
00:06:47
Speaker
I should have asked that even before using that to the guests because there are certain words that sometimes mean more to somebody. Right.
00:06:56
Speaker
Think it's different for me all the time. I think what words I use it you know, I've never really focused on the words as much I think and that that's more of You know, maybe in a different context I'll just say she died and you know, there's sometimes I say she passed away, you know that and that's one of the things that When we talk it really does it sticks out for her for men, especially I found, you know we just sort of matter-of-factly just say, you know, she died and
The Language of Grieving
00:07:23
Speaker
you know, a month before her second birthday. So she died June 9th in 2016.
00:07:36
Speaker
I think just with the situation, it's whatever comes out. It's one of those, I listen to a lot of people in the group world, it is. For some people, it's easier to say passed away. I don't like to think of it sometimes as she lost her battle with cancer because I know how hard she thought and I know how hard
The Power of Sharing Stories
00:07:55
Speaker
we thought. I don't think lost is the right word, but then again,
00:07:59
Speaker
I don't know what the right word is. It's so interesting. Yeah. It's so interesting that, yeah, people say we lost her or we that, you know, everybody has just different terminologies of how they say. And you're right. Depending on the setting or who you're talking to, you might use a different phrase to, you know, explain the fact that she's not physically here.
00:08:21
Speaker
anymore with you guys, but thank you for sharing her. So tell us then, she passed away then in June. She was a little bit less than two years old. How was it for you guys? Well, first off, you had already been grieving probably even those two years. Had you grieved in those two years during her aspect of her diagnosis itself of when she was born?
00:08:47
Speaker
I think we I think we grieve just some of the delays and you know when she was going through her seizures and infantile spasms I think you know that was traumatic the very first time was I was not a medical person all my wife being a nurse she you know she was our rock during all that and I mean I'll give her a
00:09:07
Speaker
you know, props or anything, you know, she got us through a lot of that because like I said, I barely got sick when I was growing up. So I think for me, it was a little bit harder because I didn't understand a lot of things now. I feel like I had a PhD by the time, you know, it was two years into it, but I think a lot of us do, but you know, being that special needs dad and being that special needs community, you know, you do grief and you, you don't really realize you are, but you,
00:09:36
Speaker
you think a lot about those things that she'll never be able to do.
00:09:40
Speaker
or you wonder if she'll be able to do them. And at the time, I didn't know if that was grieving. I didn't know if that was just a loss of hope for a loss of dreams or- That's grief. Any of the loss of hopes, loss of dreams. That's what everybody's been- All the above. A lot of people have been experiencing all this year is that type of grief, a loss of jobs, loss of opportunities, loss of connection, loss, it's all, it's just a different type of grief, different type of grief. It's not the, yeah. Right.
00:10:10
Speaker
Wow. So yes, I mean, you didn't really know what it was at that time that it was actually grieving. Yeah. You know, I think it hit me hardest when, you know, when we found out it was cancer. So, you know, it was, we just woke up on Saturday morning and her legs weren't working. And, you know, with everything she had going on,
00:10:30
Speaker
I didn't think cancer. Cancer never even entered my mind. I figured she had a bad UTI or maybe a seizure might have caused something. So we took her. I actually went back to work. That was a Saturday. I went back to work on a Monday and then I got the call from my wife that it was cancer. It was apparently pretty bad because they wanted us to go straight to St. Jude.
00:10:55
Speaker
From there, that's when we found out how rare and aggressive it was. It was already a stage four medullo epithelioma, which, like I bet, it was a brain tumor. And we didn't have very long. So, you know, from the time of diagnosis to the time of, you know, her death was
00:11:13
Speaker
short. I mean, it was short, but we packed a lot in there and, and, you know, got a bucket. I want to, I want to know what did you do? What were some of these things that you did? Oh, uh, we, we dyed her hair and we dyed her hair. It was, it was, her hair was darker. So we wanted to do purple because purple's her color, but we did it paint.
00:11:34
Speaker
And we got other people, a lot of people in the community dotted pink. And she went on a Jeep ride with us. We're Jeep favorites. So she went on a little Jeep ride and she got on my.
00:11:46
Speaker
wife's side of the family or motorcycle people so she took her first motorcycle ride and it was just we were just what bucket list things can we do and the biggest thing that we did our community got behind us and we you know living in east Tennessee we always wanted to take her to the beach I wanted her to just feel the ocean because she loved the wind blowing in her hair that was her favorite thing you know she really didn't communicate and she didn't have a lot of things but when she was outside and the wind was blowing in her hair
00:12:12
Speaker
you could just tell that she was just happy and so we took her down there and we got to go to the beach and put her toes in the water and the sand and and all that and we we actually cut our trip because we wanted to actually go to the aquarium and do some things but you could my wife knew it was time and when we got back she passed away
00:12:34
Speaker
Very shortly right after we got back from the beach, but we got to do this beautiful and that was I love it because instead of you guys just staying and What do you call dwelling on it? What is that word like just used to coming to that you just lived it to the fullest to have all these memories that you're able to create with her and
00:12:57
Speaker
And that was when we left St. Jude, we didn't know if we had a week or a month or we knew we didn't have very long. And that's how we sort of lived her whole life is we just did it. I mean, we knew there were things that she couldn't do, but there was a lot of stuff that she could.
