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Paranormal Round Table - July - Demonology, burnout, toxicity, Hellier, and more!
450 Plays1 year ago
In this morths episode, Ash, Greg, Mike, Michaela and Nat discuss all things paranormal including -
- Paranormal Burnout and what that means to us all
- Demonology
- An item Greg brings to every investigation
- Toxic nature of the paranormal community
- Paranormal films
- Paranormal docs as well including Hellier
Oh and happy birthday mentions for Nick T, pour OG listener!
www.linktr.ee/pursuitoftheparanormal
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Transcript
Introduction and Weather Talk
00:00:00
Speaker
welcome to the worst nightmare of all reality explore the lesser known stories of our unknown world join the pursuit of the paranormal with ash and greg hello everybody and welcome back to july's paranormal round table
00:00:30
Speaker
is July. I can't believe it. You wouldn't know. It's been raining all day here. Oh, yeah. All of Europe is basking in 40 degree heat. So burning. It's our Brexit. So not only do Europe hate us, the weather hates us.
Guest Introductions and UFO Community
00:00:50
Speaker
Anyway, we are joined, as always, by Paramike. Mark Earl, how are we doing? Not bad stuff.
00:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, very well. Thank you. Very well. We've got Michaela from Paranormal or What podcast. Hello. And we have Nat, who is joining us today, who's one of the main people, probably the most important person, UFO identified. And oh, my God. Well, I don't even know what I'm thinking now.
00:01:29
Speaker
Also, the voice behind the podcast with Abby, Women of Zuck, and my newest one, Closet of Curiosities. Yeah, the artwork on that is fantastic. Yes, good evening to everyone. How are we all doing? Good.
00:01:53
Speaker
Apart from that, we agree with you on that. We're getting the rough end of the stick here when everyone else is very hot and warm elsewhere.
Paranormal Burnout and Skepticism
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So we'll start today's episode with paranormal burnout.
00:02:12
Speaker
Well, it's on the topic of your lips on fire. Oh, Ash. I can't believe you're that too close to the line. That's slick. Especially with your name being Ash. There we go. My Corfu holiday on Sunday is in jeopardy. Oh no. Oh geez. So is Corfu really bad then? I know Rhodes is.
00:02:37
Speaker
Wow. Well, fingers crossed for you that it's all good. That's all good. So I have to keep us posted on the next episode to tell us whether or not it went ahead. I'm certainly hope you do. Yeah, I certainly hope you do. I certainly hope you do.
00:02:53
Speaker
I've never been to coffee. No, I'm fine, I'm hoping to. It's very nice, I've been. Oh, good. Don't brag. I might not get there. So, paranormal burnout then. What are your thoughts, Mike? It was something that you raised as a topic issue. Do you care to elaborate a little bit more and then we'll go round and see what everybody's thoughts are.
00:03:21
Speaker
Yeah, so it's essentially the feeling of the more you see things in terms of the paranormal sphere, community, whatever you want to call it. And the more things come out as fake, or the more you delve into it and see that a lot of stuff within it is fake. And then on top of that, if anyone listening or anyone on the panel has been on a paranormal investigation, which I know most of you have,
00:03:48
Speaker
and as we kind of know paranormal investigations can be the most boring way to spend an evening and it's just does it get to a point where where you look at everything online and everything almost seemingly everything's fake and then you go and try and investigate for yourself and you get nothing and you kind of think like this is getting really tedious like is is something I've been thinking about more and more recently due to those circumstances starting to think like is the paranormal
00:04:18
Speaker
Is there anything actually in it is is is there anything real in it so to speak and it's one of those weird things say because Then you'll have a night where something happens and it snaps you right back into being like being excited I mean, oh my god, but but yeah, there's long periods of time where I look at everything and go is um are we or am I just kidding myself that What I'm doing is what I may or may not think it is
00:04:49
Speaker
thoughts everyone?
Social Media's Impact on Paranormal Interest
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah I would agree with you and I think in our age of manic social media at the minute because it's ever so clever and spies on you the more that you're interested in a particular subject obviously the more little bits of that kind of snippets that you get so a lot comes my way on Facebook and TikTok and things like that of paranormal stuff but I find myself now flicked whereas I would have looked
00:05:18
Speaker
and checked out each of those videos and really scrutinised it. Now there's so much out there, I find myself just flick, flick, flick at because I just think I can't be arsed even watching this. It's too much. It's overload. And every Tom, Dick and Harry seems to be posting about it. And it does get you like that where you just think, I don't want to sit through and watch any more of this. It's enough.
00:05:46
Speaker
But then there'll be the one little clip that you do watch and it'll draw you right back in again because there'll be something on that you think, I think there's something in that or I'd like to dive into that a bit more. But there's so much of it out there on social media and on telly, everyone's doing a bit of it, that it can become overloaded. Would you reckon, Michaela?
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree. I think I'm going through a period of it at the moment. I'm just fed up. Even when the one thing over all the years of doing this that used to get me really excited was watching other people on the TV doing stuff. And now I must have like 160
00:06:40
Speaker
paranormal programs recorded on my TV. Like I'm just gonna have a little paranormal hour because I don't you know with having kids and working full-time and all that sort of thing you just think right I'm gonna treat myself and have an hour of paranormal to myself and I sit there going more of the same more of the same seeing that can't stand him he really winds me up and I just like oh
00:07:04
Speaker
I might watch Gardener's World instead. And then the same as Nat said, going through all my paranormal groups on Facebook. Oh God, oh that idiot. Oh God, can't stand them wittering on again. And then I'll watch YouTube shows that we all know about and I think
00:07:25
Speaker
They're really starting to annoy me now. And then you go on an investigation and you go, why am I doing this? I could have been sat at home. And you do get to the point where you just go, am I?
00:07:39
Speaker
Have I had enough of this now for a bit? Do I need to leave and come back in six months? Because I feel like I'm just being really negative about everything. Everyone's annoying me. Everyone seems fake. Everyone seems out for themselves. Everyone's whinging. And sometimes it just all seems to crowd in.
