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74. Pivot for Dancer’s Kaylee Randall on Redefining Success Beyond the Stage
72 Plays10 hours ago
Today’s conversation is one that every dancer - current or retired - needs to hear. I’m joined by Kaylee Randall, a former professional dancer who spent nearly a decade performing on cruise ships, in theme parks, and in Las Vegas. After an incredible performing career, Kaylee made a bold move to Australia in 2018, where she founded Pivot for Dancers, a platform dedicated to helping professional dancers find meaning off the stage and confidently step into their next chapter.
In this episode, Kaylee opens up about what it was really like to leave the professional dance world behind and how her own experience navigating that transition inspired the creation of Pivot for Dancers. We talk about the identity crisis and imposter syndrome so many dancers face after retiring, and how starting these conversations can help dancers connect on a deeply human level.
Kaylee also shares practical advice for performers who might be wondering what’s next. She encourages dancers to explore hobbies outside of dance, connect with non-dancers, and start side projects that might someday turn into a new career path. We also discuss how to identify and articulate the transferable skills dancers already have and how those skills can apply to surprising new fields (including coding!).
This episode is a must-listen for anyone standing at the edge of a career pivot or curious about what life after dance can look like. Kaylee’s perspective is empowering, grounded, and refreshingly real, reminding us all that the end of one chapter can be the beginning of something even more meaningful.
Connect with Kaylee:
@pivotfordancers on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pivotfordancers/
Pivot for Dancers on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@pivotfordancers
Links and Resources:
Etoile Dance Competition: 10% off registration with code “BRAINY10” - https://www.etoilecomp.com/
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
This episode was brought to you by the Pivot Ball Change Network.
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Transcript
Introduction to Caitlin Sloan & Kaylee Randall
00:00:00
Speaker
And I'd been sort of thinking about wanting to talk to other dancers and be like, this is really hard, right? Like, even though I felt really ready to pivot, i had all of this stuff going on mentally where it was like the identity stuff. It was the, what do I even do next?
00:00:18
Speaker
How am I going to support myself? All of those things. And no one talks about it. You know, I felt really isolated from the dance community.
00:00:28
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina Podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brandy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Kaylee Randall. Kaylee is a former for professional dancer and the founder of Pivot for Dancers.
00:01:13
Speaker
a platform providing career resources to help professional dancers find meaning off the stage and confidently step into their next chapter. Kaylee, I want to get all into this idea of transitioning off the stage and everything that you do, but I would love just start by hearing a little bit about your professional career. I know you spent nearly a decade dancing professionally at theme parks, cruise ships in Las Vegas. So can you tell us a little bit about some of the highlights of your dance career?
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, hi, Caitlin. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. So I started my dance career in Orlando. So that's where the theme park sort of happened. I went to the University of Central Florida. So it was kind of a good place.
00:01:56
Speaker
part-time job to step
Kaylee's Dance Career Journey
00:01:58
Speaker
into. so i started part-time at Universal and eventually went full-time, dance captain the whole thing, went on to cruise ships with Royal car Caribbean, ended my career in Vegas. So i guess some of the highlights, when I think about it, it's always really about the people. So the casts that I was part of,
00:02:19
Speaker
You get obviously really close to your cast. And when I look back, those are a lot of memories that I really carry with me is the people that you meet and get to dance with and it's such a special connection.
00:02:33
Speaker
But I will also say that the shows that I did with Royal Caribbean were some of the highlights. I got to do a ballroom show, which was really fun but challenging.
00:02:44
Speaker
i remember the rehearsals for that were like, whoa, this is very difficult. Partnering and counting differently and all that stuff. But Yeah, the shows were really technical, really challenging. And i would say that that's a highlight as well, as well as traveling and all that fun stuff.
00:03:02
Speaker
Where's the coolest place that you travel to? Well, I only did the Caribbean. So I only did two contracts. So I i wish I would have been able to do maybe a European contract or...
00:03:14
Speaker
an Asian contract. There's some really cool ones, but I really loved Aruba. Like you can't really go wrong, you know, yeah but on the beach during the day, dancing at night. It was a pretty sweet deal.
00:03:27
Speaker
It's hard to live on a ship for that long, I will say. But, you know, looking back, it was some of the best times of my life for sure. What eventually inspired you to pivot and move to Australia?
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, so I live in Australia now. I'm originally from Florida. I met my boyfriend, now fiance, on cruise ships. so And he's from Brisbane, Australia. So we got together on ships and I was like wanting to quote unquote settle down, I guess, or at least...
00:04:01
Speaker
think about it, like allow that to be a possibility. But I was like, oh, I'm not quite done dancing. So I still had this idea of going to Vegas and doing kind of the showgirl thing or, you know, dancing in one of the Cirque shows. I had a few friends and like my cousins live out there. So I wanted to give that a try, so i went out to Vegas after i did cruise ships and didn't love it, to be honest. I loved the show, but I was just burnt out at that point.
00:04:35
Speaker
I remember my feet just really hurt. I could barely walk. You know, we're dancing in heels. I'm sure you know with like pointe shoes. It's like the worst possible shoes to dance in. That's what we dance professionally.
00:04:49
Speaker
So yeah, like my body was just really hurting. i was in a long distance relationship then where I was like, I kind of rather be doing that, like doing the, I don't know, it was like dreamier to be in a tiny apartment with this person versus trying to just add things to my resume. So and got to a point where I was like, what do I really want now?
