Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
73. Under Pressure to Be Perfect with Rachael Dailey Goodwin and Ali Block
67 Plays6 hours ago
In this week’s insightful episode, I am joined by Ali Block and Rachael Dailey Goodwin. Ali is a former professional ballerina. She studied psychology at Columbia University and currently works as a Clinical Research Coordinator and Lab Manager at Icahn School of Medicine. Rachael is a former dancer and is currently Assistant Professor of Management at Syracuse University Whitman School of Management.
Together with Lyndon Garrett, they recently published an incredible research paper titled: Under Pressure to Be Perfect: How Dehumanizing and Rehumanizing Social Cues Lead to Maladaptive and Adaptive Perfectionism in Professional Ballet.
In this episode, we dive deep into how environment and culture shape our perfectionist tendencies and explore the role we all play in thriving in our pursuit of excellence.
Key Points in this Episode:
- What first drew them to study perfectionism in the world of professional ballet
- How high-pressure environments (such as ballet) often employ excessively high standards that may evoke harmful experiences of perfectionism
- The difference between maladaptive and adaptive perfectionism, and why perfectionism in general is not always harmful
- The role environmental cues play to support dancers in shifting from maladaptive to adaptive perfectionism
- The specific forms of dehumanizing and rehumanizing social cues
- How artistic leaders can become more aware of some of the ways they are subtly fueling dancers’ perfectionistic tendencies
Connect with Ali:
WEBSITE: http://alipaigeblock.com/
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/ali_p_block
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ali-paige-block-b8798a112/
Connect with Rachael:
WEBSITE: https://www.rachaeldaileygoodwin.com/
FACULTY: https://whitman.syracuse.edu/faculty-and-research/faculty-staff-directory/details/rdgoodwi
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachaeldaileygoodwin/
Links and Resources:
Get 10% off registration for Étoile Dance Competition with code BRAINY10.
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
1-1 CAREER MENTORING: book your complimentary career call
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
Recommended
Transcript
Understanding Perfectionism in Dance
00:00:00
Speaker
rather than labeling yourself as somebody who's just a perfectionist. I think some people wear it as a badge of honor. Like I'm a perfectionist. Some people use it as a negative thing, like, oh, I struggle with perfectionism. But rather than using it as a badge or an identifier, like this is a process that you're working on every day.
00:00:16
Speaker
but And I think at the root of it is it comes from caring deeply about something. You care deeply about your craft. You care deeply about your students. You care deeply about the work that you're doing in whatever context you're in. And it's like, it is a process daily of managing your deep care for this thing with the fact that you're a human and that you will make mistakes and that you will grow from those mistakes. And that some days you will be overly hard on yourself and you won't be the best version of yourself.
00:00:39
Speaker
And other days you'll manage it better.
Introducing Kaitlyn and the Podcast
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm Kaitlyn, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast.
Guests: Allie Block and Rachel Daly Goodwin
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm your host, Kaitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Allie Block and Rachel Daly Goodwin. Allie is a professional ballerina who also studied psychology at Columbia University and currently works as a clinical research coordinator and lab manager at Icahn School of Medicine.
00:01:37
Speaker
Rachel is a former dancer and is currently assistant professor of management at Syracuse University Whitman School of Management. Together with Lyndon Garrett, they recently published an incredible research paper titled Under Pressure to be Perfect, How Dehumanizing and Rehumanizing Social Cues Lead to Maladaptive and Adaptive Perfectionism in Professional Ballet.
00:01:59
Speaker
which sounds overwhelming, but we're going to break it all down. And I'm really excited to chat today. But first, I would love to hear from you. What first drew you to study perfectionism in the world of professional ballet?
00:02:11
Speaker
First, thank you so much for having us. We're so delighted to be here. i think for me, I had an interest in exploring this field because I danced a lot when I was younger. I danced professionally for a little while and i had seen you know a lot of what dancers went through and I wanted to understand it better. So that was probably what first drew me to the study of perfectionism. Although we didn't first start studying perfectionism, right? I was drawn to the world of ballet. I wanted to keep my identity as a ballet dancer because for those of you have tried to transition out of the world of ballet into another field, you know how hard that can be, right? So...
00:02:48
Speaker
I was trying to maintain my identity as a ballet dancer for a long time, kind of after I left the field by choreographing here and there or like some freelance gigs. You know, when I pursued research, when I pursued this identity as a professor, which demanded a lot of time, i wanted to kind of maintain that identity by interviewing ballet dancers and learning more about doing.
00:03:08
Speaker
what we could learn as management scholars from the world of professional ballet. And we were first interested in this idea of DEI initiatives and how DEI initiatives were evolving and influencing such a you know homogenous world.
Impact of High-Pressure Environments on Perfectionism
00:03:23
Speaker
And that's where we saw over and over again dancers were not really wanting to talk about that but wanted to talk more about the pressure that they were under to be perfect all the time and so perfectionism kind of evolved as a topic throughout the interviews it didn't really start as one that we were interested in when we thought oh let's go interview professional ballet dancers Okay, so often the burden to work on the perfectionist tendencies is really placed on the individual dancer. And while it is a worthy endeavor to strive for greatness, we also know that these high pressure environments such as valet,
00:03:56
Speaker
can often employ excessively high standards that may evoke harmful experiences of perfectionism. Can you elaborate on this statement and what we are seeing in many of these high-pressure environments?
