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66. The Future of Dance Education with Dance Device Lab Founder Brandon Cournay
204 Plays19 days ago
In this week’s inspiring episode, I’m joined by Brooklyn-based creative leader and founder of Dance Device Lab, Brandon Cournay. From his unexpected start in a small-town Michigan dance studio to earning a spot at Juilliard and building a career as a professional dancer, choreographer, rehearsal director, executive director and business owner, Brandon shares his multifaceted journey through the dance world.
Key “Pointes” in this Episode
🩰How a musical theater camp unexpectedly launched his dance career
🩰The unique training environment of his childhood studio with over 100 boys
🩰His path to Juilliard and how it reshaped his perspective on dance and artistry
🩰The realities of freelancing in New York and how versatility leads to more opportunities
🩰The mission behind Dance Device Lab and how it empowers dancers nationwide
🩰Why building community and being a kind, versatile human matters as much as technique
🩰Practical advice for young dancers: diversifying skills, exploring life outside the studio, and being a dancer AND something
Brandon also dives into his teaching philosophy, nonprofit leadership insights, and the importance of making live performance more engaging and accessible for today’s audiences.
Connect with Brandon:
WEBSITE: brandoncournay.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/brandon_cournay
DANCE DEVICE LAB WEBSITE: dancedevicelab.com
Links and Resources:
Visit The Ballet Help Desk: https://ballethelpdesk.com/
Get 20% off your first order of ALOHA protein bars: https://aloha.com/BRAINYBALLERINA
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
The Importance of Being Nice Over Talent
00:00:00
Speaker
people always ask, like how can I be a professional dancer? What's the most important thing? And I'm like, as someone behind the table, i don't care if you're good, because there's a thousand great people out there. You can be the best dancer in the room.
00:00:13
Speaker
If you're not a nice person, i' not working with you. Because I'd rather take another good person or a less good person or however you want to define that talent or that skill.
00:00:24
Speaker
I would rather work with someone that shows up and is professional and is a good, kind person and human. That is what's going to make you ah professional dancer.
00:00:36
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:52
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Brandon's Dance Journey Begins
00:01:10
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina Podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Brandon Corning. Brandon is a Brooklyn-based multi-hyphenate creative leader and the founder of Dance Device Lab, which is a platform that produces student-focused, interactive, and engaging dance workshops, conventions, seminars, and performance events for performing arts schools nationwide.
00:01:33
Speaker
Brandon, I have so many questions to ask you today about all of your experience, but I want to start at the beginning and hear Why did you take your very first dance class? Yeah, it's nice to be here, Caitlin. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat.
00:01:45
Speaker
Why did I take my first dance class? Well, it was kind of thrown upon me. I was doing a musical theater camp in school. I was in the fourth or fifth grade. It was an invite-only musical theater camp, maybe like 30 kids.
00:01:58
Speaker
So I stayed after school. We did this musical. I was not inclined in any of that. It just was a thing that happened. And the choreographer for that Yeah.
00:02:09
Speaker
a i think you should come take dance class and come to find out she owned the dance studio down the road so who knows if she saw a sort of like innate talent or interest or spark in me or she just wanted another boy at her dance studio or something, but ah it kind of fell. I, you know, I had tried everything growing up.
00:02:27
Speaker
I cried my way through t-ball. i I did all the sports. I can't swim. I like choke in the shower. Like I just, I couldn't do anything. This kind of fell in my lap and that experience, you know, I did say yes. My mom did take me to take the all boys jazz class, you know, at the dance studio in a small town in Michigan and it snowballed into an entire life from there. So it's been a really fun journey.
00:02:52
Speaker
Can you talk more about what your training was like growing up? Yeah. So I grew up at a you would describe it as a competition studio, but it wasn't necessarily a competition studio. We were super not competition focused, but we lived in that world. We did a lot more dance conventions. you know, I started in the recreational program. i went to a unique studio where I joke that my teacher wanted to get another boy over there, but we had about over a hundred boys at my dance studio growing in this little small town. Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:19
Speaker
So it was a very safe and sort of welcoming experience to be a male dancer. And I didn't really realize that it was so not like that until, you know, i got older, you would start connecting with other people.
00:03:31
Speaker
I took all boys classes because we had so many boys for a couple of years. And
From Michigan to Juilliard
00:03:35
Speaker
then I started getting serious and I took ballet. Then I joined the competition team and we started traveling to conventions. But we were a very performance-based dance studio. We were trained in everything. We trained heavily in ballet and technique.
00:03:48
Speaker
Tap, hip hop, ballroom, sort of like an idea of modern, not necessarily like a full technique in any way. We were really big into musical theater, strength and conditioning. So, you know, we kind of had like a little like sampler platter of it all at my dance studio. And like I said, we were always going to conventions and we were always having guest teachers come to our studio.
00:04:08
Speaker
So we were like very, very versatile from the very beginning. We did like one dance of every style growing up. We weren't the studio that had like seven contemporary lyrical dances. like you had your one a year and then you have your other thing. So that was really instilled in us at a young age. And you said you're from Michigan?
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, I grew up outside of Detroit. Okay, me too. I'm from Rochester Hills. Wait, what? Yeah. No way. Where are you now? No, I'm in Wisconsin now. Yeah. Oh, nice.
00:04:35
Speaker
Yeah. grew up in Walt Lake. Whoa. Yeah. Oh, yes. It's so funny. Did you ever go to ABT Detroit? Yes. I feel like we were there together. oh my God. It's crazy.
