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EP 51: SLEEP
1.5k Plays3 months ago
In this episode, we dive deep into one of the hottest topics in motherhood: sleep. We explore the universal struggle of sleepless nights and discuss how sleep, or the lack thereof, impacts both moms and babies. We share our personal experiences with sleep during different stages of motherhood, highlighting the highs and lows of nighttime parenting. We also break down what sleep training actually is, discussing various methods and approaches. We share some of our favorite resources, including books, websites, and experts that have been invaluable to us. Whitney gets vulnerable and opens up about a scary experience during Margot's newborn months while attempting sleep training, shedding light on the emotional and mental challenges that come with it.
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Transcript
00:00:07
Speaker
There's no right way to do it.
00:00:12
Speaker
Oh, we're going to get into it. What up moms? My name is Candice and I'm here with my best friend Whitney and this is the mom group chat podcast. Hey guys. How are we today? I actually have something funny to bring up. ah Oh God, I'm scared. You should be. What's wrong? No, it's nothing's wrong. um It actually just sparked a memory. I was talking to my friends and someone brought up Russian coffee and I thought, I've had some Russian coffee in New York City Central Park when we went ice skating and then...
00:00:55
Speaker
I know where this is going. Candace, I was like, I just have to bring up this story because I had i voice noted it and I couldn't get through it. I was i was wheezing, laughing so hard. Picture. I'm going to do it again. I was like crying.
00:01:19
Speaker
Talk about it. I can't even talk about it. um So this is back when Candace lived in New York and we had ourselves a day. like yeah I look back and it's one of the best days of my life. Same. It was like one it hands down one of the funnest days of my life. yeah Oh my gosh. and Candace had roommates, Mackenzie and Mark, who are still our good friends today. and We just had ourselves a little New York day. We dragged them to do all the touristy things. We went to Times Square. We went to Central Park, and it was snowing. I think we came in February. Yeah, it was like the height of winter. Which is ideal. I like going to all the wintery places. But Chris and I came up to visit. visit We were like freshly married, not even a year in. But we we went to Central Park.
00:02:15
Speaker
We're like, ah, let's go. Let's go ice skating. That sounds fun. And can you talk about it? It starts bragging. Yeah, I was confident. I was you guys. I was so confident. I mean, if there's one thing about me, I'm going to be confident. like I was like going on and on about how I am so good at ice skating. I'm going to be so good. like I was a gymnast for 12 years. like I was like, oh, I'm going to be so good at this. I have never been more confident about anything in my life.
00:02:53
Speaker
ok Like and I was I was probably running my mouth. I don't know why I but I was. We had been drinking. Yeah, I was going to say i you looked at a very like specific detail of the story is that this day started with bottomless brunch. I'm pretty sure like. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And this this was like the height of bottomless brunch days. I feel like nowadays when you go to a bottomless brunch, they're like maybe it's just that I've gotten older, but they're like not as litty titty as they used to be. I mean, this was like the height of bottomless brunch. Hey, days. I mean, we were twenty five or something. And so.
00:03:35
Speaker
you were like, oh my gosh, there's this new thing going on, like, bottomless brunch for two hours. And we were like, challenge accepted. Like, what? Okay. And I also need to note that that the place we went was not just mimosas. There was like three different types of drinks you could get and they were all bottomless. It was like Bloody Mary's. And then this like, There were some vodka lemonade something I don't I don't know Anyways, so this whole day was very much alcohol fueled. Okay, that's all I'm gonna say that's all Anyway, so it started with that somehow we wandered into Central Park um And Candace we all get our skates on I think like we were already out on the ice and here comes Candace confident as can be
00:04:25
Speaker
Takes one motherfucking step on that ice. And her legs shoot out from underneath her. She landed on her back. No, but it's like, you guys, it's not even just that one time. Like when I say I couldn't stay on my feet, I couldn't stay on my feet.
00:04:57
Speaker
Meanwhile, a Mark and Chris are running circles around us. Mark and Chris look like they could have been in the Olympics. Like they are at the Winter Olympics and I am literally unable to stay on my feet. They would go do a lap, come back, check on Candice. You could do a lap, come back. It was like they were holding hands doing tricks in the air. Like, oh my God, it was so funny. It was like, I think Chris said when we finished, he said, every time I looked back at y'all, Candace was on the floor. And I remember we were all laughing so hard that it was like truly like I was going to pee myself on this ice because we were laughing so hard.
