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69. Listening to your Body with “The Therapist who Moves You”, Erica Hornthal
184 Plays20 days ago
In this episode, I sit down with Erica Hornthal, licensed clinical professional counselor and board-certified dance/movement therapist, to explore the transformative power of movement for emotional and mental health. Known as “The Therapist Who Moves You”, Erica shares how dance and movement therapy can help us reconnect to our bodies, regulate the nervous system, and rewire patterns shaped by trauma, stress, and perfectionism.
We unpack misconceptions about dance therapy, the challenges dancers face in balancing technique with authenticity, and how to foster embodied practices for healthier, more resilient artistry. Erica also offers a simple grounding exercise you can try right now, and opens up about her books Body Aware and Body Talk, which provide practical tools for cultivating body awareness and self-expression.
Whether you’re a professional dancer, a teacher, or simply someone curious about somatic healing, this conversation will inspire you to embrace movement as more than performance - it’s a pathway to self-discovery, healing, and joy.
Key Points in this Episode:
- What dance/movement therapy is and how it differs from a dance class
- How our bodies hold unspoken stories, patterns, and emotions
- Why embodiment enhances artistic performance
- Ways to nurture creativity in young dancers without stifling expression
- Common misconceptions about dance therapy (hint: you don’t need to be a dancer to benefit!)
- How movement can support healing from trauma, anxiety, and burnout
- Practical advice for teachers on creating trauma-informed, person-first dance spaces
- A simple leaning exercise you can use anytime to feel grounded and supported
Connect with Erica:
WEBSITE: www.ericahornthal.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/the.therapist.who.moves.you
Links and Resources:
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Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
1-1 CAREER MENTORING: book your complimentary career call
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Expressive Dance: The Key to Greatness
00:00:00
Speaker
I struggle with when people say, you know, like, that doesn't belong here. Leave that at the door. We can't leave ourselves at the door. We can ignore. right? We can deny, we can suppress, but we can't actually, because that would be leaving our body and we don't actually ever leave our body. Our body is what's coming into the studio with us.
00:00:19
Speaker
So I think it's much more powerful to highlight and foster this healthy connection with our inherent expression and understand that that can actually be what makes a great dancer.
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:49
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast.
Erica's Journey: From Dancer to Therapist
00:01:10
Speaker
I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Erica Hornthal. Erica is a licensed clinical professional counselor, board certified dance movement therapist,
00:01:20
Speaker
and founder of Chicago Dance Therapy. Known as a therapist who moves you, Erica has truly changed the way people see movement with regard to mental health. Erica, I'm so excited to learn more about your work today.
00:01:32
Speaker
Before we get into all the nitty gritty, could you just tell us a little bit more about your background and how you became a dance and movement therapist? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I was very excited to see brainy ballerina come across my email. I was like, yes, let's talk about that. So i feel like I tell the story and there's always kind of a little, the perspective changes a little bit each time I tell it.
00:01:57
Speaker
But being on a brainy ballerina podcast, I think I can speak mostly to my passion and love for dance. I have been a dancer since... Well, I would argue we're all dancers, but I think my love for dance and movement, more performative in a studio started at around four.
00:02:17
Speaker
I was in like your typical ballet, jazz, tap class. Regardless of what other sports or arts I tried, i always came back to dance.
00:02:30
Speaker
I remember doing gymnastics, came back to dance. I remember doing swimming, came back to dance. And then once I was in middle school, high school and college, it was really important to me to continue dancing.
00:02:44
Speaker
And i wasn't sure what that was going to look like. You know, everybody's talking about what do you want to do? What's your career? And I always knew that professional dance just didn't feel like it was going to fit for me.
00:02:56
Speaker
But the only other thing that was really presented was owning a studio, which God bless studio owners, but that is definitely not in the cards for me either. And was like, there has to be more.
00:03:07
Speaker
So the story goes, I actually went as a freshman, I went to the University of Florida, who thankfully did not make you audition to get into the dance major program at the time. You went in and then kind of got about two or three months to kind of get your bearings and then met with, you know, the powers that be and kind of discussed what your future was going to look like. And then there was kind of like this informal audition process.
00:03:32
Speaker
It may be very different now, but it was really through that that I was able to kind of secure my positioning as a dancer, as a someone who used dance and movement in their professional career.
00:03:44
Speaker
but at the same time, realized like, okay, i don't want to teach. I don't want to lecture on this. I don't want to be you know in dance education. I don't see myself performing. And it was the director of, or the chair of that department that first uttered the words dance movement therapist.
00:04:00
Speaker
University of Florida has a wonderful arts and medicine program, which is at Shands Hospital on campus. And so she had really done the research. She knew all about the field. I had never heard of it before.
00:04:11
Speaker
Still, you know, many people have not heard about it. And so thanks to her, i was able to marry my passion and love for dance and movement with my love and interest for helping people, most specifically emotionally.
00:04:25
Speaker
And I really never looked back after that. I just declared myself a psych major. actually ended up transferring to us so to different schools just because I wanted to be closer to my family. That landed me in Chicago. And then I went on right to get my master's in dance movement therapy and counseling.
00:04:42
Speaker
It was right place, right time. We in the field talk about how the career found us, not how we found it. So it really just kind of felt as cliche as it is, like destiny, you know, and I never looked back. I've just continued to do it and work and create more awareness so that people like me can find the field ah sooner than college.
Understanding Dance Movement Therapy
00:05:03
Speaker
So for any dancers or listeners who are not familiar, can you explain to us what exactly is dance or movement therapy? Yeah, so dance movement therapy is a niche psychotherapy that utilizes body awareness, movement, dance, what we've come to know a little bit more is somatics, even nervous system regulation, as well as for some therapists, talk therapy.
