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52. Say Yes to Yourself: Michelle Thompson on Creating Your Own Opportunities in a Dance Career
145 Plays30 days ago
In this inspiring episode, I sit down with Michelle Thompson - former dancer with Ballet Austin, seasoned educator, and freelance choreographer based in New York City.
Michelle shares her remarkable journey from a spontaneous childhood dance debut at a neighborhood party to training at San Francisco Ballet School, a fulfilling 14-year career at Ballet Austin, and her transition into teaching and choreography.
Michelle offers candid insight into the realities of a professional dance career - from balancing motherhood while performing, to navigating rejection, and the often unseen work of carving out a path as a freelance choreographer.
This conversation is full of wisdom about longevity, resilience, community, and the importance of saying “yes” to yourself.
Key Topics:
✨ The lessons performing in company productions as a student taught her about professionalism
✨ How hard work, consistency, and openness shaped her long career at Ballet Austin
✨ What it’s really like being a dancing mom and how community made it possible
✨ The importance of persistence through rejection and why “no” isn’t the end of the story
✨ Michelle’s teaching philosophy beyond technique: consistency, communication, and a positive attitude
If you're a dancer navigating the unpredictable world of auditions, contracts, or freelance creative work, this conversation will give you both practical guidance and soulful encouragement.
Connect with Michelle:
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/michelle_thompson_ulerich
DINNER PARTY PROJECT: https://www.instagram.com/dinner_party_project_nyc/
EMAIL: michelle.ulerich@gmail.com
Links and Resources:
Get your copy of The Intentional Career Handbook
Set up ticketing for your next event with DRT (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Overcoming Rejections and Taking Risks
00:00:00
Speaker
Okay, there's all these no's coming in but I want to say yes to my ideas and my concepts and the dancers that I love working with. And so I do create a lot of my own opportunities.
00:00:13
Speaker
And that obviously takes a big financial risk. There's so many logistics to organize, but sometimes i feel like I can't wait any longer, you know, for someone to say, you're the winner like we pick you.
00:00:26
Speaker
And so it's like deciding, okay, I've pitched this concept for four years. No one has said yes. It's time for me to make it happen on my own.
Introduction to Brand New Ballerina Podcast
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:55
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina Podcast.
Michelle's Dance Beginnings
00:01:16
Speaker
I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Michelle Thompson. Michelle danced as a principal dancer with Ballet Austin and currently teaches in New York at SUNY Purchase, Steps on Broadway, Perry Dance, and NY Community Ballet.
00:01:30
Speaker
She also works as a freelance choreographer producing original work with companies around the United States. Michelle, I'm so thrilled to talk to you today, and I love to ask my guests, why did you take your very first dance class?
00:01:42
Speaker
Excellent question. It's actually kind of a funny story. In our neighborhood, we would have a 4th of July kind of block party type thing. And it was the summer that I was four turning five. We went to this party and I drew a very large crowd around me dancing all kinds of crazy stuff. And this huge crowd was around me.
00:02:03
Speaker
And the host of the party looked at my mom and said, you got to get this girl in dance classes or like, I'm going to report you.
00:02:14
Speaker
And my mom, you know, having two boys and then me was sort of like, I don't know where to go. This host was so wonderful and generous and said, I'll help you sign her up. We'll do a carpool. And so that's kind of how I entered my first sort of ballet tap class in actually South San Francisco, which was just a little, little ways from my home. And then from there, my teacher there opened a school called Westlake School for the Performing Arts.
00:02:38
Speaker
I kind of went over with her because I just adored her and and loved her. Yeah. And then from there, she was like, I think you have a lot of talent and and told my parents, you know, I think she should audition for San Francisco ballet. So that's kind of how the the progression went in my early training.
00:02:55
Speaker
What age did you start at San
Early Experience at San Francisco Ballet
00:02:57
Speaker
Francisco Ballet? I was eight. It was the summer I was turning eight. And actually, that's also another funny story is I loved my my studio, Westlake School. You know, i loved my friends.
00:03:07
Speaker
And I was honestly nervous. I didn't know what to expect. You know, I knew that it was a San Francisco Ballet was a very serious school. My parents just said, you know, just go to the placement class, try it out. If you don't like it,
00:03:20
Speaker
You don't have to go back. You can return back to your your other school. And so I went for the placement class and I came downstairs and they looked at me and they said, so what do you think? And I just said to them, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.
00:03:33
Speaker
And like the rest is history. I trained at San Francisco Ballet. I absolutely loved it. It was such an amazing program and I learned so much. Can you tell us more about your training at San Francisco?
00:03:44
Speaker
The training there is very intense. As I progress, you know, from level one, level two, so on and so forth, your schedule gets more intense. You have more different types of classes and the training becomes more intense to the point where when you go to high school, you have to kind of make a choice. If you want to continue on that path, your ballet class starts at 1230, which is typically during a school day.
00:04:07
Speaker
And different people take on, you know, different choices. There's some homeschooling, kind of independent study things. But I really wanted to still have kind of your traditional high school life.
00:04:17
Speaker
And so I found a high school, ah private high school in San Francisco that really worked with my schedule. you know My last period before I would run to San Francisco Ballet, it was like four blocks away too. I would be like putting my hair up. i They allowed me to eat my lunch while I was in class, which was very nice of them.
00:04:35
Speaker
And then I would just run those four blocks. Sometimes I'd even like put my tights on already, so I was really ready to go. So I did that for four years while I was going to high school and and really made it work and had high school friends that you know were non-dancers and then you know had my really intense training at San Francisco Ballet.
00:04:54
Speaker
And you get to perform a lot, you know, with the company, obviously, in the Nutcracker. As i kind of progressed, I got to be in other large productions. It was a lot of fun. What did that training in dancing in company productions as a student teach you about being a professional dancer?
