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OPE Season 3 Episode 49 What's up Doc?
0 Playsin 3 hours
Aloha and welcome to another episode of OPE! This week We are joined by Andrew Mertig, A host of Pack-a-Day Podcast and The Draft Fellows to discuss the safety group! we look at the current group, any potential free agents and what draft prospects fit the Packers mold!
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Guest Appearance
00:00:19
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Ohana Packers Edition podcast, the podcast where two dudes talk Green Bay Packers football. I am Iowa Joe, again, without Mike Kawano.
00:00:33
Speaker
He's off dealing with kids again, by but the doctor is in. We do have Dr. Andrew Mertig with us.
00:00:44
Speaker
from Packaday and all his other great ventures. Andrew, but kind of talked about this a little bit beforehand. This is like the first official time we've actually met. we you know we've We've done the group chats with Brian Moffey and all that. And we've also had some talks on on the social media machines, but we've never actually been able to sit down together.
Challenges in Guest Booking and NFL Draft Excitement
00:01:05
Speaker
Last year, we tried to get you on, but we just couldn't get linked up with it. So we finally got you in.
00:01:12
Speaker
How's things going for you? I'm here. Doctor is so formal. But no, it's it's really great. Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of those relationships where like you feel like you know somebody because you've interacted so many times and you're like, I don't think we've met. So this is really cool.
00:01:28
Speaker
Super honored anytime anybody wants to have me on and listen to my innate ramblings about the NFL draft. Yeah, that's this is the time. Well, and this year's been really rough with Mike because like I said, between his kids and all that, they've been getting him sick and everything. We haven't had much going on with it, but usually this is the time of year Mike and I really thrive because we're both really into it. So we try to get as many guests on as we can because this is this is what we love to talk about.
Evaluating Packers' Safety Position: Needs vs. Luxury
00:01:58
Speaker
So this week, we are we are wrapping up, really, our our draft countdown. <unk> We're getting into the the positions where it's not really a need. it's more of ah ah It's more of a oh what's the word for a luxury.
00:02:14
Speaker
A luxury at this point if the Packers take one. it would be and I could understand where they could get it, but you know i could also completely understand if they bypass it. We are on the safety group this week.
00:02:27
Speaker
No real news when it comes to like free agency or anything when it comes to the safeties, but they'd made their big splash here with the Xavier McKinney move and then drafting the three safeties last year and Javon Bullard, Evan Williams, and Catan Oladapo.
00:02:45
Speaker
So really, Andrew, what are you thinking about this year's safety group? do Is there room for improvement or do you think we're pretty much set with what we have going on?
00:02:57
Speaker
I think you could look at it either way. On one hand, you have Xavier McKinney, and you're just going to rely on him being a superstar. And on the other hand, you have an ascending player in Evan Williams that you think can take that next leap.
00:03:12
Speaker
And so I think the the the optimist in me is saying this position group is totally taken care of. You're going to get some internal development. whether that be from, you Williams continuing to grow as a starter in the NFL, maybe Javon Bullard having a little bit of a bounce back. I thought his rookie year was kind of rough.
00:03:31
Speaker
And so, yeah you know, like, like to see some growth there and, you know, whether that's in a more dedicated slot role, whether it's in a very versatile safety corner hybrid kind of thing. I'm not sure, but but I think there's, there's at least room to be optimistic. We know what we thought of him coming out of the draft and,
00:03:48
Speaker
At least the Packers had had really high hopes for what he could be right away. And then Oladapo, who we didn't really see a lot of on the field and defense, and potentially you know continuing to progress, as maybe he's a little bit of that linebacker hybrid.
00:04:02
Speaker
But I think... like that's kind of good enough. you you, you have your four, maybe you have your five. I know we were talking a little bit about Zane Anderson and you know, he, he looks like he'll probably be back. So maybe they have their five and they're just going to say, we're, we're good to go with that.
00:04:23
Speaker
Omar Brown is another safety that's on the roster. I'm truthfully, i don't know a ton about him. I remember studying him out of Nebraska, but I'd have to look back at my notes to see what I So that's not a great sign. But I think you could you could go in and you would say, okay, they're probably going to bring in like two or three UDFAs, they're not going to waste a draft pick on the safety position and they'll just be fine.
Free Agency and Draft Prospects for Safety
00:04:47
Speaker
On the other hand, you know, maybe you safety you really love falls into your lap and you say, well, we we could we could improve there. and And maybe you could get more of a true deep safety to give you a little bit of insurance if anything happens to McKinney or, again, if Evan Williams misses some time for the second year in a row.
00:05:09
Speaker
And i I'm just kind of looking at his profile on on the Packers roster. Omar Brown seems like he's a little bit older for a rookie. According to this, he's at 24.
00:05:22
Speaker
So, you know, there's there's possibility there's something out of him. But i to me, I see him more as maybe the special teams practice squad type guy.
00:05:33
Speaker
i Anybody who's listened to our show for the past year would – knows what we what mike and i both feel about the zane anderson thing where he's a yeah he was a competent special teamer he did make a couple plays when he was forced to go in there but we preferred to see anthony johnson jr in there more than that but that's not what the packers felt so maybe omar brown could be that guy that that supplants Zane Anderson and what they're looking for.
00:06:03
Speaker
And really Zane Anderson's an exclusive rights free agent. And that's probably the only reason the Packers will be bringing him back at this point is it's really not going to cost them anything to keep them on the team.
00:06:15
Speaker
I do agree with you that it, it's, it's not much of a need for safety. Like I said, her, her, a few minutes ago. It's more of the luxury, but we also do know the Packers like to look ahead on things and you know Who knows? Maybe they grab another guy in the late rounds and say, all right, we're going to stash this guy. We're going use him sparingly, but we're going to really push him to be that guy that's going to be next to McKinney or maybe take over for McKinney in a couple of years or whatever.
00:06:47
Speaker
And i know there's a lot of speculation with what's going to happen with Bullard because... you know The guy that we know well, Brian Moffey, keeps saying that he's nothing but a a slot guy, and you know that's probably where they're going to play him. But then the Packers just just went out and spent a bunch of money on Nate Hobbs.
00:07:08
Speaker
you know They profile him more as a slot corner, but they have said that he's most likely going to play boundary. I just wrote an article this last week on the whole Jair thing.
