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Could Your Kid Do That?
114 Plays3 years ago
This week, we are asking the question “could your kid do that?” in the hopes of challenging the phrase... “my kid could do that.” Gianna offers her perspective as a museum educator as to why this comment persists within a misunderstood art world and how it can be detrimental when trying to foster creativity and artful engagement for our young people. We discuss the perpetuated stigma around this well-known comment when it comes to works from the ab-ex, dada, and minimalist movements and use this topic to critique the public’s suspicion behind North West’s landscape painting.
For the mentioned episode from the Comments By Celebs podcast, click HERE. For the mentioned episode from the Keep It podcast, click HERE.
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Transcript
Did Northwest paint a Bob Ross style landscape?
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Gianna. And I'm Bianca. Bianca, my question for you this week is, do you think Northwest did in fact paint that Bob Ross style landscape this past week?
00:00:15
Speaker
Gianna, I'm so glad you asked. I do believe North is the painter of this image. And I'm so excited to get into why this conversation is not just taking place on Kim Kardashian's Twitter, but why these ideas matter so much for our world.
Understanding 'My kid could do that' in art
00:00:30
Speaker
In today's episode, we're thinking about that infamous statement found in museums across the globe. That's sarcastic. My kid could do that. We're flipping it back to ask the question, could your kid do that?
00:00:43
Speaker
From Jackson Pollock all the way through Northwest, we'll be looking at art history's famous works that bring out this detrimental phrase to examine what it means not only for the art world and artists, but for art education and creativity at a young age. Bianca, could you do an art pop talk now? Gianna, I can and I will.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hello, everyone. I wanted to start us off here by mentioning that in continuing our Valentine's Day theme from last week,
00:01:16
Speaker
We actually have an old episode on art and dating, if you haven't listened to that one yet. But this past week, the reason I was thinking about this was because Bumble CEO Whitney Wolfe-Hurd has become the youngest woman to run a publicly traded company at age 31. The company's new IPO could bring the value of the company to $8 billion.
00:01:42
Speaker
So also, if you're thinking about investing, maybe Bumble is the way to go after all of the GameStop stuff.
Whitney Wolfe-Hurd's milestone achievement
00:01:50
Speaker
I watched this interview with her on CBS this morning. And first of all, I think I want to go work for Bumble. She's so cool. And her office is so cute. It looks like a little beehive. But she also discussed the company's priorities in keeping dating safe and healthy and also having a female board and female employees. It was really cool.
00:02:10
Speaker
Also, Gianna, I wanted to give a little update after we talked about the Golden Globes last week and
00:02:16
Speaker
You know, I let everyone know that I'm still very confused by the titles of Promising Young Woman and Pieces of a Woman. I feel like I'm usually really good at that sort of thing, being conscientious of details, but I am struggling. I watched Pieces of a Woman and five minutes after I finished it, I was like, wait, which one did I watch? No, I'm definitely sure I watched Promising Young Woman. That's not true. I watched Pieces of a Woman. So, Gianna, I was wondering, have you watched any of them yet? Like, are you trying to knock down that list we talked about last week?
00:02:46
Speaker
Yes, I'm trying and I'm failing. It has been quite a week here in Oklahoma. The weather has been a little bit crazy, but I am so excited about the release of Rodgers and Hammerstein's 1997 Cinderella with Brandy and Whitney, which was finally added to Disney Plus last Friday. Finally, finally.
00:03:12
Speaker
I'm just also so happy to find out like through quarantine that this movie was just as much as a classic in our home as it was in others because Bianca and I have always had a hard time finding this movie. Bianca you finally bought a DVD and we've had that for a while but for years years we were still watching our VHS recorded tape and
00:03:35
Speaker
like taped over the commercials and everything fantastic. And now we'll be able to watch it whenever we want, which is just so fantastic.
Cultural impact of 1997's Cinderella on Disney Plus
00:03:43
Speaker
Right. I watched it this weekend on Disney Plus, and it was just so nice. I know that I have the DVD, but Gianna, you're exactly right. There's something about feeling that echoing of culture and that echoing of something that you loved so much. And I was trying to explain it to Andrew this weekend how
00:04:01
Speaker
I think I was influenced by this movie, just like the dresses and the glitter and the songs and the set is very Art Nouveau and the whole cast is just amazing. I think aesthetically and pop culturally, it's just everything that I ever wanted in a movie. And I think that's also probably why I like Moulin Rouge so much. There's so much fantasy in that. Well, and then also with the incredible, incredible
00:04:31
Speaker
Little promo that Todrick did with Brandy. Oh my gosh absolutely everything I was in tears I literally screamed when the original cast was brought back. It was so Just so cute. I made me so happy and I know how much Todrick has talked about This movie which by the way me and Bianca called big Cinderella. Yes
00:04:56
Speaker
because it's live action and that's how we verbally express what movie we wanted to watch. It was Big Cinderella because it was live action Cinderella. Right, to differentiate between the VHS tape of the original Disney animated Cinderella and the brandy recorded tape version of the Wonderful World of Disney for also the kids who didn't have cable and to differentiate it was brandy Cinderella was called Big Cinderella.
00:05:22
Speaker
Can I say that the best thing that I liked about the little promo Todrick did with Brandy was something that I've always picked up in the movie that I've just loved with the ball gowns and when they throw the big ball is all the dresses have this pink and blue hue to it.
00:05:41
Speaker
And to see that be replicated in this promo and this music video was, I just loved it so much. It's just like, oh yes, like that was so important, like the stage of it all. I just, I love the hues. Everything is so, like you said, Bianca Art Nouveau. It's very clamped to like Whitney's dress. It's very clamped inspired. It just made me really happy. The visuals made me happy. I completely agree.
00:06:08
Speaker
And I also just have a question for Brandy. Brandy, if you're listening to this, can you please elaborate on where you got the dress for the Todrick promo? Because have you just kept this dress from 1997? Or did you have it remade? Because if I could just have someone also make me a copy of this dress, I can't tell you guys how influenced I am by the look
00:06:31
Speaker
Brandi's blue sparkly Cinderella with the details on the sleeves and the tiara and the blue eyeshadow No, the blue eyeshadow beyond it. It's the blue eyeshadow. It is 1,000% the blue eyeshadow I cannot please come on the show and touch The drug cannot wear a blue eyeshadow to this day and not think of brandy and big Cinderella. It's impossible.
