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72. Behind the Curtain with Lauren Ostrander McArdle: The Psychology of Dance
69 Plays8 hours ago
In this inspiring episode of The Brainy Ballerina Podcast, I’m joined by former professional ballerina and performance psychology expert Lauren Ostrander McArdle. Lauren danced with companies including the National Ballet of Canada and as a soloist with Sarasota Ballet and now holds a Master’s Degree in Sport and Performance Psychology. She is the founder of Behind the Curtain, a platform dedicated to equipping dancers with the mental tools they need to thrive on and off the stage.
Lauren shares her unique dance journey, from her reluctant early ballet days, to leaving home at just 14 to pursue serious training, to eventually securing professional contracts. We dive into the highs and lows of a dance career, from dream contracts and devastating injuries to resilience, mental strength, and redefining success beyond the stage. Lauren shares her powerful comeback story, insights into ballet culture, and practical advice for dancers navigating both the physical and mental demands of the art form.
Key Points in this Episode:
- Why Lauren didn’t love ballet at first, and what changed her mind at age 10.
- The pivotal role of teachers and environment in shaping a dancer’s path.
- The challenges of balancing independence, schooling, and training as a teen dancer.
- Lauren’s transition from student to professional and how she navigated auditions.
- Lauren’s devastating early-career injury and the long road back to dancing.
- The pivotal moment she returned to the stage with the National Ballet of Canada.
- Behind-the-scenes stories of being thrown onstage last minute at San Francisco Ballet.
- The mental challenges dancers face especially fear of failure, comparison, and external validation.
- Why confidence is a trainable skill and how to start building it today.
The unique cultural pressures of ballet compared to traditional sports. - How teachers and mentors can balance high expectations with high support.
Connect with Lauren:
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/behindthecurtain.spp
PERSISTENCEPSYCH IG: instagram.com/Persistencepsych
PIVOT DANCER IG: instagram.com/pivotdancer
Links and Resources:
Get 10% off registration for Étoile Dance Competition with code BRAINY10
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
1-1 CAREER MENTORING: book your complimentary career call
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
Recommended
Transcript
Overcoming Fear and Seeking Validation
00:00:00
Speaker
When I was younger, it was a lot of like what ifs. It was a lot of almost like worst case scenario type thoughts. Like what if no one hires me? What if I don't get in? What if I don't make it? What if I'm not good enough? And just like fear, fear of failure, I think.
00:00:12
Speaker
And then as I got older, it became a little more like pointed and targeted at things. And I think maybe even like the larger chunk of my like career in my 20s, I think it became a lot of struggle around like what others thought and external validation, conditions of worth, wanting to be good enough.
00:00:28
Speaker
But who determined if you were good enough?
Introduction to Brand New Ballerina Podcast
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Lauren's Journey into Dance
00:01:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Lauren Ostrander-McArdle. Lauren danced professionally as a soloist with the Sarasota Ballet, as well as with the National Ballet of Canada.
00:01:20
Speaker
She has her master's in sports and performance psychology and is the founder of Behind the Curtain, which is a platform equipping dance dancers with evidence-based tools help with motivation, focus, confidence, nerves, resilience, injury recovery, identity, you name it, all the behind the curtain parts of a performance.
00:01:38
Speaker
Lauren, I'm so excited to chat about all these amazing tools that you can share with us today. But first, I want to start with your dance journey, and I would love to hear why did you take your very first dance class?
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah, Caitlin, thanks for that awesome intro. Why did I take my very first dance class? Honestly, I think I was three-ish, and i don't have much recollection other than that I've always had a lot of energy. I've always been very movement-oriented, and so I imagine that my Parents put me in it like many parents do with young kids.
00:02:09
Speaker
And looking back and reflecting both about my journey and what I know now, I know that I definitely did what we call sampling, which is where you engage in a lot of different activities and interests and hobbies to kind of figure out what actually piques a child's interest. And at the time, i really didn't like ballet.
00:02:27
Speaker
I loved being on stage though and I loved other types of dance but ballet you couldn't talk the music had no words and it was very disciplined which were all things that were very challenging for young Lauren I kind of had a love-hate relationship with it until I was about 10 and then I had just a total 180 and in love with it how did that happen did you have a teacher that really inspired you okay so I did she was actually a substitute teacher it was a Friday and night I'll never forget this I walked into ballet and my friends were like oh we have a
Training and Early Career Challenges
00:02:55
Speaker
sub and like She's like kind of mean, like they didn't say screams, but like, you know, she would like demand things of you, which it's not like that wasn't happening, but I think it was maybe happening in a different style. And, you know, we were nine and ten.
00:03:06
Speaker
And so we take this class and oh, my gosh, I just fell in love. Basically, someone I think set the type of environment and the conditions where It was like high expectations, but also high support and high reward. And i just remember, I'll never forget, it was like about rolling, a correction about rolling.
00:03:23
Speaker
And she was like, you're crushing little kittens with your arches when they're dropping down. you got to keep those end steps up. And I was like, okay, yeah, like this is really serious. And it was just really motivating environment that made me work hard. And suddenly I was like, wait, ballet is like, it's hard.
00:03:37
Speaker
and you need to put effort in. That suddenly became this engagement piece that was missing. And from that moment onwards, I just like fell in love with the work aspect of it. So what was your training like growing up from that moment when you became more serious?
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah. So I think because i hadn't been that serious, I was a bit behind relative to expectations and standards for when we look at like a pre-professional or a vocational training program. And so I also grew up a bit south of Seattle. And so while I don't want to speak ill of the studios that are there that I'm very close with, I think that there are now more resources in the area than there were when I was growing up and in this stage, what?
00:04:15
Speaker
20 years ago and so i found it a bit challenging to get the type of consistent intense and volume of training that i needed to get kind of caught up for my age since i really didn't totally get serious and figure out what serious meant i knew i liked it but then there was this additional learning curve both for me and my parents because my family didn't dance and it was like okay so she wants to do this but like what does this look like and what could it look like and what do you mean good technical training versus bad, like isn't all ballet equal. And then, you know, there was this massive kind of exposure to what standards were and the demands of the career. And so with that came a lot of bouncing around between trying to find kind of the next best thing in terms of where I was going to be able to get the resources that I personally needed.
00:04:57
Speaker
And that ended up leading me to leave home at 14. went to a small school in Vancouver, British Columbia that no longer exists. My teacher there, I'm still very close with her. She kind of, this is like a pretty extreme way to say it, but I joke that she rescued me from bad ballet. Not that the other places were bad, but I was not great.
00:05:13
Speaker
And so my own bad ballet, she kind of helped me, really plucked me out and took me under her wing. And then from there, I went to Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet for three years year round to finish up my high school.
00:05:25
Speaker
And then after that, I went to San Francisco Ballet School Level 8 for like kind of a, I call it my finishing year after high school. And then kind of got launched into the circuit of different professional contracts and opportunities.
00:05:37
Speaker
So yeah, it was a lot of work, a lot of catching up, a lot of sacrifice. But I feel very grateful that my dream came true. How did you find this school in Canada? Like it sounds like it wasn't necessarily like a San Francisco ballet or a big school like that. Yeah.