00:13:14
Speaker
and brought a lot of people together and I mean all those people that helped us get to the beach I mean you know she's part of their story too so so wonderful I love what you're saying that she's part of their story because the amount of I mean I get emotional like sometimes people you know when somebody dies so young you feel like wow they didn't get to do this and this and that
00:13:37
Speaker
But the role they serve in the cycle of growth of somebody else's life is just like...
00:13:48
Speaker
amazing so therefore their legacy continues because that other person that met her and got to be part of that journey's life has already changed and I mean yours and your wife's and everything you've created which will go into has already but just the impact of her young life in other people is already a legacy. Oh it is and I mean you know we chose early on because we knew some things
00:14:15
Speaker
You know, we're going to be different and difficult to be very open. And, you know, like everybody, we had a Facebook page for her and gave her by updates and we're able to do things and.
00:14:27
Speaker
you know, we wanted to share because of how amazing we thought she was. And, you know, like you said, even though she had difficulties, she was still my daughter. She gave me the title of dad and, you know, I wanted to show her off to the world no matter what. Absolutely. That's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that and all those different ways in which you just made those
00:14:49
Speaker
last few months you know so special and memorable and again all those pictures you guys probably have now as a family to remember that that time too. Yeah that's you know and that's one thing I always looked at Ellen and I didn't realize until now and I take that moment to tell dads you know take those pictures you know as many times as you want to roll your eyes to your wife of taking those pictures you know
00:15:15
Speaker
That's all I have. That's all I have are those pictures and videos of Penelope and thankful for Ellen. She did that. And, you know, now my, you know, my camera says storage full all the time because I take every picture of the twins that we have now because I realized that, you know, I'm more in the moment and
00:15:35
Speaker
I can say, hey, I'm remembering all the things she got to do, not the all the things she didn't get to do. And that's a mindset shift that while you're going through it, you don't really think about it. But that's why doing these things and your podcast and being able to tell Penelope's story, I hope that somebody somewhere says, I need to take that picture. Or some dad's like, you know what, let's do that. Because one day that might be all.
00:16:02
Speaker
You know, what you said about the mindset shift is so important because it's true, like you could totally have just focused the other way and thinking of all the things you could have, would have, should have done, all these things. But where is that going to really lead you, right? While if you shift it and you do focus on all the things you did do, it completely changes just the outlook of
00:16:28
Speaker
of your life and then like even just now your role as now a new dad of two-year-old twins like it's probably just completely different and I'm curious to even hear who was Andy prior to like what was your mindset prior to becoming a dad like in other circumstances were you that type of person have you always been the person that looks at the glass half full
00:16:57
Speaker
I think that I lived a pretty before Penelope and before, you know, she, her difficulties and especially her death, you know, I lived, I mean, I want to say a great life, but you know, I had parents that are amazing who, and a family that's close and amazing and great friends. And, you know, they always pushed me to do my best and I didn't have a lot of
00:17:23
Speaker
troubles that I had to focus on that. So I was always pretty positive. I always saw things in a pretty good light because of my situation. I was fortunate to have a lot of great memories from growing up and great memories from things. And I got to live my dream of playing college football. And I got a degree and I'm teaching now in a classroom that I was actually a student. Oh my gosh. That is so cool.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's very weird sometimes you know the first time I walked in that room It was like I wanted to go sit in the back of the room And sitting imagine like I can't just imagine you sitting on one of those little chairs that to think that you were once That little second grader sitting on those chairs, and now you're the teacher of these little second graders It's yeah, it'll blow your mind for sure, but you know you know I was always pretty positive, but It wasn't situational based. It was just
00:18:18
Speaker
you know i i just was and you know afterwards and go with those things now and you know i have it on there with me it was it forced me to cuz yeah you can go either way you can focus on all those bad things and sit at home and dwell on it and like you just said we should've could've but you know instead we were making those memories and you know we were taking her on those trips and doing those things that
00:18:43
Speaker
Now I look back and that's all I think about. I try not to think about those negative things and I don't remember the hospital visits. I don't remember the times. Those aren't the first things that come to my mind anymore. It's all these other things that come to my mind because
00:18:59
Speaker
you know, that's what we chose to focus on. Yeah, there's the saying, right, when you focus on expands and so forth and so therefore that's why you have so much joy to, you know, when you think of her because you did focus on all these joyful moments you got to spend with her and creating those memories.
00:19:16
Speaker
Now, how do you and Ellen talk to the twins about their big sister? We'll talk about that grief period too before you guys became parents again as well, but how do you talk about Penelope? Is it Scout and Maisie? Is that her name?
00:19:35
Speaker
Scout and Maisie. So, you know, they know Sissy Ellipy. They almost can say Penelope, but it comes out as Sissy Ellipy. Her pictures are...
00:19:48
Speaker
I love it. It's like all the one. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name. It's just like a whole new name.
00:20:08
Speaker
You know, we're still learning how to talk to them or, you know, we're still wondering, you know, when are those conversations, you know, obviously them being almost three, they're not having, we're not having deep discussions yet, but you know, they know her, they know what her face looks like. They know the things in the house that are hers or were hers and, and, uh, you know, it's gonna just, she's just going to be part of their life. And when, you know, when we're ready to have that conversation of where she is, you know, you ask where she is now and you know, they'll point to the wall or they'll point
00:20:38
Speaker
you know, to a picture and you know, right now that's okay because they know where they smile when they, when they see your name.
