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65. Inside the Raising Leaders Program with Kerry Nicholls of San Francisco Ballet
143 Plays4 days ago
In this inspiring episode of The Brainy Ballerina Podcast, we sit down with Kerry Nicholls, Director of Artist Development at San Francisco Ballet, to explore the groundbreaking Raising Leaders program.
We dive deep into how the Raising Leaders program is transforming professional dancers into empowered leaders both on and off the stage. Kerry shares how dancers are selected, what the two-year curriculum entails, and how the program bridges the gap between performing and planning for a meaningful career after dance.
What You'll Learn in This Episode:
- Kerry’s personal dance journey and transition into leadership
- Why she believes it’s never too early for dancers to think about life after dance
- The mission behind the Raising Leaders program at San Francisco Ballet
- How this initiative supports dancers’ personal growth, professional development, and studio leadership
- The four major differences that set Raising Leaders apart from other dancer career development programs
- How partnerships with Stanford University and LinkedIn are elevating the program
- Actionable advice for dancers at companies with fewer resources to begin planning for their future
- The real-world leadership skills dancers aren’t always taught in the classroom, and how to build them
Whether you're a student, a professional dancer, or a company director, this episode will spark ideas about how to support longevity and leadership in the dance world.
Tune in to discover how dancers can thrive beyond the stage, starting now.
Connect with Kerry Nicholls:
San Francisco Ballet’s Website
Links and Resources:
✨APPLY to The Core Corps: thebrainyballerina.com/thecorecorps
Get your copy of the Intentional Career Handbook
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
This episode was brought to you by the Pivot Ball Change Network.
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Transcript
Introduction to Caitlin and the Brand New Ballerina Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
And so for us to say, we are saying that it's inevitable. Everybody will have to come off the stage at some point. How can we help you to not be scared of that?
00:00:12
Speaker
How can we help you be confident with that? And how can we help you know that you have got the skills in order to do the next stepping stone?
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Guest Introduction: Carrie Nichols and Her Dance Journey
00:00:56
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Carrie Nichols. Carrie is a senior creative coach supporting established artists and prominent leaders to fulfill their potential and is a regular choreographic mentor, judge, and career consultant for many international organizations including the Royal Ballet, the Juilliard School, English National Ballet, Rambert, and Netherlands Dance Theater.
00:01:23
Speaker
She is also currently the Director of Artistic Development at San Francisco Ballet And today we're here to chat all about the Raising Leaders program at San Francisco Ballet. But first, Keri, could you just give us a quick summary of your dance background?
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for having me. It's a a pleasure to be here. My background, I started as a ballroom dancer when I was, well, I think I got into it by osmosis, actually. My mother and father were ballroom champions. And so I just started dancing really early and was competing from three. And then I wanted to transition from that because I felt that my choreographic skills were coming to the fore. And there was a partner who was stopping me being choreographic and he was leading me around the floor and I felt restricted.
00:02:11
Speaker
So I went
Carrie's Consultancy and Role at San Francisco Ballet
00:02:13
Speaker
to ballet and loved the idea of having a little bit of autonomy, especially on the bar and the discipline and the rigor. of ballet, but I knew I hadn't quite got the body. I loved everything it bought me, but also starting at 14, I started too late.
00:02:27
Speaker
And I took my shoes off and got on the floor and did a Martha Graham class and felt at home. So I'm actually a modern dancer. I trained in modern dancing and always had a real desire for ballet and understood the and appreciated the rigor of that art form.
00:02:48
Speaker
I was a performer for quite a few years, really in a portfolio career with physical theatre, worked with Wayne McGregor and really explored the performing side. But very quickly, I got into teaching and it changed my world.
00:03:04
Speaker
Being able to make a difference to someone else in front of me instantly in a rehearsal or in a class was just the biggest thrill. And yeah, I found teaching or teaching found me very, very quickly.
00:03:18
Speaker
Through that, I also choreographed, but I also felt that I wasn't wanting to be a choreographer.
Overview of the Raising Leaders Program
00:03:23
Speaker
I wanted to use choreography to build everybody else's toolkit.
00:03:28
Speaker
So in a way, choreography was a vehicle. So I taught and I choreographed and Through the opportunity of of teaching people, when we had conversations outside of the studio, I realized that the next day when I went into the studio, they were braver somehow.
00:03:46
Speaker
They were more empowered. And I just thought there's something really interesting there in the psychology of meeting somebody as a person and then meeting them as a dancer in the space and how to join the two.
00:03:59
Speaker
And so I trained in psychology as well at the same time as continuing to teach. And so coaching really became a big thrill. I taught internationally everywhere and have taught at Juilliard, have taught at Rombert and at the Royal.
00:04:16
Speaker
and So i had a real portfolio in teaching. And then I moved into this creative coaching alongside and created my own company so that I could be a neutral voice for artists.
00:04:28
Speaker
whether they were in companies or whether they were freelance, but someone they could come and speak to to help map out their next steps. And that took off in a way that I just hadn't anticipated.
