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The American Craftsman Podcast Ep. 21 | Shop Upgrades
39 Plays4 years ago
On Episode 21 of The American Craftsman Podcast, hosted by Greene Street Joinery, we discuss some upcoming shop upgrades.
Beer of the Week (Paradox Brewing Pina Cielo): https://untappd.com/b/paradox-beer-company-colorado-skully-barrel-no-57-pina-cielo/2323295
Tool of the Week: (Stahlwille 18mm Snap-Off Knife) https://www.kctoolco.com/stahlwille-12965-3-snap-off-blade-cutter-18-mm/
Greene Street Joinery is a custom design & build shop located in Monmouth County, New Jersey. We build multigenerational furniture with an eco-friendly and sustainable mindset.
Inspired and guided by the ideals of the Arts and Crafts movement, we believe in the use of traditional craftsmanship and simple, well-proportioned forms; sustainability and ethical practices; and importantly, taking pleasure in our work as craftsmen to create quality pieces of enduring value.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Setup
00:00:17
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain. All right. Yeah, I've got high hopes for this beer. We'll see. We say that every week, though. Yeah. The only real failure was the waffle. The waffle. At least it wasn't waffles and fried chicken. What was that called? Waffle sauce. Yeah. Worst beer ever.
00:00:46
Speaker
Good afternoon, everybody. Episode 21 of the American Craftsman podcast. Wasn't sure if I had updated that on the top of the sheet.
00:00:58
Speaker
Man, another banner week at Green Street, huh? Yeah, yeah, a lot going on. Yeah, yeah, a whole lot. Yeah, it feels like the mood in general, you know, out there in the world is shifting a little bit, a little bit more positivity, a little bit more openness. I'll say, you know, people starting either it's, you know, the sense that winter
00:01:23
Speaker
even though here in the northeast it's a long time before it ends but you know we got over that january hump more or less february is usually the coldest month around here yeah but we've been lucky it's been more else so i anticipate in spring maybe for those of you who are interested in getting a vaccine that comes up on the horizon yeah
00:01:43
Speaker
And, you know, start to see giving people a little bit more willingness to, you know, shop and do
Set Changes and New Projects
00:01:49
Speaker
things. Yeah. You guys might notice a bit of a set change this week. That's right. This is the the wall we've been working on with John, John Peters and Sauce hinges. So this is actually this door. I won't push it in because then it'll be. Oh, no, it is still open. Yeah.
00:02:09
Speaker
So that's actually a door that goes in and Rob's got one over here that goes, pulls out. Yeah. For your secret rooms. Now I'll crush my fingers trying to close it. I'm gonna stand up.
00:02:29
Speaker
So yeah, this wall is for their new hinges, the 518. Yeah. I mean, I think they've been around for a little bit. They're not, like, brand new. Like, they're already out. But they're the 518 hinges, so you can actually, like, on this one, the trim is attached to the wall, and on that one, the trim is attached to the door, and it can still open without binding, so it's pretty cool. That's the big thing, how it projects the door out of way. It's like a crank hinge, kind of, on a cabinet.
00:02:56
Speaker
Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was a nice project. Yeah, so I think Friday we'll wrap up the video. We'll get this crated up and out the sauce. Yep. Excuse me.
Beer of the Week Introduction
00:03:08
Speaker
Let's not waste any time. Let's get into the beer of the week. Yeah, I'm kind of thirsty. So continue the trend of I like the idea of a one larger bottle of beer and then I'm sure we'll run out of ideas and then... We'll go to another one. Yeah.
00:03:25
Speaker
So this week we have a beer from Paradox Beer Company. They're in Colorado, I believe. Yeah, Divide, Colorado. I wonder if they're by, there's a brewery called Great Divide. This is Pina Cielo. That means pineapple sky. Wild sour ale brewed with pineapples and Ceylon cinnamon aged in wine barrels.
00:03:51
Speaker
and it says paradox fermentation, bottle conditioned. And I think over here it kind of gives you a spiel, yeah. Our ever-evolving mixed fermentation, aging, and blending processes integrate a spectrum of lab-isolated and wild Brettanomyosys, Sacromyosys, Lactobacillus, and Pediococcus.
00:04:13
Speaker
This rare beer honors the relative uncertainty of each season through rigorous quality and testing and ongoing vigilant experimentation to yield an interpretation that could only be produced by us here and now crafted with passion, patience and palate under one ethos unflinchingly wayward. I got a question except for us. Who do you think reads that?
00:04:39
Speaker
Well, if you're drinking this beer, I'm thinking that you might be. They're a clean energy partner certified independent craft brewing and Colorado craft brewing. So this is from 10 23 2017. It's aged on American oak. Nice oak. I like the label there. It reminds me of like a pirate ship and like Day of the Dead sort of thing. Yeah, it's got like a sugar skull.
00:05:02
Speaker
And, um, mash paddles. Those are, that's what they use to stir the mash as they're cooking the beer. Oh, that's cool. It's a common sort of, um, it's what I'm looking for. Like iconography, the brewing. Yeah. Number 57. Whatever that means. Crack it open. We got the bottle opener here from Keith. Two-bit Woodworks. Thanks, Keith. How's the shoulder, Keith?
00:05:26
Speaker
Yeah, I spoke to Keith about a week ago. Wow, that smells sour. Send your glass over this way. Let me move this microphone. Mmm. I like the way it looks. I like the way it sounds going into that glass, too. Yeah, can we get that on the mic?
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah, maybe you can increase the volume in post-production. Yeah. Let us know how that sounded and it did the sound of this microphone moving around. Ruined your ears. Yeah, it's a nice foam on there too. It's got a serious head on it. Yeah. Big bubbles. What's that from? Carbonation?
00:06:30
Speaker
That's some thick looking foam, too. Yeah, the size of the bubbles, I think, has to do with the yeast. Different yeasts make different. Like a champagne yeast, I think, has more fine bubbles. I mean, look at how thick that foam is. Yeah. It's a vigilant head.
00:06:57
Speaker
to say we lose our G rating gonna lose the Disney sponsorship that's what that's what Frank carpenter 1-3 says he says I'm gonna lose my Disney sponsorship going back to my musician days a groupie
00:07:27
Speaker
I've heard that adjective before. Never, never once speaking about a beer. Nice bottle too. It's got the, uh, yeah, the thumb. Yeah. Thumb pour. Nice. Yeah. Where are you? There you go. A lot of good things come out of Colorado. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers to you.
00:07:55
Speaker
You gotta get through this phone. I don't even know if I got to the beer. That's crisp. Wouldn't you say? I could definitely taste some pineapple. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah, I like it.
00:08:23
Speaker
Got a little funk to it. Yeah. Yeah. Plus it's really cold. We stuck it in the freezer. I have foam all over my lip. Well, as it does every week, that leads us into the tool of the week. Yeah. What do you got this week?
Tool and Workwear Discussions
00:08:38
Speaker
Well, I have this new razor knife. I wanted to go for something a little bit heftier, a little bit more, you know,
00:08:48
Speaker
easy to hold for for putting pressure on so we got this how you say it's stall wheel or stall while yeah it's stall while maybe I don't know it's German yeah it's an 18 millimeter razor knife you know with the the the breakable blades you replace them by you know just snapping off the tip it's got a little lock feature here
00:09:11
Speaker
And this casing is aluminum, so it's like this, you know, two piece cast thing and it's got like rubber, over-molded grip. It's 18 millimeter, replaces my old Alfa.
00:09:27
Speaker
Which is still good for stuff. It's 9mm, but you see the blade is literally half the size. And this is cool because it weighs nothing. You stick it in your pocket, you don't even know it's there. You could definitely knock somebody out with this thing. That's definitely a heavy duty tool. It weighs a half a pound maybe.
00:09:50
Speaker
I like it because you could lock the blade pretty easily you know once you get that muscle memory going about which way does you know the things you want it to. Yeah. And if I wanted to get a new knife also because it fits into my apron better.
00:10:09
Speaker
you got some space to fill up yeah well this one this one was so tiny it would literally slid through the slot that i had yeah reserved for the knife you know because there's no bottom on it yeah well you went from using a regular um
00:10:26
Speaker
I had that Milwaukee flip out. Yeah, like a utility knife to a smaller one, so it wasn't quite suited to the apron. But this thing's nice. Yeah, that's sweet. It's got real heft to it.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, in my like site work belt, I have that big Stanley, which is like a similar size and weight to that. I like I like having a heavy duty knife for that kind of stuff, cutting shim. Sometimes you cut the fat end of a shim like you really want to be able to bear down on that. Right. And that's what I like the lock for, too. You know, you feel a little bit safer pressing. Yeah, yeah. Kind of going. You also have that really nice knife, too, that for the job site. That's what I'm talking about, that Stanley.
00:11:09
Speaker
Didn't you have a Japanese knife? I've had a Tajima, like a blue one. Yeah. But it was too small. Like the body was like maybe two thirds the size of that. And just like gets lost in your hand. That's what I was thinking of, that thing. Yeah. So it's gone. Well, we're going to give this, you know, put it through its paces here in the shop. I'm pretty confident it's going to be a keeper, but you never know what else. We're a fickle crew.
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah, it takes some time sometimes to find out the nuances and what doesn't work. Plus we're not above just getting new stuff if we find something that's well made. We like to support companies that are either that they're not part of a huge corporation. I mean, it doesn't have to be a cottage industry type of thing.
00:12:03
Speaker
But we like to support smaller company stall wheels, probably, you know, compared to American companies like Stanley, it's probably small. Oh, yeah. But it's a major manufacturer for German stuff. Yeah. And they care. Yeah. You could tell because it's a nice. Exactly. Yeah. That wasn't any more expensive than. No, that's the shocking thing was what, twenty five bucks. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:26
Speaker
It isn't more expensive. And so and it goes to support local workers in that local town. Yeah. And even if it's over there in Germany, it's still the same principle. Right.
00:12:41
Speaker
Nice. Actually I have a little tool, not a tool of the week, but I have these new 1620 pants on. Oh yeah, we're big fanboys of the 1620 now. 1620, we talked about them briefly before, but they're a company up in Massachusetts.
00:12:58
Speaker
So they're a work wear company. They make pants and they make shirts, but they make sweatshirts and jackets, vest. All the material is made in the US. All of the stuff is all the final product is made in Massachusetts. I think the fabric is all coming from North Carolina. They have two kinds. This is called the tweeve. So this is like a super stretch.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah. So I recently got some of the true work, the T1s and the T2s. I thought they were stretchy. This is like maybe twice as stretchy and it doesn't have that swishy sound. Yeah. Yeah. They're still rugged. I mean, I don't know how, but they guarantee this stuff for life.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah, everything is custom hem too, so like if you're short like me and you like to wear a 29, you can get whatever weight size and inch by inch, 29, 30, 31, whatever. So that's really nice. I mean, they're not cheap, but again, it's going back to like the stall wild knife. These are supporting real people.
00:14:00
Speaker
Couple hours north, you know five hours north of us up in Massachusetts. They're buying stuff made in North Carolina Sending it to Massachusetts making it and then send it out to the end user. Oh, yeah, we beat this topic up a little bit But all that money stays in the community and it's good for us. It's good for all you listeners out there It really is
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, like I like those true work pants. They're very comfortable. But, you know, I got them and then I look inside and it says made in Bangladesh and it's like a total and those are $70 pants. Right. Now, granted, these are $200 pants. Yeah. But think about it.
00:14:42
Speaker
The difference in cost between making something here and making something in Bangladesh and just putting it on a boat and sending it here. People just need to think, how much do I earn per hour? What is my time worth? Guaranteed for life, these pants. Your T1s aren't guaranteed for life. And I'm not knocking true work because I have two pairs of true work and I wear them. But I'm just saying, think about
00:15:09
Speaker
Dropping the extra money on a good pair of pants. Yeah, I'm I'm a true convert. So's the wife She keeps saying did you order another pair of those pants? Yeah, my wife actually got me these for my birthdays coming up. We're horrible gifts. So I Opened them a week early. She got me a hoodie, too I had to send it back to exchange for a bigger size but and they actually don't repair stuff. Yeah and they actually like their stuff is so heavy-duty that
00:15:35
Speaker
If people send it back, like they wore it and turned out that they didn't like it or something, they actually will resell. Yeah. They'll take them, repair anything that needs to be repaired, clean them and then sell them. Yeah. They have a used stock. Yeah. They have a cooler name for it than that. Well, I can't remember what it was. I forget what it's called. But yeah, really nice guys. I spoke to Josh. He's one of the owners. Um, talked to him on Instagram a couple of weeks ago. Nice guy.