00:04:50
Speaker
like As you were talking, I was like, me wait a second. Oh my gosh, that's so but I only did it once. So probably, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. hi Good to see you.
00:05:01
Speaker
um I mean, like, you know, there's only so many boys, so it's like easier to remember. But I was like, I really feel like I, as you're talking- That's hilarious. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah. yeah That was me.
00:05:13
Speaker
And that was you. world. Yeah. Okay. So from high school, how did you make your way to Juilliard for college? I was never a person or a dancer that had college on my mind. Like I said, we grew up, we were very heavily musical theater. We were very performance-based and I wasn't thinking of going to school. I really wanted to like dance for Disney or dance on a cruise ship and do more commercial style work. And my dance teacher said,
00:05:41
Speaker
you need to go to this audition. That's basically what happened. Her daughter had gone to the summer intensives at the Juilliard School for a couple of years. I happened to be doing the Grand Prix, America Grand Prix in Chicago my senior year. And it happened to be the same time Juilliard was having their Chicago auditions. And she was like, you just need to go to this. And I was like, okay, you just, I was very obedient. Like do what your dance teacher says.
00:06:04
Speaker
So I went, you know, and you just audition. And, you know, my mom was like, I have no idea what we're we doing here. It's like, but you do your ballet class. I didn't get cut. Modern class, you didn't get cut. I did my solo, which was to Bon Jovi's It's My Life, the techno remix. Like, what was I thinking? Like, didn't get cut.
00:06:21
Speaker
Had an interview. Like, it just was like, okay, this is weird. And in no world was I expecting a to get in, B to go. i had no college plan. This is the only school I auditioned for.
00:06:33
Speaker
and I mean that and just like school was not on my radar. And then I got a call and I got in and it's sort of like, well, you just, you can't not go. My world really flipped upside down when that happened. And I
Navigating a Dance Career During Recession
00:06:46
Speaker
i was brought into a whole new world of dance that i didn't even know existed and didn't have access to growing up. I'm incredibly lucky and incredibly fortunate. I've turned the corner of being the person that like school is the most important.
00:07:00
Speaker
thing for dancers to do because I can't imagine what what I would have been doing would have been fantastic and fulfilling, but I didn't even know what was possible until I went there. And I was really fortunate not only you to go to school, but to go to a school like Juilliard, which was really life-changing experience.
00:07:16
Speaker
Can you elaborate more on that experience and how Juilliard prepared you for your professional career? Yeah, I mean, I'll say Juilliard prepared me for the concert version of my professional career. It is a training program where they train equally in ballet and modern contemporary dance. And what opened up for me, how my lens opened up was grew up dancing. Yeah, we did the ABT summer intensives. We had nuggets of technique, but you know, I danced to songs with words and we danced at competition. So nothing was longer than two and a half minutes.
00:07:48
Speaker
I didn't even know who Martha Graham was. i didn't know who Cunningham was. i couldn't name a dance company to save my life. just didn't know any of that existed. So Juilliard, it was really hard for me for the first couple of years because I was really playing catch up. You know, a lot of my classmates went to New World School the Arts or UNCSA or Interlochen and they were like conservatory kids and jumped right in and they knew the Graham floor work by heart because they've been doing it since they were 12. And I was just like, why are we sitting on the floor for an hour? i have no idea what's going on.
00:08:19
Speaker
So it really was like a really abrupt adjustment for me. and once I kind of settled in, it took me about like two years to like get the fundamentals, to train my body and to like sort of reshape my scope of thinking and be able to like dive into the technique of it and dive into the artistry of it. And, you know, working with contemporary choreographers every year and making pieces that are 20 minutes long and working with young creators and working with People from all over the country and the world and different demographics and creative lives before that, it really illuminated me to what dance can do and what art is. And my exposure really broadened beyond my little Walled Lake version of dance. And it was really...
00:09:03
Speaker
Great. But I mean, in terms of preparing me for my career, all the commercial stuff I did, I actually like attest to my training growing up, my ballroom, my musical theater. you know, I wouldn't have done the Radio City Christmas Spectacular coming out of Juilliard if I hadn't done all of my musical theater and jazz and all of that in high school.
00:09:21
Speaker
Duilliard really trained me for dancing for the Mark Morris Dance Group and Kegwin and Company and all those experiences. So when you kind of combine those, i look back and I see how fortunate I am to have that sort of plethora of training.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah.
Advice for Aspiring Freelance Dancers
00:09:36
Speaker
From college, what was your transition like into your pro career? What was your very first pay job? Yeah, actually, i like reverted back to my old self. I graduated college in 2009, which was, I think, similar to what we're approaching now, but the depths of an economic recession and really...
00:09:55
Speaker
not great time, especially in the, you know, we talk about nonprofits and we had a really, really talented class that i graduated with. And I think three of us had a dance job. It was really hard to find work. I didn't grow up with money. I graduated and my parents were like, good luck out there. you know, like the second I graduated June 1st, I needed to start making money. And i actually went back and assisted on a dance convention.
00:10:19
Speaker
i knew I didn't have anything lined up and I knew that was great money. And what I loved about it was i could work on the weekends and I'd have all week. I was able to pay my rent And Monday through Thursday, i could do free workshops. I could be in studios with choreographers. I could be taking classes. The hard part of when people moved to New York is you realize you have to work. And then that creative time during the day, you can't really fit that in. And it's a really hard balance of trying to put those schedule puzzle pieces together.