00:05:28
Speaker
to help support emotional, social, cultural, spiritual, physical aspects of an individual. So those was a lot of words. What does it mean? to me, basically, it's like we are looking at all communication present in the therapeutic session.
00:05:44
Speaker
So it's not just the words that you're saying, it's the words you aren't saying. It's the expression of the body. It's your habits, your movement patterns, your rhythms.
00:05:56
Speaker
And my Passion in particular is really looking at people's movement patterns as they emerge in the session and looking to kind of rewire them. So it was almost like if you're telling a story and it's not ending the way you want it to, let's rewrite the story.
00:06:13
Speaker
But words alone are not enough to do that. So we can use different movement patterns to do that. Literally walking differently through the space or actually creating some type of movement flow.
00:06:26
Speaker
Maybe it's a choreography, but I think it's really important for people to know that the movement does not really come from the therapist. It is an organic process that most likely, first and foremost, is coming from the person in the room, the client, the expressor, the patient, whatever word you choose to use.
00:06:45
Speaker
So it's very different from a dance class or what we're seeing now is like somatic dance or somatic movement because the goal isn't what the body looks like.
00:06:57
Speaker
It is what it feels like. And those can be very small micro movements that really only you, the person experiencing it, can feel. So if I'm a dancer and I come to see you like what's the first thing but we would do? What's the process look like?
00:07:13
Speaker
Pretty typically, my process is going to be verbal to begin with. because most of the clients coming to me are very much in their headspace, as a lot of dancers are. you know Even though we're very physical, we can really outthink a lot of our movement.
00:07:32
Speaker
We're very much in our head, trying to calm ourselves down or push ourselves through. So as we say in kind of therapy circles, meet the client where they are.
00:07:43
Speaker
there's someone to come into my office, even someone who is a dancer, maybe a professional dancer even, i don't want to assume that they're an embodied dancer. They may actually be very disconnected from what they feel in their body.
00:07:56
Speaker
So I tend to start with more verbal assessments. What's going on? What brings you here today? What are some concerns that you have? What are the goals that you're looking to achieve?
00:08:07
Speaker
Why did you come to movement therapy? i usually have a pretty good idea, but I want to hear from them. Within the first session, i will also do basically a movement assessment, which when we say that, sometimes it sounds like exercise or it sounds like, you know, a physical therapist kind of checking on our range of motion, you know, your strength, your balance, et cetera.
00:08:27
Speaker
For me, again, it really goes back to getting an understanding of what movement patterns you're bringing into the room and getting an understanding also of how they're showing up psychologically.
00:08:38
Speaker
So it's a very simple assessment. We go through what we call the dimensional scale, which is really just moving up and down, out and across, forward and back. For anybody with physical limitations, we can do it in a chair. We can do it standing up. I've even done it laying down.
00:08:55
Speaker
So that's really the first session. And then we go from there. yeah What kind of things are you looking for? Like, what are you seeing that shows you how dancers or any person is holding
Body Wisdom: A Path to Self-Awareness
00:09:07
Speaker
what's going on in their brain, in their body?
00:09:09
Speaker
Sure. Well, let me give you an example. So I've had, thinking like, you know, of an individual in particular, right? Came to my office, ah was not a professional dancer, but identified as a dancer and had been dancing her whole life. And actually since having children had kind of like backed away from dance for various reasons.
00:09:28
Speaker
and was really feeling like she had lost herself, right? Lost a connection to herself. So what does this look like in the assessment? It can be very difficult to move in the vertical because vertical, like reaching up to the sky and reaching down to the floor, psychologically equates to sense of self. It can be our core values, our beliefs, what we feel or what we've been taught to feel.
00:09:55
Speaker
So when we're really disconnected from that and feel like we've lost our sense of self, it doesn't mean that we can't reach up, you know, to the thing on the top shelf. But when we're really moving mindfully and trying to connect to our spine, it doesn't feel natural.
00:10:10
Speaker
So I had her go through these motions and I said, you know, which ones felt more accessible to you? And for her, it was the reaching out because she was very familiar with being social.
00:10:23
Speaker
It was like, I'm around people all the time. I'm always in these mom and me groups and I'm always doing things for my kids and my husband and et cetera, et cetera. I don't know what it's like to be with myself anymore. And it's very uncomfortable because So being in the up and down, really having to move through my spine was not a familiar sensation for me anymore.
00:10:41
Speaker
So that clues me into, okay, this is where we're going to start some of our movement piece. Or as we're talking through things that have been really difficult, we're going to make sure that we're accessing our vertical, we're moving our spine, we're creating some resilience in the core so that we start to tap into our felt experience. Like, where am I in this situation?
00:11:00
Speaker
Where am I in this tension or this conflict? So hopefully that gives an idea of like, how are we moving the body to assess, to observe, and then to also intervene in the psychological processes that are happening.
00:11:14
Speaker
Can you talk about what makes this movement and using all the different pieces together such a powerful tool for a person compared to solely isolating the talk therapy portion?
00:11:26
Speaker
Well, so at the root of it, we have to be at a pretty advanced level. cognitive level, i say, to have a lot of self-awareness.
00:11:37
Speaker
And even then, we can still like circumnavigate that, right? We can talk ourselves into things, talk ourselves out of things. And so it doesn't mean that people aren't able to have that level of self-awareness, but for a lot of us, our self-awareness is in our movement. It is in our bodies.
00:11:56
Speaker
And So you know if you have someone that is developmentally different, delayed, has physical or intellectual differences, to expect them to talk about things, to have self-awareness, is actually doing them and yourself a disservice.
00:12:14
Speaker
But if we say, look, the body has wisdom, right? The body has this experience. It is going through life. It is able to express when things are off, right? Or when things are feeling aligned, then we're giving someone the potential to express themselves.
