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Offseason Off Topic: Chasing Billy Part 2
32 Plays1 month ago
Aloha and welcome to another episode of OPE! This is part two of a conversation with Billy the Kid Coalition Board Member and Chasing Billy host James Townsend! Iowa Joe and James take an abridged look at the life of Billy the Kid. and have a discussion about the possibility didn't die on the night of July 14th/15th 1881
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Transcript
Intro
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome
Introduction & Welcome Back
00:00:20
Speaker
back to Hope. This is part two of off-season off-topic episode one. Jason Billy with Jace Townsend. Please enjoy and remember, Aloha Go Pack Go. All right, so yeah, we are going to jump ahead
Historical Figure Comparisons
00:00:32
Speaker
a little bit. You know, obviously Tunstall gets killed.
00:00:35
Speaker
Billy starts, oh you know... They called the Wyatt Earp. I was going to say Wyatt Earp. Look at how I'm going now. Wyatt Earp's ride, the vengeance ride. or you know the And I think you could honestly call what Kidd did the same thing, is the vengeance ride with the regulators, where they were going to carry out vengeance on the Murphy Dolan.
00:01:02
Speaker
So this brings me to my question for you. And I know you've had this debate with with your fellow members of the coalition on your own chasing the Billy.
00:01:14
Speaker
Chasing the Billy. See, I keep throwing the out there, too. I'm just as bad Since personalized by the press, I'm telling you. yeah um um What confirmed kills can we attribute to Billy Kidd?
Billy the Kid in the Lincoln War
00:01:30
Speaker
Well, what I would confirm is what I would lay at his feet are one-on-one kills. and And that's Frank Cahill in self-defense. That's Joe Grant in Fort Sumner in 1880 that we really don't know the circumstances of.
00:01:46
Speaker
There are a couple stories handed down to us. And that, I mean, that might be it. I mean, is it possible that he killed people outside of our known history? Yeah, absolutely.
00:02:00
Speaker
So much happens off the pages of documented history. But he was involved in some notorious killings that were part of the Lincoln War. And because of that, he was marked in the press as a killer.
00:02:14
Speaker
And then it just ballooned from there. So they killed a guy named Sheriff William Brady. He was the sheriff of Lincoln County. He was responsible for a lot of the bad. He was in Murphy's pocket.
00:02:26
Speaker
He was against Tunstall. He was involved in Tunstall's murder indirectly. I'm sure he didn't mind that it happened. A lot of and injustices happened at the hands of Brady. So the regulators decided, I kind of think at the behest of Alex McSween, who I think put him up to it, but the regulators decided killed sheriff brady in the street of lincoln on april 1st 1878 so uh they hide behind an adobe wall and sheriff brady and his deputies are walking down the street and they they gun him down and and that's just that's there's no way around it that is an assassination it's an ambush and it's uh in their minds an act of war but when you look at it objectively
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's a it's a murder of a law officer.
Vengeance and Notorious Shootouts
00:03:16
Speaker
And then later on, just about six days later, there's a shootout between the regulators, about 12 of them, and a guy named Andrew Roberts at this place called Blazer's Mill.
00:03:28
Speaker
And Roberts, he kills one of them and he he wounds... a few others and it's like 12 men against one. And it's like the coolest shootout story. One of the coolest of the West and, uh, Roberts did end up dying, but he held his own. And, uh, there's a lot of gut, you know, guts and courage to that. But, you know, Bonnie, you can't say that Bonnie killed Brady and you can't say that Bonnie killed Roberts.
00:03:56
Speaker
And then other killings. There was an Indian agent, an assistant to the Indian agent named Morris Bernstein, who was killed.
00:04:07
Speaker
But it 90 percent wasn't Billy. And newspapers laid so many deaths to his at his feet that he didn't take part in. A blacksmith named James J. Young, complete fabrication.
00:04:19
Speaker
Two Chisholm Cowboys that they even gave the names of, but they they lived way past them. They weren't killed by Billy. Who else did they say? They say he killed Joe Ferris, who was actually killed by Barney Mason. I mean, they just made this stuff up and made Billy a killer in the papers way more than he really was.
00:04:40
Speaker
And you've got to wonder if a lot of that was... Didn't they also say about, um I'm forgetting names, Morton, Baker, and McCluskey?
00:04:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I can't believe I forgot about those. Yeah, they were, I want to say that was before Brady. they The regulators captured Morton and Baker, who were directly involved in the shooting of Tunstall, and they took them by this back road to Lincoln,
00:05:11
Speaker
And they were shot, quote, attempting to escape. how However hard an escape they attempted is up for grabs, along with one of the folks who were with the regulators, a guy named McCloskey,
Character Analysis of Billy & Jesse
00:05:23
Speaker
who did not want Morton and Baker killed.
00:05:27
Speaker
So they killed him, too. It was a war of vengeance. And, you know, both sides were out to kill you. And that's just how it was. You can't sugarcoat that. But wasn't just vicious outlaw.
00:05:40
Speaker
murder. You know, Billy wasn't just out there, you know, I'm going to rob people and kill them. that' That's not the kind of person Billy was. And that can be objectively proven. Like, you look at Jesse James.
00:05:52
Speaker
yeah and A lot of people make him out to be a hero. a lot of people make him out to be a Robin Hood type character. But he was a Confederate gorilla. And as far as we know, he wasn't exactly ah ah compassionate, heroic vigilante Like he, you know, he would shoot a bank teller just for the hell of it, or yeah even when he didn't need to.
00:06:17
Speaker
He seemed to be a lot more vicious. And a lot of outlaws were just vicious for the sake of it. And that just wasn't who Billy was. I mean, like I said, everybody who had an interaction with Billy came back with a good opinion of him.
00:06:31
Speaker
and remembered him well. So it's it's it's really a case of of the press making him out to be this this vicious killer. And then just, a I think something else that played into it is just pure capitalism. I mean, this kid was stealing a lot of cattle from a lot of rich people and they just wanted him gone.
00:06:55
Speaker
I mean, you can't do that. So that was an issue too. That was a factor. Well, one of my favorite stories on the Sepatico was that Billy became so proficient at stealing horses that he had two of them in his hand, and two bridles in his hand.
00:07:13
Speaker
and he was trying to, you know, the guy was like, i need a couple of horses. And Billy's like, well, I got two of them here. And he goes, well, where did you get them from? well, you know, this guy over here had them. And, you know, he just kind of walked. but So he was just so good at it.
00:07:28
Speaker
but you know you you bring and i kind of started the ball rolling with jesse james and all that i think the thing about him and billy the kid that they have in common is the tragedies they had at while they were young because you know billy billy had his with his mother dying when he was 14. they moved around a lot because of her disease you know jesse james his dad died when he you know went basically went ran off to california to find his and you know he ended up dying while while jesse and frank were young and then when the civil war started you know they had all kinds of things so that's again you know that road diverged for jesse where he became this you know cold-blooded you know bank robber and that and billy went the other way and you know he was more the ambial or uh
00:08:25
Speaker
more likable and all that stuff.
Influence of Civil War & Guerrilla Conflicts
00:08:27
Speaker
Well, and unfortunately, it was just vicious in Missouri. I mean, when you you, you can talk about the causes of the Civil War and, you know, the injustice of slavery and things like that, but when things popped off in Missouri and Kansas, it probably, and I don't think Jesse James was an abolitionist by any stretch of the imagination, but the issue was like,
00:08:54
Speaker
he saw federal troops do unspeakable things to his folks. And, yeah you know, regardless of of the objective right of any cause or the wrong of any cause, you know, a lot of times you're responding to the trauma that you see and that happens to you in your immediate vicinity.