00:05:51
Speaker
And I feel like a lot of parents and dancers have this question of where do I go to train? How do I find the right place for me? Like, what was it about this school that lures you in? So they kind of found me, which like sounds like, oh my gosh, like when they found me, like, no, it wasn't quite like that. My mom had been doing research about Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet and The way that like the legend has it is I guess she wouldn't stop talking about it so my dad was like, okay, just like go for a week in the summer and like see what it's about and take Lauren and like, you know, see if maybe this could be a good fit for the future. There was no question at that point in time. I had just turned 14. I was going into grade nine.
00:06:23
Speaker
I was needing to be at home. They have this teacher training workshop. And so there was a teacher from that school in Vancouver that was at the teacher training course at CPYB. And I was there taking classes and she was watching a lot of classes.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I knew one of her students because we had been in the same summer intensive class. And I was just like, oh, like you're from Vancouver. My friend's from Vancouver, buth blah, blah. And we kind of made this connection and she started chatting and then she just kind of continued watching. And I think knowing my mom, she probably was like, oh, we're not really sure what to do with Lauren. Like she wants to do this, but like, does she have a chance? And like, what do we do?
00:06:54
Speaker
And basically my teacher created this proposal of me moving to Vancouver, which was four hours where my parents lived in Washington state. and provided me with like a scholarship to go up there, had a host family for me to live with, and just created this proposition of I can try to help your child get closer to her goals.
00:07:13
Speaker
But it was also a massive decision. And so... My parents took a leap of faith, trusted me, lots of conversations, and we decided to go for it and see what happened. That's kind of how it came about. I think it was right place, right time. And also someone seeing, she likes to joke that I looked like a banana on a stick.
00:07:28
Speaker
Like I had no abdominal control, no placement, but something in her said, hey, take a shot on this one. And I'm grateful. What was that like for you moving away from home at such young age?
00:07:38
Speaker
My gosh. So i definitely had some questionable like habits. I feel like I didn't wash my hair enough. I didn't really like really. they think I'm like, wow, this is smartly.
00:07:49
Speaker
My room was really messy. There were just things about like day to day time management and taking care of yourself that someone who is fresh into 14 wouldn't know. So I also switched online school. I've been in public school my whole life and I switched to virtual education And that was challenging from a ah time management perspective, because you go from being in this adolescent stage where there's a lot that's happening. Your body is changing. you are starting to get more independence, but like still really needing parental guidance, of course.
00:08:18
Speaker
And then my parents... were still that for me, absolutely. But it wasn't like right there, you know, over my shoulder, like, hey, Lauren, you need to do your schoolwork right now. Or are you getting ready for dance or blah, blah, blah.
00:08:29
Speaker
It was interesting. I just I kind of look back and I laugh like I ate so much candy. I would take the bus in the middle of the day all over Vancouver by myself. And didn't have a phone because like international travel plans didn't really work then. And just crazy. Like looking back at everything, im like, wow, I think I was more brave then. Like I just didn't know. i just went for it.
00:08:46
Speaker
But there was a grocery store right by the bus stop. And like, I love Canadian candy. I still do. And every day I would go and just buy candy. And like, I know at one point my teacher like told my parents like, Lauren's looking really thin. Is she okay? And I was just like, yeah, I'm great. I'm like, I'm eating so much candy and chips. and they're like, okay, we got to have a nutrition conversation. Just little like cute, you know, earnest, innocent things like that, that I think are normal, but funny now looking back. So I know what it was like.
00:09:14
Speaker
And then what was your transition like into your professional career? Once I got to like age, I don't know, 17, 18, 18. seventeen eighteen and my senior year of high school and then going into SFB. Prior to that, it was like training, training, training. And I still felt this pressure, like i need to get caught up for my age and then starting to realize like maybe I am caught up. And then what does that look like? I never really stopped or changed my approach. I think it was always just like work hard, work harder, work the hardest and push myself.
00:09:40
Speaker
And then it became less about summer intensive auditions and more about company auditions or second company auditions. And so I think that the translation from student to like entry-level professional, I feel that I had really good training and experiences both at CPYB and other places to kind of start just getting some early career experience. Like when I was at SFB, I got to perform with the company quite a bit.
00:10:03
Speaker
So that was... cool to just see how things operated and also see how you needed to manage yourself in those settings and how to be seen and not heard essentially. And, you know, going at a moment's notice and all these things that you would hear stories about growing up, but then suddenly to be the one where those stories would pop up and be like, oh, this is okay. Wow. Actually, this is this moment that I heard so much about.
00:10:22
Speaker
I don't want to say it was seamless, but I felt well-prepared. That actual transition was, it's always going to be hard, but I think that I had good support and good training, both from a technical aspect and also cultural and what to expect and how to handle yourself.
00:10:38
Speaker
So yeah, don't know if that answers that question. No, totally. It sounds like you had a lot of the experiences that some dancers have when they go from their pre-pro program to a company a little bit earlier, yeah like figuring out all those things you moved away from home, because that's kind of a lot of the stuff that people struggle with is just like,
00:10:55
Speaker
How do you manage your time? How do you feed yourself? How do you make sure you're taking care of your body? All those things that someone has been helping you with lot the times, your parents. Yeah, definitely. And I guess I don't want to say the stakes are lower if it's not a contract. Arguably, they could be higher because you're still doing high school or maybe it's not even fair to compare them.
00:11:12
Speaker
But I do think that it was almost like a soft launch into that. My first year, it was four hours from my parents. So I would go home every weekend and sometimes they would they would drive me or I'd take a bus. It was like a feeder program into really being away.
00:11:23
Speaker
And so then I felt like that had prepared me well for then the next step, which was moving across the country and what that looked like. And so I'm fortunate that there were kind of some gradual progressions in that. And I think also with being exposed to a company setting without my job being on the line and being able to observe. I think a lot of observational learning happened too, which is important.
00:11:41
Speaker
I appreciate the way you kind of synthesize that. Yeah. Yeah. How did you get your first contract? Did you do like the full audition tour? ah was that like? Yeah, I did. So I was 18. I did a lot of second company auditions because i think that it's definitely still the case. But at the time that seemed like a really realistic goal. I didn't think that I was ready for a core contract.
00:12:02
Speaker
And yeah, I just, you know, made my audition video, did the classic, sending the emails, sending the photos, sending the video, asking to come take class. I did some international auditions too that year. Did the whole thing.
00:12:13
Speaker
I don't want to say it was a different time, but I reflect back on it because I've auditioned quite a few times since at different ages and stages of my career. There's this part of me and I look back, I'm like, it feels like it was simpler then. Maybe I just didn't know what I didn't know.
00:12:26
Speaker
And I maybe didn't know like how rare all the interest I was getting was. And maybe I thought that was normal. I don't know. It also could be the fact that like I was an 18 shiny little ballerina with potential up ahead, not older, which I think is ah unfortunately an aspect in hiring too.
00:12:41
Speaker
So it's all interesting, all the different dynamics that come into play that you can look back on and be like, hmm. Well, to your point about it being a different landscape at that time, I do think that it was a very different system. There's so many more training programs now. There's way more second companies.