00:12:30
Speaker
So i think it's a really important tool that's been missing. It's more than just semantics. It's more than just trying on a breath or a pose to feel better or to release tension,
00:12:41
Speaker
It's really looking at like how each individual body is designed to express itself. And while there's commonalities, it's very different for each individual as well. So dance in any way, shape, or form, I think is wonderful for the brain, and it's great to express ourselves.
00:13:00
Speaker
But it is sometimes that missing piece, right? Because we're relying so much on cognition. The minute that we can speak, we do. More recently, I'm like been a little bit more connected to the adult dancers, you know, and feeling like they're missing a huge part of themselves because they stopped dancing.
00:13:19
Speaker
And when they start dancing as an adult, it brings back the childlike innocence. It brings back sometimes negative experiences, but for the most part, it brings back this freedom. And you can't get that with just talking.
00:13:32
Speaker
I have a question for you that's sort of about dance training, if you have any thoughts about this. Because i talked about this with another guest on my podcast, and I've still been thinking about it constantly, about how children, you know, my kids, they're born dancing. Movement is so natural. They hear music, they dance.
00:13:50
Speaker
You teach kids in your creative movement class, they hear music, you give them a scarf, they dance around. And then and the effort to create really beautiful technicians and beautiful dancers in that way, we eliminate a lot of that instinctual creativeness and dancing that the dancers have. And then at some point we say to them, okay, now use your artistry.
00:14:13
Speaker
Now really dance. And I'm so guilty of this, you know, because I've, that's how I was kind of trained was like, you know, you have to go through the positions. And I still believe that, you know, if you want to dance at high level, know,
00:14:25
Speaker
you know, in ballet or any style, you have to learn the technique, of course. But what are your thoughts on how we can do this in a more embodied way so that we're not separating everything so completely and then coming back later and saying, now be embodied?
00:14:41
Speaker
I definitely have lots of thoughts on that. The first thing that popped into my mind was actually, again, this is kind of geared toward more like your adult dancer, but I had posted something a few weeks ago that said, the adult who is too self-conscious to dance was a child who was ridiculed for being expressive, you know, because this is kind of what happens. Like maybe we're three, four, even five and we're dancing and it's cute and all look, you know, he loves this. She loves that.
00:15:08
Speaker
It's adorable. And then maybe we're like, oh, this
Balancing Technique and Creativity in Dance
00:15:12
Speaker
child is born to be a dancer. I'm going to put them in a formal dance class. And I mean this in the nicest way possible. It almost starts to stifle their inherent creativity.
00:15:23
Speaker
because now we're starting to put parameters on how dance should look. And that's not a bad thing. I'm a product of that too. And there's a part of that that I love. I think we have to make sure that we're balancing it.
00:15:36
Speaker
You know, that the creative child that got into that dance class, we have to make sure that we're raising that spirit along with the technical dancer. So honestly, as hard as this is, that for me looks like maybe doing things outside of dance.
00:15:53
Speaker
So that it isn't all I'm doing is dance because I love dance all the time. But I talk about it as building a robust movement vocabulary. Because moving in as many ways as possible, as many rhythms, as many flows, as many timings, syncopation, steadiness, balance, that's what's going to build that really resilient dancer.
00:16:16
Speaker
not just the skills and the technique and the turns and like being in the studio eight hours a day. So for little kids, that might be like we take one or two dance classes and we're getting the basics and we're learning how to be a dancer in a studio or on a stage, but maybe we're also taking that creative dance class down the street or that enrichment class that the school is offering.
00:16:41
Speaker
Maybe they start to take up martial arts or art. art Singing, dancing, but sorry, singing, I was gonna say drawing, dancing came out, of course. Other ways to express ourselves so that we're not stifling the creative spirit.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then as we get older as dancers in a studio, hopefully we have educators that are not therapizing the students, but are aware enough to say, hey, your dancing is changed.
00:17:09
Speaker
And I'm wondering if maybe there's a psychological piece to that. You know, what's going on? you need to talk to someone? What's going on at school, right? Are you overscheduled? Are you overstressed?
00:17:19
Speaker
Like we need to be dancing with the whole person. ah struggle with when people say, you know, like that doesn't belong here. Leave that at the door. We can't leave ourselves at the door.
00:17:30
Speaker
We can ignore ourselves. right? We can deny, we can suppress, but we can't actually, because that would be leaving our body and we don't actually ever leave our body. Our body is what's coming into the studio with us.
00:17:42
Speaker
So I think it's much more powerful to highlight and foster this healthy connection with our inherent expression and understand that that can actually be what makes a great dancer.
00:17:54
Speaker
Like I can't tell you how many people are afraid, like dancers especially, are afraid to try embodiment or somatic therapies because they're afraid it's going to affect their performance.
00:18:06
Speaker
But at the end of the day, it actually enhances it. It might actually teach you to have better boundaries, which can feel scary because we may say no to a part that feels life-changing, right? And someone else gets it because we're taking care of ourselves in a way maybe we didn't before.
00:18:22
Speaker
but It's actually a win when you're able to say no to something that your body doesn't need. Yeah. As dancers, our training almost makes us disembodied. Yes. Like we're taught to ignore pain. We're taught to ignore what we're feeling. Like you said, leave it at the door and come in.
00:18:39
Speaker
i mean, athletes, sports. ye Yeah. Yeah. So as teachers, how can we work with our students to help them use what they're feeling and use what's going on in their dancing?
00:18:52
Speaker
Like not ignoring it, but also recognizing that we are coming in. We have a job to do today. So like how do we incorporate what's going on without repressing it, but also not saying like every time we have a hard day, we just don't dance.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, no. Actually, on the contrary, it's like when we have hard days, those are the days we need to be dancing, right? Yeah. But I think that comes from like a healthy dance practice outside of the studio or outside of the performance, you know, so dancing for you, not just dancing for others.