00:20:45
Speaker
We're learning as we go, though. Yeah, those are those are those really tough kind of moments as parents that we don't even like when we're having to explain to our children, you know, like, what do we say, like, to a two year old, like, you know, like, how do you explain, like, where is she? Like, where is she? Like, where's like, you know, do you say in her heart, you know, or like, you know, then your heart or what, you know, and what is age appropriate at each stage of their life, right? As well, like, you start
00:21:15
Speaker
kind of thinking that. I had a, my first pregnancy was a miscarriage, and so with the kids, I hadn't told them that we had had, you know, that they were, they could have probably not even existed, really, probably, who knows, because life would have been a different way, right? But there's a stuffed animal that my son sleeps with, that's a huge cow. He's 13, he's almost 14.
00:21:44
Speaker
Well everybody knows that but he is this stuffed animal that actually My husband had gotten when we found out we were pregnant and so but that's his that's his and that's been his You know since he was born he's the oldest and so one time when they were about maybe five and six something around that or six and seven I forget what age my kids are a year apart was when I said, you know that cow actually was a
00:22:09
Speaker
gonna be somebody else's and that's when I told them and so Because it was something that was it so and it and so it's now They know you know now they know and I say you know you have a little baby sibling And I don't know what the gender was you know and and it's always with you, too You know and you can think of it of your sibling and just kind of send love you know and things like that so I get you every parent will find the right time the right place and
00:22:36
Speaker
and maybe it's not even the right words because you know i think it's it's whatever happened happens and you know i think i think her being just a part of their life you know right now is they know that's her pictures and and her things and and you can tell him too and like i a lot of people know this
00:22:54
Speaker
You know, my friends and things, but you know, I actually have by my bedside and anytime I go speak somewhere, I actually take Penelope's rabbit, which is her. She's got a little rabbit that you can usually find it like hanging out of my backpack or something like that. And it's about my bedside when I sleep. So if he ever feels bad about it, there's also a 35 year old man.
00:23:15
Speaker
My son will never feel bad. All his friends even at school know he has his cows. So it's like, yeah, it's comfort and that's fine. So now let's talk about that period of time. Then you came back from the beach and then you're dealing now with her having passed away.
00:23:37
Speaker
What did you guys do? What did you hold on to? What tools did you have now to navigate this new stage of your grief journey?
00:23:48
Speaker
You know, the first part, I think, for everybody, it's a fog. We were just in that fog of, what do I do? Where do we even go from here? Because as a dad, especially, I lost my wife. When Penelope was born, she was my wife. She was my everything.
00:24:09
Speaker
When she died, you know, I had those questions. What am I going to do? My dad? Do I even go back to work? How do I even look at kids? You know, I'm a teacher and there's all I'm sitting in kids and I'm a, you know, I'm a high school football coach at the time. And, you know, I've got to be all in it for them too. And, you know, Ellen and I worked really well together and, you know, we leaned on each other and, you know, I, she handled it in her way. I handled it in mine and,
00:24:40
Speaker
you know we came together and realized that we needed to move forward but not move on and once I think we thought of it like moving forward not moving on was was good for us and you know and I didn't handle it the best you know my emotions got over me because like I said I didn't know how to grieve I didn't even know what you know you really don't even know what grieving is until you actually have to go through it and and
00:25:08
Speaker
Sometimes I say she's a saint for putting up with me and the things that I put her through and said sometimes, we all do. She had a lot of friends that were close to her and I had some friends that really rallied around me. We had great community support, which I know is not everybody's answer. But we were so open with Penelope, we had a lot of people that wanted to help.
00:25:34
Speaker
And that really helped us because in a way, you know, I didn't have to explain my story to everybody every single time. Everybody sort of knew it. And, you know, that made it a little, that made it comfortable some days. That made it uncomfortable other days. And, you know, I think that just trying and trying to grieve and saying, okay, I want to try to go to the grocery store today or
00:26:02
Speaker
That was what worked for us. For me, not handling it right, I had all these stalks in my head. I had all these things going on in my head and I said, I've got to get them out. Working out wasn't helping. It was helping for the hour I was working out.
00:26:21
Speaker
And then, you know, I did have to go back to work. You know, she passed away. I was just going to say, yeah, I was just going to say what I mean, again, this is one of those sometimes silver linings you guys had already built in this period. At least, of course, it's an eternity to grieve, but at least that to be able to really be in your emotions and not have to be in front of children for your teaching. Yeah. Not having to put that right. Yeah.
00:26:48
Speaker
It was not having that sitting right there. And I had my principal at the time who, he said, you take that time. You don't have to explain to me that if you need a couple extra time. But it was best for me to go back because I found out the more I sat here, the more I, like you said earlier, dwelled on those emotions and it wasn't helping me. And then I started writing. So I started writing my,
00:27:19
Speaker
thoughts down and you know not that I'd written very much before but you know just like anybody but I was like man you know this is how I got it out and when I wrote things down I never read them again and a couple people
00:27:34
Speaker
I put a couple on Facebook there through a blog. We sort of started that because people were still wondering how I was acting. So I put them in a blog, and like I said, I still never read them. And we eventually turned that into the book, Pigtails. Now, did you read it? Did you read it to publish a book? Did you read it? I still have not read my book.
00:27:57
Speaker
I've not read, I know what's in it a little bit, but with my wife and then two ladies that are very special to me. They're former teachers. They're both retired now. They actually edited
00:28:12
Speaker
my book and then Ellen went back and put the edits in so I didn't have to read it. Let me ask you, because I know the reason I wouldn't necessarily read, but I want to know yours. What is your reason of not necessarily reading what you've written? I am who I am today because of what I went through in that book.