00:05:11
Speaker
I learned so much. I mean, even just in the Nutcracker realm, you know, i think for Snow, I had four tracks that I knew, you know, it was like Snowflake 15, Snowflake 8, you know, that kind of thing.
00:05:22
Speaker
Same thing with Waltz of the Flowers. And I learned so much about how to work in like a corps de ballet and like how you pay attention to corrections and how you listen. If, you know, one person is getting a correction, it's really for everyone. Betsy Erickson was the person that set a lot of that on us, you know, and even after we would perform, she had all these notes for us.
00:05:41
Speaker
You need to be more, you know, on time here to just for everyone. And so I saw how important it was to really be in a court of ballet, listen and breathe with your fellow dancers.
00:05:52
Speaker
I gained a lot of skills that then when I went to ballet Austin, I felt extremely ready to dance in a chord to ballet. I was typically always in the front because I'm quite petite. And I also really was so sensitive to the music, even when we were listening to an orchestra who maybe one night they're playing slower and one night they're quicker. And I learned that performing with San Francisco Ballet.
00:06:14
Speaker
And then when I went to Ballet Austin, I was really ready for that. Can you tell us more about your transition from student to professional?
Transition to Professional Dancer at Ballet Austin
00:06:21
Speaker
Was there anything that really surprised you about that transition? My dream was San Francisco Ballet. And so, you know, as I was progressing, this was sort of just like what I was hoping and and looking for. But then as I got older, 16, 17, realized, you know, at the end of every... Now it's a little different at San Francisco Ballet. I think they have a trainee program. But at the time, there was only eight levels.
00:06:42
Speaker
And I would see at the end of the eighth level... maybe one female would get selected, maybe not. And so I kind of started to realize, hey, maybe this isn't going to work. And I really want to dance professionally. So I need to really open up my horizons.
00:06:59
Speaker
And ah friend of mine who was originally from Austin, she said, you know, I think They would really love you there. And I think you should go to the audition. So happy she said that because Ballet Austin was truly ah dream come true for me. And when I went, you know, it was obviously challenging. You know, you're learning kind of how to be in a company.
00:07:19
Speaker
This was right out of high school. So I didn't kind of go through, i did go to college later, but I took the progression of right out of high school. I got my job with Ballet Austin starting as an apprentice and then entering the company. I knew that it was going to be like hard work and and all of these things. And I was really ready for that. But I think the thing that surprised me is that these people became my family and they're still like, they feel like my sisters and my brothers.
00:07:46
Speaker
I had obviously lots of dance friends. Obviously you create these amazing bonds when you're training and you know, you have these dance friends that are for life, but you know, entering this company and at the time the company was only 20 people.
00:07:57
Speaker
apprentices usually like eight to ten So it's a smaller company. It's not like a large, you know, San Francisco ballet or New York city ballet, but really truly these people became my family. And that was a really interesting thing exciting surprise for me. 14 years I spent there, so I really grew up from age 18 onward and learned how to be an adult, take care of myself, budgeting, and all all of those life skills that are so important. And I was you know far from my family, so Ballet Austin became my family.
00:08:31
Speaker
How do you feel like you grew as an artist during those 14 years? I grew a lot. I think I came in with extremely strong classical ballet technique.
00:08:41
Speaker
And obviously when I was dancing with Westlake and I still did guesting with them, I did more contemporary and more variety of styles. So I had that skillset, but I think ballet Austin, even though the name has ballet in it, the rep that ballet Austin does is very mixed. You know, you have modern, you have ballet, you have contemporary ballet point work barefoot, you know, you're really working a broad range. And at one point I was an apprentice and I i really wanted to dance at Ballet Austin. And I asked during my dancer meeting, I said, I really want to dance here. Like, what do I need to work on? What can I improve on? And they said, you know, your contemporary partnering skills and kind of your contemporary work could expand. Like, obviously I was working very proficiently in classical ballet. I was getting cast in a lot of obviously full length ballets. Even as an apprentice, I was at the front of the line in the swans, you know, like I was doing well there. so
00:09:32
Speaker
I did some research and I actually went to a six week program at the Tisch School of the Arts where like each week you were working with a different modern choreographer technique, people like Doug Verone and David Dorfman, I mean, these really big people and you would do like one ballet class a day and then the whole rest of the day was modern contemporary partnering. And that summer was very amazing for me. I learned a lot and that was obviously not at Ballet Austin, but i i said, I need to seek out this additional training to like boost what I already have.
00:10:02
Speaker
I came back after that, you know, sort of shared with them what I learned. And then there was this woman coming, Dawn Wood, who was setting Vespers by Ulysses Dove, which is an incredible piece. And they said, you know, this is for the company, company women, it's eight women. And I was an apprentice still at the time. And they said, but we, we want you to go in and learn it.
00:10:22
Speaker
This will kind of piggyback on what you've already learned this past summer at Tisch. And so I went to the first day and I was like, I have nothing to lose. And so I just like went all out. I was just like, I have nothing to lose. I'm going to be an understudy. It's going to be a great experience. Like let's go next day.
00:10:40
Speaker
My name is on the cast list. with like the company members who've been there for like 10, 15 years. And I'm like, this is a mistake. And it wasn't. She wanted me and I was one of the eight women.
00:10:52
Speaker
And it showed me just don't hold back. Even if you think, you know, oh, this is my first year in this company or oh, I'm auditioning and I don't know, like there's nothing to lose by like really going all out. And I think that like sometimes doubt and fear and all of these things play into that. But that moment was like, wow, okay, I did this. And then after that, I got to understudy the other work that was in the program. And that's another thing. I think understudying is so important. We sometimes as dancers go, oh, this is such a bummer. I'm understudying. Like, This isn't important. But then have a lot of understudying stories where like I came through and I did a great job. So this same show, I was understudying eight different female tracks. I was the only understudy.