00:19:21
Speaker
But the other thing that comes to mind is treating our dancers like they're people, like people first, dancers second. Again, it doesn't mean that you as the educator need to be their therapist.
00:19:32
Speaker
But we can give our students maybe a few minutes at the beginning, even while they're stretching or warming up, to also think about their mental health, right?
00:19:42
Speaker
What is your mood like today? I ask the question, how are you moving? So we're not worried about thinking or feeling, but it's like, ask your students how they're moving today. How have you moved until you got into the studio? Because if you're really rigid tense, it's going to show up in the dance class.
00:19:59
Speaker
And it's not to shame, but to just for everybody to be aware. Like I'm having a really hard day today. And so when my instructor sees that my turns are a little tighter or my balance is a little off or I'm not as loose or fluid in my movement, it's not because I'm failing. It's not because I'm not reaching my full potential.
00:20:23
Speaker
It's just because of what life has brought in today, you know? And it's not an excuse. We're not trying to poo-poo or, oh, it's fine. Just sit on the, yeah you know, just sit down and here's a pillow and a, I don't know, hoodie, you know? like But we're saying, like, I see that you're struggling.
00:20:40
Speaker
Is there some way that I can help? If I can't, then maybe someone else can. And is it just today? Like if it's just a one-off, like we all have bad days, you can also use it as a way to assess, is this regularly happening?
00:20:52
Speaker
Is this what you thought of as a kind of star student really starting to struggle? Why are we shaming them or kicking them out when maybe these are all the signs that they're asking for help? I think it's our responsibility as movement educators to, again, treat them as people, not just as dancers.
00:21:10
Speaker
And it's kind of a taboo conversation because if we show any weakness, right, or any inability to perform our job for the day, we get kicked to the curb and someone else comes in, most likely someone that's willing to sacrifice their mental health.
00:21:25
Speaker
You know, we're seeing it time and time again. These athletes, these high-achieving movers, they're not always the healthiest people, you know. And again, I'm not shaming them. It's just that I personally would rather dance into my eighty s than to have to stop dancing in my thirty s Let's quickly pause this episode so I can share with you one of my favorite snacks that I have been loving
Dance and Mental Health Integration
00:21:48
Speaker
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00:21:48
Speaker
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00:22:15
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00:22:28
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00:22:48
Speaker
Are there any other common misconceptions that you find people have about dance and movement therapy? Oh, I mean, about the field itself. Yeah, that it's only for kids. You know, it's like, oh, it's that it's fun.
00:23:00
Speaker
It must be so much fun what you do. Like, I mean, yeah. And Well, there is that session that I just had talking about grief and loss and anxiety and maybe, you know, self-harm, right? So it's it's not fun. Like then everybody would be in their bodies all the time. The reason we're not in our bodies is because it's painful.
00:23:20
Speaker
But yet bringing the body into the therapy session, we assume it's going to be fun. It's not. It's heavy. You know, it can be very heavy and overwhelming for the client especially. So um the misconception is that it's like a dance class, you know, and there's choreography. And i think those are the big ones that you have to be a dancer to participate, which couldn't be further from the truth that you have to like dance, that you have to be connected to your body.
00:23:44
Speaker
Now they are, but none of the clients that I've started with, I think were really ever connected to their body. Otherwise they wouldn't be searching for that connection. Another misconception is that you have to be a dancer or a dance educator or professional dancer to be a dance therapist.
00:23:59
Speaker
That also is not true. Ideally, you want to have a strong dance background or some movement practice that you've honed, you know crafted through your childhood and adolescence and young adulthood. But we are not the experts on your body. Only you are.
00:24:14
Speaker
So I can guide But it doesn't benefit me to have my fuete turns or triple pirouettes in the therapeutic studio because if my client can't do it, it doesn't really matter.
00:24:25
Speaker
How is this type of therapy really helping people who are struggling with, you mentioned anxiety, grief, burnout, trauma. How is it really helping them to work through these things and get to a more embodied place?
Healing Trauma Through Dance Movement
00:24:41
Speaker
So the way I've been putting it recently is trauma changes the brain, but so does dance. And so if you are someone that identifies with having trauma or yeah like you said, anxiety, fear, adverse childhood experiences, right?
00:24:58
Speaker
Actually, the best thing you can do is dance because it helps rewire and repattern the challenges that trauma has left, right? So We're looking at dance as a way to rewire, not as a way to escape.
00:25:14
Speaker
And that's very different. Being someone who danced to escape most of my young life, I didn't realize at the time that I was also rewiring, you know, my habit to worry about everything.
00:25:27
Speaker
But also dance was sometimes perpetuating worrying about everything, you know, and that perfectionistic tendency. So i think the best thing we can do is dance.
00:25:37
Speaker
Sometimes it's changing our definition of what dance looks like, you know, and if dance is 40 hours a week in a studio, maybe that's not the beneficial definition anymore. You know, I think of dance as rhythmic expression of the body that expresses thought or idea.
00:25:53
Speaker
So how do I get back in touch with that? What is a movement that allows me to express my sadness And maybe in the studio, instead of always putting what we as the educator see as the emotion on the dancer, we ask them what they feel, right? What do you feel when you're dancing this part?
00:26:14
Speaker
Because if they say nothing or something counter to what we're asking them to do, it's a clue. It gives us information as to, okay, so you're feeling sadness when I want you to feel joy.
00:26:26
Speaker
What's something we can do for you to tap into your own joy and then use that in the performance, right? We're not changing the choreography, but we're saying, this is where I connect to my joy. Now I'm going to bring it into the movement, right?