00:05:39
Speaker
It was just one of those days that was so filled with like free joy. I don't know how to explain it. like Those days, ah it was just one of the best days ever and the stories from it. Well, i when I brought it up, I was like, man, I used to be fun because then it, I was telling them about the Russian part, how they were, they were, I don't know, some gathering or celebration. It was a Russian holiday. Yes. like And we just stumbled upon them and we're like,
00:06:10
Speaker
drunk. What y'all doing? You know, yeah yeah and they're like have some of this. And it was like in and like one of those. It was like a sports cooler. Yeah. but where It's like igloo cooler. And it had a little tap and they're like, here you go. And we're all just like, fuck it. Give me some. And so we started drinking it. And next thing I don't even remember what it tastes like. But no. But next thing I know, we all have our arms wrapped around each other in a circle and we're kicking. That's right. We like we joined in on like the Russian dances. Oh, my God. It was such a New York day. And then we went to Mexican and had margaritas. Yeah. Oh, my God. Wow. I want to relive it. I do. I would feel like absolute death the next day, but I would do it tomorrow if you ask me.
00:07:02
Speaker
ah Yeah. And so we just kept going. It was like we didn't want it to end. So then we went to Mexican and just were like downing margaritas. And then I don't remember what happened. Maybe we went to bed. i I can't remember if anything else happened that day. Yeah. So wait, hold on. What made you think about this story? ah Well, my friend Claire brought up something about I I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this but she like does house visits with a nurse practitioner and they um Yeah, one of the nurses
00:07:35
Speaker
went to this house and the Russians were like giving, trying to give her this coffee and they're like, it's custom. Like you have to do it. Oh, that's right. Sorry. The Russian coffee. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then, um, she felt weird after and she got scared. So I thought it was like drugs or something. Yeah. And so I was like, I have a Russian coffee story. But yeah, it just brought up the memory and it is also like fresh in my head and it made me laugh so hard remembering it. So. Well, we've been talking about doing a girls winter New York trip. Like, and I think that needs to happen this winter. Neither of us are pregnant.
00:08:14
Speaker
Like just a weekend. And I mean, like stay at a hotel and like have like a fun. When do you want to go? I know Christmas is busy. I was going to say either early December or like middle of January. i feel Like January is safe. Yeah. It's after the holidays, the crowds have dissipated, no one's up there as much, even though I would love to go at Christmas, but that's just a death sentence of being bombarded with crowds. and Yeah. but So that's kind of what, yeah. Yeah. yeah So I'm down for January. Hey, McKinsey, we're coming.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, let's do that. Well, I also have a funny story, but it's probably not as funny and way shorter than that story. But but I said this to Whitney over text the other day. I was like, I have a funny story of something Alice did, but I'm going to wait and tell you on the pod. And she's like, you always do this. I'm always withholding. You're starting to get too gatekeepy for me. I know, I know. I need to just tell you. She wants my like sincere reaction on the pod. I do. I want your sincere reaction. And now I'm building this up. This this story like really isn't that like crazy or anything.
00:09:29
Speaker
But the other day I'm changing Evie's diaper in her room and Alice walks into the room and she said, what's in my mouth? And she opened her mouth and she lifted up her tongue and under her tongue was something red. And I was like, at first glance, she's obsessed with those Annie's gummies. Do you eat those? OK, no. Yeah. So she's obsessed with those Annie's gummies. So I was like, oh, her dad probably gave her like an Annie's gummy, whatever. And I said, oh, a gummy. And she goes, no, what's in my mouth?
00:10:07
Speaker
And she opened her mouth again and I was like, what the fuck? So I reached my hand in there and I pull out this red thing that's in her mouth under her tongue. And I look at it and I realize that it is one of my fingernails.
