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62. The Truth About Being a Ballerina with Gavin Larsen
123 Plays1 day ago
In this episode, I’m joined by former principal ballerina and author Gavin Larsen to discuss the full arc of a ballet career - from the innocence of a child’s first class to the quiet, often emotional decision to step away from the stage.
With striking honesty and warmth, Gavin retraces her early, formative years as a student in New York, through the rigorous training at the School of American Ballet, into her professional years with major companies like Pacific Northwest Ballet, Alberta Ballet, and Oregon Ballet Theatre. Along the way, she touches on issues that resonate deeply with dancers at all levels: identity, injury, finding artistic fulfillment, and reinvention.
This episode not only provides a front-row seat to Gavin’s career but also gives listeners a behind-the-scenes look at the creation of her acclaimed memoir Being a Ballerina, the Brainy Ballerina Book Club’s current pick!
Key “Pointes” in this Episode
- Gavin’s training at the School of American Ballet beginning at the age of 11
- The start of her professional career in the corps of Pacific Northwest Ballet
- How Gavin chose to move to Alberta Ballet - a smaller company that offered huge artistic opportunities and growth
- The chance meeting that led Gavin to Oregon Ballet Theatre, the company she would finish her dance career with
- How she knew it was time to retire from the stage after 18 years as a professional ballerina
- The journey of writing her memoir, Being a Ballerina, starting with vivid, honest “snapshots” of her dance life.
Connect with Gavin:
WEBSITE: www.gavinlarsen.com
FACEBOOK: facebook.com/GavinLarsenAuthor/
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/gavinalarsen/
Links and Resources:
Join the Brainy Ballerina Book Club: https://www.thebrainyballerina.com/the-brainy-ballerina-book-club
Get 20% off your first order of ALOHA protein bars: https://aloha.com/BRAINYBALLERINA
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
The Universal Bond of Dance
00:00:00
Speaker
I felt like I was speaking to every dancer and I was also speaking as every dancer. The commonality of our experiences is much greater than any of the differences.
00:00:13
Speaker
We all know that, all dancers know that. We have this bond, we have this common denominator that is in our souls that is just undeniable. We all have that same flame and that same compulsion.
00:00:28
Speaker
And it's really hard to articulate, but that's why when you meet another dancer, you have that instant connection. You instantly feel like you know them, even if you don't.
Kaitlyn's Journey from Ballerina to Educator
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm Kaitlyn, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Meet Gavin Larson: Dancer and Author
00:01:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Gavin Larson. Gavin was a professional ballet dancer for 18 years before retiring as a principal dancer with Oregon Ballet Theater in 2010.
00:01:25
Speaker
two thousand and ten She was also a member of Pacific Northwest Ballet, Alberta Ballet, the Suzanne Farrell Ballet, and appeared as a guest artist with Ballet Victoria. Her memoir, Being a Ballerina, was published in 2021 and is also our current Brainy Ballerina Book Club pick. So I am super excited to pick Gavin's brain today and just hear all about her dancing journey. So Gavin, can we start from the very beginning today? And I would love to hear why did you take your very first dance
Gavin's Early Dance Experiences
00:01:53
Speaker
class?
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah. Hi, Caitlin. Thanks for having me. It's really a pleasure. of've been really enjoying listening to your show. So why did I take my first ballet class? I have no idea. I really don't. The whole beginning is very fuzzy in my mind, in my memory.
00:02:07
Speaker
i know that I did always just love dancing around the house. Everyone says this, right? As soon as mom and dad put on music, the kids like dancing around the living room. And I definitely did that a lot. And I loved costumes.
00:02:19
Speaker
From a very young age, I love playing dress up. And so when my folks would have dinner parties or they'd have guests over, I love to go and you know pick out my favorite dress from my dress up box and then make an entrance into the living room like through the double doors, like I was up appearing on stage.
00:02:34
Speaker
but Somehow I already had this like love of that, the presentation and the stage and the you know yeah the acting and putting on the production. and also just moving to music.
00:02:46
Speaker
So I know I took a ah couple like after school ballet tap combo, you know, in some classroom somewhere, but somehow I ended up in a ballet class and i don't know why my parents can't remember exactly why, but there was a neighborhood school called the New York School of Ballet. up on the abhorror side of Manhattan.
00:03:03
Speaker
And so this was just a few blocks down Broadway from where we lived and they enrolled me, you know, once a week. class there. And at first I actually didn't like it very much. It was really intimidating. The teacher scared me. i mistakenly wandered into a class that was more advanced and I was an absolute beginner. And so, I don't know, no one stopped me. I went into the wrong studio. I don't know exactly.
00:03:26
Speaker
happened. But so I walked in my first day and like, they all knew all these steps and things. And I had no idea what I was doing. So that first impression was one of just terror and like, what? I don't like that.
00:03:38
Speaker
But I kept going back. And I actually think I kept going back partly because my parents had paid for a whole bunch of, you know, a semester or something. And they were like,
00:03:49
Speaker
we We know you're doing, come on, you're doing this. We paid for it And over time it grew on me as it does for all of us. And I just kept going and going and going. I never wanted to do anything else.
00:04:02
Speaker
Can you talk more about your training growing up? When did you transition to the School of American Ballet?
Training at the School of American Ballet
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, I stayed at that neighborhood studio called the New York School of Ballet, which interestingly was located, it's not there anymore, but it was located in the exact same building and studios where School of American Ballet had been decades previously.
00:04:25
Speaker
I think back in the 50s, 60s, or maybe 60s, 70s. I might might have my facts right there. But, you know, I have now seen lots of pictures of Balanchine choreographing and rehearsing and teaching in those studios. There's some really famous pictures.
00:04:39
Speaker
So I didn't know it at the time, but anyways, it's sort of neat to know that now. So I was there for a few years and i had started to get more interested in it and like it a lot and was, I guess, showing some aptitude. And my teachers there were telling my parents, well, you know, she's got some some potential here. And the school had to close because they lost their lease and it was being turned into a Barnes and Noble, which is what it is now.
00:05:04
Speaker
ah Yeah. And so, you know, I was 11 then and the teachers there told my parents, well, if you know, if Gavin's interested and wants to keep doing it, you should audition for the School of American Ballet, which was just a few blocks further downtown.
00:05:19
Speaker
And we didn't know anything about it. We don't know what it was, but I went to an audition and got in. So I was 11 and tumbled again, like sort of stumbled into something. I didn't know what I was getting into. I'd know I'd never heard of SAB. I think my parents knew what New York City Ballet was, but they just knew the name.
00:05:39
Speaker
So I started going and that led to the rest of my life. It was all like yeah just all sort of snowball effect from there. What was your experience like at SAB? How did this time of your training really prepare you for your professional career?
Performing with New York City Ballet
00:05:54
Speaker
It was everything. It was absolutely everything. i remember my first couple of years, I was just like wide-eyed about everything. i was 11. I was in a fourth division. And um most of the girls in my class had been training at SAB since like first division. So they were already, you know, quote, veterans.
