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Straight Men Do You Like Women? (1-11)
55 Plays8 months ago
In this provocative episode of "Fun With Sex," we delve into a compelling question: Do straight men truly like women, or do they merely view them as sexual objects? We explore the challenging reality that many straight men struggle to form genuine, platonic friendships with women, and we examine the societal norms that contribute to this disconnect.
Join us as we discuss how traditional masculinity acts as a cage, preventing men from embracing interests considered "feminine"—interests that could actually help them bond more deeply with women. We'll look at the irony of straight men seeking advice from homosocial environments, like far-right podcasts, on how to communicate with women, only to find themselves in spaces where women voices are absent.
Through candid conversations and expert insights, we reveal how breaking free from restrictive gender roles can open up new possibilities for meaningful connections. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the dynamics of modern masculinity, the pitfalls of gendered communication, and the potential for deeper, more authentic relationships between men and women. Tune in and join the conversation!
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Transcript
Introduction: Do Straight Men Like Women?
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, this is the Fun with Sax podcast and today we're recording an episode that may sound kind of clickbaity, but I think that it's a honest question. The conversation that we're having is, do straight men like women? And I think the obvious answer is like, oh, of course straight men like women because that's what makes them straight.
Exploring Misogyny and Socialization
00:00:23
Speaker
But I think if you ask a lot of women that question, they would have a really different answer. So I'm going to ask you, do you believe that straight men like women? Yeah, I think it's definitely a question with a lot of layers that you can't really answer with yes or no. I think the core of the issue here is there's a lot of not just taught misogyny. I mean, men are taught from a very young age, like,
00:00:53
Speaker
Oh, if you like a girl, you're supposed to bully her in elementary school. And so many men also have an attachment style where they push away people they care about. But even on
00:01:12
Speaker
a more base level scale. There's also just the simple fact that a lot of men really see women as sex objects and you don't really care about a sex object or want to hang out with them too
Objectification and Exclusion of Women
00:01:27
Speaker
much. And I think like that's what I'm getting at is that I think men are attracted to women. I don't think men like women. And I think that those are two vastly different concepts because like when you think of like straight men circles,
00:01:41
Speaker
What are the content that they're consuming? Who are normally their friends? And who are the opinions that they value? A lot of times it's other men.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah. And you hear it. You see it all the time where, you know, to date someone, you don't have to have every single interest via shared interest. That's fine. But there is this level of like, when you get into a relationship, you tend to have some interest in the things your partner's into, just based on the simple fact that your partner's into this, you know?
00:02:17
Speaker
if your partner's like, Oh, I'd love to go to a coffee shop and you don't really drink coffee, you might just be like, okay, sure. Like, you know, I'll grab a snack while we're there or whatever. But you see it all the time with straight men where when you talk to them about like spending quality time with their partner, they're just, yeah, it's just, Oh my
Building Genuine Connections
00:02:39
Speaker
God. Like I have to like,
00:02:42
Speaker
Go run errands with her when like in actuality like I love running errands with my partner like it's a lot less boring than going alone like why wouldn't I want to spend time with them I think that goes back to your point about my objectivity I think the like a lot of men are socializing talk from a young age that
00:03:03
Speaker
women are the objects of their desire, and it's really hard to humanize objects. Because once you start humanizing an object, you can't see it as an object anymore. And I think that's why so many straight guys have problems talking to women in the social world, is that they approach these women and they're trying to recite these
00:03:26
Speaker
game or pickup lines that they learned online because they're like, well, this works with all women because all women are a monolith instead of just approaching women and talking to them as human beings, talk to them, talking to them about their interests. And then, hey, a friendship may develop if there's physical attraction
00:03:44
Speaker
maybe a romance develops, but I'm seeing you and I'm approaching you as a human. And I think a lot of women would appreciate that if guys came up ahead on them and like, hey, what are you into? Or this is what I'm into. Do we have any shared interests instead of just being like, I'm going to do this aggressive flirty thing that I learned online or because like I learned this is how you pick up women as a monolith because they're all objects.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah. And it's often like they lead with some kind of, you know, I think it's totally fine to be like, Hey, like I think you're very beautiful. Would you want to get to know each other? Um, but it's kind of like they lead with this very like aggressive sexual language and there's not really any follow-up of like,
00:04:28
Speaker
Oh, so what are you like, like actually asking questions? Like you hear from women all the time that they go on these first dates with men and they just don't ask them like a single question about themselves.