00:11:32
Speaker
and someone tore their hamstring, and I went on crazy solos, crazy partnering, and I did all that as an apprentice, the only apprentice in the show, dancing in Vespers, and then understudying last minute going in, and then the next week I was offered my contract.
00:11:48
Speaker
You know, that hard work is so important, and then also being in the right place at the right time is also important, but like being ready, and throughout my career at Ballet Austin, you know, it was like,
00:12:00
Speaker
That hard work and that consistency was something that I was known for and it did pay off. So that was like the big transition from being at San Francisco Ballet, then being an apprentice, which is still kind of this in-between zone and then getting into the company. So lots of fun lessons and lots of hard work.
00:12:17
Speaker
What do you think led to your longevity during your
Balancing Dance and Motherhood
00:12:21
Speaker
time with the company? I know that you mentioned the hard work and the consistency. Can you elaborate on that or was there anything else? Yeah, absolutely. i mean, i think having balance in your life is really important. And I think I had a lot of passion, lots of hard work, you know, I put in the time, but I also made sure that, you know, there was these other things I was interested in outside of the studio and cultivating friendships and supportive networks.
00:12:47
Speaker
It does help you last a little longer. It does help burnout and things like that. So You know, I also did a yoga training. I became a yoga teacher. That was a part of my life that i really loved. I had friends through that training. I taught in really different environments, meeting lots of different people. And i love teaching, and but teaching dance and teaching yoga are different skill sets.
00:13:07
Speaker
So having these other kind of outside things that loved was really, really wonderful. And I think also i did start choreographing early on during my time Ballet Austin, and I was choreographing you know, for schools in San Antonio.
00:13:21
Speaker
I choreographed a little bit for the Ballet Austin Academy. And i think it was important for me to have this other kind of creative juices that really kind of excited me and kept me going. I was very fortunate. I didn't have a lot of injuries, but I did have one ankle surgery that I missed the end of a season. And then i recovered over the summer. But during that time, i was very active with my choreography projects.
00:13:46
Speaker
And I think that kept me mentally in a positive place because it's so easy when you get injured to feel like this is forever. And I'm never going to come back and and they're going to forget about me and all all of these types of things. And similarly, I was pregnant and came back to dancing with both of my boys.
00:14:04
Speaker
Similarly, I was very active. I was allowed to teach. I helped set things. I was doing all kinds of stuff. I even took a job with a former ballet Austin dancer. She's an interior designer, Lisa, and I worked for her as an assistant while I was pregnant. Like, so I definitely kept it broad, but obviously was always focusing on dance, but. These other things kind of helped me just have this whole perspective of life and that there's so much there.
00:14:28
Speaker
you have a favorite role that you danced during your professional career? Yes, a few. It's hard to narrow it down. I'd say in the classical ballet realm, I got to do Ketri in Dong Kyu, which is such a demanding, such a fun role. And it was definitely a breakout moment for me. So Ballet Austin is ah an ensemble company. Sometimes you're a lead, sometimes you're in the core and it mixes up.
00:14:52
Speaker
And getting to do Ketri was like a really, i was still pretty young in the company. So it was definitely like a breakout moment for me. And I can remember like the very first entrance that Ketri makes, like this is a very traditional thing is like when the ballerina enters, the audience claps, like some audience members know what that took. And so like,
00:15:12
Speaker
entering the stage, it's like, it was like a chasse, I think it's Sode Shah jump or something. And like the audience is just clapping because you've arrived. It was like, you know, and everything about that, the 32 fuetes, you know, the multiple pas de deux, the variation. So that was, as far as classical ballet, I think was like, definitely stand out.
00:15:30
Speaker
The other work was called Belle Redux, which is Stephen Mills' version of Beauty and the Beast, but kind of told in this kind of more modern contemporary way. And I was Belle and i was,
00:15:41
Speaker
part of the creation of that role. And since then, the company has done it many times. And it's kind of fun to have people reach out to me and be like, I remember when you did that or when you created this role. And it was was really special because that was my final season with Ballet Austin. And I was dancing with one of my favorite partners, Ed Carr.
00:15:58
Speaker
And honestly, anything I danced with Ed Carr was a favorite because it was just like we had a very special bond and he was an amazing partner. And then I'd say maybe the last one, I know i you only said one, but I got to work with this choreographer, Gina Patterson, who was also in the company. And she cast me in this work that was about Frida Kahlo.
00:16:16
Speaker
And I was again, pretty young, but she saw something in me and it was a lot of acting and passion and it's just really challenging work. And that again was kind of felt like a breakout moment for me. And we got to actually tour it in Europe, like, you know, after we performed it in Austin. So I'd say those were probably the favorites.
00:16:35
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
Are you ready to get started? Tap the link in the show notes to learn more, and be sure to mention that the Brainy Ballerina referred you. Can you talk more about being a working dancing mom? Because I don't think we see it a lot that dancers have children and come back to the company. It's a tricky pathway. And so I'm curious how you made that work.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. i think when I was growing up at San Francisco Ballet, you know, I saw maybe one or two ballerinas do that. But in general, unfortunately, the language around it was sort of like, if you get pregnant, like your career is over, and that's the end. And I love that that's changing.
00:17:57
Speaker
That's changing in such a big way over the last, you know, 10-15 years. And so I saw another dancer, Ara Crumpy, she did that at Ballet Austin. And I saw how beautifully she she did it and that she you know she was supported. It wasn't like after she got pregnant and came back, she wasn't cast anymore. like i saw that it was it was okay. like it Suddenly I saw an example of it. And I think that kind of gave me the courage to go for it.
