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Ep 150 - UFO Disclosure & Paranormal Link with Ronnie Kinsella, experiencer and author
192 Plays7 days ago
Ep 150 - UFO Disclosure & Paranormal Link with Ronnie Kinsella, experiencer and author
Author and "Twin Souls" podcast co-host Ronnie Kinsella joins us to discuss his thoughts on UFO / UAP disclosure, what that might mean, the darker side of the paranormal and shares his own experiences
Title music by Steve Yarwood and Ambienfinity
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Transcript
Welcome Back, Greg!
00:00:00
Speaker
almostric but i don't know how to white those or what it was it wasn't an airplane it was not in your plane it was so awful You're listening to Pursuit of the Paranormal Podcast with your hosts, Ash Ellis and Greg Tomlinson. Good evening, Greg. How's How's it it going? Hey, going? Ash. How's it going? I'm good. And I actually need to address a and little issue with the podcast that has been raised to me by quite a few people. I've had lots lots of of queries, queries, emails, emails, messages, messages, comments, comments, because because somebody I've had made an appearance in last and our last episode. That has become quite a surprise to a lot of our listeners. Who's that? Just to confirm that it wasn't an odd episode. That was a brand new recorded episode.
00:01:04
Speaker
And just to squash all the rumours, all the questions, which I appreciate.
Introducing Ronny Kinsella
00:01:10
Speaker
People obviously listen and pay attention, which is always good to know when people are actually asking me things about the episode. So that's really good. But yeah, Greg, what are you still doing here? Why are you back on a new episode? I'm back. I'm back after a sabbatical. Would you call it a sabbatical? A hiatus, maybe? A hiatus of 12 months. I'm back. A lot of things happened off air. And I'm back. I had to, yeah, I won't go into it. But those that know, they know. But yeah, I'm back. I'm back, and I'm excited to be back. So here I am. And it wasn't an old episode, although we did talk about old stories of ours. So yeah, it's great to be back. Yeah, it's good to have you back. And yeah, I got lots of messages and stuff, questioning it all. So that's good. This is our first interview together back. Yes. And we have a great guest lined up.
UFO Phenomena and Politics
00:02:10
Speaker
An old friend, someone that I met for the first time four years ago-ish, I think. It seems quite a while ago at the first UFO-identified minicon in Preston. Helped out with the setting up and stuff with us as well, which is awesome. So welcome to the show, Ronny, or Ronald Kinsella. How are you doing? Yeah, very well, thank you, Greg and Nash. And just call me Ron if you wish. It's better, just call me Ron. The only people who called me Ronald was my grandfather. He was in the army, by the way. So, you know, he's the only one who's granddad. Well, welcome along. Thanks for joining us on what is our first recording as a pair interviewing for about a year. So thank you. Thank you very much for having me on. And it's always interesting to discuss the UFO subject. And before the show, we were just briefly tapping on politics, which we won't get involved with. But you can understand that the UFO phenomena is quite similar in that respect regarding reviews from people. I mean, you can step out of line through a narrative and they'll come after you, you know, batons and all sorts. But I've tried to remain neutral, but there are a number of things that I don't agree with, certainly regarding the UFO phenomena. But it's a fascinating subject, along with the paranormal, the ghosts and the poltergeists. And of course, you know, the interdimensional hypothesis is fascinating, very fascinating. Definitely, and I guess being a very hot topic, the election results were today as we were recording this, and the now president-in-waiting Donald Trump, he did say in the campaign that he would release files, UFO files?
Government UFO Disclosure - Reality or Myth?
00:04:04
Speaker
Yes. I believe, good whether to see you have that does happen whether it goes back on that I could just imagine seeing him like a bull in a china shop and he's in those filing cabinets for throwing all the files out looking for it and even if he saw the spacemen it it probably wouldn't bad night look well, they're pretty, aren't they? Let's go and have a Costa. Or Starbucks, in their opinion. Starbucks would go for Starbucks. Let's hope he can do something, you know? Let's hope. I think out of the two runners, I think he's the most likely to push forward the UAP phenomena compared to Kamala Harris. I think he's brazen enough to be, he wants to be the one that does it and he'll be like, I was the first to do it. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I don't think anything surprises him at all. Nothing would surprise him. But on that note, I do actually believe they do have the remnants of ships or saucers or whatever they are, along with the pilots. I mean, the congressional hearing, which is so drawn out, so drawn out. And I'll give the Senate this. They are trying to unlock this kind of mystery but the problem is that the the aerospace companies or whoever owns those fossilized remnants all they will do is just shift them through the time being wasted in these congressional debates hearings and investigations that's going to move them all so when they do the power to, you know, claim disclosure or push for disclosure, it'd be like on the X-Files, there'll be no proof left, nothing, it's all gone. You know, they're not going to disclose this. They are not. We've been, I felt personally, I felt throughout the world a suppression growing. And I say that respectfully, a suppression, a a darkness growing and I felt it perhaps about six years ago I think it began this darkness and what it is is deceit and the clamping down of opinion and this is dangerous because you know they can they can fight and try and enforce this for so long but then it will bust it's like the dam with a hole in it. It will get bigger and bigger. And they may think they become complacent with their opinions and their views on how to deal with us, especially with disclosure, which will never come from them, certainly.
