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56. A New Chapter for Dance Kaleidoscope with Artistic Director Joshua Blake Carter
5 Plays4 minutes ago
In this inspiring episode, I sit down with Dance Kaleidoscope Artistic Director Joshua Blake Carter to explore his multifaceted dance journey from a theater-loving high schooler in Atlanta to an influential choreographer and artistic leader in the dance industry.
Joshua shares pivotal moments in his development, including his time at the University of Arizona, his early choreographic commissions, and his 14-year tenure with Giordano Dance Chicago.
Now at the helm of Dance Kaleidoscope, he opens up about his leadership philosophy, audition process, and long-term vision for the company. Whether you're a dancer, educator, or choreographer, this episode is full of rich insights on persistence, artistry, and creating space for others to thrive.
Key Topics:
✨The transformative role of college dance and the importance of asking for opportunities
✨Navigating his first professional choreographic commission while still a college student
✨Transitioning from student to professional dancer and striking a realistic balance
✨What makes a great dancer in auditions (hint: it’s not perfection)
✨Why collaboration and respect are the cornerstones of his leadership style
✨His vision for Dance Kaleidoscope and what makes it a fulfilling place to work
✨Advice for young dancers on building a sustainable, long-term career
Connect with Joshua:
JOSHUA INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/jbcchoreography
DANCE KALEIDOSCOPE IG: instagram.com/dance_kaleidoscope_indy
DANCE KALEIDOSCOPE WEBSITE: www.dancekal.org
Links and Resources:
Get your copy of The Intentional Career Handbook
Set up ticketing for your next event with DRT (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Vision for Dance Kaleidoscope
00:00:00
Speaker
I want that to be our reputation. I want people to go, okay, I know I can go to Indianapolis and dance at Dance Kaleidoscope and be artistically fulfilled. I know that I'm going to be part of pushing boundaries. So we're not just getting kind of complacent and doing the same old thing.
00:00:15
Speaker
but also I can go there and make a living and have a life with great leadership and great coworkers. Because again, we're spending more time in the studio every day than we are on stage. So enjoying that part of your work environment is I think super important.
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm Kaitlyn, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:49
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Joshua Blake Carter's Dance Background
00:01:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina Podcast. I'm your host, Kaitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Joshua Blake Carter. Joshua is the Artistic Director of Dance Kaleidoscope. Prior to his appointment to Artistic Director, Joshua had a 14-year career with Giordano Dance Chicago, where he served in many different roles, including company dance dancer, director of Giordano II, and operations manager.
00:01:31
Speaker
We have a lot to get into today, but I want to start from the very beginning of your journey. Why did you take your very first dance class? Oh, well, I went to a performing arts high school in Atlanta where I grew up and I went for theater. I had a teacher in middle school who was, I think, looking out for me, honestly, like knew I would get eaten alive if I went to my normal high school. And she told my dad of all people, like there's this performing arts school and Joshua should look into it.
00:01:59
Speaker
And he came home and he's like, is this something you'd like to do? And the only theater I'd really done was like church theater, like, you know, pageant plays and things like that. So I auditioned and I got in and they said, well, if you want to be in the musicals, you need to learn how to dance.
00:02:13
Speaker
So I kind of went home and was like, well, dad, they said I need to take dance class. And he was like, okay, let's sign you up. So I started taking dance outside of the school because I was at the time they only had, um they only offered it to intermediate and advanced levels for dance.
00:02:29
Speaker
So whereas like theater and voice had four different levels, dance only had two. So I took a semester at the Georgia Ballet in adult classes. Like I was in classes with everybody who was like 80 down to people who were like 14, 15, like I was.
00:02:43
Speaker
That's where it all began. I remember the first jazz class I took, we did a combination to Destiny's Child, Bootylicious. So I'm sure some people some listeners won't even know that song, but it's a classic.
00:02:56
Speaker
Yes. From there, were you just enamored with dance right away or was it something you were still doing to supplement your theater?
Transition from Drama to Dance
00:03:04
Speaker
It was pretty much right away. So when I first got to the high school, so you you declared a major. So I was ah a drama major, voice minor.
00:03:12
Speaker
And by my second semester, I had taken the voice away and become a dance minor. And, you know, again, thrown in with all of these intermediate and advanced dancers. And yeah I mean, I remember my first class actually at the high school doing a battement across the floor and falling flat on my back.
00:03:29
Speaker
And pretty sure Billy Ty and Colt Prattas, who are both have been on Broadway and Colts and Aladdin right now, and they came and they scooped me up off the floor and they said, keep going. You have to keep going no matter what happens.
00:03:40
Speaker
And that was like one of the first valuable lessons I learned there was like, okay, even if you fall, you have to get up and keep going because people are going to come behind you and trample on you no matter what. Yeah. But yeah, so then after by my sophomore year, I i changed my focus fully to dance.
00:03:54
Speaker
And I was a dance major and a voice minor. And I abandoned the theater altogether, which was so funny, because that was kind of my path to get there. Yeah.
University Education and Preparation
00:04:03
Speaker
From your high school experience, you decided to attend college for dance. How did you choose to take that path?
00:04:09
Speaker
Thankfully, I mean, again, being in this performing arts school, so lucky that they put a lot of effort into educating us and our parents really about the college career path. So, you know, not only was I learning about all of the different programs and perhaps what type of program I'd like to attend.
00:04:27
Speaker
Our parents were being educated alongside of us, which was great because where I ultimately decided to go was very far away, which we'll get there in a second. But, you know, there was a moment where I thought I would go to school for musical theater and that I would was going to perhaps pursue that Broadway path.
00:04:43
Speaker
But again, thankfully, i kept getting exposed to dance company. I didn't really know that a dance company was a thing. You know I knew we had the Atlanta Ballet, but that was really all we had. I didn't know, you know, I knew...
00:04:54
Speaker
who Gus Stradano was because we were educated about that. I didn't really understand that he had a company. you know I didn't know all of these things. And so thankfully, by the time I did start really looking seriously at colleges, I knew more about what was out there and you know knew I wanted to be in a BFA program and I wanted to be in a program that offered jazz.
