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Q&A with the Artpop Tarts
108 Plays4 years ago
What better way to celebrate our 20th episode of Artpop Talk than to hear from the Artpop Tarts! This week we are answering listener art and pop questions- from art theft, to nudity, to pop culture in art classes and MORE! Listen for special tips on how to tastefully put your nudes on the internet.
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Transcript
Labor Day Weekend and Pop Culture Catch-up
00:00:33
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Gianna. And I'm Bianca. How you doing? Good. It's been a minute. Oh my gosh. It feels like forever ago since we talked. I hope everyone is doing well. I hope everyone was able to have a nice three-day weekend for Labor Day. Hope you got a nice break from us also talking at you.
00:01:02
Speaker
giving you homework all the time. How are you doing? Good. I was able to hang out with Juliana this past weekend. We had a lot of fun. It was so nice to see her. And she was actually telling me that I need to rewatch Sister Sister because they just put it on Netflix.
00:01:24
Speaker
And she was telling me in the car that there's an episode where they go to a museum. And she said it's like the funniest thing. And Mr. Mosby from Suite Like of Zack and Cody is like young. And he's the teacher that takes Tia and Tamara to an art museum. So I'm really excited. I need to watch it. And then I'll report back. Juliana said there's like this hilarious gift that comes from
00:01:47
Speaker
this episode where they like trash an art museum intro a sant yeah me and thieben watch the first episode of it i need to watch yeah well you know you have time it'll be there for a while thank god i'm still stuck in the queue and i have endless amounts of time to watch sister of sister
00:02:09
Speaker
Yep, yep.
Art and Identity: Modeling and Recognition
00:02:11
Speaker
So how are you? I am good. You know, it's been a crazy couple of weeks here, but I'm just happy to be back. And, you know, I hope everyone is well rested and also ready to be back and just getting ready for some art and pop content, you know, because that's what we do. Totally.
00:02:33
Speaker
So we have a funny story to tell of the little art Pop-Tarts. I'm dead. I'm excited about. So I was hanging out with my boyfriend on Labor Day weekend.
00:02:49
Speaker
And I was scrolling through Facebook, Gianna and I both have a friend that we went to school with her name is Jen. And she's an artist, she's a printmaker. And so I'm scrolling through and I'm like looking at this and one of her works came up on my feed. And my boyfriend is like,
00:03:09
Speaker
season he's like oh that's really cool and I was like yeah it's my friend Jen like she does like such cool stuff she works a lot with the human body like it's so cool and he's like oh yeah yeah yeah and so then we just you know we kind of like move on and go about her day
00:03:25
Speaker
And then later on, I was talking to Gianna on the phone, and she was like, oh, by the way, did you see Jen's print that she posted online? I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, actually, I did see it better earlier today. And then Gianna was like, yeah, yeah, that's me.
00:03:46
Speaker
And to give Gianna maybe some context on like what what you is What what I is Yeah, so like Bianca said Jen works with the Human Forum and when we were in school she I asked her to model for me for one of my Sculptures and she was like, oh, yeah cool. Maybe we could do a modeling trade and I was like, yeah, absolutely. That's awesome and
00:04:16
Speaker
It actually worked out great because I was looking for someone to model for because I wanted to be able to experience what I'm asking other people to experience. So she does print, but it's a very, you know, process-based and sculptural process. She does these skin printing or body printing. So essentially what we did was she put
00:04:43
Speaker
ink and rolled it all over my body and then I laid down so like I was the printing block and I pressed down on this piece of mylar which is kind of like plastic and she creates these kind of body scanned images and then those kind of work as the foundation of her art. You're like a little nakey stamp.
00:05:07
Speaker
I'm a little nakie stamp. I liked it. It was super cool. It was super fun. So it was so amazing. And so I was just scrolling through Instagram the other day like I do. And then I just stopped and was like, oh, that body looks familiar. It's because it's me.
00:05:26
Speaker
They're just so funny because I'm familiar with Jen's work and I know that you had modeled for her, but I never saw, of course, I hadn't seen what that might look like or what any of the final product was and so she pricked through this. I was like, oh, this is stunning. This is so beautiful.
00:05:42
Speaker
Andrew's sitting there with me and he's like, oh yeah, this is cool and neither of us have a clue that it's Gianna naked. I'm dead. Oh my god, that's the best. You know, that's just what happens when you're in the art world. When you're involved with artists, someone's bound to get naked. Yeah. You take nude images of yourself and you put them on the internet.
00:06:11
Speaker
advice from, you know, Myra Rose. Hi, I'm Myra Rose. Well, anyways, I'm glad that you liked it. And it was beautiful. I, you know, haven't been able to meet Andrew yet. But you know, we already have a good icebreaker to talk about.
Controversy at the Whitney Museum
00:06:34
Speaker
So Bianca, do we have any art news for today?
00:06:39
Speaker
Yes, we've got a little interesting art news for you all. You may have heard it by now, since this was announced on August 25th, C in Black launched a fundraiser to sell prints by black photographers. So C in Black is a collective of black photographers organized to dismantle white oppression. And according to the group's mission statement,
00:07:03
Speaker
It sells works to support causes that align with our vision of the black prosperity. Quote, we stand in solidarity with our greater black family to take immediate action for the improvement of black lives. End quote. The goal was to highlight the black experience through a variety of lenses. Prints were sold for a hundred dollars each.