00:09:15
Speaker
And so, yeah, a lot of that, you know, and unfortunately he ended up under Quantrill and then bloody bill anderson and all those guys who were just vicious and so that was the uh the trial by fire that he had and you you talk about the uh the atrocities i mean the one thing that i always point to people about what made jesse james jesse james is frank went off and obviously joined the confederacy and yeah union troops showed up to
00:09:48
Speaker
the James farm and what demanded to know where Frank was. They beat Jesse to a pulp. They drug his step dad out. Yeah. And multiple times they weren't just like hanging him. They were like, right, yanking them up and down just to get them to talk and and and stuff like that. And you got to think that had, you'd honestly have to think most people would end up in that progression going through that stuff because unlike maybe what billy felt about antrim jesse and his stepdad they were close and they you know to see that happen after you just got your your butt handed to you by these troops really and this isn't me sticking up for jesse for anything
Exaggeration of Billy's Reputation
00:10:40
Speaker
i just say that this is no
00:10:42
Speaker
this is this from a guy that has like hundreds of books on jesse the j jesse the j jesus james you got me going on this
00:10:54
Speaker
jesse james i've read every a lot of things i've listened to a lot of things and he had it in him because even when he was younger they said that if he flipped a switch yes he was a terror But it was very hard for him to become that terror.
00:11:14
Speaker
And it just seems like when that happened when he was a kid, he flipped that switch and he just never went back. and right But that's for a whole nother episode, James. what We're here for the... true your for I will say, i will say you know you can look at that and look at the regulators and the Murphy faction and the Lincoln County War and you say, like objectively,
00:11:37
Speaker
it's it's two sides in both instances fighting for their lives. And, and there, there's, there is not a good side. And, and when you look at, you know, folks like Jim Lane and the Jayhawkers and stuff and the things that they did, the gorillas on both sides were just vicious. And unfortunately it produces these kinds of people.
00:11:55
Speaker
And, and, and then you get back to the Lincoln County war and there's viciousness on both sides. And there's, you know, it's just, it's just a, ah ah circumstances of the times and then the trauma that that those times produce in people and and this is what you get and it's hard for us to even fathom it but yeah uh i don't even know how we got to jesse james but we were talking about morton and baker but yeah the kid again these were these were lincoln war posse killings and laying them at the feet of billy alone is is not
00:12:29
Speaker
just and not appropriate. So really the only documented kills of the kid are two or three and two as far as I can think of right now.
00:12:41
Speaker
And we also have to wonder, all those newspapers reported that Billy killed one man for each year of his 21 years. So, you know, all these newspapers said he killed 21 men, you know, each one, one for each year he was alive. And so It also says that he told people that. So you have to wonder how much of this was bravado that came from Billy's own lips.
00:13:06
Speaker
Because back then, and I think that's possible, because back then, if you can stop a fight with your reputation, then you've, you know, you've lived another day without having to shoot somebody or draw your gun.
00:13:18
Speaker
So did he walk around telling people, look, i've I've killed tons of people, you know, just to get that reputation? Because he was an outlaw. Well, don't forget the caveat that it was that's not including Mexicans and Indians.
00:13:30
Speaker
You know, that that was 21-1 for every year, but that didn't include the Mexicans and the Indians, which is weird because one of the things that is well known about Billy is that his people were the Mexican people. He ingratiated himself amongst the Mexicans.
00:13:48
Speaker
He learned Spanish. He, you know, he got to the point where he was basically adopted by the Mexicans. that you know so But I'm going to jump ahead quite a bit here since we're we're kind of we're a little over an hour at this point. So we know that he's he's said to have been one of the ones that killed Brady.
00:14:12
Speaker
And that's the one that hangs around him for the rest of life. his his life we get to the point after the lincoln county war ends with the mcsween fire and mcsween dying and that's something i want to talk to you that that'll have to be another episode because i i got to thinking that maybe mcsween was just as bad as shyster as maybe the dolan uh murphy dolan faction was just the way he was uh think it's possible and It just really sounds like it the he ran from one too many places because he was, he was no what's what's the term for it? He was taking money.
00:14:55
Speaker
God, I can't think of the term of it. oftentime here There you go, embezzling money from from clients. So it just makes me wonder if Tunstall and the rest of them ingratiated themselves with the wrong person. And that's what led to all the hardships.
Billy's Daring Escape from Lincoln County
00:15:10
Speaker
oh but we know the brady killing is the one that really put billy on the radar for someone who needed to be caught and we know he was caught multiple times but he always tended to get away from him now i know you and josh talked about this on one of your episodes and
00:15:31
Speaker
i i think we I think the idea there, but just how it came about. The story was always that Billy's could slip cuffs easy because of the way his wrists and his hands were.
00:15:48
Speaker
And I always thought that it was because he could he was like double jointed in the thumb to where he could pop his thumb over and that allowed the cuff to slip off his hand a little bit better.
00:16:03
Speaker
What do you think is what made it easy for Billy to escape? Because obviously Houdini doesn't come around for another, you know, 10, 20 years.
00:16:14
Speaker
So we know, he you know, this is Houdini before Houdini is in the spotlight. So what, what in your opinion made it so easy for Billy to, you know, slip cuffs or escape the unexcapable?
00:16:30
Speaker
Well, I do know, thanks to one of our Chasing Billy viewers, because, you know, a lot of times we suspected that maybe this wrist handcuff thing was a myth.
00:16:43
Speaker
But recently, I think it was my buddy Brian who messaged me and said that that's in Garrett's book. It may have been someone else, but I think it was Brian. And so we know Garrett talks about the kid being able to slip cuffs because of his thin wrists or something.
00:17:01
Speaker
thin hand I don't know. I don't put much stock in it. I don't think he could do that all the time. I don't think it was a Houdini feature of his, but you know that's just my opinion. It could be true.
00:17:15
Speaker
As far as it applies to his escape from the courthouse on April 28, 1881, I honestly think the story lines up the way it was originally reported in most papers.
00:17:29
Speaker
i think he you know bell was lax uh i think hang on let let's let's go ahead and tell the full story of that escape yeah so that that way we can give these people the listeners a little bit of context if they don't know it so garrett captures the captures kid at stinking springs eden And they bring him to the Lincoln County Courthouse. They set kind of separate him away from all the other prisoners of the courthouse. So he's kind of got like his own g room, but they they shackle his hands and his feet and it's they shackle him to the floor.
00:18:05
Speaker
and his meals are brought to him and the only way he's let out is if he's if he goes to what they call the privy which is just basically the outhouse right you know for those kids that may be listening that was what they used as toilets before indoor plumbing so you just you dug a hole in the backyard and and that was your that was your shitter so yeah on that day which is it's april 1881 eighteen eighty one yep
00:18:34
Speaker
He asks James Bell, James W. Bell, there's a lot of James going on in these stories.
00:18:42
Speaker
He says, hey, I need to go use the privy, the outhouse, or whatever. So Bell takes him down, and he has to go downstairs out the back. Bob Ollinger is also one of the deputies on duty. He took the other prisoners over to get them something to eat.
00:19:01
Speaker
On the way back, And this is really an abridged version. If you guys really want know detailed stories about this, please check out James' podcast and show and check out what they do because his they put a lot of they they dig into a lot of the stories and put in a lot of detail on this.
00:19:19
Speaker
But on the way back, they don't quite know what happened, whether it was Billy slipped the cuffs, somebody slipped him a key, you know, whatever. But he manages to get free of the cuffs.
00:19:33
Speaker
hit bell with them grabs bell's gun bell goes to run billy shoots bell and then this is one of the one of the most known scenes everywhere bollinger is known to have taunted billy with the shotgun and young guns to it was that he had you know what is a dollar 80 worth of dimes and two shotgun shells and you know that's the best dollar 80 i've ever spent That's right.