00:05:15
Speaker
If I look into my future, do I want my future to be here at this show doing the same show over and over. Cause again, different from ballet, it's not like you're doing different shows throughout the season and year after year, you're kind of doing different shows. Like maybe you're doing Nutcracker every year, but generally each season is different with commercial work.
00:05:40
Speaker
It's the same show, you know, at least that would have been the case in Vegas. I would be doing the exact same show every single night. And I'm just like, I get it. Like I get what this is.
00:05:52
Speaker
and it felt more like living the dream, so to speak, to do the other thing that I hadn't done, which was settle down and like build a home and that kind of thing.
00:06:03
Speaker
So that's all a long winded answer. It was very complicated. But yeah, that's sort of what the things I was thinking that led me to my pivot.
Inspiration Behind Pivot for Dancers
00:06:11
Speaker
So what was the turning point that led you to found Pivot for Dancers?
00:06:14
Speaker
It was COVID. So I retired in 2018. And I'd been sort of thinking about wanting to talk to other dancers and be like, this is really hard, right? Like, even though I was, i felt really ready to pivot, I had all of this stuff going on mentally, where it was like the identity stuff, it was the What do I even do next?
00:06:41
Speaker
how am I going to support myself? All of those things. And no one talks about it. You know, I felt really isolated from the dance community. i was also on the other side of the world, so that didn't help per se.
00:06:53
Speaker
But it was very tumultuous where you just don't know what's going on. And I didn't really feel like I had any support. So I had been brewing on it. And then when COVID happened and no dancer, well, no one had work, but especially dancers were just kind of like dropped in the abyss.
00:07:13
Speaker
I was like, okay, now's the time that this is really, really needed. Like it's needed anyway, but now is the time to really launch it. So I launched in 2020 pretty much right on, I think it was like, yeah, March, 2020, because I had all, I had the website brewing. I had these ideas brewing and I was able to just launch when dancers really needed it.
00:07:36
Speaker
How do you feel like your experiences and what you went through were retiring Shape It's Mission? I know you mentioned like it was really hard and no one's talking about it. What were the specific things that you experienced?
00:07:49
Speaker
and that time Kind of all the things, you know, I feel like we all go through it separately, but the same sort of things. So it actually started off when I first first was like, okay, I need a break.
00:08:05
Speaker
Again, like I said, I was really burnt out and sort of bitter as well. Like I do remember a bit of that bitterness and a bit of resentment sort of towards the industry where it was like, why did no one prepare me for this?
00:08:21
Speaker
Why did no one talk about this? There was so much focus on... getting to the professional level and having that excellence, which I guess you kind of need that in a way you kind of have to be a little bit, i was gonna say delusional, maybe not delusional, but like, you have to so that like, that's maybe a bit harsh, but maybe i don't know.
00:08:44
Speaker
you know to kind of go for this thing that not a lot of people do end up achieving because there's a lot you have to sacrifice and all of that stuff. But there was a bit of that resentment. And even when looking back where I'm like, you know i I should have booked that or like i did do everything I wanted to do and I feel proud of my career, but like could I have done more? And all of this, yeah, it ended up being bitterness and resentment. And That was a turning point too, because I was like, I don't want to feel this way about the thing that I love the most, you know?
Challenges in Career Transition for Dancers
00:09:20
Speaker
And that was when I, I was like, okay, I can take this experience and really open up about it and use it to help other dancers because surely other people are feeling the same thing.
00:09:32
Speaker
And then on top of that, it's the actual practical career change thing. stuff that you just don't know about going into a different industry. So there's not even that many resources to help you go pro in dance, which is, I feel like what you're trying to help people with, but then let alone go into something completely different that does have sort of different rules of engagement, so to speak, of how to do your resume and all of that stuff. And even what path to go down.
00:10:01
Speaker
Again, my experience, what well, I actually started a blog when I was on ships, but Because I, well, I luckily got a degree in something not in dance just because my university didn't have a dance major.
00:10:15
Speaker
So I had a dance minor, but I got my, my major was in advertising and PR. So I sort of knew about content writing and blog writing. So I was like, oh I'll start a blog. And on the side, I sort of started pitching to like,
00:10:30
Speaker
Dance Spirit Magazine and writing for them and starting to get a little bit of a portfolio while I was on ships. So that helped me have some stuff, but it's not a lot of money, you know, even back then.
00:10:43
Speaker
So trying to figure out my next steps, I went into the classic, let me teach fitness classes or you know, let me just teach something, even though I'm not a very good teacher. I don't really love it either. i knew that about dance. I was like, I don't really want to teach dance, but I was like, Oh, let me try fit. Cause you don't have anyone to guide you on what else can I do?
00:11:09
Speaker
it's like, well, I don't really want to do this either. i don't want to be up at 4am to teach a 5am class. and then have the whole day free. And then it's like evening classes.
00:11:19
Speaker
It was sort of the same problems that I was trying to get away from this like irregular income and, you you know, this really weird schedule that is not really on my terms. So I was like, I'm just kind of creating the same problems by not doing something different. So it was kind of my experience was kind of a blend of, you know, that mindset stuff of like,
00:11:40
Speaker
Who am I? Not wanting to be bitter about dance. All this kind of like, I just need to talk to somebody as well as what do I even do afterwards? So my experience has really fed into everything I do now with Pivot.