00:07:28
Speaker
with the proceeds going to nonprofits working towards black advancement. So over the course of this two-week sale from the Collective C in Black, the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York bought an undisclosed number of these prints from the Collective. So then in late August, the Museum informed the photographers whose work
00:07:54
Speaker
it acquired that their prints would be featured in an upcoming September exhibition. This was found through a screenshot that was posted by a photographer on social media. So he posted this and was talking about this on Twitter. The email noted that quote, in recognition of the photographer's work, they'd also get an artist lifetime pass for the museum. The email did not mention any additional compensation for the artist. So basically,
00:08:24
Speaker
The artists were informed that their work was going up in this exhibition, and what they would receive in return was a free entrance for them and a guest to the Whitney Museum. Oh my gosh. So once the controversy started spreading through social media, the group C in Black responded with a statement that read, here's part of it.
00:08:45
Speaker
The Whitney's use of the work acquired through the See in Black print sale at significantly discounted prices, the proceeds of which were donated 100% to those charities, constitutes unauthorized use of the works to which the artist did not consent and for which the artists were not compensated. See in Black is not affiliated with the Whitney's exhibition. So I first heard about this
00:09:14
Speaker
on Instagram coming from the Gorilla Girls, and then they tagged C in Black. And then I looked at C in Black's Instagram page and saw their announcement. There was a writer who tweeted, quote, I can't believe how evil it is for the Whitney to quote unquote, acquire movement art, priced with intent for the community to use for fundraising and flyering, end quote.
00:09:39
Speaker
She continued that it's extra to turn around and parrot social justice language in a show that accomplishes precisely what it positions itself to be against. Then when these emails were released and the artists were talking about it and our critics were tweeting about it, the Whitney announced that the show collective actions would be canceled. Then the Whitney released a statement on their Instagram and the curator of the show said,
00:10:09
Speaker
My sincere hope in collecting them, these works, was to build on a historical record of how artists directly engage the important issues of their time. Going forward we will study and consider further how we can better collect and exhibit artworks and related material that are made and distributed through these channels.
00:10:30
Speaker
I understand how projects in the past several months have had special resonance and I sincerely want to extend my apologies for any pain that the exhibition has caused. So, Gianna, I was kind of curious if you heard about this anywhere else and I'm curious what you think of this as an artist. I mean, how would you feel if a major museum like the Whitney Museum bought your work in a way
00:10:55
Speaker
that you received no compensation, it was for a discounted price that was supposed to go to charity, and then simply offered you a free pass to visit the museum.
Artists' Compensation and Museum Practices
00:11:06
Speaker
Well, it's a huge free- But for you and a guest, so I don't know. Yeah, oh right, yeah, my plus one, because I'm just dragging everyone to the museum with me all the time. Because you have to, you obviously live in New York, so
00:11:19
Speaker
Oh, right. Yes. No, this is a huge, huge slap in the face. Aside from this issue, there would be no museum today if it wasn't for the maker, if it wasn't for the artist. And this is where we run into such issues because your whole institution relies
00:11:44
Speaker
on the ability for other people to make and produce work and for you to keep up with current trends. These are contemporary artists that we're talking about and it's just a huge slap in the face for you to turn around and do whatever you want with their work without any kind of discussion.
00:12:03
Speaker
And especially considering the content of this exhibition, this is what we're talking about, this elitism and going against what this organization stands for. I mean, not even to have any kind of discussion about it, but just to go along with their plans and then be like, by the way, here's a pass for you. Right, right. Yeah.
00:12:28
Speaker
The Whitney seems to be kind of always at the center of things like this. And I wasn't surprised that the first place I saw it was from the Gorilla Girls. And rightly so. I mean, the Gorilla Girls are kind of always calling out the Whitney, but why are they always calling out the Whitney? I mean, yeah, it's such a disappointment. And it just feeds into that.
00:12:53
Speaker
elitism a thousand percent and that and and it's also museums who are clearly dictating the the value of art and decreasing that kind of accessibility because see in black is one offering
00:13:12
Speaker
the proceeds of this sale going to charities for black advancement. And then they're making art accessible and these artists are trying to make black art more accessible. And it just seems very, very strange that the Whitney isn't even trying to access the artists in any way.
00:13:36
Speaker
Right again because in light of this content and in light of this exhibition you have an incredible incredible tool Which is not only the work but the platform that the artist has and the platform that the museum has if you have this common goal you should be able to invite the other party in on that conversation so you can reach your common goal together and
00:13:59
Speaker
Like if you have the artist that you can reach out to and if this is something you really want to do, then that's where you should always start. See how willing the artist is to be included and what you're trying to do. I just think that's a good rule of thumb.
Nudity in Art: Perception and Education
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, this is, it all seems very, also very weird because there were only a few channels that I'm kind of tuned into who were talking about this. And I saw the post from the Whitney and it's still up on their Instagram, but it didn't seem like there was like a ton of buzz coming from my circles about this. It was very rooted in kind of activist art groups like the Grilla Girls.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, same for me here. I really think that Gorilla Girls just need to make some prints or make a post that just says really again, like we have to call you out on your BS again. That's like all I want is to be a Gorilla Girl. Yeah. That's my dream job. Yeah, yeah. Ugh, Gorilla Girls, if you're listening, love you so much. Who do you think's in the Gorilla Girls now? I think about that all the time. Like I just lay in bed and I think about... I know, it's so cool.