Britney Spears documentary and creative control
00:06:55
Speaker
Well, oops, I am ready for some art news because we are talking about framing Britney Spears. I think this is also obviously an interesting conversation in itself as pop fans and fans of Britney, but this is also just something that seems to be in line with this idea of creative control that we've also been touching on.
00:06:58
Speaker
I
00:07:24
Speaker
on the podcast in within the past few weeks too. Yeah. So if you haven't heard a new documentary by the New York Times came out last week, which is available to watch on Hulu.
00:07:36
Speaker
that examines the Free Britney movement and takes a closer look at Britney Spears' conservatorship, which has given her father Jamie Spears control over her person and finances for the past 13 years. The documentary follows Spears' rise to fame, and we get interviews from many different people in her life, from what they call her assistant to members of the paparazzi.
00:08:00
Speaker
And the film really culminates to this question of, does Britney need to be in a conservatorship? Spears entered the conservatorship in 2008 at age 26, which is that era, that height of pop cultural images of Britney and the tabloids. Now she's 39 and a growing number of her fans have started advocating for her. And I want to explore this a bit in a moment, what the free Britney movement is doing and why, but
00:08:30
Speaker
First, Gianna, I want to hear your thoughts on the documentary. It seems like we've really known about this for a while. I mean, it's been going on for 13 years, but did the documentary surprise you? Did you learn anything new about her?
00:08:45
Speaker
So for me there was no real big surprises just because I had been keeping up with the story for a while now and it really I would say anything there was really just some eye-opening moments and when a platform like the New York Times speaks about it not just in an article but dedicated an hour and a half documentary to the subject
00:09:08
Speaker
That in itself was just really, really eye-opening. And I know that there has been a lot of jokes about the Free Britney movement kind of having a cult vibe, which we will talk about. But this story is important not just because of its pop culture significance and us being fascinated and saddened by Britney going through this conservatorship. But this is really an issue of how we view, talk about, and care for women and mental health, but especially women in the public eye.
00:09:38
Speaker
I thought the best viewpoint this documentary used was talking about how in the early 90s and early 2000s nobody was really talking about mental health while tying in the reality of this era, you know, in pop music where it was boy band central. And Britney became one of the female pop singers that broke through all that boy band fandom and thus became one of the iconic women of the time that
00:10:03
Speaker
that we love and would fantasize about, but also hate on, scrutinize everything about her, blame her for anything we felt
Media portrayal of Britney Spears
00:10:11
Speaker
like blaming her for, and shame her because we could. So when it comes to female mental health, I'm not at all surprised by this information and what we saw Brittany go through, just because, you know, we have come a long way, but it's still not great. And the ways that we talk about mental health, we still do have a lot of work to do.
00:10:31
Speaker
And the way that we did manipulate images of her, you know, through the press and through even images she thought perhaps she had creative control of, it just sparked a really interesting thought process in my mind. But if I had to pick a moment in the documentary that did make my jaw drop, was
00:10:52
Speaker
the moment they showed the Britney interview with Diane Sawyer in 2003. After I finished the doc, I watched the interview on my own and I wanted to quote a few questions that Sawyer asked Britney because it shows how powerful language is and
00:11:12
Speaker
how easy it is to twist a perception of a person and how easy it was for us to twist our perception of Brittany. So quoting Sawyer, and a girl who always played it close to the line and how much skin she showed posed in this picture in Esquire magazine, consider the line officially crossed.
00:11:32
Speaker
Then she goes on to ask Brittany, what happened to your clothes, Brittany? Seriously, no joke. What is this about? Is this photo about shocking people? The interview just felt very manipulative in getting her to admit that she regretted taking these photos. And I also think this interview went back to another major issue that when Brittany is speaking, it genuinely feels like nobody is listening to her.
00:12:01
Speaker
Sawyer holds up these photos of Brittany and Brittany says, oh, okay, if there was one photo I would take back, it might be this one because they actually didn't have the final say over it. And instead of talking about how Brittany has hundreds of thousands and you know, millions of different factors and people helping to control and perpetuate a certain kind of image of her as a celebrity,
00:12:25
Speaker
it felt like a very gotcha kind of moment and it was really disappointing. Britney also brings up this point of when other women pose provocatively or show skin it's not as big of a deal so
00:12:41
Speaker
why is all the shame placed on her all the time? Sawyer then argues that people have had a different kind of relationship with her being in the public eye at such a young age. And this is such a lame opinion to have, I think. And we have seen this happen to other celebrities such as Miley and Demi and Ari and a lot of young female singers that we've grown up with. And we know that some of these women have been afflicted by serious mental health issues as well. So I just think
00:13:10
Speaker
That's such a lame opinion to have and we've seen the connotations of that and that's really severe.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's such a great point, Gianna. And thinking about visuals and images is what we do on this
Free Britney movement: Conspiracy or culture?
00:13:23
Speaker
show. And just to put these images of Britney in a line of artistic works, you know, that exploit women and women's bodies. I mean, the history of voyeurism is something not to be ignored. And it was with Britney in particular.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah. No surprise, I started hearing about the Free Britney movement on TikTok.
00:13:51
Speaker
And I think the reason for this is because, well, we're in a pandemic and social media is a quick way to organize and connect and share findings about a wildly popular topic. But I think it also has to do with the fact that the reason the movement started was, yes, because she's in a conservatorship, which she doesn't want to be in, nor do I think she needs to be in.
00:14:15
Speaker
because Britney herself has been posting these interesting, I mean, to say the least, videos and images with very specific captions on social media. This is something that the documentary addresses that Britney fans finding in Gianna's words, little Easter eggs. And every single post that to them was a signal for help to the fans, Britney was posting signals for help.
00:14:42
Speaker
and I was listening to the Keep It podcast from Crooked Media last week and Ira made this point about the Free Britney movement almost being conspiracy theory-esque, saying that it was almost too much like QAnon. And not that I think Free Britney is in any way like QAnon, however it was such an interesting point to make because the fans really have taken it upon themselves to build
00:15:08
Speaker
an entire reality and sometimes very specific narratives. And specifically, I'm thinking of a TikTok where Brittany is in a yellow shirt and they say, Brittany, if you need help, wear a yellow shirt in your next video or in your next video, Brittany, if you need help, blink five times. And she blinks five times in the next one. So there are very specific narratives that people are building out of Brittany's posts. And these are images that we're looking at.
00:15:38
Speaker
And then in just thinking about this point that Ira made about Easter eggs, I was like, holy shit, you know, art historians are literally just a bunch of conspiracy theorists. Oh, 100%. Art history is just one big free Britney documentary where we do have evidence to support our claims, but we just cherry pick to the motherfucking core anything that makes our argument relevant. And I was like,
00:16:05
Speaker
Yo, all of these people involved in the Free Britney movement are their own form of art historians, and they're doing research and building a case to make a point almost entirely out of images coming from Britney's Instagram account.