00:11:57
Speaker
So when you launched, did you find that dancers were like, yes, we need this? Were there other topics that they were coming to you with that were surprising or like was everything you were talking about really resonating?
00:12:08
Speaker
So these are very taboo topics, right? No one talks about this. Myself included, dancers were very averse to talking about it when we're in the thick of it. Even still, like that is the hardest thing for me to kind of break through, to be like, it's okay to talk about this. It doesn't mean like your career is not gonna end.
00:12:28
Speaker
you know, no one's going to be like, oh, they're talking about this. So they don't want this enough. Like maybe they are. Yeah, exactly. Like you're, you're betraying dance and all this weird stuff that like, why no one else does this in any other careers?
00:12:44
Speaker
It's like, it's so unnecessary. And it's like, so unhelpful. Once I am able to get people talking, it's like, oh my god I feel the same way and it's just this like total release of everybody is feeling the same things everybody's going through the same things and then it's like it's such a deep connection then but it's getting to that point of allowing yourself to even be open and to the idea of the conversation itself is the hard part. So yeah, everyone says the same things like identity is a big thing where they just don't know who they are at all without dance.
00:13:24
Speaker
And it makes sense, right? Like we start when we're itty bitty. It's the way we dress. It's the way we talk. It's even the way we eat, the way that we set up our schedules, like everything is dance.
00:13:36
Speaker
So identity is definitely a really big one. Yeah, and just kind of like imposter syndrome, not thinking you can really do anything else, which I still go through.
00:13:48
Speaker
i think another big one is it's being a beginner again. It's not wanting to feel like you are starting over, even though you kind of are maybe accepting that you are starting over a little bit, which is not fun, you know, and it's just yeah like working through that. Yeah, it's really tricky.
00:14:08
Speaker
So there's a few kind of common themes that tend to come up over and over again once dancers allow themselves to even have the conversation. Yeah. And one thing that I have heard also is dancers saying, i don't really know what else I like. Like, I don't know that I like anything else as much as I like to dance, dance but I am ready to be done dancing. So how do I even figure out what else I might be good at or what else I might like to do? There's just so many options.
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah.
Exploring New Interests Beyond Dance
00:14:37
Speaker
And that's a skill as well. And it's like, Being able to hone your curiosity. And that's a thing I still struggle with where for dancers, we, again, we start really, really young.
00:14:50
Speaker
We get good, relatively young at this thing. which then feeds into how much we love doing it because we have a knack for it. And we've never, most of us, haven't really used the muscle of being curious about what you want and what you like and what is a hobby. And I think it it's really difficult when you, yeah, step away professionally from dance, even though as well, it's like you can still dance.
00:15:22
Speaker
That was a big thing too, where it's like, no one's stopping you. You know what i mean? Like, it doesn't have to be so black and white, which again, a lot of us are very, it's black and white. It's all or nothing, myself included. Like, again, all of these things that I share and pivot. It's like all the things that I need to hear, you know, because we're all so similar in that we're really good at following directions. We're really good at executing choreography and having that detail, but it's like,
00:15:53
Speaker
what happens when we're the ones choreographing our lives. We never really did that. We didn't decide this is what I'm gonna do now. We sort of just follow the path that's laid out for us, which is great. But when, and especially like these days where there's not really Any career path that's just sort of like you can get into it and then you're there till you retire.
00:16:17
Speaker
I feel like that's changing on a wider scale as well. So the skill of being able to adapt and make your own paths. I think is really important and something that dancers aren't super skilled in based on the skill set that we are good at.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that you lack a lot of autonomy when you're dancing professionally and you get comfortable with that. Like even if you don't really like it or even it's not good for you, you're comfortable in that place of someone always telling you when to go to class, what the choreography is, what's your call time, what to wear. Everything is decided for you. And then you're so right when you have to start to actually have some authority over your life, that is a very unused skill set that we just haven't been nurturing for a long and time.
00:17:04
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And that's, it's such a hard part of it. And just decision making, knowing, and being able to be like, we're so in touch with our bodies, but we're not that in touch.
00:17:17
Speaker
And again, i'm just speaking for myself. I know I'm like making generalizations, but generally speaking, not super in touch again with like, what do I want?
00:17:28
Speaker
And what am I going to choose? And like being okay with that, it's sort of this external validation required, you know, which, again, makes perfect sense where, you know, we're always looking for that external validation and not always looking inwards about,
00:17:44
Speaker
do I actually think that this is the right thing to do? Or like, do I actually want to even do this? Or am I just being told that this is good or bad or whatever it is versus, yeah versus looking inward? I find that that's the case a lot as well.
00:18:02
Speaker
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00:18:14
Speaker
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00:18:26
Speaker
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00:18:40
Speaker
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00:18:54
Speaker
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00:19:06
Speaker
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00:19:29
Speaker
What are some things that performers could be doing right now? Because I think you're exactly right. We wait until we're done performing and then we think about it. And it's very scary all of a sudden and it feels taboo to talk about it. But the reality is that at some point you will retire from your performing career. So what can dancers do while they're still performing to set themselves up for success when they retire?
00:19:52
Speaker
The main thing is what you just said is accepting that it's inevitable. I think a lot of people shy away from even just saying that. you know especially in the wider community, even you know directors and teachers. And it's like, it's going to happen.