00:28:39
Speaker
and the times that were good, bad, and otherwise. And I, you know, subconsciously, I know what's there. Like I know what I wrote about. I don't know the words that I used, um, or even like the flow or what I wrote, you know, what chapters what I, you know, I don't know any of that, but it's really, you know, I know who I am today and how much better I am because I wrote all that down. And I just don't feel,
00:29:07
Speaker
I just don't feel the need to, I don't feel the need to go back and you know, one of my goals is to go back and read it one day and.
00:29:14
Speaker
And I just see where you're now. Yeah, kind of just see that journey in those pages. You see that journey and that growth probably by each one of those entries, because if they're kind of like blog entries or journal entries, you would see that growth. Yeah, I understand in my perspective sometimes, like even when I listen to the podcast to be able to edit, it's very hard not to judge myself as I'm doing, you know,
00:29:40
Speaker
So I'm like, oh, I interrupt it. Oh my gosh, my laugh is so fun. So I try to skim through it. Because if I was just focusing on that, who knows if this podcast would even be out. Because that's my reason of why I would... You know what I mean? Because it's so hard. I would judge myself. And I think it's because of
00:30:04
Speaker
the grief journey that I've taken now and what I'm doing now, actively grieving and talking to other dads and actually putting my feelings out there versus trying to deal with them on my own and just putting them on paper.
00:30:17
Speaker
I would look at myself going, what were you doing, man? Like, why? But you know what, Andy? I have to say, though, that it's still, I think, very, you might have thought like, oh, why didn't I share that and just write on paper? You're still getting it. Imagine if you had not even put pen on paper, what would have happened to those emotions? Like, it was still one step further than a lot of people do. People sometimes don't even talk. Right.
00:30:45
Speaker
And actually going to the topic of men, in which I am just so excited to get to this topic, too, of you sharing about your bereavement group, because it is focused in the men, is the fact that in general, like women, you talked about Ellen having a few of her friends and things like that. Women, we tend to talk about our emotions all the time, right?
00:31:04
Speaker
all the time. That is just what we do. Men, and this is generalization, FYI, I'm not trying to stereotype, but it's a, you know, in general, that is how it is kind of societal, society is kind of built. So therefore it is different for men to just call a buddy and say, man, I'm feeling this, this way right now, right? So
00:31:26
Speaker
How did you end up then going from Andy, the one that would write on the paper all his emotions to now Andy, the one that is now a bereavement director for Dads of Steel? That's a big thing right there. Almost all the credit does go back to St. Jude. That's where sort of my true
00:31:54
Speaker
Taking that next step in grief, you know happened to me as st. Jude I'm part of the quality of life steering council and a parent advisor a brief parent advisor and you know, we help and we help with the quality of life and the palliative care and You know, I started the stay in touch program that dr. Clark looks over and I
00:32:18
Speaker
you just reach out to other parents that are going through the same thing and you know whether it's an email whether it's a text so it started out you know it started out in baby steps you know is and I was like I want to do something because of what St. Jude meant to us and what St. Jude you know even though we weren't there for very long and obviously we were part of the 20% not the 80% that
00:32:41
Speaker
You just feel it when you're down there. It's just a different feeling. And we knew we wanted to give back and try something, so I said, yeah, I'll reach out to a couple parents. And I had some successes. Some were moms, a couple were dads. And I was like, man, this feels really good. Even just a text back saying, oh, thanks for reaching out. I needed to hear a good thought or something.
00:33:08
Speaker
And I, you know, it felt pretty good. And then I took the next step and Dr. Lisa Clark said, you know, would you like to join our student council and do just a little bit more? And, you know, and that's when I started telling Penelope's story. And the first time I don't even know if I made it past saying her name to a group of people that had never, you know, heard her name or heard our story or anything like that. But when I got done, it was this,
00:33:36
Speaker
you know the proverbial weight off of your shoulders and i i couldn't explain it i sat there and i was like this fee you know that was that was the first time i told her story to strangers people that had no idea and they were so interested to hear a dad talk about his experiences it's like you know i never look back i was like you know it helped them because they heard a dad talk about bereavement in their end of life and all that for me
00:34:07
Speaker
I was like, I feel so much better. Like, when can I do this again? I, you know, I told her, I said, you started something crazy because, you know, when, when can I talk again? When can I tell my story? Yeah. And, you know, they, they gave me that platform to talk and, you know, a couple of different, you know, atmospheres. And then I reached out to some colleges, some local colleges and said, Hey, you know, I'm a bereaved dad. I'm a cancer dad. I'm a former special needs dad. You know,
00:34:34
Speaker
You know, in medical care, a lot of things are going to that family-centered care thought. And I said, you don't hear from dads too much. I'm a dad. I'd love to talk to them and answer their questions. And of course, I get to tell Penelope's story, and I get to be Penelope's dad. So I saw that value, and I found my why again. I found that why. You can see it. I mean, you know, we're on a podcast, and you can't see it with my face lights. I can see you, because we're seeing each other, but the people, yes. Yeah, my face lights up.
00:35:03
Speaker
Well, I just have to say, your face has been lit up the whole time, by the way. You just have the, you can see, you know, they say the eyes are the portal to the soul, you know. Is that what it is? Is it eyes or is it smile? Now I don't know. But in yours is both. You have both. I have both. I know I have both of them.