00:26:40
Speaker
Otherwise you're having this counter experience and then it just creates frustration and resentment. And it's just, it creates more tension, which makes it harder to move. So i think looking at different ways of dancing, if all you've ever done is ballet and that's your profession, great. You have a skillset in that, but emotionally, mentally, even cognitively, there is resilience to trying on other dance forms and that will ultimately benefit you. You will be a better performer. You will be a better person, which makes you a better dancer on the stage.
00:27:13
Speaker
<unk>s actually nothing to be afraid of. It's just we fear what we don't know. you know And it's like, I don't want to mess with what's going on in this body, even if that means that I've been ignoring it for so long. And the scariness of like, I have to pay attention to it now. What if it tells me to stop?
00:27:28
Speaker
What if I have a breakdown mid-class? you know Okay, it happens. Again, like being the educator that says human first, dancer second, hopefully allows whatever that experience is to happen.
00:27:41
Speaker
it doesn't derail the performance. We don't stop the entire class, but we can say like, I see you're struggling. Take five, you know, take a few minutes. Let me know when you can come back.
00:27:51
Speaker
We're not enabling bad behavior. We're actually supporting really positive emotional behavior. Well, and it makes sense like if you have a dancer, even just physically, who has had some compensatory pattern where they're doing something incorrectly, but they've gotten really comfortable with that. And then you give them a correction and it feels so weird and then they can't do the movement at all.
00:28:11
Speaker
But you're like, it's going to feel bad until it feels really good. Yeah. So you can kind of live in this place where you're like, I've gotten used to it, so it's okay. But you'll never be able to do more turns or more advanced things. You're going to stick there. So I kind of i can see like the parallels. Yeah.
00:28:26
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That makes me think of like discomfort. I mean, look at the way i think the profession of dance, at least in the United States, has kind of presented itself. I mean, we're doing more tricks than ever.
00:28:37
Speaker
you know, like I look at dance now and I'm like, I can't do half of that stuff. And I don't know what I want to maybe. I mean, it looks amazing. And if the dancers are emotionally and physically healthy, power to them.
00:28:51
Speaker
Don't stop. you know, if it's something that you truly love, but we've gotten into like such a dance in some ways is trauma. It's like too much, too soon, too fast. I'm not saying don't do it. Obviously I'm here to say, keep dancing, but we want to do it in a way that actually doesn't perpetuate the trauma, but actually supports the rewiring of it.
00:29:10
Speaker
Getting into the studio and and almost embracing the discomfort is actually a really big growing point because I don't think a lot of what our dancers are doing today was originally comfortable.
00:29:22
Speaker
right? Like at some point you had to embrace the fear, throw yourself into that extra turn, flip over and fall. You know, it's like none of us were born doing some of these amazing tricks and feats. It took a lot of hours and time and energy to get there.
00:29:38
Speaker
But just because something feels uncomfortable or foreign, sometimes that's where the growing point is, you know? And honestly, that can be, well yeah, I could do four turns, but I'm actually going to do one clean single.
00:29:51
Speaker
And What does that mean? What comes up for me when I'm not performing to my fullest ability and I'm going back to a basic or I'm conserving my energy? Just because we can do something doesn't mean it's appropriate in that moment. you know So can we kind of pull back, put on the brakes a little bit right and allow ourself to dance simply from time to time?
00:30:15
Speaker
I don't know. It's hard for a lot of people. Like, I don't know. I watch things on TV sometimes and I'm like, where's the musicality in that? Where's the story? All I'm seeing is tricks and disconnect.
00:30:26
Speaker
Like I just, I just, I see a dancer that is not connected to their body. It's a marvel, right? It's like amazing to watch sometimes, but I'm like, that wasn't a performance.
00:30:37
Speaker
It was, it was entertainment. So I think as dancers and as dance educators, it's just like, We're at these crossroads, right? Like what are we sacrificing just so that it looks spectacular?
00:30:49
Speaker
Right. And I feel like it's just getting harder with social media because younger dancers are seeing so many things. that Like that's what I want to do. And as teachers, we're like, no, no, no, just let's focus on the basics first. But it is hard to convince. It's not flashy. It's not as exciting, but it is going to keep you dancing, like you said, into your Right.
00:31:08
Speaker
right You know, like I love to look back at um like videos, musicals, movies, right? From like forty s the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, you know, maybe even like the eighty s part of the 90s. But like when you look at the movements, I think overall they're so much simpler, but they were filled with so much style.
00:31:31
Speaker
You know, like you could feel the dancers' passion coming through. And I miss that. you know, I think that's why, comy old fashioned, I guess, although I always loved watching those things, but just want to go back to like watching Fosse, you know, watching Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. And like, it wasn't easy what they were doing, but there was a simplicity to some of the flow And allows the style to come through. And yet it's intricate at the same time. Not to say that they were having an easy time doing any of that.
00:32:04
Speaker
I don't know. That to me is like the resilience piece. And we have this range where like, yeah, maybe on one spectrum I can flips and turns and all of these tricks. But can I also go to the other end of the spectrum where I can do three or four basic movements and also sell it to you, right? Yeah. Show you how passionate and connected I am to what I'm doing.
00:32:26
Speaker
I don't think that exists very much these days. And I will say I danced professionally for nine years and I never had to do a flip or a crazy trick. Like, you know, my first three years I was standing in B+. plus huh These things that you see a lot, the professional world is not necessarily doing those things.
00:32:45
Speaker
Right. Not all the time anyway. Yeah. Because I mean, if hey if we're trying to be inclusive, body positive, not everybody's built to do that. you know So it's like not everybody can, not everybody will, not everybody wants to.