00:15:14
Speaker
I have no clue. Well, everyone today is very exciting because if you haven't already heard, which like you totally have because you totally follow us on Instagram and all of our different channels and. Obviously, obviously. It is our 20th episode. So today's art pop talk.
00:15:44
Speaker
That is a Q&A session with all of the amazing art pop tarts. I can't believe it's been five months since we started our pop talk. Five months of APT and five months in the queue. And we thought what a better way to celebrate than getting to know all of you a little bit better. This is something that's really important for Gianna and I.
00:16:09
Speaker
It's difficult to feel like we can have productive conversations with all of you all the time when Gianna are the ones kind of sitting here and having this conversation with each other, but we really, really value all of you. And so we wanted to see what your interests are. And through those questions, see how this community of cuties are thinking about arts and popular culture.
00:16:33
Speaker
So our first question is from Clara. Gianna, would you like to read it for everybody? Ooh, I would love to. This is a great question to start out with. So she really set the bar high, guys. All right, so I've been around the arts my entire life. And something I realized from an early age is that not everyone is comfortable with the nude imagery.
00:16:58
Speaker
I often forget that the nude body, no matter how tasteful it seems to be, can be interpreted as shocking, raunchy, or even pornographic simply because of its mere nakedness. Do you have any interesting experience of nudity in art being completely misinterpreted? Not every piece of art will be or has to be liked, but
00:17:21
Speaker
What would you say to folks who argue that nudity automatically equals a piece of art to be pornography? Is it at all harmful to the arts? That work is interpreted this way, or is it more of a to each their own kind of thing? Interested to hear your thoughts? Love, APT, and love you.
00:17:42
Speaker
We love you, Clara. We do, we do. This is a fantastic question. We already started this episode talking about my tasteful nudes out in the world. And she was naked. And she was naked.
00:18:02
Speaker
As many of you know, my latest sculptural work dealt with the new body and I have had many conversations about the lines between objectification, sexuality, nudity, and pornography. So taking this question, does nudity automatically within the art mean pornography? So my answer is definitely a thousand times no, it absolutely does not.
00:18:29
Speaker
But what we also have to take into consideration in regards to this question is that we have been able to have many discussions with people, me and Bianca both, inside and outside of the art world. And nudity in art, at least in my experience, only seems to be a bigger issue when we are talking about contemporary works.
00:18:53
Speaker
especially especially especially in the context of a museum setting, which I know Bianca would probably love to talk about here in a hot minute. But nudity doesn't seem to be an issue to audiences when looking at traditional
00:19:09
Speaker
or classical or historic works of art or objects as often. There are a lot of meanings as to why this is an issue in the contemporary art world. One being that sexuality and the human body are both complex and they're both fluid and we don't have a social and educational system that always validates that notion.
00:19:31
Speaker
If we look back in history, sexually explicit images can be found aside from other nude images. So it's kind of, you know, hypocritical of us to have this view of contemporary art and not traditional art. Taking ancient Greek and Rome, for example, nude statues and images exist because of the fascination they had with idealizing and perfecting the body.
00:19:57
Speaker
Aside from that idealization, explicit images exist for the sake of being erotic imagery. And yet, you visit a museum and you won't always see a sign that says, you know, warning nudity or
00:20:13
Speaker
whatever in ancient Greek wing, but you will find it when you walk into some contemporary exhibitions or a lot of times feminist wings at museums. Taking another example, there are these Greek red figure vases that I studied while I was in college and they have these erotic images on them. We know that they were used at these symposiums and
00:20:40
Speaker
we do know that wine and drinking and prostitutes were also a part of these symposium gatherings. So these wine cups and these vases were there just really to set the tone for the night. It's interesting what we have in my experience. It seems to be more of a hot button issue with contemporary works than it does in traditional art, I think.
00:21:05
Speaker
both in the museum setting, also in the classroom setting. I've experienced that as well and I've experienced it within my own art and having critiques in classes. Not everyone in my classes was comfortable talking to me about my artwork, not because they thought it was pornographic, but because I was talking about a feminist topic and I was using a naked female body to do so.
00:21:34
Speaker
I love this question because I do think that there's a certain element to Claire's point about to each their own. And I think for me, I mean, I've modeled for Eugene, I've modeled for a few other artists and sometimes it's hard even for me to confront something like that because I'm not always comfortable with my own body. So sometimes this, the issue of nudity
00:22:00
Speaker
is also very personal and it relates to how we feel about art on a personal level because of those personal experiences and often how we feel about ourselves, right? And of course, this can absolutely lead into body positivity for both men and women, obviously. But on a larger scale, why is it that when men make art, men for a long time being the only group of people allowed
00:22:29
Speaker
to study and make art from nude models is nudity acceptable. So this is exactly what you're saying, Gianna.
00:22:39
Speaker
But when women make art showcasing naked bodies, it's explicit and it is censored. And this is something discussed in Linda Nocklin's iconic, why have there been no great women artists essay from 1971. So if you haven't read this, it is a fundamental and critical publication to how we think about women artists and the introduction of feminist art history. And in it.
00:23:05
Speaker
Nachlan talks about how women originally weren't allowed to study the nude, which deterred their access to the study, exhibition, and acquisition of their art, of women's art.
00:23:16
Speaker
So I've studied this a lot in my research and particularly in the final chapter of my thesis. It's about the exhibition of feminist art and how museums censor it. And Judy Chicago has also talked about this. We may have talked about this a little bit in our second episode on the dinner party, but Judy Chicago has come out today and been like, have you seen what's on Instagram?