00:16:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, if you're listening, even if you don't think you're in the market for a pair of work pants, check it out. 1620. Yeah. I think it's 1620 USA.com. Cool. Cool. All right. Tools of the week. Yeah. Yeah. So we're up to the gripe of the week already. That's right.
Nostalgia and Personal Life
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah. Um, you know, today is our recycling day here in, uh, this part of Middletown.
00:16:29
Speaker
pretty good tasting, right? Yeah. And this is this is my petty gripe. Now, we used to have garbage men that would come and you'd see them and you knew them and they manually picked up the pale and in the summertime, we'd wait up early in the morning, we'd give them cards with, you know, money in it and stuff like that. And it was it was a cool thing because
00:16:52
Speaker
Maybe you had something extra, you slipped them a little extra money, you threw it in the truck. But in their efforts to keep driving the cost down, now we have the garbage truck. Boy, the squirrels are going crazy, huh?
00:17:08
Speaker
We have the garbage trucks now. It's run by one guy and like the arm comes off, grabs the can and dumps it in the back. Now, this is my gripe. The the can doesn't always get emptied. Yeah. Like a bag could be jammed in there or something. And then the guy doesn't get out of the truck. And if the trucks kind of fall or midway, they can't really tell by the sound.
00:17:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'd be surprised if they could tell at all. Right. Because they don't know how much garbage you have in there either. So we have to call and say, you didn't pick up the garbage. And because the cans have this little tag on it, like this little electronic thing that tells them that, you know, they came and got it, they say, oh, no, we got it. But if you didn't empty the pail, is it empty or is it not empty?
00:18:01
Speaker
You know, they're not paid to just drive by and try to empty my garbage. They're paid to come take it away. Yeah, it's it's one of those things. It's a trade off for, you know, I guess it's faster. So that means that the truck is can do more in less amount of time. It's running less fuel, less pollution. You know, it's mostly two less guys working. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:28
Speaker
I'm just not I'm not looking at just the financial the like the financial benefit for the company. Yeah, I'm talking just in general Like better for the environment because there's you know, they're not sitting there idling. Well, right So yeah, it's a trade-off between that efficiency and the inefficiency of maybe not all the garbage Yeah
00:18:50
Speaker
So my gripe is with the automated garbage pickup. I want the old thing back. I want my garbage men. I want my garbage men back. That's it. I hate to break it to you. You're not good.
00:19:08
Speaker
You know, you'll be lucky if there's a guy driving that truck in a year. It's just gonna be a Tesla Garbage, hopefully it's a nickel of garbage truck. Yeah I Mean first they take away the cash years. Luckily. They're not totally gone yet. I don't want to check myself out I've and half the time it's you do something. It's like wait for the attendant and then they got over
00:19:32
Speaker
So that's my that's my sub gripe. That's what the cash is. I want the people there. I want these things. You know, listen, I'm 58. I'm going to be 59 is it's tough to adapt to all these changes. Some I'm happy to adapt to. I mean, I I love my phone and I love all this technology that I can, you know, learn the parts that I can learn. But
00:19:58
Speaker
I want the guys and the women back at the position. I like, you know, how's it going today, Marge? Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Oh, did you see that someone such as on sale? Oh, let me go back and get that.
00:20:12
Speaker
Well, all these sort of, I was going to say menial, but it's not a good term. It's not even that. All of these... I don't want to word this without... It's a service job. Yeah, like these just sort of basic service industry jobs have been degraded to such a point.
00:20:31
Speaker
that, you know, the qualifications to have one have gotten so low that now these people are being replaced by a robot by a computer. Yeah. You know, you used to be able to make a living as the cashier shop. Right. That's right. Now you're lucky if you're getting 10 bucks an hour. Yeah, they that's what they did. They drove the wage down to such a point to make that job not really enticing.
00:20:56
Speaker
And it's not even enticing. It's just if you have it, you can't survive. Yeah. So that's what I mean by that. It's like you're going to put in your 40 hours and still, you know, not be getting by. Right. Then you have to have a second job and then. Yeah. Then your first job gets, you know, you're sacrificing the quality of your performance at the other both jobs. Forget about home life. Yeah. Fuck those kids that you got. They don't need to see mom or dad.
00:21:23
Speaker
That's why they're not chill while in school. Yeah, it's a complicated issue. We don't preach on it too much. You know what my gripe of the week is? People that drag their feet.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah. You got something to do and you just don't do it at the expense of everybody else. Yeah. That's the problem with procrastinators. They're so wrapped up in their own stuff that they don't, they don't even think about the ramifications of their actions. Yeah. It must be nice. That's right.
00:21:57
Speaker
You know, quite an inconsiderate position to take, but we can't change the world, can we? We digress. No, yeah. Let's get into these questions. All right. We're going to lead off with Dave again. He had a funny one last week about our workout. It's actually funny. I just started going to physical therapy this week, so I am doing a little bit of working out for my knee. Yeah. David wants to know from DW's Remodeling on Instagram.
00:22:24
Speaker
Did you guys hoard toilet paper? David, we didn't have to because the way my wife shops. And Jeff will attest to this. You go down, we have an unfinished basement in our old house, but you go down there and there is some old wooden shelves and there are more paper towels and toilet paper and batteries of every size. Like a bodega down there.
00:22:53
Speaker
If there was like a cat sleeping on the counter. There was no hoarding needed. If anybody in the neighborhood came knocking at the door and needed a roller toilet paper. Yeah, I think she actually floated me a roller too.
00:23:09
Speaker
See, my wife and I, we didn't hoard toilet paper. We missed the opportunity. It blew right past us. We made it to the point where we were beg, borrowing and stealing to get a roll of toilet paper before we got more. And then we got the most horrible toilet paper ever.
00:23:28
Speaker
It used to be paper towels, but then they repackaged it. Yeah. No, they were, you know, like the kind that you could see through like these paper towels we have here. That's why we have this. We have a center. It's called a center pull paper towel dispenser in the shop, which is. Excuse me. If you ever go to like a public restroom, sometimes they have this kind. I feel like not not all that often. I feel like I've seen them in kitchens and stuff.
00:23:55
Speaker
but it's a roll and instead of pulling from the outside it pulls from the center and It has to be the worst design for paper towels because you pull out about seven Yeah, and the ones that we have are perforated unevenly so you can never pull one off Anyway, that's where I ended up because we ran out of paper towels. We had to buy that it's announced here Yeah, that was a source of amusement that you had that
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, well I put it on like a hand-cut dovetail piece of sapele with Rubio mono coat on it. It looks nice. It does. But that plastic dispenser. I even put a magnet on there so I have the key to get inside of it. Stuck up there. Yeah.
00:24:39
Speaker
So the answer was we didn't really break from our normal routines here. No. You already had a hoard and I didn't have the chance to hoard. No. We still have a stockpile down there. I have more, yeah, I have enough now to get through. I took the bad toilet paper when we could finally get good toilet paper and I stashed that away. Just in case. Just in case of emergency.
00:25:02
Speaker
Look at this next question. That's a good one. Where did you get your apron? That's Bill. Bill builds woodworking on Instagram. That's easy.
Craftsmanship and Tools
00:25:14
Speaker
Bill, we talked about this a lot. I mean, maybe we haven't talked about it in a while, but in one of the earlier episodes, I think we, we, we spoke at length about Calavera tool works.
00:25:25
Speaker
Michael's down in Charleston, South Carolina, and he makes these aprons. They're all made by hand. He's got patterns. He cuts out the leather, does the sewing, makes the straps. He's doing, you know, stonewashing the hardware. Yeah, yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
You know, putting dye on, you know, some of the stuff comes pre-dyed, but putting dye on some of the hides. He's got bison and several different types of, you know, regular, what do you call it, steer leather, cow leather. I mean, amazing handmade aprons. Yeah.
00:26:02
Speaker
You know, they're probably start around two hundred fifty three hundred bucks and go up maybe in the range of four hundred. But well worth it. Yeah. I mean, think about what it takes to make that and how you could possibly be making a profit on that.
00:26:17
Speaker
that's the impression i got when i i mean first off the the experience of buying it i mean we're so removed from things i mean i never had a custom suit made or anything like that my mother was a tale of my mother actually came from systole and was a real old like immigrant kind of
00:26:38
Speaker
skilled worker in that regard so when I was a kid I remember seeing people come in and my mother would literally you know you make the pattern and chalk it all out so there's this experience of having something made for you
00:26:53
Speaker
and it's this apron gives you that experience when you open it up and then Michael of course you've communicated with him through the process and there's a note in there and he he wraps it up in like butchers paper writes a little you know well wish on the front of it seals it with a caliber sticker the care that goes into it that the earnestness I'll say yeah um
00:27:18
Speaker
You have you said yourself. How does he sell them this cheaply? That's the that's the thing It sounds like a lot just like the pants sound like a lot and we don't want to turn into an infomercial But it's it's a issue that's near and dear to us
00:27:34
Speaker
supporting other local craftsmen. And the people at 1620, they're craftsmen. Michael's a craftsman. We're craftsmen. This is the American Craftsman Podcast. We're just trying to encourage others out there to support this type of community effort. And you feel a connection to the thing when you're wearing it. Like these pants,
00:28:00
Speaker
I get a better experience out of wearing them because I know that they were made by somebody six hours north of here. Every time I put on that apron... Yeah, we feel proud to wear them. You go on and you pick the length and what pockets you want. You want no pocket. He's got three or four different kinds of pockets. You can change around the types of straps and the hardware.
00:28:25
Speaker
It's a real custom made to order. It is. He has a list of stuff that's premade, but he made me a couple of things. Yeah. Like this guy's going to kill me. Yeah, you can get a tape measure holder, a ring for a rag. And there's even guys now like guys and gals, butchers, barbers, all kinds of people. I mean, because we use it in more of its truer sense for protection and things like that.
00:28:55
Speaker
But it's quite a fashionable item when it comes brand new. I mean, ours take a beating. Yeah, mine's awfully dusty. They get marked on and all the little things that happen. We don't really take care of them in that way to make them stay pretty. Right. But you can clean it up and oil it and it'll look broken in, obviously. But the leather will look brand new. That's one of the good things about leather is it really takes the conditioning well.
00:29:24
Speaker
It gets better with a yeah does so Calavera. That's where we get our aprons. Yeah. And Michael actually makes like
00:29:35
Speaker
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like the bags that hold the wireless headset things for the NFL. Yeah, he started making a bunch of stuff. Like the Bose headsets that the coaches wear. Michael makes the bags that the guys wear on their hip to hold like the transmitter. And he made tons of masks during all of this. Yeah, so he was actually taking Festool vacuum bags. Michael used to work for Festool.
00:29:58
Speaker
He was taking festival bags and making them into masks and shipping them out all over. He made like, I don't even know, 25,000 masks or something. Yeah. Yeah. So he's a good guy. Yeah. Super down to earth. Shoot him a message on Instagram. I guarantee he's going to message you back. I would say if you're interested in an apron, there's nowhere else to look. Yeah. I mean, it's a unique product. If you think of it this way.
00:30:23
Speaker
Pay a dollar a day for a year. This is how I always look at when I want to buy things. So I want this apron. We'll say it's $365.
00:30:34
Speaker
Would I pay a dollar a day? Would I take one dollar out of my wallet every day and put it on the table and say goodbye to it? To be able to wear the apron for a year? That's a good way to look at it. Wouldn't even blink an eye. No. Because I've had that now for three years or maybe more. Yeah. So it's paid for itself. Yeah. Five times over. With the little piece of wood shooting off the table saw.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah, that was, I mean, it does offer serious protection. I can't tell you how many times I've, you know, fumbled a chisel and it scrapes across or...