00:33:00
Speaker
Yes. Is it going to mean that there are some jobs that aren't going to be for you? Okay. But that's the reality rather than seeing that as a a limitation, set it as a limit, but right? Like I choose this limit for myself so that I can have a career, right? Or I can move in ways that feel healthy and aligned, right? With like my passion, my purpose, my meaning. Is dance always going to be enjoyable?
00:33:24
Speaker
No, probably not. When something becomes a job, we have to be really, really careful that we don't lose our passion for it. We can. We absolutely can. Our whole identity can be wrapped up in that.
00:33:34
Speaker
So the thought of taking it away means I lose myself, right? If I'm not dancing in this cast because this is who I am, i don't know who I am without it, you know? So we're also talking about building dancers that have identity outside of dance itself.
00:33:49
Speaker
And that's where you can use movement and even aspects of dance to help build those healthy relationships. Mm-hmm. If you're enjoying this episode, then you're going to love the Brainy Ballerina Book Club.
00:34:02
Speaker
I have been an avid reader for as long as I can remember. i am fascinated by other stories, and I am always applying the lessons I learn in books to my own life, both personally and professionally.
00:34:13
Speaker
What started out as sharing my currently reading list on Instagram stories has since grown into a full-fledged book club with hundreds of members. Each month, we dive into a new story thoughtfully chosen to inspire and challenge us with original ideas and experiences.
00:34:29
Speaker
Whether you are an avid reader or looking to get into the habit, the Brainy Ballerina Book Club welcomes you with open arms. It's free to join and there is no catch. Just a community of dance lovers who are eager to expand our knowledge, feed our souls, and make meaningful connections.
00:34:45
Speaker
Head on over to the show notes to join the book club today. You did mention oftentimes dance can be traumatic and maybe that is where the root of your trauma has come from. Whether it's just the art of dance itself, like we've been saying, it's very difficult.
00:35:01
Speaker
Or if there was some traumatic events, maybe you worked with a teacher or a director or somebody who caused harm in your life.
Reclaiming Safety and Stability Through Movement
00:35:09
Speaker
If you have a dancer who's experienced those things, they come to you, how are they able to use dance and movement to work through this when that was so tied to their trauma? Yeah, that's such a good question. And I think a reason that a lot of people shy away from it, right? Because they're like, if the trauma is dance, why would I lean into that?
00:35:30
Speaker
I'm going to start with everything else, right? I'm just going to talk through it. But, you know, as we know, our body hold on to all of these memories, all these experiences. So using movement in a way that allows us to reclaim our sense of safety, i use the word security and stability because maybe someone took our sense of safety from us, you know, and we feel like we're never going to get it back or our relationship to safety has completely changed.
00:35:59
Speaker
But we can use movement stability, we can use a way of sensing security, right, in our environment, in our immediate surroundings, in ourself, to help rebuild that connection.
00:36:14
Speaker
So we're not just going right into, okay so this dance class caused your trauma, exposure therapy, right? Let's just recreate a a ballet class right now and tell me what you're feeling as it comes up. Like, no, that would be to me re-traumatizing the client. And that's not necessary.
00:36:33
Speaker
I want to know what you're connected to right now, right? What are you aware of in your body? What are you afraid of to connect to? It could be certain movements that we replicate.
00:36:44
Speaker
that bring up that embodied memory. So it isn't that we're trying to avoid those things, but we are trying to look at recreating our movement vocabulary.
00:36:55
Speaker
What are the movements that feel safe and secure? and we keep doing those, right? We explore different musicality, different space, different time, different rhythm, different flow.
00:37:08
Speaker
And then bit by bit, we start to expand that movement vocabulary, you know? And so we are... reconnecting to ourselves through movement, not dwelling on what someone took away from us.
00:37:21
Speaker
Again, it looks a lot of different ways sometimes with dancers in particular or individuals who are traumatized by dance. We're really just looking at using movement as a pedestrian. Show me how you walk, right? Let's walk around the room.
00:37:33
Speaker
Then we might explore like inner child stuff. What does it look like to be three again? How do you remember moving as a kid? Or when you see kids, how do they move? And we're jumping and twisting and twirling and rolling. And, you know, so we're tapping back into those innate movements that allow us to say everybody's a dancer, right? Everybody dances when they're little and not focusing just on the performative part, you know, the part that someone's judging or telling us is good or bad.
00:38:01
Speaker
It's all good. It's all expressive. So we're just finding those ways to feel, again, that sense of safety or security or stability with our own movement. And it's hard. It can take a long time.
00:38:13
Speaker
But on the other hand, I've also seen people move with freedom that they didn't think they'd have in a very short period of time. Do you work with dancers who you see are able to take this feeling and this ah emotion that they're learning with you and take it into, say, a professional ballet environment?
00:38:31
Speaker
like How are they transferring these skills into a place where it is like, okay, you have to have your foot pointed a certain way, you have to stay in line, but still be able to feel what you've been working on.
00:38:42
Speaker
Sure. So, I mean, I can't particularly speak to like the technical side of things, right? Like when I'm with clients, we're not working on, you know, pointed toes and turned out feet, like actually might be doing the opposite, you know, i'm kind of like, just let your foot do whatever feels natural.
00:38:58
Speaker
So that to me is the dance educators part of like, that's what they know, right? That's how they can help hopefully in a trauma informed way, support the structure, right? And the technical the technical side of the dancing.
00:39:11
Speaker
The thought that came to mind when you were asking the question is method dancing. and So like we have method acting, right? Where, and I mean, I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but just having awareness of it, right?
00:39:23
Speaker
They say like, take an experience that you've had in your real life, right? And apply it to the role that you're trying to play. think we can do that with dance. We can kind of method dance, right? so We're not trying it on. We're actually saying like, this is the confidence that I feel at home when I'm with my kids having a good time or speaking my needs at my other job, right?