00:12:56
Speaker
And they're not as, in my opinion, directly feeding into companies as they were Like I started dancing professionally in 2009. Okay. I was a trainee, but there was three of us and we were with the company.
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah. There was this attitude, at least I'm thinking of SFB, but going into like my level eight year, I had just finished high school and there was this part of me that was like, oh my gosh, like if they gave me trainee,
00:13:21
Speaker
at SFB, that would almost be comparable to a second company somewhere else because you got stipend, you got shoes, you got to live in Jackson House. Like there was this attitude around it. and now I don't know what it's like now because I've been removed from like that company setting for a while. But I just remember like training at SFB was like kind of rivaling Apprentice somewhere. Like it was not just like, oh, training, you're paying tuition, where I think a of are happening now.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Most training programs now are tuition-based where I feel like at that time they were at least – unpaid. Yes. If nothing else, right? So yeah, it's very different landscape and I am finding that dancers are going to have to go through more levels yeah before you get the contract. And also I think post COVID, it's been kind of crazy out there because it's like people kind of piled up.
00:14:03
Speaker
100%. There was no hiring and That's a whole other conversation.
Injury and Recovery Journey
00:14:07
Speaker
But I'm curious, what was your first contract? Was it with Sarasota Ballet? No. i've I've gone through different phases of being like, how much do I want to share about what I actually experienced versus not? And so I'm still careful because i basically had a really...
00:14:22
Speaker
really unfortunate first job experience. I got injured very early on My third day, ah got injured and it ended up escalating. And i'm just for the sake of everything, if it's okay, I'm not going to name the company I was with because I've kept it off of my resume and I've just kept it off of things. But it was a dream job for me at the time. And there were a lot of personal factors as well that I was really excited about, friends in the company, the location of it, lots of things. And it was like the contract that I was wanting the whole time. And so I got it, which was like the coolest thing ever.
00:14:51
Speaker
And then I got injured and I didn't have the best medical advice. So it actually resulted in me dancing on a broken foot for two months. And then I ended up having what we call a non-union fracture, which is essentially when, in my case, it was a stress fracture and the new bone growth formation and the that whole acute injury inflammation response phase that occurs is what promotes the healing of the bone. Like you need those little bone agents to go in there and lay down that new bone.
00:15:16
Speaker
Now, what was happening during that healing time period physiologically is that I was continuing to dance on it. And so every bit of new bone that would be laid down because of the load, because of the jumps, because of just, you know, not giving my body the rest.
00:15:28
Speaker
It wasn't like I was choosing to disobey. It's just kind of how things happened. My body ended up completing the healing process, but the bone never actually fully knit back together. Yet there was no chance that the body would kind of reactivate that response phase to get new bone growth because it thought it had done its job.
00:15:44
Speaker
yet it didn't actually get a chance to solidify and lay down because of the impact that was occurring from continuing to dance. So that's what they call, I don't know if doctors are listening to this we be like, that's kind of right, but that's how I understood It's called a non-union fracture.
00:15:55
Speaker
Fast forward, I ended up losing my contract because I was injured. And I ended up having to have a pretty intense surgery. I got nine different doctor opinions because basically what they found is that we couldn't figure out it was a non-union fracture right away.
00:16:09
Speaker
They just knew had a stress fracture. it had been four months since we had found it. I had been in a boot now for two months. There were no signs of healing. I had so many CT scans, MRIs, x-rays. I was like probably a walking, like, don't know, radioactive machine at that point.
00:16:22
Speaker
No one could figure what was going on because I was a healthy 19 year old and this bone wasn't healing. And so finally I went to an orthopedic surgeon in seattle dr mankey he's great he works at the seahawks too which i always thought was super cool and that was the year that they were going to the super bowl so i got a seahawks cast but they found that it was a non-union and and essentially what that meant was that in order for the bone to heal and for me to be able to dance again i kind of had two choices one i could do a science experiment and see how long it would last before something worse occurred because it was kind of like hollow on the inside of the fracture and so They said that it was kind of a guarantee that at some point in time, the injury, like the bone would probably turn into more of like a ah full acute fracture and like other soft tissue ligaments could be impacted by that type of acute injury.
00:17:10
Speaker
So that was like wait and see, or maybe wait and see if it heals maybe, but like you're gonna four months. And if it doesn't, then you're probably gonna need surgery anyways. And I was like, okay, I've already wasted four months. Like, let's get on with it.
00:17:20
Speaker
So then i went with the surgical option, which was to have my second metatarsal, have them refracture it, take bone from my heel, lay the bone down, do a bone graph and put a screw in it.
00:17:31
Speaker
And then wait for the bone graph to heal and then get that screw removed because of where the screw went in. Like some people have pins and can dance, but my titanium screw was like this big. and it had to cross the joint. And so I couldn't even do physical therapy or anything. So in that moment, like it was a no brainer to me I was like surgery.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, let's do it. So I had surgery 12 days later and I um didn't walk for a really long time, lost my job, had to move back home, be with my parents. It was crazy. It was really intense.
00:17:57
Speaker
And then it took me about two years to come back from that, both from like there was the normal rehabilitation aspect of the surgery and then kind of returning to ballet. But then there was what I call getting ballet back because, you know, you can be cleared, but then there's the physical and the mental hurdles and the confidence and the point work and variations and stamina and so many things. And so it was about two years total, but then my comeback was getting apprenticed with the National Valley of Canada, which I'm very proud of.
00:18:22
Speaker
It was the best comeback that there possibly could have been in my mind. I was like, this is... This is amazing. And there was a chance with my injury that because of the like severity and the, I guess, complexity of the shape of the fracture, where it was located on my second metatarsal, all these things that it was considered a pretty high risk operation in terms of it might not work fully or certain things could happen.
00:18:42
Speaker
So yeah, there was still a big question mark, but I'm just, again, totally, totally thankful. It's surreal. um yeah yeah Wow. How did you come back from that in terms of like, what did you do to get back to this high level?
00:18:55
Speaker
I did what I was instructed to do. My mom is a physical therapist, not a dance physical therapist. She works with special needs children, like a neuro pediatric physical therapist, but she did a really good job of helping me manage my expectations right from the beginning. Like she didn't sugarcoat anything. She told me just pretty much how rough and raw surgery was going to be, how the comeback was going to be.
00:19:14
Speaker
I mean, I like, I couldn't bathe myself. It was rough. And so I think that having proper expectation management was huge because then I wasn't wrestling as much with like, oh my gosh, like it wasn't supposed to be this way. I think I kind of tried to get my head right and be as realistic as possible about what the journey was going to be. And I think that because of that, I was able to almost like equip myself with armor, knowing that it was gonna be a really huge climb and I need to start build up momentum and support and strength for the journey ahead in a way. So I think that because of that, I was able to almost be more prepared for just how hard it was going to be.
00:19:47
Speaker
In addition, I had to just take it one step at a time. Like I remember during that time, I kept telling myself like baby steps, literal baby steps, like real life too. Like the first time I walked, I could only get like four steps in and I was like, I want my boot back. Like I'm in pain.
00:20:00
Speaker
And I cried though, cause I hadn't walked by myself without a boot or anything. I walked in June and I hadn't walked since like the previous October or November. And so like knowing though, that like that was a win.