00:10:48
Speaker
I was sort of like concert danced out a little bit too. I was like missing wearing my jazz shoes and like dancing hard and, and, you know, performing a bit. So going back to that convention world, it really scratched that itch for me. And it solved like a financial logistical thing and,
00:11:05
Speaker
was really a great choice. Actually, like a lot of people do it now. A lot of like college kids are out on the competition circuit doing the assisting, doing the judging. And when I did it, it was like not a thing. And I, was like a really great experience to go back.
00:11:18
Speaker
After that, things changed and the economy recovered. And I started dancing with a choreographer, Larry Kegwin, who met at Juilliard. He had choreographed a dance my senior year on my class.
00:11:30
Speaker
You know, it was that New York-y freelance experience of like, hey, I need a dancer. you know, I need to hire a few more. I loved working with you. Do you want to do this one project? And then that turned into eight years of a career and it all kind of just flowed nicely. What are your tips for dancers who are pursuing more of a freelance career like that? What would you say to a dancer who's starting out in that area?
00:11:52
Speaker
To be a successful freelancer, you really have to be versatile and you really have to be a good class taker. You know, I'd say, yes, the Mark Morris Dance Group, sometimes, Paul Taylor, sometimes.
00:12:04
Speaker
Some of these larger dance companies do have auditions, but the majority of freelance work is really, ah you like, don't love the word, but best way to describe it of like networking. It is building connections and building human connections with people. I think there's such a intimidation of someone leading a room and someone in a class.
00:12:22
Speaker
And the thing to remember is everyone is just human and it's energetic and it's creative and it's cyclical. And my biggest thing is to be versatile and to take class. You're going to get more jobs, more opportunities, meet more people, whether someone's taking class with you, whether they're leading the room, whether they're walking by the studio and observing because they're in the next class.
00:12:42
Speaker
The community is a network and you never really know where your next opportunity, next thing is going to come from. And just being in the world is my best advice for freelancers. No one knows you're out there if you're not out there.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah. Having built this really diverse career, how did you decide when it was time to take
Dance Highlights and Educational Resources
00:13:05
Speaker
different jobs? How did you kind of bounce around? Was that like fulfilling to you to be able to do all the different kinds of work that you had trained in? It's been incredibly fulfilling. Yeah, it's been the most rewarding thing of my entire career. You know, I didn't intentionally make those decisions. My sort of like internal creative barometer did. it was sort of like from my heart and not my headspace. head, i kind of just took what was in front of me a lot. This opportunity with Kegwin and company came up and I started dancing with them, but that was very part-time and very freelance. So I was able to go off and do a little commercial here and there or do an industrial and be in the theater world. So for about like eight years of my career, I had kind of been able to like make them both work.
00:13:45
Speaker
The one thing that I did consciously not do is i had started dancing with Mark Morris right out of college. He has two big works that require more people than are in the company. So they hire in supplementary dancers, the hard nut and L'Alegro.
00:14:00
Speaker
And had started doing those out of college. I had done one of Mark's pieces my senior year, Gloria, and that kind of led me to start dancing with him. But I started dancing with him in 2010 and I didn't join full-time until 2017. Done these things on and off. He'd had multiple auditions. There was like a good vibe. And the one sort of decision I made was to not dance full time until 2017 when I turned 29, 30. And I was looking for like a little more stability. And and that that sort of freelance hustle was really wearing on me. But I knew, going to say like roughly during my 20s, that I was really
00:14:39
Speaker
fueled by doing many things and being able to piece those things together. And I knew if i had an opportunity to dance full time, I would have to commit to that for my career. And I wasn't ready for that. I really wanted to do the commercial work, the TV work, the concert work, the teaching work. I can only attest that to from the way I was trained.
00:14:57
Speaker
And the way that I experienced all these pieces throughout my journey up until that point, i was like I'd always done a lot. and I was curious to sort of do a little bit professionally and like have that amalgam of experiences.
00:15:10
Speaker
What has been one of the big highlights? of your time as a performer? I will say Dancing Marks L'Alegro. It's really a master work in the defining sense of that word. it is a life-changing experience for the audience. You know, it's 26 dancers. It's a full orchestra.
00:15:30
Speaker
It's a two-hour long show. It's this feeling of being a part of something that's bigger than you. And I got to perform that so many times in Madrid and... California and all over the world. And that had been sort of like a really career defining moment. And I encourage everybody to check it out.
Mission of Dance Device Lab
00:15:49
Speaker
Let's pause this episode so I can tell you about one of my favorite resources for dancers, Ballet Help Desk. If you've been loving the Brainy Ballerina podcast, you'll want to add the Ballet Help Desk pod to your list.
00:16:03
Speaker
This is the premier podcast for dance parents and hosts Brett and Jenny share weekly x expert insights on supporting your students' ballet education. They cover key topics like summer intensives, ballet competitions, full-time and post-grad training, health and wellness, boys in ballet, and more to help your dancer make the most informed decisions about their unique training path.
00:16:28
Speaker
Another one of my favorite resources from Ballet Help Desk is their reviews. Head to their website for over 1,400 reviews on summer intensives and year-round training programs.
00:16:40
Speaker
And while you're at it, submit your review to help other dancers and their families make important decisions about their future. The more transparency in the dance world, the better. Head to the show notes to visit the Ballet Help Desk website today.
00:16:54
Speaker
Okay, let's talk little bit more about Dance Device Lab. Yeah. What is the mission of the company and how did it all get started? Dance Device Lab is a company I started in 2017 and we produce in-studio events nationwide. So we do in-studio conventions.