00:20:10
Speaker
And maybe even sooner than you think. you know Most dancers, the data shows that it's between 28 and 32, 33. That's generally when people And that, but we don't think that
00:20:22
Speaker
and we know that but we don't think that that's us. You know, we think when we're in the moment, it's like, oh no, I'll never retire. Like I want to dance as long as possible.
00:20:34
Speaker
But then something happens, whether you get injured or yeah, you just meet your partner and you're like, maybe that's more important now or something else changes and your priorities change too, you know, as you get older and your body changes, everything. so I think, first of all, just accepting that that actually is the reality and will be the reality for you.
00:21:00
Speaker
You're going to have to retire. And then it's the mindset stuff that goes along with that. If you can, and I guess accepting that reality is the biggest part of it. So if you can do that when you're still dancing,
00:21:16
Speaker
That's going to go such a long way. On the practical side, I would also say, start embracing your curiosity and figuring out who you are outside of dance. So try to find some hobbies that have nothing to do with dance. Hang out with people that aren't dancers.
00:21:31
Speaker
I think is a big thing too, because it's a big world out there and you're probably in a little bit of an echo cha chamber if you only hang out with dancers and you might have some different ideas about the world if you just hang out with other kinds of people.
00:21:47
Speaker
and even you know start a side hustle if that's helpful because sometimes going towards a goal that maybe earns money or something feels a little bit more i don't know easier to do for some reason than just going into a hobby for the sake of it but yeah just start exploring and you just don't know where that's going to build from like for example for me i started my blog on ships Then I ended up with a freelance business doing content writing, which then I learned about ah SEO for Google.
00:22:19
Speaker
And then i got a job in SEO at a digital marketing agency. And then i got an SEO job in-house at like a corporate company.
00:22:31
Speaker
And now I'm a business analyst in that same company, which is like part of their technology teams. So now I'm basically in a tech role working with like agile and all of this stuff that I would have never considered just because I started a blog on cruise ships about cruise ships.
00:22:50
Speaker
And you just don't know where it's going to lead, but you learn stuff along the way that can serve you in other things if you're open to it. So Yeah, I would say acceptance on the mindset side and then start exploring on the practical side. And you just have to dip your toes in here and there and just be open to it and things will come of it.
00:23:13
Speaker
One thing that I hear from dancers is that they don't think they have any transferable skills from dance to another career. i am a mentor with another amazing organization that works with dancers.
00:23:23
Speaker
in this stage called Second Act. And I was meeting with a dancer and he was just kind of exploring ideas and was like, I have no idea what I want to do. were just talking like, what do you like to do? And what are you good at? And he kept saying, well, i'm you're great I'm a great communicator. I really like doing admin kind of things behind the scenes. All these things he's saying, he's like, but you know, I don't have any skills. Like I don't have a math degree or a science degree or whatever. I'm like having communication skills and having admin skills is huge. That's a huge skill. But in his mind, it wasn't good enough because it wasn't in a specific field.
00:23:52
Speaker
field. And i was like, well, your your options are wide open because every field needs someone who can do those things, you know, but I'm curious how you can help dancers reframe their skills that they have to see them as transferable to other careers.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. So we actually just had a workshop with a recruiter who is also a former dancer and she gave some really good feedback on transferable skills. So you're absolutely right. Those soft skills like communication, admin project management, all of those things that you do as a dancer, because when you're dancing too, I always say it's not, there are a lot of skills from your actual dance work, things like learning multiple tracks in a show or just auditioning under pressure is something a lot of people cannot even get themselves to do, let alone to actually book something from that, you know, and have that level of excellence in what you do.
00:24:50
Speaker
You do have so many skills that surround your dance career because generally dance jobs are contracted jobs and you're kind of the entrepreneur in that scenario where it's like,
00:25:06
Speaker
You're sorting out your headshot and resume. You're sorting out, you know, your dancewear and like, i need to be here at this time. And I probably have another side job that I have to manage in between that. And it's all of those skills of like time management. How am I setting up my energy?
00:25:25
Speaker
How am i basically juggling all these things? That's huge, again, that a lot of people don't have. And another thing I'll say, and a big thing that came up in the workshop that we did recently is that I think dancers are generally going to err on the side of feeling like they're not good enough regardless.
00:25:47
Speaker
So, and that, it sounds like that's what happened with your, your mentee, you know? And I think just experimenting with what if I just do the opposite? What if I, i kind of think of it as, i think it's like the Beyonce, Sasha Fierce thing where it's like you sort of put on this persona.
00:26:09
Speaker
I used to do this in dance too, because I'm not the most like, I guess forthright, but it was like, but I want this job. So I'm just going to like pretend I'm the most confident person in the room and just stand in the front and just, and that really helped me in my dance career.
00:26:24
Speaker
So doing that even now where it's like, Just pretend that you like kind of fake it till you make it and play the game a little bit. And it's just surprising how well that works, because we are always going to downplay our stuff when you don't need to play it up, if anything, you know, because you're probably going err on the side of downplaying it. So all of those things, communication, and now that I'm in a corporate role, those things are the things that make me stand out so that I can just go into a meeting and sort of be off the cuff and pretty comfortable just talking to people and just asking questions and just being comfortable in my own skin.
00:27:07
Speaker
it surprises people because people have to have to learn that and dancers do that so well. And I think even just, just knowing what excellence is as well, because, you know, you talk to sort of normal people and they, you know, some people are really cool and interesting and have done other things. That was surprising to me too. How many other people are like musicians or have had these whole other lives before they ended up in a corporate thing.