Valuing Interests Across Genders
00:04:42
Speaker
I mean, I posted a video on the TikTok page about how, excuse me, about how if straight men changed their approach to like talking to women about their interests instead of just like spitting game to them or like trying to use hookup cultural language, they would have like far more
00:04:59
Speaker
success in the dating world and I got a lot of comments like a lot of concerning comments of men saying well women don't have anything that like they're interested in or like a lot of times when I talk to women they're very base level interest and it's like we all have very base level interest
00:05:16
Speaker
I have a lot of like straight guy friends. We talk about sports. We're not talking about like metaphysics or deep philosophical questions. We're talking about like, hey, did you see that touched on the score? Not to mention that statistically women are more educated than men now. So if there's anyone who has
00:05:32
Speaker
a gendered demographic that has deeper thoughts about intellectual issues, it would be women, but it's because men are taught to objectify women in such a way they can't conceive of these objects having deep personal opinions and deep personal thoughts.
00:05:47
Speaker
And I think it's also, you know, the thing is, is that these men are socialized to believe that like women's interests aren't real hobbies and everyone is, it comes from women too. And, but if a woman is into a hobby or interest that's typically male,
00:06:06
Speaker
it's delegimized. It's like, oh, you're into fitness. Oh, she's probably doing those little five pound weights. That's cute. Oh, you're into video games. Oh my God. I'm sure she's so bad. But then if you do have a more feminine interest, like, Oh, I'm into, you know, makeup and beauty. It's like, Oh, that's a cute little thing. That's not really an interest or yeah, I'm into fashion. I go thrifting and
00:06:35
Speaker
I refurbish outfits and I sew and everything. And it's like, oh, that's just like a fun thing she does for fashion. That's not really a hobby. I mean, going off of that, I think like a really interesting conversation is the different society views reality TV show versus sports.
00:06:53
Speaker
But they view reality TV show as this like super surface level content that people watch because primarily women watch it while they view sports as this very in-depth cultural defining thing, which both are both sports are very social surface level. I love sports. I love watching football, basketball, MMA. It's also a very surface level subject that also defines
Engaging in Traditionally Female Activities
00:07:16
Speaker
culture. I also love watching reality TV.
00:07:18
Speaker
Love Island defines culture but keep up with the Kardashians define culture, but I think is because women are interested in it we can't conceive of something that women being interested in being Important and surface level at the same time and we also can't conceive anything that like men are interested in just being simply surface level yeah, and I think like that goes into like another point is that
00:07:43
Speaker
a lot of men would have a lot more success in the dating world or just as like human beings talking to women and forming like genuine platonic or romantic relationships. If they actually took a step and invested into the things that like, or that we've been socialized that women are primarily interested in. Yeah, that's definitely something I've seen like a little bit more of nowadays where like there's some guys that are kind of picking up on the fact of like,
00:08:12
Speaker
Oh, if I watch The Bachelor, I'll have something to talk to like many women about. Or if I know a couple Taylor Swift songs, which, you know, it's funny because you kind of like, I think there are some guys out there that are genuinely like, no, I love Taylor Swift. But I think there's also a lot of guys where it's definitely just a pickup line.
00:08:35
Speaker
But I do think there's some guys too where it's kind of like, I think they had a girlfriend at some point who introduced them to like a more feminine like show or artist or something like that. And then they got really into it, which I think is funny. Unpopular opinion. I think there's a lot of men who disguise their feminine, their genuine feminine interests as them using it to pick up women as a way to protect their idea of masculinity to themselves and to other men.
00:09:05
Speaker
Oh yeah. Like I think there's a lot of guys who are like into things like fashion and like makeup and like reality TV show. Like I had a roommate who was like genuinely very into fashion. And then when you talk to him, he's like, Oh, I do it because women are into it. But then you look at the styles that he looked at and like the research that he did. No, you're just into fashion, but you need an excuse for yourself to protect your own masculinity about why you're into fashion instead of just being like, Hey, I'm a man who's also into like,
00:09:35
Speaker
getting my nails and toes pedicure and getting my face done and taking care of myself. And I think that what you're also saying is true, that there's a lot of men who pretend to be into the things that women are into.