00:17:10
Speaker
We pair you with incredibly experienced and interested guest teachers. And we do our signature event, our adjudication showcase, which is like an interactive style in-studio competition event where you get interactive feedback with your judges or adjudicators.
00:17:27
Speaker
And the mission is to give dancers the tools that are valuable inside and outside of the studio. We are not ah company that comes in and only wants to work with the two star dancers at your studio.
00:17:41
Speaker
We truly feel that we need to empower everybody in the room, that everybody is there to dance, everybody can find success. and brilliance in what they're doing in the room. And part of that comes from, i also work in nonprofit management. I'm an executive director of a dance company. And I find that so many people stop dancing after high school.
00:18:05
Speaker
They're just not interested in it. And you know what? They stop dancing, but then they also don't go see shows. They don't go see the national tour when it's in your hometown. They don't go see Ailey or a company that's visiting. And I'm like, well, why is that? And part of me is like,
00:18:18
Speaker
Probably because you're a little burnt out have like a weird experience in this competitive nature that we define dance as. So part of Dance Device Lab's mission is to empower everybody to be their best creative selves, no matter where that takes you when you're done outside of the studio. So if you're going to go be a doctor, I want to implore you and give you some tools and nuggets in the studio that you can think about how that's going to relate to something you do later. You know, we play composition games and we take creative ideas from the room and infuse them into our work. So
00:18:51
Speaker
It's more than just coming in and teaching combos.
The Power of Live Performances
00:18:54
Speaker
It's really bringing all of this creative energy and this creative, these tools that all of our faculty have accumulated and sharing them with your dancers and just planting little seeds and letting and them grow within your studio and grow within these dancers. And it's been incredibly rewarding to share these ideas. It's basically what I didn't have growing up.
00:19:15
Speaker
And I'm trying to connect those dots for those dancers. it's like, I don't need to come in and teach you an entire Cunningham class. But like, maybe when you're 12, and we just throw in some of these ideas of like, canon, don't face the front, we're going to do a whole phrase facing different ways, you're exposed to that. And then you run with it, the teachers run with it for the years, and they get a different experience than they have access to where they are.
00:19:38
Speaker
oh I kind of want to go back to something you said about going to see performances, which is a little bit off on a tangent, but i really yeah that really stood out to me because I had a similar experience like you're describing of when I retired from dancing, I really didn't want to step foot in a theater.
00:19:53
Speaker
it was too hard for a while, and so I didn't really go see a lot of shows. And this year, I finally – how many years out is it? Seven years later, i finally am like, okay, I'm craving live theater, and I made it my goal this year to see 12 shows.
00:20:08
Speaker
live shows. Amazing. Anything. Could be anything, comedy, dance, whatever. but It just reinvigorated me and really made my passion for dance come back alive because I was feeling a little bit burnt out in it. i just I totally agree that when you're right out of it, sometimes it can feel just too raw, hard to go in the theater. But would encourage anybody out there who is either currently dancing or maybe has taken a step back, go see a performance. And if dance is too hard, go see musical theater or go see something outside of the genre that you may be trained in.
00:20:40
Speaker
And it will really just awaken something in you that you might not have known was a little bit dormant.
Engaging Audiences Beyond Traditional Performances
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's a hard thing is dancers were incredibly empathetic. So when you're seeing a show, your muscle memory is, i mean, that's science. You see something, you envision something, your actual like neurons in your muscle are firing, right? Like you're relating to that thing on stage. So that makes total sense, especially...
00:21:01
Speaker
coming from dance, you can only see yourself doing that dance. But I tell every single person I come across to ask me, what do I need to be to be a good dancer? What do I need to be a professional? And it's actually be interested in things outside of the studio.
00:21:16
Speaker
Go to your local art gallery, make art, learn about lighting design, read a book, do something outside of dance. The more interested you are outside of the studio, the more interesting you will be in the studio. As dancers and especially younger dancers, you know, in your training era through high school and even through college, you are so in your body.
00:21:37
Speaker
Dancers can be a little bit selfish or insanely self-aware that you can't get out of your body and your scope is really, really narrow. And the more that you can get outside of the studio and see all the art,
00:21:51
Speaker
around you and all the creative genres and disciplines around you if you bring that into your suit into the studio that will only make you ah better creative while you're working in the studio go see anything and everything as a non-profit leader do you have any tips for companies lot of companies are really feeling this hit right now financially and we are trying to pull audiences in and it's hard what are some of the strategies that you use One thing I've done is I've really shifted our financing and forecasting model to be incredibly pragmatic and realistic. I'm no longer being optimistic. You know, you can see the cuts from the NEA from this...
00:22:33
Speaker
disastrous administration. am always reminding people that the arts are small businesses. You can think that you don't deserve it or that that money isn't needed, but if you want to uplift small businesses, you have to uplift these dance companies and the ecosystem of entertainment and hospitality that go along with it. That $30,000 that gets cut out of nowhere was money that was already spent. If you're managing something and that NEA grant got cut, well, that $30,000 got cut. And then you have to think about, well, if the show gets canceled, how many restaurants are going to be affected? How many hotels are going to be affected? How many costume designers and contractors are going to be affected? Like, it's an entire ecosystem that no one necessarily...
00:23:13
Speaker
thinks about in those sort of headlining moments. that's my soapbox of like general where the nonprofit sector is. But yeah to remedy that, i really think people are interested in experiences.
00:23:24
Speaker
It's really hard for people to get into the theater for myriad of reasons. It's a hard sell. I think money is tight. Discretionary spending is down. The value of it is...