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, so I think this is actually something we were really interested in once we saw that perfectionism was a theme in our interviews and that there were lots of dancers that were talking about how they felt pressure not only to be perfect In the rehearsal space or in a class environment, they also felt pressure to be perfect in other areas of their lives, what they were eating or what they were wearing or how they were presenting themselves, even their posture throughout all times of the day, right?
00:04:35
Speaker
So I think the burden to work on perfectionistic tendencies can trickle throughout our lives in lots of different areas. And in this project, we try to differentiate between perfectionism as a trait and perfectionism as a ah state.
00:04:52
Speaker
So we were more interested in capturing how perfectionism or different types of perfectionism might fluctuate based on the cues that are in the environment or in these high pressure environments and how these, you know, excessively high standards can sometimes be intertwined with environmental cues that aren't necessarily healthy.
00:05:10
Speaker
And I think that's often the case, not just in ballet, but in a lot of different industries that are kind of high pressure to perform competitive or elite industries, or, you know, these fields that attract kind of elite or prestigious talent.
00:05:25
Speaker
hu And it is always kind of the chicken or the egg situation. Like, do you become a perfectionist because you're a dancer or are you attracted to dance because you have those tendencies? In our paper, we're not saying that, you know, there wasn't a self-selected sample of perfectionists that we were interviewing. I don't deny that, right? I mean, I think dancers, you know, many of the dancers we interviewed do have the trait of perfectionism.
00:05:48
Speaker
But, you know, it's kind of like the the improv game. Yes. And right. We were saying yes. And the environment and the cues in the environment can also take that trait of perfectionism and turn it for the better or for the worse.
00:06:03
Speaker
Can you talk about there are different kinds of perfectionism? It's not a uniformly harmful experience. So what is the risk between maladaptive and adaptive perfectionism?
00:06:14
Speaker
Sure. So first of all, before I dive in, thank you again so much for having us on the pod. And Caitlin, it's great to be back on the pod for a second time. Caitlin and I were talking about this before, and we realized that the last interview was almost a year ago. And that just time is just a strange concept. It doesn't feel like it a year ago. But yes, so there are two types of perfectionism that have been identified in the more clinical psychology literature over the years. So maladaptive perfectionism tends to be driven by a set of perfectionistic concerns.
00:06:43
Speaker
So, for example, things like intense self-criticism, an obsessive fear of making mistakes, sort of anchoring one's self-worth in your accomplishments rather than who you are as a person. and On the opposite side of the spectrum, there's adaptive perfectionism that can sometimes be characterized more as a pursuit of excellence or as a set of perfectionistic strivings.
00:07:03
Speaker
So adaptive perfectionism still involves a focus on the achievement of high standards, but it's rooted in more of a growth mindset and it's characterized less by unhealthy behaviors and by fewer negative self thoughts as opposed to maladaptive perfectionism.
00:07:18
Speaker
OK, so in a ballet setting, What types of environments that are set up are likely to trigger these different types of perfectionism?
Dehumanizing Scenarios in Ballet
00:07:29
Speaker
Sure. So in our paper, we looked a lot into the dehumanization literature, and there are four major types of situations that are likely to cue maladaptive perfectionistic behaviors.
00:07:40
Speaker
These four types of situations... Three of them are derived from the literature on dehumanization. And then the fourth is actually a dimension that we found in our research. So I'll tell you the four and then I'll give you an example of each of them. So the three forms of dehumanization that were already in existence in the literature on dehumanization in the workspace are denial of agency, which I'll talk more about in a minute, denial of individuality in denial of subjectivity. And then we contributed the the fourth, which is denial of fallibility.
00:08:11
Speaker
So I'll take you through each one and tell you what it means and what an example would be in the workspace. So denial of an agency, this is a situation involves having your voice or your opinions or your needs shut down.
00:08:23
Speaker
So an example in a ballet company would be when you express your opinion or you try to clarify a step in a rehearsal and the ballet master shuts you down and claims that they're running the rehearsal, your feedback is not welcome, they're the boss.
00:08:35
Speaker
I think many of us have experienced something to that effect. That's an example of denial of agency. Another example would be the denial of individuality. So this would involve situations where you're forced to conform and eschew your authentic needs or values.
00:08:50
Speaker
Some examples might be feeling the need to conform to a particular aesthetic to match the corps ballet. or feeling that you need to eat a certain way, dress a certain way, or even behave a certain way, for example, as the prototypical demure ballerina at the expense of your own health, comfort, or authentic values.
00:09:07
Speaker
So that would be an example of denial of individuality. ah third example is the denial of subjectivity. So this form of dehumanization involves a disregard for your emotional or physical pain.