00:10:25
Speaker
that I had lost one of my, if you, for those of you who can't see my hands, I really need to get my nails done and I only have like two nails left on each hand. And she had one of my fingernails in her mouth under her tongue. I feel like that would totally happen at my house because I wear a lot of like pop on and off ones. Yeah. See, mine aren't even they're not press on, but they are like the dip and they kind of pop off all at once, you know? But I was like, oh, my God. Like how she knew that it was wrong. And she's like, yeah, it's been my oh oh yeah. Oh, yeah. That's how she's been doing that a lot recently. She like knows something's wrong, but she like wants recognition that it's wrong. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:09
Speaker
Oh my God, that's so funny. I feel like now that Margot's on the move, I'm finding everything in her mouth. Like our couch is down and she just eats feathers all frickin' day. I'm like, Margot, stop it. There's just soggy feathers all on the carpet. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God, that's funny. Nasty. Poor Margot. How is Margot, girl? She's doing great. She's in her fourth week of daycare. thriving And she's good. You know, I was talking to my mom today and I was like, you know, I'm so glad I did the nanny thing, but I was like, I like daycare better.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah. It's hard when they're in your house and you have to work there. Yes. And I loved my girl, like obsessed with her. um It's nothing against her or anything. um But it was she was Margo's getting to the age where she was very vocal, like very busy. I could hear everything that was going on. Like I felt like I was still taking on some of the stress of. her not napping correctly and so I was like still very involved and so now it's like a little out of sight out of mind and and if she naps like shit there I'm like well it is what it is like yeah so the responsibility is off me again a little bit so yeah I was like man I'm so glad I did it I'm glad she did it for as long as she did she's older now I'm just I like it better
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you touched on a good topic. That's a good segue into what we're talking about today on this episode. And that is sleep. You mentioned stress or dealing with stress about naps and sleeping. And we haven't done, I mean, we're 50 episodes in and we haven't really done a sleep episode. I feel like in some ways in almost every episode, we talk about like sleep in some way, whether it's our sleep or the baby's sleep or whatever, but we haven't really done like a full sleep episode. So that's what we're going to do today. Which is crazy because sleep consumes my life. like Yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel like that is probably
00:13:22
Speaker
my biggest qualm with newborn life. So yeah, I feel like I did a talk about this. Yeah, it's been I mean, let's just jump to it here. Like sleep is one of the hardest parts of having kids like and I think there's a lot of reasons why it's hard. hard because it's like you can't control it always. like It's completely out of your control as a mom and as a parent, but also it's ever changing. We talk about sleep in newborn life, but there's also so many like nuances with sleep in toddlers and as they get older with and become kids and teenagers, like it's something we're always going to be thinking about and that's a little like overwhelming to realize.
00:14:11
Speaker
It's so hard. um And I don't feel like I put as much infants emphasis on if episode episode on training Graydon. I was a little lax in the beginning. I remember I ah really was just like overwhelmed with the whole thing. right um And so with Margot, I was like, oh, I'm going to jump on it. I know what I'm doing this time. like I'm going to go buy the book. Mom's on call, blah, blah, blah. And it was still hard. I was like, um and to be honest, like, I think newborn and sleep played a big factor in Chris and I's discussion of not
00:14:55
Speaker
having a third child because really yeah, it really I mean What would we like love a third kid? Of course, but like he obviously got and snip snipped But that was a big factor on my end that like newborn life is really hard on both of us and um Yeah, I went through I went through it, you know, and I was going to say I was. Yeah, I was kind of hoping that you would talk about your experience with sleep and how it affected you, because I think, yes, of course, there's like that we could talk and we are going to talk on this episode about like, what is sleep training and like what we did and like all of that stuff. But I think it's important to note like the effect that sleep has
00:15:46
Speaker
on our kids, but also on us as parents and how it negatively affects us or positively affects us, like how we feel when we get a great night's sleep and how we show up as a mom. But I think you in particular. I don't know Evie's just been a great sleeper so I i can't like speak like honestly I've just been hashtag blessed, but I think you have had a tougher time with Margo and, and i I hope this doesn't sound like
00:16:18
Speaker
ah I don't know what's the word. Like an insult. That's not what I mean. I think you're sensitive to sleep. I am. I don't know what I think. It's just my my personality is I'm a morning person. Like I've always been that way. And at night, like I just kind of shut off. And that's just how I've always been my whole life. Like. I just don't don't bother me in the night because I wake up at 6 a.m. Bushy eyed and what's it what is it? Bright eyed and bushy tailed, yes. That's how I wake up. And when the newborn is waking me up, I am not well. And I also didn't realize how
00:17:05
Speaker
I don't even consider myself type A. I'm pretty like chill as a person. Yeah. But when it comes to her or not knowing, like you said, having control of a schedule, it was driving me. Absolutely insane. like I like ordering my day with the kids. i'm I follow NAP schedules. I do all of that. And so for it to be very unpredictable, I hated it. And um just not knowing is inevitable. I can't talk. Inevitable. um Waking up in the night. like I always had the nighttime scaries any time it started to get dark out. and
00:17:46
Speaker
having her in late August, like the time change comes in November and it was getting darker earlier and I was just like, oh, the looming doom of the night is coming. I went through it. um Like I said, it was probably month four. I started sleep training her about at about 14 weeks because She had hit the requirements, which is being above 12 pounds. And it was something else in the book. I should look it up. But she had hit the requirements. And so I was like, oh, I'll just start like, you know, trying the cry it out method and this and that. And she kind of got the hang of it. And I was like, oh, my God, the light at the end of the tunnel were here. Right. And then in January, the four month regression hit and she regressed.