00:06:13
Speaker
And I was coming in a little bit late. So even though i was only 11. But the most formative immediate thing was performing with New York City Ballet because, you know, all the children SAB are used in the City Ballet productions. And so one of the first things that happened just a couple weeks after I started was the Nutcracker audition.
00:06:33
Speaker
You know, again, all the other girls in my class had done this for years already. And so they knew all about it. And I just sort of tagged along and went in and I was cast as a Paula Chanel and a baby mouse and the rehearsal process.
00:06:46
Speaker
Then when we got into the theater, being backstage, all of that, something in my head just clicked, in my body, and my like in my soul just clicked. And I knew that was my world.
00:06:58
Speaker
It just felt right. you know i mean, I know you understand that. And a lot of listeners understand that. It's just, this is it. This is my home. Even though I don't think I had that conscious thought, I just felt like...
00:07:10
Speaker
This is right. So then the training was like, got really intense and really hard. I was used to hard teachers because I actually had at the New York school of ballet before I'd had really, you know, the teachers were, it was, you know, a casual sort of a recreational program, but the teachers were, you know, they gave it to us. It was real.
00:07:28
Speaker
So I was used to tough teaching. And I was used to trying really hard and just my instinct was to give it 150%. I naturally took to that style of teaching at SAB. It was not warm and fuzzy then. i won't say it was particularly nurturing, but my independent spirit and my stubbornness really took okay to that.
00:07:55
Speaker
Though, you know, there were plenty of times where I was like emotionally wounded and I felt sort of intimidated, but I was, yeah, like so stubborn and determined that didn't harm me at all. So I just learned and learned and learned and learned. And the technical training was so good, you know, especially in those like fourth, fifth division years. And then in B1, the like intermediate levels, the technical training got me and all my classmates so strong.
00:08:24
Speaker
that by the time we got to the advanced levels, we didn't need to worry quite as much on just building physical technique and physical strength. And then we can really at like 15 already start thinking a lot deeply about artistry and presentation and performing.
00:08:42
Speaker
Now looking back on it, it's interesting to see sort of those three phases of training built into my time at SAB, but it it prepared me incredibly well. One thing I will say was lacking from the advanced years there was performance experience, because once I stopped being in the children's roles with City Ballet, you know, in the intermediate advanced levels, I think it's different now, but then there were no performance opportunities really, except for workshop at the end of the year.
00:09:08
Speaker
There were these lecture demonstration programs that we did, but I didn't do that until my last year there. So for the intermediate and beginning of my advanced time, i was just performing once a year. And so I missed out on that ability to get really, really comfortable on stage.
00:09:23
Speaker
which a lot of other schools offer and a lot our students get. But again, i mean, I think I'm a natural performer, so I never felt uncomfortable on stage, even though I didn't get a lot of that experience training.
Transitioning to a Professional Career
00:09:34
Speaker
It always felt pretty comfortable and I felt pretty at home being out there.
00:09:38
Speaker
From your senior year at SAB, going into your career, What was that process like for you? Did you audition? Were you sort of scouted within the school? I had gone to the Pacific Northwest Ballet Summer School.
00:09:52
Speaker
SAB discourages the students from staying at SAB during summer. You know, the thing to do was audition for all of the summer intensives and who's going to Boston? Who's going to Pennsylvania Ballet? Who's going to Miami? Who's going here and where?
00:10:04
Speaker
I didn't, again, again, like it seems like a theme of my life. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to follow along. ah So a bunch of people are going to the Pacific Northwest Ballet audition. And so i was like, okay, that sounds fine. I'll go.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I got in and they actually gave me a half scholarship. And I was like, oh, wow, that's exciting. That's cool. So I guess I'll go. i was 14 that year and I went and it was really eyeopening because it was so different from SAB in good ways.
00:10:33
Speaker
you know It was kind of everything SAB wasn't in terms of atmosphere. It was very nurturing. It felt much more relaxed.
00:10:44
Speaker
Classes and the whole just atmosphere in the school just felt so much more, i don't want to say casual because that sounds bad, but but it was so much more relaxed. And I got this distinct sense of,
00:10:59
Speaker
Like everyone in the school, everyone is great. And each student, you know, was really made to feel like not coddled, but like you have so much potential and you're great at this and let's work on this and.
00:11:13
Speaker
At SAB at that time, the atmosphere was, it was much more impersonal and there wasn't a lot of individual feedback or discussion or anything. And I mean, I really felt more like I was on my own, like in terms of like teaching myself with what I was given. And at PNB that summer, it felt really exciting because i I could feel my own potential, I guess.
00:11:36
Speaker
And i also just really loved being there. I love Seattle and I love the classes and the teachers there. So I'm back the next summer. And that summer, Francia Russell, who was the co-director of the company and the director of the school, she you know had a meeting with me at the end of the summer and and asked if I'd be interested in staying there to train year round.
00:11:55
Speaker
And I said, oh gosh, you you know no, i don't I haven't finished high school yet. I don't want to leave. And and she totally understood and said, no, we it's really valuable to be able to get high quality training and stay at home.
00:12:07
Speaker
through high school years, which, you know, so many students who are aspiring professionals have to leave home really young. And and she said, if you don't have to do that, we don't want to make you do that. So just stay in touch. Know that, you know, we think you're a really talented dancer and, you know, might be interested in having you here someday. She didn't say like, we're looking at you considering you for the company She said something sort of more cryptic, like, yeah, something more cryptic like that, just to make me go like, hmm.
00:12:31
Speaker
So I went back to SAB. and then came back for a third summer to the PNB school. And at the end of that summer, I had another meeting with her and with Kent Stowell, the co-artistic director at the time.
00:12:43
Speaker
And they said, ask what my plans were for my future. And I said I wanted to dance professionally and I would be auditioning for companies the following year you know during that coming a audition season, which is my senior year of high school.
00:12:54
Speaker
And they said, well, make sure you come to our audition in New York in March. You know, we're very interested in you. You're a very strong dancer and we think you would fit well in this company. So let's stay in touch and we hope to see you then.
00:13:05
Speaker
And that, you know, that's exciting to hear, but of course it's no guarantee. So went back to SAB and I did my last year and went to the PNB audition and which was held at SAB nice and conveniently that March. And It was like a huge cattle call.
00:13:19
Speaker
You know, everyone has their number on as it is. And at the end of the audition, they're calling out which numbers they wanted to have stay and talk to. And they totally skipped over my number. And I was like, oh, darn.
00:13:33
Speaker
Oh, well, okay. It was exciting to think about, but I guess not going to happen. And then at the very end, they said, oh, yes, and Gavin. So They called me up and I guess everyone else they were talking to was they wanted to come to their school for the year round program or something like that. And they said, well, we'd love to have you in our company.
00:13:50
Speaker
And that was that. So that's how I found out I was going to be a professional dancer. And it didn't even occur to me to ask, you know, am I apprentice? I'm in the court of ballet. When does it start? Anything at all. No questions, just okay.