00:07:24
Speaker
So, you know, go check that out on the website. But i don't see them getting rid of Jair anytime soon this year. I mean, if they're going to move on with him, I do see it next year.
00:07:36
Speaker
But so you have two of your guys on the on the outside. You've got to figure out what you're going to do with Keyshawn. Is he going to be a boundary guy? Is he going to be a slot guy?
00:07:48
Speaker
Then you've got Bullard to throw in there. You've got Oladapo. Is he going to be a slot guy? is he gonna be you know Is he going to be a deep guy? Is he going to be a linebacker type like you just said?
00:08:00
Speaker
And if i if memory serves, you know they did have to start playing Oladapo there towards the end of the season. And he really wasn't playing bad from what I remember.
00:08:11
Speaker
I mean, there was nothing really that flashed out on him, but Sometimes it's like the offensive line when, when, you know, your name's not being called, it's it's kind of a good thing.
00:08:22
Speaker
But when you're hearing your name more often than not, it's it's not really a good thing. But, you know, this group is young. McKinney is what, going to be 26 this year?
00:08:36
Speaker
I right on that? I believe he's 25 right now. Yeah, so you know he's still young. This whole core group is young. Bullard, 22. Oladapo's 24. Evan Williams is 23.
00:08:50
Speaker
So there's going to be growth. There's going to be some growing pains to go with it. The big question is is, do you upset the apple cart by bringing in another draft pick?
00:09:04
Speaker
not saying that they're not going to be welcoming to them, but then you've got Oladapo and those guys thinking, okay, you know, the ones lower in the depth chart thinking, okay, well, am I safe? Am I, you know, is my job on the line here or you know, what's happening? So, and and competition is a good thing, but you don't ever want to really ruin a relationship in a group, in the group, because then it kind of tanks the group, so to say, but,
00:09:35
Speaker
So this is probably going to be a super quick episode just because like, you know, like we keep saying, it's not a huge need. It's not. And, and really this, uh, Andrew and I were kind of talking about this before recording a lot of the guys that, uh,
00:09:52
Speaker
would be ones to watch for went back to school. I mean, there's some guys there that are, you know, would be excellent picks in years that the Packers needed a safety, but it's not the year to be a team who needs
Analyzing Top Safety Prospects
00:10:06
Speaker
a safety.
00:10:08
Speaker
So Andrew, would that say it without with with that said, if I can talk here, is there anybody in the free agent realm that you would even consider bringing into the team right now?
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, unless there was a Zane Anderson type that that they wanted to bring in, your fifth safety, really, you're going to be relying on them to to play special teams. And if they have to see the field on defensive snaps, you're probably in trouble anyways.
00:10:37
Speaker
So there's not necessarily anybody that I see out there. I mean, I'm just scrolling through some free agency lists. And like, if you're looking for a starting safety, like, yeah, a player like Justin Simmons is out there.
00:10:49
Speaker
Packers aren't going to touch that because obviously they, they want Evan Williams to win that second safety role. Right. And they feel good about their depth. Justin Simmons, not going to come someplace that he's not going to be a full-time player. So no, I mean, I don't think that there is a lot that's very tempting out there in the free agency world right now.
00:11:07
Speaker
No. And, and, you know, a lot of them, you got to look at age wise, you know, there's not really a yeah a lot of young guys out in the free agent world right now that are,
00:11:19
Speaker
at a decent age, a lot of them are getting closer towards the end of their careers more than, you know, being in their peak, you know, like a couple years ago, Tyron Matthew would have been amazing to pick up, but now he's 33. He's, you know, he did re resign with the, with the saints, but just using him as an example, you know, 33, how much more does he he really have left in him?
00:11:44
Speaker
You know, you hope for at least a year or two, oh what's the other Harrison Smith would have been a solid veteran pickup you know four or five years ago, but now he's 36. I think he finally did say that this will be his last year in the league.
00:12:01
Speaker
I could be wrong on that, but I was pretty sure that he kind of confirmed that he this was going to be his last year. But yeah, unless you're looking for somebody specifically to replace Zane Anderson or Catan Oladapo or whatever then yeah i really don't think anybody in the free agency world is is worth it but had they not splash big last year with mckinney then i could see it with like a justin reed or or a simmons or a matthew or or somebody like that but obviously that didn't happen
00:12:40
Speaker
I guess we can just jump right into the draft stuff. Mike usually breaks this down by days. You know, who would you take on day one? Who would you? Yeah. But as I always use as my disclaimer,
00:12:53
Speaker
I always struggle putting round grades on players. So let's just say who is your favorite safety out of this group of draft picks this year? yeah so what is One of the things, one one of the reasons why I was kind of excited to talk about safeties this year is Last year, I felt like I learned some some difficult lessons. There were there were some players that I really, really liked a lot. Tyler Newben on was my like number one safety and film grade.
00:13:22
Speaker
And then he got a like sub for RAS score. And I have a formula where I take a player's film grade and then I calculated by there's a there's a factor that kind of punishes you for being an older prospect.
00:13:38
Speaker
And then takes a look at your, your testing and a new bin slid from what probably would have been like a borderline. First, second round grade all the way, you know, deep into the third. And then he has a great rookie season.
00:13:51
Speaker
And then I see something very similar with Cameron Kitchens, who had a really nice rookie year for the Rams. And that really kind of taught me a lesson that when you're taking a look at safeties, you need to like grade instincts above athleticism.
00:14:07
Speaker
And there's a certain threshold of athleticism that safeties have to have. But especially when you start to talk about players that are going to go into schemes where they're going be asked to do different things. Like you don't want somebody who has a really slow 40 time playing single high, but they can still be a really, really good NFL safety if they're in the right scheme. And so I think that's the tricky thing about looking at the safety position, but also the thing that I think is really fun.
00:14:34
Speaker
And when i I look at the top of the draft, there's really two players. And so there's there's Malachi Starks from Georgia. who is getting all of the buzz and heat all fall and, uh, was supposed to be the big time guy. Some people were even talking about his top 10 prospect. And a lot of that is cooled a bit.
00:14:52
Speaker
And I still think he's safely a first round player, but he's more of your like, do everything. He's not an insane athlete. He's not particularly long. I believe his RAS score is going to be relatively poor because his agility testing was not good.
00:15:07
Speaker
But instincts. This is a guy who has been on the back end of that Georgia defense for a while. He's experienced. He's a fantastic player. I think he does everything really, really well.