00:20:12
Speaker
And so celebrating the really, really small moments and like letting those be big was crucial in allowing myself and equipping myself with the motivation to sustain the climb, if you will.
00:20:25
Speaker
Dance competition season is upon us, and if you're looking for a competition that's about artistry, performance, and growth, not just the trophy, then you need to check out Etoile Dance Competition.
00:20:38
Speaker
Etoile is a concert dance competition open to everyone, including beginners, pre-professionals, and adults, with inclusive leveling that makes it possible for anyone to score in the top overalls.
00:20:49
Speaker
And every dancer gets more than just a score. Etual provides audio and video critiques in performance, technique, choreography, and overall impressions you can truly grow from your experience.
00:21:03
Speaker
Something unique to Etual that I love is the opportunity for dancers to start the day off right with master classes taught by Etual's esteemed panel of judges, all with professional dance backgrounds and teaching experience.
00:21:17
Speaker
Plus, every event includes a group contemporary performance with a chance to hone audition skills and build community with other dancers. This competition is truly something special.
00:21:29
Speaker
And right now, podcast listeners can get 10% off the registration with code BRAINY10. If you want a competition that emphasizes artistry, provides real, actionable feedback, and celebrates dancers of all levels, head to atwalcomp.com or find the link in the show notes to register today.
Memorable Moments and Retirement
00:21:51
Speaker
Throughout your professional career, do you have any like favorite roles that you got to dance or favorite moments that you had that you want to share? Yeah. Okay. So I have some like favorite ones that were like, oh my gosh, this is a total dream, favorite role ever. And then I also have some like crazy moments that are like, wow, that was insane, but i'm like I lived and to tell the tale. So I'll start with the insane ones. So when I was in level eight at there were...
00:22:16
Speaker
a lot of opportunities for me to perform with the company. Some were expected and some were unexpected. And so I think that some of those more unexpected ones occurred the same day. And there were some times more than once where I would see the value mess just walk into my point class and I was like,
00:22:29
Speaker
She looks like she's looking at me. No, she's not looking at you calm down, calm down. And then she'd like walk right up to me and it would be something like, so-and-so just went out, we need you to learn a new spot in Bayadere and perform it tonight. And this happened with Giselle and a few other things.
00:22:42
Speaker
And it was just this like rush of insane, like hyper-focus pressure, but like I can do this sort of thing. And there was this time, it was La Bayadere. It was a shade score spot. I had never been on the ramp. I was just understudying it. I was learning a girl on the other side wasn't my spot even, like so many different things. And Natalia McCarver was there.
00:23:01
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't want to die. And it was like so insane. I learned it. I performed it that night. I remember there was this ex on the top of the ramp backstage before he went out. line And this is San Francisco Ballet, like a dream company, of course.
00:23:18
Speaker
And in my opinion, still like one of the top in the world. And I'm like, what are they even doing letting on, you know, in this building, let alone on stage? Like, this is so cool. I remember I took the B+. plus And I was on that X and like, I've gotten better, but i have flying anxiety. I fly a lot, probably more than most people I know, but I just don't love it, but I manage.
00:23:35
Speaker
And I just remember standing on that X being like, I would rather be on an airplane right now. I am so scared. This is so scary. And there was dry ice and there was the light and I was on the ramp and I was like don't, no, you can do this. You can do this. And i I managed and I got down the ramp and then I was like, okay, Lauren, now try to enjoy and have fun. And it was very special and amazing and like,
00:23:53
Speaker
crazy though. So that's a highlight because like, whoa. And then I think that there have been quite a few moments, not so much at Sarasota Ballet, both when I was getting to perform with SFB and at National Life Canada, where I got thrown on in a moment's notice. And I think that happens.
00:24:07
Speaker
I've reflected and been like, oh, that rarely happened again in Florida. Why? And I think it's just probably the size of the court of ballet that's happening on, you know, and in some of the roles. And I think in bigger companies, this does happen, but just all of those moments where it was like,
00:24:20
Speaker
oh my gosh, you have to be able to execute right now. Those crazy things. And I just kind of thrived under that pressure. And so those are the moments that I think I actually felt the most alive was just doing it. You don't have time to think, you just have to do it.
00:24:32
Speaker
Moments like that where you're like learning a new spot, getting thrown in moments notice is like awesome. And then from like a favorite role standpoint, I love Balanchine. I love Balanchine Ballet as I always have. A couple stand out. The fourth movement principle in Western Symphony, I just love it so much. You get to be like so fun and sassy and get to use your personality on stage. And it has some challenging technical aspects like the diagonal of the écarte releves, but then also fuetes. And I don't consider myself a dancer that has like tricks.
00:25:00
Speaker
I've had to work really hard and everyone does, but I feel like I've had to work really hard to just like even become adequate on a large scale of things. But it just so happened that I felt like I could fuete decently well.
00:25:10
Speaker
Like nothing crazy. I'm not like pulling out quads or anything, but like I can manage. And then that diagonal, like I could just do it. And so, yeah, it felt like a role I was well suited for. And it was also early in my career. was my second year in the core. They gave me that role. I got to perform it at the gala too, just like super early on. And all of those like tricks in, you know, the diagonal and the foites, they all happen on my surgery foot, which I also just thought was really cool. Like, wow, look at that comeback.
00:25:32
Speaker
So it was kind of the first principal role I got. It was about, I've always dreamed of doing. And I just felt so myself in that role. Love that. Thinking about retirement as a dancer, how did you know when it was time for you to retire from the stage? And what was that transition like for you?
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. So full transparency, I feel like I'm still in the transitional phase because this is all quite recent. Like I was performing this past spring even, and I didn't necessarily have intentions to retire. But I think that it really came down to looking at the fact that like,
00:26:04
Speaker
I'm so thankful my dream has come true and I know that I could squeeze some more time out of it. But I also know that just like at any point in time, there is sacrifice required. It comes at a cost of other things. And I feel a lot more pulled and like some more momentum towards these other dreams that I want to pursue. And so kind of doing like a, I don't think risk versus reward is the right way, but like looking at like, okay, if i stay and I do this in this capacity and understanding circumstantially, like what that would look like and being realistic with that,
00:26:31
Speaker
And then I also look at these other things that I want in life and in my next career and just like with our family too. It's like, if I do this, it will come at a cost, but then how much longer? Like, I know I'm not old, but I'm not 18.
00:26:43
Speaker
I'm 30. So it's kind of it like a, it's a moment where you still have tons of time, but you don't have unlimited time. And so I think looking again at like, okay, this is everything laid out.
00:26:55
Speaker
It's a choice. And I feel grateful that it was a choice I got to make. It was not an easy choice, but I think just feeling like, you know, I have other dreams. I really want to be able to pour energy and time into, and I really, really want to make an impact in the ballet world. And that's to me, what's like setting my soul on fire now. And again, I'm so grateful my dream came true and I really couldn't ask for anything more.
00:27:14
Speaker
yeah. Yeah, I guess looking at it that way. It's weird. It still feels really weird. It's a strange thing because it's it's your life. Yeah. Did it hit you this fall? I feel like when I retired, it hit me really hard when the company went back. Like during the summer when we were all off, I was like, this is normal. We're always off this time of year. But then all of a sudden, whenever went back and I did it, I was like, oh, this is weird.