00:16:22
Speaker
And thinking about images, I was also listening to the podcast Comments by Celebs. Literally every podcast I listened to said something about Free Britney last week, and I'm just going to say we're not going to be the exception here on ABT. But they were talking about the photos of Paris, Lindsay and Britney with the headline of Bimbo Summit, just ew, which was printed in the New York Post in 2006.
00:16:49
Speaker
Of course, subsequently we have Britney shaving her head and Britney with the umbrella. And right now, I'm just curious if you're listening to this, you can picture those three images, if you can see without looking up what visuals I'm talking about. And in the podcast, Commons by Celebs, one of the hosts says that, quote, if there was a pop culture museum, that would be the biggest exhibit.
00:17:14
Speaker
And I'm not exactly sure how familiar that host is with museums and art culture, but I just thought that comment was so fascinating because it made the point so clear that these images brought up in the documentary are on that level of famous art. They are images
Artistic abilities in children: A societal view
00:17:30
Speaker
that perpetually exist within our minds and within our cultures, just like famous art does.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yes, Bianca, everything you said is just a big gold star for me. I think ending this discussion on images of Brittany fabricated by others, especially by the media, is a good place to stop. Having the photographer who took the very well-known image of Brittany taking an umbrella and hitting his actual car, we found out in the documentary with it. It also was a very pivotal perspective in the documentary
00:18:05
Speaker
to see how her relationship progressed and became so destructive with the media as they took that relationship with Brittany for granted and the fact that the photographer admitted in the documentary that he didn't see any signs of distress. Instead of only fixating on the action of a woman shaving her hair off, we need to listen to the words she is saying and acknowledge the part we played in her mental health.
00:18:32
Speaker
listen to what women are telling you. And that is how I would like to end this discussion. And just to end, we should note that last Thursday, Brittany had a court hearing where the judge did not remove Jamie Spears, but named the Bessemer Trust as a co-conservator of Brittany's estate. So we will keep you guys updated, hopefully as things progress and Brittany continues to fight this.
00:19:00
Speaker
Okay, Gianna, can we get into today's art pop talk?
00:19:09
Speaker
Today's episode is exciting because it's something that Gianna and I have continuously thought a lot about throughout most of our museum training. It's really something that comes up a lot. I'd say hear it almost every time I'm at a museum, or I'll hear it a lot whenever I'm talking with someone about abstract or minimalist art. And that is the phrase, my kid could do that, or a child could do that, or, oh, anyone could do that. And a lot of the times the
00:19:38
Speaker
professor-like theoretical response is, but did they? So in today's episode, we are asking the question, could your kid do that? In hopes of bringing a more well-rounded insight into this idea that art is easy, that it's only for children, and to address this kind of perpetualized stigma
00:20:01
Speaker
around this degrading comment. And to end the discussion, we are going to be looking at this Twitter fiasco that took place last week after Kim Kardashian posted a photo of her daughter North's painting on Instagram. People started questioning this because the image was good, if North was actually the painter.
00:20:25
Speaker
I swear you guys, we did not plan this at all. We had this episode all planned out and then Kim posted this image. And sometimes the universe just really speaks to you and I'm really excited about it. I feel like normally I kind of start us off with some background information here, but today we are mixing things up. And since this idea can stem heavily from museum education, which is one of Gianna's fortes, I'm going to let her kick us off.
00:20:55
Speaker
So the phrase, my kid could do that, refers to the moment that someone sees a work of art and views that art as maybe unimpressive, immature, or so basic that a young child could do it. We know that this is a very cliche phrase and other phrases even seem to stem from that such as, I could do that. That typical response we see to combat these remarks are commonly, well,
00:21:23
Speaker
Did they though? Or, well, did you do that though? So when Bianca and I were talking about this concept, we wanted to break down that, well, did you phrase? Because although we know that this remark is conveying, but you didn't, so get over it because someone else beat you to it, it is still a very unimpressive way of fixing the bigger issue, which is not only you demeaning the art by saying things like,
00:21:52
Speaker
my kid could do that, you are also in a way demeaning the child or the young person as well. So this is a very loaded phrase and I want to talk about the problem first through my experience as a museum educator and why I think museums are so important for young people but
00:22:13
Speaker
Also keep it locked away in your brain that again these are issues that stem from adults not having a developed understanding of art and the kinds of spaces and educational opportunities I try to provide for people span from ages as young as five to six years old to college students and adults.
00:22:35
Speaker
So typically when I lead any kind of tour, but especially for K through 12 programming, we start with a kind of warmup piece. This gives them some context about how the tour is going to be, where essentially I asked them guiding questions about what they are seeing visually.
00:22:51
Speaker
Then I ask questions like, what does that represent to you? Maybe at this point I ask them if they know what symbolism is or what abstractionism means, and then offer a formal definition based off their response. And I drop in these little context clues through my language as a means to guide the conversation.
00:23:12
Speaker
Once they have told me everything they are seeing and we formulate ideas of what is being communicated to us, we usually end on asking the question, how does this work of art make you feel? And honestly, when I was thinking about some of my experiences, I have had working with children predominantly in Stillwater, which is also just especially important because a lot of our
00:23:35
Speaker
young community members. The OSU Museum of Art was one of the only art museums they had real access to or had ever been to for that matter. And as an educator at the time, I took that really seriously because if I could make a child's
00:23:51
Speaker
thoughts and perspectives about a work of art feel validated, then perhaps in the future, we have a better shot of breaking museum intimidation and downplaying art at such an early age. On top of that, a child might start to gain a greater understanding of what kind of learner they are. And I can say as a visual learner myself, that isn't always conveyed in other educational
00:24:19
Speaker
opportunities, that there are different ways of absorbing information because you are taught subjects the way that all your other classmates were taught subjects in school unless you had access to other opportunities outside of the classroom.