00:15:20
Speaker
He might not have a great trait. But I don't think that this is a position where you have to have a great trait. Like, I think he can come down and play the run. I think he can be a really fantastic player with instincts in a two high look or a cover four.
00:15:35
Speaker
i don't know that you necessarily want him in single high, although he has straight line speed. So maybe, maybe you could do a little bit of that. But I think when you're looking at the teams who are going to look for a really versatile safety, a do everything Malachi Starks is the guy. i think he's a little bit more plug and play than, than some of the other players.
00:15:54
Speaker
And then there's the other guy who's sort of his polar opposite. And that's Nick Imanwari out of South Carolina. And like, this is guy, he has perfect 10 relative athletic score. This is a size speed freak.
00:16:07
Speaker
He looks really good on the field. But like there's some defensive coordinator around the NFL that is going to pound the table for this guy. That's going to be like this is my perfect fit.
00:16:18
Speaker
If there is like... a A- minus version of Kyle Hamilton, maybe B-plus version. like This is the guy. He's huge. He's super fast.
00:16:29
Speaker
He flashes on tape. I don't know that he has like the super safe floor that a player like Malachi Starks is going to have, but his ceiling is higher. and so Who goes first? I don't know. i think it's going to just depend on what team has like that defensive coordinator that's like, you need to go get me this guy. I'm going to teach him how to be the next great thing in the NFL.
00:16:52
Speaker
But yeah, Starks and Emanwari get me pretty excited at the top of this draft. Yeah, Emanwari, I've watched because I always tell people that when I watch guys for to do our show and that I tend to stay away from the top of the round guys or the top guys, because it's like everybody in the world talks about them.
00:17:14
Speaker
You know, everybody who has a podcast and a microphone will talk about them. So I want to talk about guys that aren't probably going to get talked about, but i was like, okay, we're going to be talking safety. Let's just go ahead and take a look at it. Even our way, I'm in worry and, you know, see what it is. And, you know,
00:17:33
Speaker
You're right. you know He's got all the athletic traits to him, perfect 10 on it. And I do agree that you you can't always go off just athletic traits.
00:17:47
Speaker
they And I tell people, I honestly... only look at athletic, at like the combine and stuff like that when I have a question after watching the film on somebody.
00:18:01
Speaker
So if I so watch a guy and, you know, he's struggling to chase somebody down or he's struggling to cross over, okay, let's go see what he ran. You know, is he showing that type of speed when he runs in a straight line and it's time or if he does like that?
00:18:17
Speaker
And really when you look at that with with this kid, Most of it, you know, tracks. The only thing that I said that it looked like in his back pedal, he was a little stiff.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, that that was about the only knock I had on him when watching him. Otherwise, he he seemed to do everything you wanted to ask for. He is going to be super... i I want to say he's going to be super raw.
00:18:46
Speaker
So whether or not somebody's going, like you said, going to want to take a chance and taking him first and saying, all right, we can we can teach him. And, you know, you know that's going to be another story. but But...
00:19:00
Speaker
I do, in my notebook, I have he's probably going to be the first safety off the board just because people are going to look at the size. You know, he's, what, 6'3", 222 or something like that. So this is basically a little bit lighter weight linebacker you've got playing in the safety position.
00:19:18
Speaker
So, you know, theres people are going to see that and say you can't teach size. Would they have him at the combine? It was...
00:19:30
Speaker
6'3", 220. And, you know, that's that's amazing for his safety. And this would be a guy that you would hope you could pack, like, maybe 20 more pounds on him and just throw him in the middle of the linebacking core and say, here, have at him.
00:19:48
Speaker
But, yeah, his testing scores were off the charts. The only thing he didn't do... And it makes you wonder, and this is why I said, put in my notes that his back pedal is a little stiff.
00:20:01
Speaker
He didn't do the shuttle or the three cone. And it makes you wonder if his if the people are around him are like, don't do it.
00:20:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think you you see this with a lot of the long corners to like he's just a little high hips. And yeah, that's natural. So I think you have to be selective. How are how are you going to use him? and And that's why like a player like Kyle Hamilton was so special to me, because he had a lot of hip fluidity for a guy his size.
00:20:29
Speaker
And in the area is just he's a stiffer player. So, all right, we got that one out of the way. I knew we were going to have to bring up those two guys at some point. So let's let's take a deep dive.
00:20:42
Speaker
Give me somebody that you know nobody's talking about, but you think could really be a home run hit for a team if they were to pick him up. So we talking like a day three player or and whatever it just, you know,
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I think, I think there's a pretty safe middle class, uh, this year, which is interesting because last year there just weren't right. Like safeties that were even being considered in the first round.
00:21:08
Speaker
Right. Really even like the top half of the second. So I think, you know, this year there's probably two players that go like round one, early round two. Then I think you have kind of this middle class and then of the players that maybe aren't getting the buzz.
00:21:23
Speaker
And this is hard for me to say, because I try really hard not to be a Wisconsin Homer all the time, but I think Hunter Wohler is one of those players. And and I think there's something special.
00:21:36
Speaker
when there's a guy who flashes on tape for a power five school. And so anytime I see, see those players that have been around for seemingly, you know, four or five years and they just keep making splash plays, I say, okay, I think there's probably a role for this guy in the NFL.
00:21:54
Speaker
And is he just a special teamer? You know, maybe, maybe if the athleticism isn't as good, maybe if it's adequate for college, but maybe not in the pros, maybe maybe you would think that.
00:22:05
Speaker
However, Wohler tested his relative at list score is 9.25. And I didn't look in depth to see everything he tested, but I know he, he tested pretty well.
00:22:14
Speaker
He's just over 22 years old. So I think there's some appealing stuff there. His instincts are off the charts. He's a super solid tackler. I like the angles he takes.
00:22:25
Speaker
I think he could be one of those players that goes on day three, And you're looking, you know, five, six, seven, eight years down the road. And you say, wow, that turned into a really quality starting safety in the NFL.
00:22:40
Speaker
And the player I always go back to, and I hate to do this because there's a lot of reasons why people would make this comparison and they're very lazy, but I will say somebody who, who really stood out in college as a player and his athleticism was wildly underrated was Jim Leonard at Wisconsin.