00:05:16
Speaker
Because a lot of college dance programs don't even have it as an elective, at least at the time they didn't. Programs, I think now, are much more well-rounded or at least well-rounded in their supplemental offerings. But the University of Arizona had a triple track program. You did it all. You had to do ballet, you had to do jazz, and you had to do modern.
00:05:35
Speaker
And so that's really what attracted me to that program. And thankfully, they were attracted to me too, because that was my top choice. And I'm glad I was able to get in and go there because I was definitely ah hot mess still at 18. I needed four more years of school. I was ah talking to a young dancer the other day who's about to graduate. And I said, did you do it in three or four years? And he said, oh, four. And I said, great.
00:06:00
Speaker
I encourage the four. So many dancers now want to get out of school and get working. And it's like work is always going to be there. School is such a great place to make mistakes. If you want to choreograph, you get free dancers and free space, and it's really a safe space to fail. And same with dancing. You've got all this time where nobody, people are investing in you as an artist, not necessarily as an employee quite yet.
00:06:24
Speaker
You know, where That becomes kind of tricky when you get to that place of you're an artist, but you also work here. So anyway, I really loved my time there. And that's how I ended up in Arizona.
College Lessons and Early Choreography
00:06:35
Speaker
Can you share some of the big lessons you learned during college? How do you feel like being at U of A prepared you for your professional career?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, when I was there, they really treated the program like a company. You know, you might be in every piece in a show, you might be in one piece in a show, but the way that it was the structure and the teachers, the professors we had really were all coming to us from these working professional careers. that They had so much to share with us first and foremost, but I never felt like I was in a place where I got to...
00:07:09
Speaker
Coast or, or if you did get to that place in college where you're like, I don't want to try it. Guess what they don't do anymore. They don't push you. They don't hold your hand unless you're pushing yourself. That was a huge lesson because there was a short time where I was having this kind of love-hate relationship with ballet and I audited ballet for an entire semester.
00:07:30
Speaker
And as you might expect, my ballet training went down the drain, but I learned so much about that. I learned that I needed it to support what I wanted to do. You know, i like to be clear about that. I think there's this whole idea that you must do ballet to be successful in dance. And I've tried to get away from preaching that narrative because you can do so many things and be successful in dance.
00:07:52
Speaker
But for what I wanted to do, I needed that ballet training. So I learned that really quickly, that they're not going to, they're like, okay, you've already got your ballet credit. Sure, you can audit, see what that does for you.
00:08:03
Speaker
That was a lesson. You know, I learned too, that right when I first got to school, we had Frank Chavez who used to be the artistic director at River North Dance Chicago. And he staged this work, Gruesome Sweet. And I was, as a freshman, cast in the second cast, which I thought was the best thing ever.
00:08:19
Speaker
And we never performed it. And so that's something else that I learned early was like how important it is to be a cover, to be there, to know the work, but you know you may not get the opportunity to perform that piece and dealing with that disappointment, you have to figure out how to flip that, right? Because it doesn't have to be disappointment. There's a lot that you learn from that experience.
00:08:41
Speaker
And ultimately the last piece I ever performed with Giordano Dance Chicago was Gruesome Sweet by Frank Chavez. So I did get to dance it eventually. It just, you know, it was many years later.
00:08:53
Speaker
The other thing I learned while I was there is the power of asking. I think a lot of times we're afraid just to ask either for help or support or resources.
00:09:05
Speaker
My senior year, I wanted to do a big benefit for the Southern Arizona AIDS Foundation as my senior project. The end of my junior year, I started talking to some of the faculty about it. And then I went to the head of the department and asked, could I do it?
00:09:18
Speaker
And he said, yes, we'll give you the theater for two nights and have at it. And we produced, me and two of my friends produced this evening of dance that raised money for the Southern Arizona AIDS Foundation. And had I and not thought to just go, well, let's see, the worst they can say is no, I would have never known I had that in me.
00:09:39
Speaker
I started submitting my choreography to festivals my junior year of college and started getting in. And i remember, still remember the feeling of, because back then you still to mail DVDs.
00:09:52
Speaker
It was not sending links to So I remember burning the DVDs in my computer and then mailing them off and thinking, God, are they going to take me seriously when they see that I'm 21-year-old college student? And guess what?
00:10:06
Speaker
They did. They liked the work. And so so anyway, I encourage people. i'm like, ask the questions. See if you can do it. I mean, worst they're going to ever say to you is no, and you try again another time or a different avenue. Sometimes no doesn't mean never. It just means try it a different way.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah. What drew you to the choreography?
First Major Commission
00:10:24
Speaker
but Well, thankfully in high school, we had a teacher who was, she really had this idea of how to really well round the program. And some of it was, she had to test us, of course, because it's school and you have to have something to measure.
00:10:38
Speaker
But we learned so much. We got so much dance history. We got so much vocabulary, things that I've seen professional ballet dancers spell, you know, French words incorrectly, you know, the ballet vocabulary. And I'm like, how do you, this is your job.
00:10:50
Speaker
But we were tested on that stuff. But the other thing that she really valued was also then that artistic part of it and getting to create on each other. So I started pretty early. I mean, I think I choreographed my first piece, we'll call it. I don't know if that's even what it was, but we'll call it that. Probably my sophomore or early junior year of high school,
00:11:09
Speaker
And there was that cliche thing, though, and I say cliche, but it's not a bad cliche of like, you know, that how dance frees you. It was almost cathartic, but I didn't know that at the time, you know, like, yeah, I was maybe an angsty teenager, but I didn't really...
00:11:24
Speaker
understand how much that piece of it would take me down the road the piece of it being that catharsis the way that it frees you the way that it can be its own kind of therapy because you somehow you know i've made dances before where i didn't know what they were about going in and then i get to the end of it and i'm like oh This piece is about my mom and her journey. And there's a famous quote, and I don't know who said it. It could even be an anonymous famous quote, but it was for writers. Write about what you know.
00:11:54
Speaker
And I feel that about choreography. I choreograph about what I know. So I think that piece of it really attracted me too, was the ability to storytell, whether it's a story that people should understand beginning, middle and end, or the story of just a beautiful piece of moving art that takes you on a journey. I mean, you can go look at a Jackson Pollock painting get a story from it, but it's not the same as looking at the mid-century Gothic.