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, you could see it on the apron how many times it's protected you. Even just chips coming off of like a dado blade or the table saw, you know, they're hitting an apron instead of hitting your shirt and going through and you get the little splinters that are sticking you in the belly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a convert for sure. And in fact, I used to wear overalls as my go to pants. And then I found these 1620s and that works well because now I'm wearing the apron instead of the bibs. You're not doubled up. Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:41
Speaker
So that was a great question. Yeah, we could talk about Calavero. I know. So I'll read this next one. It's from Miles T. He's one of our patrons, actually. Eat Drink Wine guy on Instagram. He asks, do you guys prefer to have a separate rip and cross cut blade or are you happy to use a combo blade for the majority of your work? Well, we we talked about this a couple of weeks ago a little bit.
00:32:10
Speaker
Maybe it's more than a couple weeks now, I don't remember. It's hard to tell now. Yeah, especially after last week. Last week was like a...
00:32:17
Speaker
We did the podcast three times. So typically we have a we have a combo blade in there. I should say all the time we have a combo blade in there. But I do like the idea of having a rip blade, a crosscut blade and a a plywood blade. Be honest, we're the kind of guys we we want another saw with with a yeah blade in it.
00:32:49
Speaker
That'd be nice, isn't that true remember like those CD players like a 300 just imagine you have one that had different blades That's a cool idea. Yeah, saw stop call me. Yeah Yeah We for practicality's sake and just because we haven't you know, it's another $500 to invest in saw blades we just keep a combo blade in there because we are
00:33:13
Speaker
There's days where we might just be ripping, and days where we might just be cross-cutting parts to length, and days where we might just be breaking down plywood, but for the most part, we're cutting a variety of things in a day. Today, for example, we did all three. We ripped hardwood, we cross-cut hardwood, and we cut plywood, cross-grain, and rip. So it's about convenience and about efficiency, not stopping and changing the blade.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, but for those times where we are let's say when we're in the rough stage where we're rough cutting and then Joining planing and then getting to the point where we're ripping to joint the other side. It would be nice to have a ripping blade. Yeah And you know, that's something that we may be thinking about doing this year But you know for now, it's just a combo blade. Yeah, and they're they're good quality blades. Yeah
00:34:04
Speaker
And a little bit of a shout out. I'll say a little bit because we got our blades back from Ridge carbide. Yeah. We did talk about this last week, but I don't know what version of the podcast made it to air. We sent our blades out for sharpening to Ridge and one of them was a Ridge blade and we said, let's try Ridge. Yeah. Because we're in New Jersey. They're literally 45 minutes north of here in where Linden.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, somewhere in that area. And we said, let's try them. So we sent our forest and our ridge blade up there. Yeah, that other one was actually, I thought it was a woodworker too. It was something else. It was popular tools or something. I think it was one that you got a Monteith. Oh.
00:34:49
Speaker
okay i thought it was the it wasn't the forest no i thought it was too but it wasn't okay unless they sent us somebody else's blade yeah that's funny right it did say berlin would work on it okay so we set him up there and we just kept waiting and waiting
00:35:04
Speaker
And then we called them a couple of weeks ago and turns out they sold the company. Yeah. To this guy Paul who owns Everlast Saw which is a blade maker who was actually he was the guy that was making the blades for Ridge. Yeah. So he didn't know this. Me neither. He bought the company and moved it to Kansas.
00:35:27
Speaker
where I guess he's from. So they had to send all the blades from New Jersey to Kansas. What a time to do a changeover like right we sent him December 15th. Yeah. And
00:35:41
Speaker
So, yeah, we just got them back. It was about about about a month. Yeah. Right. Because December to January. Five. Yeah. Five weeks. Yeah. So thank you, Paul. Yeah. Really nice guy. Spoke them on the phone and they make they make nice looking blades. I mean, if you like rich carbide, they make the blades. So and they make custom blades. So if you have a specific application with, you know, you could change the hook angle and the tooth pattern and all that. Yeah. So that's pretty cool.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah. So we did get our blades back. So we're combo guys. Yeah. You know, like 90 something percent of the shops out there were combo bladed users. You know, what do we got? What's what's up next? Got a question from everybody. John. OK. John wants to know what are you. John Peters, what are you working on now and what upcoming projects are you really excited about? Hmm.
Woodworking Projects and Techniques
00:36:38
Speaker
Well, we're just wrapping up the sauce wall as we call it.
00:36:43
Speaker
We have to do a couple of little retakes for the filming part of it. But the real woodworking part is done where we're building. Well, we don't really know the name of it. It's a secretary armoire wardrobe type of Queen Anne style piece that's going in a Victorian house, which essentially is going to
00:37:11
Speaker
be the cupboard for Miele coffee machine. Yeah, the whole bean coffee system. Yeah. So we're working on that. It's actually a fun project because we decide we're going to do the casework and everything out of solid wood. It's built out of cherry. So every piece except the back, which is cherry ply, is solid wood. And it's it's a lot of fun to work with it. Yeah. It's coming together nice. Sometimes it feels like
00:37:41
Speaker
Not wasteful, but, you know, like the top and the sub tops, they're all solid and they look beautiful, but then we have to cut holes in them for the sink. Yeah, because there's a, was it zip water? Yeah, and hydro tap with this. So there's a font which is basically like a little sink.
00:38:00
Speaker
That's like five inch diameter and then it has a screen over the top of it so you can set your glass and then any water that comes over will go down into this sink and drain right through a regular drain. Like I could see like a more of like a commercial cabinet shop. All these elements would be web frames of plywood. But then you have to get into like face framing and that's not the look of this piece at all. And and the plywood on the you know on the case works just not going to look
00:38:31
Speaker
like solid wood yeah like this top I'm looking at it right over here that there's the base cabinet case we'll call it and then there's a solid cherry countertop that sits on top of that then we have this transition piece that has an angle that steps back to the depth of the upper section yeah yeah
00:38:50
Speaker
now most guys would probably just put a piece of plywood and edge band it two inches because that's all you see not even but it's just easier to use it is all cherry i mean because once you start getting into the movement issues especially with these now you have these glue ups that are 24 26 inches wide they're gonna move back and forth so once you get
00:39:12
Speaker
into that issue. Now, it's it's just so much simpler to do it all in one material, which is solitary. Everything's going to expand and contract in unison. Yeah, you all of a sudden put a super piece, super stable piece of plywood up there.
00:39:27
Speaker
And you have an exploding cabinet. Exactly. So and with the price of Cherry, I mean, yeah, it's let's face it, you know, if you have the skill and the tools to do it, it's it's very economical to work in Cherry right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's only what? Seven board feet. Yeah. That top.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, no, maybe a little bit more. It's probably, you know, two by four. Yeah. One and a half boards, maybe. Yeah. So at ten, let's just say it's ten. Yeah. So including, we won't tell you what we're paying for Cherry, but less than fifty dollars for the for all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and.
00:40:07
Speaker
It's just and it's nice. It's it's nice to work in that in that manner for change and we glued up You know one two three four five. I mean half it almost a dozen things anyway So you might as well add one more glue up and repeat the same thing get some right some
00:40:29
Speaker
Economy of scale with what we're doing instead of adding another process right thing And then then you get a bunch of plywood in there sure cuz if we would have gone and now let's say we wanted To go with the side solid cherry because that's a given that's that's where our first design Element is fixed those have to be solid for the right appearance and everything yep well how are we gonna go to you know like a top and bottom of
00:40:55
Speaker
uh plywood because now all of them are going to have these movement issues so then we have to go to a different type of joinery like a sliding dovetail or something yeah we're gonna have to push all the movement to the back because we have a face frame on the front so it it's actually was easier for us to do it this way yeah um then have to figure out
00:41:16
Speaker
Another method that we're not really that well versed in we're we're good at this. So let's stick to what we know Yeah, it's nice. It's just nice to have a you know, it's basically a solid wood
00:41:28
Speaker
So that's kind of like a little tip, you know, for people. I mean, it's like what we do. There's, for the most part, we stick to what we know and do best and we'll introduce the new and challenging elements in smaller doses. You like, you know, that's right.
00:41:46
Speaker
We won't base the whole project except for that bed chair that's coming up on something we don't really know what we're doing. You know, every now and again we will, but we try, you know, because we do this for a living, so we have to get this stuff in and out of the shop in a reasonable amount of time. Yeah, there's only so much in the budget allows.
00:42:08
Speaker
So, I mean, I guess that segues into the what are we excited about? I'm excited about building those chaise lounges with the event. We're going to be right after this and we'll probably start laying the groundwork for that job next week in terms of getting things in water soaking to steam. And we're going to be building some chaise lounges. I think we spoke about it before for like a luxury condominium apartment. Right. I mean, if they have an indoor pool, they have a spa level.
00:42:38
Speaker
so the entire floor of this high rise is a spa so we'll be making these four chaise lounges at a quartered white oak they have a steam bent back yeah almost like a C shape yeah
00:42:53
Speaker
Like a modern because it's kind of blocky. Yeah, it's uh, but the corners it's got two corners It's like a rectangle with radius corners. Yeah, there you go. You would explain that You know custom upholstered cushions and so that's gonna be cool. Yeah, that's gonna be a lot of fun We're gonna have to make a whole jig, you know, we kind of we goofed around with the concept Yeah, and we have a
00:43:19
Speaker
idea what we're going to do to actually do it for real this time. I've been picking Silent Mill on Instagram. I'm sorry I don't know your government name. I've been picking his brain a ton on the steam bending. He's been doing a lot of steam bending himself and has been for a while from what I understand. So he's been helping me out with some advice.
00:43:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So we have, uh, you know, we've got that mantle coming up, which is going to be a nice little piece about that. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and the cabinetry going out to Samir's place.
00:43:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, we just sent out the samples today for that. So that's a job, the job out in Easton that we've spoken about before. That's going to be pretty interesting, too. So that looks like it's set in stone. We're just ironing out the final details in terms of finish and species and the designs all locked in. So, yeah, I think we're pushing ourselves into maybe June now. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:20
Speaker
There's a lot of stuff that looks fulfilling, we'll say. Yeah, not white shaker painted. We did do more than our share of that last year. We were probably rolling our eyes back every time somebody said they wanted, you know, white painted shaker. Probably. No, we definitely were. Maybe that's that fad has passed.
00:44:46
Speaker
It hasn't. All right. Well, you know, you can't maybe they just realize they're barking up the wrong tree. Finally. They're like, oh, yeah, that's those green street guys. Yeah. What do you mean this shaker cabin? We're the only people that push back to the client when when they tell us they want something. We don't want to do it. You just build it out of pine. We're going to pay it anyway. No.
00:45:12
Speaker
Here's a good one. This is from Brian Hamlet Woodcraft on Instagram. He said, after buying multiple mechanical pencils that cost more than the average person would even think about, have you become a laughingstock to your wife and children like I have?
00:45:29
Speaker
When Brian sent this in, I said, man, you're letting your wife know about these things? You're messing up. That's as you were reading it. That's the first thing that popped into my head. My wife has no idea I spend $30 on a single pencil. Yeah.
00:45:46
Speaker
You got to keep that to yourself. That's that's like my wife thinks that I can't read her. She'll go to Nordstrom's and she go, oh, yeah, I got this eyeliner today. It was, you know, she tries to tell me like how much it was and then she pauses and that right then I know the next thing that comes out of her mouth is a lot. Yeah.
00:46:07
Speaker
It was on sale. Yeah. I couldn't pass it up. So I don't push because, uh, you know, like when I first, when I first got the Calavera apron, it started off as $200 when I told my wife, then, you know, maybe it came out again. It was like, if she sees it and we talk about it, then it's $300. You know, once she'll get the full price, maybe you got to take that to the grave.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, I don't really talk about it. I keep the significant spending under the umbrella of communication. I'll make sure that I vet those purchases just because you don't want that to come back and bite you in the ass. Buying little pencils and stuff like that.
00:46:59
Speaker
Those are easy to hide. Yeah. Plus your wife has a toolkit of her own and she's. Yeah. My wife is a hairstylist. So she I mean, her scissors cost like some of them are like eight, nine hundred dollars. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife's got her little trips into the fashion world that she'll. Yeah. I shot the text over last night. Hey, babe, you mind if I spend one hundred fifty dollars on rasps? No.
00:47:26
Speaker
But I know that it's a push pull, so she's getting 150 for something. Yeah, that's usually how it works. She's flipping through the catalog in her mind right now. But that's okay. Yeah. We're probably more likely to be mocked by other woodworkers who, you know, settle for like the $1.99 Pentel version of... Yeah. I like my Pentel. Yeah. I mean, I have one on a magnet over there. I use it.