00:04:40
Speaker
And that evolved into also consultancy. So I've done a couple of consultancy projects, one being English National Ballet, which is where i met Nathalie. Tamara Ojo, the Artistic Director of San Francisco Ballet, and also Netherlands Dance Theatre and some smaller organisations. And so now i have really championed coaching and consultancy, as well as I went with Tamara to be her Associate Artistic Director at San Francisco Ballet and try to put all of this new progressive learning and how we want to meet artists today, yeah at the forefront of how we look after our artists.
00:05:16
Speaker
So that was a long answer, Caitlin, to the first question. That was amazing. It's a counter-narrative journey for sure. Can you tell us more about the Raising Leaders program? What inspired the creation of this program and what was the gap that you're trying to address?
00:05:33
Speaker
Yes. So Raising Leaders is one of our artist development initiatives that Tamara and i built. Tamara and I have a mutual passion for supporting dancers on, off and beyond the stage.
00:05:46
Speaker
And Raising Leaders is one of the ways in which we do that at San Francisco Ballet. And Raising leaders really what inspired the creation. i think Tamara and i identified a real lack of structured, ah strategic and sustained training for people who are wanting to get into leadership roles.
00:06:08
Speaker
But at the very beginning, it was Tamara that I highlighted this gap, I think from her own experience. And so she built a smaller iteration at English National Ballet.
00:06:19
Speaker
And when I joined her at English National Ballet, she said, will you take over this program? And I developed it slightly. And we saw the real value and the success of...
00:06:30
Speaker
that program there. And when we moved to San Francisco, Tamara's like, we need to be doing ah specific iteration for San Francisco Ballet. So I really observed and and responded to what I felt the needs were of those specific dancers. And we built the Raising Leaders Program.
00:06:47
Speaker
So it's really there as a response to upskill dancers and to offer confidence building opportunities as they find out their next steps after their performing life.
00:06:58
Speaker
Could you walk us through the structure of the program? How are dancers chosen for the program and how is it working to nurture these future leaders? Yeah, so lots of things there. So bring me back if I don't answer them all.
00:07:14
Speaker
The shape of the program, it's a two-year shape. and So it spans over two seasons for the dancers. And I talk about year one being a zoom a zoom out in a way.
00:07:27
Speaker
And the artists have opportunities to meet all of the directors of each of the departments and really look with a business lens into some of the decisions that we make as an organisation.
00:07:39
Speaker
They meet with Tamara, they meet with the executive director, Branislav Henselman. And they have monthly coaching with me to glue the whole experience together. They can sit into leadership team meetings, board meetings.
00:07:54
Speaker
It's observerships, it's training, it's mentoring, it's placements. It's got a real plethora of avenues that they can explore. Also with peer-to-peer support.
00:08:06
Speaker
So for this iteration, we have two fantastic artists. And they are enjoying being sparring partners and sounding boards for each other and giving each other a hug when it's needed and ah a little bit of a cheer lead when that's needed. So the peer-to-peer as well is is also really important.
Program Structure and Leadership Development
00:08:23
Speaker
And we have two incredibly valuable partnerships. We have Stanford University, the medical school, and LinkedIn. And they are partners for the program where they offer their resources.
00:08:35
Speaker
And it allows our dancers to go outside of our organization and have access to like-minded people, but with a specific perspective that's different to their own.
00:08:49
Speaker
And then they can bring that back. to San Francisco Ballet. So that's the first year. It's a real zoom out. It's a fact finding opportunity. And also for me to get to know them and see where their strengths are, their weaknesses, where their traits and their preferences lean to.
00:09:06
Speaker
And then season two, This is the zoom in section when hopefully they'll have identified an area that they're really excited about, that they might have thought, yeah, I've always been excited about this. It might be one that's completely a curveball.
00:09:21
Speaker
And we just allow them to zone in and dig deep into that one specific area within the organization and build their own independent project. So at the end of season two, there's real evidence of the skills that they've built throughout the two years.
00:09:38
Speaker
I think that was one part of your question, Caitlin. and What was your second part of the question? How were the dancers chosen? Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I think the first thing to say is that it's a voluntary program and it's open to dancers from every rank, which is a really beautiful thing. I think it's never too early to think about what might happen after the stage.
00:10:05
Speaker
So it's voluntary, open to all of the ranks. And it's what I think the dancers have really understood as well. It's not a retirement programme. we can be thinking about this earlier to take away some panic.
00:10:18
Speaker
ah So yeah it's never too early to think about what are the skills that I've got and which ones would I like to amplify at the same time as being a fantastic dancer in the space. So it's voluntary, but we asked the dancers to submit a written mission statement as to why they think that they should be given this opportunity, what they'd like to get out of it and where they might like to take it to And of course, for dancers who, some of them have probably never written anything, especially for the last 10 years, it's leaning into a particular skill that they're needing to sharpen again. And that's there for a specific reason.