00:12:20
Speaker
You know, the two things are so completely different, but they both evoke emotions. That's what I think attracted me to it. I also always felt like I had these ideas in my head that I couldn't execute as a dancer.
00:12:35
Speaker
So I could put them on other people and make that happen. I could kind of bring these ideas to life. And I still sort of feel that way. I felt that way. my Even as I improved as a dancer, I always kind of felt like I was inspired by watching what others could do and kind of living through them in a way i was very satisfied by, you know, not in a way that I was like, oh, I wish I could do that in a way that I was like, I'm glad you're doing that. And I get to sit back and enjoy it.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think the early part of it was really just was trying to kind of get those young ideas out and embodied in other people that I was inspired by. What was your first professional choreographic commission? Actually, well, now they're called Wonderbound, but it was Ballet Nouveau Colorado when I worked there.
00:13:20
Speaker
And they had this Dance Makers 2.0 choreography competition. and They only did it two years. And it was right when Garrett Ammon and Don Fay took over it at Ballet Nouveau.
00:13:34
Speaker
Again, i was a senior in college and had this one piece that i finally thought was good. And I submitted it yeah like right before the deadline, like days before the deadline.
00:13:47
Speaker
And I want to say at this point, we might have been able to get a YouTube link. I don't know. Actually, i think this was still a DVD, but I sent it in and they called me, never thinking I was ever going to hear anything besides thank you. Come back you know another year. And and They called me like on January 2nd to say, you're one of three finalists and can you get here? So then I had to you know ask for permission to leave school for two weeks. And I had like all of these things I had to jump through, but it was the coolest first commission because
00:14:22
Speaker
It challenged me in so many ways that could have taken me years. I would have dabbled and tiptoed to this jumping off place. The longest piece I had choreographed to this point was eight minutes, and they wanted something that was 15 to 21 minutes.
00:14:36
Speaker
So I picked this piece of music that was super challenging, and it was 18 minutes in length. Went in and choreographed. I had five days to do the whole piece at the time.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, it was an experience. And it was crazy because I remember it being my senior year. So I went to Colorado for a week, made the dance, flew to Chicago, auditioned for Giordano, flew back to Arizona and then back to Colorado the week after for the premiere.
00:15:03
Speaker
And just thinking this could be my life, like jet setting like this. You know, it felt so it it still feels glamorous for sure. But at the time I felt very glamorous. Yeah, and it went on for two weeks. The competition was a two-week thing where they had different judges from, they always had the artistic director and the audience got a vote. And then they had each show, they had two different artists from the community that got to contribute their vote.
00:15:27
Speaker
And ultimately, I was selected as the winner of that competition and got to go back in the fall of their next season and create another work for them. My first two works were for Ballet Nouveau or or now Wonderbound.
00:15:40
Speaker
Was it intimidating being a college student choreographing on professional dancers? Yes. Oh my God. i remember having such imposter syndrome, not even knowing what imposter syndrome was at the time.
00:15:53
Speaker
i was having it for sure. Thankfully, two of my friends from college were dancing there. One had just graduated the year prior. He was there. And then one of my college roommates who had graduated two years prior was also dancing there.
00:16:08
Speaker
So that helped. It helped that I knew people. i will say Garrett Ammon and Dawn Fay were super helpful to me in that time. First of all, Dawn don had just finished dancing. I mean, she kind of had decided to stop dancing to relocate with Garrett to take over the company.
00:16:25
Speaker
So she would still get up and learn all the movement. I mean, she was like in the back of the room. i was so impressed by her. Just incredible, but also could count music. It was the best scenario, especially like I said, this music was super challenging.
00:16:38
Speaker
And she's like oh, hold on, I'll count it. I'll count it. And I was so grateful for her. And then Garrett gave me a lot of good feedback. I mean, in times I didn't always see it until later. He'd say, oh you know, this part's really close to being, there's this musical thing happening. Like if you were to just evolve it or change it or shape it, you know, you would really hit this thing in the music. And sometimes I'd be like, well,
00:16:58
Speaker
I liked it in this other way, you know? Then years later, revisiting some of those works, I was like, oh, he was so right, which is great. I think that happens to a lot of dance people in leadership and education positions that we give advice that may not get taken or understood until years down the line.
00:17:17
Speaker
So ultimately, yes, it was very intimidating. And, you know, there were definitely some some ballerinas that made me a little nervous, but ultimately...
Defining Success for Aspiring Dancers
00:17:27
Speaker
They were all very welcoming to me and super sweet. And I try to still have this today. I'm just very much a collaborative person in the studio. And I think I probably learned it then because I did not feel like I could stand in front of the room and be kind of like a do this and do that. It was like, how does this feel? And let's organically create this together. And I think that's because the dancers always felt like peers and never like, I'm the leader and you're the, you must listen.
00:17:54
Speaker
There is so much dancers need to learn as they pursue a professional dance career. It can be completely overwhelming. Where do you even start? With your intention. To me, this is the first step in defining success on your terms.
00:18:10
Speaker
Once you have an intention for your career based on your core values, you can begin to hone in on a strategy to make your goals a reality. But without it, you will always feel out of alignment, out of control, and ultimately unfulfilled in your career.
00:18:25
Speaker
So how do you figure out what success means to you? With the Brainy Ballerina Intentional Career Handbook. This is not just your ordinary book. The Intentional Career Handbook walks you through it everything you need to think about as you embark on your dance career.
00:18:39
Speaker
With over 50 guided question prompts, you will dive deep into determining what really matters to see you in a dance career based on your individual core values. By the end of this handbook, you will not only be crystal clear on your goals, but in the mindset you need to make it happen.
00:18:56
Speaker
Tap the link in the show notes to download your copy today and start pursuing your dance career with intention.
Challenges in Professional Dance Transition
00:19:04
Speaker
So during that time, it's your senior year, and you're also thinking about getting a job dancing. Did you only audition for Giordano, or were you doing like a full audition tour? I did two auditions, so I will say I had a very lucky scenario.
00:19:20
Speaker
But part of it, I wouldn't even know if luck is the word. I'd put in the work, first of all. I'd gone to Giordano's summer program twice. The first year I went, you didn't at the time have to go for the entire...