00:23:40
Speaker
Like, my work is not pornographic. So when I was at the Brooklyn Museum, which is the only space in the country constantly dedicated to the showcasing of feminist art, there's a warning before you enter this space that it contains explicit content.
00:23:59
Speaker
So part of combating social inequalities is also combating an aversion to women exhibiting their own bodies. Now I've also seen cases in museums where parents physically shielded their child's eyes. For example, there's a Robert Rauschenberg Venus, which was exhibited at a museum I worked at, which is essentially a pop art version of Botticelli's Birth of Venus.
00:24:26
Speaker
A parent literally took their child, covered their eyes and pushed them away and laughed and didn't want them seeing it. And it's not my child. It's, you know, I'm not a parent. I have personal beliefs about this, but at some point, like you can't dictate.
00:24:46
Speaker
how other people feel about that, especially when it comes to kids. But back to feminist art, I've also worked on feminist art shows where we were required to put warning signs outside of the exhibition for fear that
00:25:01
Speaker
parents wouldn't want to bring their kids or they would be offended when they got into the show and their kids were there. So I think that this question is really best answered as a call to education. Now I understand that there's explanations and didactics that are helpful to contextualize artworks and in no way am I suggesting that trigger warnings aren't needed.
00:25:23
Speaker
for exhibitions, not at all, but they're extremely important. But in my experiences, an aversion to nudity and art have almost always been towards women's bodies, which seems to be a fear of women's sexuality and women's independence. So instead of warning people about
00:25:44
Speaker
women's freedom before you enter a space, you know, let's not do that and simply accept what's perfectly normal and natural. Yes. But again, to Clara's point, I mean, there is a certain element of to each their own. And that's okay, because that's, that's what art is. And we want people to feel comfortable, right with this, but but that additionally comes with
00:26:08
Speaker
with education as well. I agree because right just as you said to each their own that isn't just excluded in this conversation about nudity that goes for whatever space you're in whatever museum where you're in gallery however you're experiencing artwork you are entitled to your feelings and opinion about it but yeah it's those signs that say warning
00:26:36
Speaker
already give people a perspective about the space they're about to enter before they have even experienced it. Right, it's a preconceived notion that what they're going to see should be warned against.
00:26:51
Speaker
All righty, so thank you, Clara, for that question. Up next, we have a question from Jewel. What is the worst thing you've ever seen someone do in a museum?
Respectful Engagement with Art
00:27:05
Speaker
This is so great. Buckle up. One time I was working at an exhibition on interior design and we had
00:27:14
Speaker
an amazing piece of furniture on display in the gallery. So we had this family come in and they had children and you see this kid like enter the museum doors and he just went straight for the display of furniture. And he jumped, he jumped and landed right on top of the furniture in the middle of the gallery.
00:27:39
Speaker
It's just, when you see it so, like he was so quick. It was like we couldn't have actually done anything to like intercede. He just went straight for it. And then I think about this all the time. It gives me nightmares, honestly. When I was in Florence, I was at the Academia Gallery where the statue of David is. And there's this room full of busts in the gallery.
00:28:08
Speaker
And these are, okay, these are like actual busts, like actual pieces of Renaissance and Greco-Roman sculpture. Like they're not like replicas that you're just allowed to touch, right? My heart is like beating in my chest. They are like fully art objects. They're not, it just, I don't even understand what would prompt someone to do this. But I saw this white man, of course, was a white guy. Sure.
00:28:36
Speaker
he took off his sunglasses put the sunglasses on one of the busts put his arm around the bust
00:28:47
Speaker
and then posed for a photo with it. So this guy's sunglasses are on this, this bust in the hall next to the statue of David and he's just posing like a loser with like, this bust wearing his glasses and I'm just witnessing this like, Bianca, I you've never told me that story before.
00:29:10
Speaker
I've never told you that story before. No, my heart is beating so fast right now. It's not good to touch that and put your arm around it, but the fact that some guy had the audacity to put his clothing on an art object and then pose for a picture with it
00:29:33
Speaker
Where is that picture? Did you post this picture anywhere? And then second of all, this, I don't know how to describe it. Maybe I can find a photo of the hall, but I will never forget. It's just like bust after bust after bust on these like shelves. And in my mind, with his arm around it, I'm picturing the entire wall of bust
00:29:54
Speaker
just like crumbling to the ground. And I mean, he didn't know how secure that are, you know, like you don't, you don't touch it, first of all, but God forbid something would have happened to it like his with his arm around it, he could have knocked it off the shelf like, oh my god, it's that's, that's maybe the craziest thing I've seen at a museum.
00:30:14
Speaker
It's the sunglasses for me. Like, you gotta be shitting me. It's the sunglasses. It wasn't even like it. So, you know, with sunglasses, you have to use like both your hands to set it on the face of the sculpture. It's not like a scarf where you could just like drape it over. This is like fully, fully like facial grabbing.
00:30:38
Speaker
Oh my god, it was terrible. It was so terrible. And I also met Seth Rogen that day. And so I was just like feeling so cool because I had talked to Seth Rogen.
Museum Challenges: Overcrowding and Heists
00:30:48
Speaker
And then we saw Seth Rogen waiting in line to see the statue of David. And then I see this other guy like putting so I was like, where am I? Like, is this a movie? Jesus, man. Am I on the radio?