00:18:36
Speaker
And I was so unwell. I had a panic attack in the middle of the night. It was like 3 a.m. She had woken up. She was crying and crying and crying. And I went in my closet and like was shaking in a fetal position, crying and shaking. And I, Chris came in there and he just like held me and I was like, I don't know what to do anymore. Like I need help because I felt like the weight of all the sleep training and why she wasn't sleeping through the night was my fault or I wasn't doing something right during the day like she wasn't getting enough calories enough bottles her she wasn't sleeping enough during the day so it was affecting the night and so I was at a loss because I was like following everything to a tee and I just
00:19:25
Speaker
freaked out. Yeah. I have had a full on panic attack in the middle of the night and Chris was like, it's not your fault. Like, and then he got, I mean, he got scared because, you know, at four months he was like, maybe you should talk to somebody. Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, I think I scared myself enough that I really think I should, too. It had definitely like. Created a deep sense of anxiety for you, and I was I was. the same thing with brain Yeah, it did it with you, too. um And I didn't really do anything about it, and that's why.
00:20:01
Speaker
I did the same thing with Margo. I was like, well, I know it goes away. Once I start sleeping, it'll all go away. It'll all go away. But I had never like had a panic attack like that before. So, um, yeah, I, I talked to the doctor. I was just like, look, my best friend died in November. I am not sleeping. I was like, I feel crazy. I was like, I'm crying all the time. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. And. Yeah, I mean, she was like, yep, that'll do. Yeah, she um because I kept saying it was postpartum anxiety and she was like, it's actually postpartum depression. um But anxiety stems from that. And yeah, um I learned that a lot of because I also had a little bit of anger um mixed in there. Anytime she wasn't sleeping, I was like not.
00:20:54
Speaker
I felt like I wasn't the best mom because any little inconvenience, I was ragey. Right. Because I was so tired and I realized it was spiking a lot during my periods. um And they had started back again in November. So it was like November, December, January. I was like every time I was getting my period, I was raging. um And so we kind of learned that that had a lot to do with it, like a dip in my Yeah. Hormones hormones. Um, so yeah, it was like a scary time, but then once like I, I knew once she started sleeping through the night, I kind of felt more like myself and.
00:21:36
Speaker
It really helped. I don't want to go through that again personally. yeah right Like I said, it had a big factor in our decision. Right. Well, everyone everyone has their own like triggers of things that like just affect them deeper. And I am so happy that you shared that because I think it's going to make a lot of moms feel really seen. I think that sleep can have a deep, deep effect on our well-being as moms. And a lot of people are scared to like talk about it. And because as moms, like you like we're told um during our whole pregnancies and preparing for baby, like, oh, you're gonna get less sleep. like you It's like, do we know we know that newborn life comes with less sleep, but it's hard to really express
00:22:30
Speaker
like what how that actually feels in the moment. It's really like life altering. Yeah. Like have that loss of control to be so tired, to feel like like you're not yourself because sleep deprivation can do that. I mean, it's used as a form of torture for a reason. I know I've said that before, but it It's true. You feel desperate for any sense of normalcy. And I literally was like, I'll do anything just to like get eight hours of sleep again and.
00:23:09
Speaker
I knew with the second, I was like, it's coming, it's coming great. And started sleeping through the night at three months, like, or four months. I don't, I remember it was Christmas. I just, I had a timeline in my head because he was born October 1st and he was like inconsistently, but sleeping through the night here and there. And I thought, okay, it's coming. It's coming. And when it didn't, I was like, I think i I set myself up for failure by comparing. And I just i thought, i like I said, doing something wrong. And I was beating myself up for it. And when I was sobbing to Chris, I was like, please help me. Please help me. I cannot have all of this on my shoulders. like Please take on some of the responsibility. Please try something new. like
00:23:56
Speaker
I was like, I can't keep trying all these different things. like I'm getting worn out. Yeah, it was just crazy. the The nanny did start and she was so helpful. I felt like we kind of shared responsibility um because she was at least there during the day and if I needed reprieve, like it was all on her. and I'd be like, okay, we're going to try dropping a nap today. And so she would do it. And it was just like a nice to have someone in the game with me. I was going to say you, it was probably, you probably felt isolated a little bit. yeah Just like, it's like you put all the weight on like dealing with the sleep and the changes like on yourself when. Which is not Chris's spot. He just was at work. And so I was yeah like playing trial and error here and.
00:24:39
Speaker
It was just so nice to have like a partner to do that with and like I will thank her till the end of time for being that like sounding board and Partner and helping me with that. But man, it just puts me through the frickin ringer. Yeah not great I was so proud of you for like asking for help and getting help back I remember when all of this was going on and Um, I mean, and really this was one of the main reasons I wanted to really talk about this is because I think a lot of moms feel similar way. I, in fact, I saw, I saw a post, I don't know if it was like in my mama's like us or baking little babes or so something like that. And it was a girl talking about her newborn and she was like, I, I am at a loss. Like, I don't know what to do. Like I feel so.