00:14:03
Speaker
They ended up being able to offer me a ah quarter ballet contract. I think something shifted with their they're current dancers and they, I just now, it's like that is just incredible. I mean, that just so rarely happens. But again, I didn't really know how massive that was or what a responsibility it was.
Life at Pacific Northwest Ballet
00:14:18
Speaker
But I moved out there to Seattle that summer and started work. And what was that transition like? How did you go from student life to professional life? It was actually a hard transition because like I said a minute ago, I hadn't had very much performing experience at SAB.
00:14:36
Speaker
And i certainly, you know, the class load at SAB year round was not that intense. I mean, we had at the most three classes a day. i mean, usually it was just two and then some rehearsals if we were getting ready for workshop.
00:14:52
Speaker
So I was not used to dancing all day long. And right away off the bat, I had six hour long rehearsal days plus class beforehand. And I was not ready for that physically or mentally.
00:15:08
Speaker
And it was rough. I remember my first few weeks of rehearsal being like, whoa, what is going on? I was so confused. I was like looking around at my fellow core members, like, wait, you guys, like what?
00:15:22
Speaker
This is for real? Like, this is it? Like, this is the life? Wait, wait, wait, stop. I mean, I couldn't believe it. I was like, what did I sign up for? i don't know about this, guys. Yeah.
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, it it turned out like that was an exceptionally difficult rehearsal period and it was not always that hard. And even the veteran corps members were like, yeah, this is actually much harder than usual. We don't always have this many hours in a row Don't worry. It's not always as bad.
00:15:50
Speaker
But just being in pointe shoes that many hours a day, i was dying. It was awful, but I made it through that first rehearsal period. And we did our first performances and I got used to it once I realized sort of the ebb and the flow of the season and of the rehearsal days and the rehearsal weeks and how to read the rehearsal schedule, how to read the casting, how to get yourself prepared to go into a rehearsal if you haven't had one right, you know, immediately beforehand, how to get ready for performances.
00:16:22
Speaker
The stage makeup, I was so naive about stage makeup because I'd done it like twice, you know, aside from being a little kid as a polish nail. Warming up, getting my shoes ready, costume. I mean, oh, so many things were new.
00:16:36
Speaker
And luckily, the other core dancers in the company at the time were so helpful. The really great thing that I learned and felt right away was that camaraderie that's in a company, which is very different from a group of classmates in a school. Your classmates and your peers in your school, yeah, you're really tight and you're really close and you really help each other out and everything. But in a company, it's a different dynamic. And that I felt immediately and that felt really good and really exciting to be a part of that. I just loved that sense of being part of that team and part of this organization.
00:17:12
Speaker
You know, I was way at the bottom and, you know, there's all these tiers and ranks and the hierarchy and the They call them ballet mistresses back then still. and now you know But the you rehearsal directors and the choreographers and the director and the stage manager and all these different levels and layers of people doing different things for the same product and for the same reason, that team spirit just like welled up inside me. And I just love that pride. It was really exciting to feel so proud of being part of something, even though my part was pretty small at that time.
00:17:46
Speaker
How long did you stay with Pacific Northwest Ballet? I was there for seven years. Yeah. Great, great, great time. you know Obviously, it has its ups and downs. Everything in life has its ups and downs. and There were high points and low points, but it was incredibly formative and you know, now that I'm looking back on my whole career, I'm really grateful that my first company was a big one.
00:18:10
Speaker
I learned right away, like what it's all about and how it's supposed to be the big time, so to speak, you know, it wasn't New York City Ballet, but a big company, there were like 50 dancers, we toured, productions were huge and the organization was huge.
00:18:27
Speaker
And so I got to see the way everything worked organizationally, right away and you know feeling part of a really big organization was great i just i learned everything but you know i was also really ambitious i didn't want to be in the court of ballet and that was not just because of a sense of pride and like wanting to have a fancier title than court of ballet dancer it was because i really felt like there was more in me than doing core parts and it wasn't just me sort of like wanting live out my ballerina dreams which i didn't really ever have
00:19:02
Speaker
I just wanted to dance. And I looked at the principal dancer parts and their music and their choreography. And my body, like it almost hurt me to watch and not be doing it myself.
00:19:14
Speaker
I wanted to do, you know, that theme and variations pas de deux. and the Sugar Plum Fairy Pas de Deux. And i wanted to physically do them so bad that standing there in the corridor, ballet behind them was like, it became just like a knife.
00:19:30
Speaker
And i started to get some solos here and there, got some nice little parts and you know a couple of standout features. But that it was always just like a once in a while thing. it It didn't become regular. And I saw that other dancers that did get promoted eventually throughout the company, you know, sort of the pattern was, you know, you get a kind of a solo and then it's not just like, okay, that was that.
00:19:53
Speaker
Then another one comes and another one comes and they kind of build and, For me, it seemed like every so often they would toss me ah a solo part just to be sort of reward me for being a loyal core member, you know for working being nice and reliable.
Opportunities at Alberta Ballet
00:20:07
Speaker
It wasn't a ah trajectory that I was on. my you know My friends, they just you sort of encouraged me to say, you should audition for other companies. Why not? You have a good resume here. You've you've got a lot good credentials now that you've been in PNB for a while. And and so I did.
00:20:24
Speaker
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00:20:42
Speaker
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00:21:10
Speaker
And the best news is you can get 20% off your first order with code BRAINYBALLERINA. Head to the show notes and click the link to try Aloha Protein Bars for yourself today. I got brave and I started auditioning for companies And that's how I ended up in Alberta Ballet in Calgary, Alberta after seven years at PMB, which was not what I had expected, where I'd expected to go You know, when I started auditioning, I was hitting all the other places that I knew, you know, Miami city ballet and Pennsylvania ballet and Boston ballet and Carolina, all of the places that I knew. And I had never heard of Alberta ballet.
00:21:48
Speaker
But I was having coffee with a friend and and she said, well, if you're sending your resume around to places, there's this company in Calgary and I heard they have a new director who used to be in San Francisco ballet. And so I said.
00:22:00
Speaker
Great, sure, I'll send them my stuff. So i was casting my I started casting my net a lot wider. It was Mikko Nisunen, who was the new director there of Alberta Ballet. i sent him my resume and then I got a phone call.
00:22:13
Speaker
it It was mid-summer by this time, so it was past audition season. And he said, well, you know one of my dancers actually just broke their contract. They actually just you know backed out of their contract for this coming season and we start in two weeks.
00:22:27
Speaker
And your resume just landed on my desk. And do you have a video you can send me? Because this was also pre like YouTube. So we weren't sending like video reels by, you know, a link.
00:22:38
Speaker
We were using VHS tapes. So I overnight express mailed him a VHS tape, you know, that I had sort of cobbled together of my like audition stuff. And he called back the next day and said, yeah, well, you know, the job is yours if you want it.