00:31:03
Speaker
Am I on the radio? Oh, man. Damn. Yep, that's a good one. Oof, oof, oof, oof. For me, me and Theban were in New York for a little bit. And we were, you know, I dedicated a day in our itinerary to go museum hopping, of course, you know.
00:31:27
Speaker
The MoMA has a day of the month or the week, I'm not exactly sure, but essentially they have a slot to where it's free admission for people to come to the museum, which is great.
00:31:42
Speaker
We got to the museum a little bit early before this was about to start and the woman who we were talking to at the ticket booth was saying that oh just to let you know in like two to three hours we're gonna have like that's why you are seeing all these people lined up outside the building because they're waiting to get in for free.
00:32:02
Speaker
So if you want to pay now and beat the crowd, you can totally do that. And I'm like, yeah, for sure. Let's do that. And with us being both students at the time, you know, having a student discount, you know, it's a pretty affordable admission. So, yeah, you know, we went to go do it. You know, I had been to the moment before, so I wasn't.
00:32:18
Speaker
totally worried about needing to see everything mm-hmm so we were just kind of taking our time and losing track of time and then all of a sudden this sea of people starts flooding in to the gallery spaces and I'm sure I'm sure the MoMA knows what their capacity is knows how many people are allowed in the space but damn
00:32:46
Speaker
I would recommend as a viewer and participant of the MoMA as a patron, you should lower that number.
00:32:57
Speaker
It was a fucking madhouse. Everyone trying to, I will never forget, this is why every time I think about The Starry Night, that freaking painting, I think about all these people huddled around this one painting because it's The Starry Night, and everyone trying to take pictures of it, also using flash on their phone. And that wasn't even the worst part. I'm so used to people using flash in a museum space.
00:33:25
Speaker
Anytime I see a person do that in a not so chaotic sense, I always say in a very polite way, hey, just to let you know, this is why flash isn't good for these artworks. So when you're taking other pictures, just turn your flash off. I think that's a really appropriate thing to do.
00:33:43
Speaker
of the worst anxiety I had in that moment was seeing these sculptures in the middle of spaces and again, Bianca, a bunch of white dudes leaning on the pedestals where these freestanding sculptures are placed.
00:34:03
Speaker
I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing? You are two seconds away from knocking that over because not all of them are in glass cases and they're on these very tall pedestals and I Had to get the fuck out of there man. I was like if something goes down I'm not gonna be a part of this like my name will not be written in that history Like I gotta get out of here. So like I said, I'm sure
00:34:30
Speaker
The MoMA is used to this. They do it all the time. I'm sure they know what their capacity is. And I think it's great that they offer free admission to the public. Absolutely wonderful. But please, for the love of God, lower that number because that was not only unsafe for me. It did it. I just it wasn't an enjoyable experience for everybody. For anybody, it felt like people just trying to take their pictures of
00:34:57
Speaker
you know, the well-known pieces of art and then just getting out of there. And really, really detrimental to the safety and the care of the artworks is the most anxiety I think I've ever had in my life. Yeah. Yeah. I grabbed Theban. I'm like, we are piecing out. Bye. Bye. Yeah, that was a rough one.
00:35:20
Speaker
So we have a voice recorded message from Cindy and we're gonna play her question now. Hi Bianca and Gianna, this is Cindy. I have a question about something y'all haven't talked too much about yet and that's art theft. I know art heists are such a popular theme in movies and other entertainment media. I was wondering if you all have any insight from your careers in the art world about interesting art theft stories.
00:35:46
Speaker
I know there's a lot of stolen art of the world that's still missing. Is there a specific piece you wish could be found and returned over all others? Thank you, girls. Okay. Oh my gosh. Thank you, Cindy. This is such a good question. I love this question. I love art history drama, and I just don't understand why Hollywood doesn't make every movie about some art heist.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean that's basically all I want to see. So when I listen to this question, actually the first thing that comes to my mind is the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, which is an art museum in Boston. It is originally the home of Isabella Stewart Gardner, whose will called for her art collection to be permanently exhibited for the education and enjoyment of the public forever. Thanks Isabella.
00:36:41
Speaker
So on March 18th, 1990, 13 works of art were stolen from the museum in Boston. Guards admitted two men who were posing as police officers responding to a disturbance call.
00:36:57
Speaker
and the thieves then tied up the guards and looted the museum over the next hour. The FBI has valued the hall at $500 million and no arrests have ever been made and no works have been recovered. So to this day I was on the Isabella Stewart Gardner
00:37:19
Speaker
museum website and they are still offering a $10 million reward for information leading to the arts recovery, which is the largest bounty ever offered by a private institution. The stolen works were originally procured by Stuart Gardner and intended for permanent display at the museum
00:37:42
Speaker
amongst the rest of the collection. So within these stolen works amongst them was the concert, which is one of only 34 paintings by Vermeer. If you're familiar with Vermeer's work, he's an incredibly famous artist, but produced a very, very little amount of art. So any pieces that we do have are really, really valuable.
00:38:07
Speaker
And this is thought to be the most valuable, unrecovered painting in the world. Also missing is a piece by Rembrandt, which was Rembrandt's only seascape. There were other paintings and sketches by Rembrandt, Degas, Monet, and they were stolen with some other objects. There was an eagle, and then there was also a Chinese ritual vase that was stolen as well.