00:24:36
Speaker
That is where a museum education for me being on the other side of it really comes into play. Going back to the structure of my tour, whatever piece we were talking about or whether there was an art activity or writing activity, it was never just me standing up there talking about art for an hour. Nobody wants that. I don't want that. I know I'm doing that a lot these days on the podcast, but I know what I think about art
00:25:05
Speaker
We're here to have conversations and have them tell me what they think about art. And that's really the value of a museum space for me. To tell you some of the curatorial topics or artworks I taught children about
00:25:22
Speaker
range from a variety of topics to collecting objects, not even art objects, just objects such as radios, cameras, other household objects. Then we have art for art's sake, art as a universal language, identity, depression, slavery, racism,
00:25:40
Speaker
visual sovereignty, abstractionism, utopia, LGBTQ history before the Stonewall Riots, aka gay cowboys, pictorialism. The list goes on and on, and not once did I ever have a conversation with a group of young students where they didn't share something profound about the artwork. Even if what they are saying wasn't exactly the intent of the artist,
00:26:05
Speaker
Guess what? It doesn't matter because something about that image struck a chord with a young person and we are giving them a platform to make their voice and opinion acknowledged and that is the goal. So to diminish an artwork and a child or yourself with the phrase, my kid could do that, or I could do that.
00:26:26
Speaker
can be really destructive because what you are saying is that what that person created is not unique and their perspective is not unique and because you feel it can be easily replicated it is not worth your time nor your consideration and to me this is just as dismissive as saying that your child's creative expression and curious and creative thoughts also are not genuine
00:26:54
Speaker
If we break down the combating phrase, well, did they?
The importance of context in art comprehension
00:26:58
Speaker
The surface level assumption is essentially they just were
00:27:03
Speaker
or weren't the first person to, for example, put dots on a canvas. And it's all about being the first, right? Especially when we are looking at representational works found in abstractionism or data or minimalism, what have you, and we'll talk about all those things later. And for sure, this is a part of the conversation, the idea of being the first. But what we are not saying is that whoever was the first to make that art
00:27:29
Speaker
There was a reason for it. It was a marker of their place in art history or whatever art movement they were a part of, a marker of their experience and time. Maybe it's even satirical or conveying a highly emotional experience or critiquing or commenting on something.
00:27:46
Speaker
And you know what, you might be able to actually recreate something that highly resembles that work you're dissing. But unless you know what you are saying with your now appropriated work, your object has no conceptual or physical value because you didn't even take the time to learn about the original piece that was created, why it was created, and why the art world is saying that this is significant and we should know about it.
00:28:14
Speaker
One of the ways that I would go about having a conversation about this phrase in a museum, whether that was in one of my tours or if I was with one of my family members, for example, I would say, okay, so our lovely label tells us that this piece is about, let's say, sandwiches.
00:28:34
Speaker
It's an abstract piece, and all we see are these stripes on a canvas. And we have all these layers. Tell me what those colors represent. Everyone is going to have a different opinion about what those colors mean based on the kinds of sandwiches they eat or they like. Okay, now imagine that sandwich with all its layers that you're thinking of in your head. Now, how would you depict it?
00:29:00
Speaker
Then it becomes this deeper understanding of personal expression. Why would you want to replicate their idea of a sandwich when you actually have your own unique and interesting idea of how you would depict a sandwich? Everything I do as an artist is derived from a thought idea or material that someone else has already used or thought of.
00:29:24
Speaker
The value of art is that we continue to play, develop, invent and share new ideas of what the human condition looks like.
00:29:32
Speaker
your kid can't do that because your child is going to make their own original art. They're going to tell us their perspective from their lived experience which is not the same as anybody else's. So I know that was a lot and you know I'm feeling a bit emotional but I felt like it was important to kind of
00:29:55
Speaker
tackle the issue from how I have experienced it personally and professionally. The rest of our conversation in the first half of our episode will be structured through examples in which this phrase pops up quite often, starting with apex and the idea of Dada and ending with minimalism.
00:30:13
Speaker
Yeah, Gianna, I thought that was fantastic. I think that is such a great way for us to be able to visualize this concept and really think about next time you feel like you want to ask that question.
00:30:28
Speaker
what does it mean to have a unique experience of something? So I'm going to start in looking at abstract expressionism with the example of Jackson Pollock and I think a point to make about this episode as well is that we're using these very classic and traditional
00:30:47
Speaker
examples from art history that mostly surround white men. And I just want to say that there are amazing examples of artists who aren't white men who are also working in these areas, especially I think when it comes to these topics, abex, abstraction, minimalism, I just think that
00:31:06
Speaker
especially there are a lot of women artists and artists of color who take on these movements in a really powerful way because just as Gianna was saying there's this idea of a unique experience and I think that particularly works well with people who constantly feel othered because this episode is so tied to that classic idea of those big names like Pollock Picasso and Duchamp these are the
00:31:33
Speaker
I think these are the names that get kind of attached easily to that quote, my kid could do that. And I just want to address this for people in hopes that you'll take on this point and really think about those big names that you're already familiar with and then expand your knowledge about these art forms and movements to know that there is such an expansive universe of meanings in abstracted artwork and I think
00:31:59
Speaker
That is just another reason why artists, quote unquote, identified as the other create such powerful experiences with their artwork. The husband of Abbac's painter Lee Krasner is really a crucial part of this discussion because, like I said, he's an easy target, I think, for a lot of people who just see the work and don't really understand those conceptual ideas behind it.
00:32:27
Speaker
Lee Krasner was married to a man named Jackson Pollock.
00:32:31
Speaker
who was also a painter, but was most commonly associated with his drip paintings of the abstract expressionist movement. The movement originated in 1940s New York City and is one of the first to consistently exhibit pure abstraction as an innovative form of high art. The movement derived from surrealism taking root in the subconscious and sporadic world of dreams.
00:32:59
Speaker
Jackson Pollock has become one of the most renowned artists from this post-war period due to his developments in drip painting, and this is very early performance-esque art. Often working on a large scale that had once only been reserved for historical paintings, Pollock's paintings were designed for the viewer's complete experience, a visual and a mental task.
00:33:29
Speaker
The large-scale of his paintings allows the viewer to become visually immersed in the dynamic surface while at the same time giving them opportunities to interpret the painting for themselves. The unruly ways in which Pollock created these paintings came from his own identities and his
00:33:48
Speaker
personal method of creation. But there are often no certainties in content or subject when analyzing his works because they really are purely abstracted.
00:34:01
Speaker
There was a critic, Robert Coates, who actually coined the movement's title, Abstract Expressionism, who once mocked many of Pollack's works, calling them, quote, mere unorganized explosions of random energy and therefore meaningless. In The Price of Everything, which you may recall we discussed a few weeks back, there is a scene where Jerry Saltz, the art critic, says, quote,
00:34:29
Speaker
When Pollock finished his first drip painting, he asked his wife, Lee Krasner, if this was a painting. He made something that he didn't even know if it would fit into the very large category we call art. Jerry then says the interesting thing about Pollock is that he only dripped for about 48 months.