00:27:35
Speaker
So I like keep waiting for all these, like a moment like that that you're talking about, or even like some of these things. and i'm like, oh my gosh, like when people start rehearsing Nutcracker, what's that going to be like? Or, you know, I'll like look at my leotards and I'm like, okay, what do I feel?
00:27:46
Speaker
But it's really strange because i haven't had any like, critical, like, oh my gosh, okay, now it's weird. I think it was like April, May when I was kind of making the decision without labeling it. Like I didn't say like, oh my gosh, I have to decide if I'm going to retire or not. And i have to use this word. I just left it very open.
00:28:03
Speaker
I had a sports like internship this summer and it was the first time like that I was operating in a non-ballet job setting consistently. And so I was using that also as like a time to be curious and see like, do I miss it? What's it like waking up every day and not doing this and not feeling this pressure to do this and other facets of my identity? Like, what's it like when that's the priority instead of it being secondary, you know, this got to be first and then ballet was going to be second or maybe not at all. And I just noticed that as the summer went on, like I didn't feel compelled to take class. I didn't feel like I should be doing something. I actually felt like it was this beautiful part of me, but that there were also other parts of me I got to pour into. And I think that over time it became less and less weird and and became, I don't know, almost just like more like, okay, like I can be grateful, but I can also be like kind of happy about the things I get to do now.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah. Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule?
00:29:02
Speaker
I've been there, and I totally get it. As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves.
00:29:17
Speaker
That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide. This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease. No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package.
00:29:31
Speaker
With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional. We're talking resumes, headshots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it.
00:29:48
Speaker
It is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultima Audition Guide, and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional.
Mental Challenges in Dance
00:30:01
Speaker
So from your perspective, looking back on your dance career, what are some of the things that you feel like you struggled with the most as far as the mental side of things?
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's like a whole dance bag full of things that all dancers struggle with mentally. And they I think they... correspond with different stages of the career as well. When I was younger, it was a lot of like, what ifs, it was a lot of almost like worst case scenario type thoughts. Like what if no one hires me? What if I don't get in? What if I don't make it? What if I'm not good enough?
00:30:31
Speaker
And just like fear, fear of failure, I think. And then as I got older, it became a little more like pointed and targeted at things. And I think maybe even like the larger chunk of my like career in my twenties, I think it became a lot of struggle around like what others thought and external validation, conditions of worth, wanting to be good enough, but who determined if you were good enough?
00:30:51
Speaker
That definitely links to like to confidence, but also then how are you going to dance if you know that's what's on your mind? And I don't think that it negatively impacted my dancing, so to speak. like I think I was still able to show up and execute and do the best that I could, but I think that had I had certain mental skills or support or just awareness of some of these things to be able to target it.
00:31:12
Speaker
yeah Target what I was doing about those things, I think that I would have been less stressed. I think I enjoyed it as much as I could, but just looking back, I feel almost like, oh, wow, that was hard. And I was really hard on myself there. I didn't see what I had or I never thought I was good enough. And I thought that wasn't good. I thought that you know this wasn't enough, this wasn't enough. And even just looking at like summer layoff periods, I remember always thinking, like what are they going to think when I come back?
00:31:35
Speaker
Are they going to think I'm good enough? Have I done enough? have I worked hard enough? Are they going to be disappointed? i think it's that power dynamic in the front of the room too. But knowing more so how to determine my own value and my own worth without waiting for others to determine it for me would be how to summarize all of those words I just said.
00:31:50
Speaker
So going back to young Lauren and those thoughts of like, what if, what if, what are some skills that you would give to a dancer who is experiencing that? On one hand, it's hard because no one knows what's going to happen.
00:32:03
Speaker
And ballet is so subjective that there are people who check every box, who have everything, who have done all of the right things and have worked as hard as humanly possible. And this is something that kills me because I've experienced it at different points in time too, where sometimes it's not about how good you are.
00:32:19
Speaker
It's about, are you the right thing that's walking in the door? That's the ice cream flavor that someone's looking for essentially because of the subjectivity of it. So being realistic about that and realizing that there are going to be elements that are not within your control.
00:32:33
Speaker
but you can set yourself up to give yourself the best shot of success and be aware of what those factors are and let those be the things that determine your source of success is critical. And so even just zooming in a little bit, I don't often say that, but instead of like, oh my gosh, am going to make it? Am I not? It's like, okay, what do you love about ballet? What are some things you're really looking forward to now?
00:32:53
Speaker
What are the most important things? And I think that there was this moment in time where You know, when I was in high school, I was like, I'm only going to dance with New York City Ballet. And all other ballet companies are crap, which like is hilarious and so embarrassing and totally not the case.
00:33:04
Speaker
But in that point in time, it was like, I think all young dancers go through that phase. Yeah, and totally. And then when I like didn't get into SAV for the fourth time, I was like, oh my gosh, I was so dramatic. I stay in bed for like three days crying. It was very, very severe.
00:33:16
Speaker
And then I started realizing, wait a second, I actually just love ballet. And so as long as I can be doing ballet, then that's success. So kind of things like that, like figuring out how to help dancers define what it is they're going for, what's the most important thing to them, all these things that are within their control and some of those more intrinsic factors.
00:33:36
Speaker
And then also just supporting them and validating the fact that like it is terrifying and it is okay to feel like it's this big what if and you're going to get through it one way or another. That's probably not like, you know, the most fluffy answer ever, but I think it's it's the raw one where unfortunately when you go into an audition, you cannot control.
00:33:53
Speaker
if you're going to get hired or not, or if you're going to get the summer intensive place, because you don't actually know what on earth is going through their heads. But what you can control is being as prepared as possible, showing up as confidently as possible, working as hard as is healthy and as you can, leading up to that for a long time and just being fearless in that pursuit of putting yourself in the most favorable position and then having peace and knowing that you couldn't have done anything more. And all you can do is your best. And so that sounds so cheesy, but it's the truth.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And I always say to dancers, like to your point with the idea of, you know, New York City of LA being the only option, you know, and this is like the best company. If I can't make it here, I failed.
00:34:35
Speaker
I'll always say to them, well, what do you like about that company? Do you want to live in new York City? Do you want to be in a big company like that? Do you like Balanchine? Like what is it? Is it just because you think it's the most prestigious?
00:34:46
Speaker
There's so many other companies and places you could be that would offer you that same sense of satisfaction like to your point of I love ballet, I just want to do ballet. Like, what is it that you really like about this? And then can you zoom out a little bit there and say, okay, there are other places that could give me this same thing I'm looking for, even if I can't make it in this company.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I think that the industry is so... unique and it's so intense and severe in the sense of it's not only about who the best dancer in the room is it's what the height is and it might even be something like well we just lost a five foot five brunette who's swan number four and we actually really we're doing swan like again and we really need swan number four so we're looking for swan number four And you don't know that though, in the moment, you're like, oh my gosh, i wasn't good enough.
00:35:35
Speaker
Maybe, but oftentimes I think at least, and this is just my opinion, but from my experience, what I've observed, like once you get to a certain level, everyone's baseline good enough. Like you're in the room, you're good enough to get in the room.