00:47:52
Speaker
Those are, those are not $1.99. They're not those yellow ones? No, those are about six bucks. Oh, they are. See, I'm out of touch. Yeah. Yeah, with your fancy German pencils. Yeah. But, you know, I'm a Pika user now. Yeah. Yeah. I still, I got my Pika.
00:48:09
Speaker
They are cool. It's a really cool pencil. Just a little too thick for my... If they made a 0.9 in the same sort of design, I'd be all over it. Yeah, it's easy now. I got the muscle memory for where it is in the apron. I do like the whole holster kind of idea. Yeah, it keeps the tip from breaking off because on the German pencil, I have to wind up retracting the lead so I don't break it.
00:48:33
Speaker
Yeah, because it's it's long. You know, the other pencil I had that notebook that we kind of laughed at the Italian one. The thing about that was the back story on this was I ordered a satanic and mechanical pencil and it wasn't cheap either.
00:48:50
Speaker
And it was called a notebook pencil. Now. I'm thinking notebook. I I don't know what that means Yeah, it turns out it's about like not quite half so about three-quarter the size of a regular pencil It was probably four inches long me four and a half So, you know, it became was like a laughingstock kind of thing. That was that was funny, but
00:49:13
Speaker
And then I don't know if I lost it or if Rich probably threw it away on me because he's been doing to do stuff like that. That pencil was perfect because it was short enough to fit in the bib pocket of the apron and not break off the lead. Like if I didn't have so many
00:49:33
Speaker
Expensive pencils already just fine. I'd be in yeah, I'd be curious about buying another one of those I'm Sam stuck with the the graph gear 500.9. Yeah, you like that one. Yeah, I've been using it for Probably two years straight now. Mm-hmm and I ain't going back now to the you know, the Pentel sharp point nine, which I like which are the yellow ones that you see a lot I Don't know. I like the weight of it
00:50:01
Speaker
the point nine is is the best um middle ground for me between strength and the the size of the line i don't like a fat line yeah yeah well you know i'm i'm still hunting you know the thing is that that rote ring is a great pencil but
00:50:20
Speaker
It's more really for drafting. Yeah. You know, that's really where you want a pencil like that. Because you can get a super fine point on there. Yeah, I have. I have to sharpen it constantly. And when you're drafting, you know, you learn to roll the pencil so that you keep that point. Yeah. Because I have nice, you know, I did that for a long time as a draftsman.
00:50:47
Speaker
So here's a question. Can we expense a trip to Japan to check out the pencils? That's right. I mean, we're nothing over here compared to the pencil fanaticism. We'll have like an entire store of just pencils and you can like customize the colors and the different types of pencils. That would be a lot of fun. I mean, because we'd probably see things we'd never seen before. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That would be great. I had to bring a big suitcase. A pencil pilgrimage. Yeah.
00:51:16
Speaker
Wow, maybe in 2022. I just know if you'd like to see that. Yes, if we could somehow finance that film and make a movie about it. It was a biased tickets to Japan. All right. Well, this is a good one from Wow, Willie. Yeah, you want to read it? Yeah, sure. In a world where everyone is copying everyone, where do we draw the line and stay true to ourselves and where we come from as individuals from?
Individuality and Trends in Craft
00:51:45
Speaker
While Willie while Willie's wood shop on Instagram. Yeah. Where do we draw the line? That's I guess that's something that we probably do in our lives outside of work and our artistic endeavors. It's must be part of your DNA. You know, I think I
00:52:11
Speaker
Said this last week or the week must have been a week before because last week is such a blur Jeff said over This this quote and I just loved it only dead fish go with the flow So we're kind of You know do our own thing kind of guys anyway And that's where the challenge and the joy is
00:52:37
Speaker
So where where do you put that line? I would say right up front. Yeah, I think it's an intuitive kind of thing. Yeah. You know, you're always pushing your individuality, I guess we'll call it, and your your point of view and desires as a craftsman.
00:52:56
Speaker
and you feel the resistance and you have to know when to back off and you have to learn the cues as to when you're just fighting a losing battle. You have to always make the decision of whether it's worth it to concede or compromise and take a job and do it a way that somebody else wants to do it in an unnecessary way. Like the whole Pinterest thing.
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, how many jobs or not jobs they were inquiries did we get last year that we felt they were sending us the very same Pinterest photos as, yeah, I want something like this.
00:53:38
Speaker
And we were just, you know, we ran rave here in the shop. We'd call them be nice. Yeah. Because I mean, we never we never dismiss anything, but we do hope to influence.
00:53:54
Speaker
And sometimes people might think that, well, it's going to be less expensive if I get something painted white. And for us, we've mentioned this in the past, it's not. It's actually a little bit more expensive to do it that way for us. And we hope that we can reach a middle ground where we're doing something that
00:54:16
Speaker
you know serves them because that's the bottom line and that but also creates you know opportunity for us to have some joy in our work. Which is really what we're all about here I mean.
00:54:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we've all heard the like saying some jobs feed the soul and some jobs pay the rent. Right. So if you're not paying the rent, you got to take the jobs that pay the rent. But if the rent's covered, well, then you can afford to yeah. Yeah. Stick to your guns and only do it the way that you want to do it. And you know, if you if you have a strong creative vision, sometimes people don't know that
00:54:56
Speaker
they want what you're dreaming up instead of what they've already seen. So I always love to pitch something to somebody and say, how about this? Sometimes we get shot down like right away, but not usually.
00:55:11
Speaker
Yeah, and like, you know, for example, those cheese lounges that we were talking about, that's not our design. No, it's basically it's a rip off of a commercially available design that they they couldn't. They need to resize it. The size was wrong. But you know what? I'm going to fucking enjoy building that just as much as I would something that we design because. Oh, yeah. Because it's all about the process. Yeah.
00:55:31
Speaker
And, you know, we're doing it, I guarantee you, they're not steam bending it. Those are factory made. There's a, you know, a section of a production plant set up to just crank out those parts. There's a machine creating the arms and then there's somebody at the end putting all the parts together.
00:55:52
Speaker
Yeah, so there's always a place in the job to put your stamp on it. Yeah. Yeah. We know Willie. He's extremely creative. He's got a lot of very cool stuff. So I always like to hear from Will. He's very cool. And when he was here as our guest,
00:56:13
Speaker
I was pretty fascinated by everything that he'd done. Yeah, I'd like to have Willie Beck on. Yeah, yeah. Especially because the audio got so messed up on it. Still a mystery. I'm afraid this next question from one of our patrons, Tom M. He's going to be sorely disappointed. Yeah.
00:56:34
Speaker
He wants to know I have to say I don't watch hockey. It's one of those sports where I keep saying to myself, you know, I should watch some more hockey. This looks like a good game.
00:56:49
Speaker
the only and I would say I'm a would definitely be a Rangers fan being from New York and The only time I really watched it was when I was living out in San Francisco and the Rangers were in the Stanley Cup with Who was his Vancouver and my buddy who was the bass player in the band he was from Vancouver
00:57:11
Speaker
So of course he was a big hockey fan and he could kind of explain the nuances of the game to me It was a lot more enjoyable Because if you're just watching it and you don't really know all the rules If yeah, especially games like that where there's like penalties and you know not knowing what an offside right, right? And it's very fast-paced. So Yeah
00:57:36
Speaker
What about you? Did you watch any hockey? I don't watch sports at all. I grew up playing football. I played football from 5 to 18 and I played lacrosse. I don't know if I played like T-ball or anything like that when I was a real little bit.
00:57:53
Speaker
I just I don't have any interest in sports anymore. Yeah, I don't know what it is. It's the commercials. It's the announcers. It's the hyperbole stoppages with penalties. And I just it does nothing for me anymore. I like, you know, if I go to somebody's house and hang out, have a couple of drinks and eat some food and watch a football game, I'm fine with that. But
00:58:15
Speaker
You're not gonna catch me in my free time by myself watching a sports event. I did get into hockey about... Let's see, it's...
00:58:27
Speaker
Probably about eight, seven or eight years ago. And I did watch a good bit of Devils hockey. If I was going to watch hockey, I would root for the Devils. I did then been to a couple of Devils games. But no, I don't follow. I'm a Giants fan, a Devils fan, a West Virginia Mountaineers fan in terms of football.
00:58:48
Speaker
And I guess there are other sports, but yeah. Yeah, I just don't. Growing up, we played in New York. You're basically this is now we're talking about the 70s. And not even the late 60s. I was born in 62. So you you played sports in the schoolyard or in the street based on what was going on on TV.
00:59:13
Speaker
So we played a lot of roller hockey and street hockey with those. Did you ever see those those black pucks that they use for street hockey? It was this hard plastic puck because it could slide on the blacktop. Yeah, of course. We had no padding or anything like that, but we're taking slap shots. Oh, yeah. So it's like it was the goalie.
00:59:42
Speaker
It's like like a normal hockey puck is that black rubber. Right. This was like a suit word I'm looking for, like a Delrin kind of like a hard black plastic. Yeah. You know what it reminded me of? Remember, this is what we used to use when we didn't have one. Remember the old Dunkin Yoyos? Yeah. That's what we used to use if we didn't have a buck.
01:00:04
Speaker
That'll knock you out. Definitely bust some teeth out. So, growing up in Brooklyn. That's small, it's hard to keep your eye on.
01:00:15
Speaker
You could have, you know, checking and playing football. Everything was on blacktop. Yeah. You know, there was no grass to be seen. I love playing lacrosse. Lacrosse was a really fun, fun sport. I played that from, I think, like fourth grade to 10th grade. Yeah. Then I got a job and I was like, screw this. I'm going to make money because, you know, I was a I was an OK athlete, but I wasn't I wasn't great in football and lacrosse. But
01:00:44
Speaker
I remember like breaking a kid's hand through his glove when lacrosse is cool you get to hit people with a metal stick yeah yeah like hockey you can check people like a little bit but in lacrosse like you can yeah they whack you can really wham it looks like a great game it's fun it's like
01:01:01
Speaker
Hockey and soccer and football kind of like all wrapped up in one. Yeah. Yeah, I would have I mean we didn't have access to anything like that Did you ever see that movie stand by me about like there's these kids get together and they like there's this dead body in the woods But it's sort of like a myth in a way. It's like they're gonna go look for ya. Yeah
01:01:22
Speaker
Growing up when I was that age, that myth was surrounded a grass field. Like you heard there was this grass field somewhere. You're not quite sure where, but like if you take the L and you get off at this street and it's like you got to go through this neighborhood and there's a grass field there.
01:01:45
Speaker
That's funny. It is. It was a different world back then. It was. I mean, even though I grew up in essentially a city, a real urban environment to compare to today, it had a very small town kind of almost Mayberry esque.
01:02:03
Speaker
kind of feel compared to today. Parents, I mean, your parents would scream out the window when it was time for you to come home. That's the kind of neighborhood I lived in. Well, it touches back on like that depersonalization of society, like people's jobs not being an identity anymore. And, you know, because all those people in your neighborhood, that was
01:02:24
Speaker
That was Steve from the shop down there and that was Mary who worked at the at the corner store and so you knew everybody but now I go over here to there's a supermarket. I don't know any of those people. I still remember I live with my grandmother growing up. I was probably six or seven years old when I would have to go to the store with her.
01:02:47
Speaker
I still remember the butcher's name because, you know, that's where you got me. There was no grocery store in those days in the neighborhood. You went to each individual place. And I used to love all like the shavings on the floor. And I used to call the I guess he was called Mr. Joe. His name was Joe. I still know him as Mr. Joe the butcher.
01:03:11
Speaker
Yeah, I remember going places like with my dad and I grew up in the 90s. Yeah. The hardware store, the pharmacy or with my mom, the hardware store, the pharmacy, the bait and tackle shop and like seeing the same people. There's something great about that. Yeah, it's not as much a thing anymore. It's definitely still a thing in places, I'd say more towards the center of the country. Yeah. And there there are I mean,
01:03:37
Speaker
I guess we go places like that too, a little bit, but it's just not as widespread as it used to be. Yeah, some of the trade stores, I mean, because it's a small group of consumers, you know, if you go into, I mean, but even like Monteith, where I used to go get lumber all those years, you go there, the guys retired, and there's like, there's three people working there that don't know you and you don't know them, and everything at once
01:04:05
Speaker
All like the 10 to 12 years you spent building that relationship is just completely gone. Yes. That's like we went to bullet lock. Yeah. Long Branch.