00:23:00
Speaker
And Wohler has that kind of like, He's just always in the right place at the right time. His athleticism doesn't necessarily say this is a great player, but then you see him run off the field and you're like, wow, this is an elite level athlete.
00:23:17
Speaker
So that's somebody that I would be clamoring for if my team had a need at safety. And somehow if you fell into like middle deep day three, I would absolutely love his fit on the Packers, but I don't think
Middle-Round Safety Picks
00:23:29
Speaker
that's going to happen. I think he probably sneaks into, you know,
00:23:32
Speaker
sort Well, he's got one thing going against him that the Packers won't you know do, and that's take a Wisconsin guy. For sure. but we all you know We all wanted to talk about Jared Aberdeiros, and that one didn't pan out.
00:23:46
Speaker
so Oh, don't get me started on that asshole. i I have a seething dislike for him. We had a bad interaction together, and I... yeah But i I didn't watch Waller because I knew we were going to have you on. And we always try to let people who have like Homer tendencies on on their schools speak out. So, you know, Mike would be Michigan.
00:24:12
Speaker
You know, I'm the Iowa fans. I would be talking, you know, Iowa guys. So I was going to let you talk on him. So I really didn't watch a lot of them. I'm looking at his scorecard for his RAS score. he's got He doesn't really have any reds on him. The only thing that is hurting him is he's orange and all his speed stuff, which it's still good, but it it's you know not like amazing.
00:24:36
Speaker
So according to this, he ran an official 457 for the 40. Speed's not great, but there. 266 for his 20 and 1.6 for his 10.
00:24:43
Speaker
great but it's there two six six first twenty and and a one point six first ten And then he ran a 425 shuttle, but he had a great three cone at a 672. So, you know, he's not horrible in it. It just, you know, this is why I never use the combine as a judge on anything because not everybody can go into those things and test great because they're specifically created to,
00:25:13
Speaker
just be done without pads and not in game fashion and stuff like that. So if he can take that and play better than it on the field, then they're great.
00:25:25
Speaker
But, you know, being a Hawkeye, I can't, put my stamp of approval on a Badgers. Well, well if we if we if if I can pick a second player, somebody I really liked that I think you know could maybe be in the Packers' striking range if they were going to consider drafting a safety at all is Craig Woodson out of Cal.
00:25:46
Speaker
I thought he was really impressive on tape as well. And then he also backed that up with a pretty good testing session. I will say working against him is 24 years old. So not a typical Packers pick, but...
00:26:02
Speaker
There's a theory and I'm stealing this directly from Kyle fellows, but there's, there's this sort of theory we have developed that the Packers, they, they love, obviously they love athletes. They love youth at the front of the draft.
00:26:16
Speaker
at the end of the draft, they love grabbing bargains, players who have perceived to have slid for some reason. You know, think Caleb King, for instance. Now, in the middle rounds, there's this theory that they're letting the regional scouts bang the table for players because we keep seeing these like weird picks.
00:26:36
Speaker
Tyrone Harper, perfect example. Like, Where did that come from? and And every year there are a handful of picks in the middle rounds that are like that. And so I wonder, you know, maybe if they're, you know, I don't remember, Cal's in the ACC now, maybe? i don't know.
00:26:56
Speaker
Something like that, I don't know. Whatever used to be the Pac-10, Pac-12, whoever their their West Coast scout is, I mean, I could see them really falling in love with a guy like Craig Woodson. You know, it's built in. You could just give them...
00:27:10
Speaker
Charles old Jersey number and people can't do that. Nate Hobbs has it. Oh, well, okay. Well, yeah. Nate Hobbs got the 21 Jersey numbers, but you know, you can't go wrong with having a Woodson on the team. You know that, that worked out for us in the past. So,
00:27:27
Speaker
oh you know, oh that would, that makes sense because you do get a lot of those picks that just seem like, well, what, what are we doing here? And it just wouldn't make sense that there, and who wasn't the Senate? I can't remember who said it, but when the Packers signed rich Bisaccia to be their special teams coordinator, they said that what they would do in the,
00:27:54
Speaker
oh if they wanted to really rebuild rebuild the special teams, what they did in their front offices was during the draft, we would set aside a certain pick for that coach.
00:28:07
Speaker
And we say, okay, who is it you want with that pick? you know that And they said, if they really want to change this in Green Bay – They would do the same thing with Basaccia.
00:28:19
Speaker
Say, all right, Rich, who do you want with this pick? And, you know, some of the guys that they've selected, you wonder if that was a Basaccia type thing. You know, like maybe Oladapo was Rich saying, yeah, I really like that guy.
00:28:32
Speaker
i think he's going to help you on your end, but I think he's really going to help. but You know, he could be that special teamer. And we also saw Bisaccia bring in a few guys free agent wise that, you know, when he first came in, like Levitt and Nixon, of course.
00:28:50
Speaker
So it would make sense that they would say, all right, who wants what in these couple of rounds? You know, is there really a guy that pops off on the tape that he fell this far and you can't believe he fell this far, you know,
00:29:07
Speaker
tell us so that would 100 make sense uh there was a guy that i kind of watched that could be one of those late rounders that uh max and hook out of toledo and he seemed like one of those late rounders that he always seemed to be around the ball And I wrote it down as good ball awareness. So when I say good ball awareness, that means he always seems to be able to track where the ball's going, even before the play like really develops.
00:29:41
Speaker
And, you know, he was a really good tackler. His speed was okay. I did say his change of direction was a little stiff. so you know, the hips were a little stiff when he was trying to flip, but coming from a small school,
00:29:55
Speaker
Packers you know tend to like to take a small school guy and see what they could get out of him. He's probably going to have to make his bones as a special teamer and work his butt off in practice and and training camp and stuff like that to get a spot.
00:30:13
Speaker
But I think he'd be a guy that would be able to work really well in a system like this. So, yeah, that that would be a guy that I could see that could be like one of those that the regional scout spent a little time in Toledo and said, yeah, yeah, that that guy might might be a solid pickup for it For sure.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah. So small school guys. Yeah, well and you know the thing that sucks about the small schools is they don't get the notoriety. They still have amazing players there. They just they don't get the notoriety because they're not an Alabama or they're not a Florida or they're not something like this. so they you know Alabama's busy filling their coffers with five-star recruits.
00:31:02
Speaker
Some guys fall through the crack. So... I haven't been able to ask this because cause Mike usually runs the show for it, but the last couple times when it's been just me running things, I always ask this one.