00:20:03
Speaker
So ah Billy grabs Ollinger's beloved shotgun, goes to the window. Ollinger has already heard the shot, comes running out. Now, the story that I've heard on a couple of them is Frank Goss is, i think that's his name, is down there. Godfrey.
00:20:22
Speaker
Godfrey. and And yells at Ollinger, Billy just killed Bell. And then you hear the famous hello, Bob. And Olinger looks up and he says, well, he killed me too. And two shots are fired and pretty much cuts Olinger in half.
00:20:40
Speaker
So like I said, that's really an abridged version of the escape. If you want more detail, you know, like I said, check out James's a show and check out the the Billy the Kid Coalition because they they have a lot better detail than my rushed story here.
00:20:58
Speaker
But so what and there's a lot of different things with it so let's go ahead and pick up with what you were saying what you what you think is the uh version that is probably more accurate i i personally i just think first off nobody will ever know what happened inside that courthouse there was just two people and that was bell and billy but i really think that Billy had both cuffs on one wrist.
00:21:29
Speaker
And whether that's because he was uncuffed to go to the bathroom, you know, you can't wipe if you're shackled. So they take they taste very different all the cuffs off, put it on the other one. So say on his left hand, he has two huge wrist cuffs.
00:21:46
Speaker
So for whatever reason, or Bell perhaps was just lax and trusted Billy and let him walk around with with the wrists undone. At any rate, I think as they were going back in, Billy knocked Bell in the head with his cuffs, gashed it, you know, gave him a good gash, and then grabbed Bell's gun from his holster.
00:22:08
Speaker
And there was a struggle, and Bell was shot somewhere on the staircase and went staggering down the stairs and outside and and fell into Goss's arms and died.
00:22:20
Speaker
That gave Billy enough time to run, grab Bob's shotgun and look out the window to see Bob running across the street. There are different theories. know Josh, my co-host buddy, thinks kind of leans towards the the outhouse planted gun theory.
00:22:37
Speaker
and And there's all kinds of theories. And that's just the way I lean is how that I think that happened. But, yeah, there's a lot of different theories as to what happened. Nobody really knows.
00:22:49
Speaker
You know, I go back to the whole being able to slip the cuffs thing. With Billy being able to escape like he did, I wonder if there was a way that he knew how to... And I know I keep throwing the Houdini thing out there because who Houdini, I'm another fan of Houdini, so I just i love this stuff.
00:23:08
Speaker
And it makes you wonder if Billy was able to figure a way whether it was a nail in the outhouse that came loose or you know somebody slipped a file in there or whatever that he was able to you know jimmy and that that that you know ah ah manacle basically because they're not the cuffs that we think of today. right They were heavy irons.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. so It makes me wonder that now I know this is a big contention with you and the coalition. and i just i i just i didn't realize how much of a contention it was until after watching you guys for a little bit because i absolutely love the episode of brad melcher's decoded where they and i just i'm a big brad melcher fan anyway yeah but they talk about how and i can't think of who the guy that they were walking around the courthouse with and might have been drew gumber maybe
00:24:10
Speaker
I yeah, I can't. It's been a little bit since I saw the episode because unfortunately they don't run the the reruns of it
Controversies & Blood Evidence
00:24:17
Speaker
on anymore. So I got to find it sparingly. But claim that they luminol or whatever the whole top floor.
00:24:27
Speaker
And, you know, there was a giant blood spot at the top of the stairs. So, you know, they believe that Bell was killed at the top of the stairs.
00:24:37
Speaker
But yeah I know that that's kind of a contentious spot with you guys because you know at least I hear you guys ragging on it a lot when when that kind of thing comes up. So you know what are what's your thoughts with that? is could Could in theory it be wrong that Belle was killed up top? yeah Because I know the story is is Godfrey says that Belle comes running out to him and then dies.
00:25:05
Speaker
So what what's your thoughts on that? A lot of that stems to a larger issue we have with the guy who peddles that theory, Steve Sederwald.
00:25:17
Speaker
he He wrote a book called The Dirty on Billy the Kid, and that's where he makes his contention. And at the time, you know, there was this big fiasco in New Mexico around 2004, right?
00:25:30
Speaker
These two Lincoln sheriff and deputy sheriff They wanted to determine whether Brushy was Billy or whether Billy was buried in Fort Sumner. So they started this process of trying to get the kid and his mother dug up.
00:25:47
Speaker
And there was a big fiasco and a lot of legal red tape and all this stuff. And kind of as a side thing, they did a forensic investigation at the courthouse. And Steve Cedarwall, they had a film crew, Curtis Productions, and they were going to make this documentary.
00:26:04
Speaker
and and just make a big show out of it. And there was there' was a lot of PR around it. The governor was involved in New Mexico at the time. And they brought in Henry Lee, who was the DNA expert on the O.J. Simpson case. He was like a celebrity DNA guy. So they brought him in.
00:26:22
Speaker
They filmed the whole thing. And Henry Lee went up there with the Q-tip swab and this chemical called otolidine and tested it. And it's in the report.
00:26:33
Speaker
The report is included in Steve's book. The report is, it was provided in a lawsuit that this author, Gail Cooper, she took Steve to court and eventually was able to wrangle the report from from that.
00:26:49
Speaker
So the report of the testing of the the top of the stairs for blood is available publicly. And it says they use this otolidine agent.
00:27:01
Speaker
Well, There was this picture floating around, and I'm sure you've seen it. a lot of folks have seen it ah of the top of the stairs with what looks like bloodstains, right? And so it was made into a postcard, and it was sold at this store.
00:27:14
Speaker
And the the general idea of the postcard and and what you'll see it referred to on old Facebook posts as and what folks will generally assume is that, hey, they tested for for this postcard.
00:27:29
Speaker
blood presence at the top of the stairs and these blood stains came up or like they'll say those are the blood stains at the top of the stairs look at all that blood but some variation of that but the issue is is those aren't blood stains you know and so we question whether that was really some kind of dna agent used to bring that up for that photograph And the issue is, but Steve Cedarwall's response to that was, that's the luminol. After it's been sprayed, we just took a picture of the luminol on the floor.
00:28:06
Speaker
Well, the issue is luminol, when you spray it on a on something that could be presumptive for blood, shines bright neon blue, right? And they take a photograph of it. And it the issue is, is that why would you photograph luminol after the fact, just to show a stain a wet stain that doesn't do anything.
00:28:26
Speaker
Why would you allow people for years to to assume it was bloodstains? And why is luminol not in the official publicly available reports of Dr. Henry Lee?
00:28:37
Speaker
He never mentions luminol testing. Luminol is a spray or a liquid that you pour over the the area. He used a Q-tip and this chemical called otolidine, and that's in the report. So there's just, there's a lot of inconsistencies with how that investigation was done.
00:28:54
Speaker
And I know like in Steve's book, it'll, you know, and I'm giving a paraphrase, I may be wrong in the quote, but I'm fairly certain it says the testing with luminol was done at noon or sometime around lunchtime.
00:29:07
Speaker
But then in another documentary, he's He's talking about doing it it at nighttime, so at at two different times. So there's just a lot of sketchiness about this luminol thing. So it's not really like the theory. you know I think it's great when people disagree about history because it's good content, but it's also fun. like I razz people, and and I roast people who disagree with me because it's fun and we have a good time.
00:29:32
Speaker
I don't care if people will disagree about history, but like I hate sketchiness, and I hate when something is... almost exaggerated to the point of almost being a lie. I don't like that. And so that's the luminal stuff.
00:29:46
Speaker
But if you if you look at Sophie Poe's book, she was the wife of John Poe, who was the deputy who was present the night Billy was killed.
Death of Billy the Kid: Theories & Narratives
00:29:55
Speaker
They moved into the Lincoln courthouse after Billy's death and when John Poe became sheriff.