00:10:56
Speaker
We're not choosing them on how good they are in the studio. It's not about casting. It's a very different skill set. So we ask them to write and then Tamar and I shortlist them And then we interview the shortlisted group.
00:11:12
Speaker
Now, we also the ones who haven't been shortlisted, i also meet with them and give them feedback because actually the learning for this program starts in the application process. And so we would like their application to be even stronger the next time round. So I give everybody feedback who's applied.
00:11:29
Speaker
And then the shortlisted handful, Tamara and I interview, and we have a series of questions where they haven't had chance to think about it and they're responding in the moment.
00:11:40
Speaker
But we have asked them to lead a six minute, seven minute presentation in response to a a question we've given them. So they have an opportunity to show us how they work when they're prepared and how they work when they haven't.
00:11:55
Speaker
It is informal apart from that one presentation moment. And then from there, we're shortlist again. Then tomorrow and I will have another conversation with the dancers and really check that they understand the juggling and the multitasking that comes alongside the being really big and bold and alert in the studio and also engaging with this in a really big way.
00:12:17
Speaker
It's demanding. So there's a real expectation management conversation that comes along and then we offer them the places. I think what we look for is really, you know, their leadership interests.
00:12:31
Speaker
what leadership qualities they already think that they possess, what they haven't got that they would like to, a wider knowledge of the arts sector and a potential direction they'd like to explore, but we don't hold them to it.
00:12:45
Speaker
Because I think that's the beauty as well of the programme is something might come out that they didn't expect and we'd want to be able to follow that. So that's how we choose. That's the process. And I think that's what we look for.
00:12:56
Speaker
You touched on this, but I am curious how the dancers are managing their demanding rehearsal schedule, performance schedule, and doing this program at the same time. How do they make that work?
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, they're superheroes. I mean, I think we absolutely look for that in the quality of when we choose. who we'd like to invest in, that there is a capacity for them to multitask, but also that they have a little bit of confidence to come forward and say, Kerry, right now, that part's too much, because I don't want to be taking away from where their priority is. And it's very clear there are active dancers.
00:13:32
Speaker
And that comes first, but actually some of the leadership work totally amplifies and elevates their work in the moment. So we want to open this space where it feels very 360, that it's not separated.
00:13:45
Speaker
But there are times where we have to lean into the separation. And this is also why we don't take too many. This iteration, we have two, because we want to work around the ebbs and flows of their season And I look and see when do they have a quieter moment?
00:14:02
Speaker
When can I really push this part of the program? And when do I have to just step back a little bit? So I'm also doing my fair share of being empathic around that. But I also ask them to be honest with me and say, when is it too much?
00:14:17
Speaker
Is this too early in the day? Is this too late in the day? Where are we at? And But these two are particularly driven. They're particularly organized and they're seeing the joy of having the work entwined.
00:14:30
Speaker
So I think they have a desire to keep it that way where they can. What are some of the ways you have seen this work they're doing come into the studio space and help them become better leaders within the company setting?
00:14:46
Speaker
Ah, great question. I think the two of them are in a very different places, but I've seen both of them excel in the studio through this opportunity.
00:14:57
Speaker
I see a sharpened awareness of quicker decision-making creatively, but also in the organization in the studio, how to organize themselves. I think what I've also seen is a real desire to mentor the ranks lower And I think the lower ranks have also, or the younger dancers also have, through this title of the program, have also come to approach them in a different way.
00:15:25
Speaker
So there's a real sense of their mentorship happening organically, which I think is beautiful. And I see it being reciprocated. It's a mutual relationship that's growing there.
00:15:38
Speaker
But I think also, after talking to the two of them, what I see is this program really gives them permission. It gives them permission to be proactive and to open some spaces. And then they might come and say to Tamara and I, oh, I've thought about this.
00:15:55
Speaker
I'd like to try this. But it's the permission to ask. And I think that wasn't there before. And so I think that confidence is gorgeous. I know Sasha DeSola, who is one of our fellows, principal dancer with the company, at Christmas, she
Impact of Leadership Training on Dancers' Careers
00:16:13
Speaker
organized a trip with a handful of her colleagues in their Nutcracker character costumes to go to a children's hospital and bring a little bit of nutcracker joy to the children there in the hospital. And it was something that she organized, that she was proactive about, that she got people together.
00:16:31
Speaker
And by her own admission, it was a small thing. I actually don't think it was. And especially within the structure and the schedule was not a small thing to kind of carve that space. so And she had the permission to say, I think this is a good thing to do.
00:16:45
Speaker
I would like to make that happen. I see that permission show up in lots of ways, and I think that's what the program is bringing to the space. Let's quickly pause this episode so I can share with you a brand new group mentorship program that I am launching this fall called The Core Core.
00:17:03
Speaker
We all know that your first years in a professional value company can be really intense. You're navigating casting, company politics, physical demands, and the pressure to prove yourself, often without much guidance.