00:34:51
Speaker
And then he calls upon cynics and skeptics of this art form and asks, quote, if you invented fire, which Pollock did, are you strong enough to stop making fire and go back to hell? 48 months later, go back to hell and try to make something new again. How many people have done that?
00:35:16
Speaker
And that's it right there. I know Gianna kind of addressed this point of
00:35:22
Speaker
you can't make something new twice. And I think that really is, though, such a strong point of Jackson Pollock. I mean, this huge name, this huge inventor. He not only invented a completely new way of painting on a scale previously reserved for very specific historical paintings of a traditional realm.
00:35:48
Speaker
He was the creator of artistic performance, a brand new original idea that had never been exhibited before. And you can't undo what he did. You cannot repeat the moment that he created. So as Gianna and I will discuss here in a minute, we can copy as children we have mimicked his performances. And as Gianna said, we can create our sandwich. We can make our sandwich. But Jackson Pollock,
00:36:18
Speaker
He invented the sandwich, like he created the sandwich and here we are just making our own version of it. So I think that's a really important thing to understand. And I really do love Pollock. I think, you know, we can go into a lot of, you know, of course, as always problems and issues, but this moment
00:36:40
Speaker
is really fascinating. Yeah, right. Jackson Pollock is like the Joey Tribbiani of the art world, I must say. We don't do Joey Dirty like that. It's the art of the sandwich, man. I think Joey Tribbiani deserves way more than Jackson Pollock. I see your point, but also don't do Joey Dirty like that.
00:37:07
Speaker
No, you're right. And also, yes, you're right, Bianca. And going back to what I was saying earlier, why would you want to copy what they did if you can have a different and unique way of going about that? And we can still take those ideas and play into it and develop
00:37:22
Speaker
off of it and all that fun stuff. But we will never be able to fully experience what Pollock was thinking and feeling and what he created in his splatter paint images. But for educational purposes, whether you want to learn more about the artist or you're an artist highly influenced by Pollock,
00:37:39
Speaker
and other apex painters, then by all means, I think it can be a really essential and crucial and personal way of experiencing art and art history and going about learning something through interdisciplinary practices. That's what it's all about.
00:37:56
Speaker
Bianca and I specifically learned about Pollock through these practices. We've talked about this program before, I believe. Our mom, Anna Maria, started a program run by the PTA at our elementary school called Imagination Express, where you learned about the artist and then you made a work of art, either 2D or sculptural, based on the style of that artist to better understand the process. I just needed to point out that this woman,
00:38:25
Speaker
literally had parents dressing up in lavish Victorian-esque outfits modeling for us as young as seven years old in the classroom. So I just need to point out that Anna Maria was the OG art puppet master of the PTA and we absolutely love to see it.
00:38:44
Speaker
But going back to Pollock, mom did this awesome lesson where we went outside, class outside, and dad and her cut these really large pieces of square masonite boards out. And there were probably about five kids to a board and we all were given oversized paint shirts and we got splatter paint together and we just got to paint wildly on these boards together and it was so much fun.
00:39:11
Speaker
And I just wanted to say that because it was a group project that year each work of art was also sold at our school auction and Mom and dad bought mine because it was really good That's so sweet. Really cute. Just had to point out Yeah, I just I just remember going outside and having such a fun day making spotter paint and there's nothing wrong with that It was so fun. It was so fun
00:39:34
Speaker
All right, so let's transition into some data. For someone who works with found objects, I'm constantly going back to data.
00:39:45
Speaker
it being this combination of found art, performance art, sculpture, art for art's sake, poetry, and manifestos. When you look at work from this movement without an understanding of what people were experiencing in the early 1900s, data seems very immature, satirical, and can be really difficult to understand without this historic context from World War I to other pivotal exhibitions at the time.
00:40:12
Speaker
To start, the world was literally being torn apart and literally everything, art being no exception, was called into question. The object of Dada was to do away with the traditional values in art that we had held so dear for so long. Artists and writers in this movement were looking to create commentary about their experiences in the war, about politics, and they were very anti-war and critiqued a classist society.
00:40:41
Speaker
The founder of Dada was a writer named Hugo Ball, and in 1916 he recited a poem at a nightclub in Zurich called Cabaret Voltaire. The poem he recited was utter gibberish and very nonsensical. Words weren't even words, they were just sounds. To quote Smithsonian Magazine,
00:41:03
Speaker
The concept was aimed at a public that seemed all too complacent about a senseless war. Politicians of all stripes had proclaimed the war a noble cause. Whether it was to defend Germany's high culture, France's enlightenment, or Britain's empire, Ball stated he wanted to shock anyone who regarded all this civilized carnage as a triumph of European intelligence.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely think Dada is one of those movements that's particularly hard to grasp. Let's say if you're just walking through a museum and you don't really understand what you are supposed to get out of it. It's not only a heavily conceptual movement, but there's also a lot of history as Gianna was just saying that goes into Dada.
Dada movement: Challenging art's status quo
00:41:49
Speaker
And I think that's another facet that's also hard to remember if you're just an average person. I mean, I cannot remember every single story that goes into a piece of Dada. As Gianna is going to explain, these stories tied to that art really add to this deep experiential moment you have when looking at it. And I do think it's a part of the art, maybe more so than others.
00:42:17
Speaker
So let's talk about the work that shook it all up and is still goddess thinking and talking about it today. It brings up our favorite and not so favorite question. Is this art or not art?
00:42:35
Speaker
Marcel Duchamp's Fountain from 1917 is a highly iconic piece, perhaps you've heard of it. Duchamp in this time period helped pave the way for the use of readymade, which our existing objects found in real life contextualize at the hands of the artist.
00:42:56
Speaker
This is a term I use in my artist statement, and through its usage, I am directly making a connection between my work and linking it to the Da Da movement. To quote the artsy article, How Duchamp's Journal Changed Art Forever, the story's legend, Duchamp wanting to submit an artwork to the Unjured Society of Independent Artists Salon in New York, which claimed that they would accept any artwork
00:43:22
Speaker
so long as the artist paid for the application fee, presented an upside down journal sign and dated R. Mutt 1917 entitled The Fountain. The society's board faced with what must have seemed like a practical joke from an anonymous artist rejected the fountain on the grounds that it was not a true work of art. Duchamp who was a member of that board himself resigned in protest.