01:04:16
Speaker
We talked about this last week? I don't think so. I don't know. I think we went on Wednesday. Did we? No. We went the day that we filmed. Yeah. Cause we had a race to get back. Thursday or Friday. Yeah. Bullet lock is a really cool old school. Like you walk in, it's like all 1970s work paneling and those like old cases, like display cases of door hardware and, and stuff like that to make, you know, keys and stuff. Uh, and like.
01:04:46
Speaker
Know all the guys there. It's Jack and Frank and and It's just nice to be able to have a rapport with someone and yeah, and these guys are real experts, right? They spent their lives working there. Yeah Yeah, that's cool. That was a nice diversion John Peters again. He wants to know this is a leading question. Isn't it any new shop upgrades or tools in the near future? Oh
01:05:12
Speaker
Yes. I know John's got some stuff coming too. So we have they just heard not too long ago they weren't in yet. But so we have a new planer and new shaper coming in from Oliver. They're out in Washington state. So those should be on a truck.
01:05:32
Speaker
this week. We should probably have them by maybe this time next week. We're really looking forward to that though. We're Green Street, but the shops definitely turn in blue. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not that we have any bad machines, but
01:05:49
Speaker
These are upgrades. Yeah. These are upgrades. So we're getting rid of the planer. We have a couple couple of people interested in that and the shaper will be finding a new home over here, which we have some uses for that coming up on the exterior door. And yeah, we forgot about the Dutch door with the stained glass.
01:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's going to be cool. Yeah. So shout out to Oliver Machinery. If you don't know about them, they're a long standing American company. You know, their machinery is made in Taiwan at this point. Like all the other brands. Just like our Saw Stop was made. I mean, what are you going to do? This is it.
01:06:32
Speaker
There's not the manufacturing presence here in America. There's not even the infrastructure for it. No. But they're very nice folks. And the tools are really packed with a lot of value. Oh, yeah. They're feature rich, super competitively priced. And we can't say enough about them. I mean, we wouldn't
01:06:58
Speaker
forked over the cash. Yeah. If we had any reservations. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll be sporting two new machines next week or two. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be a process to get them to get them in the street to back here inside the shop. We're not really a loading dock forklift kind of place. I was thinking you think Ed has an engine waste.
01:07:21
Speaker
I don't know. He might. I could ask. He's got a forklift, doesn't he? Ed's got a bobcat that doesn't run. Oh, okay. Yeah, that is a mechanic that lives across the street. You see, I have that suspicious thing on my screen over there. Yeah, what is that? I think it's Siri. Oh. Siri. I better X that out. We don't want to run into the same problems with that.
01:07:43
Speaker
Yeah, last week the computer went off twice. We had to reshoot. We had to reshoot like an hour and a half's worth of podcasts. And each time our answers got shorter and shorter and I think we were probably talking faster too. Can you believe we've been going for an hour and seven minutes already? No. I would have said maybe like 35.
01:08:09
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, stay tuned. We got a truckload of tools coming. Yeah. And we'll definitely, you know, do some video and things like that. Yeah. Those tools. Yeah. I mean, we're going to have to learn how to use a shaper because we don't have one. Yeah. I mean, I have, um,
01:08:29
Speaker
I've run a shaper before, but never with shaper cutters. No, yeah, usually they have like the big router bits on them. Yeah, we used to run like a three quarter inch collet, I think.
01:08:40
Speaker
with big bits on a shaper, like on job sites when I was a finished carpenter. We made our own window stool and stuff like that. That's what we had with that little bridge wood. Which, you know, similar process, but again, it's just another little learning curve. And hey, I'm, I embraced the new stuff to learn. So yeah, it's going to be awesome. Yeah.
01:09:01
Speaker
So there you go, Mr. Peters. And we'll have to hear about his new editions as well. Yeah, I won't spoil the surprise. I'm not sure if he's talking about it yet, but all right. Got one from our friends, Low Country Modern on Instagram. They changed their... I'm just reading this. They changed their Instagram handle. It used to be Locomodern. Now it's Low Country Modern.
01:09:22
Speaker
On a scale of 1 to 10, how awful are epoxy river tables and what will everyone do with them in 20 years? Also, thank you guys for crushing it and giving us a fantastic podcast. Cheers. Wow. No, thank you for listening.
Sustainability in Woodworking
01:09:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
01:09:39
Speaker
Boy, you know, in this answer, I don't want to insult anybody. It is just my opinion, but I would say 10 what just not. I'm not a fan. I know Jeff will answer. He's not a fan either, but it's just one of these things that might have been cute at the beginning that just
01:10:00
Speaker
It turned into a caricature of itself. And it's a bastardization. Yeah. So once it jumps to shock and all that other stuff and all those phrases that that tired phrase fits the epoxy river table perfectly. Yeah. I'm going to say 10 plus. Yeah. I'm going to have to agree. I just don't.
01:10:30
Speaker
Like it should have just been that one off thing where someone was like, yeah, look at this thing I made. And people were like, oh, that's cool. And then we just went on building stuff that was like real furniture. I just don't. You're like you're taking the natural beauty of a live edge piece of wood or sometimes now it's not even a live edge. People are just like putting random pieces of wood with epoxy in the middle and you're covering it up with this synthetic
01:10:57
Speaker
I guess maybe not all, not all epoxies are synthetic. I don't know. I don't know the chemical makeup of epoxy, but you're, you're filling it with this petroleum product, this neon colored or. Yeah, it's a little silly. It's just, yeah, I don't get it. I mean, we, we live outside, I'll say of a pretty affluent area and we work in homes of people who have
01:11:20
Speaker
more money than we'll ever have. There's a reason we don't see these tables in any of these homes. That's right. That's right. That's a that's a great point. Those things will all wind up in somebody's basement. I mean, I won't even say the the dumpster because they'll they'll just kind of go down the food chain until they find a way into a dorm room or find them at a garage sale in five years or, you know, pennies on the dollar or what they paid.
01:11:49
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, so we're selling the planer and I get a message from some guy and he's like, oh, yeah, would you be willing to trade like carpentry service for the planer? I said, no, I appreciate the offer. But, you know, we're furniture makers. So, you know, we're really looking for cash on this one. He goes, oh, yeah, I'm a furniture maker, too. I, you know, I do stuff with like Live Edge and epoxy.
01:12:15
Speaker
I you know deep down the snarky woodworker and you wants to say like Dude, please don't lump yourself in with us because you're not Yeah, we can be a little once you start bringing those things up we can get a little snarky pretentious, I mean it's like a Like you said a caricature of our craft almost it is it is
01:12:42
Speaker
Like the Dutchman's like the store-bought Dutchman. Yeah, I speaking a while Willie He he had to put some real Dutchman's in like a table that he was making and I was Busting his balls a little bit. I said you should have used a slab stitcher Which is this thing that you can buy and it's a router template with pre-made like butterflies Different shapes and it's just I don't know it's just getting ridiculous
01:13:11
Speaker
Yeah. Well, luckily, there are people out there that are still preserving the craft and the artistry. What can I say? People like Lowcountry, you know, he's doing it and Willie and tons of people we don't even know about. Yeah. And hey, if you make river tables, I'm sorry. Yeah. We're not trying to hurt your feelings. Just, you know, hey, everybody's got an opinion. This is just ours.
01:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's just our opinion, our take on it. You might hate craftsman style furniture. Yeah. Or or anything. You might hate everything we make. There's probably people out there like I don't particularly like like that, that heavy period furniture with all of the carving and all the stuff. But I mean, to appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into it, I can't touch any of that stuff. I mean, that's
01:14:07
Speaker
That's a skill set that I don't have the least bit of. Yeah, like I don't want in my house. We were just talking about Cabrio legs today, like a buffet with Cabrio legs, right? And the big brass pulls with the big back plate queen. Like that's just not my shtick. But we don't feel the same way about that as we know.
01:14:33
Speaker
Cuz I'll make that that piece with the Cabrio legs, but I don't want to make an epoxy table How much if somebody came to us and said they wanted an epoxy table Winning what store bought steel? What are the hairpin legs? Well, what would we? Do it I don't think we could put a price on it. Oh
01:14:59
Speaker
They'd have to be like waving a wad of cash. Yeah, what would the fee be? What would turn up your nose fee be for something like that? There'd have to be some kind of NDA like you can't say that we made it. It really goes against everything that we stand for. That's a big chunk of hazardous material basically between those pieces of wood.
01:15:21
Speaker
Yeah, so hopefully they never wind up in a dumpster and they just keep getting handed down. Yeah, that stuff is going to is going to do some damage to the earth as it degrades. All right, so we'll move on to Jack T. Jack Thornton, 98 on Instagram. He asks, have you used many exotic woods before? I'll start off. Jack, we want to know how the apprenticeship is going. Yeah. Let us know if you I don't know if you started it or if you if you're still doing it, but let us know.
01:15:53
Speaker
We, by virtue, don't really use many exotic beds or really any at all, just for sustainability purposes, for the sustainability in terms of the shipment. All of our wood is coming from... I'd say a preface it with this, sapele is about as exotic as it gets for us.
01:16:15
Speaker
We have bought some very small quantities of accent wood for certain things, the canary wood and the Purple Heart stuff like that. We're talking about like a board foot. A board foot, yeah. I don't even know where Purple Heart comes from. Probably a lot of that stuff. It's either Africa or South America where all those... For some reason I want to think that Purple Heart was more domestic than that, but if you know, let us know.
01:16:40
Speaker
You know, like getting it here from South America, the stuff that we buy is probably sourced within, we'll say 750 miles from here, most of it. The oak is coming from Appalachia and the maple is coming from maybe at the furthest, like the border of Canada. Yeah. And as far west as maybe Ohio. Yeah.
01:17:05
Speaker
So all the cherries coming from Pennsylvania. It's just better for us that way. It's basically as simple as that. The only time I ever used anything exotic was back when US mahogany was still in
01:17:24
Speaker
Business they used to have a couple of shelves with tiny little pieces and chunks of woods that I'd never heard of and I got myself You know a piece they could fit into my hand a piece of zebra wood It's cool looking stuff. Yeah, and I used it for Sort of like these wedges in in the breadboard ends and to hold the
01:17:53
Speaker
Little braces together on the bottom of a of a bedside table, but really Nothing to speak of just yeah I think that kind of stuff is better suited to like Making pens. Yeah, a little idea turning things like that and for use as like accent wood in a Jewelry box or like a human door may make the center panel of a of the top of the box
01:18:19
Speaker
Hard there hard to glue up and stuff like that too because they're so oily. I've worked at wenge a little bit actually in the past and yeah just I don't know. I like a more fine-grained wood than that. Yeah it's not in our vernacular for the most part and if we want to accent something typically we'll you know use a native wood and maybe even dye it if we had to to to get that ebonized kind of look to it. Yeah.
01:18:51
Speaker
Oak with walnut, cherry with walnut, stuff like that. If you need small accents, it's easy to mix in something like that, like walnut, or if you need a lighter wood maple. So the answer is we really haven't. And for a variety of reasons, we just probably won't. Possibly if we got into some veneer work or something like that. And I think if we were to use something exotic, like a large scale, that would be the way to go.
01:19:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean we've done a lot of...
01:19:22
Speaker
All right.
Business Strategies in Woodworking
01:19:23
Speaker
This is a good one from Pat. Pat J, Axon Jackson, 508 on Instagram. He was the winner of our giveaway. What the hell was that for? Our first giveaway with the tools and stuff? Yeah, it was the second giveaway we did. That was the first one we did was our 1500 Instagram follower giveaway. Okay. And what was the other one?
01:19:49
Speaker
I don't know what it was for. Oh, one year for our one year anniversary of the company. So hopefully he's putting those tools to good use. Pat wants to know, is the price always the price? When is it appropriate to give discounts? That is a good question. I mean,
01:20:10
Speaker
It's a slippery slope if you start discounting. Jeff and I know what the cost of everything is and so we do a full effect. Jeff tried to mail out a proposal this morning and the file was so big it wouldn't go over the regular mail server. It was like 40 megabytes. Yeah.