00:35:25
Speaker
you know and i you know i found with it nobody told me this when i was going to go talk to some doctors at st jude or you know give a give a speech at a college you know nobody told me that that's when i got to be penelope's dad again and i realized that i said man i thought i'd lost that forever when she died i didn't ever think i would get to say
00:35:48
Speaker
You know, I'm Penelope's dad. And that's where I start off every time I talk. And that's, that's what I get to say. And the power in that is unbelievable. And you felt what was never going to happen again just happened. And like you said, you're, you're hooked. And it's like, anytime I can talk about it, you know, her or give insight to what I went through, whether it was right, wrong or otherwise.
00:36:13
Speaker
you know, there's power in those stories. And I love hearing everybody else's stories because you pick up those little things that maybe they did or tried or part of their story that lightens my path just a little bit. And then, you know, cause like you said, this grief road, this grief journey is a dark path. And I think about it every time that I get to do these things as Penelope's dad, it brightens just a little bit every single time. And you know, and it,
00:36:42
Speaker
Whether I'm on the receiving end of hearing somebody or actually giving the talk, that's where it's at. Being able to share my book and those thoughts and somebody reaching out to you saying, man, I went through that same thing or I thought those same things or
00:36:58
Speaker
It totally changed my mind. That's Penelope still working. That's her still working through me and me being able to keep her memory alive in somebody else's. That is so powerful and so beautiful. It's true. It's like in the journey of helping others in their grief journey by you sharing your story, you end up helping yourself. It's kind of like you're shining a light, like you're just saying, that little glimpse of light, of hope of somebody that may be just starting their grief journey.
00:37:27
Speaker
themselves and saying, oh, wow, this person has been, you know, a bereaved dad for what now, almost six years? Am I counting right? Almost six, five years. 2016. Yeah, five years. It's going to be five years. You see, I'm like, yeah, didn't you just teach math this morning? Like, I sometimes think I have to go back to learning the some of the math ways they do now, the new math that I didn't learn, that new math that my kids
00:37:55
Speaker
You know, Lord. So it will definitely make it easier. I have to count with my fingers. But in that journey, right, like when you are shining then that light on somebody else's journey that is just starting, of showing them how you moved forward with your grief,
00:38:15
Speaker
and still are now shining light on others, and then also light's a light in your own life, right? So it's a beautiful, I don't know, I think that, and I believe in God and stuff, so I really feel that God made helping others feel so good so we could just serve others more, you know what I mean? Like that it feels so good, right? So that's beautiful.
00:38:42
Speaker
Now, tell us about then Dads of Steel. Is Dads of Steel then what was created because of you helping then with St. Jude in the St. Jude Hospital? Is that how Dads of Steel was created? So Dads of Steel is actually completely separate. And so St. Jude is my one branch and that's my forever family. Once a St. Jude parent, always a St. Jude parent.
00:39:09
Speaker
That sort of got me into everything and getting my book out there and putting me out there where I felt comfortable talking. So Dave Steele actually founded Dads of Steel as sort of a memorial to his daughter who had passed away, Aubrey.
00:39:28
Speaker
And, you know, Dads of Steel is a community of fathers that are there to, you know, just uplift being good dads and being, you know, being there, being present, you know, committed, connected, and courageous. You know, that's their three words right there. Say them again. What is it again? Committed, connected, and courageous. And it's just, you know, it's just a positive atmosphere, you know,
00:39:54
Speaker
he on Facebook and social media they're highlighting good dads and you know whether it be a fit dad or whether it be reading to you know reading to your kids or you know those feel-good stories but you know part of you know his story is losing his child and losing Aubrey and you know it is based in Chicago so they're in Chicago and I'm in Tennessee and
00:40:18
Speaker
You know, they had a few dads that sort of met and connected, you know, sort of through Dads of Steel and sort of what they was doing. And he met some other guys, Don and Sam, and you know, they're all from the Chicago area, but.
00:40:30
Speaker
I think I really think it was me that I was either searching pigtails and still maybe on Google, or, you know, I was doing something because that's the name you were going to put because that's the name you were going to use for your book so you're kind of googling to see if it existed already or I was just I was just looking things up I think I had already at that time I think we had.
00:40:49
Speaker
Cause I self published. So I think I'd already published it and maybe I was just Googling to see like if it came up, you know, you know, does my book come up on Google? We all Google our name, right? We all Google our name. Right. You know, you do. It's like, you know, we all do it, you know? And, uh, and I think, you know, they, dad's a steal and there was an extra E at the end of steel. And I was like, Oh, what is this? And I think I clicked on it and.
00:41:15
Speaker
just looked at it, and I was like, oh, that's pretty cool, and checked out his thing. And I saw a picture of where he posted about Aubrey and Aubrey Violet, and his thing was purple, and our thing was purple. And I was like, oh, there's something here. And we connected somehow, whether it was to a DM or something. And he said, yeah, man, we meet on Zoom. We've been meeting just a bunch of dads. It's nothing formal or anything like that.
00:41:44
Speaker
And that was the hard part. It was like, do I really want to talk to another group of dads about losing a child? That's the setup that everybody has. Do I even want to do this, take that first step? And I did. I clicked the Zoom link, and I met these guys online. And there were some guys from Chicago. There was nobody from Tennessee. There was a guy, Robert from the Netherlands, who was on there. I said, what have I stepped into?