Technology and Media's Influence on UFO Narratives
00:06:38
Speaker
But they have to be very careful because, you know, free will is a very dangerous thing. It can become a very dangerous thing through their eyes. You know, and I often wondered, before we move on to the UFOs, the fact that a certain individual who I do have some respect for, although I'm not sure how to take him, is enforcing a cybernetic future or plans for a cybernetic future. That means to say that to place chips within the brain. This cannot be allowed. It cannot be allowed because they will bust it up first of all, as they usually do, the benefits, the wonderful things this wonder chip can do, but the dark aspects of it are completely untold, certainly from their point of view, because this will be control. Once they get in there, that's it, they've got you, control. I think George Orwell wrote a book on it, 1984, although I think it was originally 1948, wasn't it? But it didn't pan out, so they changed it, I believe. But that was about control. So we've got all this against us regarding the UFO and the paranormal aspect. And of course, as we know, the media in the past have completely made a circus show of it, and they have done, so people were frightened to talk about it. Well, that was the idea, you see. So if you spoke about it, you were laughed at or mocked. I wonder why. It's something they know, I think, or perhaps they're a little wiser. There's something going on here which they don't wish to address. So on that note, just going back a slight bit, do you think that disclosure will come from the people rather than the government? Because like you say, if they're all about control and controlling the narrative, there's a lot of people at the moment that are happy to talk. You've got the whistleblowers, got the congressional hearings like you mentioned, but that will only go as far as the government really want it to go. And do you think that it's going to be disclosure via the people or the powers? I think the people are certainly pushing for it, but you see they're up against a great power and this power has money and authority and that's trying to bust through it is virtually going to be impossible for us. The people will try but there will never be disclosure as far as the powers that be are concerned, never.
The Credibility of UFO Figures
00:09:15
Speaker
I don't feel that at all. They don't want us to know that there could possibly be a greater power above us. That would undermine them somewhat, wouldn't it? Just a touch. So these whistleblowers, like Elizondo and Grush, people like that, or particularly, let's kind of focus on Elizondo. His book's recently come out. He gets kind of of a a lot lot of of flack. flack. He He has has his his supporters, supporters and and he he has has people people that that say say he's he's not not totally totally truthful truthful in in what what he he says. says. It's It's all all kind kind of of grifty. grifty. Where do Where do you you kind kind of stand? What do you reckon to kind of what he's said over the past five, six years since he sort of came out? I think, I'm going to tread on toes saying this, I'm going to say it. There must be some element of truth to what he's suggesting And even if it's hearsay from other people, this is how we go in our research. We can't actually infiltrate bases or offices with, you know, filing cabinets. And we can't do that. So we rely on information. Yes, it could be soiled. It might be elaborated upon, but there might be some truth with this. This is the trouble with the subject. There is no proof. We have nothing. But it is a reality because I have seen it myself. I have seen it up close, up close. I've seen it. We have something with us, a power or a force or, you know, a number of things which occur, which are beyond our complete science. We have no way of replicating it. But I do think there may be some truth to his book. Yes, absolutely. Just as there is with Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, when you look at that and you watch the programs, yes, they're doled up. You know, sometimes they panache it up a little bit. They have to in order to solve the program. But a lot of that, I do believe, has happened. But the controversy starts. You have it with everything. You have it with Roswell, the 1947 crash, which I believe did occur. That certainly did. And of course, the military admitted they had in possession a flying disc at the time. They admitted. Remember, this very rarely happened, especially just after the Second World War. Then they retracted the statement to suggest that they had in their grasp for weather balloons, Mogul weather balloons. Of course, they were smart in clearing it up. It was the first major wave of secrecy, which they used that as a blueprint for other things that happened. They just cover it all up. Silence is golden. You know, we say nothing. You know, we only have one policy. Deny everything. That's a line from the X-Files, by the way. But you see that, yes, so, and that is muddied. The pool is completely blackened. And, of course, they love it because when you have book after book of speculation, you know, it did happen, it didn't happen. I saw a book, and I've said this no end of times, called Roswell, The Truth. There is no truth. There is no truth to it whatsoever. We have no proof. Absolutely none. The truth is based on that author's narrative and what he has learned, just as other authors have their own opinions and their own research. So we are none the wiser, but they gave it out, they gave it away, because they announced they had a possession. These are fully trained men, I would imagine they'll be able to determine the difference between a flying disc and a weather balloon. We'd like to think so. I think you're right. And now we're so far down the line since 1947 that the people that were there are not around really anymore. There's only probably, I don't know how many are left that were originally there. So it then becomes this folklore, essentially. And that's what they want. They muddy the wall. They tell the truth, then they tell the untruth. Essentially, the next day, I think it was, they said yes, then the next day, no. What better cover story is there than that? They go, well, yeah, and no. It becomes this, well, like you said, muddies the water. And that's perfect, because people then don't know what to believe who
Historical UFO Events and Media Influence
00:13:29
Speaker
to believe uh and people will come out and say i like i saw it or i saw the the remnants of the the aliens that crashed and other people were saying oh it was um cute like dummies or whatever from the the flights and it just becomes who do you believe at that point you believe everybody and nobody really washed away and the thing is I did researching this the UFOs the saucers of the time that were very very in vogue in the 50s certainly the 50s and 60s the the sauc sources. It got me thinking, you know, the Roswell was the crown jewel that set me off on this because I smelled a rat there with what they suggested, the military announcing that very statement. They published that statement and then they retracted it. But it got me thinking because I then thought how very bizarre this whole thing is because, you know, when you read, when you go back in time, certainly to the 1890s, the wave, certainly in America, the wave of exotic airships that were flying above civilian airspace. We had airships. They had been designed. I think a French engineer, I can't remember his name, I've done a feature on him. I do apologise, but there's so many names in there. He developed a controllable, a steerable, dirigible, but these ones were a little bit more advanced, very exotic. And, you know, one crashed, allegedly, leaving a body. Again, like Roswell, we have no way of determining this is true or not. I think it smashed into Judge Proctor's land and destroyed his prized flowers, which he was most upset about. But the point is, it crashed. And there was a supposed entity. Some people say it's fake. It's been proved to be fake. They can't prove prove it it they can't prove that at all how on earth can they prove it was 1890 or we have documents documents from whom where is their narrative again this whole thing is steeped in mystery but what got me thinking was then uh this kind of tech exotic tech shifted to a more conventional saucer aspect. Kenneth Arnold coined the phrase flying disc or flying saucer. I think he coined the phrase after seeing them over the mountain, you know, those things that skipped along those disc things or kind of more or less like boomerang disky things but they were too thin to contain any pilots so it was coined there but then there was a whole craze of people seeing them or reporting them you know especially landing and they were mostly saucers so it appeared to me that either something is taking note of what we're building and pushing it just beyond those boundaries. So there's a little bit more outlandish, enough to actually confirm that it is exotic or not of our world. So we go to the saucer aspect. And one thing that interested me was the fact that I looked behind this. This is what I published in Illusions. The fact that they then, in the 50s, they all landed conventionally. They'd come down and their landing gear would come, the platform would, and people would walk up and greet the UFO North. Usually, more than not, they were Nordic blonde-haired, blue-eyed entities. I'm not denouncing this happened. It probably did. But the guise of it is very strange. And then we move on to Star Trek, which came out in the 60s. Gene Rodderby created this wonderful thing called Star Trek, where people were beamed up or teleported.