00:38:33
Speaker
experts on this case are kind of puzzled by the choice of artwork since apparently there are more valuable works that were left untouched and I actually am really looking forward to visiting the Stewart Gardner Museum. I have never been there before but I really want to make a trip up to Boston and see this because within the museum today the layout of the collection has been left
00:38:58
Speaker
untouched. So this this layout is permanent, and the frames are still hanging empty, which with the loss of the salon work. So
00:39:09
Speaker
There are still placeholders for the artwork's return. So if anyone is interested, there is a documentary on this called Stolen. I believe it's from 2006, so it might be a little dated, but I was watching the trailer. I mean, I would watch it. And then on Apple Podcast, there is an NPR podcast about this called Last Scene.
00:39:34
Speaker
Wow. So there you go. There you go. The more you know. That's insane. Art thievery is interesting to me because you have these very historic objects. It would be hard to sell them to a person because it's not like that person could display them in a very public matter in their home. So to me, it's like what would even be the point. The dark web. The black market. Oh, God.
00:40:02
Speaker
Make a good chunk of change on that. Next on Art Pop Talk, we dive into the dark web and the freaking art market. We solve art thefts here. Ooh, we can start like a true crime art history podcast. Yo. Oh, no, I love this question. One, because it's a good crossover reference between art and pop culture in movies.
00:40:26
Speaker
I would say the interesting thing about the art world is that you don't hear of many stories where this is a literal art heist in a cinematic sense, other than that crazy story Bianca just said. But what you do have are opposing opinions for why museums should turn over certain works or objects to other museums based on how they were originally obtained at that time.
00:40:55
Speaker
Even if how they were obtained and transported at the time was perfectly legal, it doesn't always mean that that is right or an appropriate place for those objects to be housed and reevaluation needs to happen. So a good example of this dispute
00:41:15
Speaker
like this are between the British Museum of Art and the Acropolis Museum, and really the Greek government, actually. The British Museum has in their collection what has been referred to as the Elgin Marbles. The Elgin Marbles are the original architectural decorations for the Temple of Athena at the Acropolis, which
00:41:37
Speaker
is known as the Parthenon. If you picture the top of a classic temple and imagine that long wide isosceles triangle at the top, that is called the pediment. And around in that area is where these sculptural decorations originally lived.
00:41:57
Speaker
And the British Museum has some from the pediment, the frieze, and the metopes, which is really a really, really big deal. They have some of the panthenetic procession, which is incredible. But they obtained these objects because in the early 19th century, the Ottoman Empire was the governing authority in Athens at the time.
00:42:20
Speaker
So the Parthenon has a complex history first built as a temple, of course, then used as a church and then as a mosque and now as just a historical site. And I believe at one point it was even used as a military base or used by some military forces at one time. So this dude, Lord Elgin, was a British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire and was granted permission to remove almost half of the remaining sculptures.
00:42:49
Speaker
So all of the Elgin pieces of the collection was transported back to Britain. And again, this was in the early 1800s. So according to the British Museum of Art, which this is correct factual information, his actions were investigated during this time and were found to be entirely legal prior to the sculptures entering the collection at the British Museum of Art.
00:43:17
Speaker
This information is really everywhere. I studied at this dispute in college, but this synopsis came directly from the British Museum of Arts website where they're very transparent about this history and the status of their collection and their status between them and the Greek government and the conversations they have had. And their position on this topic
00:43:44
Speaker
was that it was legal in the 1800s, it was investigated before it came to our collection, and therefore we are not giving them up. And to the perspective of the Greek government and the
00:44:00
Speaker
Museum at the Acropolis, they say that for those reasons and the fact that at that time Greece was under Ottoman rule, that reevaluation needs to be taken into consideration. And at the museum, almost like in Bianca's story, they have empty placeholders for when those pieces are finally returned back to their original site.
00:44:24
Speaker
Right. So I have been to Athens and I've been to the Acropolis and the Acropolis Museum. And first of all, it's just, it's stunning. The museum is so beautiful and it's actually a relatively new museum. So part of these discussions was also the position of the British Museum was that there was concern that these objects wouldn't be taken care of in Greece. So then
00:44:52
Speaker
Greece built this entirely new amazing facility
00:44:59
Speaker
to house and take care of all of these objects. But of course, like the Parthenon is still standing. And lest we not forget that they are taking care of it, like it is the Parthenon itself is also under constant kind of care. And even when I went there with scaffolding up and things like that. But it's it's really fascinating to go into the space of the there's basically a large room
00:45:25
Speaker
with a makeshift kind of temple that replaces the Parthenon. And you can see, you know, the frieze and where the pediment would be. And there are these big just, I mean, massive empty squares where pieces of the frieze would go. And they have like a big pedestal on the floor where the gorgeous statues of the pediment should be. So it's really fascinating to see.
00:45:53
Speaker
Thank you, Cindy, so much for your question. This is great. And Gianna, you know, I was also thinking I was reading about some kind of art heists, like in that classical kind of cinematic sense. And do you think that the Mona Lisa that we see in the Louvre is actually the Mona Lisa conspiracy theory? Yeah, because I think because the Mona Lisa was also stolen in like 1900. It's been stolen a couple times, right?
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of think that the one that's up is not really the real one. Yeah. I think that too. But I also think that, uh, you know, Ryan Reynolds keeps Blake Lively in a box. So what do I know? Totally. Okay. So next we have a question from Kitra. Yay.