00:07:59
Speaker
And you go, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. Nobody's listening to my podcast anyway. Nobody reads my articles that are right. And I think you just get yourself on a massive negative sort of down. And I think with me and maybe with you, as you said, it's like, it's overload. And you just go, I just, I'm not enjoying this at the moment. I'm not even interested, which I've never found myself
00:08:26
Speaker
you know, at a point where I thought I'm not interested anymore. And the only thing that perked me up
Skepticism in Paranormal TV Shows
00:08:32
Speaker
was the idea of popping on here for 20 minutes. I thought, oh yeah, I'd really like to do that. So I just said to my friend, do you mind if I just go and pop into the live feed for 20 minutes? And that's literally the only thing, and I've never been in that situation before. So I think it is overload really. I think all the shows that you see on telly
00:08:52
Speaker
are so similar. They're all bunches of people hanging out in the middle of the night in a creaky old haunted house with the same bits of equipment facing down the same stories. And they go to the same places on a lot of the different shows that are out there. So we're not seeing anything fresh or new or any type of different type of investigations. I mean, ghosts don't just come out at nighttime. Yeah.
00:09:23
Speaker
Everything nearly that we see there on the telly or clips and stuff is filmed in the dark in a shady little camera in the corner. It's time to kick it up and freshen it up and do something a bit different. That's what I get me. Yeah. Even the things where people are doing different things, what's really annoying me at the moment is that people are telling me what I can believe in.
00:09:46
Speaker
They're telling me I'm not allowed to believe in orbs or any light anomalies. I'm not allowed to believe in the Ouija board. I'm not allowed to believe in this because they've all proven that it doesn't work and it doesn't exist. And I just think, don't tell me what to believe and don't call me a cretin for believing it. And that really winds me up because people who are investigators should be open-minded, not telling people what they should be doing and what they should be believing in. That really winds me up.
00:10:16
Speaker
I think that's something to be said as well. I had a, I guess, an experience recently where someone who I go investigating with quite a lot was like, oh, you should, you should watch this YouTube channel, Project Fear. They're really good. They do do some interesting things. They'll like stay overnight alone in the haunted places. But I put it on for two seconds and it was typical travel channel bullshit.
00:10:44
Speaker
where they remind you of guys remember when we were here last year and this happened on floor two where we're going up to floor two now I wonder if it will happen again remember when this happened on floor two and to the point that one of them got in an elevator pressed the button and then when the elevator moved jumped out of his skin and screamed going oh my god and it's like this is
00:11:07
Speaker
I'm not sure if they understand how elevators work but it's all dramatized and all fucking built up and it's all a bunch of people jumping around screaming and stuff like that and don't get me wrong, I've had some sketchy moments and that's not necessarily how I react and I can imagine that some people do react like that.
00:11:28
Speaker
But over everything, it's like, come on, man. And I think that that's what spoils it again for me as well, the fact that it's because it's kind of fucking boring. It gets overdramatized a lot to try and make it interesting. And I think that ruins quite a lot of it.
00:11:44
Speaker
I think for me like sometimes they're watching some of the shows and obviously I mean I've been in places where I've felt scared and maybe reacted differently to how I thought I would react but you watch the shows and asking for a certain thing to happen and then it happens then you went out screaming it's like you're asking for this to happen so why are you now running away from like you've just you've
00:12:06
Speaker
done what you're there to do, why are you now screaming and running away from the camera and doing all this drama, like you say, just, like, that's what you were there for. Like, you asked for it to knock or make a noise. It's just made the noise or moved. Now you're running off scared. It's like, doesn't make sense.
Real vs. Dramatized Paranormal Investigations
00:12:21
Speaker
And not to, not to hark on about it again, because I've spoken about it enough, but when we went to the Stoke Museum, and Patsy said, if you, if you, if that's you upstairs, can you do it again, please? And there was that almighty knock.
00:12:31
Speaker
And we quickly found out of the flight flight flight or freeze We were both freezers because we both shit our pants and sat there going. What the fuck was that? Yeah, it was it was fucking scary, but you're right neither of us like Jumped out of our skin went. Oh my god. I ran out or whatever cuz it's like That's what you're here for Yeah, and I always want to go talk to them they've just communicated with you and
00:12:59
Speaker
Don't go, what the hell was that? That's the person or whatever it was that you just asked for. Now carry on the communication. And nobody does. Drives me insane. Carry on, carry on. We want to see how it turns out. Do they get back in touch again? Or does something happen? But nobody's going to know when everyone's either, as you say, running out of the room or going, what the hell was that? That was the thing that you asked for.
00:13:29
Speaker
And I'm not trying to sound like a knob saying this and admittedly there are certain teams that are pushing the boundaries but it's almost as if the vast majority of paranormal investigators are doing the same thing and either faking results or not getting much results so maybe it's time to start rethinking some things or actually properly trying different things. What they are I don't know and I can't tell you but
00:13:56
Speaker
I think the thing is that a lot of the experiments that are done are not new experiments. No. Everything's the same. I know you've got technology and you do the ESTIS method, which is a great experiment, but there's nothing really groundbreaking in a lot of the activity.
00:14:20
Speaker
I know like with Ouija boards, that is something that's been around for some time and it clearly gets some results whether people believe that or not. But yeah, I think that it's the same old
00:14:39
Speaker
Same old thing that happens, I think one of the other issues is that there are other communities under the paranormal umbrella, so like UAP stuff, that is almost daily now, something new is happening and not just something new, but something groundbreaking, like tomorrow it's being discussed, congressional open hearings with three
00:15:10
Speaker
depends what you think of them, top witnesses that are going to be swearing on oath that what they're saying is truth. And I know we've discussed it before and I can never see that
00:15:28
Speaker
that the paranormal community is going to be taken as seriously, I say seriously, but the investment publicly by governments in the paranormal.