00:19:32
Speaker
two months. This is back in in the day that if you were there on scholarship with the company, it was like six weeks to two months. So the first year I went, I could only go for two weeks. I could only afford to go for two weeks.
00:19:44
Speaker
I had black hair that was like dyed jet black and I had this big red streak in the front of it. And I wore this red unitard and just was not like, I was very like trying to be what was trendy in dance.
00:20:02
Speaker
And not to say there's not a place for that. I think there absolutely is, but it was not there. And I remember Nan, just Nan Giordano just did not know what to do with me.
00:20:12
Speaker
So then i came back two years later. The following year, I had an injury and and wasn't able to go. And then the summer between my junior and senior year, I went back and I shaved my head. I was wearing all black. I paid attention to what it was that the aesthetic of that company was.
00:20:29
Speaker
And I was able to be there for the entire duration of the summer, which helped because then I was training with her. She saw me change. She saw me evolve. So going back to your question, when I was looking at auditioning, I knew I wanted to be in Chicago. And at the time,
00:20:45
Speaker
And that Chicago still has a very vibrant dance scene. It just, there were more companies then, different companies then that kind of fit my bill. So I knew that I wanted to audition for Giornano. I knew that I wanted to audition for River North.
00:20:57
Speaker
And then there were a couple other places that I was going to look at or consider, but I was able to, during that week spring break, do the Giordano open audition and then get a private audition at River North.
00:21:11
Speaker
So I did those two. The River North was so intimidating because there were three of us, all U of A dancers. And i will never forget, they taught us Robert Battle's Train.
00:21:22
Speaker
It's so fast and so detailed and... Frank Chavez came in and he said, okay, one at a time. And we didn't even get the benefit of doing it in like the three of us in a group.
00:21:34
Speaker
Oh my God, i it was so stressful. And it was also March in Chicago, which can be so freezing. And it was. So I remember the studio being so hot because it was radiator heat. So we were just like,
00:21:47
Speaker
pouring in sweat, thinking so fast. So those were my two auditions. And thankfully I got the job with Dornano. I was, I got hired into the second company from that, that audition. And I remember when Nan called me, you know, she's like, you still have some work to do.
00:22:02
Speaker
Cause there were dancers better than me, male presenting dancers that were better than me in that audition. And I remember thinking, oh, well it'd be great to get the job, but I don't think I will. And she said to me on the phone, I'd rather work with you because I know that you are coachable and trainable than work with some of the other dancers that were at that audition who I think are, you know, I don't remember what the word she used, but basically who had those kind of, well, I'm already great attitudes.
00:22:28
Speaker
And I really appreciated that. And that's actually stuck with me. you know, my entire career is trying to be that person that people work with that is, know,
00:22:39
Speaker
coachable or just moldable in the way of even as a leader, if somebody comes to me and has got an idea that could improve something that we're already doing, I'm not going to go, well, it's not my idea. We're not going to do that. I'm going to that's really great.
00:22:51
Speaker
Let me change my way of thinking and how can we implement this? And so hearing her say those words all those years ago kind of really has stuck with me in a lot of ways. What was that transition like from student to professional? Yeah.
00:23:05
Speaker
Oh, I mean, God, what I think people aren't really prepared for is you're not prepared for a work day. In college, by your senior year especially, like, you're taking what classes you want, you know, whatever classes you want, for the most part. Like, I know in the end, I was taking only dance classes, and I had one academic class left over that was a lecture class. So if I didn't want to go, didn't have to go.
00:23:29
Speaker
And you could take a nap in the middle of the day and you were still rehearsing in the evening. So you were in class during the day. You might have time to go home for a little bit. Like, I think that transition is one that like, it's just a shock because, you know, you come in and now like for us here at Dance Kaleidoscope, we work 10 to 4 every day.
00:23:48
Speaker
you know, you're going to get company class every day and you're going to be either learning choreography, running choreography, working the details out, whatever the day may hold. So I think that's challenging. I think starting to figure out money in a different way, again, something you're not prepared for. Nobody teaches you about how to manage your money.
00:24:06
Speaker
And I think there's also this feeling of, okay, I've just moved to a new city and I have a job and I need to go out. I need to do stuff. but You still want to live your life, but how do you do it if you don't have the money to do it?
00:24:19
Speaker
And at the time when I danced in the second company, it was still an unpaid position. Now those positions are all paid and salaried, which is incredible. But at the time we weren't. So we were all, I was teaching at the time. I taught five days a week and I worked at express two days a week.
00:24:35
Speaker
And then I was able to pick up another day of teaching, which paid better than express. So I like took a day away from, and eventually it just left express altogether. But yeah, trying to figure that piece out too. Like our work day at Giornano at the time was 9.30 to 4.
00:24:49
Speaker
And so I would leave at 4 and I would drive to the suburbs and teach. So then sometimes you're getting home at 10 o'clock at night and you have to be back at the studio in less than 12 hours.
00:25:00
Speaker
So those are the things I think that make your transition challenging. And then the other things that you have really choices about, like having a social life and finding that balance, I think that that's a big one for students too, because college can tend to be a more celebratory lifestyle.
00:25:20
Speaker
And you cannot do that and be a working professional. You know, I think that a lot of of young dancers learn that quickly too. And, you know, you either see them be successful and, you know, manage it all, or I've seen some people have to kind of redirect themselves or take a step back from perhaps the job because they haven't figured out how to do this balance yet. And so they're not fulfilling their role as dancer or whatever it is. so That part of the transition, I think, is a challenge. But then there's this rewarding thing of going, oh my gosh, I'm a working professional.
00:25:54
Speaker
And I think that, again, finding perspective. And even though there's all these challenges stacked against you of finance and working a lot, trying to have a social life,
00:26:05
Speaker
That feeling of, okay, this is what I worked so hard to get to is what keeps you going, at least in those first few years when you're really having to push. Because I do think that the longer you are in a company, your priorities start to shake out and fall into into place and into line.
00:26:21
Speaker
Then you find new inspiration that keeps you going. But those first few years, that inspiration of... ah going, oh my gosh, so many other people would love to be here and understanding, you know, again, how lucky you are, but then I don't know how much of it's luck. It's hard work. You know, how lucky you are that your hard work paid off, I guess, but.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah.