00:18:24
Speaker
I'd also had friends in the company and friends around who did wait a really long time and then had challenges getting pregnant because obviously there's only so much time and for women, the clock is different. And so I didn't want to be in a place where i wasn't able to have children because I just felt like I couldn't step away. And so seeing these examples gave me the courage to go for it and obviously having a very supportive husband.
00:18:52
Speaker
And what I found so beautiful is, like I said, these people became my family. So when I was coming back, when I look back at it now, I'm like, whoa, I came back so quickly. Like, it's kind of crazy, but I i wanted to get back and make it work. But, you know, there were so many things, like with my second son, I did a nanny share with two other moms in the building who were working admin and in in the offices at Ballet Austin. But, you know, my son was like right there in the building. I literally would like pump milk and like throw the milk to my friend Orlando and he would like run it upstairs. Like, and then I would be like a swan. You know what i mean? Like it was just, you know, these people like really helped make it work. And, you know, my husband was enormous and just...
00:19:34
Speaker
making this work and you know you get this like network of child care help like especially when you're performing in the evening but you also look for these places where like i knew every summer we weren't in season like at ballet austin would be like august september until may so i was always like okay yes these couple of months are going to be really difficult and then i'll have this time you know to kind of like soak up that part of it it's challenging it takes a lot of time management It takes a lot of network and support, but I'm so happy that I did it when I did. And I'm really, truly, I think Ballet Austin was very supportive and they created the space for that to happen. and And other women in the company have done similar things. It's possible. And I think when you come back, I mean, I was always so focused and so passionate, but it's, you come back and you're like, I'm making this choice to be away from my baby.
00:20:25
Speaker
I need to like, make the most of it. And then when rehearsals over, it's like, okay, we're not going to have any mental gymnastics about how that day went. Now I'm with my baby and like, this is our time together. So I think it did somehow like it changes perspective a little bit, you know, when you're in it and then when you're stepping out of it.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, I love you mentioned the logistics part of it because I think a lot of people think about the physical part, which is obviously huge coming back from a pregnancy. But one thing I didn't really realize until I became a mom was just how difficult the logistics were to try to figure out. It's just complicated. So I'm glad that you mentioned how you made that work too because that I feel like is definitely a hurdle. People can't see a pathway through.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it takes a lot of planning and you you work like, okay, they're going to go to this daycare and then they're going to get, you're going to do the pickup. And then sometimes they get sick and it's like, it becomes a whole other challenging thing. And then you're like calling your resources.
00:21:23
Speaker
Hey, can you come so that I can go to rehearsal? You know what i mean? And it it it becomes a little bit of a juggling act. And I'd say, the earlier years are much more challenging. You know, it does get easier. You know, now my boys, they walk to and from school on their own and like they're much older. And so they have more independence. But when they're babies, it's like every moment needs to be like, they need to be taken care of. So yeah, it does become a logistic thing. And I'm helping a lot of moms now who are like, can you give me babysitter recommendations? Like I got the people, you know what I mean? And it's um it's nice to be able to help moms who are now at that stage of
00:21:59
Speaker
baby toddler and supporting them. Yeah. How did you know when it was time to transition from your performing career into the next stage?
Leaving Ballet Austin for Family
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. So in 2015, when I retired from Ballet Austin, I honestly didn't want to go. i loved it. I loved it. But when I met my husband, he was working at IBM.
00:22:19
Speaker
And then he went to do his master's and PhD. And he honestly could have gone anywhere in the United States. But he went to University of Texas, which is in Austin.
00:22:30
Speaker
so that I could keep dancing at Ballet Austin. And so when he finished his PhD, which was a very long journey, which is okay for me because it meant that I was at Ballet Austin for longer, you know, he was like, okay, I'm starting this job search. And, you know, he got some interviews in some places in Chicago, places in New York, and he's sort of like, should I go for them? And I said, you know, it's really, it's my turn.
00:22:53
Speaker
to be flexible and to potentially make a change. So yeah, shoot for the stars, go for it. I've really been able to fulfill my dream at Ballet Austin. And so he went for job interview in New York and he got it and it was like the dream spot.
00:23:07
Speaker
And so we made that decision to go for it. He'd never really spent any time in New York. So he actually went before we did just to kind of confirm because some people love New York and some people don't like it you know so he loved it he loved the job and so then I notified Ballet Austin and obviously no hard feelings they threw me like the most amazing retirement and video and cake and it was just like a really special season definitely bittersweet but I knew that It was sort of the right the right time. And honestly, I had no chronic injuries. I had no bitterness. i was in such a good spot. So for me, I felt like I could tie up Ballet Austin in this like beautiful package and put a big bow on it and say like,
00:23:52
Speaker
This was such a beautiful time of my life and just kind of hold it so close in my heart. And New York is a great place to go. If you're an artist, you know, it's like, there's so much happening. And so I thought when I moved, I was like, okay, I'm just going to be choreographing. I'm just going to be teaching like that's the focus.
00:24:10
Speaker
But then. I became very depressed. Honestly, my husband didn't even know what to do with me because I always had my Ballet Austin family, even when I was having a tough time. But dancing is is like nourishment for me. It becomes like my meditation. It becomes everything.
00:24:28
Speaker
And so he found this audition. for me. And he literally threw my pointe shoes at me. And he's like, go to this audition. Like, I don't know what to do with you. And so then I did, I went, I got the job with this contemporary ballet company that does just like pick up work, the director, Erin Renee Young.
00:24:45
Speaker
And I made a new family with these women that were part of this company. Since then, I've actually performed a lot more than I thought I would, but definitely I retired as like a ballet dancer company member. Like,
00:24:59
Speaker
that part of my life definitely like we put the bow on it and it finished but this became a ah really different performing life kind of part even now I still do a little bit of performing but it's usually my own work and I'm very much moderating what it is. And I think a lot of that came out of COVID. it was like, okay, I have all these ideas, but I can't necessarily bring all of these dancers together.