00:15:41
Speaker
There's clearly behind the scenes stuff that they do because they remote viewing with stuff that's been done by the CIA. There has been, well, you've got the hedgehog effect from Skinwalker Ranch that some of the secret projects discuss and the fact that orbs now
00:16:06
Speaker
weirdly, and creatures coming out of portals and poltergeist activity, particularly at Skinwalker, but other places. But it doesn't quite get the groundbreaking attention that the UFO community does. Probably because it's non-tangible, there's been no physical
00:16:33
Speaker
evidence that you would necessarily stand up in court. I know there hasn't necessarily been with UFOs, but you've got like the tic-tac video and the gimbal and go fast videos where Navy pilots have caught stuff on camera.
00:16:48
Speaker
It's quite hard to knock that but there's been no high profile Videos come out of the paranormal. It's always stuff that's in the the Sun or the the sport or and historically has been I know it's slightly changing now, but the community is full of batshit crazy people to be fair and When you try and have a rational conversation with them about evidence that they're putting up on Facebook pages and you get told your
00:17:19
Speaker
you're sort of, if you don't like it, just scroll past. It's like, it's not the fact I don't like it, it's the fact that it's clearly something that's not paranormal, being passed off as something that's paranormal, which stops the credibility. I mean, it's the same in the UFO world, there's loads of fake stuff there, but it's very toxic in the paranormal world on Facebook. You don't like it and you get booted from a group, simple as that. And that's no real way to forward this,
00:17:48
Speaker
the sort of position of the paranormal in my mind. So I feel the same way. There is paranormal burnout.
Challenges in Paranormal Investigations
00:17:58
Speaker
It's so much on TV and YouTube. Everybody wants
00:18:05
Speaker
Once a piece of it, everybody is very clickbaity in terms of TV programs, because not much happens all the time. Something has to happen in a TV program pretty much for a mainstream network to take it. Because you wouldn't want six episodes of six different locations with no evidence at all, because that would be boring. Pretty dull. But we've been fortunate enough, me and Ash, to speak to Keith Linda.
00:18:31
Speaker
who Mike put me in touch with about Bothell House and they had Ghost Adventures there with Zack Baggins and his crew and he told us his version of what happened in the episode. They were like there for a matter of a few hours
00:18:50
Speaker
then left and basically said nothing happened paranormal there. Like with what Nat said, most of the key stuff happened in the daytime, but then ghost events went there at night for like three hours where most of the stuff happened here in the daytime and over a long period of time. They went at night for a few hours, nothing happens. They were like, yeah, this is bullshit, nothing happens at this house. It's like, well, come for longer and in the daytime when the stuff happens. There's also more to it than that as well.
00:19:21
Speaker
his, the Bothell Hell House episode was the first episode after they'd been accused of faking things. So it's almost as if they'd gone out to release an episode when nothing happens as if to be like, look guys, we don't fake anything. You're right, they were there for about four hours. And immediately I think Zach Baggins didn't like Keith's girlfriend at the time. No, he didn't. It comes quite evident on the episode as well. I've not actually seen it, but apparently that was another thing.
00:19:51
Speaker
From reading Keith's book and other books about poltergeists They and this might sound like a cop-out, but they are notoriously hard to capture on on video to the point that they will wait apparently won't do anything when there's a camera around because they're Smart enough to know it's around yeah awkward and that's that's the entirety That's the entirety of what a poltergeist is is right awkward
00:20:17
Speaker
And admittedly, there's those clips where Keith Linder will like, walk into his kitchen and all his cup of doors are open or like his sofa's upside down or something like that. And it's like, you look at it and go, is he doing this himself? But then what sort of sane, rational person would just go to that depth of trash in their own house just to go, Oh, look, I've got a poltergeist. Because he's not
00:20:43
Speaker
He's written some books about it, but I'm not sure how... It's not like he's a super known person in the paranormal community, right? So it's not like an infamy thing. It's weird, very weird. He's a really nice guy. We spoke to him at length a couple of hours and it was... He's an interesting guy and he's very unassuming and... He's...
00:21:08
Speaker
can't remember what his job is exactly. It's something to do with computers, like he works for Microsoft. And this isn't a basis of anyone's character. But from that, generally speaking, people who do those jobs are pretty logical, because it's dealing with computers and the way computers work all day. So you'd think that, and I mean, this is the subject of his third book, where he's trying to apply quantum physics to how a poltergeist operates. And again, it's that logic of looking at something and going, well, how could
00:21:37
Speaker
How can I potentially explain that phenomena happening and not necessarily what's causing it, but how it could happen? And that's when we got to the levitating water droplets and stuff like that.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah, because there's mad stuff that can happen with sound definite with water droplets, paint, all sorts of stuff. There's some great videos. But it does come to a point that there is no it's always the same things with the shows. I don't know how you you feel about that as well. Now, like you mentioned, they're going to the same places. They do the same experiments as everybody else. Everybody does the same experiments. Nobody's
00:22:16
Speaker
even some of the recent sort of high profile programs that are on YouTube and stuff like that now that we talk about, it's still the same set of calling out infrared photographs. Yeah, there's just nothing fresh. There's nothing new. There's no one innovating. And that's what we need. A bit of innovation. What that is, I'm not sure.
00:22:43
Speaker
I also think that's a symptom of not knowing what we're dealing with, though, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, from a previous conversation with Greg, there was something that he suggested we try on an investigation soon. And just from that, I'm like, Yeah, I'll try that. And maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe I'll start investigating in a more cognitive
00:23:09
Speaker
trying to see if it's people's subconscious connecting rather than ghosts of dead people or whatever, you know, seeing if that's a phenomena that comes up. So I usually take a more have taken on previous investigations, a particular photograph of someone not told anybody.