00:22:52
Speaker
And I said, okay, why not? Was it a soloist contract or were going to another court of ballet? It was um an unranked company. Yeah, so I was just going ah because it was all sort of last minute. Again, like I didn't think to say, you know, what do you have in mind for me, yeah you know, on the season? and But as soon as we got there, we had more of a conversation. and a meeting and he'd seen me dance in person by that point. And he said, you know, I'm really happy this worked out. And there's some ballets coming up this season that I'm thinking about you for this part and this part and this part. And they were all some soloist and principal roles. And I hadn't done a lot of that. You know, I'd done a little bit, but not much.
00:23:29
Speaker
I'd never done, you know, like a full on like pas de deux. You know, I'd done some partnering parts, but I hadn't done an actual like pas de deux. Anyway, so he kind of threw me into that stuff.
00:23:40
Speaker
And again, it was the perfect thing. Going to P&B when I did and starting out in the core in a large company was perfect. And then kind of moving into the next phase of my development as a dancer in a small company was also perfect because i had not had any handholding when I was in the core. Yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
And I needed it. I needed a lot of direction. And Miko was the best coach I have ever had. he is a phenomenal coach.
00:24:15
Speaker
He also had artistic staff there who were phenomenal coaches. And they came from European backgrounds. They'd worked in European companies. I mean, of course, as had Miko, who'd been all around the world.
00:24:27
Speaker
And so their approach was less like what I was used to in terms of coaching. I thought, well, someone teaches you the steps and then you work on them until you know them and you can do them all. And that's that. But in Alberta Ballet, we were actually coached.
00:24:40
Speaker
And once we learned the steps, then we spent hours and weeks, not just nailing them, but dissecting them and making them nuanced.
00:24:52
Speaker
And I learned how to look at a role. I learned how to look at a character. oh my gosh. And they had the time for it because it was a smaller company and there were three artistic staff and maybe only like 23 dancers.
00:25:05
Speaker
So we had the time for it. We also performed so much. We were a touring company. And so, you know, PNB had performed a lot, but with Alberta Ballet, we were on the road all the time.
00:25:19
Speaker
And so the performances we did, you know, in some large theaters in big cities, but also we did a ton of them in little tiny theaters, in little tiny towns out in rural Canada. in Nowheresville.
00:25:31
Speaker
But that was great because I was getting on stage night after night after night without a lot of prep in that theater. So, you know, we could roll into that town that afternoon. We'd do one run through and then go get your makeup on and do your show.
00:25:45
Speaker
So I got really comfortable with being ready all the time. And also you don't have time to get nervous. You don't have time to freak out about, my big part is coming up tomorrow night, my premiere, you know, just got to do it. The stakes felt lower when you're in just like one little tiny theater after the, sometimes there were auditoriums, like high school auditoriums. And again, it was like the perfect thing. And so I got really comfortable in my skin Carrying those kinds of parts and carrying those kinds of ballets.
00:26:17
Speaker
was a really, really perfect part of my career. And from there, what was your next step? I was there for three years, three seasons.
Seeking New Experiences Beyond Alberta Ballet
00:26:25
Speaker
And then Nico was also moving on to his next thing. He became the director of Boston Ballet. And as soon as he an announced to us that the company that he was moving to Boston Ballet,
00:26:36
Speaker
I thought, okay, that's my sign. It's my time to go too. Because like I said, he was the most amazing coach. He was an incredible director. i felt so connected with him as a dancer.
00:26:47
Speaker
And I didn't really wanna stay and see who was gonna come and take over. And also to be honest, I did not like living in Canada. I liked Canada. Canada was great. I didn't like living in Calgary, particularly.
00:26:58
Speaker
Like the winters were so brutal and i wasn't like, oh, I love it here so much. And you're a New Yorker, like you didn't come from yeah the South either. So that's a lot to say. Exactly. Exactly. Right. I had some tough winters in New York, so I was used to that. But the Canadian winter was even more. Oh, my gosh. I remember the first time it hit, you know, like a solid several weeks of way below freezing every day. And like, yeah, I'm sure you know this from the Midwest. You guys and your nose hairs freeze.
00:27:24
Speaker
yeah The first time i experienced that, I was like, oh, my gosh, this crazy. This is insanity. How does anyone deal with it? It's brutal. Yeah. Yeah. So again, I started that whole audition process.
00:27:36
Speaker
This time I cast my net really wide from the beginning. i think I had DVDs by now. I think technology had advanced to DVDs and I sent them out and Miko was great. He really helped me. He has so many connections and he talked to a lot of directors and you know gave me recommendations and so on.
00:27:52
Speaker
But it was right after 9-11. It was the season. And a lot of companies were kind of in lock, not locked down like COVID lockdown, but sort of in this like psychological freeze, not knowing like what's going to happen with our economy. And, you know, just like our whole national psyche was suddenly changed and the performing arts suffered for that.
00:28:16
Speaker
And a lot of companies weren't hiring, got a lot of great feedback and so on, but they either weren't hiring or I know this is kind of a I don't know, boohoo problem to have, but a lot of them did say we only have core positions. And at that point, I didn't want to go back and take a core position. So a couple of them said, well, I'd love to hire you, but we don't have a soloist right now. And, you know, I don't want to offer you a core position or apprentice
Joining Oregon Ballet Theatre
00:28:41
Speaker
or anything like that. So I ended up moving back to New York and thank heavens, my parents have never ever told my sister or I, you know, once you're out of the house, you're out of the house.
00:28:51
Speaker
My mom in particular was always like, just come back home. Just come home. That's fine. It's always home. And New York, what better place to be a freelance dancer than New York City, right? So I did. I packed up my Calgary stuff and i moved back to New York. I moved back to my parents' apartment.
00:29:06
Speaker
And I spent a year freelancing. And that's when I did the Suzanne Farrell company. i think it was only like six or eight weeks of a season that year, but I did that that was fantastic. And I spent the rest of that season taking classes all over town. studied a lot with David Howard and I worked with some independent choreographers. I did a whole bunch of Nutcracker gigs.
00:29:26
Speaker
And i actually went back and I guested with Alberta Ballet for a couple of programs, but i I did start to feel like, okay, so I tried out this freelancing thing and It's great. It has its pros. There's things about it that I really am enjoying, but I also want the stability and kind of the structure of a company.
00:29:44
Speaker
Amazing turn of fate. I was walking down Broadway one day and I saw a man walking towards me. And I knew he looked familiar, but I couldn't place him. i couldn't place the face, but we stopped and he said, oh, hi, Gavin. And I realized right away that it was Christopher Stoll, who is the son of Kent Stoll and Francia Russell, who had been my bosses in my very first company in Seattle.
00:30:10
Speaker
And I knew him just so slightly because he would, you know, come and visit them, of course, in Seattle and take class with PNB. And I mean, maybe we'd said hi a few times. So he probably knew me better than I knew him.
00:30:23
Speaker
And we stood there chatting and i asked what he was up to. He asked what I was up to. and And he said that he was in the running for to be the director of Oregon Ballet Theater.
00:30:33
Speaker
So they were in the hiring process. I guess he was like one of the short list candidates. And he said, yeah, well, if I get the job, I'm probably going to be looking for some dancers. So let's stay in touch. That was in the fall, I think of that year. And I kind of forgot about it.