00:23:36
Speaker
is shifting And people want more than just to go sit in a dark room for two hours. Society changed, right? Like people don't even go to the movies anymore. So how are we going to get people to go into the theaters?
00:23:49
Speaker
And I think that's creating experience. I think that's creating pre-show events, post-show events. People want something to do that is tangible and that is active and that is interactive. And typically in the nonprofit world, we've been like, okay, we'll go see a show. And then for 45 minutes after we'll have some cheap wine and you can meet the dancers that actually are like really, really tired and aren't getting paid to be here and like want to go home. And we're just kind of like making them do this thing just to say we did something. And I think we have to shift our programming and think about how can we make these
00:24:22
Speaker
curatorial and artistic decisions that are illuminating for the audience. So I talk about go see other genres. Like, well, yeah, maybe there is a local gallerist that you could partner with to do an art exhibition in the lobby or maybe make a sort of two-stop experience. Maybe like Part one of the event is going to this gallery. You're supporting your own your local businesses. And then that relates to the show that you're seeing. San Francisco Ballet, Tamara Rojo, did an incredible job with this new Azure Barton work that was all based around AI. And she commissioned... new artists, got Google and tech companies involved, a commission score. is She made this new evening length that was very apropos of her city and her town, but she made it this event.
00:25:05
Speaker
It really worked it because it was more than just seeing a show. And I think we have to think beyond the studio, beyond the theater, beyond the nutcracker. And it's like, how are we taking that out into the communities and how are we making things more relevant and then getting more income, more earned income from that instead of contributed income. I
Teaching Philosophy: Community and Kindness
00:25:25
Speaker
love that. I say this all the time. I mean, as a mom of two small kids, for me to go see a show, it's a bigger commitment than me just walking out my door and going to see a show, right? I have to organize a babysitter. And it's like maybe my only date night my husband for two months. So we want to make a whole experience. So even like you said before, it's affecting restaurants. Could you partner with a restaurant and do...
00:25:44
Speaker
a cool menu like for that night for the performance and then you have this partnership and you're mutually beneficial because you're both advertising for each other you said exactly people want a full experience they want a full night out they want it to be a little bit special like see and be seen kind of thing you want to make it the place to be seen like oh you were at the ballet that's really cool Yeah. And to your point, how are we thinking about what audiences want and need?
00:26:08
Speaker
And, you know, I don't run a venue. I run a dance company. So I am beholden to venues for this. But I'm always trying to get presenters to think about this of like, yeah, you know what? Is there child care support? Is there a grant in your state where you could subsidize babysitting so mothers of young children can go? Or can you build that into your ticket pricing and just...
00:26:29
Speaker
Say everyone's going to pay five more dollars. We are going to offer like 10 moms that come to this show subsidized childcare. I don't know. Like we have to think like that a little bit more instead of come to our thing and see our dance because we think it's cool. It's like it's not. It's transactional. And it's, yeah ah hate saying this, but like dance isn't that important. It's not.
00:26:49
Speaker
The community is important. The act of dancing and the viewing of it you're not curing cancer. What it does is it brings people together. unites. It gets many people in a room having one live shared experience with the artists on stage, with the creatives, with the audience, with the crew.
00:27:06
Speaker
That's what's important. It's not the act of it. We have to get back to like why theater is theater. It's an act of community. Yeah. Okay. I want to go back to Dance Advice Lab. I just really, I love all your points on that. I say those things all the time and I'm, yeah, I'm totally on the same page as you.
00:27:21
Speaker
yeah So thinking about Dance Advice Lab, you touched on this, but can you just elaborate more on your teaching philosophy and some of the qualities you're hoping to instill in the students you teach beyond their technique?
00:27:35
Speaker
My teaching philosophy is to have an effect on everyone in a room. So I make it a mission to look everybody in the eye. If you're in a circle thanking everybody after class, I'm looking each of you in the eye. I'm making sure that I'm engaging with every single person in the room at all times. we were just talking about community. i want to like broaden dancers perspective community.
00:27:56
Speaker
Being aware of other people in the room. I often say when I teach company class or open class here, the thing that I miss about dancing is daily company class. Like I miss the 90 minutes where like, I don't have a phone.
00:28:09
Speaker
I don't know what's going on in the world. No one can get ahold of me. That's sort of my like meditative space. I didn't realize how special and unique that was until I stopped dancing. Cause I'd been doing that my whole life. And it was like the second I didn't have that hour and a half in a day, I just like, ah,
00:28:23
Speaker
but It's like everything's always on. And I want to like empower dancers that the people that you're with, the music that you're dancing to, this sort of group communal experience is really, really special to help them like not be so in their bodies, but to like broaden and look around the room and dance with people and dance as a group. I often play this game that I make people pick a buddy.
00:28:45
Speaker
And I'm just like, pick a buddy that you don't know that isn't your duet partner. Or if I'm teaching at a big dance convention, I do this every single time. So find someone you don't know, not from your studio. And they're like freaking out, you know, and they introduce each other. And I'm just like, all right, we're going to the combo.
00:29:00
Speaker
You're going to dance. You're going to watch. And when you're done, you're going to give them two compliments. And the compliments need to be in full sentences and they need to be very descriptive. it's not just like you had good pointed toes. It's like find a qualitative and a quantitative thing and like tell the stranger something that you loved about their dancing.
00:29:19
Speaker
That's the mission, right? Because then they're going to go connect with each other on TikTok and then their the community is going to expand and they're going make friends. It's so hard to get outside of your sphere and your orbit. That is the mission of TikTok.