00:25:32
Speaker
I don't even, like she was like, i i i'm just I don't have anything to say other than like I hate this. And she was like, and I feel awful that to say that, but like I hate this. Does it get better? Do I hate my baby? like I think she literally wrote something like that. and ah that you do You do feel that way in the moment. like I remember like Alice was definitely a worse sleeper than Evie. She didn't sleep through the night till she was nine months. so i Like, I remember holding her and bouncing her in my room and being like, I hate this. Like, I want, like, I wish I could just put you down and walk away, truly. Remember when you dropped that but bomb on Shannon and I, and we were both like, excuse me, what? And you're like, yeah, she's been waking up in the middle of the night through like 10 months. And Shannon and I were like, you didn't talk about that whatsoever. You were just like, yeah, it just happens. She goes right back to sleep, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:31
Speaker
I don't know I think it's I think this goes back to like I am a night owl like I'm a night girl so I it like I'm up late anyway like I don't really go to bed till like midnight or so anyway and then adopt like really the last from like for four or five months to Nine months. She would only wake up once and it was around 11 12 and I was already awake and I was still awake anyway And I would feed her and put her right back down and I could go to sleep Like that's the other thing is it's very easy for me to go back to sleep once I'm awake And I know that's something you and I talked about that's not as easy for you i guess Yeah, I it wall it wakes me up and then I'm like stimulated. I'm like right awake and And so it takes me like two hours usually to go back to sleep. If I wake up at all in the night, if I, this is probably not, uh, something people are going to like resonate with as much, but I turn off the monitors off my phone because if it notifies me whatsoever, even if Margo's just like goes,
00:27:33
Speaker
And the night and it goes off, I'm going to wake up like I'm just a light sleeper and yeah, it's going to wake me up because then I think in my head, Oh my God, is she awake? Like do I, am I going to have to get up and do something? So then I'm just. all up and at them. so I turn everything off. I'm like, do not disturb. I can hear you if something is actually wrong. They live right next door to me in the room. If it's like ongoing, yes, I will wake up, but if it's just a little peep, I can't can't have it wake up. That's totally fair. That's totally fair. and i think a lot
00:28:09
Speaker
like I mean, now that I have Evie and she's still like little-ish, I have it on. But like with Alice, I don't have it on a lot of the time. No, but I can hear them. As a mom, you know your baby's coo and you're like, ah, what's the wrong? Totally. um yeah Well, thank you for sharing. Oh, wait, hold on. One more question for you. Was there like a clear difference between Graydon and Margot or was it just that with Graydon you didn't know what you were doing as much and then with Margot you tried to like over control that it felt harder or do you feel like Margot was a little more difficult than Graydon? All of the above. I i don't know. i
00:28:57
Speaker
I let him sleep on me for longer. like I started having her do naps in the crib like pretty early on. um I was like, okay, she's going to learn to sleep in the crib, and she took that on pretty well. um But like with Graydon, I let him sleep on me all the time. He would um if he ever woke up from a crib nap and it was maybe 30 minutes, I could extend his nap if he if I put him on me like he just was like easier in that way. And I'd be like, well, I'm just nap stuck like whatever.
00:29:30
Speaker
And I think a big difference- He's here to soothe. Yeah, and I mean, i I think a big difference was that he also took the Passy and Margot doesn't. And so he was easier to soothe back to sleep. Like if she's up, she's up. So with him, it was like, okay, he I can extend a nap if I just put the Passy in and he lays on me, he'll just go right back to sleep and he would. So I don't know. he was ah It's like harder in different ways. like Yeah, he I would get nap trapped a lot with him. um And then with her, it's just like. It is what it is. She woke up a lot during the night. um Yeah. And I think it was because I tried to over control because I knew if I did that, there was a light at the end of the tunnel. And I was like, oh I'm just going to get on it quicker. I know what I'm doing. This is what I did with Graydon. And I might have done it too early or the a regression with her lasted a month. So
00:30:28
Speaker
I was just desperate. I was desperate. We went through a little bit of a regression with Evie, but it was like three days. It was like that was it. It was the it was the whole month of January. Brought me down. I brought you down. Took me down. That's why I was like, oh, my God. commit me. Please actually yeah do that so I can get some sleep. yeah Yeah, for real. You like daydream about being admitted to the hospital. Please help.
00:31:03
Speaker
ah Well, I think that's also one of the biggest things I want to like, if you're listening to this and you're a new mom or you're thinking about having a second, like I do wanna say that every baby is different. And like no matter how much you try to control or like maybe your first baby was an amazing sleeper and you do all the same things for your second baby, like you still might not have the same result, which is why sleep is so frustrating because you can follow all the rules and read all the books and do all the right things and you still may not get the result you want, which is so frustrating.