00:17:16
Speaker
It's a lot, but you don't have to do this on your own. With the Core Core, you will find a space for support, community, and honest conversations that go beyond the bar. It's a 10-month group mentorship program designed for dancers in the first one to three years dancing with a pro company.
00:17:33
Speaker
We'll have monthly group calls where you can bring your issues to the table and we'll work through them together. You'll also hear from approachable for professionals in the industry who are open, honest, and here to share real insight.
00:17:45
Speaker
We all know that thriving in a company takes more than just talents. This new chapter deserves a strong start, and this program is more than just coaching. It's community. Whether you're unpacking in a new city or navigating your first nutcracker as a pro, you don't have to do it alone.
00:18:02
Speaker
Applications close August 22nd, so if you're interested in this program, head to the show notes to learn more and apply today. What do you think distinguishes this Raising Leaders program from other professional development initiatives that you've worked on globally?
00:18:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm hugely passionate about Raising Leaders, you may have noticed. So I really believe in the power of it and would love more artists to have the opportunity.
00:18:29
Speaker
i think there's a real high value What distinguishes raising leaders? I think there's four things. The one is, again, this sustained investment in the artists.
00:18:42
Speaker
There are some leadership experiences out there where you can go to a conference for four days or you can go for two weeks. But actually having a sustained investment opportunity and strategic intervention for two years that really leans into you, it's bespoke, it leans into your direction and your curiosities.
00:19:03
Speaker
I think that's really distinctive and quite a privilege. I think the two of them would actually say that as well. So it's sustained. And what allows for that within the two years is for their thinking to evolve.
00:19:16
Speaker
So you're not actually just meeting them where they first began. You can really work with them and move with them and learn with them over the two years and enjoy how they change through it.
00:19:28
Speaker
I think the two years and it being sustained is a big distinction. I think the other one is whilst they're actively dancing. It's really important I think, to overlap some of the chapters of your career, where we don't get to a point where, oh now I've finished.
00:19:47
Speaker
Now I've got to panic. Now I've got to retrain in something else. And now I've got to find my confidence in this. And now I'll start again, but we may have lost three years. So this opportunity of overlapping, so really working with active dancers is distinctive.
00:20:03
Speaker
And then I think our partnerships are quite fantastic. You know, Stanford University and what they bring alongside LinkedIn. And then we also have fantastic partners in Europe.
00:20:16
Speaker
The Royal Swedish Ballet and Dutch National Ballet have just opened their doors to Sasha. She's just been on a... three-week European placement and spent time in both companies.
00:20:27
Speaker
So she could really see a comparison between the US model and the European model, as well as just shadow the two artistic directors. And they generously opened their space to Sasha.
00:20:38
Speaker
So I think the rich partnerships are fantastic. Tamara's got an incredible network of people that she can contact. And so that's the real beauty of the program as well. And then I think the peer-to-peer learning.
00:20:50
Speaker
Having someone who's going through this experience with you is really valuable. I've i've heard that from the two of them. You know, that that's not just me saying it seems valuable. I think that is valuable. one thing that they really enjoy that in the company of 80 dancers that actually there's only one person who understands a little bit even though the two tracks understands what they're going through it yeah I think those four things make it quite specific to San Francisco Ballet.
00:21:19
Speaker
Can you share more about the partnerships with Stanford and LinkedIn how did you develop those and how do those really work? Yeah. So I was at one particular event at Stanford and I just happened to be sitting beside the director of the medical school via humanities. And she was talking about some of the initiatives that they were building there.
00:21:40
Speaker
And could I think about adding some resources in. And it was that brilliant moment that I just said well, I can do this if you can do this back.
00:21:50
Speaker
And I just said, we're thinking about this opportunity. And she said, this sounds fantastic. And through the conversations with through the building of the program, I just felt that we really aligned in terms of the initiatives we both wanted to do, but we were reaching different pools of people.
00:22:08
Speaker
But we really aligned values. And that seemed super exciting, but also that it was just meant to be. it was just a very gorgeous meeting of minds.
00:22:20
Speaker
And so i did do some work with the with the medical school and gave a couple of talks. And then it became a skill sharing. And so there is a fantastic executive coach that Sasha works with, who's based at Stanford University.
00:22:36
Speaker
And Julia, who's our other fellow, who's a soloist with the company, she has been tutored by Thomas Freeland, who is lecturer in persuasion and rhetoric.
00:22:47
Speaker
And so she's been really thinking about... her persuasive style in leadership.
Future Aspirations for Raising Leaders and Advice for Smaller Companies
00:22:54
Speaker
So they've had Zooms and they've also had one-to-one and gone to Stanford. Julia sat into a couple of lectures, which she said was fantastic to kind of get out of a professional situation and back into a really conventional learning space.
00:23:10
Speaker
She really enjoyed. So that's Stanford. But Rania Sanford, who's the executive coach, and Thomas Freeland have been instrumental to the support that they've given to Sasha and Julia.
00:23:21
Speaker
I have a lot of gratitude for them. And then at LinkedIn, again, I made contact with one ah woman who had heard about the program and she felt that it would be in align with some of the work she was doing to progress and develop some of her team.