00:30:01
Speaker
She said, we had to clean the bloodstains off the stairs where where Bell bled out and And the way she refers to it is up and down the staircase. She said there was blood all over up and down the staircase.
00:30:14
Speaker
So that's not at the top of the landing. And so, right you know, we we I could spend a whole episode talking about this staircase thing. but But it it's also part of a larger, I'll tell you this about history, man, I'm sure.
00:30:26
Speaker
you encounter this in sports is that passions run high and, uh, we are, uh, you know, we, we've kind of run a foul, but we used to be good friends with Steve Cedar wall.
00:30:37
Speaker
And, we have since not been good friends and it is wild, man. These like feuds and these disagreements, it almost goes way past just history. And it's like, how did we get this deep in something crazy?
00:30:53
Speaker
But, that's just how it is but yeah i could talk for hours about that and it makes you wonder because if kid really did hit bell over the top of the head and create a giant gash that's going to create a giant pool of blood too there's going to be a and of blood there's going to be a big splatter from the gash and then if he shoots him as he's running down the stairs so that makes you wonder too it just i i know i hear you guys talk about it all the time on on the show that I finally had to get the skinny on it. so
00:31:24
Speaker
It's just the fact that we don't think luminol was used. I don't see any report where it was. and Unfortunately, the stairs have been replaced. so Whatever ba was on that staircase, man, it's gone.
00:31:38
Speaker
all right so We're going to jump ahead because I want to have this debate and I know we're going to have to let ah let you go on it. but ah so We jumped to July 14, 1881. eighteen eighty one yeah and it's supposedly they billy the kid was killed now i know that it could have been the nice the perspective so now i want to preference this by saying that you know ah ah when i was first getting into a lot of this yeah i kind of said okay well brushy's got to be the guy right but
00:32:13
Speaker
As I got going on and read and I actually have some of Dan Edwards books on the shelf and that and whatever. And finally it just got to the point where supposedly this guy's done everything.
00:32:26
Speaker
Why don't we know more about him You know, Rough Riders. He had his own traveling show. He had this. He did this. You know, why don't we know about it?
00:32:38
Speaker
So... i know i'm completely out on the now that's not to say maybe brushy could be like a relative because if you look the pictures of brushy them big ol ears he's got them billy ears so you know who knows maybe that maybe that there was a relation there or something i don't know and he just decided to go buy it With me, just like you were saying with the blood and the luminol and the and all that stuff, it's kind of sketchy.
00:33:09
Speaker
The events that I've heard and read and all that stuff of the night, it doesn't compute in my mind with how I would see it going.
00:33:21
Speaker
And I know Josh has said, well, you can't have a 21st century mind with a 19th century problem. And I agree with that 100%. you know There's no way unless you can go back in time and put like night cameras up night vision cameras up and all that, you're never going to know. But just some of the things that were said and done, just it doesn't compute for me.
00:33:45
Speaker
right So I'll let you go ahead and give the what the official version of that night is, and then i'm going to poke at it So I'll kind of give i'll give an official war version real quick, and then I'll give a real quick version of what I think happened, and then ah ah and then we'll talk from there.
00:34:04
Speaker
Okay. Because you're right, it's sketchy. and I don't think anybody can read the objective accounts and think, everything's on a level here. like Right.
00:34:15
Speaker
ah ah Something's weird. but So officially, according to basically Pat and John Poe, so there are two... firsthand accounts that that come down to us, pretty much both of them go into great length talking about what happened.
00:34:33
Speaker
And that's from Pat Garrett, the sheriff of Lincoln County, who actually killed Billy the Kid, if you want to think he was killed. And then so he he came out a year later in 1882 with The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid, a book.
00:34:47
Speaker
And then at the very end, he talks, he says what happened. So he gives a detailed account of what happened. the night Billy was killed. The other was by John W. Poe, who was Sheriff Garrett's deputy, who was outside of the room where it happened.
00:35:03
Speaker
And he he wrote a short little book called The Death of Billy the Kid. It was more like an article, wasn't it? It was like an article for the Wild West magazine.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, for a Wide World magazine, I think. Somewhere around 1915 was when it was released. And Josh Slatton, my co-host and director of the coalition, just reissued that book fairly extensively annotated. so I got it on my list of the next thing I'm getting as soon as the paycheck comes in. Yes. I'll do a quick little plug for him there, but it's a really good book.
00:35:36
Speaker
Got a lot of good maps drawn up in it by... Our friend mel Mel Hubner, she's in England, but she has some great maps of like the layout of Fort Sumner and Maxwell's house and all that. But anyway, so two main accounts, right, of that night by Poe and Garrett.
00:35:54
Speaker
Now, later on in the 30s, a couple other people gave their versions, Fort Sumner residents like Jesus Silva and uh paco anaya and then delavina maxwell has given a couple different anecdotes so we've got some first-hand accounts that come down to us going off of poe and garrett the main accounts and the the two accounts that are the most in-depth basically they they go to fort sumner because they hear billy is in the vicinity
00:36:25
Speaker
They're looking around for him. And at night, they're about to give up the chase. Garrett kind of feels like Billy's not here. And so according to Poe, John Poe says to Garrett, well, let's stop by Maxwell's house.
00:36:38
Speaker
He's a friend of yours. Let's just ask him what he knows. So they go to the house of Pete Maxwell. Pete Maxwell's family owns Fort Sumner. They own the whole, it's an old army base that has turned into a little town, and they own all the buildings.
00:36:53
Speaker
So Garrett and Poe ride to Maxwell's house. They, with them is another deputy. There's Garrett and Poe and Deputy McKinney. So there's three three cops, if you want to use that language.
00:37:07
Speaker
po Poe and McKinney are left outside. by the There's a fence that runs along Maxwell's house, and they Poe sits down at the porch, and McKinney sits at the gate, and Garrett goes inside Pete Maxwell's bedroom.
00:37:23
Speaker
There's a door on the outside that leads directly, you know excuse me, allergies here are crazy. There's a door that goes- I had to go mow earlier, so mine are all messed up, too. It's nuts.
00:37:34
Speaker
and So McKinney sits at the gate of the fence, Poe sits on his porch steps, and Garrett goes inside Maxwell's bedroom, which has a door on right there on the porch. So he goes in and sits at Maxwell's bed, wakes him up and says, Pete, it's Pat Garrett, is the kid in town.
00:37:54
Speaker
While this is happening, Poe sees a young man walking the fence line yeah towards Pete Maxwell's house.
00:38:06
Speaker
And he says he's buckling up his pants, He doesn't have any boots on. He just has his like undershirt on. So barefoot, putting his belt on, that kind of thing.
00:38:19
Speaker
Somehow he has a gun and a knife too in his hands. So he's walking towards the house. He sees Poe and McKinney all of a sudden, pulls his gun and says, who is it in Spanish? Canis.
00:38:35
Speaker
And and So Poe stands up, McKinney stands up, and Poe responds in English. It's okay, we're friends. And this this young man who has his gun drawn on the deputies walks past them and goes into Maxwell's bedroom where Pat and Pete are.
00:38:53
Speaker
He walks in, it's dark, and he says, Pete, who are those men outside? And at that point, he notices Pat, but he doesn't see who it is. He just sees this other person.
00:39:04
Speaker
And he says, K&S, again, who is it in Spanish? K&S. And Pat recognizes Billy's voice, pulls his gun, and shoots. And it hits Billy in the heart. Billy falls down and dies within a minute or two.
00:39:17
Speaker
Doesn't say anything, just hears some gurgling and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Basically the death rattle. Yeah. So that's basically Poe and Garrett's version.