00:27:36
Speaker
But A lot of people, they just kind of like went to school and then got the job and and they're fine with that and they're just living their life. But they will say to me like, how do you just do that? And I'm like, oh, I didn't realize that that was above and beyond just because I know what excellence feels like. And I know like I have the drive to want to do things well. And I think most dancers have that again, which is why we're sort of like nothing's ever good enough.
00:28:06
Speaker
And you have to get over that perfectionism a little bit. Those things are what make you stand out and are an advantage in other roles apart from just the transferable skills, which are also there.
00:28:19
Speaker
But I will say, I think, you know, it's really easy to be like, oh yeah, you can just easily go into a different role. Like it's going to be difficult. I think there's, you have this um imposter syndrome, but you also don't remember what it's like to be a beginner.
00:28:37
Speaker
So when you're failing at something or when something's not going well, you're like, what's happening? You just haven't experienced that in a long time. So it's a bit of both where it's like, no, you're going to have to do some work and you're probably going to fail a bit.
00:28:56
Speaker
And it's probably going to feel really uncomfortable for most of it And that doesn't mean you're on the wrong track as well. So as much as it's like, yes, you have all these transferable skills.
00:29:08
Speaker
Yes, you have all these advantages. you're still probably going to have to learn something new that you're really not good at. And that's going to feel weird. So being ready for that as well is, is part of it too. Yeah. I'm basically trying not to make it like, oh, it's all like, you can just easily pop over into this other thing. It's like, well, you might need to take a course and you might need to you know, learn a few hard skills as well. And you're probably going to do a bunch of interviews that don't go really well. But that how'd you get good at dance? Like, it's the same. thing
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. Can you give us some really concrete examples? Like, say I'm writing my resume, and I'm trying to apply for a tech job. And my background, maybe I've gotten some extra school and those kind of things. But my work background is dance.
00:29:57
Speaker
Right. How can i phrase my dance experience to be appealing to someone in that industry? I generally use the job descriptions that I'm looking for and I sort of work backwards from there.
00:30:10
Speaker
So they'll kind of give you the keywords that they're looking for. And that's even a good place to start if you're maybe interested in another field that you don't really know what they need or what that even means.
00:30:25
Speaker
is in terms of actual hard skills, you can work backwards from there. So say that they're looking for people who know how to use certain software like Jira, which is kind of like a Trello kind of thing, if you know what that is.
00:30:40
Speaker
You know, it's just software, but like they'll say the types of software you can look into that sort of software and, you know, maybe even get a certification in it. Or like if you want to do I don't know, Google ads, you can learn about it you YouTube and then in terms of translating your actual skills into a resume that will make sense to them, it's sort of using that job description, right? So you obviously don't want to do a copy paste and like have it be verbatim what they're saying, but those are the keywords they're looking for.
00:31:12
Speaker
The other thing is being quite specific. So, you know, using numbers and percentages. so A concrete example would be, you know, as a dance captain, I managed 17 dancers to perform this many shows at a 98% show quality score or something like that.
00:31:37
Speaker
Like, you know, because there there was stuff like that or like, you know, we had this many re-blocks in a certain period of time that we handled in 15 minutes or less or something like that. So using those very concrete numbers to try to get across the results of whatever you did, that's generally go to going to translate.
00:32:00
Speaker
Again, a lot of dancers that I've seen will shy away from putting their dance experience as work experience. It's like, no, I'm like, I'm of the mind, put it straight at the top. Like, it's so impressive.
00:32:12
Speaker
And people are impressed by it. If you dance for a professional ballet company, that's impressive. At the very least, it's a conversation starter. And that's sort of what we spoke about in the workshop too. We had we had someone who was a ah rockette and she kind of had it at the very bottom. Like you like it was just not called out at all.
00:32:31
Speaker
And I'm like, Um, everyone knows the Rockettes. So pop it right at the top, translate it into these, you know, very specific results oriented bullet points.
00:32:43
Speaker
But at the very least, it's a conversation starter because you never know it'll be, you know, my, my ship life is still a huge conversation in my corporate job, you know, because people go on Royal Caribbean cruises and they're like, Oh, Kaylee used to work there.
00:32:57
Speaker
and It's like kind of a joke, but it it makes you memorable. And when you get into that interview phase, there's so much you can talk about. And, you know, some people maybe won't care, but I think for the people who do,
Translating Dance Skills into Other Industries
00:33:11
Speaker
it's impressive. You know, people go see the Nutcracker at Christmas. People go see the Rockettes.
00:33:17
Speaker
People are interested in the arts. Like a lot of people did grow up dancing as well. And I think that that's a huge benefit where if you grew up dancing,
00:33:28
Speaker
A lot of people are like, whoa, you actually went pro. Like they know how impressive that is because a lot of people did start in ballet class, you know, and now they're hiring for corporate roles. You know what I'm saying? So it's definitely a plus. So yeah, in terms of actually translating those, it's just being specific with the numbers and trying to offer a result.
00:33:50
Speaker
And it's the same kind of thing in interviews. You always want to set, you know, have your little stories together of like, tell me about a time that you faced a challenge or something, and then you want to have your story with a clear result.
00:34:03
Speaker
And that's a good way to just carry people along and kind of speak their language. And I've worked side gigs before, multiple places like restaurants and that kind of thing, where I've had the owners be like, any dancer, you dancer, if he wants to come work here, we will hire them. No questions asked because dancers make great employees.