00:23:35
Speaker
And again, we met and we felt that our values aligned and she's been really working with Sasha and Julia. They've gone off site to the LinkedIn headquarters. So really out of the normal familiar environment.
00:23:50
Speaker
And they've been working on narrative and storytelling within their own career and working on their profiles. So that's been quite specific, but they've also talked about culture there. I know the two of them really took away ah conversation that they had ah in terms of what LinkedIn is trying to do culturally for their for their organization.
00:24:13
Speaker
And Sasha and Julia thought, let's bring, let's beg and borrow and steal some of that into ours. So that's how those partnerships have started. And I think it's been mutually rewarding. So I'm hoping that they will continue.
00:24:29
Speaker
In your experience, what are some of the qualities or skills that dancers, ballet dancers in particular, are not really getting in their careers as dancers that they need to develop in order to become a leader in any space?
00:24:43
Speaker
Oh, good question. I think in one way, a real practical skill, I think, is public speaking. As I talked about within the application process, you know, a lot of the dancers are not used to writing and certainly not writing about their desires, but then actually standing up in a public arena and talking about their own ideas. They may be good at speaking, but it might be about the character that they're portraying, or it might be about a choreographic process they're part of.
00:25:11
Speaker
But when it's about bringing forward their own ideas, I don't think that's practiced. And this is really about opening opportunities to practice those skills.
00:25:23
Speaker
And the more you practice it, the more you sharpen it as a tool. And the more you get confident in it. Julia, if I can tell you a story, but I will come back to your question, Caitlin, but a story from Julia is at the very beginning of the program,
00:25:38
Speaker
We recorded video diaries of both Sasha and Julia and just to kind of see where they are their hopes for the program, where they felt they wanted to go, what they thought they wanted to end with so that we could use it as a comparison tool at the end of the project.
00:25:52
Speaker
And Julia spoke really well. I could tell she wasn't hugely comfortable, but she spoke beautifully. She was articulate, articulate. And at the end of the diary, we were kind of reflecting and she said, I just did not enjoy that. She said, I'm not good at speaking. I don't know when I last spoke in that kind of way, and especially in front of a camera.
00:26:12
Speaker
And she said that that was really hard. That was challenging. And so we talked about maybe that might be something we wanted to explore in the program, but let's not say anything too much. And then I thought maybe it's good to practice it in year one rather than leave it for season two.
00:26:28
Speaker
So ah couple of months ago, i asked her to present to the board at the beginning of a board meeting and to present eight minutes of a presentation of what she'd learned so far, what she'd learned about herself and what she'd like to take with her into season two.
00:26:43
Speaker
She prepared beautifully. She worked really hard at it. She also worked with Tom at Stanford and really thought about her narrative.
00:26:54
Speaker
And then she came to deliver and I was blown away. She, her content was bang on, but her delivery was exceptional.
00:27:07
Speaker
She read the room, everything you do as a dancer. She brought that to the front, she read the room, she could feel when actually she needed to speed up a little bit or when she needed to slow down, when she needed to repeat something.
00:27:19
Speaker
And she really commanded the space, but I felt that she was just really comfortable. And feedback afterwards from from the board to to me were was, oh, she was really natural out there, which I loved.
00:27:32
Speaker
But when I spoke to Julia afterwards and I said, you know, how was that for you? How did you feel that that went? She said, yeah, and I loved that. I enjoyed that so much.
00:27:42
Speaker
And for me, in nine months, to have made that shift from saying I don't speak to actually I enjoyed doing it Then we can talk about once you've enjoyed it, then we can talk about doing it more. And there might be sometimes you don't enjoy it, but you're still practicing it that she did. And that I think is just fantastic. So yes, from a classical point of view, written and verbal skills, I think is really good just from a practical point of view to keep sharpening because you may have to write an application for a job after you've performed. And if you haven't done it for 20 years, we've got a bit of a problem.
00:28:19
Speaker
So I think there's there's those that are practical skills. But I think, and especially in our today and in our industry, I think agile thinking and knowing how to pivot and not being scared of pivoting is ah really important skill to sharpen. I kind of feel that we we live around dichotomies in a way. you know We want to be really, really prepared, but also as a leader, you want to be spontaneous.
00:28:49
Speaker
You know, you want to be a considered, but you also want to be courageous. You know, you want to be knowledgeable, but we also quite like it when a leader says, I don't know that yet. And there's a little bit of humanity in there.
00:29:01
Speaker
And so sharpening this awareness of where you are in those scales of the dichotomies, I think is really pertinent to now. And that agile thinking with humanity, i would say would be ah beautiful mix of skills to to bring forward.
00:29:18
Speaker
What are your hopes for how this program is going to influence the culture of San Francisco Ballet, but also potentially the wider dance sector? Yeah, I mean, I think already, Caitlin, and also just to say, we this is our first iteration at San Francisco Ballet. So we just started this week, our season two.