00:39:29
Speaker
Now, sorry. by Sorry. It feels like there's 800 hairs in my throat. So I was talking with Mel Hubner, who did those maps a while back.
00:39:41
Speaker
And it's funny because you'll cover the same ground so many times, but then one day something will just click. Right. So there are diagrams of Pete's bedroom that are contemporary with when Billy was shot.
00:39:58
Speaker
And it shows that there's no doorway. from the inside that leads to Pete's bedroom. There's only one door leading into Pete's bedroom and that's outside on the porch. So I don't know if that's just the way they remodeled the military base or what, when they bought it, I don't know.
00:40:14
Speaker
But that's, given the documentation we have, it appears that there was only one entrance into that room. So pat that obviously explains why Pat went into Pete's bedroom via the outside.
00:40:29
Speaker
but There are things that don't make sense in the narrative to me that don't necessarily mean that Billy wasn't killed. Right. But it does make me ask questions. And one is, why would two deputies allow a guy to pull a gun, walk past them, and go into the room where their sheriff is without raising any kind of alarm?
00:40:47
Speaker
And it makes sense more to me. We know that Billy's sweetheart was Paulita. Yeah. yeah Even though didn't she later deny it?
00:41:00
Speaker
yes very vehemently yeah but too many accounts uh too many accounts show that was the case and uh and i'll get to that here in a little bit but paulita maxwell was pete's sister she would have lived in the same house yeah long so if if billy was in paulita's room if he was sleeping with paulita and he He was getting up to the traditional story says that Billy was leaving to get some meat, to cut some meat off of this steer that was hanging on the porch to eat some dinner.
00:41:40
Speaker
A late midnight snack, maybe. But so if he was coming outside to cut some meat off of this steer. And he sees these two unidentified folks.
00:41:53
Speaker
And if Poe and McKinney are sitting outside and they see somebody come from Maxwell's house, walk outside with a butcher knife and say, who is it? Who is it?
00:42:06
Speaker
Then Poe will naturally get up and say, it's OK, we're friends, because he thinks he's talking to a Maxwell House member. He's not talking to somebody that's walking down the street. He's talking to someone who's just come out of Pete's house. So he already sees that person as an ally.
00:42:20
Speaker
And then that person is gets squirming, and he he has his revolver out, and he walks into Pete's room. They're not going to so much raise an alarm because they think he lives there. And so it makes a lot more sense to me if he's sleeping with Paulita, comes out, sees them, gets alarmed, goes to Pete's room, and that's why they don't raise an alarm. That's why they don't seem concerned, because he's come out.
00:42:43
Speaker
of the room and i don't care what century you live in if you're two law enforcement officers who see a guy walking down a street that you don't know and then you see him go into that room you're going to raise more of an alarm right for whatever reason i feel like both men poe and garrett altered their stories to protect paulina maxwell's reputation And I think that accounts for all the sketchiness in the accounts.
00:43:11
Speaker
But then you get more murky because folks like Jesus Silva and others, Paco and I came about 30 years later and started telling their old timer tales. And they, you know, Jesus Silva told stories that disagree with his previous story. So you get all these different accounts and it it just muddies the waters more.
00:43:32
Speaker
But I do think he was killed that night. And I think he came from the Maxwell house outside and then went back in. And that's the that's the sketchiness. Now now we can we can see what you, what what are you thinking?
00:43:46
Speaker
So I have problems from the start of it. One of the things that I think oh Garrett puts in his book and then it's kind of repeated and all the others.
00:43:58
Speaker
I've read the Poe account, but i you know obviously I want to get Josh's book just to read how you know what he's went through and put in it when garrett poe and mckinney first arrived they're like chilling out in this peach orchard and they hear and they obviously are close enough that they can hear a conversation going on they can hear it's going on in spanish they can discern it's going on in spanish but And then they see this person jump a fence.
00:44:30
Speaker
You know, I understand it's dark. You can't really see faces and whatever. So what they they can clearly say that they hear a conversation going on in Spanish. Well, if you're far enough a away that you can hear words, but you can't discern a conversation, how do you know what's going on in Spanish?
00:44:48
Speaker
Right. you You know, so that that's number one. All right, so then, like you said, that that kind of bothers me, too, that these two deputies are just letting this guy with a knife and pistol walk into a building.
00:45:03
Speaker
But the other side of it is it doesn't seem like Billy to see two guys that he has no idea who they are walk up to him.
00:45:17
Speaker
and Especially considering he just escaped from jail. He just shot two deputies. yeah you know the I'm assuming he's only traveling by night. That way there's not many more people that can see him. So he's doing more of his business at night.
00:45:35
Speaker
So he's going to see friends at night. He's going to see Paulita at night. you know And then during the day he's hiding out somewhere. So that is like number two that bugs the hell out of me on this situation.
00:45:49
Speaker
And like you said, them letting him into the room where they know their sheriff is and Pete Maxwell is. Well, I'm sorry. He could be going in there to chop Pete Maxwell up for some reason. You know, butcher knife, pistol.
00:46:01
Speaker
You know, maybe we need to stop this before it happens. So then this gets to my biggest problem.
00:46:09
Speaker
And I know you and Josh have maybe said something about this before that. I think Josh said that he kind of questions a little bit about the marksmanship and the speed that Billy may have had.
00:46:23
Speaker
with his firearms but it seems like every story that i've ever heard about billy talks about how of much of a proficient shooter he was i think there was one story in the simpatico that you know he could flip a ah ah silver dollar in the air and six shots six times hit that that silver dollar before it hit the ground so you know it so you've got maxwell on the bed you've got garrett sitting next to him Billy walks in you know, Key and Es, who is it, Pete? What's going on
00:46:57
Speaker
You know, basically, Pete, are you okay? You know, what what's going on here? Because at that time, we know that Pete and Billy were pretty well friends. We know that Pete probably dropped the dime on Billy anyway, because whether he didn't like Billy hanging out with his sister or whatever. Right.
00:47:15
Speaker
But Pat and Maxwell are sitting there. Billy's whispering. He's not full out just yelling, hey, Pete, are you okay in there? You know, he's he's whispering, you know, whatever.
00:47:31
Speaker
But Garrett says he he knows the kid's voice. You can't tell the voice going on in the peach orchard that you're clearly hearing, having the conversation, but now we're whispering and you can understand the kid's voice.
00:47:47
Speaker
Well, then the next thing you have is according to... the simpatico and i think it's in garrett's book maxwell says that's him that's the kid yeah now one of them says he's whispering the other one just says he starts you know shouting it well right if i got that going on i'm not just going to stand there saying what's you know who's this what's going on That just doesn't seem like a Billy thing for him to do unless, it you know, just just just give it to me.
00:48:20
Speaker
This isn't Billy. This is some guy just standing there. What are you talking about? i'm you know, trying to put off his case. Yeah. And then another part of it is Garrett gets off two shots. Billy doesn't get off any. Right. We've got a guy who's supposed to be proficient with the with the pistol.
00:48:41
Speaker
and faster than lightning with a pistol, and a guy who's average with a pistol, and he's able to get two shots off with a single-action army, and kid's got a self-cocker.
00:48:53
Speaker
If you believe he's got the self-cocker. Right. Now, I don't know how much about guns that you know about. I i always tell people i'm I'm liberal for the most part when it comes to politics, but the one thing I do know is guns. I've been shooting since I was three years old.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, I have a single action army clone that I keep next to my bed as my as my nighttime protection. I've been seeing shooting single action army since I was a kid.