00:23:34
Speaker
but just to see if a name comes up or name comes out, because I speak on these investigations, usually mediums or people with like that kind of, they can get feelings about stuff and surroundings. And I've always tried to see if a name will come up that relates to this photo, never has.
00:24:00
Speaker
But that's not to say it won't, but I do it because then I know to myself that somebody hasn't subconsciously
00:24:12
Speaker
sort of been made aware of something and could influence an answer that comes out. But then on that point, are you actively trying to get the person who has some sort of intuition or sensitivity on a investigation, are you actively trying to get them to connect with that person or are you just hoping it comes up in happenstance? Just hoping it comes up because then you could say, well, you were kind of fishing for names, fishing for information.
00:24:40
Speaker
So I just go there and it's not mentioned.
Innovation in Paranormal Methods
00:24:44
Speaker
I don't make a point of it, making note of the fact that who this picture is of, what is of, the context behind it or anything. It's literally, it's with me, sometimes in my wallet, sometimes in an envelope, sealed envelope, so nobody can even see it. And if a name comes out, because there's,
00:25:10
Speaker
different versions of the name that could come out that I would know, if that makes sense. It's quite difficult to explain it without giving any information away because I know that we'll go out on investigations and stuff together and I don't want to prejudice stuff, but there is a photograph and if a name or something come out, I would
00:25:36
Speaker
I would be able to confirm the photograph from either or multiple names. I'm not too sure if that was too vague enough. I think I get what you mean as in like it will have a name and then there's a nickname associated with that.
00:25:53
Speaker
Potentially, and it was just like, yeah, because if I'm going on a public investigation, particularly, I wouldn't tell anybody because I don't know anybody on that group. And like we've mentioned before, you go on an investigation, unless you know those people, how can you possibly trust what any of them are saying?
00:26:17
Speaker
And there is a ton of people who claim that they are some sort of medium psychic, whatever. When chances are, they're probably not. And if I was a ghost and I was coming to communicate with someone doing an investigation, I would certainly do it when there was no camera pointing at me, no spirit box in the vicinity. And I would just go and frighten the living daylights out of somebody until they ran off.
00:26:47
Speaker
like on Scooby-Doo with some chains. But I certainly wouldn't want to come and perform for a camera and conform to that thing. But do you think, though, that those celebrity mediums on these TV programmes
00:27:10
Speaker
there is an expectation from them as well that they need. So classic one with Derek Acora and some of the stuff that he come up with.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, you can see how it develops over the series because there's an expectation there. He has to be the one that confirms what Yvette is saying, for example. And it gets to a point, everything becomes clickbait in the paranormal world.
00:27:47
Speaker
on the TV programs in, should I should clarify that the paranormal programs in particular, because there's an expectation that people will want to see the program. And the only way you're going to get people to watch your program is if something outrageous happens. Most haunted is an absolute
00:28:08
Speaker
top Trump of that. And also what better way to conduct an investigation than walking in the room and go in. I'm getting married upstick. I'm getting the name David. He's six foot tall. He's got a bowl chop, blah, blah, blah, because that's largely unverifiable, right?
00:28:30
Speaker
But who can, how can you actually dispute that? Because at the end of the day, that's just someone going, well, I'm a medium, that's my experience. That's when that's what's coming to me. It's so difficult, isn't it? A lot. I know that's quite rich coming from me. But everything is subjective in a paranormal world. What do you think, Michaela?
00:28:53
Speaker
I think it'd be brilliant if you walked into an investigation one day and someone went, hang on a minute, Greg, have you got a picture of your Auntie Liz in your back pocket? And then you'd be like, I'm hoping that happens one day, about whoever is in your pocket. Weirdly, I do have an Auntie Liz. See, I knew it. I'm psychic.
00:29:19
Speaker
That's not the person. Imagine if that was the photo. I know, that would have been insane. Didn't even need the investigation. There you go. Wow. That would have been a proper turn up for the books. I would have even got the photo out to show you. So what are your any other thoughts on paranormal burnout from anybody? I think for me, when you're talking about there's something fresh.
00:29:46
Speaker
And because like I said, a lot of the shows are the same kind of stuff. It's kind of an old series now, one that Natalie mentioned the other day on social media, one that you can just go back to. And it is different. It's one of the best panormal documentary series I've seen. That's hell yeah. And it's just a phenomenal series.
00:30:12
Speaker
I go down that rabbit hole of Helia on a very regular basis. Every six to 12 months I go back down that rabbit hole because even now I've seen it so many times, I'm still fascinated by it. It's different. The way it starts as one thing and morphs its way into 101 different other things. Just the way it's filmed, it's just genuine and it's just new. Well, it was at the time.
00:30:42
Speaker
I just think it's a brilliant piece of documentary making. I'm a huge Helya fan. Bring on Season 3 if they're listening out there. I want to watch that. He's sending random email to him and just saying some words at night. Or pretending I'm terrorist or whatever his name was. I haven't seen Helya. Oh my goodness Greg.
00:31:09
Speaker
It's gripping. It's absolutely gripping. I'm in the same boat, Greg. Oh my God. It's one of those where you end up shouting at the telly, go, no, that can't be right. And then it morphs into something humongously different. And I think there's five episodes in the first season. And then the second season's a little longer.
00:31:35
Speaker
but it morphs into something completely different again and it keeps morphing and it's just, it's one of those where your mouth will drop with it. You're like, whoa. And it brings synchronicity. Don't, I knew you were going to say the word. If you could tell me how many times that said, I'll give you ten quid. The synchronicities in that investigation are just beyond words. You couldn't write it.
00:32:06
Speaker
It's actually an investigation series, though, akin to like most haunted or is it? Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's not. I was because I thought it was a dramatization or something. No, no, no. It's that journey. It's kind of journey because it starts off as something very innocent.
Unique Approaches in Paranormal Shows
00:32:22
Speaker
An email is sent to an old email address from a group of paranormal investigators that set up, you know, a trashy investigation thing when they were like 16.