00:31:38
Speaker
Exactly. yeah but yeah You had the opposite thing happen. Yeah. well yeah i Alice was hard, but I don't know. There was something about it where, and I know everyone says this, but like I just forgot. I forgot that it was bad and hard. And then I had Evie and I, I will say like in general though, I've been way more chill with Evie as far as like, I mean, I have followed moms on call in the sense of like, we eat at certain times, like we follow that schedule.
00:32:12
Speaker
But her sleep has just kind of like fallen into place on its own in a weird way, which I know I'm very like I said, I know that that's not the norm. Believe me, it was not the norm with Alice. But I don't know. I've just held on to it looser this time. And I like but she sleeps on the go a lot. Like I'm I try not to like have her tie us to the house like too much because so good of you. Like if I don't know if I she's still so little that sometimes I feel like she's sleeping all the time still like not really I guess she takes like three naps a day though still.
00:32:55
Speaker
I think that's normal. I think Margo only dropped a two within the last month or two, so that's very normal. I feel like if we, I don't know, I try to, one of those naps, at least one of those naps per day is going to be on the go. Which you can't help with an older kid. That's how it was with Margot. I would rather have her sleep on the go for one of those naps than be stuck in this house all day with Alice. No offense to Alice. Love her so much. But also, being stuck with her all day in the house is a lot. Yeah. No, I think we did the same thing. Just like shuttling, reading back and forth from daycare, or like any of he was doing a lot of little sporty things earlier this year. It was just you kind of have to go with the flow on that.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah, it is what it is. All right. Well, I thought we'd talk about some like, if you're here to learn, get out your pen and paper people. I'm just kidding. Um, I thought that we would talk about like some more tangible things, like takeaway things. So if you are a new mom, I just wanted to define sleep training because I As I was doing my research for this episode, one of my things was like, I say sleep training all the time, but I don't really actually know what that means like. Or I i wasn't sure about the official definition. To me, sleep training is teaching your baby how to self soothe and put themself to sleep, like putting your baby awake in the crib
00:34:33
Speaker
and have them learn to put themselves to sleep. That's what sleep training is to me. Well, you're correct because ah sleep train, ding, ding, ding. Sleep training is a broad term that reforms reforms but refers, let me run that back. Sleep training is a broad term that refers to a variety of strategies that help babies learn to fall asleep and stay asleep on their own. So you're right, that's exactly it. So it can include techniques like establishing a nighttime routine, recognizing signs of tiredness, or gradually increasing the time between responding to a baby's cries. Uh, sleep training is, can be safe and healthy for babies of any age, but some experts recommend starting when they are between four and six months old. Yeah. Again, that is like high emphasis on some experts. Like it really depends on your baby. Yep. I think.
00:35:32
Speaker
um At this age, babies are often able to sleep for six hours between feedings and ah may no longer need night feedings at all. um Yeah, so. Yeah, I think that was a part of the training was dropping the middle of the night bottle and teaching them. And that was what's in the book is that their digestive system is mature enough to know that they don't need that bottle anymore. If you're getting I think it was between 28 and 32 ounces of milk a day. And if they're getting the calories during the day, they should learn that they don't necessarily need it in the night. So I was at that point and she was over the 12 pounds, but like, I think I started at three and a half months old. I started too early and then she hit the regression. So then I was like, ah. Oh, okay. See what you're saying. But she was such a big,
00:36:25
Speaker
baby that I was like, well, she's at the 12 pound mark, but maybe she just wasn't mature enough, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a good. to Silly me. Well, maybe next time. hello yeah just kidding Yeah. So that was my fault. um But yeah, I love that. i I mean, I'm a big advocate for sleep training because, yeah, me too. I mean, now i I all I have to do is walk in there, put her down and she can go to sleep. Not at night. yeah At night we do the bottle and I'll rock her for a little bit, but that's only at night. But she can be put down for any nap awake and she will put herself to sleep, which is yeah perfect. So.
00:37:09
Speaker
I would say one of my biggest tips for new moms or people who just want to get into a better like ah a better place with sleep. My first tip, and I tell a lot of like newborn moms this, is to get outside in the sun every single day. like Have your baby's eyes see the sun because, and I know it's hot, especially in the summer, but the sun is literally what triggers their natural so circadian rhythm.
00:37:41
Speaker
So I know it's hard to like leave the house in those early days, but it is so important. Even if you just walk in the backyard with holding your baby for five minutes, like yeah it's gonna i that is a good tip. That is something I learned from Lala. Oh, from Vanderpump Rules? From Vanderpump. She said that she would just walk outside because it forced her baby to close their eyes because it's so bright. And so, yeah, and like anytime um it was like very early on and Margo was like really fussy, like screaming or something, I would walk outside and she would like just naturally close her eyes and she would calm down and Chris would come out and be like, how did you do that? I'm like, I learned it from Lala.