00:29:31
Speaker
My teaching, whether it's an open class for professional dancers or five-year-olds in the mini room, it's about dancing with people and building community and looking around and enjoying the group aspect of it.
00:29:45
Speaker
And you're taking away that almost cutthroat competitive aspect of dancing where it's like, I'm trying to be better than you because... There's that idea that there's only so many jobs and we're all competing against each other. And it's, hey, actually, we're a community and we're all in this together. And let's all rise up together. That's right. I mean, I can't even tell you how many people I've met along my journey that I didn't know I'd meet 10 years later. I mean, look at us.
00:30:09
Speaker
like Yeah. I mean, it's just, this is like a prime example. And yeah people always ask, like how can I be a professional dancer? What's the most important thing? And I'm like, as someone behind the table, i don't care if you're good, because there's a thousand great people out there. You can be the best dancer in the room.
00:30:27
Speaker
If you're not a nice person, um not working with you. Because I'd rather take another good person or a less good person or however you want to define that talent or that skill.
00:30:38
Speaker
So much of dancing, you tell dancers in studios, you think about your recital. Your recital or your year-end show is like 3% of the time that you spend with these dancers all year, right? You're going to competition,
Impact of Screen Time on Young Dancers
00:30:50
Speaker
you're in the class, you're in the dressing rooms, you're in the car It's the same thing being a professional dancer. It's a very, very tiny amount of time that you're actually on stage performing.
00:30:59
Speaker
But especially when you're in a touring dance company, guess what? You get to the airport at... 10am and your flight's canceled and you still have to make it to the show so the company manager is putting you on a flight to St. Louis and you got to take an eight hour bus and then you're tired and then you have to be in the theater in six hours.
00:31:17
Speaker
Are you going to be the person that brings the entire group down because you're grouchy about your travel delay? That is the person that I will not work with and I will not hire. I would rather work with someone that shows up and is professional and is a good, kind person and human. That is what's going to make you ah professional dancer.
00:31:36
Speaker
Being professional, not doing a thousand pirouettes. And that's really the most important part. And to your point of it being like really competitive, it's really hard to not think about that because dance is innately, I need to get better. I take this class.
00:31:50
Speaker
It's scaffolding, right? You're always obtaining that goal and we lose that perception of everything around us when we're like in that zone. Let's quickly pause this episode so I can share with you one of my favorite snacks that I have been loving lately.
00:32:05
Speaker
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00:32:17
Speaker
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00:32:32
Speaker
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00:32:45
Speaker
And the best news is you can get 20% off your first order with code BRAINYBALLERINA. Head to the show notes and click the link to try Aloha Protein Bars for yourself today. What's exciting you the most about this next generation of dancers?
00:33:00
Speaker
This next generation of dancers is really interesting because they have so much access to things. So, you know, the problem I'm trying to solve with Dance Device Lab, they can solve themselves in theory by having YouTube. I didn't even know where to start looking up Netherlands dance theater when I was in middle school or or high school. Like I didn't even know that existed. We didn't have access to it. You know, you'd have to read a book.
00:33:20
Speaker
But they have access. They have YouTube. They have TikTok. Their perception and access is broader. They need something like Dance Device Lab or someone who has that experience to really teach it Dance is an oral tradition. So you can't learn it off screen. you You know, that is TikTok, right? It's like learning a dance on a screen.
00:33:41
Speaker
There's not artistry in it. It's plug and play, right? So it's like to get the richness of it, it is an oral experience and it is a tangible experience. I'm excited for them because they're leaps and bounds ahead of what's possible. They also are this sort of like trend in like hypermobility and technique is i have some issues with it.
00:34:01
Speaker
But it is interesting thinking about how facility is no longer a barrier, right? It's like, I'm seeing these young dancers now and they can do things that I couldn't even imagine. i don't know if you should be doing all of those things. But when I grew up, I just was like trying to get the left splits.
00:34:19
Speaker
I just wanted like my sides even and it's not that anymore. And I'm curious to see or know once that stops, once you achieve whatever goal you're trying to achieve there, can you switch into your artistry?
00:34:32
Speaker
Can you be an artist sooner because you've checked those boxes that we deem appropriate for X line at a dance competition? like Your arabesque is as high as it's going to go. Did you get that at 12?
00:34:43
Speaker
Then what do you do with it? And I feel like we're at a crossroads with that because it's getting a little gymnastics-y. But maybe once you get there, then we do get a dive deeper into... into all of that nuance.
00:34:56
Speaker
I'm curious to see what that changes. I'm with you. I am kind of struggling with that because I do feel like students are really wanting to get those things. I remember that as a young dancer too, like wanting to do all those things, but in a very different way, like you said, it wasn't as much about the crazy tricks. It was more about like, I wanted my technique to be really, really clean.
00:35:15
Speaker
to the detriment of my artistry. So it's a little bit different, but similar. But I see this with my own kids, like that they are just growing up in a very different world than we did. And it's hard for them. As a parent, I have to be so, so conscious of like, if we need something, son will be like, just order it on Amazon. It'll be here in four hours. you know what i mean? It's like, that is just a world that he's growing up in. My son, he's five years old and he was having a lot of emotional dysregulation lately, like really just having a hard time coping with anything.
00:35:44
Speaker
Any inconvenience was like a huge meltdown. It was like the world was ending. And for a while, he'd been doing some games on his tablet every day for like half an hour because we had a baby and then we were trying to invent survival mode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It came in habit, right? Yeah. And then all of a sudden I was like, I think we need stop doing that.