Cultural Impact on UFO Perception
00:17:17
Speaker
And I noticed more than not a trait following after where the method of adduction had shifted from conventional landing to actually being beamed up into the ships. So are we dealing with something psychological that is tapped into our minds, that is improvising? It would suggest, wouldn't it, stating that, that it kind of lacks imagination. It requires us to a degree to actually get a footing with these things and then building on them. You saw what I mean? I mean, it's only a hypothesis. It's just a hypothesis. I'm not denouncing that there are beings out there or, you know, that they're real. This is a reality. But it seems very strange. These were telltale signs to me that there's something with us, something else with us that could be a trickster. You know, and let we move on to the triangular ships. They shift again. The 90s, the 1990s, very, very popular. The triangular ships, certainly the Belgian UFO wave, the flap there with the triangular ships spotted by police officers as well, many police officers, to then retract more to the orbs, which we have at present, these shimmering lights. So I looked into this, and there are a number of inconsistencies in that department, you know, like people say they're coming from, you know, Zeta Reticuli, or they're coming from the Alpha Centauri, or whatever. But I kept thinking, well, there might be some, one or two, probably none, I don't know, but certainly something has taken note of it. And another thing about that, before I finish this actual segment, is the fact that you'll notice that the B movies we had at the flying saucers, they were all silver. It made sense, didn't it? It made absolute sense. It had to be silver. This alloy was a tough alloy that could deflect radiation to a degree. And yet our beloved friends that visited us had silver ships. Then they were silver. So it kind of sniffed suspects me because it almost appeared in vogue. If they were so advanced, they would have shields. They wouldn't always have to be silver, would they? If they were very advanced, I might be wrong or barking up the wrong tree. But it is an idea. It's good to just throw it out there. And this is what I do in illusions. I look at it from that point of view. It's kind of like, for me, on that kind of hypothesis, is they're showing themselves, whoever they are, in a way that we can kind of understand it so going back to the airships that was like the first time that we'd had something that was in the sky so for them to show themselves is something that the people of the time can relate to as if they shown like maybe a flying triangle in the late 19th century yeah be a bit too much room because they can kind of relate to it a bit more so it's kind of not as maybe not as shocking and that's why they kind of do it that way yes because also you're quite right ash because also uh in the time of the 1890s and they're they're onward the entity is more than not reported, I'm not just talking about UFOs, I'm talking about things that were more than not demonic. You had Spring Hill Jack, a demonic thing that could leap to great heights, and it terrorized women in London, I think Victorian London and all that, and you had goblins and things, and it just shifted. That's another thing. There was no consistency to the aliens themselves, never any real consistency until you reach later of the 20th century. Woody Streber's book, the communion book he published, had the picture of that grey on, didn't it? And my goodness, did that open eyes. But before that, they were Nordics, they were goblins. I mean, you had the Kelly, Kentucky case, you know, where they besieged this family in this farmhouse and, you know, provoked them, apparently. They could float about. When they were shot at, they'd bounce back and just return. You had them and you had even Vulcans. Philip Mantle's research has shown there was even jelly men, would you believe? They seemed to lack consistency until something became quite solid. It wasn't closing councils of the third kind, although they were beautifully portrayed, the greys there, very nice and very friendly. It was Whitley's book that provoked this enormous, enormous kind of reaction. And I was there to see it. I mean, you know, I noticed after that there were UFO magazines popping up everywhere with the familiar entities on there, which were then coined the Greys. So I wondered if this was our old friend or this force, you know, acting upon this. And not to say that the Greys are not unique in themselves. Certainly, I do believe the Betty and Barney Hill case of 1961, I believe. Kathleen Mardian's auntie and uncle who were abducted, taken by force against these entities that did resemble the Greys to a degree, they were like them. I'm not discounting that, but I certainly feel that there's something else with us because it opened up a plethora of encounters with these things after Whitley's book
Ronny's Personal UFO Experiences
00:22:46
Speaker
was published. You will notice the rise in personal books based on alleged abductions by the greys. I have never seen a grey person myself. Philip has. This is where people get confused. I have not seen them. Only in a vision. I've only seen them in a vision. I had, oh, some years ago. They showed me something, or whatever they were. I don't know what they are, but certainly they became very popular after Whitley's book was published. And people have argued, stating that, no, no, no, it was Closed Encounters. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. Well, they were very cleverly done. It was Whitley's book. So it's interesting, isn't it, how they now have become in vogue. You know, more than not, other aliens. They're one of the most popular. And you will find the most reported now. Definitely. I think you mentioned your brother, Philip, there. I think we kind of skipped the very start of the show, just kind of who you are and your history. Let's kind of bring you in on this point. Give us a bit of background on how you maybe first got disinterest, going back to being a kid. Well, I'm an identical twin. You call me Philip, that's fine, because most people do call me Philip. My grandfather used to keep calling me Philip. He said, no, you're not Philip, you're Ronald. He could never tell us apart. We were much more identical, I think, when we were younger. I'm an artist. I love drawing. And I love science fiction. This completely goes against you. Because when I saw these things when I was younger, you would be coined as being just imaginative. You know, this imagination though you're watching too much doctor who you've seen Star Wars it's all that it wasn't and that's what went against me because when I saw these things I didn't tell anyone it's only I think the only time I came out with it was in 2010 and that wasn't exactly the true date because it was 2012 because I was so passionate I'd seen something one of these triangular ships I had seen I had seen it overhead it was August 2010 it must have been between the 9th or the 12th of August. I saw it in broad daylight. It just casually crossed over the sky. The strange thing about this was, and I've reported this in that book, I wrote a book called Twin Souls that was eventually published by Kappel Band. They've gone out of business now. They've gone finished. But it was published as a paperback called Twin souls uh this triangular ship was enormous but it differed from the belgian wave because i've seen unsolved mysteries and i loved robert stack who hosted it we all love robert robert stack he's like your granddad isn't he when he comes on there looking all sinister it's like your grandfather he comes on wonderful, wonderful. And their triangular ships were narrow with sharp edges. The one I saw, I call it respectfully the Fat Triangle because it was extremely thick set, very thick set. And the corners were rounded. They were not sharp. They were beautifully rounded, thick set. I had a damn good look at this thing. I watched it. And it moved the speed of a conventional aircraft. It was huge, the size of a battleship, probably even bigger. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. The side I noticed from the grid to the sun, because all I could see was the side, the the belly and the rear as it moved on. I couldn't see the front. The side of it had these kind of grooves in it when the sun reflected on its side. It must have been afternoon, it was the afternoon. The sun reflected. I could see these grooves along the side but there was nothing on the belly, there was nothing on the rear as it moved away i could see the rear just think setting curves it looked to me of all things that had been dipped into a vat of tar and just shaped that way you know just molded and it just casually disappeared i had no compulsion no compulsion to fetch a phone to photograph it or film it i damn well wish i I had. I really do. Because people will say, well, why didn't you? I was mesmerized by it. I was completely mesmerized. Now, one thing that is interesting about this thing is it's only a bit later on I realized that when I saw it, where we lived, there were loads of birds everywhere, all over the place. When this thing passed, I don't think there was one bird at all. As for the sounds, I can't remember. I think they drowned out. I don't know. But then you question whether that's your mind, your adrenaline kicking in, doing something. I don't know. But certainly you can see, and there were no birds as it passed by and I kept thinking how the hell can a thing that size that looked like it weighed tons hundreds maybe thousands of tons just hang like that in the sky and it just drifted away now I got into an argument with some people about this when I was let's's say, a little bit less wiser, because when I put this online, this guy was adamant, it's military, it's military. And no matter what I said, it's military. I can affirm this right now. That technology was beyond anything we could ever dream of, military or not.
Challenges in UFO Research and Online Skepticism
00:28:23
Speaker
I'm not saying they're not smart, smart the the military clever but why on earth would they flaunt that kind of tech within civilian airspace they're too smart to do that you know they just wouldn't do it over a town no come on you know so this is what initially pumped my interest into this topic and of of course, it's like a minefield because you start finding all these clips on YouTube. And I'll say it respectfully that a lot of it is a lot of old nonsense. Back then when CGI, because I worked with CGI, I worked with digital artwork. A lot of my artwork is digital now. I've gone digital cleaner. I get an idea of how things move you know the CGI effects and I'll give you an example there was one video that made me annoyed it was this these people in this this the ocean and they're passing ball they're playing a ball game and all of a sudden these very three dodgy boomerangs come flying over and they they shoot off and i could tell straight away that's cgi bad cgi it's let's just put it this way it's it's no equivalence to the wonderful george lucas or steven spilberg they've got money they've got money to spend on fantastic effects this was as dodgy as hell well i put a comment on now i said well, like Sherlock Holmes, you've got to think about Sherlock Holmes. Well, the people are playing ball. These things are huge. One of them would have looked up. You would think someone would have seen it. No, they're just happily passing the ball as these things are coming overhead. No one's looking up and no one's pointing. My goodness, did I get some backlash for it? How did you know it was a fake? How dare you call it a fake? You get all this. And I said, I gave him the reasons that I've just specified to you, gentlemen. And he wasn't having it. And I thought, my goodness, you just can't win. And that is, aside all the aliens I've seen, you know, my goodness, I knew Skinny Bob was a fake straight away. CGI again, it's a stiffness to them, a slight stiffness. I think it's the first girl I've seen wearing an actual pullover. I wondered how he actually got it over his head. But even so, it's not to mock it or knock it. He was very clever and would have been marvellous in the documentary. There was one I was intrigued with that fascinated me, a fake again, where the greys, they cleverly got them walking out to meet evidently members of the government and you saw them striding across the land. Now I thought those shots were spectacular. Brilliant for a documentary, marvellous, the people behind it, wonderful, but my god wasting their time on actually proclaiming that these are genuine when they're actually fakes is not going to do them any good. I believe they've called them out as fake and people say, well, no one can prove it. They can because you can see, you can tell, you know, this is CGI, but very clever CGI. That looks much better than Skinny Bob. So I kept thinking, why didn't they just put their efforts into a documentary? They can make a lot of money from that, especially production companies looking for people like that, you know. So it's a minefield, you know, we come across this minefield. But my interest stemmed from seeing them myself, questioning it and knowing that this is not our tech. This is no way our tech at all. We couldn't produce anything like that. If we could, my goodness, Elon Musk's efforts to reach Mars would be short-lived with things like that because they could reach it within a couple of weeks, you know, a thing like that, and in comfort. Plenty of water, food, leg space, you know, you've got it. So there's nothing mentioned of it, and I kept thinking, and I did back then when I saw the fat triangle, and I say that respectfully,
00:32:04
Speaker
um be in the papers other people have seen it I think absolutely I think it's kind of frustrating because I sample what you saw and then you post stuff on the internet and get kind of derided for it the fakes that are on social media and video apps and stuff like this they get like they're the ones that get millions of views and hundreds of thousands of followers and it's like and it's like say it's fine if you say yeah this is when the entertainment like it is it is an art in itself to create this stuff like we've there's quite a few popular tiktoks where uh it's like paranormal activity happening in the house, like haunted house and stuff and they capture stuff. And it is good as I think they've done it well, but it's clearly fake. With a bit of sort of common sense, you know that it's fake. But they stick to the adamant of that it's real. They get defensive.