00:35:47
Speaker
And so then it comes down to subjective preference or very specific needs, and things that are happening that you totally don't have information on. And so that's hard also when you maybe don't get the outcome that you want and it's really easy to be like, oh, I wasn't good enough.
00:36:03
Speaker
But like, sure, if you want to take that and want to go work harder, Fine. But if it's the kind of thing where I wasn't good enough, I should give up, blah, blah, blah. Like you just don't know. i think it's a numbers game. You've got to knock it as much as possible and then the right one will open.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah. And that made me think of this. Oh my gosh, this came back to me and I haven't thought about this in so long, but I remember when I was with my students at YAGP one time and I can't remember whose class I was watching and it's going to drive me crazy.
00:36:28
Speaker
But the teacher who was teaching at the time, he brought out a chair. And he was talking to the students about the idea of being objective or subjective and how the judge's comments and scores are very subjective. And he's like, this is a chair.
00:36:41
Speaker
It is brown. It has four legs. These are all objective facts. But if I say it's a beautiful chair, you know, if I describe things about it that I believe, this is subjective.
00:36:52
Speaker
And just like the thought of reminding students that this is what's what we think about your dance. It's what one person thinks about your dancing. It's not necessarily a fact. It's just our opinion. Yep.
00:37:02
Speaker
And I think that's such an important point. I love that example. That's a great teaching tool. I'm probably going to steal that too. Like also realizing that the people who are in positions of decision-making power are people with opinions.
00:37:13
Speaker
And because ballet is, I mean, for example, we could even look at the fact that like ballet is not in the Olympics. There is no way to quantify someone's skill level. There are things I think in competition dance settings where we try, but still it's not like, for example, in baseball, you can measure the speed that the pitcher throws the ball.
00:37:30
Speaker
And there are stats and there are numbers and there are rankings. And you submit all of this to collegiate recruiting people. And like, you know, you've got your profile and even running. There's time and there's really objective, quantifiable results and data that you can use to inform your progress. And that kind of tells you where you rank relative to others.
00:37:46
Speaker
In ballet, we don't have that. We have the aesthetic ideals. We have what we have been taught through tradition and just kind of observational knowledge that, yes, that's a good line. That's a bad line. Yeah, we all know if the foot's sickle, like not cool.
00:38:00
Speaker
But... That's where the artistic aspect comes in. like i view ballet as a sport, but it's also an art because of what you just said. Like, I think it's beautiful. Someone else might not. And I think we've all had experiences where someone is obsessed with a dancer and maybe you don't see what they see. You think they're, yeah, they're nice, they're good, but like, why are they getting everything? And why not me or whatever?
00:38:19
Speaker
It really boils down to, again, like flavor of the week analogy or even just ice cream flavor preferences. And the other thing on that to say is that in the moment that you are going to the ice cream shop,
00:38:30
Speaker
Maybe some people are really rigid and only have one flavor ever. But oftentimes, like there are some flavors I'm probably not going to ever pick. Like, I don't know, some of them i'm just like, yeah, if there's nuts in it, I might not really love it.
00:38:41
Speaker
But like, I might want a sorbet. I might want like a cheesecake one. I might want a Rocky Road. I might want, don't know, a unique flavor. And realizing that the people who are making those decisions are looking for a specific flavor in that moment. And that doesn't mean also that they're never going to want what you have to offer, but
Building Confidence and Adaptability
00:38:58
Speaker
it's also timing. And I feel like I just rambled, but there's just so, so much and it's so hard. And I think it's so important.
00:39:02
Speaker
Yes. That was a good analogy. I'm going to steal that one. Yeah, that was really good. So going forward into your career and your more established dancer, but even in that time, you know, you mentioned you're still struggling with that confidence piece.
00:39:17
Speaker
So do you have some skills that can help dancers in that stage of life who are not so much wondering like, what if, what if you've made it at this point, you're established, but you're still comparing yourself and you're still stuck in that mindset.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard. I wish it was like a one size fits all fix. I will say that what has been interesting in my last few years dancing is that I've pretty much completed the bulk of my sport informant psychology degree while still dancing professionally. And so I was able to kind of use myself as like an N equals one study um and just try out skills on myself. And of course, there's always a bias with that. But then also even not that I was like psychoanalyzing people by any means, but learning about these things and then going and existing in an environment daily that was high performing and high pressure.
00:40:03
Speaker
it really helped me synthesize kind of the theories and some of the evidence-based things. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this was really valuable to help me connect the dots. And so I think that when I think about confidence, I think that confidence is a skill so we can train it.
00:40:17
Speaker
And understanding, and this is where the individual differences really come in, but understanding like what breaks down your confidence versus what kind of helps charge it up is critical for then you developing the awareness of when you're likely to feel your best versus when you're likely to be beating yourself up. and when we think about confidence and what it is by definition, it's the belief in yourself and your abilities.
00:40:40
Speaker
And I think it's important to also mention that there's a difference between confidence and self-efficacy and that self-efficacy has to do with really specific scenarios, settings, or kind of tasks.
00:40:51
Speaker
Let's take a variation, for example. And someone's like, be confident, be confident. But maybe you're like freaking out about the hops on point in the middle. So you could probably be confident in the bulk of the variation, but if you doubt your ability to do those hops on point, it's very likely going to make your whole confidence go down. And then you're not going to be thinking about all the things that you do really well.
00:41:09
Speaker
And so then maybe coming at it and figuring out, okay, so it's actually this part that's making me feel really insecure. So I need to work on not only working on this skill, but work on that skill up the hop some point, but work on also trusting myself and trusting my training in that moment and building that in over time. So that next time I get to run the variation or, you know, the few next times I'm reminding myself like, Hey, actually,
00:41:30
Speaker
I know this part's a little stressful, that's okay. You're allowed to be stressed there because it's horrifying. But we want to remember like you've actually been really targeted in this preparation and you know you can do this when you're tired, when you're feeling good, with a dead shoe, with a hard shoe, right? Like create the conditions that could happen so that you believe in your ability to do it despite what's happening.
00:41:48
Speaker
That is a way. That was a really specific example, but it's hard to generalize it. Yeah. No, that's good. I feel like it's the difference between being like well-rehearsed and well-trained. Yeah. Right? It's like you can rehearse one thing over and over again to get you really good at that one thing, but in other conditions, like you can do it in your studio with the exact tempo that you like, with your teacher watching, like all of the conditions, the way that you like them, when you can get really good at doing it that way. But does it translate onto stage? Does it translate if you have a conductor who's playing your variation really slow, like all the other things that could come into play? Absolutely.
00:42:20
Speaker
building that confidence, do you think it helps for the dancers to, like as a teacher, would it be like helpful to be like, here's a crazy condition and see what happens? Or is that like traumatizing? I think that's a great question. If you're going to you need to know why you're doing it and probably communicate that to the dancers. so They feel like they have some sort of not quite autonomy where they could be like no, I don't want to do that.