00:31:18
Speaker
What is one guy that you would not take for anything? In this year's class? In this year's class, it' for the safety group. if If the Packers were to call and say, hey, we're thinking about this one and this one,
00:31:35
Speaker
And you have this strong, please do not take this guy. Please do not take this guy. Who is that for you in this draft class? Yeah, it's interesting. i In the safety group, I don't know that there's a specific player that I would be like, do not take them. There's there's a couple that I've watched that I would be really shocked if the Packers were considering them.
00:31:57
Speaker
uh like taishim johnson from oregon i don't know what is going on in oregon they're the anti-penn state everybody tests terribly at the combine from oregon oh don't give me that iowa did the same thing so like they don't teach their players how to run without pads on or something he he struggled i didn't love his tape either uh like a dante trader jr out of maryland i didn't love what i saw there he didn't test well he's a little bit older like i those those kind of players like just stay away from them if i guess this is what i would say if you're thinking about drafting a safety and their ceiling is a special teams guy you can already do that with zany anderson don't bother yeah so that would be my argument
00:32:45
Speaker
I would advocate for the Packers to draft a safety if they feel like they can play safety. And I do think that that is actually problematic. I think the Packers have started to, you talked about Zane Anderson quite a bit, like the Packers have started to acquire players.
00:33:02
Speaker
that fill special teams roles and maybe don't do everything else. And to your point of like, some teams may allow the special teams coordinator draft at a position.
00:33:13
Speaker
A lot of teams allow their special teams coordinator to make a final roster decision. And so they say, obviously of kicker and punter, but you get one other roster position. So who's your specialist that that you're going to keep? And well, long snapper, of course. So Maybe that's four players.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah. But like somebody that's going to be your special teams ace. And a lot of teams have a lot of success with that. It seems like the Packers almost have three of those dedicated players. Like there's somebody at linebacker, somebody at safety, may maybe be another position.
00:33:41
Speaker
And it's like that's too much. You're going to eat into those roster spots as the year goes on. And through attrition, somebody like Zane Anderson is going to have to play defense. And if Zane Anderson is a better special teams player than he is a defender and he's suddenly having to play true safety, i don't think that that's necessarily a good decision for your roster. You should have somebody that can play safety and then teach them to play special teams.
00:34:08
Speaker
And so if that is the idea, i don't think that's a good way to go. Or you could draft a player from one of the college schools that makes their starting defensive players play special teams so they come in with that experience. You don't necessarily need to like draft somebody just to play special teams.
00:34:27
Speaker
Where were you when Mike and I were having this discussion last year? Gone, probably. Yeah. Yeah, because we had that same argument for the Zane Anderson, Anthony Johnson Jr. deal when it came to the final cuts was, do you want a guy that can just purely play special teams but is going to struggle to play...
Special Teams vs. Defensive Starters
00:34:51
Speaker
you know, live action games, or do you want a guy that can give you solid play on the field on defense and maybe not so well on special teams?
00:35:04
Speaker
Because in my mind, and I know I'm not anything special. I, you know, I'm not a coach. I'm not scout. I'm not anything like that. But in my mind, it's a little bit easier to teach somebody to play special teams than it is to teach somebody to play safety or linebacker or something like that.
00:35:21
Speaker
And specifically at safety and linebacker, those skills should be transferable. So you're teaching a guy to stay in his lane or you're teaching the technique of how to take on blocks. And especially given the kickoff rules the way they are now.
00:35:34
Speaker
you, you want players that can play defense and, uh, it's, it's less a specialty role. So now you're just talking about punt coverage and, you know, potentially maybe being on some like block teams or return teams or something. And it's like, that's why rich Passaccia is getting paid the big bucks to teach these players how to do those things.
00:35:56
Speaker
And if you have better transferable skills, the skills should transfer better.
00:36:01
Speaker
I 100% agree. And like I said, this is the whole discussion Mike and I had all of last year after the final cuts because we we were completely – and the same kind of was being said between us with the Eric Wilson over Christian Welch type deal was that it seemed like Christian was going to be able to give you everything that you wanted, including the play on defense,
00:36:24
Speaker
Whereas Eric Wilson, while could play on the defense, was limited in what he could do on the defense. So, you know, and it's understandable, you know, they're going to do what they want to do. But after seeing what's been going on with,
00:36:40
Speaker
special teams and the depth of certain positions, it makes you wonder if they're going to have to have a philosophy change or maybe even possibly coaching change.
00:36:52
Speaker
And that's nothing against Rich Passaccia. He's, you know, he's a solid guy. You know, he's got a good work ethic and all that. And I'm sure he makes his guys work hard, but there's something there that is an issue, but that's a whole discussion for a whole nother episode.
00:37:08
Speaker
We are here talking about the safety group for the 2025 NFL draft. I keep forgetting what year draft this is. So what other guys have you watched that you you think are some pretty solid guys that even if it's not a Packer draft pick could be something special in the league, maybe even year one?
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah, like like I said, I think there's a little bit of a middle class of of this safety group, and I think any one of these players could potentially be impactful right away. There's Kevin Winston Jr. out of Penn State, Billy Bowman Jr. out of Oklahoma. A lot of juniors, I know.
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. I was just looking down the list like junior, junior, junior. Uh, there's Xavier Watts out of Notre Dame. i think he is, is a pretty fun player on tape as well. So I think those are the guys that might sneak in into day two, maybe not, but like, I think those all could legitimately turn into starters year one, if they're drafted to the right scheme, there's some players I like maybe a little bit later in the draft, a lot of big 10 safeties, another Penn state guy, Jalen Reed, which would be fun. I love that guy.
00:38:19
Speaker
Jalen Reed, Jaden Reed, like, I don't know what they're going to have to do on their jerseys, but that would be confusing. I liked Lathan Ransom from Ohio State way more than I thought I would.
00:38:32
Speaker
i think he's cool. And then, of course, there's the Iowa player, Sebastian Castro. He's a little older, but a really good player on tape.
00:38:42
Speaker
On tape he is, and and like I said earlier, when you were talking about the Oregon guys really crashing when it came to the Combine, all the Iowa guys seemed to really tank when it came to the Combine, and Sebastian was one of them. and I think he fell into the same trap a lot of Iowa guys fall into.