00:49:23
Speaker
It it's hard to get two shots off when you're having to pull that hammer back, pull the trigger, hammer back trigger. unless you're just holding that trigger down and just pulling the hammer back whereas the kid has a self-cocker all he's got to do is pull the trigger if you believe he's got a self-cocker yeah i know there's been some some things about that that you know did he have a thunder or did he not did he have this right so that that is a whole lot of mess right there that just sketches me out oh wedding
00:49:59
Speaker
but but the next part of it is more that sketches me out even more i know they let silva in there and i know that they let delvina maxwell in there and of course delvina comes out crying you know they killed my boy they killed my boy and then just starts beating the hell out of garrett and oh and and all these guys but their immediate reaction is we're going to shut everything down and nobody's allowed in or out Which
Skepticism & Conspiracies Surrounding Billy's Death
00:50:26
Speaker
is understandable. You know, if these are all Billy's friends out here and you did actually kill Billy, you know, the first thing that they're going to do is come at you.
00:50:36
Speaker
But it didn't happen. There was, as far as I know with the stories, there was no mention of anybody even knocking on the door saying, hey, can we at least take a look?
00:50:48
Speaker
Right. So that sketches me out a little bit. And then the whole procession with the funeral stuff where they They secret him off to the carpenter's bench.
00:50:58
Speaker
They only allow a certain few in there. They do a coroner's inquest, but with only people that Garrett says can do the coroner's inquest.
00:51:10
Speaker
And when they do the coroner's inquest, he makes them put down there. we believe Pat Garrett should get the $500 reward for. That's funny.
00:51:21
Speaker
And then they buriey you know They make a quick casket, bury it. I think they said Garrett paid for the clothing or whatever and then they buried him and that's the end of it. so Throughout the whole thing, it just it gives me the sketch for anything.
00:51:36
Speaker
yeah It does play off more like he killed the wrong person because ah ah if it's my mindset and I just off an innocent, I don't want people to know that I offed innocent. so I'm going to make sure that I keep it tight-lipped.
00:51:56
Speaker
So that that's where I sit with it. Now, like I said, I don't believe the whole Brushy Bill, Billy Barlow, you know, yeah ah I I mean, maybe the inc Innocent's name would just happen to be Billy Barlow i coincidence or whatever.
00:52:12
Speaker
i know you posted on your official channel that there was a letter about Billy Barlow being the name involved in a song. an old Irish song or something like that.
00:52:25
Speaker
And so that could have just been brushy reminiscing or, you know, just coming up with a name on the top of his head or whatever. But that's where I sit.
00:52:36
Speaker
Well, I would definitely say that that a lot of that sketch you've just described is perfectly a perfectly appropriate response to a lot of what's depicted. I mean, those are legit.
00:52:50
Speaker
questions to raise. The peach orchard thing has always boggled my mind. Like, I don't even know why, but why do you even bring, it seems like they bring it up almost as as like when somebody brings something up that they think they're going to have to explain away. So they're trying to like get out in front of it.
00:53:09
Speaker
you know Like it never came up, but like, it's almost seems with like what they're doing. Like they're like, somebody's going to mention this peach orchard thing. so we ought to get out ahead of it. Cause like, it it has almost no bearing on the story. And you're like, you're like, I want to add no peach orchard, whatever. And there was like, what peach orchard are you talking even know what you're talking about.
00:53:27
Speaker
It's got that vibe to it. Uh, and it always has to me. So that's, yeah, I don't know what to make other peach orchard stuff. Jesus Silva tries to tie it in by saying it was him and Billy having a beer in the peach orchard. So, but they said it was Billy and a chick or somebody, I don't know.
00:53:42
Speaker
let's see, where'd you, where'd you, get what was your next thing? Well, something else I don't think you mentioned that always puzzles me is if Billy comes up, Billy's bilingual, he comes up and says, KNS and Poe stands up and says, we're friends in English. Why wouldn't Billy respond in English and keep responding? So. Well, and how, if you have a guy coming up to you speaking Spanish and you answer in English, how do you know he understands what you're saying?
00:54:06
Speaker
Exactly. So yeah, that's, it's curious. And, so. will say that i i've seen multiple accounts that say pat was a really good shot too uh so i don't know that he was an average shot i think he was a good shot but but again valid points about single action versus double cocker uh let me let me think uh i don't think and and i could be wrong about the average but you know most guys aren't when you're thinking superhuman with billy the kid yeah
00:54:38
Speaker
you know most guys are going to end up being average compared to what you hear about billy the kid so yeah that's more what i'm saying and and pat had to be at least a decent shot because he started out as a buffalo hunter and i know they were just big dumb animals in the middle of but when you're using a 50 cal rifle on a big dumb animal you had to at least be a little bit proficient with it the one other thing that sketched me before you before you jump in here is the way that supposedly he was killed so supposedly billy was backing away pointing the gun out towards garrett and he shoots him under you know according to the simpatico it hit him just under the the heart i i don't think it quite pierced it but it just hit like just under it or just over it it could have hit it think it was just over it yeah so
00:55:37
Speaker
that would mean billy was completely turned to him
00:55:42
Speaker
well if i'm got pete maxwell yelling this hey it's the kid i'm not going to start backing up like an old you know whatever i'm going to turn with my gun pointed out so i can get off a shot or two and turn and go have you seen old henry Yes, I have.
00:56:06
Speaker
it's like It's like when he's about ready to get in that gunfight and he turns completely sideways. Something like that. that That would be more what I would see. and Old Henry was a good movie. I just hated how the ending played out because it was like you know you had to go all all the way through and just, yeah, I'm not going to spoil it for anybody else who haven't seen it. I don't know why they do that.
00:56:28
Speaker
andt I agree with you. A couple points on the, like, i I think that Garrett just told Alejandro Segura to just pick the coroner's jury. I don't think he like was selective about picking it about who could be on it.
00:56:44
Speaker
If that's the case, I'd like to look further into that. Cause I've never heard that before, but as far as I know, he just called the justice of the peace and was like, put together a jury.
00:56:56
Speaker
And then I'm pretty sure i i was under the impression they let, they just, they took Billy's body to the, either the saloon or like some other place and and they set up a vigil for him and it was completely open to whoever wanted to go view the body and you might know a little bit more about that than i do i just know what i've read and what i've seen that it was like they took the body right over to the carpenter shop right and they like shut down the carpenter shop from there because didn't somebody try to come out and say at one time they had the the table that they laid
00:57:30
Speaker
It was the same guy, Steve Cedarwell. It was Luminal Man. I mean, it's like everything that sketch is is goes back to this guy, I'm telling you. um but ah But yeah, it's... You know, and there are little points like that that, yeah, it'd be cool to look into. And but I guess where I land on it is Pat Garrett didn't really have that much control of the town.
00:57:57
Speaker
to where he could dictate a conspiracy like that. Like, I think if he killed the wrong guy, they would wise up to it and say something like, like, I don't think they had the power to keep that kind of secret or the whole town of Fort Sumner to be the motivation to be in on it.
00:58:13
Speaker
And I think it's a lot overall. I think the circumstances, a lot like post says in his book where he, he flat out says like, look, essentially if it didn't,
00:58:25
Speaker
If I wasn't there, I wouldn't believe it. Like he said, like there had, this is a, just a sign of providence from God that the kid was supposed to die that night because like it, there's no way i ah you can't even make this stuff up basically is what he said. And it's like, it has that feel to it. Like it feels like a genuine incident, but with a lot of sketch by the people who are writing their accounts down to, to avoid something. I don't know what it is they're trying to hide.
00:58:53
Speaker
But I just personally, I do feel Billy was killed that night. But I don't know what it is they're trying to keep under wraps. But they're definitely sketchy about it. And see, I see the conspiracy on the other hand. i don't think it's a conspiracy to help Garrett in any way.
00:59:08
Speaker
i see it more as a conspiracy to help Billy. Because if they can say Billy's dead, what's that immediately do? That immediately gets all heat off of Billy. And Billy can go and do what he needs to do.