00:38:31
Speaker
Wow. it were most I was going to say that's that's a legit tip right there. Yeah, it worked. um I think also establishing like we start a bedtime routine like super early in our house. Like we started a ah solid bedtime. Routine with both of our girls are around a month old, like I think um I mean, it just kind of naturally fell into place with Margo. I mean, you can't bathe them super early right up front, but like she just started taking a bath with Graydon right away like as soon as she could. um Yeah, doing the bath with him. OK, we don't we don't do that. I think it's just because we have the wrong seat or we have like a tub that sits inside the tub.
00:39:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So we have that ba separate but angel bath. Yeah. um do you think would have gotten that Which now she's a little big for she can sit up on her own, but I need one of those mats you put in there where she won't like slide around. But yeah. Yeah. She's been doing bath every night for as long as I can remember. Yeah, I think establishing a good nighttime routine like that, like for us, it's like i I will turn their big lights in their room off. Like in the evenings, we only use like lamp light, so like dimmer lighting.
00:39:55
Speaker
We do bath, we get into our jammies, like I brush their hair. Like I feel, and I, I even go as far to like, when we're doing bedtime routine, I try to talk softer. Like it's those types of things that like calm their nervous system. I think, I don't know. And do their skin care routine. yeah
00:40:17
Speaker
Little facial massage. They wear cucumbers and legs. The Donnelly girls are getting pampered. Oh, my God. ah But I think I mean, not the skincare routine. I was going to say that I think that helps not the skincare routine, though nighttime routine really does help to like ah establish. I guess they call that sleep hygiene in the deep world. It's like having good sleep hygiene, which is like establishing good routines around sleep. I think it just sets the foundation for your family and I know as a first-time mom I remember I don't know when you're not a mom yet and they're like hey like or you have a friend that does have kids and they're like we have to go home it's bath time routine it's this and that and I remember thinking like can't you just skip it tonight like
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah. We're having fun. Like, hello. And now that I am a mom, it's like, I don't know. It's just part of your everyday life. And you're like, I just don't want to like mess it up or like change things up. But I mean, we will here and there now that Graydon's older and Margo could probably care less. but I don't know, in those early stages, it's so good. Such a good foundation to, like you said, sleep train. Yeah. I also think bath time specifically, like, is something to do. Like, just as simple as that. It passes the time. Totally. My kids love the bath, so it's just something that I know is going to kill 30, 40 minutes. Like, I'll let them play. She loves to play with the toys.
00:41:50
Speaker
So like, yeah, we could skip bath, but then that's 40 minutes. I got to entertain with something else, you know, for sure. It gets goinging away from the TV. Well, yeah, sometimes he won't get out, but um I entice him and like, you can get your Lammy. And he's like, I'm ready to get out. And so it just is really cute. And yeah, he picks out his pajamas now and he likes Halloween and Christmas ones still. I'm like, can we pick the fourth of July, my guy, like that's so different holiday. He loves Halloween, but, um, yeah, it's super cute, super fun. Um, did you follow any kind of sleep training method in particular? Um,
00:42:38
Speaker
I guess technically like the Ferber method is probably like the closest. Which is where you check on them. Mm hmm. Like I yeah like I would check on her and there's like a whole Ferber scale I think that you can find our mind maybe yeah we can share it and I would go you know it's like you wait five minutes and then you go in and you soothe them and calm them without picking them up you never pick them up But you go in there and you let them know that they're that you're there and everything is fine. And my ah hack for especially when they're younger, like this would not work for Alice now. She would be like, what the fuck are you doing?
00:43:20
Speaker
But I will take my hand on Evie's forehead and I just simply stroke her forehead downward and just your thumb being close to her eyes causes their eyes to close. Like blink. Yeah. And blink. So that always works. That's something I did with Alice. I actually learned it from our newborn photographer. I watched her. I was doing, that I would like do both. Yeah. and like go over Yeah. it Yeah. So um yeah, you wait five minutes and then you go in there and sue them if they're still crying and then like the time gradually gets longer and longer. In my experience, like even with Alice, like I never had to go past 10 minutes, like really. like they never Unless there was something going on, like
00:44:08
Speaker
I don't know, they were sick or like whatever. And in those cases, I think like you kind of have to take a different approach. Like if Alice was sick or like having some sort of issue that was not just like her not wanting to go to bed, like I maybe would pick her up and rock her in the rocking chair or something. But most of the time, like I never got to longer than 15 minutes, like 10, 15 minutes. So question for you now that you've moved Evie into her room, have you been nervous of her waking up Alice?