Exploring Paranormal Phenomena
00:33:03
Speaker
They get it's like but no then they've got millions of followers and millions of views it's like but the ones that are probably the cases that probably deserve like that's actually happening get just passed by and ignore it's just that's like a frustrating side of it in in this that's right i mean poltergeist surreal go surreal absolutely um i'll tell you a story about that. When I was naive and silly, being younger, Philip and I, Stephen Smallberg, had bought out the wonderful, his masterful Poltergeist film. And we used to stay with our grandparents, and they had this cheap bookshop in Hounslow. They weren't second-hand books. They were books that were overflowed from from the the stock and they sell them off cheap. We used to go there, used to love it. There was one in there about poltergeists and Philip bought it. It was a hardback and it's only about two pounds, I think probably one pound fifty then. This was in the 80s, early 80s and we came home to grandma and granddad and we showed granddad the book said we were laughing at it saying granddad look look what we bought well he went ballistic he went absolutely he took it off us and he said what that be held did you buy that for he took it off and well I was shocked I've never seen him so angry. But later on, he stated that they are real. And this is coming from a very rational-minded man who was in the army. They're real. You don't mess with the likes of them. And he told us to burn the book. Never read it. So we took it home. When we finished the holiday with them, we stayed with them. And there was an old wheelbarrow out there. We lived in Victorian house ourselves in Luton, up Haysbury Crescent. Lovely, lovely place. I loved Luton then, I loved it. The concrete jungle used to call it. So we'd be burnt the book in a wheelbarrow and we never read it and it always haunted me. That was an admission, an admission. So we had something through all the media throwing these accusations that it was fake. It wasn't. It was anything but. Just the same as the UFO phenomena, we realized that they were absolutely making a circus of it, when in actual fact it was a reality. They didn't want people to know. They don't want people to know. And another very interesting thing, which annoys me about schools, certainly when we were at school, the education. They taught us in history about our ancestors. Well, Philip and I went to the Festival of the Unexplained, which was wonderful. They were very lovely. They were very kind to us. But what was very interesting is we went to this kind of medieval settlement where nobles lived. I believe there was a noble lived there. And we entered the house. And there was this lovely old chap there with glasses. He looked like the master blackmailer from Sherlock Holmes. But, I mean, that's beside the point. He was a lovely, very educated man. He was there to help you with information if you needed it. Well, we walked through this door of this noble house, and my goodness, they were built well. I mean, their floorboards put us to shame, and look how old they are. Anyway, he said to the group, the party of people that came in, there were members, some of them were members of the Festival of Unexplainedained anyone here a witch you know anyone here a witch i'll do his voice and a lady said i'm a witch you can't be walk through that door anyway the wonderful chap showed us the door and this door has got symbols edged all along it these symbols and i i said said to him, what are
Public Reaction to Potential UFO Disclosure
00:36:47
Speaker
they for? To keep witches out. I said, you're telling me they were prevalent? Very much so. They couldn't get through this door. And do you know what? I thought, my goodness. Isn't it ironic? You don't learn things in school. You learn more from out school. And when you do, you learn it's more sinister, that there was a sinister part that these things were real, they did have witches. You know, so that is fascinating, not only my grandfather's admission, but you go to these places where you find that the very historians are telling you that witches were prevalent. You know, it's amazing, it's fascinating And that was very intriguing, that, you know, learning of that. And I remember setting off back to the manor, and it was on my mind. It was quite disturbing. You know, this is paranormal stuff. This is like, this is really weird. And he's just acknowledging everything you were taught at school. You know, they would not ever touch on that. Never, never. So I'm beginning to see later on, as you get older, you're beginning to realize that, thank goodness for all of them, and shout yourselves, that you're open and you're going to tell people about the past as well. You know, the historical elements that have been, shall we omitted that's mad it's very true do you think that I'd say there's that dark sinister side to it kind of bringing it back up to the disclosure side of things if say we did get the disclosure they had the say, yeah, this is real, how do you think the kind of general reaction would be from the public? Would people care? Would it be fear? Would it be, eh, keep on scrolling? I think, I sometimes wonder, and this is not me saying it, I've seen this online anyway, people stating that these alien invasion films are perhaps warming us up to the idea of being told that we're not alone. It's quite possible. It's very possible. As for how the people would react, I think they'd be okay. Some won't. We're talking about, respectfully, the religious part to that. Certain countries will see them as demons or certainly look upon them as demonic. But I think the people will be okay, probably astonished, but then angry, angry at the fact that this was withheld, you know, certainly as far back as Roswell. I mean, that ship crashed just after the Second World War. When it was coming to an end, it crashed. 1947, two years after the Great War. You know, so what the hell was that all about? You see, this will be in there, and I know that's a fact. That did crash. There was something there with the bodies. I'm not going to talk about the autopsy. We won't go down that road. But certainly I believe they had bodies there. There were pilots that had a smash, but they would be angry. And of course, I don't think the authorities will know how to deal with it. How are they going to disclose it? Hey, look, you know, we've been keeping it quiet for 100 years, but just to let you know that there's another species above us, another alien life force. Is that okay? But then more questions will arise from that because it will move on to the intentions. Were they sending spies? What are they here for? Do they want the Earth? I don't think they want the planet, personally, if that was the case, because logically, they could have done that many years ago. I mean, we are very hard to kill. As a species, we would be hard to kill. I'm talking about fully, 100%. There will always be survivors. There will always be. It doesn't matter if you're given an injection, if they bomb you with nukes, there will be survivors. If those guys did it, I grant you, it will be absolutely efficient, totally, so they don't want the planet. And that's more