00:39:06
Speaker
They have a really, really good junior year. to the point where people are telling him, you need to come out of college. you You need to go into the pros. You need to do this.
00:39:18
Speaker
Oh, no, I want to go back. I want to go back. And then he kind of fell off. And now we're seeing the possibility that, you know, he, I don't think you can compare him to nubbin from last year, but maybe that type of fall from, okay, well, maybe last year he would have been a, a third or fourth round pick. Now we're maybe,
00:39:39
Speaker
maybe going to be a fifth or sixth round pick just because he did play well on tape but it doesn't look like that athletic profile is out there the other thing that i really hate about what iowa does with their pro days is they don't allow the media in there. So we have no idea what these guys do except for what the players tell the media that they did in there.
00:40:01
Speaker
So we have no ideas how no idea how well they clean things up when it comes to that stuff. So, you know, because some guys just can't test – at, you know, well at the combine because they're not in their element.
00:40:15
Speaker
So put them in the place where they're, where they've been for the last three, four years and see what they can do. And a lot of times guys will do better at the pro day than they did at, at the combine.
00:40:27
Speaker
you know Jay Higgins, Yaya Black, quinch well no Quinn went back. sorry i messed that up Castro, there was a couple of offensive linemen. They all really sucked at the combine. but the The thing that we've been hearing is that you know they kind of stepped it up.
00:40:46
Speaker
they did a little bit better at their pro days and stuff like that. So Castro, I love the kid. i did. Like i said, I do think that they fall into that trap because Micah had it happen to him.
00:40:59
Speaker
uh, Jackson kind of had it happen to him. Oh, what was the other, uh, defensive back? Uh,
00:41:11
Speaker
God, it wasn't Cooper because Cooper actually went out on top and, you know, a hit where he was supposed to hit. But that kind of that kid's super athletic anyway. But the Iowa guys just always seem to fall into that.
00:41:26
Speaker
And it makes me worried about next year's class because you're going to have Schulte and Wampa both come out at the safety group. And Wampa was a five-star recruit going in – of his freshman year so you would hope that he has the athletic traits but you know who knows when the combine comes rolling around but that's next year so yeah Sebastian Castro is going to be a solid player I just think it's going he's to have to do a Micah Hyde type and I I'm not using that as a comparison because they are two completely different players
00:41:59
Speaker
but he's going to have to do a Micah Hyde type build where he's going to make his bones on special teams and get put in there and you know work his way into a position to earn a spot on the defense.
00:42:11
Speaker
And to to what you said, Iowa does make a lot of these guys play special teams for the school. So they already know what they're doing there. It's just trying to get them honed into their position so while i i always tell people the homer and me would love an all iowa draft you know it's not going to be possible but you know he does have the ability he is a bit of a ball hawk on the team he is doing the right thing but by testing out as a safety because I don't think he would have been able to play corner in the league.
00:42:46
Speaker
Maybe slot, but definitely not a boundary guy. So, you know, he'd be great. i You mentioned Jalen Reed.
00:42:57
Speaker
I love that kid. He's super athletic per his RAS score and all that. Had good ball awareness. He played all over the place. He played in the slot. He played deep. You know, as he played as needed.
00:43:08
Speaker
i said he had a good football IQ because he always seemed to be able to put his people into the right positions to make the play. So, you know, before the snap, you'd see him like waving a guy over and, you know, or slapping the defensive lineman on the ass and saying, all right, you got to move over or whatever.
00:43:27
Speaker
And it always tended up working to work out for them. So, you know, I thought that was really good. He's a willing tackler, but I thought he needed to work on his form a little bit better, which is kind of typical for a defensive back. They're not always the most sure tacklers in the world, but at least they like to try.
00:43:47
Speaker
what's my last one? oh it tested really well. But, you know, again, if the Packers hadn't like super dipped into the safety room last year, he he would be a guy that I'd say this, this is a guy that we need on the team. he He's going to be your playmaker.
00:44:05
Speaker
One guy I want to bring up because you did bring up starts from Georgia. It seems like Georgia has three guys coming out this year. And I watched one of them, and I was not overly impressed, even though he's got a really high, a solid RAS score, and that's Dan Jackson.
00:44:27
Speaker
He's not a tackler in my eye. He was more of a hitter. So what I mean by that is he was more apt to throw his shoulder into it than actually like do a wrap-up tackle.
00:44:37
Speaker
So it's like he's trying to be a thumper but doesn't have the strength to be a thumper. his back pedal was a little rough. He played mainly deep. It looked like he had long speed, but it didn't look like he had so much in the quickness.
00:44:54
Speaker
And if you go look at his RAS score, his testing when it came to the three cone and the shuttle was really poor. So that's where I can say, okay, his RAS, his testing here was poor.
00:45:09
Speaker
It doesn't show up on tape that he's any better with it. So, yeah, you're going to be limited with this guy when it comes to certain areas. So he he really is one that if the Packers were to take him, it was like, okay, then they must be seeing something completely different than I see.
00:45:28
Speaker
So they've got a plan for him. But really, I was not keen on on this kid. Yeah, that's that's the kind of player that they brought him in as a UDFA. OK, cool.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah, I only know about him from watching the other Georgia defenders, so I didn't actually do an official grade. And so, you know, I don't know. I don't want to speak too much to that, but I do think and, and you know, i mentioned Latham Ransom.
00:45:54
Speaker
One of the things that that I am very cognizant and of is when a player is like the seventh or eighth or ninth best player on their defense, like like how much can you really tell from that? Because you're just like, especially, you know, a safety at Georgia. Well, Starks is going to occupy like 65% of the field. Yeah. So, so what are you doing?
00:46:16
Speaker
And like, do you shine in that like little role you have? And if you don't, like, What's what's going on there? And I don't think like there was ever a time where I really felt like he he stuck out.
00:46:28
Speaker
And so, yeah, I mean, you know, that's that's one of those players like, hey, maybe he just needs the opportunity. and And it could be you sign him as UDFA and he comes in and he shows in in rookie camp that he's got a little something. And then, you know, you give him the opportunity to preseason. But that is not the kind of player that I would advocate spending a draft pick on.
00:46:51
Speaker
So I better do this before Kiwano would call me and say that I i didn't represent for him or anything. I didn't watch him because I expected Kiwano to be on the show and actually be able to talk his homerism for him. So I'm hoping you watched anything on him. But what about the Michigan guys that are coming out for the safety department?