00:09:19
Speaker
So some examples might be The expectation that you push through an injury or a tough emotional day, otherwise your colleagues and your boss will accuse you of being weak or not tough enough. I think that's something we've all experienced in our ballet training, performance careers.
00:09:33
Speaker
And I think often what we'll see in ballet companies where organizational dehumanization is prominent is that mental toughness is emphasized at the expense of health and wellness and regular human feelings of emotion or physical pain. And then the fourth dimension that we found through our research is what we call the denial of fallibility.
00:09:52
Speaker
The denial of fallibility basically involves a disregard for the fact that dancers are human beings first, and therefore we make mistakes and we learn from those mistakes. So some examples where we might feel that in the workspace are situations that do not allow for any kind of human flaw, that overemphasize very small mistakes or factors out of our control, such as imperfect feet or things that we can't control. And it kind of just generally involves fostering a mindset in dancers that even the smallest mistake or imperfection makes us not enough or just not good enough.
00:10:22
Speaker
So those are four examples of how environments can trigger maladaptive perfectionism. I love all those examples that Ali just gave. I think it's just important to remind other dancers that it's not just when you're denied agency or denied individuality or denied fallibility that triggers maladaptive perfectionism, right? It's the combination of being in this really pressure to perform environment and those other dehumanizing cues. which It's when you put them together. It's a combination of variables that come together too
00:10:54
Speaker
create the perfect storm for maladaptive perfectionists. Okay, so can you talk on the flip side because this high pressure environment that we're in isn't going away,
Encouraging Adaptive Perfectionism
00:11:05
Speaker
right? We're going to keep working on this very intense art form that is a high standard of excellence, but how can a workspace or a leader work to make an environment that is going to trigger adaptive perfectionism?
00:11:18
Speaker
Great question. Important question. Ultimately, organizational dehumanization, it's comprised of social cues. So these are cues that come from leaders. It can be artistic directors, ballet masters. It could be more senior dancers. It could even be other dancers at one's own rank in the company.
00:11:34
Speaker
But these social cues are things that signal to dancers that they, for example, cannot use their voice must conform to the aesthetic, cannot make a mistake ever, cannot acknowledge or you know take time to acknowledge and care for their physical or emotional pain.
00:11:49
Speaker
So these are the kinds of social cues that prompt the unhealthy kind of perfectionism in dancers. However, when leaders or more commonly what we found in our research was that other dancers in the company, more senior dancers in the company who mentor younger dancers, give reaffirming cues of humanity. For example,
00:12:07
Speaker
Gently calling out a fellow dancer on the fact that, you know, you look great. Why are you still obsessing over this step? We're like, you had a great performance. And yes, you made one tiny mistake that you're obsessing over, but the rest of your performance was moving and and beautiful. And that mistake is something that was barely noticeable to others. It can be friendships or romantic partnerships in companies where people...
00:12:30
Speaker
kind of call each other out in gentle, loving ways on the fact that you're being too harsh on yourself. We saw examples in the research of people in book groups or religious groups who would lift each other up through whether it was prayer or it was you know finding common interests outside of the ballet company.
00:12:48
Speaker
Ultimately, anything that's accused dancers to kind of go to a place of self-compassion. We found that self-compassion is a huge healing mechanism and something that can really help dancers shift to more adaptive, healthy place of perfectionism. I don't know, Rachel, if you want to add to that.
00:13:03
Speaker
No, I think that's great. I mean, I think we've kind of now shifted to, you know, the specific forms of dehumanizing or rehumanizing social cues. And we definitely saw that these examples of, you know, denying agency or feeling like your agency was denied or denying individuality or feeling like you couldn't express yourself authentically or feeling like you had to be a cookie cutter core member.
00:13:23
Speaker
On the flip side, dancers who had other dancers or friends, even people outside of the company who empowered them and who valued them. for much more than just a dancer, right? A machine that could do some something over and over and over again that was fantastic with their body, right? Like dancers need to understand that there's so much more than that, that their worth and their value is so much more than sometimes the way that they're treated in a dance environment. The flip side of denial of individuality, right, right, is reaffirming that individuality. The flip side of denying somebody's subjectivity or making them feel like they can't express their emotions or, you know, they have to be a robot at work
00:13:59
Speaker
Right, is validating their emotions and validating their whole person. The flip side of denying them fallibility is allowing them to make mistakes in a safe space and providing them opportunities to learn and grow from mistakes.
00:14:12
Speaker
Rather than denying them agency, let them have some sort of say in their schedule i mean obviously leaders can't give complete flexibility to everybody when it comes to you know their schedule or all of the details related to their work but research suggests that if you give them some control right if they feel powerless they're more likely to spiral into these maladaptive tendencies of unhealthy perfectionism in these high pressure to perform environments but if they feel like they have some control They're much more likely to continue to keep the bar high, perform high without going into these negative spirals that, frankly, are costly for the organization, right? Because eventually dancers break down. People, not just dancers, right?