00:09:54
Speaker
not as a way to genuinely form connections with them, but as like, hey, if I know a couple songs or I know a couple of content, I can have an easier time picking up women at bars. And I think that still objectifies them, because it's like, I'm only going to be interested in the things that you're interested in, not because I value you as a person, but because I value you as a sexual object. And this is me using your interest as a means to my sexual aunt. Yeah, I totally agree, because that's something that
00:10:24
Speaker
I feel like I didn't pick up on until getting a little bit deeper into my dating history and then talking to you where it was so confusing because when I would first meet a guy, it would be like, Oh my God, they're into all the things I'm into. Oh my God. They're like super far left like me or
00:10:48
Speaker
something along those lines. And then something would come out like in the breakup or later in the relationship or whatever that like things were exaggerated or they weren't really that into the thing that I thought they were. Um, and it's just like, damn, it's like, okay. So was this all just some kind of ruse, some kind of like elaborate scheme to get me to get you in bed.
Societal Pressures and Emotional Avoidance
00:11:16
Speaker
And I think that like,
00:11:18
Speaker
There's two things going on. I think that like masculinity is a cage in two ways. One, masculinity stops men from being able to explore the issues. I mean, the things that they're like.
00:11:30
Speaker
genuinely into but I also think that like masculinity forces men to like constantly try to evolve and change themselves to pursue women and like the goal of getting laid because I do think that like a symptom of like masculinity that people don't talk about is the pressure to be hypersexual at all times you're always supposed to be trying to get laid anytime that you're going out it can't just be like hey I'm going out dancing with my friends I'm going out to the
00:11:58
Speaker
bars to just have a good time. It's like you're coerced to say, Hey, I'm going there with the intention of picking up women. And I think that like, that's a lot of pressure on men to like, always try to find ways to, this is gonna sound like very redundant, but always trying to find ways to like,
00:12:16
Speaker
have sex and like sexualize women also takes like a lot of toll on men. And I'm not saying that men are the victim in this situation. What I am saying is that gender norms and gender expectations are the patriarchy are very complex. And we all suffer under these expectations. Yeah. And I think there's also it's the combination of
00:12:37
Speaker
the hyper-sexualization and you're only supposed to care about sex when it comes to women. And there's also this socialization to just not have any emotions or feelings. And I feel like that's something that really feeds into the statistic that most avoidant attachment people tend to be the man in the relationship when it's like a male-female relationship.
00:13:04
Speaker
Um, cause it's like, don't get me wrong. Like there are avoidant women, but there's just a very significant amount of avoidant men where Sorry, we had a split second of technical difficulties, but you're talking about avoidant men. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of men where they're so afraid of feeling emotions because they're socialized by society that
00:13:32
Speaker
You're not supposed to have these deep emotions. You're not supposed to be emotional. That's for a woman. So the second they start to develop feelings for a woman, that's deeper than just something sexual. They just run away because they're socialized that they shouldn't have those emotions. Because like, again, masculinity is a cage. And I think that's why
00:13:54
Speaker
the men loneliness and suicide rate is so high is because like a lot of men are socialized not to form deep connections with other men not to form deep connections with other women so they have all these very surface level connections if anything no one knows the emotional struggles and vulnerabilities that they have because they have to constantly keep up this performance of hyper masculinity and like
00:14:19
Speaker
This goes back to, hey, if you genuinely see women as people you can be friends with, as viable options to form platonic relationships that you can like as people, that gives you another 50% of society that you can form relationships with and have friends. And that's a really good answer to the men loneliness crisis. And I think that's also why all these socializations is also why you have this
00:14:49
Speaker
Very common experience where the second a man gets a female friend, it has to be romantic because they're not used to people, they're male friends engaging with them on this deeper and more emotional level. So having this woman in their life who's like,
00:15:13
Speaker
a nice pretty girl you got along well and she actually asks you about shit she's actually like hey how are you like i know you mentioned that this has happened in your life like what happened with that and conversations and checking in on people and connecting on a deeper level a more intimate level is just so common in female friendship so we don't even
00:15:40
Speaker
That's not strange to us to be asking intimate questions and getting closer emotionally, but
00:15:46
Speaker
For men, it's a rare occurrence. So the second woman does that to them, it's like, oh, this must be something romantic.
Friendships with Women
00:15:53
Speaker
And I think that goes back to the original point of like, do men like women? And I think the reason why a lot of men, when they do find themselves liking women, they jump into like wanting to romantically date them is because men have been socialized to not like women as people, not see them as viable options for platonic friendships. So then they have this cognitive dissonance is like,
00:16:14
Speaker
I like this person and this person is close to me, but like I don't know how to form a relationship with this person and that's not sexual. So I'm going to revert to what comes natural to me and I'm going to see this person as a sexual object and try to date them, which is like something I've heard is like very frustrating for women is that anytime they try to form platonic friendships with men, the men end up trying to fuck them. Yeah. And I think like another topic I want to touch on. I'm glad that we had this conversation, but
00:16:41
Speaker
I think that like you could also see that a lot of straight men aren't into women because of the concept of homosocial environments. Do you know what that word means? No. So homosocial environments, we're going to talk about a lot in like the bi episodes coming up. They're environments where you get a lot of people of the same gender together and it's almost basically exclusively the same gender. And what I've learned is that
00:17:06
Speaker
The more hypermasculine, the more heteronormative and straight an environment is, the more, the more homosocial the environment is, the straighter it becomes. And if you think about like an end you take comment section, they're actively pushing out women, even though they're supposed to be like the straightest man on the planet or any of those like alpha male hypermasculinity places.