Cultural Practices: Rings and Repatriation
00:46:41
Speaker
Hi Gianna and Bianca. My name is Kitra and I was wondering when did people start using wedding rings?
00:46:48
Speaker
and white rings instead of anything else. All right, thank you.
00:46:53
Speaker
All right, so this was a really interesting question and one I didn't really know exactly the answer to, so I had to do some research, which was great, love learning new things here at APT, to find out what were the influences of rings and how that started. So I found an article from Vanity Fair about the history of wedding rings, and I'm going to read off from the first portion of it, which gave a great synopsis.
00:47:22
Speaker
The ancient Egyptians believed in the Vena amoris, literally the vein of love, that runs directly from the heart to the fourth finger on the left hand. Since then, wedding rings have been worn as a sign of the binding pledge between spouses.
00:47:39
Speaker
The endless circle shows the eternal nature of the union with the open center a portal to the unexplored life ahead as a couple. So this sentimental theory is recognized in Western cultures and is the main reason the engagement and wedding ring
00:47:57
Speaker
are worn on the fourth finger, now referred to as the ring finger. In other cultures, however, the ring is worn on the right hand since that is the hand you use for oaths and to take vows. The Greeks and Romans carried on the tradition, but during this era, betrothal rings were made out of leather, bone, or ivory.
00:48:20
Speaker
In early Rome, the use of metal rings began to surpass other materials, but the metal primarily used was iron. Gold and silver rings were given on rare occasions and only by the extremely wealthy. By the time of the Byzantine Empire, most rings began to be personalized and engraved with figures of the betrothed couple.
00:48:42
Speaker
Once Christianity became the empire's official religion, the couple were often depicted with Jesus or a cross between them, you know, to bless their union. So now with the rise of Christianity in a Western sense, we now see the popularity of engagement rings surpassing the idea of wedding rings.
00:49:05
Speaker
I'm going to link this article. I can encourage you all to read the rest of it. It's really short. It talks a little bit about the diamond industry and, you know, how we view now engagement rings and wedding rings in a, you know, in a Western sense. But it's funny that someone asked this question too, because recently I was having a conversation with Phoebe where we were talking about cultural differences of dating, engagements,
00:49:33
Speaker
and wedding or marriage ceremonies and one of his cousins in Malaysia got engaged fairly recently but she didn't have a traditional engagement ceremony and instead was proposed to by her fiancé in a very western matter where he you know where they had a bunch of their friends and family together and he got down on one knee and proposed and
00:49:57
Speaker
And Theven was really taken back with this in a very excited way. But she's the first young person in their family to break away from other traditions that I think are mostly rooted in Hindu tradition. And I think it's wonderful that his cousin got to have the experience she wanted to have. But it also got me thinking of why is the process of engagement in a Western style
00:50:27
Speaker
seen as being so progressive and I think that it has to do with and I think it stems from what our dating culture is like here as well so yeah really interesting and then that was around the time too when we were watching Indian matchmaking on Netflix and we binge watched the whole thing
00:50:50
Speaker
So this is such an interesting question for me because I think I've talked about it a little bit, but I used to work for a wedding planner and so I've
00:50:58
Speaker
not only helped to plan a lot of weddings in Oklahoma, but I've been to so many different types of weddings and I'm consistently fascinated with repetitions and breakages of different kind of cultural norms or wedding etiquette and what defines aesthetics for a wedding and who can wear what and why does it have to be this color and the visuals of a wedding are
00:51:27
Speaker
fascinating to me. So it's always really fun to, to think about that. Thank you so much for your question, Kendra. Next, we have a question from Hannah.
Art History Education: Adapting to Pop Culture
00:51:36
Speaker
Hey, Gianna and Bianca, I know that practically there is some difficult or uncertainty even in relating things of the past to our culture now.
00:51:46
Speaker
However, I think professors do a disservice to themselves, the field, and to students by not showing the relevance of art history for people today, as well as how art history is not just some static, elitist, and monolithic institution, but is a dynamic relationship and always evolving dialogue between art and culture, history, politics, economics, psychology, religion, and pretty much everything else. Hannah, you're totally right.
00:52:13
Speaker
How much more cool would a Renaissance art class be if the professor played Beyonce and Jay-Z's Ape Shit as part of their discussion on the Mona Lisa, or drawing connections between Lady Gaga's meat dress and Soutine's carcass of beef and Damien Hirst's work in modern art class? As someone who wants to be a professor and teach art history and museum studies, I think this conversation is so important to have.
00:52:38
Speaker
So yeah, I love the podcast and being an art pop tart. Oh, I've been listening since week one. How crazy that it's been four months already. And I cannot wait for the next episode. Hana.
00:52:50
Speaker
A little precious art pop-tart. Right. You and us both, girl. I cannot believe it. Thank you so much for your question. This is awesome. And I totally agree that I think academics do their students and museums to their visitors the same reference. A disservice by not making histories relevant and accessible.
00:53:12
Speaker
I think too often pop culture is seen as this kind of fleeting and disingenuous and kind of unworthy of serious study. But obviously we can't ignore the problems with popular culture. It often works in tandem with capitalism, with inequality, with that fake kind of allyship. Pop culture doesn't always necessarily equal
00:53:38
Speaker
progression, right? However, the art world is the same thing. So, i.e. the Whitney, our news we had today, right? So I think that the more we realize that this world and all of our histories and all of our fields of study are
00:53:57
Speaker
complicated and they're tied together and you know what they're all problematic. The better we can learn from it and I think that's so important to realize that we are creatures with histories and we need to teach those histories in a respectful way but we are also people who
00:54:19
Speaker
live and work and study in the moment. And whether we realize it or not, popular culture, visual culture and our surroundings impact how we think and analyze the world. And part of that world is the histories that come from us.