01:20:33
Speaker
because we should make drawings and all the full breakdown and the written breakdown of everything. It's very, very thorough. It takes a good bit of time because we want to explain everything and it sort of sets the tone for
01:20:49
Speaker
you know, who we are as a company. So when the price comes in and it's probably higher than others, you could see it's like if you walk into a, you know, a JAG showroom or let's say a Kia showroom, there's going to be a difference of how you're handled as a customer and the feel and the fit of things. So that's that's part of it.
01:21:16
Speaker
So we try not to do that. We know what the costs are and we know what we're worth. And as long as we're able to keep paying ourselves, we don't feel the need to engage in that sort of thing. We don't come in with any pie in the sky prices. That's the first thing.
01:21:37
Speaker
Yeah I was going to say like basically once you have the number there's no discount really like we we might value engineer which is a term that keeps coming up more and more so like you want to you want to change some things in the job to bring the cost down right that we can do but
01:21:55
Speaker
where it looks bad if you come in and say, okay, the job is 20,000. And they say, well, it's a little bit high. And you say, all right, I can do it for 15 or 18. Well, where are you just pulling this $2,000 out of? It's looking like that you're ripping people off or you're charging too much and people get a little bit turned off from that. And I think it's a bad reputation to sort of create. So you need to read the job.
01:22:21
Speaker
from the beginning. This is something that we routinely do. We price out the job amongst ourselves, look at the numbers and think about the client and the job and what else is going on in the job, what the moving parts are and say, can we get $20,000 or do we need to bring it down to $18,000? And then we send off the price and if it's too much,
01:22:46
Speaker
There's really no going back on that. Then we don't get the job. But most of the time, I mean, we don't lose a job if it because the price is close. We'll lose a job because we say it's twenty thousand and they want it to be five thousand. Yeah. Not because we're not going to lose the job over, you know, 10 percent. It's just not going to happen. They either have the money and the taste and the desire for what we're doing.
01:23:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. And a lot of times there's some stick of shock, but people tend to see the value in what we're providing. And just like me and Jeff do all the time, we didn't ask 1620 to lower the price on their pants. We both looked at each other and we went, oh my God, these pants are expensive. And then we bought them. Yeah.
01:23:40
Speaker
or they're going to go somewhere else.
01:23:50
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Because that's the way it is. You know, you don't go into the store and start bargaining with the clerk. No. So why should people start bargaining with us? Yeah, I guess the problem is we're like Neiman Marcus in a world of Walmart kind of deal. I don't know if that's good analogy because I don't do much shopping. But you don't go into Neiman and start trying to knock the price down.
01:24:20
Speaker
Right, but everybody thinks they're shopping at Walmart. These jeans only cost $19.99 at Walmart. How come they're $150 here? But this next part of the question, when is it appropriate to give discounts?
01:24:40
Speaker
We do give discounts, but we do that straight up front. Like if there's a situation where we think somebody is, where a discount's appropriate, we go into the proposal, we go into the job with that right on the line. It doesn't come after the fact.
01:25:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say very rarely, like a good, good example is this Chase Lounge job. This is a job with a very fixed budget. So we, they contact us, say we have this, we need these built. Can you price it for me? Okay, we price it, send it over.
01:25:17
Speaker
All right, listen, we're six hundred dollars over budget. Can you lower the price? Yes. Yeah. That's a situation where you can do it. And that's more like a commercial client. Yeah. But even if a residential client was like, OK, we got ten thousand dollars to do this job and you said it's ten thousand five hundred. Can you do it for ten thousand? Right. We're probably just going to make it work because it's not it's not enough to make it look like we've it. It is what it is. We're taking that money out of our pockets.
01:25:45
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not like a situation where the client says, oh, no, it's too much money. And you say, well, wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually I can do it for four thousand dollars less. That's a bad move, I'd say. Yeah. It's it's good to have these open lines of communication with your clients and and keep things professional. But but
01:26:09
Speaker
What's the word I'm looking for? Not friendly, but you want to be comfortable and have real conversations and be open about budgets and all those things so that. Well, we understand that cost is an issue. It's usually number one. Yeah. That's why when people get all up in arms about us asking for a budget, I'm like confused because.
01:26:30
Speaker
It's the most important thing at the beginning of a job is we need to know your budget. Yeah, because we can design around a specific number and say this is what you can get for this amount of money.
01:26:43
Speaker
because we're building it from scratch so we can leave out the parts that take a lot of time and cost a lot of money and work around those things. I could design you a table that costs 400 bucks. Doesn't mean that you're going to want it or that we're going to want to build it, but we could certainly design it. Some of that takes a half a day with very little material.
01:27:03
Speaker
And other things like Big Mike, we made him that table. That was basically on spec. We do some things on spec where we'll build something for a colleague that's in a different trade. Mike owns a restaurant. We thought it was a good idea and a good trade to build him a table that he would put in his restaurant and put a sign up that says Green Street Joy and rebuilt this table. Yeah.
01:27:28
Speaker
That's a good example. Yeah. If it's like a marketing kind of thing or advertisement kind of thing, certainly. Yeah. I mean, that was like, I think we charge them like 300 bucks or something. Just just pay for the material. Right. What's next? It's a good one. This is very appropriate.
Tool Storage Solutions
01:27:48
Speaker
What are you doing for hand tool storage? Yeah, I'm thinking about a small chest under my bench. That's from Neil G. And we know that's Neil Tango Golf Neil TG on Instagram. We've been talking about this. This just came up about a day or two ago. Yeah. So over here.
01:28:11
Speaker
We have, if you're listening, I'm pointing to my left. Rob's bench is there. Mine is on the other side of the side door. Rob's bench is going to move down towards the door and the shaper is going to go between Rob's bench and the bandsaw. So we were talking about maybe building a couple tool cabinets to go above the benches.
01:28:32
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah, the kind you open up and your planes and chisels are sitting in there and you're walking tools. So it'd be like a little bit of a labor of love. And it would be, you know, a really nice look until it'd be something we just enjoy having.
01:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, because I guess to answer your question more clearly, what am I doing? What am I doing? I have just a bunch of cobbled together little holders that I made like as as I went. So I have I made like a chisel rack and then I drilled holes in it to hold.
01:29:09
Speaker
my burnisher, my marking gauge, my chip breaker screwdriver, my fret saw, then I got like my shoulder plane is sitting on that, and my router plane is sitting on that, then I have a thing to hold my Japanese saws, and I have my mortise butt plane up there, and my spokeshave, so it's all just cobbled together as, you know, having taken the time to, it's one of those things that gives me anxiety to think about how to lay something out like this and be,
01:29:40
Speaker
still be relevant when you get in new tools or replace tools already have. So it really has to be a conscious design. Well, you know, that's one bonus for having these lifetime tools. You know, you're not going to replace your Lee Nielsen plane with the same type of plane. So that'll always have a spot. Um,
01:30:05
Speaker
Yeah, that I'm with you. I have it's like a it's like a city that just grew without any masterful. No, man. No, no city manager.
01:30:16
Speaker
Oh, I got a new set of chisels. Got to hang them up somehow. Let's stick it here right next to the old chisels. Yeah. So it's it's a real just, you know, catches catch can kind of thing. And when you're busy, it's hard to you know, these are these are projects that you spend multiple days on. And so carving that time out is very, very difficult.
01:30:43
Speaker
But we'd love to have some really nice dedicated little cabinets. The kind where it looks like it's almost a display when you open it up, but it's very functional. It's like a wall-mounted tool chest in a way.
01:31:02
Speaker
That would be awesome. Yeah, where the, I don't want to say the lid. If it was a box, it would be the lid. Yeah, the door opens up and that's actually like a cabinet in and of itself, basically. Because we have the door there, they can open up into the door and then you just close it if you have to get out. Yeah, we don't use that door much anyway.
01:31:24
Speaker
So that's what we're doing. If I let us know what you're doing, I mean, send us some pictures. Let's check it out. Give us some inspiration. I'd say, you know, make sure your stuff is accessible. So if you do a chest under the bench, you don't want to have to be digging around in there. No. Yeah. Drawers are always good. Yeah. But
01:31:43
Speaker
This is a long one. I actually, I have to use the restroom. So maybe we'll just, uh, I'll cut the podcast for
Transition and Business Advice
01:31:50
Speaker
a second. Unless you want to talk some more yourself. Uh, yeah. Talk amongst ourselves.
01:31:59
Speaker
So so while Jeff takes a little bit of an aside Yeah, we've been going for an hour and a half now This is week three just Jeff and myself and We're getting on pretty well
01:32:15
Speaker
We're enjoying our time and we've adjusted to having just the two of us here in the shop, as you know, or maybe didn't rich retired at the beginning of the year and he's off playing golf and drinking beer. Uh, two of the things that he, I guess needed more time to do. Um,
01:32:38
Speaker
What can I tell you? We're excited about working on some projects coming up and I'm just going to tread water here. I don't want to get into any new territory until Jeff gets back.
01:32:54
Speaker
want to thank everybody that's been listening to us and especially our patrons it's it's unbelievable when Jeff sends me a text he says now we just got another patron and I just have to laugh I say I can't believe somebody is is paying us to do this you know it really helps us out quite a bit and maybe one day
01:33:19
Speaker
Well, actually aren't enough to do this for a day. You run out of stuff to talk about? Yeah, just about. Just about. I'm glad you're back. They're just picking up the recycling. Sammy's going crazy out there. Yeah. So you want to read the question? And we get a sip of water, so that's a long one. All right, here we go.
01:33:45
Speaker
Hey guys, I didn't want to type a novel but I hear you guys asking for more background.
01:33:50
Speaker
I'm a 26 year old from Maryland with a degree in forest management, but in my third year of being a carpenter slash contractor. I've been into woodworking since high school and it was the main reason I got into carpentry instead of a career in forestry. I have a basement workshop with a decent amount of machines and tools. I inherited, oh, decent amount of machines and tools I inherited from my grandfather. He was a cabinet maker slash master craftsman to the same quality as you guys.
01:34:19
Speaker
I recently built a spalted maple barn door for a family friend and decided to put an ad on Facebook saying I can build custom barn doors in the style and dimensions you need. It got over 3000 views and landed over 10 jobs in just under 2 months.
01:34:34
Speaker
After listening to your podcast, I was really questioning my custom label. I have much respect to the craft, so my main question is, what makes it custom? If I'm building a specific dimension for their opening, does that make it custom? I would love to hear your take on this. And then there's a follow-up question.
01:34:53
Speaker
No question in my mind, it's custom. And he's building them one at a time. I mean, almost if they were all similar to the point where you might not be able to tell them apart, they're still somewhat custom because it's one guy making these by hand. It's for this person. If the dimensions happen to be the same, well, that's just because the door openings are the same.
01:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, like an analogy would be, um, you build shaker benches and you build them to size for the client. They need, I need one that's six feet long. Anyone that's 10 that's custom, right? Just because it's a design that exists out there.
01:35:36
Speaker
Doesn't mean that it's not custom. That's right. You're building it for this specific client to their special specifications. So that's what makes a custom. I'll go back to the the clothing analogy when you have a suit made for the most part. It's a it's a in a style. It's within a style that's well established.
01:35:56
Speaker
lapel width and all this other stuff. The fabric is coming from the same place. Right. So it's just you choose the fabric, which is essentially like choosing maple or whatever. And somebody fits it to you. And that's the dimension. That's a full on custom suit.
01:36:13
Speaker
And it's just built within the vernacular of, you know, a sport suit or an evening suit, something like that. So, yeah, I hope we're not making anybody self-conscious or question in there. It's custom. It's full on custom. Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly what custom is. Yeah. And then his follow up question. Second, been wanting to launch an Instagram and start my woodworking business, but I've been putting it off to build my portfolio.
01:36:40
Speaker
How long should you wait and how big should your portfolio be before launching your business? Thanks for the time and inspiration, John. John Wells, 21 on Instagram. I'm going to say right off, if you had 10 jobs in two months, you've already got a business. Yeah. It's never too early to start plugging away on social media, I think.