Balancing Roles in Dance
00:26:40
Speaker
Well, you've always been a very busy person, like, You're such a multi-talented artist. So i know during your time dancing professionally, you were also pursuing freelance choreography, teaching, became director of Giordano too. Can you give any advice on how you balance all these different roles?
00:26:57
Speaker
I know you spoke of it kind of like in those beginning years of that just almost passion and excitement and drive, but how do you do it for a long period of time? Yeah. I mean, i think part of it is, you know, you really need to believe in what you're doing.
00:27:13
Speaker
You cannot take a job or be in a space that you do not believe in either the mission of the company or the work that you're dancing. And sure, there's always going to be a piece or two here and there that we don't love dancing, but like there needs to be that belief and that desire to elevate the place you're working for just as much as yourself. Because if you're in it only for yourself, especially in nonprofit dance, the success is not as as great and it's not as rewarding either because
00:27:44
Speaker
Really, we're all part of a bigger picture. And I think that's what sustained me for so long with Giordano is I truly believed in the organization and still do very much so, you know, and believe in what the company was doing. I believe in the, I was seeing in front of my eyes, kind of the evolution of jazz dance, which I thought was pretty cool. And also the preservation of of a technique and of a history, because if you don't know where you've come from, it's really hard to know where you're going. We don't always do this in this country. We should be learning from from our mistakes as we move forward. You can cut that out if you need to.
00:28:21
Speaker
ah thought shot But there was so much of that there. It was this whole package that I truly believed in. And that's why i think that's Truly what helped me and has helped me sustain and maintain for so long is that I believed in the organization. So that's what kept me dancing. I loved the rep that we were bringing in and especially when i while I was dancing, you know, I got to work with some really awesome choreographers and up until my, one of the very last people I got to work with was Peter Chu, who I like changed my dancing, even in the last year of dancing professionally.
00:28:53
Speaker
i feel like I've taken so much of what I learned from my short time with him into my my professional life post-dance. You know, as a leader, I think something that has kept me going is while I was at Giordano, specifically, it was helping to shape Giordano 2. You know, I was really supported by Nan and our executive director, Michael, to bring, they had a show called Giordano on Giordano. And getting that back to where it had been and and even elevating it further. But providing opportunities for these young, early career professionals to get on stage, to dance, being a part of helping change dance policy is not the right word, but you know helping dancers get paid more or having a better quality of life. So I got to be a part of a lot of those things at Giordano, which i mean it is truly what helped me, I think, then
00:29:45
Speaker
evolve into the role I'm at now at Dance Kaleidoscope is now I'm in that position just in a bigger a bigger scope of not only directing our path artistically, but our reputation as a company and how we support artists and support dancers, whether it be from ah pay equity redo. we We just redid our pay equity scale last year. and we're able to offer health insurance and we give paid Christmas vacation.
00:30:12
Speaker
Like little things that add a huge quality of life and seeing the difference that makes in dancers' lives is really inspiring. And then I think choreographically, i mean, it's just like we said from the very beginning, it's getting those stories out of my body that maybe I would never be able to fully execute. And I'm only one person. So you get 10 people in a room. Okay, now I can really make something.
00:30:34
Speaker
So being able to do that and having kind of carte blanche, you know a lot of times when I go into companies, and I used to really love this, actually, when a company would say, okay, I needed this, or I needed that, you know, and they would give me a parameter, because, you know, at that point, they are buying a product from you. And so you want to make sure that you're selling them the product.
00:30:53
Speaker
that they really want. So I liked that in a lot of ways, but then now being the director and, you know, when I program myself to make a new piece, I can make whatever I want, which is both daunting because I think when you do have carte blanche, it's a lot easier to fail.
00:31:07
Speaker
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00:31:23
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:31:47
Speaker
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00:32:03
Speaker
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Becoming Artistic Director
00:32:11
Speaker
Let's shift into the dance Kalaya soap era. I know that you are one of only a handful of directors who have been in this role and the huge legacy of the company. Can you talk about the process of coming into your position?
00:32:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So we are, yeah, we're 53 years old and the company started as a school program, then quickly evolved into a repertory company and Cherry Jaffe and Ginger Hall, who are still very involved in the organization, they really created the reputation of it being this great repertory company. You know, they were bringing in Ohad, they were bringing in Lynn Taylor Corbett, they were bringing in Danny Ezra Lowe.
00:32:52
Speaker
So they really had vision for these up and coming choreographers in, you know, specifically the 80s and early 90s, before they had the names for themselves. And then my direct predecessor, David Ho Choi, came from Martha Graham and created 32 years of just dynamic works here and really helped to... Cherry and Ginger, I think, had really established the organization and David made sure it wasn't going anywhere.
00:33:16
Speaker
So I really am truly lucky to walk into an organization where they were just looking for their next leader to take them into the next half century. It wasn't like, and I've said this many times to people, it wasn't like when companies like hire a new CEO because, oh no, the ship is sinking and bring it back. it was truly ah just such a great scenario that I got to come into.
00:33:37
Speaker
But yes, how was it getting here? Because let me tell you, nobody tells you like, how do you apply for an artistic director position? And yeah how do they measure that? And what is that like? You know, before you and I got on, before we started recording, we were talking about Autumn briefly, Autumn Ekman.
00:33:52
Speaker
December of 2022, was sitting on her couch in Atlanta because that's where she's at now and my family's there. And she's like, oh, did you see that the dance kaleidoscope position was posted?
00:34:06
Speaker
And I said, no, actually, i I didn't. And, you know, I knew about it. i had come to Dance Kaleidoscope in 2021 as a repetitor for Brock Klassen and staged his work Sneaky Pete.
00:34:17
Speaker
That was really my first introduction into the company. And i saw the... incredible talent of the dancers, the new facilities they'd only been in for a year, and just the warm community. And that's even talking like we were on the tail end of COVID at that time.
00:34:32
Speaker
And I could tell that this company was so loved and supported in the community. But again, we were all coming out of COVID and I wasn't planning on leaving Chicago. I wasn't planning on looking for another job, but sitting on this couch it with Autumn and her telling me it was posted. I said, send it along. And there was just something inside of me that was kind of um knocking, kept knocking like, If you don't try for this now, this opportunity may not come up again for a while.