00:42:14
Speaker
within the first 10 minutes of talking like I just feel like these are my people like these guys know what it's like and we all lost our children a different way in different circumstances and but we all get it and we met you know we met pretty much every sunday on zoom and you know it wasn't good not that it was not going anywhere but we were just you know just talking and just talking about our weeks and
00:42:42
Speaker
You know, I felt pretty strongly. I was like, I want to do this. I want to help. And I just asked Dave. I just sent him a text or an email. I said, man, would you care if I just sort of led this a little bit? It's sort of what I do at St. Jude. It's not my exact wheelhouse. You know, I'm not a therapist. I'm not a counselor or anything. You know, I'm just a dad like hell. But I've had a little bit of training at St. Jude Transits and all these things. And I said, let's just try it out.
00:43:11
Speaker
You know, we come up with a topic and we all talked and we had a couple more dads join. I knew another St. Jude dad and he joined and met another guy and he joined in and, you know, it just sort of organically grew to this tight knit group. And, uh, we just sort of said, you know what, let's make this official. And, you know, dad's a steel grief support, you know, came under the dad's of steel umbrella. And.
00:43:36
Speaker
You know, we got the Instagram and you know, like I said, I'm not a, I'm a teacher. I'm not a social media person. You know, I had to learn, you know, some of those things and getting our name out there and you know, cause grief is hard and dealing with grief alone is even harder. And a lot of us dads, you know, that's how we felt because like we talk about it every Sunday. We talk about a topic, you know, like we were talking about friends, you know, this past month and
00:44:02
Speaker
All of our stories, like we can all say, we can all nod our heads and go, yeah, man, I know exactly what you're talking about. Whereas when we were going through it, you didn't feel like anybody else in the world would do what you were talking about. And just to hear, or even see that head nod of another guy going, man, I feel you, like, wow, like that, you know, we can talk to, you know, I can talk to Ellen or I can talk to, you know,
00:44:30
Speaker
anybody else but when you sit there and talk to dads and we realized how powerful it was for a bunch of dads to actually talk because like I said we don't share it we don't record it anything that's said in there you know we it's an understood thing of hey man
00:44:45
Speaker
You know, we're going to keep it in here and you say what you need to get it out and we're good. And there's so much power in that that after you take that first step, you know, you want to take 20 more. It's like, I, you know, it's a highlight of our week now. So that's a still came, you know, our, our connection with Dave and Don, you know, Don's the president of dads is still right now. And you know, I feel like I just met them for the first time about, I was just going to ask if you guys have met in person.
00:45:15
Speaker
We did. They drove down, they were escaping the Chicago winter, the negative temperatures. It was cool. And they were like, we got to get out of here. And they just drove down to Tennessee and we met and had a good long weekend. And like I said, I already felt close to them just because of our stories and just being there for each other. We spend a lot of time on there just talking about our weeks and what we feel anxious about. And we're a sounding board for each other. Whereas a lot of men,
00:45:46
Speaker
Yeah, you have your friends, but what do you talk about? We're talking about sports. We're talking about current events. We're talking about, you know, other things. You're not talking about your actual, like, feelings. And that's hard. But once you do it once and you're like, man, I feel so much better, like, or something I'm going to feel anxious about, you know, whether it was coming on a podcast and actually talking about dad's is still like I talked to him on Sunday.
00:46:09
Speaker
And everyone of them was like, man, you can do this. Just be real and speak from your heart. And that just gave me that courage to do that. They're my biggest cheerleaders and biggest fans, and we're there for each other.
00:46:24
Speaker
That's awesome. That is and what you said of creating this other group of friends with that commonality of where you could talk about your grief journey because some of your other groups of friends
00:46:42
Speaker
You could probably not share the same things, right? So you mentioned that, for example, that was one of the topics you might have shared out a lot within your group that a lot of your friend dynamics change after Penelope died. Tremendously, they, you know, I actually now, you know, I had a great bunch of guys that were there for me every step of the way and.
00:47:10
Speaker
after Penelope passed away, that's hard. As men, we're not meant to deal with our emotions. We don't deal with our emotions anyway, and we don't talk about our feelings, but I saw us drifting apart, and not because anything that they did or I did. It was just life, and I had to figure out how to do things.
00:47:32
Speaker
You know, like you said, no, nobody wants to be part of this club. Nobody wants to be part of the breed parent club and the breed dad club. But once you find those guys who are also part of this club and you just have that connection that you didn't have with anybody else, you know, the guys that I have now that are around me and
00:47:54
Speaker
my inner circle here now are amazing, and I can talk to them about things. And they will listen to anything that I have to say, but there's still that point that we reach that they just don't understand, nor do I want them to understand that. But that's what I think a lot of us men are missing, or we might be able to tell a little bit of our story or tell a little bit about how we feel, but there's that limit that we hit.
00:48:24
Speaker
that we really need to have something else there to help us work through it. We might be able to talk about it, or we might be able to mention it, but we can't actually work through it if you don't have people who understand exactly what you're going through every day.
00:48:39
Speaker
That was so beautifully how you explained that, yeah, because you have to still go through it. Yeah, because you can have friends that are the ones that you hang out with that make you laugh, and you're part of your, because grief also has laughter. Grief also has moments of just mindless watching TV. Grief can also look like going to a sports game. Grief can look many ways, and your friends can be there for those parts. But in the actual, probably processing some of these emotions, and that part of your journey,
00:49:08
Speaker
friends that maybe have not gone through something similar to you, again, they can only help up to a certain point in that grief journey. And so having these kind of support groups have been that lifeline for you.