00:39:49
Speaker
I'm going to take that sense of confidence, that feeling, that embodied really strong connection to my center or connection to my chest. Maybe my chin's held high. Like those are the things, again, if I'm trying to conjure, let's say confidence that I want to bring into the dance studio.
00:40:08
Speaker
Right. And then that stays with me. That is like my structure. That is my blueprint, so to speak. And then, you know, you say, okay, turn out here, point here. it's not ideally going to shatter what I've brought into the room because that comes with me wherever I go.
00:40:25
Speaker
So I've worked extensively with actually a few people on this, especially like confidence and boundaries and a lot of fear, you know, self doubt that just overshadows everything.
00:40:38
Speaker
And when we're actually able to learn to drop into our body and just be present to the experience, It changes everything. I've had clients say they're so hard on themselves and months go by i'm kind of working together and they're in the studio. And it's like, not only did someone compliment them, which means they were able to actually move without self-doubt.
00:40:58
Speaker
but they're not doubting the compliment that they received. but so yeah Wow, double whammy, you know? So it can be done. It can absolutely be done. Again, I think it really comes down to how connected you are to that identity. It's not even letting go of the identity. It's like, are you willing to explore who you really are?
00:41:16
Speaker
knowing that dance may not be as big of a part as you think it is, that it can literally just be the thing that you do. you know, like you are more than just dance, even if you are a professional dancer, that's hard for a lot of people to embrace because they're like, no, no, I am dance.
00:41:31
Speaker
I live, eat and breathe dance. Like, okay maybe you do, but it really helps you to have other areas that you also identify with because then maybe you won't be so afraid of losing it.
00:41:43
Speaker
And then you'll actually be able to hold onto it much longer. Ah,
Body Awareness Tools: 'Body Aware' and 'Body Talk'
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah. Your first book was Body Aware. can you talk about what inspired you to write it and what you really hope readers are going to take away from this first book?
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah. So Body Aware was my, like, owed it to my clients that I was thinking I might never see again because yeah I wrote it during the pandemic. And it was kind of inspired by this workbook that I had created to give to my clients if I never saw them in person again.
00:42:12
Speaker
So it was based off of the body awareness for mental health workbook that I had created. Probably like a lot of other people. I sat down at my computer, I opened up Canva and just like worked through this template, you know?
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah. It was like 2019, like just a few months before lockdowns happened that i got literally like gotten an agent, proposed this idea for a book.
00:42:35
Speaker
And then yeah, for the first, what, like year of the pandemic, sat down and wrote it. yeah. When it became more of like, oh, wow, people outside of the field or outside of my office are going to see this, I really wanted people to walk away with, one who you are is how you move.
00:42:56
Speaker
And if you want to change aspects of who you are or how you think or how you behave, you have to change the way you move to do that. We cannot just think our way through things.
00:43:07
Speaker
And then of course, as you know trauma circles and conversations are developing, it was like, well, if you wanna rewire your trauma, you do that through movement. And that's not just taking a yoga class, but it's actually embodied awareness.
00:43:21
Speaker
So body aware was really like, how is my body showing up in the moments of tension? And how can I use my body to help or support myself moving through that tension and discomfort?
00:43:34
Speaker
So it's filled with practical things people can do, case studies of like basically body aware in action, and then kind of the methodology behind it. You know, what is dance therapy? And what do I use to connect with my clients?
00:43:50
Speaker
So I feel like it's much more like technical self-help book, you can definitely learn things from it right away, you know, so it's not too sciency. But the takeaways were people were always saying it was very, it made things very accessible. You know, it made movement more digestible and started that conversation of like redefining what movement was to people when everything was exercise, you know, well, movements dance. And if I didn't dance today, then I didn't move.
00:44:16
Speaker
Like, well, you're here, so you you must have moved somehow. You know, like, yeah what are the basics of movement? Because that's how we can reconnect to our our love or passion for dance too.
00:44:28
Speaker
Can you share more about your upcoming book, Body Talk? Yeah, so this summer I released Body Talk, which oddly enough, it was kind of like, almost like the precursor to Body Aware. And say that only because once I wrote Body Aware people like really received it more than I even expected,
00:44:47
Speaker
I was getting a whole other group saying like, this still doesn't make sense. Like, I get it. I have to listen to my body. How do I do that?
00:44:57
Speaker
And that's not really what body aware was about. It wasn't like training you to listen to your body. It was saying like, Hey, your body's talking, you you know, how do we become more aware of that? Right. Awareness around that.
00:45:08
Speaker
So they're like, okay, but I'm missing the connection to my body. So I'm not even aware because I i don't know what's happening. So in between those two, I had created this card deck, which really was more about the trauma and the anxiety, like just start moving your body in ways that calm it down.
00:45:25
Speaker
And so body talk is actually a journal. It's like, it's a daily attempt to connect to your body, which ultimately allows you to start listening to it more.
00:45:35
Speaker
And then when we have more dialogue with our body, then the awareness comes. We're like, oh, I'm aware that my body's really tight today. What does it need? Three shoulder circles. You know, it needs water. It needs rest.
00:45:48
Speaker
It needs time to manage this conflict with my best friend. So Again, it was almost like the predecessor, like the precursor to body aware. So one is very much the like sit down, self-help, just, you know, lots of information and material.
00:46:06
Speaker
The other is like just accountability, very simple movement practices, and it's very developmental. So you can open it up to any page that you want, or you could start at the beginning and it basically takes you through your developmental movement patterns. You know, so we're looking for what is movement?
00:46:22
Speaker
How do we regulate? How do we mobilize? How do we stabilize? All the way up to things of like, how do I work through this relationship? How do I secure attachments? How do I move my emotions?