00:30:46
Speaker
And then in the winter, it was announced that he had gotten the job. And I can't remember now if I got in touch with him or if he got back in touch with me or how that all played out. But he ended up hiring me and I moved to Portland.
00:30:58
Speaker
It was in 2003 then. for that 2003, four season was my first one there. And what was that experience like going back into a company? And were you at this point, was it an unranked company as well?
00:31:12
Speaker
It was first, it was unranked. And by now I was sort of experienced enough to know what questions to ask. And so before I just said, yes, job, great, I'll take it. We did have some conversations and he saw my resume. He knew what I danced and had seen my videos and so on. And so we talked about what I was looking for in this next, my third company.
00:31:30
Speaker
and the kind of things I was hoping to dance. And he told me about the ballets that were were planned for the coming season and the parts he envisioned me for, and they all sounded great. And I said, well, you know, I'm a little nervous about heading into another unranked company. And I think he sort of said, well, it's, you know, technically unranked, but it's not my desire to keep it that way always. And i don't intend to have it be a completely sort of you know, socialist type of company where we're all we're all the same. I really do envision a company where without contractual rankings, we do have our different places that we fit in.
00:32:05
Speaker
And so that sounded great. And I just, I trusted him right away. i just got this really great feeling from Christopher. And my gut turned out to be right. I know I said a minute ago that Miko was the best coach ever had, but Christopher and him are probably on par. He was just phenomenal at seeing what a dancer, what was possible for them, what they're capable of.
00:32:26
Speaker
and ah drawing it out of them and helping them fulfill it. And i loved working with Christopher. He was ah fabulous teacher. He taught company class and I just, I have notebooks full of his classes because they were just so good.
00:32:38
Speaker
And the way he taught and coached, it was like really empowering. You know, he had the gift, or hat I'm sure still does, the gift of giving a dancer a sense of their own power.
00:32:49
Speaker
I felt trusted right away, which was really exciting. Feeling that trust And plus I had experience by that point. And then seeing this guy who was, you know, danced all these incredible parts and ballets and those like to also trust me was, it made me feel like I could give even more. It was just the perfect way to to finish out my career. we did a whole wide range of ballets and great choreographers that I never imagined I would. it was a wonderful time.
00:33:21
Speaker
Do you have a favorite role that you danced during your career? That is such a hard question. The Balanchine ballets are all all my favorite ones. And so those, and of the Balanchine ballets, of all the ones I've danced, I will say that Concerto Barocco is probably my favorite. It was in the core of it when I was in Pisset when I was ballet. And then I did one of the principles when I was in OBT.
00:33:49
Speaker
And every single time i performed that ballet, it was just heaven. It was like being out of body. And in fact, during one of my performances, when I was doing the second movement, pas de deux,
00:34:01
Speaker
I remember actually getting so distracted by how gorgeous the music was. i did forget what I was doing and where I was. it was that significant. And my partner, he was so sensitive. He knew what had happened. I was like so just taken away. and he kind of like...
00:34:21
Speaker
nudged me into the next step or whatever and i you know figured out but that's just how transcendent it is to dance so that and then serenade too your soul just wants to explode doing that ballet and i mean i did so many different parts in serenade too i was in the core i was one of the demi soloists and i did the waltz girl principal part and so i i feel like i've been around those ballets and i can just yeah inhabit them so those would be my favorite ballets if i could dance any ballets again i would pick those Do you have a ballet that was the most challenging or a role that was the most challenging for you?
00:34:55
Speaker
Interestingly, I think the hardest ballet i've ever danced was another one, another Balanchine ballet, Allegra Briant. I did the core, one of the core parts, or they're not really, I mean, it's the four core women, so it's really more like they're really soloists for my workshop performance at SAB and loved it. You know, the music is, again, it's like so fabulous.
00:35:12
Speaker
And then when I was in Alberta ballet, I did the principal part, and And it is just so hard. It's gorgeous. And it's like thrilling, but it is so hard. I mean, technically super hard and like stamina energy wise, super hard. I mean, every single time I had to do it, I felt like I was going to die and had trouble technically because it was just so physically hard.
00:35:35
Speaker
So unfortunately, that kind of tinged my memories of it. I still love it, but that might have been the biggest challenge. yeah How did you know when it was time to retire from performing?
Retirement Challenges: Physical and Emotional
00:35:47
Speaker
You know, it was, i think it was an evolution. i think I knew it. deep down before I acknowledged it. And the last like two, two and a half years of my career, I did start to have a lot of nagging injuries. I had two ankle surgeries.
00:36:07
Speaker
The first one was actually right like a year after I joined OBT, I had an ankle surgery and that one healed up just fine, no problem. Like I was 100% back. But then 2008, I had a really weird, unusual ankle injury. it was like sudden thing. it happened when I was taking class on stage.
00:36:26
Speaker
My retinaculum like popped, detached off of my ankle bone. And it was like awful. And then I did like immediate surgery. i was in ah like a plaster cast for like a month. Coming back from that one was the first time where I felt any doubt in my physical ability to do it, to dance.
00:36:44
Speaker
That was the first time in my life I'd felt that sort of, oh wait, I do feel weak. And that was scary. And I think that also did a number on my mental strength.
00:36:56
Speaker
It was like the first chip in my feeling of invincibility and ability to bounce back. I'd always felt really physically strong. And that was the first time I didn't. So I think that was when i started to think about, oh my gosh, yeah, those things people tell you about, you're not going to dance forever. It's actually true.
00:37:14
Speaker
but So that just sort of evolved. it was like a little seed that was planted. And I did come back from that second ankle surgery and I you know resumed doing lots of parts and things and danced a bunch.
00:37:27
Speaker
But then during the two thousand eight nine season, when I did come back, the pain never fully went away from that ankle. Other sort of auxiliary problems sprung up from that. Like I got ah a hamstring tear because of my ankle injury.
00:37:43
Speaker
I started to have neck problems. There was always something. And the little somethings that start to nag, they're always nagging you as a dancer. it seemed like they never really went away.
00:37:55
Speaker
You know, an injury would never really heal. And I realized I'm spending more time and more energy and more focus on maintaining my body and just being ready to dance than I am on what I'm dancing.
00:38:09
Speaker
The balance was getting off. And there were so many mornings when I went to the studio to take company class and I stood there thinking, I don't know if I can do this.
00:38:20
Speaker
I don't know if I have the mental energy to summon up the physical energy again and again and again. And inevitably, you know, you get rolling, you get through your day and I get through it.
00:38:34
Speaker
But those moments of like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can do this or do I want to do this? they became more and more frequent.
00:38:45
Speaker
So I think I knew it was coming. And I also started to have these like almost fantasies of not having to dance anymore. Isn't that weird?
00:38:56
Speaker
No, I had the same thing. Did you? You know, when you're younger, are these fantasies of dancing and doing this part in that ballet, dah, dah, dah. And I started to like, think, wow, it would be incredible to not have to put pointe shoes on today.