troubling to us. And I wondered about that, whether it's because there is a limited force here that's observing us or something else you know but as for how the people will react I think they would be astonished I would be if it if it came on the news I mean the media has a lot to be as we spoke for I know but they would announce it but then people won't believe it because, well, we've been lied to so many times on there. Is it a red herring? You know, is this going to be like the fake alien invasion and the saviors come and, you know, it's all well and good and you praise the saviors? I don't know. I don't know how they would react, but I think astonishment more than anything. It's not going to be like the War for Worlds, the radio broadcast by Orson Orson Welles it's not going to be like that people aren't going to tear out into the streets and start screaming I think we've come a long way from that that was the shock factor from HG Wells' novel The War for Worlds and it was brilliant he's a genius HG Wells I love that man I think most most of of us us love love him him. you But know but the the shock shock factor factor, I I think think, is is more more or or less less calmed calmed.
Generational Shifts and Internet's Role in UFO Awareness
00:42:06
Speaker
but But there there would would still still be be astonishment astonishment, I I think think. And then anger. So do you think, on this disclosure, we talked, I mentioned earlier, about the fact that people from the Roswell years, a majority of them are no longer around. You've now got these, the gen X's and gen whatever's millennials and whatnot that are growing up with this. So there's people being born now, even in the last few years that, although they might not know it now, but-year-olds six-year-olds that there's since they've been born there's always been talk of aliens uaps ufos whatever you want to call them yeah so that's just their that's part of the culture like kids that are now growing up they're never known not having the internet like when I was growing up no internet no mobile phones four channels on the tv so they don't have an appreciation of these times before so they're growing up with this as part of culture so there's talk of congressional hearings and obviously they're not old enough to know those now but when they start looking back at their history as they've been growing up there's there's never been a time where there's not been ufos talked about so their disclosure is it won't be anything to them really it would just be confirmation of everything that's been spoken about since they've been born yes that's a very good point uh Very good point, yes. The internet has helped with that as well because ironically it's completely, you know, it exploded the whole thing. And of course kids aren't stupid. They get hold of things. They all know about their explains, certainly from movies and they'll look into it on their smartphones and things like that. But yeah, that's absolutely a good point. Yeah. So basically more or less acclimatized to the idea of contact. Yes. I wonder what kind of contact. Without even knowing about it. Yeah. They don't know a time before it. I mean, the thing that makes it so peculiar to us and astonishing is that we are unaware of it. We see it, but we don't know what it is. If we became pally with them, it wouldn't matter, you know, you'd get used to it. It's, you know, compliance that plays a part, but you think, well, after that, what will there be? But there isn't. And that gives me reason to suspect this might be very unpleasant in ways. It's something Margaret Thatcher stated to Eugenina Bruni when she wrote that book, You Can't Tell the People. Apparently, Georgina Bruni, a journalist, went to see the Premier and she asked her, she actually got to ask about UFOs. And the Prime Minister stated to her, well, that's an interesting topic. Firstly, you'll need to get your facts right. But she knew no one could. So that was a clue, wasn't it? And then secondly, she said, once you do, you'll realize why we can't tell the people. That always haunted me. If that was said as haunting, because it doesn't sound very good to me. I believe that military, the military might be a little wiser to it, a little wiser. Certainly the aerospace corporations who might well have these fossilized remains of the ships and the pilots, you know, secreted away. But that always haunted me, you know. And are we really led to believe that they are what they appear to be? You know, automatically, immediately, we assumed that the pilots are the famous greys. But what if they weren't? What if there's something else? David Grush said something very interesting. These little snippets that come out, the things they say, it's very interesting. I think you might have noted this as well he called them non-human he didn't call them alien was it biologics now that is very strange i know we've had the uap the you see the whole definition of it has been changed from ufo identified flying saucer, to identified aerial phenomena. Why they've done that, I have no idea. But he made it quite clear that they're non-human. They didn't call them alien. Non-human. Now, that made me suspect they could be closer to home. What I mean by that is interdimensional or something else, or within the ocean, certainly, or Antarctica. I mean, this is from other people, people such such as as of course it's not from me I wouldn't have known unless I looked into it for the good people who have but certainly it just drives it a little closer to home and also it adds that edge of a haunting quality quality to to it it, non non-human-human. what What a a strange strange thing thing to to say say. what What a a strange strange words to use. I mean, people say, well, no, it's not. It just means they're not human. Why didn't they call them alien? Maybe that's part of the acceptance. As soon as you call them alien, you become, going back into the 80s and 90s, that you're like this, for want of a better phrase, you're crazy, you're talking about aliens, so by his careful wording, non-human biologics, he's saying that, yeah, there is a thing to them, they're not just these weird grey aliens. It's obviously saying they're a grey alien. Stigmatism. He loses credibility straight away. Yes. As such, because he's this top guy who's read into all these secret programs, spoken to loads of people. And if he comes out and says grey aliens or or aliens I think it diminishes what he's trying to achieve maybe to try and put this more serious note on the subject to move away from like they've got rid of UFO that was a term that people started banding around said on the front of the Daily Star Daily Sports saying, saying I saw a UFO on Mars and all that kind of stuff. So you move away from that and you call it UAP now, that's got more sensible in air quote sort of tone
Connections Between UFOs and Paranormal Phenomena
00:48:36
Speaker