00:34:22
Speaker
Like you said, like we are, we're smart, we're fast, we're driven. We work way harder than people who aren't, haven't grown up their entire life doing this pursuit have because we just, our level of tolerance for hard work and just our expectation of ourself for what it means to work hard is very, very high. And we translate that, like we don't know anything else. We don't know how to not give our 110%. 100%. And it it's noticeable you know i almost have to do less like Just for my own sake, but like, I have to practice doing less because sometimes it's more of a problem that I'm doing too much where it's like, I could potentially be stepping on people's toes or like, it's so far the other way that it's kind of awkward.
00:35:11
Speaker
So it's like, just I have to calm myself down and do less. So it's not about that you can't do it. It's, I would say, yeah, go the other way, be more open, be more confident and scream it from the rooftops that you're a dancer because there's so many benefits. Yeah.
00:35:30
Speaker
What are some of the most surprising career paths that you have seen dancers transition into successfully? Yeah, just because I'm in the tech world and I have heard of a few dancers who ended up going into coding and things like that. So i don't know how to code at this point, but I think...
00:35:50
Speaker
I was so surprised to hear that in my early days of the transition because for some reason, yeah, I just was not open to even the idea of like being in tech. It seems so like the antithesis of like the arts and of being creative and stuff, it it seems like that. But what's surprising to me is it's actually extremely creative being in this field. And I've realized that as a dancer, I was personally so much more of a craftsman than an artist.
00:36:25
Speaker
because I'm really good at the craft of dance. I could choreograph here and there, you know, and but that wasn't what I was really good at. I was really good at taking someone else's art and translating that and executing that at a high level.
00:36:44
Speaker
that and I was quite passionate about being able to communicate a story that wasn't mine. And as I've thought about it over the years, I've had to sort of accept that naturally, I'm actually not that creative of a person.
00:37:00
Speaker
it's ah It's a skill to be creative. And I think some dancers definitely are super, super creative and more that way. But for me, I was much more of a craftsman where it's like, give me the choreography and I can nail it.
00:37:12
Speaker
But I'm not really gonna think critically about it and change it up or like put my own spin on it. I actually cared more about honoring what the choreography was and I think a lot of dancers are like that but I sort of had to come to terms with that identity wise because it's kind of shoved down our throats that it's like you're an artist and you're a creative and all this stuff and I'm like I'm kind of not I also my like partner he's a musician like jazz musician hyper hyper creative so I live with someone who's hyper creative which then
00:37:45
Speaker
i like, well, I'm not that creative. But in the tech world, it is all about problem solving and having a creative solution to something when you actually don't know what's going on.
00:37:56
Speaker
Like there's a lot of things because it can be quite dense and you actually have to think really deeply about there's not a checklist, you know, there's not choreography for it. So when I heard that dancers were going into coding, it was surprising to me because I was like,
00:38:13
Speaker
okay, I'd never thought of that. I wouldn't even think that I would be good at that or that dancers would be good at that. It makes sense to me now because there are so many like the discipline required.
00:38:27
Speaker
And even though you have to be really creative, the actual code has to make sense. And it has to it's like math, you know, it's like it it has a solution there.
00:38:38
Speaker
But there's so many other skills around it where you have to be really creative. And I think those creative type dancers, plus the discipline, plus wanting an outcome is really suited to tech roles.
00:38:52
Speaker
And realizing now that there are a lot of like admin roles around the tech world, like project managers and product owners and business analysts and all these other things that you're not actually coding, but you're kind of solving those problems.
00:39:08
Speaker
can be really rewarding, but I just hadn't really seen it. Most people go into teaching dance or teaching fitness, or they go into choreography or they just go into casting or something super adjacent.
00:39:22
Speaker
And I think it was so surprising to me that people were starting to go completely the other way. And again, there's nothing wrong with like going into teaching if that's what you want to do. Like that's not the message I'm trying to promote.
00:39:35
Speaker
But if you're like me and you're like, I don't really, I'm not that good of a teacher. cause I think that's the thing too. Like just being a good dancer doesn't mean you're going to be a good teacher.
00:39:45
Speaker
But I think a lot of the time it's because, you know, maybe they don't love teaching, but they're just, they just haven't seen anything else. So yeah, I guess going into the tech world was the most surprising thing for me. And it was surprising to see other dancers do that too.
00:40:02
Speaker
Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it.
00:40:15
Speaker
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00:40:28
Speaker
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00:40:42
Speaker
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00:40:58
Speaker
It is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultima Audition Guide, and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional.
00:41:12
Speaker
What are your thoughts on how the dance community can better support dancers while they're still performing and also in their transitional
Supporting Dancers in Career Transitions
00:41:20
Speaker
period? Yeah, that's a big one. I wish more the community in general would just talk about it more.
00:41:27
Speaker
That's what I'm trying to do. it it doesn't have to be this grand shift, but just talking about it. And I know that there are some communities that are talking about it. You spoke about Second Act and the Entertainment Community Fund does have, I think it's called Career Transition for Dancers. And that's been around a very long time.
00:41:46
Speaker
For me, that was hard because I live in Australia now. So there's there wasn't really a global thing where you don't have to do a a session before. You don't have to be in New York or l LA and especially pre-COVID, all this virtual stuff didn't exist.