00:25:23
Speaker
i can maybe bring one dancer in and like, we can make a duet. I've performed a lot in that way, but definitely I could not go on stage and do key tree and like things like that. So I, you know, it's an interesting thing to really feel like, okay, I retired from that part of my life, but still like having this like deep hunger and like desire to still dance.
00:25:46
Speaker
and And honestly, I do think I'm going to be like that 80 year old woman that's like, you know, taking class at steps or wherever. Like I hope I can still be that way. And I honestly think I will be.
00:25:57
Speaker
It is a challenging decision point to say, okay, when am I saying goodbye to this part of my life? and And some of it was due to circumstance, my husband's job, but I think it was like all the right timing, honestly.
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah. You moved to New York and you start doing all the things. What drew you to teaching and choreographing? Did it feel like a natural progression? What was that process? Yeah, absolutely. I got really lucky. I was able to land a position teaching at SUNY Purchase and since then have taught a lot more choreographed and teaching at the college level is such an interesting thing.
00:26:33
Speaker
spot to be at. You know, these dancers are transitioning from student, like we talked earlier, into adult professionals. And I really love teaching that age group and that particular spot where they want to become professionals. And I feel like I have a lot to offer them, not just in the technique realm, but in the life skills and the etiquette of being in a company and and working with other choreographers.
00:26:59
Speaker
And since then, you know, teaching in other open class spaces in New York. I love teaching open class because everyone that's shown up there has decided that that's what they want to do with their day.
00:27:10
Speaker
you get a very mixed group of people. And this is one reason I love teaching yoga too, is like I used to teach these like 6 a.m., 7 a.m. yoga classes in Austin. And it's like, those people are deciding that they want to get up that early and be with you and work in this practice.
00:27:25
Speaker
And so I do really love teaching open class because you get to meet new people. You you meet people of all different walks of life and ages. And I find that very exciting. And as a teacher, I need to meet everyone where they are.
00:27:40
Speaker
and create a class that is enjoyable, accessible, challenging, fun, all of these things. And so that has become something that I've just really loved. And then choreographing, I think, has always been in there. Like, I think when I was like,
00:27:54
Speaker
a little kid, I would create these shows and these fashion shows, and I would like charge people 25 cents, you know, so that's always been there. And I think my time at Ballet Austin, I was so lucky because Stephen Mills did mentor me through my earlier parts of choreographing. Even sometimes I think he would get opportunities would come his way. And he was just honestly so busy that he would throw my name into the hat.
00:28:18
Speaker
And I got to do some really amazing things, you know working at the Blanton museum and working with different musicians. That was just a natural progression. Like, okay, now I'm in New York, which is just like an ocean of talented artists and theaters and spaces and opportunities. And so it just felt like the right time to really push to that next level for choreography.
00:28:38
Speaker
And you said that Stephen Mills recommends you for jobs. Did you explicitly say to him, like, I want to choreograph. If there's anything that comes up, can you recommend me? Or did he just see ah talent in you? How did you navigate that?
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. So it actually was an interesting thing. i think it was maybe my first or second year in the company at Ballet Austin. And I was really wanting to work on kind of a concept, a project. Valley Austin now is in this huge, beautiful building. But at the time, it was in a place we called the Firehouse. And there was just two studios and then a Pilates studio.
00:29:08
Speaker
But I was in this small studio. And I had a couple of my friends there. And then Michelle Martin, who is the associate artistic director, ah someone very near and dear and just was a ah wonderful support through my career. You know, she opened the door of the studio and was like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I didn't mean to interrupt.
00:29:24
Speaker
And I was like, oh, no, no, I'm just, I'm just like working on something. And, you know, she saw me working with some of the other apprentices and company members and she's like, you choreograph? And I was like, yes. And she's like, come see me in my office later. And I was like, okay.
00:29:37
Speaker
You know, and so I went and saw her and then she said she would like me to create a piece for the Ballet Austin trainees, which are now called the Ballet Austin Fellows, you know, things change. And so I created a piece for them. And then I also was teaching for the Ballet Austin Academy, created things for their like level eight students. So then I think Steven saw that I was doing a little bit of that and then was encouraging me to keep going. You know, I think it was really important.
00:30:03
Speaker
Steven was interested in us as humans and was encouraging of our other expertise and other interests. So I never felt like he saw me doing that and was like, okay, no, she's not interested in dancing. It was all connected and it was all helping me grow.
00:30:17
Speaker
And honestly, now as a choreographer and someone who directs shows, and I directed a dance company in New York for four years, I now like see so much of the challenges that you know Stephen had or people of those director positions.
00:30:31
Speaker
Sometimes when you're a dancer, you don't realize the logistics and the complications of so many things. So I think being on the flip side of it has shown me so much more about that director choreographer side.
00:30:43
Speaker
When you're choreographing, what inspires you? lot of times I like to think about kind of human emotions and human conflicts or human experiences.
00:30:56
Speaker
And then I like in my choreography to see how I can kind of stretch those and elongate them and sort of expand on them in a dance form. So sometimes it starts with a very kind of simple idea. Sometimes it's a little bit more story based. It's like maybe based on something in my life and I'm kind of stretching it out.
00:31:14
Speaker
Sometimes, you know, it's connecting to the dancers' lives and personalities and stories. And it's like, how do I draw that out? But a lot of times i'm really interested in like human emotions and human experiences because I think all audience members can connect to that and creating an experience that is accessible, an experience that maybe opens people up.
00:31:36
Speaker
in new ways. I did create this piece called Armenian Voices. I'm half Armenian. There's connection to historical events, connection to family events. And it was about sort of educating the dancers, the audience, collaborators about Armenians, but not just seeing it. Okay, these are Armenians, but how many other people, other groups of people have been affected or have had these types of things happen to them. So it was a way for me to share the Armenian experience, but also like how does it connect to other groups of people, other events in history. So it ranges. And a lot of times I look at the environment and what I'm being asked, you know, are there collaborators and all of those kinds of things.