00:42:39
Speaker
But so they don't feel like something's just happening to them for trauma and purposes, but more like, hey, we set things up. in as perfect of a way as possible, but sometimes things happen. And we want to make sure that we're prepared for best case scenario, worst case scenario, and probable scenario. And the best way that we can do that is by almost preparing for the what ifs. And I think that maybe not taking out like critical rehearsal time where it's like, all right, here we go. You're going dance with one shoe on and your costume falling off.
00:43:07
Speaker
But I don't think it's bad to have conversations about like, hey, what are we worried about here? it is live music, for example, the conductor might not play the tempo like we're going to hope, but like something could happen. And so for stamina and for experience and just for fun and for science a little bit, we're going to change the tempo today and we're going to see how you can respond to the environmental cues.
00:43:25
Speaker
Something like that would be a great experience because it might also not happen right then. But maybe if they go to a trainee program, something happens, they'll have that moment where it's like, oh my gosh, I actually trained for this. I can do this.
00:43:36
Speaker
So I think that, yeah, like building in plan ABC, excellent. Amazing. What other challenges do you see dancers face, especially dancers as compared to other athletes or performers? Like you said, dance...
00:43:48
Speaker
It's an athletic endeavor, but it's, of course, the artistic side makes it so different than, say, like football. So what are the challenges that we're facing that other athletes maybe are not? There's a lot that parallels.
00:44:00
Speaker
And the more I learn about other, what I would call traditional sport, like anything that's like NCAA or Olympics, the more I'm like, wow, it's not as different as I thought. But I do think there are some really ah specific cultural nuances in ballet where it's that submissive culture. You're taught to conform the pushing through.
00:44:16
Speaker
pain and stoicism is like almost glamorized and encouraged. And I think that we're a bit behind in terms of best practices and what we know from even dance science and, you know, sports medicine, performance science, all these things. And so I think that because of that, we are up against some other kind of obstacles that I don't want to say aren't present in sport, but there's more resources in sport. There are more experts in kind of the closely related domains for helping athletes,
00:44:43
Speaker
show up and show out at their best consistently. And so I think that ballet is hard because not only do you not have a lot of those supplemental resources to make sure that you're physically doing things in as healthy and as sustainable a way as possible, but you also don't know what resources are available. You don't know how to find them and you do And now this isn't an absolute, like there are people who don't have ballet experience who are wonderful, but I do think that it's really hard to get people from the outside to understand the inside of the ballet world and why you can't necessarily, or why you don't feel comfortable going up to your ballet master or your director and be like, hey ah this is how I'm feeling, like, let's talk about
Support Systems and Mentorship
00:45:20
Speaker
it. Like that actually probably is bad advice.
00:45:22
Speaker
And so some of those like little unique considerations that at least in my world of sport performance psychology and like mental skills training, If you're going to help an athlete, a dancer in this case, you need to hopefully understand their culture so that you can work together to guide them in a way that's going to set them up for success. And so I think that looking just at the different dynamics that play the hierarchy, all of those challenges, it's hard because a lot of people don't understand, for example, how you feel if you accidentally took someone's bar spot on the first day.
00:45:53
Speaker
very Like, that is a horror. That is just the stress of not knowing where to stand. And you all the stra you're like, okay, I just, and then, and then the, like, someone comes in and you're like, gosh, oh no, I gotta leave. oh that was terrible I know. It's just, you just hover on the periphery until you kind of think, and then someone comes in late and you're like in their spot. It's like, oh, your dance bag is in the wrong spot.
00:46:15
Speaker
Yes. All of those things like that is, it's just the culture of ballet, whether or not we think that everything is great. This is not to be like totally um pessimistic, but like, I don't think that that is the hill I'm going to die on trying to change in my lifetime because ballet is ballet.
00:46:30
Speaker
And we have to know that we have to do small things that we can to set dancers up well, to cope with it and to manage and to not have all of those challenging things, like get to the point where it takes them out of the endeavor completely.
00:46:42
Speaker
But I think that there's, at least in my opinion, there's a lot of things where like, yeah, It's weird, but it's ballet and we love it. And so instead of you know being like, oh, we got to change this, this and this. Yes, in the long run, like these things are really kind of authoritarian and probably we could do better without.
00:46:57
Speaker
But in the short term, how are we going to set dancers up to cope and to manage and to still excel and reach their full potential in challenging conditions? That's kind of like what I think those challenges are because it's it's a closed door world and many people don't know.
00:47:11
Speaker
i mean, it's fun. It's cool is that way too, though. But yeah, it's hard. It's very hard. So what is your advice for a dancer is struggling with something? You know, you said like you can't always go up to your director and say like, hey, have a blister. right Or like I'm feeling really scared of this step and it's giving me a lot of anxiety and my heart rate's 400 and I'm feeling really nervous and I don't want to do the run through. Yeah, good luck.
00:47:31
Speaker
You cannot say that. Yeah, so what do you do in those situations? What's the advice to help dancers cope with these scenarios where you don't know? And what is the line? i always feel like that's a struggle dancers have is like knowing when you've reached the point where you should say something and when it's like, this is discomfort versus pain, all of that.
00:47:48
Speaker
I mean, no one knows your body better than you. That's a big thing. And trusting yourself too. I don't know if it's just me. I don't think it is, but it could be. I feel like sometimes I at least felt like I needed permission to put my well-being first.
00:48:02
Speaker
Whether that meant, you know, saying, hey, I don't think I can do this run through on point right now. Not even for a blister, but it's like, you know, whatever. Blister, deal with it. That's that. But, you know, or I'm just coming back. I think I'm going to be okay, but I think that it might be pushing it. Like, could i have my second cast do this or whatever?
00:48:18
Speaker
Knowing yourself and trusting yourself. And then also it's so hard because every director is different and every company culture is different. So I don't want to say something as like general blanketed advice, but I think also... trust yourself that you know the dynamics of the place that you're in and that you'll likely know what to do.
00:48:35
Speaker
And that means a variety of things, whether it's like, hey, communicate with the PT and have the PT communicate if you have that. Even just seeking advice from an older dancer or someone who's been there longer and being like, hey, this is what I think I should do. I'm scared of this. like I think you don't have to go at it alone.
00:48:52
Speaker
So leaning on support and also maybe that's working with an outside PT if you're not getting what you need or working with a sports psychology person, mental skills, working with someone even for mental health related things.
00:49:04
Speaker
Again, you don't have to go at it alone. And a little bit of support can go a very long way, especially for dancers, because we're used to being told to gri and bear it. And that if you can't, then you are not cut out.
00:49:15
Speaker
And while you do have to put up with a lot and you probably need to not say anything while that's happening, There are times and places where you can lean on support. And I think that my recommendation would just be like, for example, work with a nutritionist, work with someone who's giving you, you know, personalized strength and conditioning injury prevention programs.
00:49:33
Speaker
If I think of it as like all the different facets, nutrition, injury, strength, rehab, mental, physical, technical, all the different things that make a elite athlete.
00:49:44
Speaker
If there's an area in there where you feel like you're not exactly up to the level you want to be at, Take it upon yourself to reach out to someone and get the resources or even just talk or do research on your own to get there. Like you don't have to go at it alone. Now I know there are challenges, but I think without being like too overly specific, that's kind of what I would say.