00:32:36
Speaker
And they never shut the email address down for their paranormal site. But they'd all moved on, got married, moved on with their lives and everything. And then one of them happened to check the emails as a one-off thing just to see if there was anything in there. And in there was an email from a guy who claimed to have cave-dwelling goblins
00:33:00
Speaker
stroke alien beings in his back garden that were terrorizing his family and was like, please, can you help me? I'm really freaked out. They're tapping on the windows at night. Oh, and we have to watch that. So it's sort of like more of an alien type thing, really. And he sends them some evidence over of pictures of these like three-toed
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, and it's very, very much related to the Kentucky Goblin story, it's in the same area, etc. So what starts off as this, and so the cameras follow it through on what starts off as this investigation into strange little creatures. But then it morphs into something much bigger and weirder and
00:33:56
Speaker
There's loads of Esther's methods in there. As soon as you said goblin, I was in. Yeah. It's how it all relates to the Mossman prophecies and it's the synchronicities that will blow your head. Okay. Watch it. It's on YouTube for free. Okay, even better.
00:34:24
Speaker
So is there any other paranormal sort of documentary while we're talking about it? Is there any other recommendations for paranormal series or documentaries or anything like that? Because there is one that I've seen that got me onto the Estes Method as well. And for the life of me, I can't remember what it is. You've forgotten.
00:34:50
Speaker
I'll have to find this on Amazon Prime. Let me try and find it. And basically these group of people get together and they start to communicate with
00:35:01
Speaker
the other side, basically, and they, it's a documentary again, and it talks about their experiments, and they actually have an ongoing communication with, with the other side, basically in this group of people
00:35:22
Speaker
that have passed on. So while we're talking about it, I will Google it. But it's where the Estes method first came to my prominence. And it's phenomenal. It's got certain clips of audio and video of what they've captured at the time in the room. And it was a specific room. And they had this ongoing communication.
00:35:52
Speaker
So yeah, I don't know if anybody's seen anything like that or anybody's got any recommendations like that, because I'm banged up for stuff like that. I'll be honest, I don't watch a ton of paranormal stuff, mainly because of that and B because, much to do with the burnout sort of thing, after doing it, I don't really want to watch other people's stuff either. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's just a bit like, ugh.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah, there's nothing that I'd particularly recommend apart from Hellier. Okay. Yeah. Season two starts off even weirder because they got... Is it another email start of season two? Yeah. And you haven't even finished wrapping up season one.
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah, season two kind of starts while they still haven't released season one yet. So then you sort of see that get released during the film in season two. And then the sort of the feedback and that from season one, as they're investigating season two, it's just connect to season one. It's it's really it's mean to watch it. I didn't know you haven't seen it, Greg. It's where I haven't. It's on Greg and Dana Newkirk. They're just
00:37:02
Speaker
Really, really great. And their podcast, Haunted Objects Pod, it is really good, so I'd recommend watching. Yeah, I was watching one of theirs before actually on the Zach Bagans box that they got hold of. So yeah, I just started to watch that before, before I jumped on this actually.
00:37:24
Speaker
Okay, I will check that out later. I'm going to watch Hell You again because I think I watched it for a while. It's one of those though, you'll watch the first episode and then you'll have to watch the next 10 because you won't be able to stop. So yeah, move some space in your diary to watch it.
00:37:45
Speaker
I get what you mean though, Mike. It's difficult. Like I used to run a cupcake business and a cake business. And if anybody said to me about doing cakes or watching cake programs, I fuck off. I ain't got time. I want to know.
00:38:01
Speaker
No passion to that at all. So I feel you there. I feel you there. And as I'd say from starting to do this, I'm a very firm believer that unless you're actually there and experiencing it for yourself, you can't guarantee that what you're being shown is real anyway. So even if it is one of the real paranormal channels on YouTube where next to nothing happens a lot of the time.
00:38:26
Speaker
I'm trying to Google what this program is called. You guys are going to have to carry on. Oh, I see the other program. Yeah, I want to watch it. It's amazing. I've got to find it. I've just typed in Etsy instead of Estus. That's a whole different type of program. Yeah, it is. I don't know. I don't know.
00:38:56
Speaker
I will continue searching guys while we're talking. Especially having the time and money and to be able to do like a heliotype investigation. Even without the camera just doing it for yourself and stuff. Just having the time to go out somewhere and dedicating like a couple of weeks or two a month to just one. We don't want to think and then obviously it's how it fades off to different things but just concentrating on one project and just doing that for that would be amazing.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So it's like all of these, it would just be great to just literally down tools and just spend your time doing it, wouldn't it?
Negative Energy and Demonology
00:39:36
Speaker
We all need a Robert Bigelow in our lives, don't we? We do. You can just bankroll it for us. Yeah. If you're on our page on.com to pursue the paranormal podcast. Oh my God, I can see the bloody...
00:39:55
Speaker
So anime, demonology, what's your opinions guys? Demonology. So we have spoken to a guy called... Nathaniel Gillis. Nathaniel Gillis, thank you Ash, you took the words right out of my mouth, who is a demonologist, claims to be a demonologist. Some of the stuff he was talking about, very fascinating, it's one of our early episodes.
00:40:22
Speaker
And I think if you've got things like ghosts, like hauntings and residual hauntings and stuff like that, I don't know why there wouldn't be the dark side of that.
00:40:40
Speaker
I know you've got the Ouija board and people saying that you don't know what you're inviting in. You might get a demon or whatever. But I do think that there must be a dark and a light as there is in human life. There's always nice people, horrible people, that kind of thing. So it stands to reason for
00:41:03
Speaker
for me that this demon, fallen angels some of them call him, weirdly he linked these fallen angels and demons to the grey aliens and said that these grey aliens are actually demons and that's why their pictures of them are in historical
00:41:26
Speaker
images and such like that there there's almost an alien quality to some of these things. So that was quite an interesting take from him. So I think yeah demonology and you use a horror movie is not a horror movie without some kind of demon in it. So I know Hollywood fantasizes it a bit. But I can't see any reason why this why it wouldn't be this this dark side. What do you think? Do you think demon demons are a dark side? Do you think they're bad?