00:32:24
Speaker
There is so much dancers need to learn as they pursue a professional dance career. It can be completely overwhelming. Where do you even start? With your intention. To me, this is the first step in defining success on your terms.
00:32:40
Speaker
Once you have an intention for your career based on your core values, you can begin to hone in on a strategy to make your goals a reality. But without it, you will always feel out of alignment, out of control, and ultimately unfulfilled in your career.
00:32:55
Speaker
So how do you figure out what success means to you? With the Brainy Ballerina Intentional Career Handbook. This is not just your ordinary book. The Intentional Career Handbook walks you through it everything you need to think about as you embark on your dance career.
00:33:09
Speaker
With over 50 guided question prompts, you will dive deep into determining what really matters to see you in a dance career based on your individual core values. By the end of this handbook, you will not only be crystal clear on your goals, but in the mindset you need to make it happen.
00:33:26
Speaker
Tap the link in the show notes to download your copy today and start pursuing your dance career with intention.
Challenges of Freelancing and Creating Opportunities
00:33:34
Speaker
As a freelance choreographer, how are you going about finding work, finding opportunities, kind of making a name for yourself in that area?
00:33:41
Speaker
Yes, I think this is one of the most challenging parts. There are tons of applications for whether it be residency, working with a particular company, and I apply for like all of them, you know, as long as I fit within the requirements. Like sometimes it says,
00:33:59
Speaker
you know, you have to be a certain age or you, if you haven't choreographed on companies or colleges before. So that's more of like a beginning stage. So some of those, I don't fit the requirements, so I won't apply for them. But some of these things I've been applying for 10 years and every time it's been a no.
00:34:15
Speaker
And, you know, sometimes I have to reassess and go, okay, maybe I'm not what they're looking for. But at the same time, if I don't keep trying, then I'm not showing them that I'm interested. Figuring out, okay,
00:34:29
Speaker
really looking at like, who are they selecting? And do I really fit what they've been doing? I always tell my students, if you go to an audition and you get a no, that doesn't mean don't come back. I've known people who've auditioned for the same company seven or eight years, and then they get it on the ninth try or, or you know, or maybe it's the third try, but that first no doesn't mean no forever.
00:34:49
Speaker
i definitely keep applying for these types of things. But I've also gotten to the stage where, okay, there's all these no's coming in but I want to say yes to my ideas and my concepts and the dancers that I love working with. And so I do create a lot of my own opportunities.
00:35:09
Speaker
And that obviously takes a big financial risk. There's so many logistics to organize. But sometimes i feel like I can't wait any longer, you know, for someone to say, you're the winner like we pick you.
00:35:22
Speaker
And so it's like deciding, OK, I've pitched this concept for four years. No one has said yes. It's time for me to make it happen on my own.
00:35:32
Speaker
It's challenging. Sometimes younger choreographers come to me for advice and they're like, oh, I applied for this thing and i got a no. And I'm like, I've applied 10 times. And every time it's been a no. they were like,
00:35:44
Speaker
whoa, really? And I'm yeah. And I also like something that students tell me and other choreographers tell me is I share like on my Instagram story, like when I do get a rejection, I maybe cover up the name of the thing or something. But I do share that because I think sometimes, especially in this world with the younger generation and social media is like they see all these people succeeding. Oh, I got the residency. I got the commission.
00:36:11
Speaker
i got the job. And then they don't see all the no's before that. And so I still want to share with people, not that I'm being like boohoo for me, but it's the reality of it because I worry sometimes that my students think like everything happens in a one-time audition or a one-time application. And it does for some people.
00:36:31
Speaker
Some people get really lucky like that and and they're talented, but... It's like right place, right time. But for most people, it's a really long haul and it's a lot of applying and a lot of pitching. And I sometimes do cold contact emails.
00:36:46
Speaker
I get radio silence. And then there's other times where someone, which I do for people all the time, is they're like, let me help you do an intro. And then... that intro leads to someone going, oh, this person has already worked with this person. They must be good enough or or they must have you know the right kind of stuff.
00:37:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely a challenge. It's a lot of no's. It's a lot of rejection, but you have to keep going if you want it. If at a certain point you don't feel inspired anymore, you have no more ideas to share, or you feel like, oh, I don't want to do this, then that's different. But it's like, if the ideas are there and the concepts are there, i tell myself like, okay, just...
00:37:24
Speaker
Keep going. like Keep going. Even when it it's hard. Do you have a dream project you'd love to do as a choreographer? Well, right now I'm actually producing a show that's going to be performed September 18th through the 21st in Brooklyn. And this is the one I think I was mentioning. was like, I've had this idea since 2020.
00:37:43
Speaker
And I've pitched it for a lot of applications, you know so I've been writing about it and sort of dreaming about it going on now, maybe five years. And it was actually, I was in conversation with my uncle who lives in Brooklyn, who is like a big supporter of mine. And he was like, Michelle, stop waiting. Like do it yourself. Like you've produced shows before you've directed a dance company.
00:38:06
Speaker
You know, you have all this skills to lead, produce, to organize. all of these things, you know, just go for it. And so that kind of got in my head. And I was like, okay, honestly, like all these people said no to it, but like, i want to say yes to my concept.
00:38:21
Speaker
And so I'm doing it. and it's definitely like, I typically work very fast. You know, if someone like Pegasus Contemporary Ballet director, Diana Crowder, she, she's like, we want you to come.
00:38:32
Speaker
I did that piece in like, and don't know it wass like four days and two Zoom rehearsals. I can work really fast, but in this scenario, it's a over an hour long show, really large cast.