00:42:01
Speaker
So I think it's getting better now, but I think in general, just within companies talking about it. And I did listen to your episode from San Francisco Ballet. They have this program as part of the company and I'm like,
00:42:14
Speaker
We need more of that. But even then, I think they only have like two dancers a season or something like that. And it's just not quite enough. So that's kind of the gap that I'm trying to fill with Pivot for Dancers to actually give a full suite of like, here's all these resources, come have a conversation and feel less alone in in the process.
00:42:36
Speaker
I actually think it's quite strange that we don't talk about it more because it's so obvious that it's going to happen. And it's early to retire. Like you have so much life left and we have so many skills and it's like, why is the only path that's shown to us this like very narrow path.
00:42:58
Speaker
But I guess, again, we like it. We're comfy in the follow the path. But there's just so many more opportunities. There's so much more life to live.
00:43:09
Speaker
There's a lot to it, though. Like you again, you don't have to stop dancing ever like you actually don't. It's maybe just you want something different than the professional dance life.
00:43:19
Speaker
Whether that's, yeah, you start a business or you just start a family. Maybe that becomes more important. What I like to say is like you kind of put down your dream job to try to build your dream life and it just becomes bigger than your job.
00:43:35
Speaker
You don't have to love your job. Ideally, you don't hate your job either, but it's just bigger. It's wider than just dance. Yes. And that is, yeah, what you say about, you know, finding your your dream life and a job that you like, because there's that concept of the good enough job, right? Where it's like, doesn't have to be your dream and everything and your whole identity. It's just a job that you have that makes you enough money to do the things you want to do in your life. And that's such a foreign and strange concept to us as dancers, because we literally made our dreams our job. And so to think I can have a job that pays me well and gives me benefits and PTO,
00:44:12
Speaker
yeah And two other things I like to do, and maybe I don't love it, but i don't hate it either. It feels very, very strange and scary. Very scary. And I totally understand that. And I would never want a young dancer to be like, oh, don't do it. Like, I think still do it. You know, that's not the message either. Because again, we're so we think so black and white sometimes where it's like, yes, there is such thing as a good enough job, but you almost have to go through like, I'm so glad I went through the dream job to also realize, okay, the dream job also it's like I said at the beginning, it's like, i sort of get it now. Like,
00:44:49
Speaker
At some point, it's just kind of same, same. And it does just become a job. But there were so many good things to it as well. Like dance literally gave me the life that I have now. And the reason that i want to have a big life and, you know, a rich life that's, that is meaningful and does, you know, have some sort of like romanticism to it because i started as a dancer, you know, it's all kind of in this gray area where it's like,
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, a good enough job is so good at this stage in my life. But I probably wouldn't have, i wouldn't have wanted that when I was, you know, 17, 18. And that's okay, too. I think go for it.
00:45:33
Speaker
And it's something you can be so proud of, you'll learn so much. But when your priorities shift, it's okay to not make your job your everything. And you can still love dance and you can still be a dancer. it doesn't go away. I think there's a fear too of like, oh, if I stop, I'm going to like lose it all. It's like, no, I think I took a whole year off and then went back and like, yeah, you're not fully on your leg and stuff, you know, and you can't, you know, you kind of have to What you used to be able to do off the cuff, it's like, okay, you have to stretch a little bit more because it's not gonna, you're gonna hurt yourself, but you can still do it, you know?
00:46:11
Speaker
and it still feels like home. It's still in your body. still in you. And that's so special. So you just, you don't have to, it doesn't have to be one or the other. So having a dream life to me is more important now than having a dream job.
00:46:28
Speaker
And I feel like I'm at the place in my career where I've created a second dream job for myself, which like, but i was able to take everything that I loved about my dance career.
00:46:40
Speaker
and then the things that no longer were working for me, like I need more autonomy now with kids and more time freedom. Like I'm still incredibly busy, but I'm flexible with my job. So yeah. It's not like I'm at the studio nine to five every single day and then teaching after that for the rest of the night. Like I couldn't do that now and never see my children. So for me, I feel like very lucky that I've been able to think critically about like, okay, these are the things that I want to have that would make my life, my dream life, and then be able to build a job around it. But I also so of a lot of privilege because my job does not support my family completely. Like this is not our primary source of income.
00:47:14
Speaker
It's a secondary. If my husband lost his job tomorrow, I would probably change and get a different job very quickly because I just don't have to. So there's so much wrapped up into it and so much to think about. But I do think, like you said the very beginning, just exploring what you like to do and also like what you think your ideal day might look like. Like that has for me have been a really big thing of, well, what would I do on any given day if I could just decide, like have complete autonomy over it? And that's really driven lot of my choices.
00:47:41
Speaker
And I've done the same where it's like, yeah, what do I value? And what am I interested in? But also, yeah what do I want my day or my life to look like? what What's my ideal lifestyle?
00:47:55
Speaker
Can I build something around that? And I think that's the perfect way to do it. But you're you're right too, because there are practical implications to that where it's like, I think that's the case for a lot of people.
00:48:07
Speaker
Whereas I have a full-time job that's just a good enough job. And then I do pivot on the side. The goal is to do pivot full time, you know, but it's just not there yet, practically speaking.
00:48:20
Speaker
But also do have a partner who has a full time job, which puts me in a privileged position as well, where it's like we can do things differently than maybe someone who's single who just kind of needs to make something work.