00:46:33
Speaker
Those are so advanced and yet so many of us start there. So we have to give ourselves some grace and like, wait, there's lots of steps to go back to first. Don't just start moving emotions. Start with like, how does it feel to be in this emotion? How does my body move? Let it move. And then we realize,
00:46:51
Speaker
oh, this movement connects me to my joy, you know, or this is what I do when I'm really sad. you know, those early developmental movement experiences are what lend themselves to thought and thinking and these patterns that we've just learned to kind of take as truths.
00:47:08
Speaker
So what advice would you give to someone who's curious about trying dance or movement at therapy, but they don't really know where to start? Well, as far as like finding a practitioner, you know, go to Google searches, depending on where you are in the country or in the world, you can search different organizations that align with dance movement therapy. Like in America, we have the American Dance Therapy Association.
00:47:31
Speaker
So that's if you're like, okay, I'm ready to do this. I want to find a practitioner. If you're kind of skeptical about therapy or unsure of what that would look like, honestly, I think there's some wonderful resources out there, especially through social media, just learning to use your body as more expressive than performative.
00:47:49
Speaker
How do i regulate my body, get in touch with my nervous system, tools for reducing anxiety and stress? So you kind of get an idea of like what it looks like to have and a daily dialogue with your body, you know, prioritizing your body's needs and what it feels like, not just what it should look like.
00:48:09
Speaker
Therapy in general, if you just want more awareness and you want to work on like that personal development side, if you don't want to necessarily start right in with like formal dance movement therapy, you may be surprised that a lot of talk therapists in your area are already somatically trained, you know, so they're not doing dance therapy, but they are bringing in a body centered approach.
00:48:31
Speaker
And that's, I think a huge step compared to um more cognitively centered therapy. They're all beneficial. You know, I never want to like throw any one style under the bus, but It's just not as comprehensive if we're not bringing the body into the conversation.
00:48:46
Speaker
So yeah, it's kind of like start at your own comfort level. You don't have to jump into the deep end, even though I think as dancers, we're really good at doing that. you know Ease yourself into it because ultimately it's the relationship and it's the safety in the attachment that you feel that actually helps support the growth.
00:49:04
Speaker
Okay. So for people listening, can you give us one small like movement or practice that we could try today to connect more deeply with our bodies? Something we could do in this moment.
00:49:17
Speaker
Yeah. might go through like the Rolodex in my head of like, which one do I share? But you know what? The one that I always come back to, which I think is so surprising to people, but so helpful, is lean.
00:49:30
Speaker
Leaning. Resting. Pushing. So – either lean against the wall, or you can even make it simpler and just lay down. Like lay down on the dance studio floor, on a hardwood floor.
00:49:45
Speaker
While it might sound good to like lay on your sofa or your bed, it's supportive in different ways. So what we really want to feel is like the feedback, the firm support of the wall or the floor.
00:49:56
Speaker
And if we're talking to dancers, especially like get to the studio a little early and just lay on the Marley, like just lay on the ground and let the ground support you. It's so simple. It's almost like so simple that we forget to do it.
00:50:09
Speaker
you know, and you don't have to do anything. you don't have to journal anything. You don't have to ask any questions. you don't have to think of anything. I challenge you to lay down for 30 seconds and not feel more relaxed or supported when you stand up.
00:50:22
Speaker
Okay. It's so simple. It just, really is that simple. So try that and see what happens. If you're too uncomfortable laying down, then just lean against the wall, you know, and just practice allowing something to support you.
00:50:36
Speaker
right? Not having to hold it all together all the time, but just that physical feedback of like, this wall has got you, right? Something has got your back, literally. When you step away from the wall, it does feel very different. You carry yourself differently.
00:50:51
Speaker
Okay. Amazing. From your experience working with dancers specifically, if you could tell dancers who are pursuing a career one thing, what would you want them to know? always want people to know that there's life outside of performance.
00:51:04
Speaker
So if it is your lifelong dream and really lights you up to be on stage and to, you know, dance, whether it's an an ensemble or a principal role or musical theater, Broadway, like if that's what lights you up,
00:51:20
Speaker
Don't let anybody tell you that you can't do it. You know, it's like, that's so cliche. But, you know, if I had stuck with the like, oh, you need a backup or how are you going to make money? I would have let go of dance a long time ago, too, because I didn't see a future in it for me.
00:51:34
Speaker
So don't let go of dance if it is something you're truly passionate about, especially when it comes to like the performance side. On the other hand, don't let go of dance if there's some way to marry it with what your true passion is.
00:51:49
Speaker
So if you want to be a scientist, find a way to marry dance, like do dance medicine. You know, if you're really passionate about the anatomy side of dance, right, go into kinesiology and work with dancers.
00:52:01
Speaker
You know, I was really passionate about emotional and mental health, you know, and psychology. So thankfully, someone introduced me to the marriage of dance and psychotherapy, you know, and psychology, and I became a dance therapist. But there's so many ways to use psychology.
00:52:16
Speaker
dan in whatever field you find yourself drawn to, you know, so it doesn't have to just be science or arts. You can mix the science with the art. And I don't think a lot of people give themselves permission to do that.
00:52:31
Speaker
Absolutely. Erica, this has been amazing. If anybody listening wants to learn more about you and your work, where can we find you? Yeah, you can visit my website, ericahornthal.com.
00:52:44
Speaker
I'm mostly active on Instagram and my handle thetherapistwhomovesyou. You know, if you want to actually have a conversation, please feel free to DM me on Instagram. I answer all my messages. Yeah, other than that, my contact information is available on all those platforms too.
00:52:59
Speaker
Amazing. Thank you so much for all of this, Erica. I really appreciate all of your time and your wisdom today. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
00:53:10
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:53:22
Speaker
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00:53:36
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.