00:43:48
Speaker
So who is our mutt, you might be asking yourself. Legend has it that the urinal wasn't even Duchamp's original idea. Perhaps it was sent to him by a friend under the pseudonym, our mutt, for which he then used as the signature on the actual piece. So let's go back to our phrase of the day. My kid could do that, or I could do that. In this case, hypothetically, you are right in the sense that the physicality of making this work of art is not that hard.
00:44:17
Speaker
But the concept isn't just everything. It is groundbreaking. And do I myself love that a groundbreaking piece of art is from a journal? Like, no, I don't. Artists, Beatrice Wood wrote at the time, or at least we think it was her because it was written under a pseudonym or it was anonymous at the time, quote, whether Mr. Mutt with his own hands made the fountain or not has no importance.
00:44:48
Speaker
He chose it. He took an ordinary article of life, placed it so that its useful significance disappeared under the new title and point of view, created a new thought for that object. Wood, who had followed Duchamp's work closely, recognized the groundbreaking power of the work. Whether you like it or not, you, me, no one else on this earth can place an object on a pedestal and call it art
00:45:15
Speaker
and have it not be tied back to Dada. It is impossible and therefore never replaced or replicated in the same way ever again. Yeah, Gianna, I think this
00:45:27
Speaker
quote from Wood created a new thought for that object is just so cool. And this actually reminds me of some work that we've talked about in my thesis with this idea that objects have agency. And I think even myself, Jonah, as you were saying, do I like that this one of the most famous works of art ever came from a man who stuck a urinal on a pedestal? Like, no, I'm not happy about that. But, you know,
00:45:56
Speaker
I think even myself, for someone who knows this story and knows art history, I can have a very hard time with Duchamp, but if I'm gonna make a confession here on APT, I think I secretly love him for this. And for some reason, I just, I love to hate on Duchamp also, and I think that's probably why
00:46:24
Speaker
members of the board also did because I just picture him having this smug little attitude you know with this satire he just showed up and did this thing and it's it's so brilliantly arrogant that it just pisses me off and and you know what I love to hate it and I hate to love it and I so true that is my stance that was just poetically perfect to be honest
00:46:53
Speaker
Thank you, thank you. Moving on because I cannot spend another moment thinking about urinal. I'm going to wrap up this section of the show with a bit on minimalism and
00:47:10
Speaker
differentiation between all of these different terms and movements we're talking about, I think can get a little fuzzy, especially when you're using adjectives as movements. So I like to think that minimalist art can be abstract, but not all abstract art is minimalist. I'm going to read a little description from the Tate Modern. They have a really good recap that we'll link on the movement as well, but
00:47:37
Speaker
They write, quote, minimalist art can be seen as extending the abstract idea that art should have its own reality and not be an imitation of some other thing. We usually think of art as representing an aspect of the real world, a landscape, a person, or even a tin of soup, or reflecting an experience such as an emotion or feeling.
00:48:07
Speaker
With minimalism, no attempt is made to represent an outside reality. The artist wants the viewer to respond only to what is in front of them, the medium or the material from which it is made, and the form of the work is the reality. Minimalist painter Frank Stella famously said about his paintings, quote, what you see is what you see.
00:48:33
Speaker
Minimalism emerged in the late 50s and flourished in the 60s and 70s with artists such as Dan Flavin, Donald Judd, Sol LeWitt, Agnes Martin, and Robert Morris becoming some of the most prevalent figures.
00:48:48
Speaker
The development of minimalism is linked to that of conceptual art, which also flourished at the same time. Both movements challenged the existing structures for making, disseminating and viewing art and argued that the importance given to the art object is misplaced and leads to a rigid and elitist art world, which only the privileged few can afford to enjoy.
00:49:18
Speaker
That was good stuff. So this is a great time to ask, could your kid do that? In consideration of all these key building blocks of the minimalist movements, could your kid make art for art's sake? Totally. I think yes. You know, it is okay for your kid to do that and they can be fantastic at it.
00:49:45
Speaker
Saying my kid could do that in front of an Agnes Martin shouldn't be a bad thing, but an encouragement for them to see and take in and want to create. I want to end with a little bit about Saul Lewitt. I just adore him and I think ending on Saul brings our discussion a little full circle going back to Pollock and that
00:50:08
Speaker
There is a type of performance or very theatrical and interactive approach to a lot of what we've been talking about today and Saul Lewitt was an American artist linked to various movements including conceptual art and minimalism Lewitt came to fame in the 60s with his wall drawings
00:50:28
Speaker
and structures. Structures is a term that he preferred instead of sculptures. But he was really prolific in a wide range of media including drawing, printmaking, photography, painting, installations, etc.
00:50:44
Speaker
And these wall drawings is what I want to tell you about. So essentially LeWitt, instead of creating and installing these drawings himself, was basically offering you a set of instructions to do the creating yourself.
00:50:59
Speaker
In 1968, Lewitt began to conceive sets of guidelines or simple diagrams for his two-dimensional works that were meant to be drawn directly on the wall. They were first executed in graphite, then crayon, colored pencil, and they evolved in different mediums as well.
00:51:19
Speaker
Between 1969 and 1970, he created four drawing series, which presented different combinations of the basic elements. In each series, he applied a different system of change to each 24 possible combinations of a square divided into four equal parts, each containing one of the four basic types of lines that LeWitt used.
00:51:47
Speaker
So this is vertical, horizontal, diagonal left, and diagonal right. The result is four possible permutations for each of the 24 original units.
Sol LeWitt and the role of interpretation in art
00:51:59
Speaker
So that's kind of complicated to envision, but essentially it is a set of drawing instructions to create these basic shapes.
00:52:09
Speaker
According to the principle of his work, Lewitt's wall drawings were usually executed by people other than himself. Even after his death, people are still making these wall drawings. He would eventually use teams of assistants to create these works as well,
00:52:28
Speaker
He wrote about making wall drawings and himself observed in 1971 that, quote, each person draws a line differently and each person understands words differently.
00:52:43
Speaker
So you're going to have out of one set of instructions, people are going to interpret those directions differently and people are going to draw their lines differently, each creating an entirely new work of art from one original work of art, which is this set of instructions, which is so cool. Between 1968 and his death in 2007, LeWitt created more than
00:53:13
Speaker
1270 wall drawings. Oftentimes they are executed on site and they generally exist for the duration of an exhibition so museums will put them up for a little while and then they will be destroyed. And
00:53:27
Speaker
That in turn also gives the work a ephemeral quality to it, which is really interesting as well. They are, in some sense, works of art meant to be destroyed as well. They can be installed, removed, and then reinstalled at another location. And also another thing to consider that this article brought up is
00:53:48
Speaker
when the piece of art is moved or when it's redrawn from the same set of instructions, it can also change based on scale. And that's another thing if you're working with a certain size wall or canvas or a different gallery space, the work is going to be entirely different as well, just based on the constraints of the space itself. So
00:54:07
Speaker
It's really interesting and I really like this idea that anyone can do this, but at the same time, we will all do it differently. So Saul is giving us these really amazing guidelines for how to create our own work of art.