00:14:52
Speaker
People working in high-pressure reform environments break down when they feel dehumanized, over and over again in these high pressure to perform environments where the standards are so high. To prevent those breakdowns, if you can create an environment with some of these rehumanizing cues being reinforced consistently, then it's getting better for the bottom line of the company as well, right? You can see less turnover, you see less mental health issues, and dancers going more committed and happier and their workplaces.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think there is that fear in a lot of ballet environments that if you do treat dancers in this way, that they won't perform. It's like we have to break them down in order to get the best work out of them. But we're seeing the research and we're hearing...
00:15:36
Speaker
I feel like more and more and we know, I mean, I know personally from my experience, like I'm in an environment where I have some agency or i'm being humanized, like I'm, I'm working better. I'm doing better. I mean, I remember even just having a ballet mistress who would say like, when she noticed we're all struggling, take your pointe shoes off. You know, we're running Swan Lake for the fourth time today.
00:15:55
Speaker
Take your pointe shoes off. You don't need them. We're working on the port-a-bra, like things like that, where, there's that mentality that like, no, you should wear your pointe shoes for eight hours a day every single day because that's what we did and why not? And it's like, of course, you have to wear your pointe shoes quite a bit as a professional dancer, but it's like, are there moments where we could say something like that that just goes such a long way and like all of a sudden you see the whole company just reinvigorate and like, okay, they see us.
00:16:20
Speaker
They see our struggle.
Supportive Environments and Perfectionism
00:16:22
Speaker
They know that one hour of rehearsal at the end of the day is not going to ruin our technique or ruin the show if we take our shoes off. Yeah. true Well, and it's not all bad, right? Like our interviews weren't all stories of dancers who were completely miserable. No, like we had both, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to create the model that we created. and I do think we are seeing a lot of progress.
00:16:44
Speaker
I was very encouraged by a lot of the things that these dancers said. Of course, I was disheartened also by some of the things that these dancers Dancers shared. So the the dancers that were in, you know, more dehumanizing and toxic ballet environments, right? Their stories were heartbreaking and often led to breakdowns. But then the dancers that were in kind of more rehumanizing environments, their stories were very encouraging. And so it was interesting for us to create a model that could learn from both spaces and to show how even dancers in healthy environments, but who used to be in an unhealthy environment, they might be more susceptible to triggers in their environment.
00:17:20
Speaker
and go back and forth between kind of these, you know, maladaptive and adaptive forms of perfectionism, even within the same day, which is something that we found to be interesting. And so it really does take supportive coworkers or supportive dancers and people outside of the world of ballet to support you and to give you that structure of an encouragement to rehumanize when you're in this environment that's so easily dehumanizing.
00:17:46
Speaker
Dance competition season is upon us, and if you're looking for a competition that's about artistry, performance, and growth, not just the trophy, then you need to check out Etoile Dance Competition.
00:17:59
Speaker
Etoile is a concert dance competition open to everyone, including beginners, pre-professionals, and adults, with inclusive leveling that makes it possible for anyone to score in the top overalls.
00:18:10
Speaker
and every dancer gets more than just a score. Etoile provides audio and video critiques in performance, technique, choreography, and overall impressions you can truly grow from your experience.
00:18:24
Speaker
Something unique to Etoile that I love is the opportunity for dance dancers to start the day off right with master classes taught by Etoile's esteemed panel of judges, all with professional dance backgrounds and teaching experience.
00:18:38
Speaker
Plus, every event includes a group contemporary performance with a chance to hone audition skills and build community with other dancers. This competition is truly something special.
00:18:50
Speaker
And right now, podcast listeners can get 10% off the registration with code BRAINY10. If you want a competition that emphasizes artistry, provides real, actionable feedback, and celebrates dancers of all levels, head to atwalcomp.com or find the link in the show notes to register today.
Leadership and Communication in Dance
00:19:12
Speaker
Can you share some of the ways that artistic leaders could become more aware of some of the ways they're really subtly fueling dancers' perfectionistic tendencies? I feel like even the best leaders, there's just some things that are so ingrained within us because of the way we were trained in the ballet culture that things come out sometimes that you don't you don't realize are actually fueling dancers in a negative way. So what are some of those things that we need to be aware of? That's a great question. And I think we've covered some of this already, but I want to make clear that we're not saying that perfectionism is a bad thing necessarily, right?
00:19:47
Speaker
We're not saying that's a good thing either. We're just saying that perfectionism has ah you know an uglier face here in environments where you know there's high performance pressure combined with dehumanizing cues. you know Some things that people in positions of power, particularly leaders, might not be as sensitive to the way that they might be denying somebody agency, right? Maybe they were taught by their leaders and it was just kind of what they observed to deny others opportunities to ask questions in class, or they were taught to shut up and listen. And so that's the approach they might take as well, right? And that's maybe something that's just passed on from one leader to the next that could, you know, again, affect the communication style becomes less healthy that way. So
00:20:35
Speaker
Giving dancers opportunities to provide feedback, giving dancers opportunities to communicate and to ask questions, feeling like they're in safe space to ask questions, to learn from their mistakes, right? Reaffirming their fallibility. If they make a mistake, sure, encourage them. Like we're not saying to drop the standards. We're saying the opposite. Keep the standards high, right?