00:41:58
Speaker
Who do you mean? I do. The first haunted place that I kind of became aware of, ghosts per se, which got me into the paranormal side of things, there was definitely different types of spirits there that I interacted with. Some were mysterious type that you would guess, I say poltergeisty,
00:42:25
Speaker
in nature but there was areas in that place and times that things made my skin crawl that there was definitely something there that was not good. Whether you call that a demon I don't know but certainly an energy or a spirit that was negative not positive and I had interactions
00:42:54
Speaker
with those particular beings and they weren't positive interactions. There was a very sulfur smell associated with that. It just made the hair stand up on your arms that you knew, within you that something wasn't right there in that particular place and time. I don't have a name for what it is, whether you would call it.
00:43:25
Speaker
a poltergeist and a demon in terms of the activity there, but they were distinct. They were distinctly different, good and bad. You would describe it in a very loose sense of the term. And when we actually got the church involved, because things got so bad in this particular building at the time, to come and help with some of the paranormal stuff that was going on there, because it just blew my head and I didn't know what to do.
00:43:56
Speaker
The lady from the Catholic Church who came in was able to pinpoint exactly where those dark entities, as she referred to them, were without being prompted by anyone. And that's really what got me into this and started my fascination with it, that the fact that she could pinpoint that without having to be told, because she picked up on those strange, dark energies
00:44:25
Speaker
There was something not right there. There was something unnatural. And funnily enough, the lady from the church who came in said that actually it was a member of my staff that she believed had been using Ouija boards in that building that had opened up some sort of way for the bad spirits to come into the place. And she was very clear on her opinion around that, which I just was fascinated with, really.
00:44:55
Speaker
So do I believe there is the dark side to that? Definitely because I have felt it and experienced it. I don't like to label it with it. Is it an angel? Is it a demon? Because I don't really know. I just know that there's a good and there's a bad feeling that you can get with it and I've experienced both. That's the way I look at it.
00:45:21
Speaker
But I wasn't very impressed with the Pope's Exorcist, the new film with Russell Crowe in, I have to say, while we're talking about, you know, demonology. I was very let down by that. I was really quite looking forward to seeing it, but I was not very impressed. But that's just a bye-bye. As you say, Greg, Hollywood likes to really big up the, you know, the demons that crawl up the walls backwards and, you know,
00:45:50
Speaker
and all the great special effects that go with it. I've never seen any of that in real life. My own experience has been from a feeling.
00:46:00
Speaker
experience of it but it certainly was not a positive experience in some particular circumstances. I was going to say obviously you mentioned the Catholic Church there and there is always that connection with demons and religion, whatever religion is, it's quite a part of all religions
00:46:25
Speaker
contact Ash, I was a young manager in a place that had things that were moving around and banging and clanging and very strange things floating towards me that I was seeing for the first time in my life as a you know in my early 20s and I didn't know what to do and I'm guessing the only reason my contact is the Catholic Church, I mean I'm not religious at all, it is through what you see on the Italian films and stuff because you expect you know
00:46:54
Speaker
them to come and fix it for you, and actually they did, as it did, that happened. It's been, it's my advice, all different religions have all got some type of demon, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, they all have what they would call demons. So my kind of thought around that is, is that because religion has just been a part of human culture for centuries?
Religion's Role in Demonology
00:47:17
Speaker
Or is it something that is born out of religion? Is it actually intertwined? Or is it just
00:47:26
Speaker
Cosmology has been a part of our culture. It's just their version of something that's always around us anyway, regardless of religion. Like it's not a religious thing. Does that make sense? I don't know.
00:47:39
Speaker
Maybe, maybe. What would you think, Mike? First of all, I think if Nat wants to talk about it, you should definitely do an episode entirely with her and a deep dive on that first experience. Because from what you just said there, I definitely want to know more. It sounds mental. It's an interesting story.
00:47:59
Speaker
It sounds and especially as from what I'm about to say that I've never experienced anything negative whatsoever. So I don't necessarily believe in evil spirits or demons. I just believe in if they are spirits of human beings, there's dickhead human beings, or mischievous human beings or human beings who like to go I'm evil, I'm a demon or whatever, you know. I don't think there's there's merit in what Ash was saying about that they crop up in sort of all world religions.
00:48:29
Speaker
I don't necessarily know if that's a way of explaining something they couldn't explain or a control tool. Do you know what I mean? Like the concept of hell in Christianity that could just be a control tool of if you're naughty, you'll go to this place. That's not very nice, you know?
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, I just I don't know like I'm reading a book at the moment that's about demonology and as someone who's never experienced anything negative I'm just like This just it all seems a bit far-fetched for me, but I don't know maybe I'll have that experience one day where something feels horrible and
00:49:08
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you never know. That's if you don't get burnout first. We can only hope, hey. So I found the link to that episode or that documentary. I've just put it in the chat for the podcast. It's actually, whilst it's the Estes Method as well, they use something called the Skoll Experiments.
00:49:31
Speaker
So the synopsis for this is breakthrough scientific evidence of the afterlife, scholarly experiments. Five years, a group of mediums and scientists witnessed more phenomena than in any other experiment in the history of the paranormal, including recorded conversations with the dead, written messages on sealed film, video of spirit faces and even spirit forms materializing.