00:54:35
Speaker
Yeah absolutely. I think part of the challenge too that professors are up against is that it's really hard to fill art history classes sometimes or it's hard to get students that are really invested in those classes because a lot of time people are taking them as their gen ed and me and Bianca have been so fortunate to see this opportunity between arts and pop culture because
00:55:04
Speaker
For us, they're one and the same thing. Art is part of pop culture. Art is one of the most incredibly social things that we can be a part of and that we can experience. But by taking art history and then using intersectional approaches from taking our film class, from taking our feminist study classes, and for me especially taking my studio classes,
00:55:26
Speaker
we have that privilege to get information elsewhere besides in the art history classroom. So really, if what we're asking is for this to use this lens and to talk about art in tandem with our contemporary culture and climate, what we're honestly asking for is a rewrite and curriculum. We're asking for added new classes. And also another challenge with that is that we know
00:55:56
Speaker
How vast art history is right because we're talking about the entire world here We're talking about different artists different artists movements and it's already challenging enough to pack all of that information into one class and Most art history classes when you start getting an upper level Even my Renaissance class required that I take prereqs to get to that point so
00:56:21
Speaker
It's going to take a lot to get there, but I think as history expands, which it obviously will, these classes and these curriculums cannot stay the same. Our final question is from Abigail. How has the art world changed because of COVID?
00:56:41
Speaker
And are you seeing any pop culture trends that will be big for 2021?
Art in the COVID Era
00:56:47
Speaker
Abigail, thank you so much. For me, I mean, personally, COVID has just changed a lot of the way my job functions.
00:56:56
Speaker
the way we showcase and discuss art and how we engage with different technologies and kind of use those to poll different audiences. And we've actually found that because we're hosting digital events, it's a way for us to create access to people who aren't necessarily in our regional vicinities, right? So they can
00:57:15
Speaker
come and have these discussions with us virtually, even if they're on the other side of the country. You know, it's forced our museum and a lot of other museums to be more flexible. You know, funding has always been an issue, but now we have to think, how are we going to continue to take care of the artworks as well as the people who care for them?
00:57:37
Speaker
So interestingly, I was talking with some people about the Met reopening and I kind of want to go because in a large museum like the Met, we often have what Gianna was talking about earlier, that overcrowded experience. And there's a struggle to see everything because of crowding. So I think moving forward, our museum experiences and looking at quote unquote famous art might actually become much more intimate. And I wonder if our
00:58:07
Speaker
experience with the museum space is going to become more intimate because we're actually more isolated in the museum. So in terms of trends, you know, I really hope that we see exhibitions and works produced about COVID. I would imagine that themes of kind of displacement and isolation will be big. I mean, after 2016, we had
00:58:31
Speaker
exhibitions that were all about the election and politics and social movements that went up, you know, pretty quickly after 2016. But at the same time, I don't know, because it seems like everything is changing on a daily basis. And I don't know what will be, or I don't know where we'll be in 2021. But I do wonder if mask fashion might be something that the Met tackles for a Met gala.
00:59:01
Speaker
exhibition. I would be really fascinating to see what
00:59:07
Speaker
what fashion in art museums is like how that is related to COVID and how that becomes a trend in the art world. Yeah, masks have become a trend in the art world. There are already artists out there that have been using ideas of like masquerading and masks and wearable sculpture. And their art has really been highlighted during this time.
00:59:32
Speaker
And I have seen a lot of people in just my circle and my community participate in online exhibitions and competitions where they have made art-based creative masks. And I was talking to a girlfriend of mine who's in the fashion industry and just graduated in fashion and merchandising and marketing.
00:59:56
Speaker
She was talking about how hard it is in this country to get people to wear masks, but how it's so interesting when we look at other countries, how they wear masks on a daily basis because of the air pollution there.
01:00:10
Speaker
but it's interesting how masks are already incorporated in Eastern fashion and high fashion, elevated fashion. So I think it will be interesting to see what happens there with the crossover between arts and fashion and consumption here. As far as how the art world has changed because of COVID,
01:00:32
Speaker
online or virtual exhibitions have been a thing for a while now, but for the sake of social distancing and for safety reasons, I've seen virtual exhibitions also be heightened during this time. I participated in one while I was just graduating. I think I hadn't even graduated yet. So those have become a lot more apparent.
01:00:58
Speaker
It's a great way, anything, any way to get your art out is always a great thing to do, but they're not as always revered as, or looked at as important as literal physical exhibitions.
01:01:16
Speaker
yeah well thank you guys so much this was fun as always jana thank you for doing 20 episodes of this with me 20 freaking episodes man yeah we lived to see the day truly we made it get ready for 200 oh god
01:01:36
Speaker
You can always send in questions to us and we will be more than happy to answer
Milestone Celebration and Audience Interaction
01:01:41
Speaker
them. We will get in contact with you if you've been selected to receive some APT and Discordia merch. And we hope to be talking with one of you soon on the podcast. So thank you guys so, so much for being amazing listeners. And with that, I think Gianna will talk to you all on Tuesday. Bye everyone. Bye.
01:02:36
Speaker
you