00:50:03
Speaker
Yeah. For teachers or coaches or parents or directors, anyone who's in that space in the dance world, can you speak to what are some of the ways you can help dancers build resilience and thrive in this really intense environment? How do you build that challenging environment that's also supportive?
00:50:20
Speaker
Yeah. So a few things are coming to mind. The first thing is focusing on rewarding effort, not just outcomes. So if, for example, someone is really struggling with a pirouette or a technical aspect, instead of only saying things like, oh, not quite, not quite, or, oh, look at this person doing, nope, not there, try again, try again tomorrow. Like, that's good. That's fine. It's not terrible. But even if they're not quite there,
00:50:46
Speaker
maybe say, oh my gosh, I can see you were really focusing on applying that one correction. Like I see you working on this. I see you thinking about this. I can tell, keep this up. You're going to get there. So finding a way for your feedback to really emphasize effort versus outcome, because effort is what A is going to get them to that outcome. But effort is also a an immediately controllable thing, which then takes me into my next point.
00:51:10
Speaker
Effort is something that can help a dancer feel like they have more autonomy in their process. And just because of cultural aspects in the studio, there's a lot that dancers don't get to choose. We're usually in uniforms from a young age.
00:51:22
Speaker
We don't speak out of turn. We don't set the combinations. If we're tired, we still have to repeat it, right? All of these things. And that's a part of the training. But what we know from this theory of motivation called self-determination theory, there are three conditions that are kind of conducive to optimal wellbeing in an environment. And that is for someone to have autonomy,
00:51:42
Speaker
someone to have a sense of competence and for there to be opportunities for relatedness. And so when we break that down, we're like, okay, we want a dancer to feel like they have some agency, some control over something.
00:51:55
Speaker
Now, of course, there are going to be limitations, but even if it's just asking them, hey, do you want to market with music first or should we break it down and go through it? Giving them option when appropriate.
00:52:07
Speaker
Because then it makes them feel like, okay, my voice matters in an appropriate way still. Competence. Hey, you're getting there. You're on the right track. That was really great the way that you approached that step.
00:52:18
Speaker
Oh my gosh, the way you're working right now, the amount of effort that you're putting in and the focus you have, this is exactly what we're looking for. Boom. Suddenly, maybe their leg and their foot is like this, but they're like, wow, I'm competent in the way I'm leaning into this. so that's going to create a better self-image too. And then the relatedness piece could even be something like,
00:52:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh, raise your hand if, of course, you have to be careful knowing your group, but like, raise your hand if you guys find Adagio challenging. Boom. Suddenly someone who maybe is like, I'm the only one because I can't get my leg up, maybe a silly example, but it's like just seeing around the room, oh, I'm not alone in this.
00:52:52
Speaker
or again, getting dancers to realize that there is a connection, whether it be even to the person in the front of the room or to their peers that related in this piece. And then beyond that, to kind of like wrap all of this up, I think that knowing, especially in ballet and to create professionals, if that's the type of school, and if not, that's fine
Encouragement and Resources for Dancers
00:53:11
Speaker
too.
00:53:11
Speaker
It's, Ballet is good to do for fun as well, but even though sometimes we forget once we get a little older. Knowing if you're trying to produce high performing dancers, that the best outcomes are when an environment is high pressure and high expectation, but also high support.
00:53:27
Speaker
And so using some of the things that I mentioned earlier about what effective support can look like. If you have high pressure and low support, we're going to have an issue. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. But the technical phrasing is helpful for sure yeah to put into that way. Yeah.
00:53:40
Speaker
Amazing. Okay. So for a dancer who's listening today who wants to get started with improving their mental performance, what's one... small but really impactful thing that they could do today?
00:53:52
Speaker
Great question. And all the different little avenues that we can go down when it comes to sports psychology, mental performance, I'm obsessed with it, honestly. I feel, one, like something doesn't have to be broken in order for you to want to level up.
00:54:04
Speaker
So it's not like you have to wait to fix something. You can enhance as well. On top of that, the first thing we have to do is we have to become aware of basically – what we're experiencing, what we're thinking, and how that is impacting our performance. And so something that everyone can do today is they can start to pay attention to the impact of their self-talk, which is the things that you say to yourself about yourself.
00:54:26
Speaker
So the impact of your self-talk on how you show up in the studio. So if you're going into class and you're feeling like, you know, you're just looking at yourself in the mirror, you're like, wow, I look out of shape today. Like this leotard looks bad.
00:54:38
Speaker
oh my gosh, and and it's just like starting to eat at you and maybe you're starting to feel less confident, pause for a second and ask yourself, okay, wait, what am I telling myself right now? And then beyond that, the next question is to ask, is this helpful?
00:54:52
Speaker
So instead of positive or negative, because that's pretty black and white, and sometimes I know some people, I work with some people where like they like to give themselves a little bit of tough love and that actually helps their performance. But the question of saying, is this helpful or is this productive is lot more easily applicable than think positively because like it's a nice intention, but sometimes that's not realistic. And so if you're having a bad day, it's okay to have a bad day, but maybe just say, Hey, is what I'm saying to myself helpful right now?
00:55:19
Speaker
And if it's not, then you've just taken the first step towards reframing it to make your thoughts work for you rather than against you. Love that. Last question for you. If you had to give an aspiring pro dancer one piece of advice based on all of your years of experience, what would you tell them?
00:55:37
Speaker
Don't give up. For real. There's a quote that really helped me. I came across it when I had just found out I was injured and before I even knew like everything that was going to occur. Actually, two. Two quotes. One, it doesn't matter how slowly you go as long as you don't stop.
00:55:51
Speaker
And that is something I think when we run into setbacks and we run into roadblocks and things like That's okay. If you keep going, that is the only ingredient that you need to be successful.
00:56:02
Speaker
Like overall, right? All these other things are going to come, but you just do not give up. Keep going even when you feel like every single door is closed. Because if you want it then you will find a way. That's how I'm sitting here right now. It's not because I'm special or different or anything. I remember having this pivotal moment where i was like, oh my gosh, wow, that's the secret. I was like, it's because you didn't stop.
00:56:20
Speaker
So do not stop if you want it. And then second to that, a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor. So knowing that all of those challenges, roadblocks, those moments where you want to stop and you choose not to are actually making you better in the long run, even when you don't see it.
00:56:35
Speaker
It'll teach you how to navigate the other things that will come just in life. So yeah, that's what I would say. Don't give up. Yeah. Okay, for any dancer listening who wants to learn more about you or your work or...
00:56:46
Speaker
see any of your amazing resources, can you share where to find you? My Instagram is behindthecurtain.spp. And I'm also working with a private practice called Persistent Psych.
00:56:58
Speaker
It was actually founded by a former ballet dancer as well. There's a link on my Instagram, or you can go to persistentpsych.com and book a free consult or group sessions, one-on-ones, all of my work there. And Persistent Psych is just an awesome resource to check out as well, really influential in helping bring these resources to the dance world. Amazing. Thank you, Lauren. This was so fun and so great
Podcast Conclusion and Invitation
00:57:19
Speaker
to chat with you. I really appreciate all of your time today.
00:57:21
Speaker
You too. Thank you so much for having me, Caitlin. This is awesome. Yeah.
00:57:27
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:57:39
Speaker
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00:57:52
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.