00:39:10
Speaker
it would be incredible to go and sit at a desk today instead of at the studio at the bar. Yeah. so it was, you know, Christopher and I at that meeting and, and he said, let's think about the future. And, and I said, yeah, good idea. And so then I didn't feel sad.
00:39:30
Speaker
i was so relieved knowing, yeah, it was a relief. I feel like sometimes, you know, it's like that knowing that you're, you've made that choice is such a relief. Did you keep feeling that after you retired or did you have the identity crisis? What was that experience for you?
Life After Dance: Teaching and Community
00:39:48
Speaker
A little bit of both, honestly. Yeah, the first couple years afterwards, I stayed really involved with OBT. I was teaching in the school a lot and I was the children's rehearsal director. So I was like coaching all the kids for Nutcracker and stuff.
00:40:00
Speaker
Oh, and I did some administrative work too for the like artistic support. So was really heavily involved and my body wasn't totally done dancing. It was done dancing like that much and that high level, but I still took class every day for like two years.
00:40:15
Speaker
And I still, I mean, took a class on point even. i felt like this tearing, like i yearning, you know, like I want to be able to still do it, but just not like that. And it was really conflicting and really hard. Honestly, it was really hard, but that's like, I wanted it, but I didn't want it.
00:40:35
Speaker
You know, that awful conflict. Yeah. Then, you know, gradually my body stopped wanting to do it so badly. Cause like, you know, i stopped taking all of class and i stopped taking class every day.
00:40:48
Speaker
And then one day i was still you know trying to do center on point and I was put my shoes on and I was like do some releves and I just suddenly felt like I didn't have it. I didn't have that. precision anymore on point. And I was like, well, I'm not going down that road of being that old lady still strapping on her pointe shoes, not really doing it very well. And people look and say, oh yeah, she used to be good.
00:41:09
Speaker
I was like, no way. My pride was too strong for that. so I was like, hey, no more pointe shoes, no more pointe work. I'll just take class, I'll do what I can. I'm only gonna what I feel I can still do well.
00:41:20
Speaker
you know Gradually that got to be less and less and it was okay. And then again, when I stopped making myself go to class every day, was this relief. And I thought, wait, why was I just making myself, was it just a point of pride?
00:41:35
Speaker
And yeah, when I was finally able to be like, well, why am I going to class every day when I don't have to and I don't want to? Okay, Gavin, like wake up. And so that was another relief.
00:41:47
Speaker
And I got more and more into other aspects of the ballet world. I got really passionate about teaching and the incredible coaching that I had had.
00:42:00
Speaker
really came back and I felt this strong desire to coach other people the way I had been and to teach other the people the way I had been taught.
00:42:12
Speaker
And then also to start to write about it. I'm not going to lie. I mean, sometimes it was a long time. Now I think I can sit and watch a performance and not urine to be on stage, but it was a long time before I could. And Now I can appreciate, but it's been 15 years.
00:42:25
Speaker
I mean, it didn't take me 15 years to be able to get to this point, but I would say for five or 10, almost begrudgingly watched performances because I just, I wanted to be able to do it.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah. I felt the same way. i I am seven years out and this is the first year that I felt like excited about scene performances. And I, made this challenge for myself to go see 12 live performances this year because I for so long didn't want to step foot in a performance. Or if I did go, like you said, I just would be watching it being like, oh, I want to do that.
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah. And for a while, I still thought I could. And now I feel like, no, I definitely couldn't. So I can just appreciate it more. Yeah. Yeah. Another aspect of that for me was when I was still grappling with those like feelings of resentment, I was hypercritical. I couldn't watch a show without being hypercritical.
00:43:15
Speaker
And then i was like, that's so unfair. I mean, that's so unfair. I don't need to be like tearing apart someone else's performance just because, you know, I want to be there instead. So I stepped away for a while.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah. I can really relate to that. Yeah. If you're enjoying this episode, then you're going to love the Brainy Ballerina Book Club. I have been an avid reader for as long as I can remember.
00:43:40
Speaker
i am fascinated by other stories, and I am always applying the lessons I learn in books to my own life, both personally and professionally. What started out as sharing my currently reading list on Instagram stories has since grown into a full-fledged book club with hundreds of members.
00:43:56
Speaker
Each month we dive into a new story thoughtfully chosen to inspire and challenge us with original ideas and experiences. Whether you are an avid reader or looking to get into the habit, the Brainy Ballerina Book Club welcomes you with open arms.
00:44:10
Speaker
It's free to join and there is no catch. Just a community of dance lovers who are eager to expand our knowledge, feed our souls, and make meaningful connections. Head on over to the show notes to join the book club today.
Writing a Memoir: Capturing Dance Memories
00:44:24
Speaker
So how did you decide to write a book? Your book, Being a Ballerina, we talked about a lot of the different aspects that you covered in your book in our conversation today. But it goes, you know, it's so personal, its so honest. And I'm just curious what compels you to write your story?
00:44:41
Speaker
You know, it was totally spontaneous. I had never... had any thought about writing anything my whole life. I mean, I was good in school. I did well in English and I didn't hate writing book reports, but my father is a writer and my mother was an editor.
00:44:59
Speaker
And so I come from that kind of like a literary family. And I love to read. I read, read, read so voraciously as a child, but I never entertained any notions of being a writer myself ever.
00:45:12
Speaker
So when I started to write, it was completely, yeah, it was completely spontaneous. I had retired just a few months before. And like I said, I was still heavily involved with OBT, and so i was on the premises every day.
00:45:24
Speaker
And I was teaching the school. And one day, i had finished teaching a school class, and I was walking out of the building, and I walked past the studio where the company was rehearsing. They were in the a rehearsal for the Rite of Spring, ah prediction that Christopher Stoll had choreographed, I think, the season before.
00:45:41
Speaker
And I had been in the original cast. So I stood there watching through the studio window, watching the dancers rehearse. And this amazingly vivid physical feeling of myself being in there just flooded over me.
00:45:58
Speaker
And it was like this weird deja, it's like a physical deja vu. i could feel being in there again, not just remember it. And I stood there watching them and I just had this incredibly intense feeling urge to write about it.
00:46:14
Speaker
I made a beeline home. I opened my computer and I sat there and I wrote this essay about the Rite of Spring. And that was it. I wrote it in one sitting and it's now a chapter in the book. It's called The Human Monolith.
00:46:28
Speaker
And it was the first one I wrote. That was that. it was it was a one-off. It wasn't like, okay, now I'm going to write my book. I still had no plans to write a book, let alone a memoir. But what did happen through writing that one essay about the Rite of Spring was I realized how many memories i had that were so vivid and I thought so poignant that were gonna be lost if I didn't take them out of my brain and put them somewhere safe. They need to be safe kept outside of my head.
00:47:00
Speaker
And I kind of vowed to myself, I'm not going to like sit down and force myself to try to think of something to write about. But every time I have a memory, like a nostalgia moment, I'm going to write it down.