00:49:26
Speaker
You know and it's in they are and they're there for me, you know, if I if they see me down, you know, they they ask hey man You want to go do this or you know, you come over and you need to talk and and they're there like you said They're there for you in all those aspects that you do need whether it is, you know mindlessly talking about something that's going on or you know watching the game or anything like that, but I
00:49:50
Speaker
I realized that I needed more when I wasn't dealing with things right. And that takes a lot of self-actualization there to say, hey, I'm not dealing with this right. And it took me screwing up a few things to realize that. And then once I found how to talk about it and other men that did understand it, it was like, man,
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah. Why didn't I do this sooner? But I think too, you've got to, that's part of the journey. I was just going to say the same word. It's just part of it. It's the same with children, right? As parents, we will not necessarily parent right every single time. We will make mistakes as we go along. It is part of that journey of even parenting.
00:50:38
Speaker
And the same thing goes with grief. There's no right or wrong way of grieving. Each part just comes to each person as it goes. And you even mentioned you and Ellen had different ways of navigating your grief as well. So also coming to that understanding that those around you who are also grieving the loss of the same person will grieve differently.
00:51:02
Speaker
and being understanding to that is also important. So there's just so many different layers of grief that, yeah, there's no right or wrong. There isn't, you know, it's like we won't, you know, healing's not linear. We want it so bad to be linear. I want to get from point A, you know, in Penelope died to
00:51:25
Speaker
not that life will ever be the same, but I gotta get back, you know, when's this A to B gonna happen? And, you know, there's all those, whether the five stages of grief, and there's all these labels people put on it, but I'll hit those five stages before, right? Like, I mean, that's like, you know, but that's when all that's out there, you know, when you don't have somebody to talk to, you're reading these things, you're trying to figure out, okay, well, I'm angry, I need to,
00:51:53
Speaker
I need to go to acceptance or something like that. Whereas when you're talking to another bereaved dad, he understands why I've lost my cool in this situation. But he also has the understanding to say, all right, man, next time, what are we going to do?
00:52:14
Speaker
anything that he says, right, wrong, or otherwise, I'm going to take in and now I've taken that to heart. Whereas reading it or hearing it from a therapist is no less valuable, but it just didn't resonate with me as much.
00:52:31
Speaker
dad as a father than, you know, maybe it did with somebody. It's like somebody that's already been through the trenches of it. Somebody already went through it and they're, you know, they're sharing their own journey and what's helped them. It's very different than when you're reading, maybe just the, again, just the therapy book of ABC, but what, you know, this step one, step two, step three, that doesn't mean anything to me personally, but.
00:53:00
Speaker
And it's a great place to start to sort of understand, but then like you said, you hit those five AB. And then you're like, now what? And then you're like, now what do I do? Like, okay. Like, where am I supposed to go now? And, you know, to hear another dad say, yeah, man, I felt that. Like, I did the same, you know, like I said, it might not be the same situation might not be, you know, he got mad at the grocery store when I got mad at school, you know, whatever it was.
00:53:26
Speaker
You know, all of our stories are different, but the commonality is, you know, I know he, like you said, I know he's been through it and I know he understands me and he's not going to judge me for, you know, for losing my cool, but he's going to help me get through it. And we say that about Robert all the time.
00:53:43
Speaker
Robert being from the Netherlands, they are very direct and handle things a lot different than we do, even I say here in the South, but here in America. And I've learned so much from him about being direct and taking control over the situation and changing my mindset even more from learning every day in this group journey.
00:54:05
Speaker
You know, he does it. He's my spirit animal. Like I think of Robert all the time when I get that animal. He's your spirit animal. Robert. He is. He's like, I love that. I'm like, is he okay being your spirit animal? He's just your spirit. You know, it's like, he's my, he's my go-to and he's helped me and like,
00:54:31
Speaker
I would have never had that. I would never have, if I hadn't have said yes to this group, you know, I've never would have even heard some of those ways of dealing with it. And we have a guy, you know, that's also a St. Jude dad who joins in, you know, outside of it. And, you know, he's newer in grief and he's hearing us, you know, I'm five years out. We have got seven years out or, you know, 15 years out. And
00:54:56
Speaker
He hears us, you know going through these and he's like man, you know, I think you know, I feel ready to handle this now because just because you all are going back and forth and like I said, we don't agree on everything and you know One of them will say something. I'm like, you know, that didn't work for me but this did and we just but it's okay, you know, it's all like I said, I
00:55:17
Speaker
It's just giving those examples and being there for each other. That's wonderful because it's basically like by hearing different people's perspectives. I mean, I say this even with the podcast. Somebody's listening to the podcast and they'll relate to one particular person's journey more than somebody else's journey, right? And they'll take some nuggets from this episode, then another episode, and then they can build their own toolkit. So the same thing happens in the bereavement groups like that because you're hearing
00:55:47
Speaker
Oh, this person that's been through it for five years, this has worked for them. I'm more like this type of personality. I think I'm going to use these tools when I am confronted with this situation, because these are more like the type of tools I need. Somebody may use prayer, meditation as their tools. Other people might use journaling, writing books, whatever it is, going to bereavement groups. So there's just so many different tools, and everybody can just use what works for them.