01:37:02
Speaker
You know, a lot of us turn up our nose to the whole idea of of social media and trying to develop your brand. It's like so cringy. Your brand on social media. It is. It's 2021. You don't have a choice. That's right. You want to die off with the dinosaurs or do you want to try and have your business flourish? I mean, especially you all guys out there, a lot of people my age,
01:37:28
Speaker
Get with it or go retire. Yeah, because that's where people are finding these, you know, these things. They're not looking through the yellow pages and they're not even really searching for a website anymore. Like when I got on the Internet and built my first website, there was nobody there. And that's what drove most of my business. Yeah. Like if you look at our our Google
01:37:54
Speaker
like listing analytics. The traffic to the website from Google searches is nothing compared to the traffic that comes from Instagram and Facebook. That's where it's all at. And I started my business with no jobs and no portfolio because
01:38:13
Speaker
I needed a job. Just a dollar and a dream. That was basically it. I put a sign in my front yard. You know, I might as well have been opening up a lemonade stand because that was that was what I had. We should think about that on the side. Yeah.
Safety in Woodworking
01:38:26
Speaker
So listen, man, you're already doing it. Yeah. So more power to you. And if you need confidence,
01:38:37
Speaker
I hope this gave you some. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say get that Instagram going. Yeah. Send us a, uh, send over the link and we'll give you a follow. Yeah, definitely. More to marry you. Got another one from a patron here is from our buddy Dave, Dave Meyer, uh, who is Dave never broke Meyer on Instagram. Oh man. That's something we aspire to. Yeah.
01:39:02
Speaker
What are your best practices for disposing of rags or towels used in applying oil-based finishes? I would like to know the safest way to dry and dispose of them. Thanks. Again, super appropriate. We got some sitting right over there. That's right. And probably not the safest form of disposal.
01:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, we just kind of dry them on the edge of a pail. Yeah. And usually in the warmer months, we have about a dozen or so those those plastic brute pails outside that we store wood in. So there's always a couple of empty ones. And in the warmer months, we do it outside. We just set them outside, let them dry out. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times in the summer, we'll have like a garbage can outside, like garbage in it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
01:39:48
Speaker
for like gloves that have finish on them and and rags and stuff. And I like to like lay them on the top and if it rains, they get wet, which I think that is probably the the recommended way is to soak them with water and then throw them away. Yeah. Like not let them sit anywhere. They get soaked and then you throw them away and they get taken away or or you take them to the dump or something like immediately.
01:40:18
Speaker
We should mention the type of oil we use. Yeah, it's a pretty non-toxic Yeah, I don't know about the the combustibility though of tongue oil Yeah, but as far as like leaving it out and letting oh, yeah. Yeah, that's no stuff. That's no problem It's it's really a non-toxic thing Yeah I mean the thing you want to avoid is like crumpling up and having like a stack of them right is then the heat can build up and they can actually spontaneously combust and
01:40:45
Speaker
We like we have a couple sitting over there they're completely laid out open. And you know tongue oil is a drying oil as a call and it does doesn't evaporate but oxidizes and it does.
01:41:00
Speaker
burn off for lack of a better term. So they will just kind of plasticize and get hard. And then at that point, as far as I know, they're pretty benign. Yeah, we just throw it away. Yeah, I'm not going to wash a rag out. I'd say don't take our advice on that because we are not experts flying by the seat of our pants.
01:41:22
Speaker
I've kicked around the idea of getting a red metal garbage can. Even then, though, you could have a fire in the shop with that and it could still be a problem. I mean, we'd probably wind up putting it outside the door if we had one. Yeah. They're just, you know, supposed to be like fireproof or whatever because they probably don't let in oxygen. Yeah, it's like an ash for like ashes and stuff, I guess.
01:41:43
Speaker
I am when I was a finished carpenter like a couple months before I started They had a trailer a dump trailer on a job and they threw the the floor guys through a bunch of Stained soaked rags and actually set the trailer on fire. Yeah that stuff. I mean like the regular kind of like a minwax Yeah, those things are an accident waiting to happen. Yeah, yeah
01:42:09
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, that's what we do. We have a very specific finish we use. So it's it's non-toxic and and we don't use a lot. It's two guys here. So we don't have a lot of oily rags or anything. But I would suggest doing your homework on it as well. Yeah. All right, Dave.
Music Preferences and Social Media Engagement
01:42:29
Speaker
So this next question, Neil, Neil, Neil again, James Brown or Parliament Funkadelic?
01:42:36
Speaker
I gotta go with James Brown. Oh yeah, of course. The Godfather. Not even close. Um, Paulman Funkadelic, from what I understand, is a separate band from Paulman. Really? Yeah, I think they used a different lineup.
01:42:53
Speaker
Um, and of course they, you know, they kind of get intermingled. Um, but I'm really more of an old school guy. I do kind of like, uh, some of that, that, that, uh, the dance funk that they did, you know, and, um, they, they broke some ground bootsy Collins on base.
01:43:18
Speaker
Yeah, like I couldn't I can't even really name a Parliament Funkadelic song granted. I'm not from that that That's I grew up in that time period but like I Listen to James Brown. I don't want the fun. Yeah, that's a good song. Yeah flashlight
01:43:39
Speaker
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, that was Bernie Whirl on keyboards who did the bass line, you know, and it had all those, you know, those bends in it. So, yeah, he really was like the first guy to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they have obviously, you know, another classic giant. They don't have a line like this, though. I don't know karate, but I know crazy. Yeah.
01:44:06
Speaker
Yeah. Nobody touches James. I mean, that's just the way he is. He is a crazy man. Yeah. We love James Brown here. And there might not even be Paul and that funkadelic without James Brown. I mean, they probably not. They they took it in a paved the way for a lot of different direction. But yeah, without James is there's a lot of people that don't make it. Yeah. All right. So we settle that.
01:44:34
Speaker
How much time do you, Jeff, spend on social media? This is good. Patreon, et cetera, answering messages, looking at comments, and generally communicating through that medium. Miles T, our patron. I mean, Jeff will answer.
01:44:52
Speaker
I'm gonna say from my end watching it's an astounding number because it doesn't it's not even relegated to a specific time like oh yeah between six and seven I'm gonna work on it it's something that has to happen all day long and it goes on into the evening and it starts early in the morning before we even get to the shop
01:45:15
Speaker
Yeah, so I actually, when I saw this come in for miles, I wanted to look at my screen time on my phone. Because it'll tell you how long you spend on these apps. So let me see, I just pulled it up. It looks like...
01:45:41
Speaker
Let's see. Now is this gonna be just for today or? This is daily average. Usually this comes up on like Sunday. It sends me like a little report. So you tell me. So it looks like Instagram. I spent about 49 minutes a day. That was my
01:46:10
Speaker
my average I guess for last week hour and 39 minutes on social hmm
01:46:26
Speaker
I'd say that sounds pretty accurate, about an hour a day. Not all of that is necessarily communicating with people. I do browse and I look at other people's stuff and things like that. Patreon's not on there. I don't spend a lot of time on Patreon. I try and put some stuff up for you guys, but it's mostly just the aftershow that we do.
01:46:49
Speaker
Um, the other thing is you're very good at it Like if I was to try and do some of those same things takes me quite a bit longer like even my simple instagram posts you know You you have to do these things like now I go on reddit all the time because i'm I'm like one of those nut jobs that is on let's trade pedals so
01:47:13
Speaker
I'm always swapping guitar pedals and I'll zoom over to Imgur, post a picture to Imgur because with Reddit you got to post an Imgur link. And now watch my thumbs fly through that. So I am capable. Yeah, that's a good point because like an hour for me in Instagram time is like an eternity because. Yeah.
01:47:40
Speaker
Like I'll pop in. I'll be having a conversation with someone. I'll pop in, shoot a message. I mean, that takes five seconds and then pop back out. I mean, all day, I'm literally doing something. You're working and you're answering a question to somebody. Yeah. I mean, for example, yesterday I'm working on these feet and I'm talking to a while Willie and, um, uh, what's the guy's name we're talking to today in Michigan to Scott or Todd?
01:48:07
Speaker
I can't remember. Anywho, I'm talking to him, sending videos back and forth, saying, yeah, I'm doing this, look at this, what do you think? So yeah, an hour is realistically a lot of time. Yeah, because you're adept at it. Right. I mean, but it's a mandatory thing. We have to do this. This is what's really driving a certain segment of our company right now. A lot of opportunity comes from being visible
01:48:37
Speaker
Out there on social media. Yeah, I'd say the biggest thing that eats up time like this week I didn't do any but like editing the YouTube videos I mean it takes I had a kink in my neck for two weeks After doing the the two videos. I mean
01:48:54
Speaker
Yeah. And John Peters talks about it all the time, too. Yeah. The folks don't realize the amount of post-production time it takes to make these things actually watchable. Yeah. You sift through, you know, hours of footage to just make a five minute or a 15 minute
01:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. Even yesterday I noticed, so we're building this secretary armoire, whatever we're calling it today. And I'm working on a process. Jeff grabs the cameras. That's the tripod presses record. He's, you know, so he's doing his job and following me.
01:49:33
Speaker
with the camera and he's filming all the stuff which is gonna be hours of footage that he's gonna have to thread together and make sense of which is gonna take a week probably. Can my neck survive? Yeah that's a great question it's it's one of those hidden costs yeah you know because in in a sense he's not getting paid for that time and it's an investment
01:50:00
Speaker
Yeah, it is. It's an investment in the future. And hopefully, I'm pretty confident it's going to pay off, you know, it'll be a wonderful, wonderful day to see that happen and, you know, get postcards from you and stuff like that. You'll be here in New Jersey. I'll be in Fiji. They take postcards at the nursing home.
01:50:25
Speaker
That's right straight from here to the nursing home. Hey, you know, it wouldn't be that bad. You know, that's that's how it goes. That's the one to be too bad. Mr. Bro, we got some mail for you. Is that is that from my boy Jeffrey?
Memorable Projects and Challenges
01:50:42
Speaker
Oh, well, Michael Steves on Instagram, Michael S.
01:50:48
Speaker
He's asking, just getting into woodworking, what would be the best first power tool to buy and get started? Well, it's tough to say. Let's just assume that you have no power tools at all, I guess.
01:51:06
Speaker
You gotta go with a drill and driver. You're really can't get anywhere without those. You're gonna use those to put things together, to take things apart, to make jigs and fixtures. I don't think there's anything we use more except for maybe the table saw.
01:51:22
Speaker
Yeah I mean I have four of them over there at the bench and I wish I had about another half a dozen. And I have three so they're constantly scattered around a little shop. Actually I have five. Yeah that's right. If you mean something like a machine
01:51:39
Speaker
We'd obviously say the table saw. So there's your two answers, drill driver and table saw if that's sort of where you're heading with that question. We tackled this question or something similar weeks and weeks ago and we debated it and those were the answers we really settled on.
01:52:04
Speaker
Yeah, that was man. That feels like a long time ago. I know. I wish I could say like, yeah, check out episode seven. Yeah, no, we know it wasn't seven. You have no idea. But if you have any questions about those things, you know, feel free to drop us a line. Yeah, we got, you know, yeah, I want to say it's in like around like episode 10. Maybe we talked about that. Yeah. I can't guarantee that that's where it is, but.
01:52:29
Speaker
All right, you want to read this next one? Yeah. Steve C. What is your favorite project and our most memorable project?
01:52:36
Speaker
Oh, this is two questions I got stuck together. So far. Yeah. What is your... Well, you see here, it's... Oh. This is actually two questions. What is your favorite project and or most memorable project so far? Not necessarily a Green Street project, just one from... Is that supposed to say which? From which of you? Oh, from each of you. Just one from each of you. Ah. An all-time kind of thing that sticks out from Dustin F., one of our patrons out in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Oh, I see. He didn't use the space in between those two questions. Yeah, should I? Yeah.
01:53:08
Speaker
Yeah, because I started reading it and then I saw Steve. I'm like, this is the question Steve asked. So Dustin wants to know what our most memorable projects have been. Yeah, not necessarily Green Street, but just in general. One from each of us, all time favorite.
01:53:23
Speaker
wow that's that's a tough question and i've had a little bit of time to think about i haven't been thinking about it hard but you want to go first
01:53:39
Speaker
I tell you, I could pick one. You know, it's like trying to choose between your children. I'm gonna say this kitchen that I did in Cherry, it was small enough to where I could, you know, grain match the whole job. And it was one of those jobs where things just went well.
01:54:07
Speaker
That doesn't always happen. There were a lot of really finicky parts of this job. Like the cabinets had to get stepped back so they wouldn't block the windows and it was a crazy door situation. There was a lot of things. There was such a limited spot. Like some cabinets had to share a wall that wouldn't necessarily be that way.