about it. And then to move away from aliens to non-human biologics, it kind of, it removes that sort of in my mind again hypothesizing there that it removes that kind of stigma of the old days yeah that you saw aliens okay no i didn't i saw a non-human biologic okay oh okay and it doesn't sound quite as nut jobby as people would have said if you said i've seen an alien way back when say in the 60s you saw an alien you would have these like you said these silver discs landing on the the white house with the legs coming out little green men coming out a little green men coming out i like that i'm sorry that adds substance to what you've just said that even makes it even more haunting because they're actually stating that so it's designed to remove the stigma that's frightening but exciting also because you know the fact i I'm love it i i'm. the paranormal side of the two of me and Ash. So Poltergeist and everything, you had me hooked on Poltergeist. And the other concerning bit to me around this whole paranormal sort of subject is the fact that despite paranormal activity and polarized activity in particular, playing a part in a lot of people's experiences growing up, we've spoken to many people that have had polarized experiences as children and then have sightings and events happen to them as they get older, that the government doesn't actively show that there's any interest in studying that side of the phenomena when it could in fact be part of the same thing. And I'd be interested to get your thoughts on that. Me and Ash, when we first started the podcast all these years ago, we were very sort of divided. You've got the UFOs one side, the Pyro the other side, and cryptids somewhere else in that particular weird triangle of subjects. And now, four years down the line, it's kind of like this little ball that everything sort of seems to fit in. So I'd be interested to see your take on that. Yes, illusions is based on that, whether it is a force, something with us that can mimic the greys or prime example. As I stated before, the multitude of different species reported they weren't fixed or set in stone. Also, this thing I mentioned in the book, I'm sure I did, was that it lacks a kind of, or a degree of imagination it requires us, because rather like this AI art, I have used it by the way, not for my own drawings, I've tested it out, it's very clever. What it does is it dips into a pool of already composed artwork from artists. It needs some kind of platform, a reservoir of material to use, but it cannot maintain consistency. An example of this I'll give is being an artist, I illustrated the grades or gave an example of them. As I said myself personally, I have not seen them. I wouldn't say I'm not privileged enough to see them, I'm lucky enough not to see them. I say that in tongue-in-cheek because they're quite horrifying, certainly from what I've read. But this image I had done of them, I created, it took me hours and hours. It's like drawing with plasticine, you create it from scratch using ZBrush, a 3D application. I'd done this grey and a chap said to me, and all due respect to him, he said, that's not how they look. That's not how they look. And you have others stating, and I thought, oh, this is interesting. So is that not an admission or reason to understand why they don't look exactly alike? Because rather like AI art, it cannot maintain consistency. It is impossible at the moment. I had some clever folks telling me, yes, it can, it can't. It can get close, but it can't maintain consistency. Are we dealing with something that is based along those lines of intelligence or an AI intelligence? These are not my thoughts based on the origin.
Philosophical Implications of AI and Paranormal Entities
00:53:03
Speaker
Someone else has come up with AI. I believe it was Nigel Kerel Kerner Nigel Kerner the late Nigel Kerner his wonderful books Song of the Greys I think there were some others he did a number of them where he suggested this kind of synthetic entity that was you know looking for something but the problem is I have a problem with that with the my problem is this and this is what's great about you gentlemen here and us because we can bash these out. My problem is this. So I'm looking at it as some kind of force, something that is connected through mind, just as our mental waves would appear to be rather like the internet highway. It can tap in. this force can tap in and represent any manner of creature or phenomena. And I said, it's not on all of them. This is to refer to the trickster element. I call it the atomic magician, certainly in our terms, what it's able to conjure. Anyway, the point is that Nigel Kerger mentioned that these entities were after our souls. But my argument is this, and not never to demean the great man himself. I would never, ever do that. It's just a question, and we're entitled to ask them. Why on earth would a civilization based on great artificial intelligence, beyond anything we have, true artificial intelligence, and referring to a synthetic consciousness, want a soul when it's never had it? How could it want something it doesn't miss? And if so, it would obviously understand what the soul was. It doesn't make any sense to me. And this is what keeps us plodding for answers, for pushing for questions. Why would it want something it never had? How could it wish for something? How could you, it's like us now, in the here and now, stating that there's an alien race out there and they've got something we haven't got. We've heard of it. We want it. How could you drive to that length to want something you just don't even understand? It didn't make any sense. You see where I'm going with this, gentlemen. It's very bizarre, very bizarre. But you see, this is what I love when I look into these questions. You know, their motives. What is the motive? So we're talking about a force, if it is a force that can replicate anything it wishes to. I mean, you don't see Scooby-Doo walking through the walls. You don't see a Dalek. It always creates something just beyond the fringe of reality, something that is based in folklore, but which might might just might be accepted in a paranormal sense you saw what I mean so what is the agenda I mean people stating that the greys are our friends and they're here to help us but they've done nothing they've done absolutely nothing to help us all the wish-washy nonsense of they're going to do this that's not they're going to do that they've done absolutely nothing and that is a fact right so they appear at your bedside or a footy of bed at three in the morning the witching hour or the knot so this intelligence knows us very well we are half naked and unattended in bed with these things standing there surely they would be intelligent to know our mannerisms our ways that is the most terrible thing you can do because it invokes fear it's always fear it draws me back to fear all the time fear and if so why these are questions we have to explore you know do they feed of it if so it will be like a stephen king novel the it his wonderful it book with the clown you know it it reminds me of that it can change guises it'd be a werewolf or a zombie or a clown or these terrible things it seems to be follow similar traits i wonder if stephen king's tapped into something because he's a genius he is but you see my where i'm going with it. So yes, I do believe it is connected. Great. And I guess on the fear kind of things, fear is used to control people. So that's an aspect to it as well. But like I say, why only a small