00:20:52
Speaker
But make it a safe place to learn from your mistakes because dancers are hard enough on themselves. They know when they've messed up. And so give them opportunities, cry if they need to cry. I was heard from several dancers who are on their periods who just felt like it was harder to perform on those weeks and when they were menstruating. Be sensitive to dancers who might be mourning, who might you know be going through a tough time. Like we're all humans, right? I did hear but though, again, from some dancers that they have leaders that are doing these things. And I was really encouraged. And then I heard from other dancers that didn't have leaders who were doing these things. So a lot of these cues are very subtle.
00:21:25
Speaker
empowering dancers with the opportunity to wear flesh colored tights and flesh colored toe shoes that match their flesh color, right, is one way that you can reaffirm their individuality. Not everybody needs to wear pink tights, especially if that doesn't match their individuality. There's little little things that you can do as a leader to signal that you care about the humanity of your dancers.
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that even amazing, great leaders, you know, we have our bad days. Like there's days when you're just like stressed out and you've had it coming from the top and it's coming down and now it's flooding out because you're stressed and you're trying to get the best out of your dancers. it doesn't always go the way you want it to. So I think just being aware of these things we're talking about. Yeah. And then when that does happen, own it, right? Say like, Hey, you know what?
00:22:11
Speaker
Yesterday or last week or whenever it was, I had a bad day and I took it out on you and I'm sorry, right? Like I'm human. i recognize I'm not perfect. Leaders are humans too. Yeah. We're all going to have our bad days, right? Like make it a space where people own their fallibility and embrace it rather than try to run from it. And that really signals a safe place to learn from mistakes rather than to be kicking yourself in the head every single teeny tiny, you know, mistake you make.
00:22:39
Speaker
hu Do you think that awareness of this topic and this research helps dancers?
Thriving in Challenging Environments
00:22:46
Speaker
Basically, do you think that dancers can still thrive in a maladaptive environment if they are aware of what's happening around them? Or is it really necessary to change the environment again?
00:22:54
Speaker
to reach this supportive level of high achievement? So that's a fantastic question and it's a complex question with a complex answer. So in our research, we did see many examples of dancers who who did stay in the same environment, even if it was not the most supportive environment.
00:23:10
Speaker
And through the social cues of their colleagues or perhaps like one or two supportive people within the environment or even external to the environment, they did learn over time to embrace a healthier form of perfectionism. So you do see some dancers who are working in incredibly unsupportive environments who choose to exit the field.
00:23:27
Speaker
You see some who shift to companies that are more supportive. but You see some who shift to freelance careers where they feel that they have more agency and individuality. i did that in my career and found that very rewarding.
00:23:39
Speaker
But you do see plenty of dancers who stay in their environments. And over time, they learn to treat themselves with some more self-compassion, you know, they do iterate. Dancers do tend to iterate, as we found in the research, between their good days and their bad days, as Rachel said earlier, specifically for dancers who have been in more dehumanizing environments in the past. Those sort of elements of self-criticism and...
00:24:02
Speaker
self-hatred might be taking a bit far, but it you know it sometimes can manifest as self-hatred. Those times will come back, but I think that the dancers who are able to sort of sustain healthier form of perfectionism over time are the ones who have learned how to pull themselves out of those spirals and bring themselves back to a place of more adaptive perfectionism. So I do think it's possible. It's very challenging. But I think one thing that we also want to caution against is putting the onus on the dancer. Like we do believe that the environments and the organizations have to change and that leaders need to be aware of their own fallibility and humanity and, you know, ability to be imperfect leaders. And like Rachel said, to sort of own their mistakes and to be vulnerable and open with their dancers about the times that they've been imperfect as leaders.
00:24:49
Speaker
So it makes it more okay for dancers to be imperfect and to learn from those mistakes. so Ultimately, yes, it is possible for dancers to learn to embrace healthier performance of perfectionism in spite of their work environment.
00:25:01
Speaker
But we still argue that work environments need to change and that the onus should not be on dancers and that the culture should shift. Yeah, just to back that up, I think that was a great response, Allie. I would just add to that something in our model that's important to understand is that after dancers go through this cycle of going back and forth between maladaptive and adaptive cycles of perfectionism, they learn from it.
00:25:22
Speaker
Right. And they can learn to avoid breakdowns. Like they can learn which cues are triggering them, which dehumanizing cues might be worse for them. And they can learn strategies. A lot of dancers we talked to were working with therapists to help them to do this. and learning what responses their bodies might have to certain cues, they're not doomed to break down every time, right? There's definitely an element of opportunity to learn from these cycles, but it does require us to be receptive to the cues. We can't just ignore the cues and expect to learn from them.
00:25:55
Speaker
um So yes, the onus is totally on the organizations to try to create environments with better cues or rehumanizing cues rather than dehumanizing cues. in high pressure to perform environments. And also we have to teach employees or or dancers teach themselves how to be open to those cues and learn from them.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great addition, Rachel. It's sort of bi-directional where the onus is neither solely on the dancer or solely on the organization. Like we are working in these high pressure environments. The standards are high.