00:47:12
Speaker
Okay. I didn't watch. i don't have any grades on the Michigan guys. Yeah. I also have a co-host who's a big Michigan fan. And so I typically rely on him to do those things.
00:47:24
Speaker
But yeah, I, they, they didn't make the cut. And, and I, I think I told this to you pre-show like, Because we started earlier than I have ever started my life in grading, I had to develop my list really early. And as a result, there's some players that I feel like I missed along the way.
00:47:42
Speaker
And I just had to come to grips with that this year. In previous years, i would like add them late and say, okay, well, this is a player who's probably going to get drafted. Like, let's try to get to 250 this year.
00:47:54
Speaker
There was no way that was happening. So unfortunately, the Michigan guys didn't make my initial cut. Well, there you go, Mike. I tried, but we just couldn't come up with it. so Now, Will Johnson, we could we could spend an hour talking about Will Johnson if we wanted to talk about Michigan defensive backs, but the safety is no.
00:48:13
Speaker
I don't know anything. One of them is Quentin Johnson. I did watch a little bit on him. i don't think he's – there's no RAS score on him because he wasn't a combine guy. – so and I don't know, I watched a little bit, but I don't know much about him.
00:48:30
Speaker
And then you've got Macari Page and Wesley Walker both coming out, and both their RAS scores were pretty... Walker's was extremely poor, and Macari's was about mid-range. He had a 6.73.
00:48:44
Speaker
So, yeah, not much to say on there from my end of things. Like I said, I was fully prepared to let Mike talk on for however long he needed to talk on about him, but...
00:48:55
Speaker
you know, Hey shit happens. So no issues there, but so I got a, a final question for you. Cause we'll wrap up here pretty quick. I figured this was going to be a short episode and we've actually been talking longer than I expected. We were.
00:49:10
Speaker
So always try to ask this but of people.
Overall Draft Strategies and Surprises
00:49:15
Speaker
It's Thursday, the night of the draft Packers are on the board at number 23
00:49:23
Speaker
Let's say one of the regional scouts, you know they've got a bunch of names on the board and they're not sure who to pick. one of the scouts goes, hey, I know a guy. he he's He's never done me wrong. Your phone rings, says, Doc, I need a player.
00:49:36
Speaker
you know Who are we taking? And this could be out of anything, just any player, any position. 23? 23. Okay, you're scaring me here. First round pick.
00:49:46
Speaker
at twenty three okay your ski round pair You're scaring me here a little bit. i You know, I don't know. that That's a weird thing about this year. i haven't been like real deep into the mock draft simulators, but the couple of times that I've looked like pick 23 comes up and I'm like, I don't really know what to here. I don't like the options.
00:50:08
Speaker
I think this, this class is so like the first round is very top heavy. So yeah I feel like there's probably like, 11 ish players that are probably going to end up having first round of grades for me.
00:50:23
Speaker
And that's very small compared to most years. But then i think where this class really excels is like player 12 through player like 45 are all going to be really similarly graded.
00:50:36
Speaker
And I don't love the value of 23. Kyle and I have been going through like every team in the first round and from like episode 11 until like we're, we're already in the mid twenties now.
00:50:48
Speaker
And it's like, there's no trade down options here. Like who's trading up into this range. And I feel like for the Packers, it's they'll get a good player for sure. I just don't think there's anybody I'm clamoring for. Like you have to take this player at 23.
00:51:04
Speaker
I will say this because I'm totally like copying out to your question. Like if it was Shamar Stewart, I don't think he's going to be there.
00:51:14
Speaker
I think Shemar Stewart is a top 10 player, but since he came on a visit and there's some rumors that he's around, I would literally run from Brian Gutekunst office all the way to the draft stage through the crowd to get that card up there.
00:51:27
Speaker
Like Shemar Stewart is amazing. In my opinion, I have had this sneaking suspicion that the Packers were going to take somebody like Mike Cal Williams, the addresser out of Georgia Now it sounds, there's a lot of rumors that he's going to be gone before the Packers pick, but like, he's such a Packers player.
00:51:46
Speaker
And I don't like, Not my favorite guy, but like he just checks all the boxes of what they would do. I guess if I was going to like pound the table for somebody a little off the beaten path, Maxwell Hairston from Kentucky, the cornerback, I think he is really a special guy.
00:52:05
Speaker
There's a lot AJ Terrell to his game, in my opinion. He's... He's a little undersized and he's he's a little bit of a striker, like not a tackler. And that's concerning, especially having gone through Jair.
00:52:19
Speaker
Like Jair, a lot of his injury problems are because he doesn't know how to wrap up. Like you just hit people all the time. but like, oh, just so smooth.
00:52:29
Speaker
He's so athletic. I think, I think he's going to be a really good player if he can stay healthy. I, I know Kyle was saying that he added a little bit of weight. and so he's like in the one nineties now. and And so like, if he can hold that on his frame and and still, you know, have close to the same athleticism, that's a dude that I think, you know, you take him at 23 and people are like, really you drafted this guy here.
00:52:54
Speaker
And then in three years, you're like, oh yeah, we had a great value. And that's that AJ Terrell thing to me because, like, I loved him. He got drafted and everybody was like, how can you take AJ Terrell in the first round? And then, like, now we look back and we're like oh, that was a pretty good pick.
00:53:10
Speaker
also kind of like the Jair thing where everybody, he was drafted and nobody saw that coming at all. And so, so you're pretty set that they're, they're going to reach for a, not reach, but go for a defensive guy and the first round.
00:53:25
Speaker
That's my opinion. i I mean, until they pick a wide receiver in the first round, that's not Javon Walker. i will continue to not think that that is going to happen, but I, you know, like,
00:53:39
Speaker
people love to say what the Packers would do as if they're in the room. Right. And like my, my response is I just don't know. There's a lot of variables. if Justin Jefferson was available when the Packers picked, you know, when they traded up for, for Jordan love, if Justin Jefferson was available, do we think they would have taken Justin Jefferson?
00:54:01
Speaker
Like knowing what we know now that they, they really liked him. Maybe like, I could, I could make that argument. I don't know for sure, but like, I think, I think we, we often say the Packers won't do this until they do it.
00:54:16
Speaker
So they won't take a linebacker in the first round until they took Quay. They won't take an old guy in the first round until they took Devante Wyatt. And like, that doesn't mean that they want to do those things, but I think they're willing to make some exceptions.