00:34:59
Speaker
Because as we ah know, there are very few dance companies in general. but So that means that these positions are infrequent and people stay for a long time. So I i decided, i think I looked at the application for two weeks.
00:35:13
Speaker
I mean, i just, I was stressed. I didn't know what to do. You know, i here I was in my 14th year with Giordano and this place that I had called home and I just had a lot of mixed emotions.
00:35:24
Speaker
But once I hit submit on the application, I knew that should I get it, i was ready to make a change. Like I knew that it was the time. Like I just knew that everything I had done so far, all the things I had learned had led me to this point.
00:35:39
Speaker
And, you know, should the position present itself to me that it was the right time. So that was in January that I applied. There was a Zoom interview with the search firm that they hired.
00:35:53
Speaker
Then there was a Zoom interview with the entire search committee, which was about, i want to say it was about 12 to 18 people. And then from there, it was like, I heard nothing for like a month.
00:36:06
Speaker
And i was like, oh my gosh, am I getting it? Am I not getting it? I remember we were flying to new York just for a weekend to visit. And I landed and I had this email that was like, we would like to invite you to an in-person an in-person interview.
00:36:20
Speaker
So I jumped on it got my date, drove down here. I think I was their first one or maybe their second one. There were five of us that were finalists. It was a 12 hour day. i met with David, who thankfully I knew already, David Ho Choi at nine. And then I taught company class at 10.
00:36:36
Speaker
And then the company got to interview me afterwards and ask questions. And then I met with the production manager and then I went to lunch with the executive director and then came back and met with the rest of the administration team. And then the search committee came in the afternoon.
00:36:51
Speaker
i had prepared a 20 to 30 minute presentation with the prompts they had given about what I saw The plan of five years being and how I would change the company or how what things I would keep the same. i mean, there were all these questions that had been carefully crafted because they're trying to make sure the health of this organization is not only maintained, but...
00:37:11
Speaker
you know, if nothing else, it's getting better and better. And then after that was over, I went to dinner with many of the committees. So it was a full day, but because I was the second one, i had to wait for the other three.
00:37:24
Speaker
We were all working professionals. So, and while I don't really know who those other people are, I i imagine they were having to work around their schedules and say, okay, I can't come for two more weeks or I can't get there for three weeks. And Anyway, I'm saying all that to say it was not until May, the end of May, that I got a phone call one afternoon offering me the job.
00:37:43
Speaker
So it was a four-month interview process. And, you know, of course, I would just immediately said, you know, yes, and i will make this work. So two months later, I moved in July, and the rest is history.
00:37:56
Speaker
Wow. What's your philosophy as a director? What kind of environment are you trying to create for your dancers in this
Creating a Positive Dance Environment
00:38:03
Speaker
company? I try not to be, we're at the front of the room and you do what we say. I try, as I said, going back to that conversation about Wonderbound, you know, I try for the whole process to be collaborative.
00:38:15
Speaker
So if I give you respect, then I feel like I earn your respect. So there's just this kind of, two-way energy happening in the room so that it doesn't have this, you must do, I don't know, I just never want to be a dictator leader. And i definitely was part of different processes and things over, you know, my time in my career where that was really, that was it. Like, I'm telling you,
00:38:38
Speaker
this is what you're doing and you do it. You know, that there was kind of no, respect is not the right word because I don't think these people were ever being disrespectful, but there was kind of never this idea of like, how does this movement make you feel? You must just execute it.
00:38:53
Speaker
And I know sometimes even with the works that we bring back, it is very much like, well, you do have to do the step because that's that's the choreography. But I think there's a way to get to a place that's not so just sometimes it feels disrespectful to me. And so that's why that's kind of how I've tried to be as a leader is letting it be conversational in the room so that we are all working together. And dance is such a unique thing. And and the arts in general is are unique because You don't get to go in a cubicle all day, every day. You cannot work from home.
00:39:26
Speaker
Like, we not only do we have to work in the room together, but we have to touch each other and trust each other. And there's a lot that goes into that. So I think the more that I can...
00:39:40
Speaker
make it feel that I'm there to support the artists rather than to just boss them around. That is kind of where I i lead from. And sure, there's times where you have to maybe let someone know, oh, it's not the way we do that. Or that's not, you know, ah can we think about doing this a different way? But even then...
00:39:57
Speaker
I really try to be sure that I'm approaching it that way, not in the, you did this so completely wrong. I mean, I'm sure there will be a day i'm going to knock on all the wood in my office that somebody is going to do something that I'm going to say, that is wrong. You can't do it that way. But otherwise, let's talk about it. Let's talk about an approach of a way we could do this differently next time. They're not kids.
00:40:17
Speaker
These are adults. These are working adults that have worked very hard to be here. And so I'm not going to treat them like children. and I think sometimes that can also mean like, reprimanding like children. And I just don't want to do that.
00:40:29
Speaker
Did I answer your question? Yes, absolutely. And I feel like as someone who has had the honor of working with you, you definitely bring that energy to the room. And so like you're saying, even if this is the step, you have a great way of being able to maybe give a correction for that person. That will make it feel better in their body.
00:40:47
Speaker
For sure. You know, cause it's like, yeah, this is the choreography. is the steps, but how will it, how can I look at you as an individual person? and give you a note that will make it work for you so that we can all be on the same page.
00:41:00
Speaker
Well, I mean, and sometimes, like, let's say we're back in MCB Studios, and, like, if you were right next to Elise, you and Elise are going to be doing it different ways because you have different proportions. You have different where you drop your weight is coming from a different place or whatever. So how can I articulate to both of you in a way that will make the step be the same, but it's going to be a different approach, you know? And I think that's what we have to remember is, like,
00:41:23
Speaker
in the end we are working with x amount of different people in the room and they are different they are so different and i think that there is a way to celebrate that rather than you know i think sometimes we can make dancers feel like well you need to change and evolve to fit into a ah mold rather than celebrate and you know karen she was always so good with you guys she actually loved making you guys different she was very tyra banks sometimes you know Like, I think you should cut your hair. or You should do this. You know, it was never something where she was trying to make.