00:44:41
Speaker
every day of my life. And in fact, I right now have a towel that sits ah in the space under Alice's door because I'm so nervous that because their rooms are right next to each other and my house is not very big. So I and it's old. So I just feel like you can hear everything. So I literally have a towel and in the space under her door because I'm so nervous that Evie's going to wake her up. But there is no I'll go ahead. And I will say that has affected my sleep a little bit in the like kind of like what we were talking about with the monitor thing. Like I've been more aware of the monitor because I don't want her to get to the point where she's screaming in fear that she will wake up Alice because I do feel in general still like Alice is harder to put back down than Evie is. Evie will go back down to sleep. Like I know that. But Alice is a little more like she's up.
00:45:38
Speaker
And I'm nervous if that happens. So I've turned her hatch way up, man. It is on like when there's fireworks outside level. Like that is it's up. Have you read the zero to six months mom mom's on call like sleep part yet? Hold on. I think I have it. Oh, I don't. There is such a good section in there about um having another child. And it said to um turn your brain off from thinking about the other child. They. OK, I got to read that. Oh, it is. It helped me immensely. um It basically just says that.
00:46:21
Speaker
they aren't as like super aware like we are and that their instinct isn't, oh, I got to get up and help. So they are able to sleep through it. And they said to just continue sleep training your baby and let them cry it out like it's not going to affect siblings like you think it will. Oh, OK, that's good to know. Yeah, it helped me so, so much. You should read that part. And I know like that their my kids rooms aren't as close as yours, but I know that they kind of share a hallway. But um yeah, just that helped me immensely because I was like, I'm not going to let her cry it out. I was jumping at any opportunity that she might wake up Graydon. And then it said, don't worry about Graydon. He's fine. So I was like, OK. And he was. We just let her go at it. Wow.
00:47:13
Speaker
Well, speaking of moms on call, I would, I just want to, I want to wrap this up by just sharing kind of the resources that we found really helpful. I know both of us are big moms on call girlies here. So that's definitely one of them that you should go check out if you're looking to like. Like, especially with schedules, I think they have the best scheduling system and template and the books are amazing. The app is amazing. I use the mom's on call app that has the schedule, which schedule just meaning like, Hey, this is a good time to feed them and put them down if they're at this age. So it's just yeah so helpful when you're like, what am I doing? Like,
00:47:57
Speaker
They're but napping here and there on the go doing this. it's like It just helps you get in more of a routine. and um It's just so nice to have. i Well, I think as moms, like we have so much on our plate already to figure out. This is just one less thing. Yes. We crave someone. like Just tell me what to freaking do. I've got 10 other things to do. Yeah, I will say I also took the taking care of babies sleep course without when I i took it. Yeah, we took that. I remember watching it when Alice was like three weeks old being like, OK, I don't even know where to start. And I do think that that taking care of babies course is a great place to start for like new parents, newborn moms.
00:48:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great way to learn how to soothe them like by bouncing and how to swaddle correctly. If you're doing that versus like the Velcro halo, sweet sack, swaddle. It was very helpful and just soothing in general. Yeah. And then my last piece of advice is kind of like an overarching general thing. And it's that ask for help if you need it. I struggled with this. My husband does not wake up in the night. The man could sleep through World War four. OK. um And I didn't ask for help with Alice a lot. And I've been better at asking for help with this baby and with Evie.
00:49:25
Speaker
but ask for help, whether that's from family members, if you need to sleep or take a nap, or if it is even further than that of like, you have tried everything and you're at your wit's end, like talk to a sleep consultant. I know there are a ton of them um out there. And if you're one of the lucky ones, maybe you can have a night nurse. Get a night nurse if if that's in the cards for you, but ask for help if you need it. Yes. Alright, well, I love you guys. I hope that you found this helpful. I'm sure we will have many more like
00:50:04
Speaker
conversations about this because I feel like there's still things we didn't get into like regressions like really like what are those when do they happen how to handle that we're going to do lots of episodes on sleep because like I said in the beginning of this episode like this is a never ending like yeah thanks for letting me let me dump on my so on the sleep thing so thanks guys I mean I'm so happy you shared that's going to help a lot of moms feel less alone because I know the newborn days they do be feeling like that they do that I've already forgotten it I know. This too shall pass. It's all fleeting. Silly me again. That was so dramatic. Oh, gosh. No, you're not dramatic. That was a very normal response, honestly. No, no, no, no. That was honestly scary. I'm glad that I talked to somebody. so Yeah, yeah.
00:50:53
Speaker
All right, well, love you guys. I hope your baby sleeps tonight. Love you and sweet dreams. Sweet, sweet dreams, my girls. Thank you so much for being a part of our mom group chat. New episodes drop every Tuesday. And don't forget, the group chat is blowing up on our Instagram page. So make sure you're following along over there. All right, gotta go. My toddler just put something in her mouth.