00:38:43
Speaker
So I'm taking it much, much slower in the sense that I auditioned people Last summer, I've done little segments of it for smaller performances. We performed part of it in Houston, actually, for a festival.
00:38:55
Speaker
And so now I'm in this where it's over a year of pre-production work. But before that, there was all this writing and pitching for other opportunities. A big dream is coming true, and I'm doing it on my own.
00:39:09
Speaker
As far as like other dreams, there's lots of things I've pitched and applied for that I would love to get. I mean, things like the BalletX Fellowship, the New York Choreographic Institute that's done through new York City Ballet and School of American Ballet.
00:39:24
Speaker
Center for Ballet and the Arts has like this really beautiful residency. I'll keep trying. I'll keep going. But in the meantime, I'm sort of trying to also make things happen and then not wait for the permission to go and to do it.
00:39:39
Speaker
Because I might never get selected for those. And in some cases, I think maybe I've, I don't know, like, you know, I think sometimes they're looking for like a younger, kind of maybe more emerging person for some of these opportunities. And I've been in the game for a while. So maybe that's not what they're looking for.
00:39:56
Speaker
and then also, sometimes I feel like I can make something that's very balletic or very contemporary ballet. And then I make a lot of work that's really much more contemporary and modern. Like I have a really broad range.
00:40:09
Speaker
But if you look at my resume as a dancer and my training, i look like a ballet person. But it's interesting because sometimes I think the feedback I get is like for a ballet thing, or you're not ballet enough.
00:40:22
Speaker
And then for like a whim whim is another one that I've applied for many times. They haven't said this, but I feel like they probably look at me and I'm too ballet. So I don't know if that plays into some of this is like people want to know like, okay, what type of choreographer are you? What work do you make?
00:40:37
Speaker
What exactly is your perspective and your vision and like what you show? And like for me, it's honestly really broad because I like to look at the dancers that are in front of me. I like to listen to what I've been asked.
00:40:48
Speaker
Maybe the program is about a particular concept. Maybe they want it on point. Maybe they don't care. you know So there's all these like things that come into play. But I'm happy that I have so many interests and that I can work in a lot of different styles because then I get to work with a broader variety of artists and dancers.
00:41:08
Speaker
Those could be reasons why I'm not getting selected. But some of it, I think, is there's like hard work and talent, but also like luck. definitely plays into the mix. Yeah. Well, I love that you share that because I think anyone looking at your resume would be shocked to hear that you're hearing no still.
00:41:24
Speaker
Yeah. Right? Like as a dancer, you want to think you get to a point where you stop hearing no. And I think just to reiterate to dancers, like that is always going to be part of the process and saying yes to yourself,
00:41:37
Speaker
Just saying, I'm just going to do this on my own. I love that concept. And I just think that's very valuable information for dancers to hear as they're starting their career or transitioning into choreography, whatever it is they want to do, knowing that the no's never really end, but you got just keep pushing.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Kind of shifting into your teaching, can you share as a teacher, do you have kind of a philosophy or something you hope to teach your students beyond technique?
00:42:06
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That's a wonderful question. And I think this really applies in the college setting when I'm teaching at SUNY Purchase or I've worked with the Hart School in Connecticut. Obviously, the technique is so important. you know I'm trying to train them with proper technique and artistry and all those things that happen in the classroom.
00:42:25
Speaker
But outside of the classroom and the ways in which I guide them and hopefully teach them is there's all these other elements that will help you get a job and will help you keep a job.
00:42:37
Speaker
things like consistency. I think this is like one of the most important things is consistency. And I find that as a choreographer, like I would rather have someone in the room who is consistent as far as their performance, showing up on time, their presence, their attitude, all of that, and maybe be a little less talented than someone who is super talented, but shows up late, maybe gives a lot of energy in one rehearsal and then no energy in the next rehearsal. Consistency is something I believe really helped me in my career. And it's something that I find
00:43:13
Speaker
very helpful in a choreographic process. So this is something I share with my students. Communication is essential. You know, a lot of them I want to be a freelancer in New York. And then they like, they miss class and they don't tell me why they miss class. And I'm like, you have have to communicate with your choreographer. And I say, even if someone sends you all of these dates and says, are you available for April this, April that, and you don't know about all the dates, I say, email them back and say, I'm waiting on my work schedule, but I know that I'm available April 1st and 2nd. I'm waiting to hear back about so on and so forth.
00:43:50
Speaker
And they're like, really? But that doesn't have all the answers. And I'm like, Choreographers wait and wait to like organize all of the puzzle pieces. I say, just even write back, say, I got your email.
00:44:01
Speaker
I am waiting for such and such. And like for some students, they're just like, what? But I don't have all the answers. I'm like, just email back. I promise you it will go a long way. Or if they're too busy and they can't take the job,
00:44:15
Speaker
still email back because your etiquette and the way you do that, it moves through other spaces and other times. So even if you can't do it, email back and say, I'm so sorry. I have these other projects that I've committed to, but thank you so much.
00:44:29
Speaker
I hope we can work together in the future. Things like that really do make a difference and can help people. Sustaining jobs. Communication is so important, especially for people freelancing and doing multiple things.
00:44:42
Speaker
Once you're in a company, it's a little bit different because it's like, this is the set schedule and maybe there's a little less of that, like needing to email someone about something. But freelancers in general, that communication piece is so important. And then a positive attitude in the rehearsal space, like someone who's like, okay, maybe there's like an issue with the partnering and you might see someone just kind of like, ah,
00:45:03
Speaker
you know, like not into creating a solution. And, you know, sometimes you see this with college students is they're just like kind of not engaged in a positive way in the environment. And that can be really difficult, even if there's so much talent there, you know, someone who who is not engaged in a positive way in the process and also a passionate way.