00:29:40
Speaker
So we're in the middle of our first pilot, if you like. So there's a lot of learning for us still to do, but I see already the change. I feel it's already infectious. As I was saying before, I think seeing Sasha and Julia have permission to come and ask things.
00:29:58
Speaker
I think other people have also done that. you know Some artists have come to me and said, Kerry, I'm really not ready for the full program yet, but I'd really like to shadow this person in rehearsal directing.
00:30:13
Speaker
Is there an opportunity for me to do that for a week? I'm really excited about branding. Can I go and sit into a couple of those meetings? And where we can schedule independent, we open that because we don't want to curb interest and excitement.
00:30:30
Speaker
And sometimes we have to curb it ah because we just can't answer to all of them. But the fact that the dancers can come forward and ask... and feel that there's the space to ask, that's really infectious.
00:30:42
Speaker
And so I think that's happened because of the program already. And so, yeah, being bold enough to be proactive, I think that's beautiful. I think what also has...
00:30:54
Speaker
been happening through the program is this building of an ecology of forward thinking dancers and as we have more and more iterations you know I was kind of saying to Sasha and Julia yes it's a two-year program but i have a feeling that as a company we're going to already be emotionally attached I'm not sure how abrupt it will be at the end you know there may be other opportunities that come up so we continue to be invested in their next steps and rather than dropping them off a cliff right at the end again.
00:31:22
Speaker
That kind of is not the spirit or the value of the programme. So in a way, we want to be building an ecology for this peer-to-peer collaboration. When there's so many with AT dancers, they've got so many different interests.
00:31:37
Speaker
So we want to carve out what does leadership mean for them in their particular path? And then how can they cross That would be something that I would hope. So to continue with the bold permission and the proactiveness, and then to learn how to be in ecology, but collaborate together.
Encouraging Self-awareness and Career Exploration for Dancers
00:31:54
Speaker
think looking then at the wider sector, obviously we don't want to keep all of these leaders for ourselves. Yes, the program is about nurturing our dancers. We want to ah retain and nurture the talent that we have under our roof right now.
00:32:11
Speaker
But the idea is once they thought about transitioning from the stage, that they will go out into the sector. and that infectious energy will go out.
00:32:24
Speaker
But also it brings trained, up-skilled leaders to the fore who have already practiced some of their leadership qualities rather than getting a job in a really steep learning curve and practicing their leadership skills at the same time as being ah leader and delivering in a very exposed arena.
00:32:48
Speaker
So we're hoping that it brings competent leaders who are very clear about where we want the sector to go, but that it really does disseminate across the country and internationally.
00:33:00
Speaker
I think one big pull of this conversation, and this is also happening with partners in more Swedish and Dutch national, is this program is really there to normalize the conversation about retiring or about having a life outside of the stage.
00:33:19
Speaker
And from what I've seen through my experience coaching artists over the last 20 years, people are really scared to say, I think I'm about to give up because I think it will affect their roles.
00:33:32
Speaker
And I think it's perceived. I think that's inwardly perceived, but it's there. I don't see that from an external point of view, but that's what they feel inside. And so for us to say, we are saying that it's inevitable.
00:33:45
Speaker
Everybody will have to come off the stage at some point. How can we help you to not be scared of that? How can we help you be confident with that? And how can we help you know that you have got the skills in order to do the next stepping stone?
00:34:00
Speaker
And let's do it now. And whilst you know our two partners internationally open their doors, we're being really transparent about that conversation and also being transparent about some of the decisions that the organisations make. It's quite a brave thing to do to open your doors.
00:34:18
Speaker
But Companies are starting to do it. So I would love to see in the sector that we are just normalizing this conversation and we're equipping these dancers so that we don't lose them and their skill from a really rich industry.
00:34:37
Speaker
Can you talk about how a company with maybe less resources than a large company like San Francisco Ballet might implement a similar program for their dancers? Because I feel like there's so many companies that just don't have as much available to them, but that the dancers would still really benefit from this.
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I think the one thing I would say is start small, but start. I always say that, you know, that the hardest position is yeah in yoga is getting on the mat.
00:35:05
Speaker
And I really believe that. Let's just start. So what are the small but impactful things that could give you experiences for your dancers and I would say tap into the community you already have and ask partners and ask other organizations whether some of your dancers could come and sit into some meetings, whether they couldn't come and see rehearsals, just so that the dancers don't have just one experience at their fingertips, but it allows them to also be seen not as a dancer, but outside of the studio in a very different way. And I think doing that with people you don't know is sometimes really useful.
00:35:44
Speaker
So I'd say tap into community and then vice versa, open your doors to other people. More people that come into you, you have more inspiration to play with. So I think community and partnerships is huge.
00:35:58
Speaker
We got into this at the beginning of COVID. We all said we were going to do that more. And then we've kind of got to where we are and it's gone a little bit into survival mode. And i don't feel we're doing that as much as we could. So I would say let's share practice.
00:36:13
Speaker
Let's share resources.