00:17:30
Speaker
they despise women as people, but they're also supposed to be like the straightest people who are attracted to women.
Historical and Modern Relationship Contexts
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah. And like, there's some people who go down the rail of like homophobia where they're like, well, all these people are just like secretly queer. And it's like, no, that's not true. Also because when you look at queer man spaces, normally they have better attitudes towards women. Don't get me wrong, gay men can be misogynistic. But like if somebody betted to a hundred dollars and it said, Hey,
00:18:00
Speaker
Do you think that this gay guy has more women friends or do the straight guy has more women friends? Who are you taking in the bed? Yeah, clearly the gay man. Yeah. And I think that like men are put in this place where they can't form platonic friendships with women. They don't see women as humans. They form these homosocial environments of other men.
00:18:23
Speaker
And then they wonder why women don't like them or why they can't like get into dating. So I think that goes back to another copy that I want to talk about is that 1950s relationships weren't this beautiful thing.
00:18:37
Speaker
They didn't have romance. They didn't like, I'm not, I'm talking in a monolith here. Of course, like individual relationships are general, like, but by statistics, they weren't beautiful relationships. The problem was they live in a society where women were economically dependent on men and were basically economic hostages to their husbands. And they were forced to date these guys because
00:19:02
Speaker
societal pressures and economic pressures says that if you're a woman, it's really hard to live single in this society. You need to date a man. These men didn't like women anymore than like men like women today. You could see it with like the abuse rates and like the avoidant fathers and avoidant partners. But because women were economically dependent, they had to depend on these men versus today where we're living in a society where women have more economic and social freedom. The stigma of being a single woman
00:19:31
Speaker
is not there anymore. Also importantly, the stigma of being a queer woman and dating other women is less than it was in 1950s America. And women are opting out to date men, opting out to date men, because men, straight men genuinely don't like them. Yeah. Oh, you don't have anything to add to that? Oh, no.
Challenging Masculinity Norms
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah. So like, that's like, my thing is that masculinity in its way, it's like self
00:19:59
Speaker
defecating, self-defeating, and the fact that you have all these straight guys who are socialized not to like women, but then they also want to date women, but because women aren't economically dependent on them anymore, women are like, hey, you don't see me as a human being, you don't care about the things that I care about, you constantly demean me, you don't value the opinion of other women, you don't have women friendships, so I'm not gonna entertain the idea of dating you,
00:20:28
Speaker
So all these guys run to these homosocial settings where it's all men because they don't have any like conversations and input from women to try to learn how to talk to women. But these are some of the most misogynistic places on the planet. So then they don't learn how to talk to women. And all it does is reproduce their already misogynist and their hatred views towards women. And then they wonder why women aren't dating them anymore. And it's like a self-defeating cycle that like a lot of straight men are into.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah. And then it also just radicalizes them more because they all, it's just an echo chamber and they share fake stories of some woman who stole their friend's money. Yeah. They go from, Hey, I'm here to learn how to talk to women to like, now I'm a misogynist because all women are X, Y, and Z or women, this and that. Then they go to like traditional family values. And the next thing you know, they're like,
00:21:25
Speaker
falling down the alt-right pipeline, when in reality, all you have to do is step outside of your cage of masculinity and just say, hey, I want to learn about the things that you learned about, or hey, I want to be interested in things that are societally deemed more feminine, or hey, I even just want to see women as simply human beings and form genuine connectresses with them. And then you're more likely to form romantic relationships if you have
00:21:52
Speaker
Women platonic friends you have other women in your circle Statistically, you're more likely to meet a woman that like you have romantic feelings for him and who also has romantic feelings for yourself Versus if you're a straight man and you're only running around in homo social environments Where you want to find these women a date? Yeah, I Think that's all I have yeah same for me Well, this has been a short episode of the fun new sex podcast. Thank you for listening in
00:22:21
Speaker
I'm also sorry for the technical difficulties.