00:26:28
Speaker
We hold ourselves to high standards, which you know, again, like you said earlier, Caitlin, which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's like, do we put ourselves in these environments because we're drawn to such perfectionistic and, you know, striving for excellence or does the environment make it worse? It's cyclical.
00:26:45
Speaker
But dancers do learn over time also to more healthily manage their cues. And we did see that more senior dancers, dancers who are more seasoned in their careers tend to, you know, learn healthier management practices.
00:26:57
Speaker
So I'm curious for both of you, since you've both been in this dance world and you understand what it takes and what it's like, did the research that you did, did it change how you personally think about your own relationship with perfectionism?
Personal Insights from Research on Perfectionism
00:27:12
Speaker
I think it definitely did for me, you know, I definitely think I fall into the category of having bounced back and forth between maladaptive adaptive perfectionistic tendencies and not understanding how they work very well. And so this research was really personal in that way that it helped me to better understand myself and it helped me to better understand so many others that I think were frustrated with these cues that were interfering with their work that they didn't even know were interfering with their work and until we found these themes and patterns across so many dancers that were kind of saying the same thing.
00:27:45
Speaker
So yeah, it was great to learn from, we call it me-search, right? Research me-search, yes. Right, right. I mean, that's not at all how this project started, but I do definitely feel like I've learned from every project as a researcher. Yeah, it's really fulfilling work.
00:28:01
Speaker
What would you say, Allie? Yes. So I would say absolutely and very deeply. This research changed how I have thought about my own relationship with perfectionism. There's been a pretty illuminating research process. I've joked with friends and colleagues throughout this entire process that, oh, working on this paper on a good day, it's incredibly gratifying. And on a bad day, it's very triggering because the data that we found just hits so hard.
00:28:24
Speaker
And so while analyzing our data and combing through the interviews, I often found myself feeling so validated in my own experiences and struggles with perfectionism. you know, like all of the dancers that we talk to in our research, I too have felt the pressures of perfectionism, the denial of my agency, fallibility, individuality, and subjectivity. I've felt it many times during my dance career. So this paper was actually published just a few days before my 35th birthday and was somehow aligned with some big life changes, you know, hitting my mid-30s.
00:28:54
Speaker
transitioning into my more full-time career as a researcher, moving away from my full-time dance career. and the release of the paper has actually prompted me to reassess the ways that I'm approaching all of these life changes and have made me really reflect on the ways that I've carried my own maladaptive perfectionistic tendencies with me into this new chapter.
00:29:13
Speaker
As I mentioned before, with many of our subjects, we found that as dancers became more seasoned in their careers, they became more able to healthily cope with their own perfectionism in their dancing. And I found that too, but as I'm starting out in a new career, I definitely find the head of maladaptive perfectionism sort of like rearing its ugly head. Some days I feel like I'm starting from scratch in a new field.
00:29:35
Speaker
So I have seen my maladaptive perfectionistic tendencies creep back pretty strongly. They've affected my wellbeing, my sense of self-worth, my relationships. And honestly, the publication of this paper has been a real wake up call for me and has forced me and Rachel, I know I've talked to you about this separately many times. It's really forced me to reassess my approach to things and to get more support as I embrace the big life transition and to try to be a little bit more compassionate towards myself, which is not always easy. It's been illuminating.
00:30:04
Speaker
you know, I agree with Rachel, research me search and you can learn a lot about yourself through this process as well. Well, even hearing you both talk about this and reading the paper and and learning about it for this interview, i have also definitely noticed a lot of my tendencies that I wasn't even aware of in the past couple weeks. like Things will happen and I'm feeling kind of negative about myself and I'm like, oh that was triggering for me. and it's like, like you said, like learning what your triggers are, and then being able to stop in that moment and say, okay, this is not your best self.
00:30:38
Speaker
This yeah environment does trigger you. But it's not always even like a bad environment. It's just like certain things happening that aren't even they're not necessarily even anyone being that kind to me or anything happening that's nefarious, but it's just like these subtle things that happen around you that you go, you just start going into, like you said, if you've been in that environment before, it does feel like it's very easy to kind of go back there.
00:31:02
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. i mean, it could be as simple as somebody who nails a triple pirouette that you've been working on for weeks. And that social comparison happens, that you know, you see this, and you feel frustrated, upset, that cue signaling, like, oh, they're perfect. And that's what people expect of me, you know, other cues in the environment that suggests there's this denial of fallibility, right? Like, you know, everyone's looking in the mirror all the time, everyone's dressed, you know, perfect all the time, right? Like, it doesn't even have to be someone saying it, it could be you know, these visual cues that dancers are picking up on. Again, it's great to embrace a little bit of a culture of imperfectionism or maybe, you know, like, Hey, for classes, for rehearsals, like we can wear warmups doesn't matter as much, but you know, obviously on stage, there's like a certain expectation that you're going to be really perfectly put together. So no one can be perfect or striving for perfectionism at all times. It's absolutely exhausting, right? Pick and choose the times that you really want people to be on so that they don't feel exhausted by having to be on all the time.