Reflections on Raising Leaders' Success and Conclusion
00:36:15
Speaker
And even as simple as two day placement somewhere else could actually just tighten up a direction or a thought for an artist in terms of where they think they want to go next.
00:36:30
Speaker
I think that would be a main thing. I also see with working with Julia and and Sasha, I think reflection is really important. We spend a lot of time looking forward as dancers. It's the next thing. It's the next thing. It's the next thing.
00:36:45
Speaker
It's ambitious. And i love that. I mean, raising leaders is about looking forward. So I'm contradicting myself in a way. But I think it's really important to look back and reflect to find action within the reflection to find what is your next step to go forward.
00:37:02
Speaker
And so carving space for people to just pause and for dancers to say, what did I learn from that experience before I move forward?
00:37:14
Speaker
I think that is really helpful to see where they might want to organize some of that experience into what their next step could be. You know, we're we're really thinking about product. We're putting shows on. It's relentless in a gorgeous way if you have a privilege to have that schedule.
00:37:29
Speaker
So pausing and reflecting, but really encouraging reflection. So it's strategic, it's rigorous, but I think we can all do that a little bit more. There is so much dancers need to learn as they pursue a professional dance career.
00:37:44
Speaker
It can be completely overwhelming. Where do you even start? with your intention. To me, this is the first step in defining success on your terms.
00:37:55
Speaker
Once you have an intention for your career based on your core values, you can begin to hone in on a strategy to make your goals a reality. But without it, you will always feel out of alignment, out of control, and ultimately unfulfilled in your career.
00:38:10
Speaker
So how do you figure out what success means to you? with the Brainy Ballerina Intentional Career Handbook. This is not just your ordinary book. The Intentional Career Handbook walks you through it everything you need to think about as you embark on your dance career.
00:38:25
Speaker
With over 50 guided question prompts, you will dive deep into determining what really matters to you in a dance career based on your individual core values. By the end of this handbook, you will not only be crystal clear on your goals, but in the mindset you need to make it happen.
00:38:41
Speaker
Tap the link in the show notes to download your copy today and start pursuing your dance career with intention. Can you talk about on the flip side, maybe a dancer wants to be proactive and they don't necessarily have the company supports, what are some things that they could do on their own to build up their leadership skills and feel more comfortable with this transition?
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, there are actually a handful of dancers who already started doing some of that before the Raising Leaders program started. And we have said, we're not asking you to stop that.
00:39:15
Speaker
you You know, wherever you feel might be the next launchpad for you, go ahead and do that. So there is St. Mary's that have got a fantastic leap degree programme. So some of the dancers are going there to practice their analytical, creative thinking, critical thinking, writing skills there.
00:39:32
Speaker
We've got a couple of dancers who are doing evening courses at Stanford. So they're finding ways to supplement. And also there's some dancers who are now doing their Pilates training.
00:39:44
Speaker
And so they're doing that on the side. So they come and talk to me about where they feel they want to explore. And we try our best to be as lenient with the schedule as we can in order to do that.
00:39:56
Speaker
With Raising Leaders, we have more ownership of that. But yeah, a lot of the dancers come and speak to me with my role as director of artist development. And I think, again, that's the distinction of my role is that I don't support coaching and I don't teach them in the space and I don't rehearse.
00:40:15
Speaker
So the dancers come to me with questions about the longer journey. And so we really try and put together, okay, where's the end game? And then where's the three steps to get there?
00:40:28
Speaker
And then we really look at how can we make the first step happen? And a lot of dancers, because we're used to being ambitious, want to get to the end straight away. So just going to the first step and then we really kind of identify what would help them.
00:40:43
Speaker
And then I say, go out and do it. Sometimes I've looked at their applications before that it's gone forward. So there's real support that we can give outside of you know the company as well.
00:40:55
Speaker
If a dancer comes to you wanting to talk about their future career, what are some of the first questions that you might ask them to help them start thinking? Always start with what do you enjoy the most about what you do?
00:41:07
Speaker
Where is your real enjoyment out of the job that you do right now? What is the thing that you enjoy the most? And for some, it could be, you know, I love the connection with other people. I love expression. I love being in front of an audience or whatever that might be.
00:41:21
Speaker
So really homing in on, yeah, where does their enjoyment start from? Where's their seed? And then I probably would talk about what are their values and what are their skills that allow them to continue doing that? Because it's one thing to find out what you enjoy. It's another thing to find the skills to sustain it.
00:41:42
Speaker
I think this is also one thing that happens with the dancers that come and speak to me. They will say, oh, I got that because of luck or that person got it because of luck. And I find that really dangerous because it's a passive place to be.
00:41:59
Speaker
And actually you... You drive your own career. It doesn't happen to you. You drive it. And so as many reflective practices that we can do to highlight where is your skill and how can you position yourself, you have to put effort into the positioning.
00:42:17
Speaker
And so we talk about those things. so So I've gone off on a tangent just because I love thinking about these these artists that we have. But, yeah, I think it's right. Let's start with the enjoyment. Let's find out what are the skills that you have to help you enjoy it.