00:56:16
Speaker
Try them all, see what falls. And join us next Sunday and tell us about your successes and your terrible fails. I'm the bereavement director, but I ask as many questions as I tell stories. I'm like, this is getting ready to happen. How do y'all handle that?
00:56:41
Speaker
And we're just, because we feel so comfortable with each other, you know, we can be honest. And, you know, there's those times where we need to be starting with each other. And there's those times where we're like, you know, man, holler at me if you need me. And, and I think like you said, just having that toolkit of all those different perspectives is
00:57:03
Speaker
It's made me a better man. Like those men have made me a better man. And you have to them, and you've been that to them as well. Now tell us then, how can people, how can men join, how their dads join if they want to join Dads of Steel, as well as giving us then some information as to, and I'll put this information in the show notes, but if you want to share how they can join these conversations.
00:57:31
Speaker
So, you know, we're on the Instagram. So Instagram is d o s grief support. And you know, we're trying to stay pretty active on there. And we have a lot of people we connected, you know, we connected through there. And you know, and even like I said, even if we're not
00:57:45
Speaker
The best place on Instagram for somebody, you know, we might tag somebody that is, you know, we're all in this together. And, you know, we're, we're all in this to help each other. And, you know, Instagram's our first or email, you know, my email is real simple. It's Andy at dazstheel.com. You said it has an E after the outlet. Yeah. Yeah. So S T E L E. Um,
00:58:10
Speaker
And you know, our website, that's still dot org, but there's a grieving tab. There's a grieving dad tab and we're building that resource page, you know, even as we speak and changing that, but on there is a Google form, uh, content. So it's just a real simple, you know, you know, maybe you're a dad who you just want to reach out and just see like, Hey, you know, this might be for me. This might not, you know, we have an email contact. We have a phone, you know, however you want us to contact you, or even if you're.
00:58:38
Speaker
You know, a relative or a, you know, a, a wife of somebody who, you know, just want to reach out, you know, that that's there too. So, you know, the, the website will have that Google form and they can reach out anyway. And like you said, it's, you know, we're not here to push anything on you or I'm not going to, you know, fill your inbox or anything with.
00:58:58
Speaker
newsletters and mail, you know, I just want y'all to know that, you know, we're here for you when you need us, you know, because everybody, it's going to be different for everyone and every dad's different. And whenever you're ready to take that first step, we're going to be here and, you know, we're going to bring you in. And I promise that, you know, just like the rest of us, five to 10 minutes in, you're going to realize that
00:59:19
Speaker
man you know these guys get me because we we all do. You said something so key when is when it's which is that whenever you're ready because it doesn't mean that the day after somebody's passed away that's the first thing you're thinking of let me go and find a bereavement group
00:59:35
Speaker
Sometimes it may be a year, two years down the line, something comes up, like a first anniversary is coming up or a first birthday, and you're not knowing what to do. And that's when you're like, whoa, I really do need people to talk to. So yeah, timing sometimes is what makes it possible for people to reach out.
01:00:00
Speaker
Right. And you know, like I said, it could be an event or it could just be, you know, let me check out their Instagram and you know, we have, you know, there's times where some of the men join and you don't even have to talk. You know, you don't have to, you can just listen. And sometimes that's as powerful of anything as you don't have to turn your camera on. You know, we're not going to force you to talk or share your story. You know, sometimes it's good just to listen to other dads.
01:00:23
Speaker
and say, oh, OK. And then maybe next time, if it's for you, you know, we're still going to be there every Sunday. Or if I need to reach out on a different day, you know, that's what I'm here for. I'm just I'm just here to help. We're just dads helping. What a great resource and what a great service you do. And now for pigtails and pigtails and steel, am I saying it right? The name of the book. OK. Yeah. For your book, then how can people access your book? Where can they buy it?
01:00:51
Speaker
So you can just search on Amazon. So you can search for it on Amazon and just type in pigtails and steel. And it's just regular steel, no E at the end. And it will come up. And what we do, any proceeds that I get off of that, I self-published, we self-edited, we did all that.
01:01:06
Speaker
you know, anything, you know, which we don't make much, but we give back in Penelope's memory to St. Jude. So, you know, that goes back to us and then we put it right back into St. Jude or, you know, maybe put it into a Dads of Steel, something where we can reach out to even more dads. Paying it forward, paying it forward. Andy, are there any other few words you'd like to say before we close off this conversation?
01:01:30
Speaker
I think the biggest thing is just knowing that we're out there. Whenever you're ready, we're here. We say it to each other all the time that you feel so alone going through this as a dad and you feel your time up trying to stay busy and trying to push that grief down. We all do. We all do those things. But when you're ready to talk about it, we just want people to know that we're here and we're ready to talk about it with you.
01:01:59
Speaker
It's like a friend that's just always there, just waiting. Whenever you're ready, just reach out and they're there. It's like those type of friends, right? Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time and for being back on screen after having taught all day to second graders and having your kiddos probably waiting to play with dad. And in the meantime, you're chatting. So thank you for sharing your journey, sharing Penelope's story.
01:02:27
Speaker
And then Ellen and Scout and Maisie as well with us in this journey. So thank you. Thank you. I got to be Penelope's dad in no time. Thank you Penelope's dad for being on. I should have just called you Penelope's dad the entire conversation and not Andy. Thank you, Andy.
01:02:54
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:03:22
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.