00:31:59
Speaker
Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it.
00:32:12
Speaker
As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves.
00:32:24
Speaker
That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide. This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease. No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package.
00:32:39
Speaker
With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional. We're talking resumes, headshots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it.
00:32:55
Speaker
It is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultima Audition Guide, and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional.
00:33:08
Speaker
Would you share with the listeners, what is one main takeaway that you hope people are going to carry away from this conversation today?
Valuing Individuals Beyond Their Roles
00:33:16
Speaker
There was one thing that resonates with me over and over again about this work. It's just the importance of treating people and valuing people as more than just instruments.
00:33:29
Speaker
We need to make sure that we are reaffirming people. and connecting with them and seeing them as human and people with real rich human lives.
00:33:42
Speaker
If we can connect with them that way at work while continuing to strive for excellence and not dropping the bar, I think that we can do great things. And I want to say we would not have been able to do this work.
00:33:58
Speaker
It would not have been possible without amazing coauthors. Lyndon Garrett isn't here. Allie is here. But, you they were fantastic to work with. The professional ballet dancers, the choreographers, the directors who generously shared their observations, their experiences, and they got raw with us, right? Like, we are so, so appreciative of their feedback.
00:34:18
Speaker
We are so, so appreciative of them being willing to share their lives and their experiences in the ballet world to help us to bring this work together. So thank you all who might be listening.
00:34:29
Speaker
Amazing. Rachel, you need a pop out? Yes. I'm sorry I have to run. You're amazing. No, thank you, Bye. Okay, Allie, what would you say is your one main takeaway that you hope listeners carry from this conversation?
The Role of Self-Compassion
00:34:41
Speaker
The key takeaway for me is to be kind to yourself and to get out of your own way. Because I think many of the most successful and talented and capable people i know, and I think that all of us know, tend to struggle with maladaptive perfectionism.
00:34:54
Speaker
we tend to be so hard on ourselves and so self-critical. People often remind me, if you spoke to others the way that you speak to yourself, you wouldn't have any friends. you know So why do we think it's okay to judge ourselves and treat ourselves with such disdain?
00:35:09
Speaker
So think a little self-compassion goes a long way. And when we get stuck in our own maladaptive perfectionistic spirals, we get in our own way, we hold ourselves back. And I think it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So my takeaway is to be gentle towards yourself. And most importantly,
00:35:24
Speaker
When you inevitably have human moments and you slip back into a moment of maladaptive perfectionism, remember that it's okay to not be perfect, even on this journey towards managing perfectionism, because we are, of course, human.
00:35:37
Speaker
And that is sort of the point of all of this. So yeah that's my key takeaway. and Okay. Allie, could you give us any actionable steps you have for that? Because... you hear it and you're like, yes, be gentle with yourself. Yes, be kind to yourself. Yes, of course. And then in the moment you're like, I'm the worst. I stink. I should just quit everything. You know, it's like, what, like, what would you do as someone with all this knowledge, like in a moment where you're having these very self-critical thoughts, like what are the exact steps you would take?
00:36:06
Speaker
mean, I'm sure every situation is different, but just for dancers to have like a really actionable process to do that. That's a great question. And, you know, I'm still working on this for myself to be completely transparent and in the spirit of not being perfect.
00:36:21
Speaker
I don't have the perfect answer to that. I'm still working on that for myself. And as I mentioned earlier, i have struggled with perfectionism again, deeply as I've moved into my new career, major imposter syndrome. But I think I'll speak to sort of, you know, the later part of my dance career when I had it more well managed and as I'm sort of working with it now,
00:36:41
Speaker
as I'm transitioning into this new career, I think the first key step is to have an awareness of it. Early on in many of our dance careers or careers in academia or anything, so many of us tend to be self-critical and we don't even have the realization that our thoughts are possibly steeped in something that is not reality.
00:36:59
Speaker
So I think having the awareness of the fact that we are doing this to ourselves because of something our brain is doing or something that social cues and the environment are perpetuating is key. Now, that doesn't it always take away the terrible feelings. Like you can have sort of a meta sense of what's going on and it doesn't necessarily prevent you from having the feelings. But I think the second step is to find the key support people in your environment who do provide you with those social cues and who do provide you with the support to take yourself out of it. So I think knowing yourself, having a deep sense of awareness of I'm spiraling right now, I'm not in a healthy mindset, I'm not doing well, who are the people around me who I can talk to, who can cue me in the way that will move me into a more adaptive place?
00:37:45
Speaker
I think those are two crucial steps. I'm also a huge proponent of therapy. We all are on our individual journeys, and especially for those of us who come through the dance world and inevitably come through this training culture where we are taught that we have to be better, better, better, and more and more, more, more.
00:38:01
Speaker
ah do think that we will be unpacking this as individuals probably for the rest of our lives. Again, I speak from my own experience transitioning into a new career, and I'm still experiencing it.