percentage of people? You think like the whole planet, how many people there are, especially the population growth in the past 100 years. Only a very, very, very small percentage that we know of are, for example, being taken or stuff like that. And when you have the experience, like you mentioned yourself with the fat triangle, you'd expect it to be in the paper or other people to mention it because surely other people must have seen this. And I get a lot of reports similar where people are saying, like, you must have had no reports about this or there must be something because there's no way that a town of tens of thousands of people, they must have all seen this. It was huge. It was massive. It was bright, whatever. But no one else has. has so it's like is it a personal thing to you to that person are they can each other themselves just to them it's only the purpose was for you not for everyone else to see it that's kind of is that is that why yeah it that is a very good very good question ash yes it was it personal i know, I couldn't say. But it was just so damn bizarre. And you find that other people, as you stated, which quite be right, if so others don't see it, but you do. Or they have this way, this method of shutting off the street, where, you know, there's a pub down the road. Saturday night, you know, 11.15, and they're 90 feet out three of them glowing like godly spheres of shimmers of light and there's no one nothing nothing and then it's all quiet afterwards nothing happens it's very strange isn't it but I love it because we're still looking for answers when we are in a way we're none the wiser but in another we are because we're putting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together slowly and trying to put it together coherently to see what we are dealing with. And I know I understand people have their own views on it. I respect their own views. These are only opinions. They're not set in stone. As I said, I actually have no proof myself, nothing. We have got nothing, just assumptions, you know, but it's good that we chat about it. Certainly, like the poltergeists, the ghost aspects, which I'm fascinated with as well, the spiritual angle of it, that may have a connection to that actually.
The Importance of Community in Paranormal Discussions
00:59:43
Speaker
Certainly, I was involved in all that 25 years ago my goodness involved in all of it i was up to my neck in it spiritual everything you know trying to find answers it didn't help in some ways but it did in others but it is interesting that we push and drive for these things and i think we must continue to do so and thinking as well when you think you know i think a lot like yourselves you think and think and sometimes a little golden nugget appears and you think oh hang on what does that mean where does that fit you sort of mean i think it's important that we we're in a position now where we've got podcasts we've got the internet we've got youtube um for for like-minded people to able to, like we're doing tonight, just having a conversation about it. We just see where the conversation goes, and then we all chip in, and we create this common sort of thinking that covers off where we are as society, where we are, where the future might be in terms of what these things are and how the narrative's being pushed and who's pushing it. So it's great because there are times where you've got people that have never spoken to a single person about their experience before. And we've spoken to people and it's the first time they've ever told their their account of what's happened to them and it's conversations like this that inspire those people to to reach out to us or to to whoever um and this little community becomes a thing. And it's that kind of strengthening of the combined thinking. I think that's what will push the disclosure and people will become more confident. There's loads of podcasts, like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of podcasts out out there and some of them talk about what we're talking about some of them church related paranormal whatever it might be but everybody's having conversations now that probably before the internet they wouldn't have had so it's fascinating to hear other people's opinions on what i thought was one view and then you hear like your position when I met Ash and his position on things you go actually I can see all of that. Yes it helps to form a picture and what I do at night I'm very careful and I don't want to mess with this force I actually envision a crucifix upon the doors, the ceiling, the floors, every facet of my room before I
Ronny's Book Promotion and Closing Remarks
01:02:31
Speaker
go to bed. I don't want to see those things. I don't wish to see them. I've seen enough, I think. Not the greys, and they're ones I do not wish to see. I mean, researching them, you find all sorts of horrible things, poor people have been subjected to. So I always use the crucifix. Interesting there, isn't it? The crucifix, something to ward this force or to try and discourage this force from interacting with me or others of the household. And what you just stated, Greg, is absolutely spot on. The internet has opened it up so we can talk more. I know there are arguments, but you have that with everything. You even have it with football. So, you know, we're okay. Absolutely. Awesome. So these questions we've asked tonight and many more you discuss in your most recent book, which is Illusions, Smoke and Mirrors of the UFO ET Paranormal Enigma. Just tell our listeners where you can find that and a bit more about it. Yes, the book is based on my thoughts. It actually catalogues a number of interesting incidents, certainly with the cryptids, the werewolves, or as people prefer, the dogmen, and the UFOs, certainly the exotic airships. The book is illustrated and it's also available from Amazon. It's published by Flandes Press, Philip Mantles, Flandes Press. It's also available on e-book and narrative. The narrator's American. I like his voice. He's got a kind of tongue-in-cheek voice, but I like it. You know, he's great. So, yeah, it's available from Amazon. Illusions, Smoke and Mirrors, and you can understand now, I've discussed this, why we have called it or termed it that. Still trying to find out what we're dealing with. And I don't think we're going to get anywhere soon but we are moving closer or driving closer towards something that might be tangible certainly positive awesome well thank you very much for your time that was a great great chat really enjoyed talking to you again and discussing all things that. So yeah, thank you again. Thank you very much. Thank you, Greg and Ash. And it's been a pleasure coming on here. Thank you so much for having me. And I hope you have peaceful nights and nothing comes. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Pursuit of the Paranormal with Ash Ellis. Title music created by Steve Yarwood and Ambienfinity. If you like the show, please follow us on Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, X, and Instagram. And if you really like the show, please rate and review the show wherever you are listening.
01:05:23
Speaker
it really does help see you next time and until then stay weird