00:54:26
Speaker
I think you're right, like yes, you can follow a set of instructions, almost kind of like a paint your number. But I think it's also inevitable that at some point the hands of the maker, who isn't the artist himself, it's the person who's actually installing it.
00:54:46
Speaker
their own perspective is kind of gonna come into play inherently, and I think that's kind of unavoidable. And I think that's also the point of Soul's work and why it was so groundbreaking as well, because it really does question the role of the artist. And that's what I love most about it. And I also think that's such a good place to stop for the end of our discussion here, because just like how we're questioning
00:55:14
Speaker
analyzing and thinking about this question, I could do that or my kid could do that. It's just like anything we do here is to think more critically. It's to challenge those thoughts and challenge the idea of what an artist is and what a piece of artwork is. And that is why someone like soul and someone like Pollock
00:55:33
Speaker
and someone like Duchamp with his freaking urinal are important and that's why we need to know about them. Okay, so we are going to take a little break and when we come back we are going to be talking about Northwest's iconic masterpiece.
00:56:14
Speaker
Welcome back everybody! Gianna, truly the universe works in mysterious ways. I cannot believe the impeccable timing of this situation and it just makes me really happy. I would also like to say that I've listened to a bunch of podcasts this week that also cover this topic and I just feel like we are the perfect people to contact in this situation.
00:56:39
Speaker
Obviously, I'm so glad that people are talking about the arts and creativity, but I'm also like, we should be national correspondents for this exact situation. I'm just saying that we need to get on E! News for when art news like this breaks to clear some things up.
00:56:55
Speaker
Bianca, I couldn't agree more. The stars strangely aligned with this episode and I couldn't be happier than to provide some clarity for our artist Miss Northwest. Truly. Okay.
Northwest's painting: Social media debate
00:57:09
Speaker
So basically I was at the grocery store buying supplies for Valentine's Day and I was listening to that same podcast I mentioned earlier from comments by celebs.
00:57:18
Speaker
where really most of the episode was spent talking about Brittany, but at the end, one of the hosts, Julie, says she briefly wants to mention this photo posted by Kim Kardashian on her story. Okay, so Julie asks the other host if she thinks North actually painted that because there's no way and she doesn't get what Kim is trying to do here. And then the other host, Emma, says, quote,
00:57:46
Speaker
That is some Picasso level shit. Do seven year olds paint like that? Is that a thing? Because I'm not well versed enough in seven year olds artistic abilities. Then Julie says, no, most people ages 20 and up can't paint like that. If that was her, there's some museum level shit going on.
00:58:07
Speaker
She's a prodigy if that's her, that's unheard of. There's no way that's her. And Emma says, that's some Monet shit. And both two artists, I would maybe, I get Monet a little bit more than I get Picasso, but still.
00:58:24
Speaker
And then Julie makes this joke about people our age as seven-year-olds trying to connect the dots and make that little Superman S that literally we all drew on every notebook, not painting a landscape like Northwest has. And they go on to say that Northwest clearly should have a career in the arts if this is her painting. And I'm like, I mean, I might agree.
00:58:46
Speaker
And please, like, everyone go listen to this episode. It's in our resources. I'm a new follower of comments by celebs, but I'm really just obsessed and loving this podcast and I love the hosts. Also a side note by using their commentary. We're not trying to say anything negative about their conversation on art.
00:59:05
Speaker
It was just so funny. One of those moments when you're listening to a podcast and you feel like they're your friends, so you want to just shout at the phone that North is 1,000% better than Picasso. I was like, she's not Picasso. Some girls listen to me. We cannot compare North to Picasso scum. I don't want to hear it again. Yeah, that's a travesty for sure. I'm not going to have it here on APT.
00:59:33
Speaker
So again, I'm just in the grocery store about to check out and I'm freaking out. I'm dying to see this piece of art because I was a few days late to listening to the podcast. I didn't see it on Kim's story. So I get home and I get on Twitter and sure enough, people are freaking out about North's painting. And then on Kim's story that day I saw it, she writes this post. Okay. I'm going to quote her.
00:59:58
Speaker
Don't play with me when it comes to my children. My daughter and her best friend have been taking a serious oil painting class where their talents and creativity are being encouraged and nurtured. North worked incredibly hard on her painting, which took several weeks to complete.
01:00:18
Speaker
As a proud mom, I wanted to share her work with everyone. I'm seeing op-ed pieces in the media and social media from grown adults breaking down whether or not my child actually painted this. How dare you see children doing some awesome things and then try to accuse them of not being awesome. Please stop embarrassing yourselves with the negativity and allow every child to be great.
01:00:44
Speaker
I'm here for this. Northwest painted that. Period. A bunch of letters, a bunch of exclamation points. Gianna, I need to know, do you stan a freaking supportive art parent? Oh my god, I've never stan her more. I mustn't do it.
01:01:03
Speaker
I like to think of myself as a cool art mom here on the podcast. That's not like the other art moms because instead of having her own kids, I instead decided to make a podcast for all my art bitches. But I stan.
01:01:19
Speaker
I don't understand how these people have not learned yet. Please don't come for a Kardashian's child. It will only end poorly for you. No, truly. And after she posted this on her Instagram, those op-ed pieces started retracting their statement, being like, North painted this art. And I was like, oh my god. Are you serious? No, I know.
01:01:41
Speaker
and let me just say it was a twitter fiasco one camp was absolutely on the side hell no she did not paint this and then the other was there i saw a tweet that actually said why was north's painting such a big deal to y'all overgrown asses a seven-year-old i don't know i also i don't
01:02:01
Speaker
And this isn't me trying to toot my own horn or anything and I was not painting like highly realistic landscape portraits at a young age. But I have like really interesting abstract drawings that I was obsessed with doing as a kid that were very design oriented and very like doodle oriented. And I still find myself like making those same doodles and gestures as an adult today.
01:02:26
Speaker
And that's really important to me in developing my style. And I still have these drawings and I go back to them. And I was about seven years old when I started doing this shit. And I look at that and I'm like, damn. When I look at that, I feel like my life makes sense.