00:42:32
Speaker
But then I think crucially, i also ask what are the things that you you think or you perceive that you're not good at? What are the things that you avoid? And why is that? Because actually, what we'd like to do is bring those weaknesses stronger.
00:42:49
Speaker
But also, we want to quash that as an idea that actually maybe you're just not practiced in that right now. It's not that you're not good at it. And so how many spaces that can we build for you to practice that?
00:43:02
Speaker
I think those are probably three of my starting points. What has been maybe the most surprising or rewarding part of implementing this program for you? I'm really passionate about artist development.
00:43:16
Speaker
So having a space and for Tamara to carve the space and believe in this work, that's been so rewarding. And for her to trust the space and to trust me to take it forward, I think has been personally hugely rewarding and a real privilege.
00:43:33
Speaker
To have the futures of these talented dancers in front of you and to be able to make an impact, that's my life's work. So I think that is it' fantastic from a personal point of view.
00:43:46
Speaker
I think something that was surprising for me is when we got to San Francisco Ballet and Tamara and I shared the program, I thought it would take longer for the dancers to understand the value of the program, but to also trust the space. Like I said before about normalizing the conversation, that they might kind of think, oh, I don't think I'm let somebody else do it for the first two years and then let's see how it goes.
00:44:12
Speaker
Which I wouldn't have blamed them, actually. I and I just turned up, and then we just put this program forward. There was not a lot of evidence for them to lean into. And the first application round had so many applications.
00:44:26
Speaker
And... Across the ranks, we had an apprentice apply with a principal apply. And literally, we had applications from every single rank. And that for me was hugely surprising that they trusted the space instantly, that they were curious about the program, but there was an appetite for it.
00:44:46
Speaker
And that curiosity was was fantastic to feel from the get go. So that was a real surprise. Okay, last question that I love to ask my guests.
00:44:58
Speaker
If you had to give dancers one piece of advice based on all that you have learned from your career, what would you tell them? Oh, Caitlin, you see, this is where I bend the rules because, you know, one thing's challenging.
00:45:10
Speaker
I think one way is, ah like I said before, you know, you drive your own career. Don't believe in luck. Put in the effort. Be intentional. Be deliberate. I think that's one thing, but I've spoken about that. So I'm i'm going to take another lifeline.
00:45:22
Speaker
yeah I always think about my son, actually. When I brought up my son, learned this at the same time as he learned it, and I was quite a few years older. We're both introverts.
00:45:33
Speaker
And coming from an introvert place, I you also procrastinate, which then really helps me into a place of imposter syndrome. It's a really bad, vicious circle.
00:45:45
Speaker
And so we coined this phrase, which was, show your hand. that actually when he went to school, if a school would say, I'd like a volunteer for this, you just put up your hand and you think about it afterwards.
00:45:58
Speaker
So you put yourself in the ring and you're there. And then if you get chosen, then you can think about, oh my God, have I got the skill? And so I practiced this with him. And I think this place of...
00:46:10
Speaker
For me, what I need to do is not analyze so much at the beginning, is actually just trust the space and trust the opportunity you've been given, step into it, and then amplify the skills that you have already for that.
00:46:26
Speaker
And if you don't have the skills, it's a brilliant opportunity to learn and find them out. So that, I think, show your hand and step into it is a brilliant action that's really helped me that I'd have liked to have learned a little bit sooner.
00:46:40
Speaker
And I also think, you know, Tamara was incredible when she said to me, you're coming to San Francisco Ballet with me. And You know, I think within a day I said yes. A week later, if i if I'd have said, oh, can i have a week to think about it? I may have talked myself out of it, thinking there was going to be somebody better than me to do it.
00:46:59
Speaker
Or actually, I didn't have that skill, so maybe I better not. Actually, I'm going to think about what the skills I do have and bring that to the fore, rather than bringing the weaker skills further forward.
00:47:10
Speaker
Show your hand and be intentional and deliberate by putting in effort. Okay, so this has been so inspiring. I have learned so much from you, Keri. If anybody listening wants to learn more about your work or about the Raising Leaders program, where can they find you?
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, so if they want to find any more information about the Raising Leaders program, they can go to the San Francisco Ballet website. and also go to the artist development pages.
00:47:37
Speaker
We're doing quite a lot on artist development anyway. I would encourage people to go and have a little search around there anyway. We're doing quite a lot, not just on leadership. And they can email me there at San Francisco Ballet as well.
00:47:51
Speaker
And then if they want to learn more about my coaching and the work that I'm doing, they can visit my website at kerrie at kerrynichols.com. Perfect. Thank you so much for this, Carrie. This was really wonderful and I appreciate all of your time.
00:48:04
Speaker
It's been an absolute pleasure, Caitlin. Thank you so much for allowing me to talk about my passion with you.
00:48:12
Speaker
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00:48:24
Speaker
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00:48:40
Speaker
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