00:48:32
Speaker
But that's also okay. You know what I mean? And like you said, if your husband lost his job, you would just get a job because you just have to do what you've got to do. Ideally, you don't hate what you're doing. But to know that you can, i think, is a really powerful thing.
00:48:47
Speaker
And to not just blow with the wind and feel like you you don't have that autonomy. And that agency to be able to like figure it out and... You know, I always say too, the grass isn't necessarily greener, but I sort of think in a way that's growing up also.
00:49:05
Speaker
Not in like you have to grow up in this derogatory way, but more in like sometimes when I feel nostalgic for dance or when I feel... Like, oh, I kind of miss those days.
00:49:18
Speaker
Do I miss dance or do I just miss being young? When I was dancing, it's so wrapped up in youth and so wrapped up in this like carefree, you know, even when I was in my 20s, it's like i I didn't care about money.
00:49:32
Speaker
and I was just, yeah, living the dream, but it was because I was just with my friends every day, just dancing. I didn't have a lot of responsibilities. And it's like, maybe I just miss that sometimes when like adult responsibilities are becoming a little bit overwhelming.
00:49:49
Speaker
I think it's just part of growing up too, again, like just doing what you have to do. And it doesn't have to be the end all be all. Your job can just be a means to an end and that's okay. Stop being so hard on yourself. of Like, I have to love every single second of my day or else I've failed or something.
00:50:04
Speaker
And even as a dancer, you will not love every single second of your day. Even if you're in your dream job, you will still not love every second of it. Yeah. And it's like accepting that and being like, but this serves me better because I'm making more money or I have more time with my kids or I can go on vacation and actually rest and still get paid. Like that was the whole revelation and of itself.
00:50:30
Speaker
Being able to take a sick day and not feel bad about it. That's also freeing because i don't love my job now that I'm like, it's not a big deal to take a sick day. Whereas when I loved it, I was like, not only do I not want to let people down, but like, I want to do this. So it's, it becomes more complicated where it's like so much less complicated now, my whole work life.
00:50:54
Speaker
If a dancer who is listening right now is considering their career pivot or just even thinking about their future, what would be like the first step you recommend they take? First step is try things, try to get really used to failing and fail quickly.
00:51:12
Speaker
That's something I'm still really not good at. And I wish I would have started like practicing sooner is doing things with the intention to fail.
00:51:23
Speaker
know it sounds weird, but kind of takes the pressure off. Like if you do something that you haven't done before and you go in and say, I'm going to try to fail as quickly as I can.
00:51:35
Speaker
And it can be as simple as like going to a pottery class and being like, How can i get to the point where I've failed? So, and it's just like basically taking action, getting used to failing. And like, what does that feel like?
00:51:49
Speaker
It's kind of deep. Like it goes, it can be pretty intense, but I would say try to go fail at stuff and get used to that. And yeah, just be open, like be open to more than you think.
00:52:03
Speaker
Start saving money as well. I know it's boring. Learning about personal finance. Like I didn't grow up in a family that was that would talk about money or anything.
00:52:14
Speaker
So I was a little bit on the back foot in some regards, like. I had a bit of debt when I was transitioning. Like I didn't have student loans, thankfully, but i was a little bit on the back foot and learning about personal finance and allowing myself to think about money and to want to make more money.
00:52:35
Speaker
I think was a big shift for me again as a dancer. Like I didn't care about money when I was dancing. You almost can't because you're not going to make any. So it's like, if you care about that, you're probably not going to go down that path.
00:52:49
Speaker
Learn about personal finance is what I would say and start saving. You really want to have a buffer during your transition because yeah you might have to take an unpaid internship or you know Maybe you go live at home for a little bit and save your money because it's so easy when you just need a job to be really desperate and to not actually think...
00:53:16
Speaker
critically about, again, what you want. Having that financial security can just give you the freedom and the headroom to make decisions for yourself about what you want your next steps to be.
00:53:28
Speaker
If you could give an aspiring pro dancer one piece of advice from everything that you've learned throughout your career, what would you tell them?
Advice for Aspiring Dancers
00:53:37
Speaker
I hope you still go for it. Like, I hope this doesn't scare anyone off from doing dance. Like, that's always a fear of mine with Pivot 2.
00:53:45
Speaker
And I think it can easily be taken the wrong way of like, oh, this person hates the dance industry or thinks all dancers are silly for doing It's like, no, please still go for it.
00:53:57
Speaker
It's the best thing I ever did. I'm so proud of everything I did. But in terms of advice, I would say, I think that acceptance piece, accept that you're going into a career that's short and make sure that you are still you at the end of it.
00:54:12
Speaker
So what does that mean? It's going to be a short career. in a way, that's what makes it really special is that you can only do it for a short time, really enjoy it while it lasts.
00:54:25
Speaker
Kaylee, if anybody listening would like to learn more about you and Pivot for Dancers, where can we find you? So our website is pivotfordancers.com. You can find all of our resources there. We have an ebook, a course.
00:54:39
Speaker
I do a mentorship program. We've got some fun things coming up. We have an app in the works. So that's really exciting. You heard it here first. And we're also active on Instagram. So at pivotfordancers, you can send me a DM.
00:54:53
Speaker
And we have a YouTube channel as well. So make sure to subscribe. Amazing. Thank you so much for all this, Kaylee. It was great to connect with you again. And I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. It was lovely to chat.
00:55:06
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:55:19
Speaker
By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your reigns help others discover the show too.
00:55:32
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.