00:49:56
Speaker
Oh, I'll give that a watch. It's really, it's not a new, it's 2010, but it's good. It got 6.2 on IMDB. And if anybody goes through IMDB ratings, if you can get certainly above six, it's going to be half decent. You get above seven, it's decent. Eight and nine, you'll get into legendary status. But there is a second one that I've put up just around documentaries and these programs. I know we just talked about the fact that the
00:50:26
Speaker
paranormal program is a bit dull now. There's a second one on Netflix that again I've put the link to and it's called The Devil and Father and Moth. Oh my god there's an exorcism that takes place. It's a documentary exorcism that takes place and if you take it for what it is, the woman's voice and the sounds that come out of her mouth are
00:50:53
Speaker
are like something out of a Hollywood horror film it's a really interesting like I do this exorcism in this room full of friends and family and she she makes some weird noises not gonna lie
00:51:10
Speaker
So there's a couple there. The first one is called, I can't even remember, what did I do? UFO TV presents the afterlife investigations. That's the one. And it's you rained in, so anybody can watch it. And then the second one is the devil and father on morph, which is
00:51:30
Speaker
brilliant. This old father, Gabriel Amorth, performs his ninth exorcism on an Italian woman. It is in Italian with subtitles, so you have to go with that, but you don't need subtitles for what she says. Tying that conversation back into demonology that we were just talking about,
00:51:51
Speaker
It also, and this is my skeptical brain looking at things, but it also baffles me when I see interviews with exorcists from the Catholic Church and they're like, oh, demons definitely exists. Can you hear me? I don't know. Apparently Greg can't hear me, but I'll carry on anyway. I can hear you. Okay. When you see exorcisms with Catholic priests and they just go,
00:52:19
Speaker
Oh yeah, demons definitely exist. Hexisms are a real thing. This sort of thing. And they're so forthright with it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Either this is difficult to sort of concentrate well. We're having technical difficulties, but... I say like, it's just like, I can't map the facts for them. It's just, this is a thing. It's, it's in the scripture. It's just a part of life. And like I say, we're now this experience where
00:52:46
Speaker
that the delay from the Catholic Church came and was able to, was able to come and find where the negative energy was and get rid of it. So it's like, what teachings are they going through to A, understand demons in speech marks, as we put it, and then to get rid of them. It's just like, I want to go to that lesson. I want to go to that Bible study session where the
00:53:16
Speaker
learning that this type of stuff. What I also found interesting is it was a woman who came. You expect, I don't know, well, I expected a man with a black hat and a black case like on the original Exorcist movie to turn up to do it, but it was a lady in a great big long mark from the church who was just amazing.
00:53:47
Speaker
If I hadn't experienced it myself, I would never have believed it because it was, she pinpointed everything with precision and accuracy and told me exactly what had gone on and what, you know, have you seen this? Have you seen that? Have you seen the other? And I was just like, yeah, she freaked me out.
00:54:09
Speaker
big style. That's very weird. Yeah. Wow. Also, what you said about she turned up and went, Oh, there's evil in this area. There's even was able to pinpoint it. That's very, in my mind, that's very similar to a medium turning up. Yeah, I'm going, Oh, there's something, you know, I mean, there's something here. But you could feel it. You could sense it wasn't right in
00:54:38
Speaker
certain areas that would just make your skin crawl. It's hard to verbalize that sense and that experience that I experienced there. Yeah, crazy times. But that's what got me down this whole rabbit hole. So I'm guessing it happened for a reason. And actually, I was told at the time that the reason
00:55:06
Speaker
that a lot of this was happening because of me, because I was able to, although I didn't know it at the time, to be able to communicate and feel some of these feelings that were going on. And this random lady who was visiting one day, I was sat on my chair in my office, small little office, and she was looking behind me and there was nothing behind me apart from like a wall.
00:55:32
Speaker
And I just kept looking behind me and I was like, what are you looking at? And she was talking to me about something completely different and she just kept staring behind me and I said, why are you staring behind me? What are you looking at? And she went, you've seen things here, haven't you, Natalie? And I was just a bit freaked out. I was like, what do you mean? And she said,
00:55:57
Speaker
You've seen the move around here haven't you and they're here because of you they're trying to communicate with you because they've got something to say and they know you can listen you just don't know you can hear it yet.
00:56:09
Speaker
very freaky. And it's not to get too interviewee with yourself. That is like something that has carried on as you've continued to investigate. Yeah. But you don't, okay, so do you consider yourself to have some sort of intuition or be a form of sensitive?
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know what the word is for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, apply whatever you want to it, right? Some people call themselves medium, some people call themselves whatever. Yeah. Interesting. And actually, it then got me thinking to experiences I'd had as a child and as a teenager, things that I'd experienced that I kind of just shoved to the back of my mind and thought, Oh, I just must be imagining stuff. And actually, I probably wasn't. And it sort of all sort of knitted itself together.
00:56:56
Speaker
really through that. But that's the only way I can describe it is there was in some areas a sense of good and in areas a sense of bad in terms of strange phenomena that was going on. So if we want to label it demons, then that's probably what I experienced. It was definitely a negative force.
00:57:26
Speaker
you know, and not something I particularly want to experience again. I have felt those strange feelings of that negativity since, but not in such a strong way that I did back then in 19, no, maybe 2001, 2002, this was. Never as strongly as I did there.
00:57:54
Speaker
So I would definitely say there's something in it because I've experienced it myself. Yeah, not to be too cryptic, but this is definitely a conversation we should pick up when not on a podcast because I'd quite like to pick your brain about of what you've just said. Okay. From personal experiences as well, which talking about synchronicity, certain things seem to line up with what you've said. So I'm like, okay.
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Talking about synchronicity. So we, for our Patreon exclusive episode last week, we spoke to Jeremiah Dorff from What If They're On podcast about conspiracy theories.
Experiencing Synchronicity
00:58:39
Speaker
And he said that he was working in North Carolina and Charlotte
00:58:46
Speaker
Weirdly, he knows the guys from Dockside Media that we've spoke to many times, Tyler and Chris, weirdly, from the same place. Weirdly, I was going to ask earlier on whatever happened to Tyler and Chris because they've not been around for a while. No, they're still doing their thing. They're still doing their thing. And then we interviewed Victoria Bell the other day, and she's from North Carolina and Charlotte.