00:38:12
Speaker
I do think that having somebody who you can talk to, and that kind of reinforces my point about social cues, which like you get the right cues from the right therapist or clinician or just somebody who's a safe space for you to talk to. And ultimately just patience with yourself, like knowing that it starts with the awareness and you need that sort of meta knowledge of the sense that this is something that the culture you've been trained in has imbued in you.
00:38:36
Speaker
then seeking out the right people to give you the right support, perhaps getting professional support as well, and then being patient with yourself. And like I said, not kicking yourself for not being perfect in your journey towards shifting from maladaptive to adaptive perfectionism. like that will be a process.
00:38:54
Speaker
So I think it's messy. There are actionable steps, but it's not a quick fix as and't anything in life. You know, I think it's like you have your steps, you do your work, and it's a constant daily project.
00:39:06
Speaker
And I think what we saw in the research and what I've experienced on my own as well is that over time, you get better and better at pulling yourself out of the ruts when you're spiraling into maladaptive perfectionism. And you can more quickly pull yourself out of that and bring yourself to a healthier place of adaptive perfectionism. So be patient and be proud of yourself for the small steps of of improvement along the way.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And I would say like as a teacher now, I'm finding that, I mean, I've been teaching for 15 years, so it's not like it's a new thing that I'm doing, but it's interesting because I still will fall into imposter syndrome.
00:39:44
Speaker
And I will still will fall into comparison, maybe even more so than I did as a dancer, which is kind of another interesting phenomenon that I don't quite. I think it's because as a teacher, more feels out of your control. As a dancer, you feel like. Interesting. And I feel like this maybe translates a little bit to like a leadership position in a company, too, where it's like.
00:40:03
Speaker
As a dancer, you felt like there's definitely things out of your control, like we said, like the scheduling, what your casting is, da-da-da, but your control of your dancing, like you're the one who's going to go on stage and do the thing. As a teacher, as an artistic director, now you have to produce results.
00:40:19
Speaker
yeah so to say, without being the one doing it. And so I noticed that when I start to get stressed about that, then I start to fall into what I would categorize as not great behaviors on my part, where I get really more harsh on my students and like less patience. You know, I still think I'm a kind person and I never intentionally doing anything harmful, but I would definitely say I can be shorter and less patient and Not the teacher that I want to be and not the leader that I think is going to inspire my students in those moments. And it's so it's interesting how I have to check myself constantly and be like, okay, you are having an imposter syndrome moment.
00:40:56
Speaker
And now you're going to pass that on to your classes. And that's not fair to them. And it's not going to help them and like go through all these steps. And so I have to like remind myself, you do know what you're doing. one Yeah. Two, it is going to be messy and they're going to have to make mistakes and figure it out. And that's part of learning and you have to be okay with that. And like, I have to even 15 years into being teacher, continually go through that process because you care about your dancers so much, you want to see them succeed. And so it stresses you out when they don't right away. Right. Totally. And you have to be okay with that. So just kind of like to add my two cents from what I've been just experiencing, like you said, it's a constant practice and being in this environment, we've been trained to think a certain way and to be a certain kind of environment. So it's like constantly checking yourself and realizing that, like we said earlier, you're going to have days where you don't really feel like maybe you are your best self and communicating, Hey, that wasn't a great day for me is really going to be powerful.
00:41:52
Speaker
And also not taking that on and getting so self-critical for that, you know, and having a little bit of self-compassion for that. I mean, you sort of hit the nail on the head with like, you know, it's a constant checking in process. I think that's a key takeaway as well is that perfectionism, You know, in much of the literature prior to artwork conceives of perfectionism as a fixed trait, like a state. and what we're finding is that it doesn't necessarily need to be a fixed trait or state. It's a process. So I think it's a process, not a state.
00:42:20
Speaker
Like rather than labeling yourself as somebody who's just a perfectionist, I think some people wear it as a badge of honor. Like I'm a perfectionist. Some people use it as a negative thing, like, oh, I struggle with perfectionism. But rather than using it as a badge or an identifier, like this is a process that you're working on every day. but And I think at the root of it is it comes from caring deeply about something. You care deeply about your craft. You care deeply about your students. You care deeply about the work that you're doing in whatever context you're in. And it's like it is a process daily of managing your deep care for this thing.
00:42:51
Speaker
with the fact that you're a human and that you will make mistakes and that you will grow from those mistakes and that some days you will be overly hard on yourself and you won't be the best version of yourself and other days you'll manage it better and it's a process not a state I think it's a takeaway.
00:43:05
Speaker
Exactly I love that. Allie this has been really really amazing and I'm so grateful for both you and Rachel coming on today to chat all about this. I will link in the show notes if you'd like to learn more about this topic or if you want to reach out to Allie or Rachel.
00:43:20
Speaker
And if you liked this conversation, definitely tune into episode 34, where I interviewed Allie all about her personal Valley journey. It was a super fun episode that I really, really enjoyed chatting with you, Allie. So tune into that one. And thank you so much for all of your time today. Thank you so much for having us. It's great to see you again.
00:43:40
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:43:53
Speaker
By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your reigns help others discover the show too.
00:44:06
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.