00:41:54
Speaker
And this is for me from the outside that she was trying to make people conform. But if anything, she was trying to celebrate people's differences. And that's what made you guys so edgy. who Absolutely. yeah She has a great way of she has some great vision. Yes.
00:42:08
Speaker
She could see something in you that you couldn't always see in yourself yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've learned a lot from her too. Yeah. When you're holding auditions for the company or you're looking for dancers, what is drawing you
Qualities of Ideal Dancers
00:42:20
Speaker
to a dancer? What are you looking for?
00:42:22
Speaker
oh You know, it depends. It depends on... I think sometimes you go into auditions thinking you're looking for one thing. And a lot of times you find something you didn't know you needed.
00:42:36
Speaker
So I don't know that i really know what I'm looking for until I find it, if that makes sense. like Because I think it's also really unrealistic for me to go... Okay, we have this dancer leaving this year, i need to find their exact replacement. Like, am I going to find this person that checks these boxes that are things we feel like we're going to miss from this person.
00:42:59
Speaker
And I think if I were to do that, it would make my life miserable because I may never find. I mean, again, going back to what we were just saying about being individual, that's kind of the beautiful thing. Us having our own space gives me this unique position that others that have to rent space for auditions don't have.
00:43:18
Speaker
And what I mean by that is, we're already paying rent in this building, so I don't have to pay to rent my space. So I've been doing a two-day audition and we have been pre-screening.
00:43:29
Speaker
you know We'll pre-screen people's videos and then we only invite people we're interested in in based off of those videos. So... For instance, this year, I think we invited 30 people and ultimately 22 were able to come.
00:43:41
Speaker
And that's plenty. You know, we already had gotten down to these 22 people and now I get to spend two days with them and no one gets cut. Everyone gets the same two day experience because ultimately we're going to spend more time together in the studio than we are on stage. So I need to know.
00:43:58
Speaker
how you work. I need to see, are you coachable? And you need to see if you like me too. Like, what if you don't like us? Which I hope isn't the case for anybody, but you never know. Like personalities don't always mesh and and get along. And so that's been really wonderful because we've actually been able to see even some of the dancers who are in the company now. Part of what won us over about them last year was that in day two of their audition, something like clicked. And it was almost like, okay, so if we got you from here to here in two days,
00:44:27
Speaker
Wow, what can we what can we see from there? I kind of answered your question without meaning to answer it. We are looking for you know people who are coachable. you know I'm also looking for people who can speak. like I know that sounds crazy because I'm hiring dancers, but be able to hold a conversation with me, be able to hold a conversation with a donor, a supporter.
00:44:47
Speaker
You know, our dancers are our best ambassadors in the community and with patrons and and donors. So it's really important to me that they be able to hold those conversations and feel comfortable, you know, being themselves in those scenarios.
00:45:01
Speaker
But the other thing I think I i always know... when I am going to really like a dancer is when I always know where they're at in the room, no matter what they're doing, if they're doing the step correctly, if they're doing the step incorrectly, but you always know where they are because they're actually dancing.
00:45:18
Speaker
You know, i don't even want to call it performing. They're just dancing. There's a, there's a sense of natural performance coming through them as they're executing the choreography as they're learning you know they're taking up space i think it's really easy to go to an audition specifically when you're first learning stuff or you know in that kind of you're in the process to shrink back and i think that's some people's processes is to step into the back of the room me learn it from the back and and you can do that but make sure i see you back there you know because you might get lost in the shuffle
00:45:52
Speaker
Now, some people are really good, again, like I said, at making you known wherever they are. So I think that's the biggest thing is when you're at an audition, just being 100% confident, even when you're not 100% confident. Because I don't think anyone ever is.
00:46:07
Speaker
How could you be? you know you get 45 minutes max maybe to learn one phrase and execute it perfectly as I air quote. I don't know if anybody's going to see this, but actually see me, see me. So I was doing air quotes for perfectly. that's not That's not a realistic expectation. Yeah. What's your long-term vision for Dance Kaleidoscope?
Vision for Dance Kaleidoscope's Future
00:46:28
Speaker
So many things I feel. the big kind of all-encompassing one is i really want to be a place that people are looking to to say, what are they doing?
00:46:40
Speaker
You know, I want to get to a place where we working. bringing in either up and coming or or freshly emerging choreographers. I want to be a place that's also able to bring in some of those classic masterworks that might never get seen here. I mean, that was one of the coolest things that I used to love about all the dance I could see in Chicago was that sometimes...
00:47:04
Speaker
you were seeing works that even if it wasn't your cup of tea, you're going, oh my God, I would have never gotten to see this X piece by an X choreographer if I had not been in this theater.
00:47:14
Speaker
And I think that while our Indianapolis and Indiana arts community are thriving and they truly are, a place where we could be better is bringing in some of those specifically on the dance side, some of those dances that people have never and will never get to see if we are not spearheading that. And our ballet does ah something similar, you know, bringing in different Balanchine works and things like that, because we just don't have a lot of dance that tours through here.
00:47:41
Speaker
So then why why not bring it to them, you know, ourselves? So that's part of it. I just really want to be known to as a great place to work and to dance. I think it's easy for young dancers specifically to get an idea in their head that dancing for ah huge company is the end all be all, where there's all these regional companies that have tons of, sometimes even more performing opportunities than you would in a bigger company. But There's all these performance opportunities. You can get paid. You can have a life. You can lead a life. I just think that, again, young dancers just don't get it. They don't always also get like the money and the financial planning thing for the future.
00:48:23
Speaker
Not that I even still have that figured out, but you know I want that to be our reputation. I want people to go, okay, I know I can go. to Indianapolis and dance at Dance Kaleidoscope and be artistically fulfilled.
00:48:35
Speaker
I know that I'm going to be part of pushing boundaries. so we're not just getting kind of complacent and doing the same old thing, but also I can go there and make a living and have a life with great leadership and great coworkers, because again, we're spending more time in the studio every day than we are on stage. So enjoying that part of your work environment is I think super important.