00:59:24
Speaker
Now, i've the big argument that a lot of people throw back at me on that is Billy had a lot of chances to get out of there, but he never took them. oh But I think with this the close brush that he had at that point, it gave him enough to say, I'm done.
00:59:43
Speaker
Maybe so, but I would say there's no reason for Garrett to want Billy to live. I mean, he legit tried to kill Billy twice, and... got his buddies instead like he even before the escape from the courthouse he was like oh there's billy no that was tom fallier oh there's billy no was beaudry he's just taking his friends down one by one so i don't see why all of a sudden pat would be like yeah let's let this kid go and and if he shot the wrong man he shot the wrong man who had a gun and a knife and could have easily just said yeah he had a gun and a knife i mean
01:00:19
Speaker
even And then you say, well, maybe he didn't have a gun. Well, they if he didn't have a gun, then they planted it for Billy, so they would have just planted it for the innocent man. It just doesn't... I don't see a need for a conspiracy, I guess, or on Pat's part, the the motive for one. the $500, but I don't think he would ever stake his reputation on the kid keeping his mouth shut either. but But yeah, no. The only thing...
01:00:47
Speaker
the only thing i can think there's tons of stuff you brought up there that i i don't have an answer for for sure like i can't explain half probably 80 of the actions that night i can't make sense of it well you know the only thing that would work and and i was going to ask you about this why such flack is to do the dig up this one dig up this one and doing dna checks now i know that that's going to run a lot of money so it's probably you know not something the coalition can can you know do but why is there so much flack on trying to do that i will say like i don't think it's yeah i don't think it's anything the coalition will ever attempt to do but but uh
01:01:35
Speaker
There's a lot of flack because there's a lot of PR drama involved for sure.
Ethical Challenges in Historical Verification
01:01:40
Speaker
At least that was the flack when Cedar Wall tried to do it back in 2004. But basically, you know, from my perspective, because I don't care about all that, my perspective is you would have to be 100% sure you got the right bodies.
01:01:55
Speaker
And like, that's where you get into trouble. And that was essentially the reason why New Mexico prohibited the exhumations back in 2004, because there was this woman named Deborah Comar who worked for the medical medical examiner's office.
01:02:10
Speaker
And her job was to research the cemetery at Fort Sumner and to determine whether the kid could be ex exhumed confidently.
01:02:23
Speaker
And she basically, her conclusion was, we have no idea where he's buried. She looked at the, like, when they, see, after the kid was killed and after Fort Sumner was sold,
01:02:35
Speaker
that graveyard became just basically a field, like all the markers and stuff. They just, there were no fence lines or anything. So when it came time, when Billy was getting famous again, and there were like four old timers, Charlie four, maybe Jesus Silva, maybe Paco and I, but there were four of these old timers who came to identify where the kid was buried and they all picked a different spot.
01:02:59
Speaker
And so they kind of like, picked the average. They were like, kind of picked the middle of where those spots were. So like, in my opinion, and I'm not speaking for the whole community, but my, in my opinion, I don't think they really know where he's buried.
01:03:13
Speaker
The, where the graves are right now, I think are probably within five feet of the yeah actual location, maybe, but like to to actually invest the money and to dig up a body, you'd have to be pretty dang sure you knew where it was. And I think Deborah Comar ruled that There's just no way to know. And she also said that at a certain date, they did the same at Fort Sumner that they did to Olinger, which is they dug up all the soldiers and moved them to Santa Fe.
01:03:41
Speaker
And she said that she thought they could have moved Billy. I don't think they did, but it is certainly possible. So like, if you dig up the wrong person and run those tests, you're going to get results that just aren't accurate.
01:03:53
Speaker
And then It was the same. Actually, ah ah our colleague, Doss Boot, he writes a lot of articles on our Facebook group. He just did a three-part series on the exhuming of Catherine Antrim and all that fiasco. And it was basically the same situation there.
01:04:09
Speaker
She had been moved from her original location to a new cemetery location in Silver City. And we just can't be sure we'd be digging up the right person. And, If you look at Jesse James, when they dug him up and did the DNA testing, and it is loaded with a conspiracy and and accusations of unprofessionalism and reasons why it's not true. And like digging up Jesse James literally did nothing to settle the conspiracy. right In fact, it furthered it. And I'm afraid that'd be the same. Like it wouldn't convince anybody.
01:04:42
Speaker
I would love, if we if we knew 100% sure like where Billy was buried and where Brushy was buried and all that, I would say dig him up. Let's do it. Because like why not get the DNA? But the problem is, if there's just a sliver of doubt, then that opens up a whole new can of conspiracies and that just the the story goes on.
01:05:03
Speaker
so Now, just just to put your mind at ease, I don't believe Jesse James survived. I don't think J. Bray Dalton was so... but i i still ah ah it would take a lot for me right now and i'm not saying my mind can't change because my mind has changed a hundred different times in just like two days but i i'm still ah the the thought that i i don't think i i think a lot of the conspiracy would be on on pat's end because if he did kill an innocent
01:05:41
Speaker
he's going to get a lot of bad PR on his end of it. Yeah, I can see that for sure. So he'd have to keep it secret. That's the thing, though. You know, there's so so many people argue this stuff so passionately and insult each other. and And, you know, it almost becomes like you're arguing religion or something like that.
01:06:03
Speaker
But... The thing is, like, if it turned out that Billy survived that night, I'd be thrilled. I think that'd be awesome. because I'm not trying to prove preserve any status quo or anything. and And I wish we all could have a little more fun with the disagreements. Like, it's just, I mean, it's history.
01:06:19
Speaker
and And if we don't have certain documentation, we ought not get so bent out of shape on it. For instance, yeah my friend my friend Mel, she thinks that Brady was riding a horse when he was shot in Lincoln.
01:06:33
Speaker
and and most people think he was walking most histories you know say he was walking down the street and so uh she put we posted that we were talking about it on facebook and she said uh i think he was riding a horse and i commented back i was like how feel to be wrong like does that feel weird and because i don't ever feel that way and she was like uh i'm not going to cuss you here on facebook but go check your messages And because she said walking means riding a horse with Brady and because you walk the horse, you know, so so i said, I'll walk over and check and check my phone for that message.
01:07:09
Speaker
And then I put in parentheses, rides horse over the phone, you know, and it was just, you know, roasting each other. and And that's history should be fun. And you should be able to roast each other over your disagreements, because like, whoever's right, they're right about something that happened over 100 years ago, and it's not going to change anything.
01:07:27
Speaker
sort will you know just get the get the scathing email from me later on about how wrong you are on everything and that's right i'm waiting for it but no i completely agree yeah and and brushy bill if it weren't for brushy a lot of times we wouldn't be talking about any of this so and that's yeah and he he is Whether he was Billy or not, whether whatever year he was born, he's become part of the Billy the Kid legend.
01:07:58
Speaker
More power to him.
Excitement for Young Guns 3
01:08:00
Speaker
And, you know, a lot of that would come to light if a certain author of things would at least release the audio tapes that they have made Morrison made of Brashi. Right.
01:08:13
Speaker
James, we have been on this machine for a little over two hours right now. I know we could talk about this for three days straight, but I know you're you're about an hour behind me, so I'm sure you want to hit the hit the bed, and I've got some editing that I'm going to have to do for this episode. So I'm going to leave you with two questions.