00:59:15
Speaker
round. Well, she's not. She's from Moldova, but Charlotte where she's chosen to live, right? Yeah. So how is that? We, we, we spoke to Philip Kinsella and he lived at a time, a place outside Bista, uh, in the same village that I spent most of my youth in Chesterton just outside Bista.
00:59:43
Speaker
Wow. Super random. And there was that spate on the podcast as well where you talk to someone and be like, this is such and such from Wantage, Massachusetts. And you'd be like, oh, Wantage is two minutes down the road from where Greg, or something weird like that. It was. It was.
00:59:59
Speaker
And mine and Ash's local MPs were the shadow ministers for the same department they were responsible for. Yours was the actual minister, mine was the shadow minister. Obviously. The Tory beep and obviously mine was the Labour one. So it's the same job but mine was the shadow version. Out of all the MPs and all the different
01:00:20
Speaker
roles they could have. It was the same jobs. And they were the ones that were responsible for the military and maritime that dealt with safety. I love synchronicities. Love them. It's definitely funny. This could mean nothing. This is just a random thing that happened last weekend. I was sat around watching a video on YouTube about time signatures in music.
01:00:46
Speaker
And at one point, the guy talked about it, said about 2.11 as a time signature. I was like, okay. And as he said it, I glanced up at our TV in the living room. So Patsy had something on the TV. I was looking at my laptop. And on the TV, she's watching a play through a horror game. And as the guys walked into the elevator, there's two panels with buttons from 1 to 11.
01:01:07
Speaker
And I was like, 211, 211, what the fuck? It's mad. And again, there could be absolutely nothing in that. That could be the human brain going, oh, there's a pattern here.
01:01:17
Speaker
But it was just one of those weird things that I was like, of all the times, I look at the TV screen and 211's on there and mate's talking about musical time signature. I was like, fuck. And an unusual time signature if it's a 211. Yeah. The weirdest thing was, the example he said was like, oh, you'll know this from Hayyar by Outcast. And it wasn't until he explained it that I was like, what the fuck? Because it's like, not to bore you all with musical time signatures.
01:01:44
Speaker
It was like two four fours, and then half of a bar again. And when he explained it, I was like, oh my God, that's so weird. Yeah, I've never thought about it that way. Up to that point, he's like, this is four four, this is five four and five four sounds a bit funky. And then he's like, this is two 11, and you'll know it from here. And I was like, huh? That's mad. I don't think I've ever, ever, ever played a piece of music in two 11 ever. No, no, it's super uncommon, right?
01:02:13
Speaker
Sorry to digress, guys. I've no idea what you're talking about. It's good to see that Nat's a music nerd as well, though. Yeah, I'm a musician. Other topics of synchronicity, and why you mentioned Jeremiah Dorf, as well. When we were recording that Patreon-only episode, Patreon.com for an absolute panel podcast. Sorry.
Significance of Coincidences
01:02:37
Speaker
We were talking about the moon hoax conspiracies, and we were talking about, obviously, Apollo 11 going to the moon.
01:02:43
Speaker
and we recorded it and we did talk about this on the podcast last week but just because that's when we found out about it but we just this is day one of our three it wasn't planned it was just let's talk about this conspiracy because we had different ones we want to talk about at about three or five or six we want to talk about we only end up doing one because we sort of went that deep onto it which is the moon landings we recorded that on the sunday and then as just later on i was just thinking it's around this time we went to the moon like
01:03:09
Speaker
It was the anniversary. It was July. And it was the day April 11th took off for that exact day that we were recording the episode about it all being a hoax. Obviously, it is a coincidence, but it makes you think, was it meant to talk about that on that day? It's just one of them weird feelings.
01:03:28
Speaker
And again, as the old adage that you guys cottoned and then I've repeated endlessly, when it's something's too coincidental to be coincidental, right? And things start, like synchronicity, things start lining up and you're like, probability wise, it's probable but very fucking unlikely.
01:03:49
Speaker
Yeah. And we're talking about that on that episode as well, about coincidences and stuff. And that happens despite a complete chance. Yeah. Or was it? Or was it? Yeah, it was. It was literally Ash messaged me and he's like, did you do that on purpose? So I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't even realise. Mad. Yeah, crazy.
Birthday Shoutout and Humor
01:04:14
Speaker
Cool. Well, I think, uh, isn't Breguet anyhow, so I want to discuss. There is one, one, one large thing before we wrap up. Um, you have to say big happy birthday to my, my, my best friend in the fucking, in the podcast group and long time list, Nick Thompson. Yes. Happy birthday, Nick. Happy birthday, Nick. Happy birthday, buddy. Not entirely sure how old you are.
01:04:45
Speaker
So coincidentally, we were talking about birthdays. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I may put you about 20 years older than you are, but I think, Nick, you're about my age. So that puts you somewhere between 35 and 36. He's younger than that.
01:05:13
Speaker
Is he? I think so. That was well, Nick. Let us know, Nick, if you've managed to get this far. Cool, cool, cool, cool. So is there anything else that we want to cover off before we say goodbye for now? Sorry, I missed a few, for anybody, I missed a few minutes of that because my headphones went awry, so I went silent.
01:05:42
Speaker
But yeah, I'd just like to thank you both and Michaela who left us a little bit earlier for coming on yet again and speaking with us and getting your thoughts out on the paranormal and the state of the paranormal and whatnot. It is always a good chance.
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:06:00
Speaker
It's good to just air some frustration sometimes, because it does feel like there's a lot of times in the paranormal world that we're just
01:06:11
Speaker
We're waiting for that something big to happen and it never really comes. And like you say, but then some people come and you just get stuck back into it. And the interest is there again, but I get you. I get you about the burnout. It's, the struggle's real. But yeah, thank you very much for joining us and we will speak to you guys next month.
01:06:38
Speaker
Nice one. Cheers guys. Thank you very much. Bye.