00:45:26
Speaker
Sometimes someone can be so, so talented, but if they're not engaged, even in classwork, you know, sometimes it can be sort of like, do they want to be here? as a choreographer or as a teacher, you're sort of like, oh, I don't know that I want to work with someone who's like not wanting to be here because it creates a negative pocket in the room and it kind of can draw down the energy of the room. Whereas if you have a bunch of people who are like, yeah, let's figure out the partnering. Okay. What if you try this? And like, There's this like positivity around it. And I think I was always that person in the dance space is like creating solutions, building bridges. If someone was having a tough time, it's like, how can we help them out? Going over choreography with people who needed, had questions with the counts. Like that's such a great skill to have instead of like, okay, I'm just an independent person. I'm gonna sit back and like wait to be told what to do and like not care about the other people in the room, which you see, unfortunately.
00:46:19
Speaker
And so I try to sprinkle this in when I'm working even just in a ballet class with my college students, because i want to help them as they get into whatever type of dance career they want to get into. And even if it's not a dance career, like these skills of consistency, communication, and a positive attitude is like, it'll take you so, so far.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah. So those are probably the things that I try to drive home with them. Last question for you.
Advice for Aspiring Dancers
00:46:50
Speaker
What advice would you give to an aspiring dancer who's pursuing their professional career?
00:46:54
Speaker
Great question. I think what we were talking about earlier about there's going to be a lot of no's, there's going to be a lot of rejections. And it's so hard in that moment to not take it personally because you're like, this is my life.
00:47:08
Speaker
This is everything I've been working for since I was a child and I've worked every day of my life for this. And then right now in this quick moment, you're saying no, or you're cut.
00:47:20
Speaker
And that can be devastating. Prepping yourself for, okay, yes, there are going to be these no's coming in, but one, two, three, four, five no's doesn't mean forever no.
00:47:32
Speaker
And sometimes you just have to find your right people, you the right choreographer, the right environment that you're really going to click in. And sometimes it takes people a long time. And I think it's sometimes challenging for college students because they're like, oh, I did this four additional years of really intense training.
00:47:50
Speaker
It should happen right away. and I wish it did. i really wish it did. But sometimes it doesn't. That can be a really frustrating moment. But prepping yourself and just saying,
00:48:01
Speaker
Yeah, there's going to be no's and maybe even sharing with your other friends, keeping that open communication so that you don't feel alone in your no. And you're like, okay, so-and-so had a no, so-and-so had a no. Oh, and then my friend got a yes.
00:48:13
Speaker
That's so exciting for them. Okay, one day I'm going to get my yes and to keep trying. But if we don't show up for the auditions, if we don't apply, if we don't say, hey, I'm interested in choreographing for your company,
00:48:26
Speaker
People don't know. They're not going to just pluck you out of an environment. Sometimes it happens. And that's the thing I think that becomes frustrating is like dancers or choreographers see people that are just handpicked out of situations.
00:48:40
Speaker
And those are rare. Those are rare and saying like, that is a rare special case. And just because I'm not getting plucked out and just chosen without even auditioning without even applying that is rare going through the process going through all of that is going to make you stronger. It's going to give you grit, it's gonna give you perseverance, all these things that are gonna help you stay longer and not burn out.
00:49:07
Speaker
Because sometimes also I've seen people get plucked out and chosen and they burn out in different ways because maybe they didn't have this intense period of the work of getting chosen that makes you so strong.
00:49:23
Speaker
It makes you so resilient because you keep getting up, you keep getting up, you keep getting up. I find that also interesting. So sometimes people say, oh, these no's are negative. This means a negative thing about me.
00:49:36
Speaker
But the flip side, like me being the optimist, positive person is like, no, that's actually teaching you things about how to get up again, because there's always going to be challenges coming your way. So it's like that no is teaching me how to take care of myself when it's hard. That no is teaching me how to push a little bit harder, be a little bit braver.
00:49:58
Speaker
go for that next thing, have that courage that then i think makes you even a richer artist because you have all of this work that you did to arrive on that stage.
00:50:10
Speaker
And it wasn't just that someone just picked you. That's the optimist version of all of the no's and all of the rejections, but the positive attitude is so important.
00:50:22
Speaker
So, so important because it's easy to get dark and it's easy to get negative. when there are all those no's coming in. Yeah, you've got to maintain that optimism in the face of all of it or else it's going to get too heavy. Yeah.
00:50:35
Speaker
So good, Michelle. This is amazing. If any dancers want to learn more about you or your work, where can they find you? couple places. So my Instagram, which is Michelle underscore Thompson underscore Ulrich.
00:50:50
Speaker
which is my married last name, U-L-E-R-I-C-H. I have all of my teaching happening there, choreography, things happening. If you want to reach me personally, I'm okay with email. And that is Michelle...
00:51:02
Speaker
dot u l e r i c h at gmail.com and you can even email me there and sign up for my i do a monthly newsletter which has like all of my classes and shows and opportunities that are happening i'm currently working on my website right now i did have a website and then it felt like I stopped updating it like March of 2020 because I just got so busy directing a dance company and managing that through COVID that it seemed like my website kind of like just stopped.
00:51:32
Speaker
And so I'm currently updating it. A friend is helping me. So I don't have that ready yet, but when it is ready, I'm going to put it on my Instagram bio. But yeah, those are the main places. And the big show that I'm working on has its own Instagram as well. And that's called Dinner Party Project NYC with underscores in between each each of those words.
00:51:53
Speaker
I'd love to connect. Perfect. I'll put that all in the show notes for any dancers looking to see. And thank you so much, Rochelle. This was a great conversation. I really learned a lot from you and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
00:52:08
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:52:21
Speaker
By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your reigns help others discover the show too.
00:52:34
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.