00:47:12
Speaker
And so I started capturing these little, I call them snapshots, these little snippets of memories and of experiences. Every time one would come up, I would just write about it.
00:47:24
Speaker
And these were like one and two page little essays, sometimes less, sometimes a paragraph, sometimes two paragraphs, but nothing long, nothing significant. And I still had no plan to do anything with them. i just This was just for myself.
00:47:38
Speaker
This was just for me not wanting to forget about all of these things that I experienced and felt and seen and thought. And I just started collecting more and more of these. And you know my mom and dad, I gave them a few to read. And my mom said, well, my my dad too, they they said, you should you know collect these and you could string them together. They could be a book.
00:48:00
Speaker
And I was like, what? That's weird. I mean, you don't write a book that way. And they were like, well, there's no way to write a book. Just keep doing it and just keep in mind, this could be a really interesting way of depicting life as a dancer through these sort of snapshots.
00:48:18
Speaker
And I started to think about that and I thought, I actually really like that idea. I don't want to write my memoir from like, you know, day one to day whatever, but I think it would be kind of cool to approach it a memoir, like a collage or a quilt.
00:48:34
Speaker
These different patches put together that you have to step back in order to see the whole picture, to appreciate. I guess I've never really liked doing anything the normal way.
00:48:47
Speaker
And so then did start to think, huh, this is an idea and I like it and I'm going to just kind of go forward with it and see where it takes me. So at that point, I'd been capturing these little snapshots for a couple of years.
00:49:01
Speaker
I had not gone to college when I was dancing, so I just had my high school diploma. I wanted to know more about what I was doing. So I enrolled in a writing workshop in Portland with this wonderful um woman.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah, i was like a writer's workshop school there. And that year learned a lot about how to do a memoir in essay form, which is what I realized is what I was doing.
00:49:23
Speaker
The assignment every week was to write a two-page essay on her title prompt. She would just give us a title. And you had to go away and write two pages underneath that title. And I don't know if every single one I wrote in that workshop is now in the book, but most of them are because they were such good prompts.
00:49:41
Speaker
And each one took me down. a different, like they opened up a channel of my memory for me and opened up some channels of experiences. And I found I really liked working in that way. I really liked writing that way in these short format. I didn't have, I don't know, the stamina to do you know, conceive of a book as a whole. I needed to do it in these small chunks.
00:50:06
Speaker
I was collecting more and more and more. I started submitting individual snapshot essays to literary journals. and several of them got published in literary journals.
00:50:18
Speaker
And I then started to think, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try to create a cohesive whole through these snapshots and make it a book.
00:50:28
Speaker
And it was a long journey to get there, but eventually I did, which I still can't quite believe. In the book, you're writing mainly in third person. Is that how it was coming out when you were writing these essays?
00:50:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that is how it came out. The very first one, Human Monolith, is first person. But from there on, i just instinctively started writing third person.
00:50:54
Speaker
think the reason why my instinct was to do that was to protect myself and to enable me to be really honest and really forthright. while kind of hiding behind someone else's voice, you know, the eight year old, the 10 year old, she, the dancer, that enabled me to be completely honest, because it's sort of like being on stage, you put on a costume, and it's not really you anymore.
00:51:20
Speaker
You know, you can be completely free and honest and different and wild and loud or whatever, because you're on stage, you're in a costume, you're doing choreography. It's safe.
00:51:32
Speaker
Same thing with writing in a different voice. I can do whatever I want. I can say whatever I want. It's all factual. i mean, every single thing in this book is true and happened to me.
00:51:43
Speaker
But I could be that true because I was sort of pretending to be someone else, sort of pretending to tell someone else's story, even though it was only my own.
00:51:55
Speaker
Did any of the stories surprise you as they emerged? I don't think any of them actually surprised me, but what surprised was how many of them emerged, how many of them there were. It was just like the bottomless cup.
00:52:08
Speaker
There were more and more and more and more and more, and one would trigger another and one would, then that would lead another one. Then some of them are compilations. Like some of the sections, it's not like the one actual memory. it's sort of like a pastiche of different experiences that I did.
00:52:26
Speaker
artistically it took an artistic license and and put together to make a scene to make a scenario but that astounded me it was like limitless limitless material and we all have that everyone's life has that just stories are everywhere they're just in every single recess of your brain and your body and your experience that remains really fun and exciting for me every time i feel like i'm stuck with writing, I think, well, just there's stuff there.
00:52:56
Speaker
It's just hiding behind a corner right now. What do you hope the dancers who are reading your book are going to get out of it? Oh, so many things. Well, first of all, I hope they see themselves because like I said, I didn't have an aim when I started writing it other than like safeguard these memories.
00:53:14
Speaker
But then as I started to do it, I felt like I was speaking to every dancer and i was also speaking as every dancer. The commonality of our experiences is much greater than any of the differences.
00:53:29
Speaker
We all know that. All dancers know that. We have this bond. We have this common denominator that is in our souls. that is just undeniable. And yeah, the specifics of our experiences differ greatly.
00:53:44
Speaker
And, you know, how we approach our careers are all different. But at the bottom, deep within our souls, we're all the same. We all have that same flame and that same compulsion.
00:53:56
Speaker
And it's really hard to articulate. But that's why when you meet another dancer, you have that instant connection. You instantly feel like you know them, even if you don't. And as I was writing these experiences, I was like, this is everyone's experience.
00:54:10
Speaker
That's another reason why I wanted to keep going in the third person voice or the second person voice, because I wanted it to speak to everyone and not be not have the reader think that they're just reading Gavin's story. This isn't just Gavin, this is everyone's story.
00:54:27
Speaker
One of the early titles was the Everyday Ballerina. I wanted to impress upon readers that this is all of us. So I hope that readers get that feeling of like camaraderie.
00:54:40
Speaker
Going back to that feeling of camaraderie I felt in all the companies. It's so strong and it's so beautiful and it's so eternal. that I hope they feel that in reading this book, feeling a sense of oneness of all of us, our tribe, our tribalness.
00:54:57
Speaker
So that, and then I also hope they find parts of it funny and relatable, and maybe they can feel braver themselves to take risks in their careers and feel comforted that the traumas that I experienced and that I wrote about, that they're universal too, that they're not the only one
Resonating with Dancers Through Literature
00:55:17
Speaker
feeling those things. And struggling with those things and then the moments of triumph and the moments of glory and exaltation that we all feel too it's like it's fun to relate to someone else with that those feelings of ecstasy on stage you know it's fun to read someone else's feelings yes I know i know what you mean I know it
00:55:38
Speaker
And then for non-dancers to read it, i want them to get a real honest feeling for what it means to live the dancing life. Because the movies, the TV shows, the novels about ballet, i think do a huge disservice to the life of a dancer and to the meaning of being a dancer.
00:56:00
Speaker
So that's also part of my mission with this book and with other writing that I do in the future to portray a real, real, not just like a look at it, but to try to bring the reader right inside the body and the brain of the dancer without the sugarcoating, without the melodrama, without the ancillary, unrelated aspects.