01:08:32
Speaker
Yes, sir. One is we just got confirmation that Young Guns 3 is going to be released. It's currently being made. uh emilio estevez even gave us a look into what the story is ah ah potentially going to be about what's your thoughts on on on what young guns three could be he even said that there could be a four five and six for all he knew know and which is which is fantastic the the little kid in me is super pumped if it were anybody else at the helm
01:09:04
Speaker
I would be concerned a given the nature of the story and the potential for it being a crash and burn scenario. Because anytime you do a comeback sequel like this, you know, it could end up looking more like the expendables part seven than anything else. But I trust the vision of John Fusco and that, that guy has seen us through both of the original young guns and he's on the board he's on board for doing this so uh i'm pumped man i'm excited about it and i have to say about that the the storyline completely is different than what i envisioned it was going to be i thought yeah it was going to be that he was going to do the actual brushy bill thing where they went to the governor looking for his pardon and gonna be that but no he's talking about how it's gonna be you know the mexican revolution and all it's like
01:09:59
Speaker
never even in my life would i ever ever thought about that one right well the the governor's meeting in 1950 might be part six yeah yeah who knows so i lied i've got now i've got two questions two more questions uh my next one is let's say within the next 10 years they come up with somebody comes up with a time machine you could go back to that time a what is one thing you would wish you, one small thing. Obviously, there's not a, if you did something major, it would completely mess things up.
01:10:37
Speaker
But what's one small thing you could wish you could change in Billy's life for him? Oh, man.
01:10:47
Speaker
Man, that's a good question. What's one small thing I wish I could change? Pay them journalism classes paid for something. Yeah. that yeah I mean, and if you change anything big, it could change everything.
01:11:03
Speaker
Yeah. so I mean, if you want to change something big, go for it, but it can't be the night that he died because we still have questions marked on whether he died or not. So, you know, you can't do that one. i would i would I would take back some advanced medical treatment and I would treat his mother.
01:11:24
Speaker
You think that would that would that would influence him enough to keep the straight and narrow? Maybe not, but I'd like to see what, what it did. because you know, he would have at least have had that influence.
01:11:38
Speaker
so it's hard to say he might still have been a little brat, you know, but, uh, I think he carried that with him the rest of his life. So,
01:11:49
Speaker
Yeah. And that's a good answer because that's one of the ones that I thought of. The other one was that maybe push Tunstall away from McSween and keep him on on his path instead of getting caught up in the miss McSween stuff.
01:12:04
Speaker
Because if that's the case, then maybe Tunstall doesn't get killed and you know maybe Kid sticks around and rides the straight and narrow under Tunstall.
01:12:16
Speaker
All right. So this one is really important. And this is going to develop whether our relationship here ends on a good note or a bad note. but This has been talked about. We're both Star Wars people.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. Prequels or sequels?
01:12:33
Speaker
Man. So. And there is a right answer, at least in my mind. Yeah. Well, you know, I... I'd probably have to qualify with a bunch of stuff, but if I have to pick between the two, I'd pick prequels.
01:12:47
Speaker
Okay, you're safe. We're good. I mean, I've got a lot of beefs with the sequels. were some good parts, but sometimes I just want to go back to before even the prequels and just live in the original trilogy and Legends universe.
01:13:04
Speaker
Right. Hey, one of these days I'm going to take a picture of it. I have two long bookshelves up over here that have every single one of the Expanded Universe novels on it. It's awesome. I mean, Disney's doing some great things. i ah There's a lot of, I love Rogue One. There are.
01:13:21
Speaker
Enjoyed Andor, you know, so I can't like swear off all of it, but like they've really fucked up a lot too. so My ringtone is a ah metal version of the Mandalorian theme. So, you know, I'm i'm good on that.
01:13:35
Speaker
Grogu is my guy, but yeah, I agree. sequels are the only thing that... I'm reading the first High Republic book right now. so aria I haven't got into any of the Disney novels as of yet because I got kind of... i I was upset for a while because I spent all that money collecting those books for years and then all of a sudden they come along and say, nope, no more.
01:13:59
Speaker
You're done. Yeah.
Star Wars Prequels vs. Sequels
01:14:01
Speaker
And the evening was so good, man. It was. There were a couple of series that were like, eh, those can be done away with. But for the most part, they were all pretty good.
01:14:13
Speaker
But the sequels were the only movies that I've ever cussed out of movie theater. Not the people at the theater, but the screen. I'll tell you what. I saw Force Awakens and...
01:14:25
Speaker
I was okay. It was clearly a new way. had hope. I was like, whatever, this is fine. I'm on board. And then I saw Last Jedi, and when I left Last Jedi, I was walking ah ah out of the theater with my wife.
01:14:36
Speaker
I said, I feel weird. and And we got in the car, and I was like, just something's not right. And we were driving, i was like, it's disappointment. I've never felt disappointed at a Star Wars movie.
01:14:49
Speaker
And like I didn't know what to do with that. like It was just... wow you know and course last skywalker or the rise of skywalker or whatever it was it was just a cleanup job it was i liked it a little bit better than i did the last jedi but there was a lot of issues especially with the whole palpatine skywalker thing because this was the the skywalker saga but somehow a palpatine won the whole damn thing right
01:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, and and it's like i I saw a guy do a video before Episode IX came out. He was reviewing Last Jedi when it came out, and he said they killed the villain like halfway through the arc.
01:15:33
Speaker
And he was like, the only thing they can do right now, they don't have time to introduce a new villain. All they can do is bring back Palpatine. And sure enough, years later when they made Episode IX, it's what they had to do. we we were uh it was either that or somehow they were going to tie in maul because of his his cameo or his little blip scene at the end of solo but james that is a whole nother another episode uh uh when i do the episode for star wars i'm i've got a buddy dan kotnick that i do a lot of my star wars stuff with for some of these episodes we'll have to get you on at the same time as him and we'll just have a star wars round table with it if you ever want to discuss billy more and you can have multiple guests me and josh will come on and talk more with you and
01:16:22
Speaker
Maybe, I don't know how long the health season is, but if if you want to do like a it like a Life of Billy and do a few episodes of just the basics, because i know I know we get into the weeds here because I'm just not used to doing the basics, you know.
01:16:36
Speaker
Well, and and there's a lot. Even though Billy only lived, well, officially only lived to be 21 years old. You know, there's a there's a lot of a lot of history with it. And I was trying to do my best to and to there's a whole bunch of stuff that we jumped through that can be discussed. I think the book, the simpatico that I listened to it on Audible, it was like a 21 hour book.
01:17:01
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, there's a lot to it. But you tell Josh to quit ducking me because I emailed him. Absolutely. I will. absolutely i will But why don't you tell the people where they can find you and what you guys got going on right now and and a little bit about the coalition.
01:17:18
Speaker
Yeah, so just look up Chasing Billy on YouTube and our channel will show up. Please subscribe and and follow us and and tune in. And we have a live chat once a month, the first Sunday of every month around 8 p.m. Eastern.
01:17:35
Speaker
So tune in. We have a great live community where you know we all chat and Have a great time. The Coalition, you can check us out on Facebook. We have a very lively group.
01:17:45
Speaker
Just search Billy the Kid's Historical Coalition. Join the group. And then, of course, our website is btkcoalition.org. And it's not the BTK that you're thinking of. It's Billy the Kid. It's not the other one.
Conclusion & Social Media Shoutouts
01:17:59
Speaker
And that's something I've had to like resign myself to. Because when I first got into Billy, I was like, really? Don't say BTK. But now it's like, whatever. I'll allow it. But, you know, that's the end of the episode, folks.
01:18:12
Speaker
I'm Iowa Joe. You can find me on the Elon machine, even though I don't do anything there anymore. You can find me on Blue Sky, Iowa Joe. We have the podcast on Instagram and all those good things. We do have a Facebook.
01:18:27
Speaker
Unfortunately, I don't keep it as up to date as I probably should. Check out our website, ohanapackers.org, where you can find our articles, our merchandise, and all that good stuff. For James, for me, for Mike, even though he's got a vacation for the next couple weeks.
01:18:41
Speaker
Go Pack Go and a load.