00:36:02
Speaker
Within days, he was like... back to his normal self regulated, back to like this sweet kid that I like, because like I would say to my husband, I was like, this isn't the kid that we know. Like what is going on?
00:36:16
Speaker
it was wild to me. And it just kind of drove home the point that like, Screen time, all these things for parents, like it's such a tool that like sometimes you do employ it. But it really proved to me that like kids brains and even up to teens, you know, I mean, your prefrontal cortex is not fully formed till you're about
Ensuring Engagement in Dance Classes
00:36:34
Speaker
25. Their brains are not equipped to deal with this, with social media, with all of this kind of instant graphication that we have in our world.
00:36:42
Speaker
And as teachers, it's hard to bring them back to be like, let's get back to the basics. and let's work on this one tando for fifteen minutes because that's not the world they're living in. Yeah. I mean, that's really, really interesting. And I'm glad that sort of shift has happened. And, you know, you think about it in technique and, you know, like what's happening now is injurious.
00:37:00
Speaker
So many teenagers have had labral tears and ankle things. And I just, I'm like, you are way too young for that. And what is it? That sort of instant stretching. And like, it's just like, you're not, it's not training.
00:37:14
Speaker
And it doesn't do good in the long run. I'm not a regular teacher. So I can't come in and impart that I can't give that opinion because I'm not the one that's working with you every week. I can say it to you on this podcast and like loud and clear like don't put them in the over splits on the yoga block but like, it's the world we're living in.
00:37:33
Speaker
yeah I have a hard rule in my classes at Dance Device Lab events, and I may be seen as like a curmudgeon for it, but five minutes before class and five minutes after class, I want you off your phone.
00:37:46
Speaker
I don't want you sitting on your phone and then just like running into class. I bring them in five minutes before so they have to sit down and they have to talk to each other. And then five minutes after class, I make them write stuff down like old school in that way because I've i've showed up just like guest teaching or choreographies like phone, phone, phone down and you just walk in and you're like ready to warm up and it's like that transition time is really real, like phone, mind, body, neurons.
00:38:13
Speaker
What am I doing? Like that presence is really important. And we don't allot enough time for it to get into your sort of physical and mental space. And I think we as teachers need to help dancers, if we can't do it, you know, the granular level of like house rules or how, you know, you want to parent, we have a bit of a responsibility to train them and educate them that that transition period is really, really, really important.
00:38:40
Speaker
And let them know why and let them feel the difference. Because it truly is a dopamine like crash when you get off of your phone and then you're spending the first 15 minutes of your class trying to regulate yourself.
00:38:53
Speaker
And then all of a sudden you're doing harder things and your brain's not caught up. Yeah. I mean, I even have a rule with parents when I do guest choreography. It's remarkable to me. You come in, you're seeing a dance that has been made on your dancer for the first time and everybody just phone.
00:39:08
Speaker
and they're watching the dance through their phone. And they're they're my age, right? I understand. I always say, like, we're gonna run it twice. We will run this twice. You will have your opportunity so that your dancer can see it, so they can improve. I understand the tools behind all of that, but like, this is live.
00:39:22
Speaker
This goes back to like creating a live experience. And this is a live moment. This has never been seen before. This is the first time you're gonna see this of a million times this year. Just watch it with your eyes.
00:39:34
Speaker
Just like be in the room. And it makes not only for the teaching a little bit of a lesson to the parents, but it's also like about live theater, but it's also for the dancers. The second you put a camera in front of somebody, I don't care if they're doing TikTok a thousand times a day, it's a performance.
00:39:49
Speaker
You're doing it to be projected somewhere. So they come they're nervous. They've done this dance once or twice. Like it's brand, brand new. And then you have 30 phones in front of you that you know is going to go They do it completely differently and you lose all of that magic that you've been able to build over like, you know, two days of making a new work or something in one second because everyone just like has to have their phone out. So it's like, that's a steadfast rule I have of like the first time everybody in the room just gets just you just watch it.
00:40:21
Speaker
You just watch it. And it's great. I love that. and I think that is a really good point because we preach to our students a lot. You know, it's okay to mess up. It's okay to fail. Like you have to fail to grow. But then when you have someone filming you, you don't always feel like that because you're like this is going to live forever. I have to be absolutely perfect. And it puts so much more pressure. You're so right. yeah Yeah.
00:40:41
Speaker
Or the conventions. you know It's fine. I get it. I'm a business owner. i understand marketing. And you know you need to do that. We do it at Dance Advice Lab events. But I'm steadfast on not doing the...
00:40:52
Speaker
calling out three people and doing a video. We'll do the big group. We will do it for archival and and continuity, but we are not a phone video company where we come in and just like document your dancers to promote in ways. Like I've been saying, like my teaching philosophy, like that class moment is like super, super sacred.
00:41:11
Speaker
It's
Dance Device Lab's Programs for Dancers
00:41:12
Speaker
an important that we keep it insular to that community and enhance the community that's in the room. Are there any new projects or goals that you're working on? Well, we are in our big marketing push for adjudication showcases. We've launched that for our 2026 season, which I'm really excited about. and yeah, our adjudication showcase is...