00:56:23
Speaker
Yeah, I want them to feel like what it's like to be in a tutu on stage with the lights on you. I really felt that reading in your book. And I think that's why I loved it so much. Because reading it took me back to my experiences so much. And I think as you get farther away from your time in a company or performing, you start to gaslight yourself like, oh, the trauma wasn't really that bad or the highs weren't really that high. And then I'm reading your book and I'm like, no, it really was that special. And yeah, someone else gets it because you're in this kind of bubble for so long where you're with other dancers all day.
00:56:58
Speaker
That's what you do. And then all of a sudden your life is completely different and the majority of my time is not spent with other dancers. And so you just kind of start to forget that feeling. And it brought me back to that moment. And that was really very special when I was reading your book.
00:57:14
Speaker
I'm so glad to hear that. That means so much to me because reaching on that level, other dancers like you. Yeah. I mean, that's everything. I'm so glad.
New Projects and Collaborations
00:57:25
Speaker
What's next for you in your career? What do you have coming up?
00:57:27
Speaker
Wow. Well, more books, Lee. Yeah. I do have another book coming out. It's not a sequel, though I might do that in the future. This one is a collaboration with the dance photographer, Gene Chiavone. Gene was an ABT staff photographer for 20 years, and he retired right around 2020.
00:57:45
Speaker
And he's got, you know, thousands of images in his archives. In addition to photographing ABT for 20 years, he's photographed all these other companies around the world and galas and students.
00:57:57
Speaker
So he has this huge archive and realized that he wanted, just like me wanting to collect my memories of dancing, he wanted to do something more meaningful with his images and with the dancers that he had really connected with over those years than Something more meaningful and lasting than a coffee table book of pretty pictures or boxes full of prints or hard drives full of files.
00:58:22
Speaker
So he started thinking about a book that would tell the stories of the dancers that he'd photographed. Yeah, pairing their stories and words with their pictures. But, you know, he also realized right away he's not a writer. So he approached the University Press of Florida, who published my book, with his concept.
00:58:39
Speaker
And they put him in touch with me, thinking that... my writing might appeal to him and my approach. So he read my book and it did speak to him.
00:58:50
Speaker
We talked and he told me about his idea and I immediately loved it. I thought that really, that floats my boat. I love talking to dancers. I love finding out about their lives and our points of connection and our points of commonality. And yeah, again, like drawing out our common threads.
00:59:08
Speaker
And so we started working on this book two and a half years ago. It's called Infinite Steps, 33 Dancers and Their Lives in Ballet. And it's going to be published this coming March, 2026. And it's a compilation of 33 dancers, obviously. His photographs, a handful of photographs of each one. And i have written narrative essays about each dancer. So I interviewed each one.
00:59:30
Speaker
We had some great conversations and wrote their, it's like a mini biography, maybe. They're not long. I think the shortest one is like five, 600 words and the longest is maybe 2,500. they vary in length a little bit.
00:59:43
Speaker
We're portraying a full spectrum, the full spectrum of approaches to the ballet world. They're all ballet dancers, but some have left the ballet world now. Some are still actively performing.
00:59:56
Speaker
Some are long since retired. Some are just starting out in their careers. These are people that Gene photographed in ABT, in other companies, students who came to his his studio that he did photo shoots with, all sorts of people from all walks of life, all nationalities, all ages and approaches.
01:00:14
Speaker
I'm really excited about it. We worked really hard on this and it went through all sorts of different shapes before we homed in on the format that it's in right now. And I'm actually right now going through the kind of copyediting, proofreading,
01:00:29
Speaker
manuscript and I like it. I think it's going to be a lot lot of fun for people to look at. I can't wait. That sounds amazing. Last question for you. What piece of advice would you give to dancers who are pursuing their professional career?
01:00:42
Speaker
Oh, gosh.
Advice for Aspiring Dancers
01:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, i was thinking about this. i think, and I don't want this to sound like I'm discouraging, but if you want to pursue a professional career, you have to really, really want it.
01:00:54
Speaker
The phrase that comes to mind is, if you're on the fence about it, it's probably a no. It's everything. i mean, it's your life. And even when you leave it, it's still going to be your life because it just dancing for a living imprints itself on you so deeply in excellent, excellent ways.
01:01:12
Speaker
That yeah it's something you'll carry with you forever. so I think there is nothing better to do with your life than dance. There really is nothing better. If you wanna go for it, go for it. But what I mean by want is like more than want.
01:01:27
Speaker
I mean, it has to be like, this is what I'm doing, there's no question. And of course, you know there's so many factors and what's difficult is when someone feels that intensity about their intention, but other factors get in the way and it's unattainable. And that's what's like the tragedy.
01:01:44
Speaker
of the dance world and the ballet business. But my advice would be, if you are so really compelled to do it and you know it's go for it. And you will find a way to make it happen. I do firmly believe that there is a place out there for everyone who wants to dance professionally.
01:02:04
Speaker
It may not be the first place you look, may not be the second or third or fourth place you look, it may not happen today or this year, but if you really want it, there are so many ways you can do it that you will do it. Learned that myself when I was switching companies.
01:02:19
Speaker
The first places I looked and the first ones I thought I had a ah long list, but it wasn't long enough. And I had to cast my net wider. And then the things that ended up happening ended up being perfect.
01:02:31
Speaker
Don't limit yourself. Don't give yourself a short list. Cast your net really wide. Keep your mind really open and be ready for any opportunity. Then the other thing, this is like a little bit of regret that I have about my own career, is that I was scared scared to seek help. There are too many moments when I was afraid to seek help, either technically or professionally or artistically.
01:02:58
Speaker
My advice would be be, humble enough to ask for help and don't be afraid of how it's going to make you look if you are humble. Don't be afraid of how it's going to make you look to ask for help.
01:03:09
Speaker
Don't be afraid that someone's going to say, but you're supposed to know that or will reprimand you for not knowing already or for not already having that under your belt. It's okay. And if someone reacts that way, move on to somebody else because there were a lot of things I could have learned earlier if I had had that bravery and hadn't been so nervous that I was supposed to know it already.
01:03:32
Speaker
That's my advice. And then the rewards will just be infinite. Yeah, I love that. Gavin, this has been amazing. If anybody listening wants to learn more about you or your work, where can they find you? They can find me on my website, GavinLarson.com.
01:03:48
Speaker
And then I also, i write on Substack now. So you can follow me on Substack and get a few times a month. I send out some essays, stuff I'm working on. Sometimes just newsy things. Sometimes I experiment with different pieces of writing and I send them out, try it out with my Substack readers.
01:04:04
Speaker
I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, and I'm on LinkedIn, I'm all the social networks. Yeah, and then keep your eyes out for a new book coming out next year. Amazing. Thank you so much for this, Gavin. It was so wonderful to talk to you, and I really appreciate your time today.
01:04:17
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a really great conversation. Thanks, Caitlin.
01:04:25
Speaker
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01:04:37
Speaker
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01:04:50
Speaker
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