00:48:58
Speaker
What's your dream piece to bring to Indianapolis? Oh, I don't know. So we've got two coming in next year that I can't quite say yet because we haven't announced the season. And one I have a contract for so I can maybe tease it, but I'm i'm not going to. I'll wait till you know season. But the other I'm still working on. But I was in Chicago, lucky enough to be in Chicago, while Alejandro Ceruto was the resident choreographer at Hubbard Street and saw a lot of his works.
00:49:27
Speaker
And there are a couple that are just so They're all dynamic and wonderful, but they just have also these really beautiful theatrical elements to them that I know would land so well with our audiences here. Well, one is the very first piece I ever saw at Hubbard Street do, and I was actually still living in Arizona. They were on tour and it's called Extremely Close.
00:49:47
Speaker
And you walk in and the curtain is up and there are feathers falling through the entire seating of the audience. So for the first half hour, and then the piece starts and these walls move and there's all this stuff happens in the feathers and I'm do not even doing it justice, but it's beautiful.
00:50:04
Speaker
So, mean, for, I think my own nostalgic reasons, that would be a piece I would love to, because it was one that I remember watching and going, oh my God, there's even more possibilities in dance than I thought.
00:50:15
Speaker
I mean, that's what I love about going and seeing, other choreographers and other dances. Like it is, it's just feathers on the stage, but I had never seen it, you know, and must've been 20, 20 or 21 when I saw it. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, like, again, more possibility, more thing, you know, almost like couldn't compute it in a way because it was this cool, beautiful thing that I had never seen or ever thought of.
00:50:38
Speaker
So I think that would be something I'd like to bring, but that caught me off guard.
Planning for Life Beyond Dance
00:50:42
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. ah I know I threw that one at you. I'm sure there are others. yeah Okay, last question.
00:50:50
Speaker
What advice would you give to aspiring dancers who are pursuing their professional dance career? Don't give up. Ask questions. If the answer does not come back as one you like you want,
00:51:02
Speaker
or like, it's like when the choreographer goes and watches the piece from the back of the room or the side of the room, how can you look at it from a different angle? How can you go at it from a different way? Because maybe you're so inside of it or it's so right in front of you that you can only see this one way that you've been doing it.
00:51:20
Speaker
And you can't understand why what you're doing isn't getting you past this barrier. So go around to the side of it or to the back of that of that issue or that problem, or not that it's even a problem. Maybe it's a job you want with a company. And sometimes it's as much as stepping back and looking at the other artists and going, again, not conforming, but going, maybe there's something in...
00:51:41
Speaker
all of them that I can inspire to help inspire me in my movement or there's just so many different reasons and things that will be reasons you get no's right like you could get no's simply depending on the job because if you don't fit the costume I hope that doesn't happen as much as it used to but it used to be a big thing like you got to fit the costume but again looking just looking at those things and going how can I approach this differently before giving up and also The other thing that I really love for dancers to know and to think about is what else do you bring to an organization? Because you can be more than just a dancer.
00:52:20
Speaker
I think it used to get looked at as a, well, you have a backup plan. Like then that means you have room to fail. And it's like, no, i don't have a backup plan. I'm a dancer and I do this. So I have both of these things because you can't dance forever.
00:52:33
Speaker
And organizations like ours, we would much prefer you know someone who knows the organization and knows the history and has all of that organizational knowledge.
00:52:44
Speaker
That's a lot easier than to bring someone in who has got the same set of skills but doesn't know any of those things. I encourage dancers too as they're approaching their careers and looking at companies is if you have...
00:52:56
Speaker
grant writing knowledge, or if you have some sort of organizational skill or tool that you think could be useful, go talk to the leadership, plant that seed. and It may not be that they have something for you now, but right now you do just want to dance.
00:53:10
Speaker
But in 10 years, you know, when you're maybe ready to take a step back, maybe they've, there's an opportunity for you. So encouraging, I think people to, again, look at problems from all sides, but also Don't wait to think about your long game.
00:53:24
Speaker
I don't know that I was always thinking about it directly, but I was always a little bit ahead of what I was going to do next. So, you know, even when I was ready to retire from the stage, I already had lined up my position as operations manager at Giordano.
00:53:38
Speaker
But again, that was something that was planted years and years prior. I just hate when I, dancers are like, I'm going to be done dancing. What going don't know. And that's okay if you don't know, but you know, doesn't hurt to plan a little bit too.
00:53:50
Speaker
Yeah. So love that. That was a long winded answer. That was amazing. And I very much agree with all of that for sure. And I think I'm sure having all that experience also sets you up to be in the right place at the right time when it came time for this current position, like having operations experience and having choreography experience and having been an educator and having been the leader of Geodontology, like all of these things come into play to say, okay, this is the person and we need for this artistic director role and like you said you weren't planning that necessarily this whole time but you set yourself up to have that all in your back pocket when the opportunity for presented itself
00:54:32
Speaker
Absolutely.
Preparation for Leadership Role
00:54:33
Speaker
i remember again in the interview process thinking like, oh, wow, like it's scary because you're doing this, you're interviewing for this huge life change, but none of the actual parts were scary because actually I actually was prepared for them. I had the knowledge and I'd been in a lot of the situations and We're a very similar organization to Giordano in the way, in our budget size and our staff size and the way that I work with our executive director. I mean, I learned from, you know, again, Nan and Michael, who Michael is now retired, but they were such a good pair to learn from a co-leadership team, how artistic and executive can work together. and
00:55:07
Speaker
Yeah, you're exactly right. Like you said, I wasn't planning it, but all of it had led me to that right place. So. Joshua, this was awesome.
Where to Learn More
00:55:15
Speaker
If anyone listening would like to learn more about you or about Dance Kaleidoscope, where can they find you?
00:55:21
Speaker
um You can find me on Instagram at JBC Choreography. You can go to our website, www.dancecal.org.
00:55:31
Speaker
And then our Instagram handle is at dance underscore kaleidoscope underscore indie. And yes, you will probably have spell check yourself on kaleidoscope like I still do every time.
00:55:43
Speaker
Amazing. It's a tricky word. Yeah, right? Yeah. Thank you so much. This was so fun. It was great to see you. It was so great to see you. It was great to see you at our show in January. Thanks again attending. I loved it.
00:55:55
Speaker
Awesome. great
00:55:59
Speaker
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00:56:12
Speaker
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00:56:25
Speaker
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