00:41:33
Speaker
an interactive competition style event. So taking my teaching philosophy, we've been talking about putting it, i was a rehearsal director and associate choreographer for a really long time, piecing that in together into giving feedback to competition students. So you'll perform your dance either on stage or in a studio, and then you'll get like a 10 to 20 minute slot, depending on the size of the dance, where your adjudicators are up on our feet and actively rehearsing with you. You hear stretch your back leg at a competition tape. Like we're working with you with TheraBands and teaching you and giving you new tools and like tangibly teaching our feedback for all of your competition dances. And that is our really exciting program we have. I'm also working working on launching a couple mentoring programs, particularly around for new dancers who have arrived in New York in how to navigate your freelance career and pre-college mentoring for ah parents and students. I find that, ah you know, I travel across the country and so many parents come up and say, my daughter wants me on Broadway. How does she get into Juilliard? And it's like, oh!
00:42:35
Speaker
That's the right there, right there. like We got to like undo a lot. you know And it's like, that's not necessarily the right school for your dancer if they want to be on Broadway. And I think yeah your parent doesn't know because they're a dentist.
00:42:48
Speaker
So you know trying to connect those dots a little bit more and- With Dance Device Lab, we've had studios that have booked with us multiple events since the beginning. You know, we have like really, really like deep, tangible relationships with them. You know, there are studios where we come in and show up and leave, but we've really nurtured these relationships over the years. And it's now in a place where we're thinking about how our programming can be a little bit more year round instead of coming in once or twice and having your your hours with them. I feel a bit like a studio owner does when kids are graduating now. It's just like, Like, my gosh, I've known you since we were you were so young. And and you know we're a part of that journey and we're proud of it. And it's like, well, how do we help them more?
00:43:27
Speaker
And how do we help studio owners more? They get fielded these questions and they're running their small business and they have multiple, you know it's like, so how can we be a resource for not only the kids, but the entire ecosystem?
Versatility and Pursuing Interests Outside Dance
00:43:37
Speaker
you know I really believe- I grew up at a small dance studio. They're the bedrock of the entire, you can be Misty Copeland, you can be me, you can be anybody. Everyone grew up at a Miss So-and-So's somewhere. And that's the entire dance industry as local dance studios. And how can we support those business owners and you teachers?
00:43:57
Speaker
Are you taking your events? Are they just in the New York area or do you go all over? All over. Yeah, we're nationwide. Yeah. Okay, last question. What advice would you give to the dancers who are pursuing their professional career?
00:44:11
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, think we've touched on it a little bit all throughout this conversation, but be as versatile as possible, be a good human, men and be interested in things outside of the studio. And tangibly, I would also say you need to be a dancer and something else.
00:44:27
Speaker
Being a dancer is not a full-time job. There's maybe a few, i would say 20 companies in the country that you can make a livable wage just dancing. And that is like the 0.1% of opportunities. You are going to be a dancer. And if you make it on Broadway, hooray, you're making good money for the time that you're working, but your show may close at any given time.
00:44:51
Speaker
or you may get injured, or a global pandemic may happen. You never really know. And dance is not a full-time job. And when it is, it's still not a lucrative job.
00:45:02
Speaker
So it's hard for people to hear, but you need to be a dancer and something else. If you're interested in numbers, learn how to do QuickBooks. I am always hiring someone to like help with bookkeeping. If you like travel, learn to be a company manager. If you like sewing,
00:45:18
Speaker
Make scarves, work in wardrobe. There are so many dance and creative adjacent things that you can do. You know, I was interested in business. I'm an executive director. I started my own business. Just dancing will not be enough to feel you creatively fill your wallet and feel your schedule.
00:45:34
Speaker
So you need to take the time to figure out how you can also be creative and fill those pieces of that puzzle together and make something interesting for yourself. Because so many people think about it too late and then you like do a hard pivot. You're a dancer and something else that you're just like, how did I find myself here? I just need to make money or I did i have all summer free and I'm doing this.
00:45:57
Speaker
There are so many ways to relate that interest to dance. But when you're young, You're so focused on dance that you kind of push all those other things aside. And I think it's really important to nurture that so you can sort of build a holistic light that rewards you as much as dance does. Because it's the hardest thing. It's like, we love dance so much and it means so much to us.
00:46:18
Speaker
I mean, that's something I've struggled with is not dancing anymore. finding a new career that I like, well, I don't like anything as much as I did when I was dancing. And I was really good at like that sort of thing is really hard to replicate. And, you know, I've been able to find ways that sort of feed in and tap into that and instances. And I'm thankful for that. And I encourage all young dancers to tap into that sooner because it's really important. Take the other college class, just do it.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah, and if for no other reason than maybe just to find out what you do and don't like. Like I was in college and I was double majoring in exercise science and dance thinking I wanted to be a PT. And then I started taking organic chemistry and I was like, no way.
00:46:58
Speaker
This isn't for me. You know? so Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. yeah And I always thought that I would take that path because I am so interested in that, but just not in that capacity. and Yeah. Yeah, you have to find out. You don't know what you don't know.
00:47:10
Speaker
yeah you don't know what you don't know. Absolutely. Put that on a t-shirt. You don't know what you don't know. Yeah, and it's important to know. It's important to experience and it'll only make you a better dancer. Okay, for anyone listening who wants to learn more about Dance Device Lab or about your work, where can we find you?
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah, you can visit dancedevicelab.com for checking us out on our website or at dancedevicelab on Instagram. You can also check out my personal website, which is my name, brandoncornet.com.
00:47:41
Speaker
And we look forward to staying in touch. Perfect. Thank you so much for this, Brandon. This was so fun. And I really appreciate your time today. Yeah, thank you for having me it was great.
00:47:53
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
00:48:06
Speaker
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00:48:19
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.