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Also, just to go back, there were a bunch of people on Twitter comparing North to Picasso. And again, we're not here for that. So I would just like to if we're going to have this conversation, let's compare her to all of the amazing landscape women artists who work in that medium. We posted a TikTok about it if you want to see some more.
01:03:02
Speaker
Or let's compare her to Artemisia or Lavinia, like do not hit me with any of that Picasso bullshit. Also the fact that, I mean, I'm not on Twitter because if I'm being honest, Twitter scares me. But the fact that we are not talking about the Bob Ross of it all, I will not have any disrespect for Bob Ross in this house. So I'm sorry, I'm here for a Bob Ross-esque landscape painting good on her.
01:03:31
Speaker
Right. Exactly. I feel as though this brings up just another issue of creative expression within the arts. I feel like people are always suspicious of visual art other than other forms of art because we don't have this understanding of it. We have this intimidation. We have this super hierarchical history, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We know this. We've talked about this a lot on the pod.
01:03:59
Speaker
We get it. And I do understand this suspicion because visual arts demands a different kind of participation from the viewer than it does for audible art or even performance art. Both music and a play or a musical or even a movie all demand a
01:04:18
Speaker
participator and it's a very mutual partnership between the art and the person. But those are things we are exposed to more perhaps and are more normalized to that and inherently we pick up on these things and recognize significant moments within that kind of art that doesn't always come so naturally to us when we are talking about a specific artwork.
01:04:42
Speaker
So we haven't been given any kind of video or action of North creating her art, but if we heard a recording of her playing a violin, hypothetically,
01:04:56
Speaker
Would we have the same level of suspicion? Because I feel like, one, we talk about musically inclined or talented, if we want to use that word, children more often. Also, I feel like music is pushed and admired by parents because we know music affects on the minds and a developing brain, and we know that that's important. But where are those studies for other forms of art? I don't know.
01:05:21
Speaker
But second, we would also think that debunking North playing a musical instrument would be an easier gotcha moment, or be easier to be proven. And therefore, we most likely would believe Kim right off the bat. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. But a painting on the other hand, hmm.
01:05:47
Speaker
How mysterious. A painting. I don't trust painting. I don't trust painting. Suspicion, suspicion. So easy to fake. Let us automatically hate on it because we aren't thinking about these deeper questions.
01:06:05
Speaker
Yeah. And I just also wanted to say that I have spent more time probably than necessarily zooming in on the painting and analyzing it and looking at it. And to Gianna's point earlier, like it is very painterly. It does kind of emit this Bob Ross-esque, like very quick work, very quick brush strokes.
Art training vs. natural talent
01:06:27
Speaker
And I think that it's kind of like a
01:06:31
Speaker
almost like a visual trick or a trompe l'oeil maybe that's probably I don't know a little bit too grand for this but when you look at the at Norse painting from far away it's one of those kind of tricks where it looks so detailed but then you zoom in on it and it's just the brushwork is a little looser you know she is seven years old and can use more training if she wants to tighten up the details but
01:06:58
Speaker
I do want to say that I understand, not that I understand people questioning North and her capabilities, especially as what Gianna just said, because it's a visual work of art, but I do understand looking deeper into the privilege that North has and that
01:07:22
Speaker
the Kardashians have that Kim has to be able to put her child through oil painting classes. So I think that there's this idea sometimes that artists have to work a lot. They have this kind of natural born talent to really make it big in the art world. They have this natural capability to create something beautiful.
01:07:45
Speaker
And that is true. I think that a lot of artists have that natural talent, that natural capability to create, but it does take training. Obviously art takes training and you get better and you practice and you go through classes and I
01:08:05
Speaker
I just want to say that I do think that what we can talk about instead of did North do this or did she not do this is maybe have a broader discussion of privilege in the arts. What does it mean for
01:08:20
Speaker
artists who have trained consistently to be able to do this. And of course, you know, this is like maybe a bit of a stretch, but thinking about North and the tradition of women painters, I mean, women for so long were not allowed to train and they were not allowed to study art. And I think that landscapes have this
01:08:47
Speaker
really fantastic tie to women artists, like thinking about Rosa Bonheur and Linda Nocklens. Why have there been no great women artists essay? I just think that there are a lot of other connections and stronger conversations to have about this than did she do it or not.
01:09:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. 100% Bianca. I just think we're, we're missing the bigger point of it all, which is why I, I kind of just can't with the whole. Did she, did she not debate on Twitter? Yeah.
Fostering artistic appreciation from a young age
01:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
01:09:24
Speaker
But I think this is, this is so exciting. I just, I love that not only was this extremely poignant for today's episode, but I really, I am excited to see the conversation around the arts and also to see that Kim is
01:09:40
Speaker
taking our child to an oil painting class. I mean, I think that's amazing. And I am so excited to see that, so. Yeah, and Bianca, and we were talking about this earlier when this whole thing started, but what you brought up in that,
01:09:56
Speaker
Pivotal perspective of we can talk about the privilege of what it means to be a trained person in arts Yeah, but I and I also am so privileged to have grown up in an environment where art is appreciated like norse father is an artist and it makes a lot of sense that she Has grown up in an environment that fosters creativity and appreciates that and that's also beautiful and wonderful and I just
01:10:23
Speaker
It's hard for me to kind of see that work try to be debunked when I too took formal art classes
01:10:32
Speaker
in our community as a child. I have very still to this day, vivid memories of works that I created in that class. And that is really significant to me. And so I just feel like this is truly going to be a very significant moment in North's life. And whatever her career may be, I just want us to acknowledge this moment, respect this moment, respect a young girl's painting, and call it a day. Agreed.
01:11:02
Speaker
to segue maybe into the end to wrap up our conversation. I hope that we can continue talking about this at our APT happy hour event taking place on February 25th. So don't forget to mark your calendars. And I'm really excited to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for happy hour. I could use a good happy hour. Yes.
01:11:28
Speaker
Next week, we are so excited to be interviewing art and BLM. They facilitate a collaborative exchange of art to raise money for anti-racist action. You can go follow them at rxblm, and their website is rxblm.com. But we're really so excited and thrilled to chat with them next week. We can't wait. Yeah, I'm so excited for you guys to hear the conversation. It'll be so good. And with that, we will talk to you all on Tuesday. Bye, everyone. Bye.
01:12:01
Speaker
Art Pop Talk's production assistant is Audrey Kaminski, music and sounds by Josh Turner, photography is by Adrian Turner, and our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:12:30
Speaker
you