01:54:31
Speaker
It just came out really nice and I was happy with it and I remember it for that reason that it was a you know, a real feeling of contentment when I finished and there was no odd you to know aggravation like man, this was like I had all the odds against me. Yeah, exactly. And like, you know, when you do something and you're surprised you did like I was expecting something to go wrong. Yeah, every day.
01:54:58
Speaker
So I'll pick that one. I'm going to shoot from the hip. This one popped into my head as a finished carpenter. This is probably 2015. Working on a historic home in Monmouth Beach, which is right on the ocean. The house isn't on the ocean. It's a town right on the ocean in this barrier island that's right here a couple miles up the road from us on the Atlantic Ocean. House from.
01:55:27
Speaker
mid 1800s, we did an addition in the back and an addition on the second floor, basically bumped out two floors, new kitchen, new flooring everywhere, etc, etc. So under the stairs was a little closet, you know, the door.
01:55:45
Speaker
So in there, I actually did the flooring, walnut flooring. I did all the sheetrock because this kind of got like thrown on to me like at the end of the job. We actually I didn't even do the trim in the house. That was subbed out because we were so busy. But you know, as it always happens, we come in to fix all the little things and do the club, do all the built ins and stuff. So I did the flooring, the sheetrock, the taping, everything.
01:56:10
Speaker
underside of the stair, all that, the walls. And then I built the whole thing out as like a China closet. So there were on the sides, little shelves with the little dowel, you know, the little dowel for displaying plates. And I had made felt line drawers and silverware dividers and stuff, tray dividers. It was really cool, really, really nice folks.
01:56:36
Speaker
I actually spoke to the homeowner not that long ago because I had we we routinely get people reaching out to ask about refinishing and we don't do refinishing. Yeah. It's a very specialized kind of thing. And it's going to cost you an arm and a leg if we try and do it because we don't do it. It's not what we're good at. So we were expensive at what we're good at. So we're going to be more expensive at what we're not. So I knew that she had a good refinisher. So I spoke to her. Really nice people.
01:57:06
Speaker
And it was just a really fulfilling job to do the whole thing from start to finish and then see it get painted and it was it was cool it makes me think of like those psychological surveys that they would give people about job satisfaction and the thing about like assembly line workers
01:57:24
Speaker
The job satisfaction part of why it's so low is because they never see a project come to fruition. They're just engaged in a small part and that's the opposite of what you just described. You know, you see it all the way through and then you look back and go,
01:57:42
Speaker
Man, I did this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some jobs, like we would trim out and then never see, never go back to see it painted. Yeah. You know, typically you would have some punchless list stuff at the very, very end of the job. Bathwear, bathroom, hardware, stuff like that. But some of these jobs you just never made it back to. Yeah. And it's like a open ended story. Like you never saw the end. There's no closure. Yeah.
01:58:10
Speaker
So that was a cool one. And I was still, I mean, I was still cutting my teeth really. So each one of the, like, you felt relied on and humbled to be left to do, like nobody was saying, put this here and do it. No, it was all on me to figure it out. So it was fulfilling, you know? That's a great process. Yeah.
01:58:34
Speaker
Yeah, actually, I sent you pictures of my very first walk-in closet that I built. That was... man. That was no small job either. It was huge. It was...
01:58:46
Speaker
About half the size of a shop, about a 400 square foot walk-in closet in Red Bank, in another very, very old home. Original parquet floor. And those pictures didn't even show a lot of it. Yeah, I lived in the smaller apartments. Yeah. I mean, that was like...
01:59:06
Speaker
15 sheets of plywood or something like that. Oh, God. All site built. You know, there was the bedroom and then this long hallway that went around the side. And then you turned into the master closet and then the master bathroom was right there. So I built everything in the bedroom with a table saw and a chop saw and routers and carried it all around. And it was insane. Angled shoe shelves and a makeup camera with radius shelves.
01:59:35
Speaker
I was like 20. Let's wait for somebody to come in and help you. I have guys are like, how long you've been doing this? I'm like, God, two years. They're like, man.
01:59:48
Speaker
But that's how you learn. It's just getting thrown in, thrown to the wolves and figured out. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And usually you don't get any accolades. You just, you know, you do the job and everybody goes, all right, good job, Jeff. Yeah. I was making $14 an hour or something.
02:00:07
Speaker
The only time they really notice you is when you screw something up. Yeah. That job too, like we built a laundry chute. So they bought a vanity that had a slap bottom. I had to cut the vanity apart, make a door, cut a hole in the floor with a thing, you know, make a chase that goes down to the first floor. It was crazy. Sounds like fun though.
02:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, and yeah, man, now that you put it that way thinking back, I'm like, yeah, I'm just some guy making 14 bucks an hour. Yeah. Oh, man. Busting out stuff that you are a money maker. Oh, yeah. That's why I left when they couldn't give me any more money. I'm like, yeah.
02:00:42
Speaker
You've been, you've been making a mint off my sweat for five years. If he was smart he would have thrown you a couple of bucks and you know. Yeah, he knew he'd put up a fight. Yeah. That's right. Alright, so now we get on to Steve C's question. Who was Coop Skateboards on Instagram? We know Steve. What do you use for laying up wood veneers to plywood?
02:01:07
Speaker
Well, we just don't really do it. No, we don't. We have very little call for it. Yeah. The few small things we've had to do, it's just clamps and a platen, you know, like a big flat piece of wood, you know, underneath the clamps.
02:01:28
Speaker
I guess if we had a job that demanded it, we either looked to borrow or get access to somebody's vacuum bag. And if it really warranted it, we'd go out and buy something. Yeah, I mean, we have a decent amount of experience with vacuum bags. Yeah, we've all done it at other shops for both veneers.
02:01:51
Speaker
shot made veneers commercially available veneers and like from Micah stuff like that yeah but yeah I mean we we don't really have a need to use veneers at this point no I mean like the back of this cherry cabinet we're just gonna use a piece of cherry plywood and you know you can specify what type of veneer you want
02:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, we have, what is it, A1 or whatever? It's just a high grade carry. You're just asking for what's the best looking veneer you have on, you know, you can even specify the type of core you want. Yeah. So it's pretty readily available and good to go. I guess if it was something exotic, I mean, you can even get that stuff now. Yeah. You know, you order it. You get Wengie on MDF or I mean, whatever.
02:02:44
Speaker
Places like Atlantic plywood actually lay up veneers. Yeah, I believe we know Steve makes a lot of skateboard So yeah, he's he's laminating a lot of stuff. Yeah So that's that's part of that's really in his wheelhouse. Yeah, I mean I'd love to have a vacuum bag here just to have it and use Yeah, it'd be fun. You know, it's like anything just another tool in the quiver. Yeah. Yeah, but um until the day comes that we For example this job that I just sent the price out today. I
02:03:15
Speaker
The species on the credenza, it's a wine cabinet credenza, this whole wall with mirrors. The species are undetermined, but maybe we were talking about doing quarter sawn sycamore, which
02:03:27
Speaker
Not that easy to find and you know sycamore is very unstable So that could be a situation where? Can we fit $500 into the cost to get a vacuum bag and get some veneer? Well, maybe yeah. Yeah You have to juggle some of the numbers around. Yeah what you come up with so
02:03:46
Speaker
That's it. We're pretty primitive as far as that goes. We do it, you know, with the pressure. Yeah. When we build like doors, we just build them solid. Yeah. Like, you know, we've we build these big barn doors and stuff and they weigh, you know, they might weigh a couple hundred pounds. Yeah. Because everything's solid wood. It's just it's it's the way we do things. It's how we're geared up as a shop and all those other things. So it's not always just, you know,
02:04:17
Speaker
A point where it's like well, this is how we do it and we don't do it any other way It's just it's the most practical for us in many. Yeah Yeah, I mean the cost is already so much to build this door I'm gonna all of a sudden inject all this extra labor into Making a composite core on the door and then putting a skin on it and on the back and on the sides top bottom
02:04:40
Speaker
For us, it's just easier to build it out of solid wood and then just get a better hinge that can handle the weight. Yeah, because everybody knows the labor is the most expensive part. And so we're the most expensive part of the job. If we could save time by doing it
02:04:57
Speaker
at a hardwood instead of laying up veneers, it's cheaper. I could see if it's something highly figured, like you've done the bird's eye maple panels out of veneer or the stuff like quarter sawn butternut, that's not easy to find. I mean, I definitely see the use for it. Just again, like you said, we stick to what we know and for the most part and only branch out when it's feasible. Those door panels, they're like eight, nine inches by maybe 15 inches tops.
Closing and Gratitude
02:05:25
Speaker
you know, for a little kitchen. So it's easy to do a bunch of clamps and the glue, the special glue, because, you know, it has just the right amount of setup time and everything.
02:05:38
Speaker
And that's going to bring us to thoughts on the beer of the week. That's what we got this week. You know, we might have to rethink this one bottle of beer. Yeah, you took that out quick. This one was small. I was thinking about grabbing two. But actually, it's the right amount of beer for us, really, you know. Yeah, it is. I mean, we're not big drinkers. I got work to do when I get home. Yeah, we have to go through the day still.
02:06:03
Speaker
So I thought it was great. It really I wouldn't say I could definitely taste it as pineapple, although if I thought about it, I'd say yes. But it had definitely had a fruity, you know, like zest to it, like it was bright in that sense and crisp. I really enjoyed it.
02:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, I liked it. It actually has some food pairings here. Savory tacos al pastor, torta de jamon, and ceviche de camaron. Shrimp ham. Ham sandwich and shrimp ceviche. They say shrimp sandwich, ham sandwich. Cheese queso chihuahua, queso añejo, and queso wahaca.
02:07:01
Speaker
Lunch. Meal mascaras. What's that? I don't know. A thousand masks. What is that? I don't know. Blue Demon. Oh, Lucha Doris. It's wrestlers. Blue Demon and El Santo. I don't know what they're getting at with that if you're talking about Lucha Libre.
02:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting place. I mean, there must be some sort of Mexican connection with the artwork. Yeah. I didn't think of that. Yeah. Yeah. Pinaciello is the name of the beer. Yeah. A.K.A. Scully barrel. Huh. Scully barrel. Oh. Oh, we missed this part of the bottle. A.K.A. Scully barrel number 57.
02:07:45
Speaker
Fruit has an afterlife, fermentation begins the process of transformation that refines fruits to their essence, a pure reflection of one season and one place. This tepache, oh okay, this was inspired by tepache, which is like a Mexican fermented drink. Inspired wild, sour, golden ale began with the open fermenting of whole pineapples in our 300 gallon coolship.
02:08:08
Speaker
Ceylon cinnamon and dark brown sugar were added to further the evolution of flavors and hint at this drink's origins in pre-Columbian Mexico. Salud.
02:08:18
Speaker
Well, there you go. Yeah. It really was pretty interesting. And another beer that was not as beer like as you might think. Yeah, if I'm going to drink just like one beer, I might as well have something unique. You know what I mean? I've had I've had a beer. Yeah. Yeah.
02:08:40
Speaker
That's the thing. It's a beverage. It's nice. And it was really cold too, so it was tasty. So Tool of the Week, it's on our website. Yeah, we'll have a link in the description.
02:09:00
Speaker
in the, you know, on the, sorry, bumbling on my words here, in the podcast description, on the YouTube video. Check us out on YouTube. We just hit a thousand subscribers. Yeah. Thank you. All the subscribers out there. Yeah. Really means a lot to us. Yeah. Thank you to our Gold Tier patrons, David Murphy, Manny Sirianni, Eric, Dustin Fair, and Adam podcast. We have a discussion every week over Dustin. Fair like mayor.
02:09:29
Speaker
We appreciate it, guys. It means a lot. Yes. You didn't know every week we do an after show for the patrons. So we'll put up a 30 or 45 minute little bonus show where we talk about all kinds of stuff, not necessarily woodworking related. We always tie it back in somehow. But, you know, these guys mean a lot to us. So we give them a nice little show. Yeah, we try our very, very best. Yeah.
02:09:51
Speaker
So everybody be well out there take care of yourselves and Please come back next week. Yeah. See you next week for 22. Yes This was episode 2021 21 and 2021 22 oh one. Yeah
02:10:28
Speaker
Ain't no shame, but there's been a chain.