00:54:28
Speaker
And, you know, like, Brian Gutekunst, the sample size in the grand scheme of things isn't that big. And so I don't always hold like the Ted Thompson isms against Brian Gutekunst because I think there's some things he likes to do a little different.
00:54:44
Speaker
Are there Packer thresholds for sure? Definitely. Absolutely. Do they make exceptions from time to time? I also think that that that is the case. So could they take a wide receiver in the first round?
00:54:58
Speaker
Yeah. I just don't know who they like. like Right, right. Teterow and McMillan, like does he make sense on this team? ma Maybe? Maybe? Yeah, but there's one thing that just came out recently that he said in a and an interview, and I know it probably was taken out of context, and it's just like, I don't know if I want this kid now.
00:55:17
Speaker
And he said that he doesn't watch tape on himself and... you know He doesn't watch like highlights, but then he also doesn't watch tape on himself. So it's like... tri interesting you You don't watch what you're... you know If the coach says, here, we need you to watch this, you're not watching it?
00:55:35
Speaker
I didn't watch the interview. I just saw the little or saw the little snippet that they wrote up. So, I mean, it could be completely taken out of context, but that just gave me like huge Jamarcus Russell and...
00:55:48
Speaker
and Kyler Murray type things where I don't watch tape. Why do I need to watch tape for? It's like, no, I don't want that.
00:55:58
Speaker
But I've been a big proponent saying that, you know, hey, it's been 23 years since they've taken a a wide receiver in the first round.
00:56:09
Speaker
It's been 25 years since they've taken a tight end in the first round.
00:56:13
Speaker
It would be so much the Packer way. to have the draft in Green Bay. They're going to do something special for the guys going up to the stage.
00:56:25
Speaker
I've heard rumors. I thought I started the rumor, but then somebody told me that they heard it from somewhere else too. that i so Because we had Dan Kotnick early in in our draft thing, and we were talking about the possibility of what they were going to have the players do to get up to the stage. And I said, there's two things I would love to, yeah one one or of the other I would love to see.
00:56:48
Speaker
slide down the Aaron's Hill on an inner tube, or ride the bicycle up to to the stage.
00:56:59
Speaker
And ever since then, I've heard tons of rumors about them actually doing the bicycle tradition to the stage when their name is called in the first round. And the thing that adds a little bit more to that is now on the draft cap is a little bicycle.
00:57:17
Speaker
So... here's This has been my thought process through the whole thing. The draft is in Green Bay. This may be the only time the draft is in Green Bay. We don't know. It all depends on what's going to happen.
00:57:30
Speaker
It's been 23 years since they've went for a wide receiver in the first round. It would be the super Green Bay way of doing something outside the norm in their home city.
00:57:44
Speaker
And this would be the year that they could take somebody. I've never really felt like that before. you know i've I've had the moments where, oh yeah, they need wide receiver, they could take one here. But this is the only time that I've really felt that this is the Green Bay way of them doing something like that.
00:58:01
Speaker
And so I've been pounding the table for it. And there are some guys there that could, Harris out of Ole Miss, depending on what they feel on him,
00:58:11
Speaker
I know a lot of people are pushing like Burden and Golden, but they're more slot guys. And, you know, we've already got the Jalen Jaden Reed.
00:58:22
Speaker
Do you need another slot guy in there? But i think there's going to be some guys there that could make it interesting for them. Well, if if they wait until the second round, if they take Alec Iomanor in the second, I will be purchasing his jersey on Friday night.
00:58:41
Speaker
Express shipping. Get it to me.
00:58:46
Speaker
That's my guy. Or just just give me a call. I'll be up there. So I'll be right there at the stadium. You just give me a call and we'll get it made up for you. there you go There you go. Customize that. I can't wait.
00:58:59
Speaker
But... Andrew, it's been fun to have yawn like you on. We'll have to get you on sometime during the season, so we can get you get your insights on that, too. And we'll get you on here when Mike's actually here, so Mike can actually be a part of the conversation.
00:59:12
Speaker
But why don't you tell everybody where they can find you and what you're up to right now and all that good stuff. Yeah, for social media, I'm only on blue sky anymore because I'm not fun, but i you can find me on the Packaday podcast. We're on the Friday episode. We're also doing a mini series of on the clock.
00:59:31
Speaker
So that is going through every single team picks one through 32 and what their draft needs are. So you can find that on the Packaday audio. Or you can find it on the Draft Fellows YouTube channel.
00:59:42
Speaker
And then we're also doing some Draft Fellows content too. And on the Packet Day podcast on Sunday, the we we had an entire first round mock draft that Kyle and I went back and forth on. So tons of draft content, but check it out if you want to.
01:00:00
Speaker
That's where you can find him. You can find, I'm strict. I still have my Elon account, but I don't use it. Mainly. I just have it for the, the group chats that we're a part of because right now they really haven't done the group chat thing for, for blue sky, but I'm a blue sky, Iowa underscore Joe. I think it's either that or it's Iowa Joe, just no space.
01:00:25
Speaker
Uh, You can reach out to me on on the Elon machine if you want, Iowa underscore Joe 86, the show at Ohana underscore Packers. Find us on Instagram, Facebook, all that good stuff, Ohana Packers Edition.
01:00:38
Speaker
Please be sure to like and follow and subscribe and do all that good stuff for us. Let us get our our numbers up there. Let us get out there. Let more people hear what we've got going on.
01:00:50
Speaker
We've got a lot of great guests. We want to get a lot more like Andrew and Sarah and and Dusty and all those guys on all those on here. So the more you like, the more you get our numbers up, the more people that listen to it, the more that we have, the more chance we can get more guests on.
01:01:10
Speaker
please go over and check out the website, ohanapackers.org. Find our all our articles. Carlos is doing some great stuff over there. I just put up one this past week.
01:01:21
Speaker
Got to get Mike going on his stuff. But we got a lot of great stuff over there. Find past episodes. And then, of course, our merch store. I know you guys aren't going to see this right now because i we don't do the video side of things. But I'm actually wearing one of our shirts right now.
01:01:38
Speaker
Go over and get you one of those stickers, mugs, everything else. Helps us all out. Helps us get, you know, needed things for the show. Like Mike always says, go pack go and aloha.