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Negotiating Casual Sex (1-17)
92 Plays6 months ago
In this fun and sexy episode of, we explore the many flavors of casual sex and why we need more words to describe them! Casual sex is rarely as emotionless as it's made out to be—most of us crave some level of intimacy, even in our most fleeting connections. We'll dive into how straight, gay, and lesbian cultures navigate these dynamics, and how intimacy can be negotiated outside the confines of rigid monogamy. Tune in for a playful yet insightful chat that expands your vocabulary and your perspective on what casual sex can really mean
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Transcript
Introduction to Casual Sex and Friends with Benefits
00:00:00
funwithsexpodcast
Hi, this is John with the Fun with Sex podcast. And I'm Natalie. And today we're talking about casual sex. More specifically, we're talking about the trends with benefit dynamic, where one person expects the other person to never catch feelings, emotions, and have strictly physical only relationships. Is that how you would define it? Yeah. And just the overall misconception that You know, there's a lot of miscommunication and when it comes to friends with benefits, some people think it means we are literally going to fuck and either than that, we don't talk at all. Some people thinks it's like actually being friends and doing stuff together. And yeah, so many people just get into these situationships where
00:00:51
funwithsexpodcast
one person is very much not happy. I think the issue is that we're not taught as
Miscommunication and Unrealistic Expectations
00:00:56
funwithsexpodcast
a society how to communicate what we want out of sexual desires yeah and sexual and emotional relationships. So there's this weird thing where when people say casual sex or friends with benefits, there's this wide range of topics like you just said that that could mean.
00:01:13
funwithsexpodcast
And I think that like the one that is most unrealistic and I have never seen work out for anyone is the idea that you can have sex and hang out with somebody multiple times and it's just strictly physical. Let me not say that. I feel like there are people out there that that situation does work for. Yeah. But I don't think that's the majority of ah people on a planet. Yeah. I think it's really rare. I think one of the biggest issues I see on both ends is you know, where people kind of say they want friends with benefits, but it's like a heavy, heavy emphasis on friends. And it's like, you guys are basically dating or you have like the other end of the spectrum where there's people where they expect casual sex to be absolutely no motion at all. Like don't even cuddle after sex. And at that point I'm like,
00:02:12
funwithsexpodcast
why don't you just get a sex worker?
Societal Norms and Emotional Detachment
00:02:14
funwithsexpodcast
Cause people are real humans with real emotions. And that's my thing is like, I don't think you can expect someone to have sex with you multiple times, hang out with you multiple times and not form some type of relationship with people with you. Cause I mean, that's what a relationship is. You spending multiple times with multiple times and experiences with someone. Same thing with a friend or like even a classmate. If you have a classmate that you work,
00:02:41
funwithsexpodcast
group projects will for an entire semester, you're gonna form some type of relationship with, you're gonna have some type of rapport in like conversations. And I think the role is the idea that we can have sex, which is a very intimate thing for a lot of people, not a lot of people, sex is just strictly physical with no types of like emotional investment at all. And then like at the end of the day, we're gonna be completely stoic with each other and just be able to walk away.
00:03:09
funwithsexpodcast
I think that's just like unrealistic and it's unhealthy and I think that a lot of it has to do with our cultural lack of understanding around communication and and to empathy. Yeah, totally. I think there's, you know, we live in this culture where so many people I think are seeking connection, but they're very much afraid of it. And I think when you come from a society where, you know, most marriages end in divorce, you end up with a lot of these people who are very much very avoidant. So they kind of think, oh, instead of dealing with my problems, I can just go this route where I just have casual sex and I just, there's no feelings at all. And it's just, it's unrealistic. It's an unrealistic standard to set that you're going to be able to continuously see someone and hook up and be in each other's houses and
00:04:08
funwithsexpodcast
you know, share things about each other's lives, because that's just a natural impulse.
Challenges of Monogamous Culture in Non-Exclusive Relationships
00:04:13
funwithsexpodcast
And it's not to say that you can't have a friends with benefits situation where you're both very realistic, that you're not dating. But, you know, I think there's a lot of gray zone where people say that's what they want. But it's really just they're chasing after a relationship, but they don't want to have to deal with Accepting the fact that they could get heartbroken if they enter into a relationship I think a big issue too is the limitations of the dominant monogamous culture I think people only see partnerships as like One we're either exclusively dating where you're my soulmate and you're my end all be all or be we're platonic friends and then a lot of relationships probably most relationships that people have with each other are
00:05:04
funwithsexpodcast
that's not sexual day-to-day dating as is somewhere in between. And because we don't know how to have conversations so outside of exclusive monogamous relationships, we don't know how to navigate those relationships where it's like, I may like you as a person, I may want to have sex with you and hang out with you as a friend, but I'm also not ready for an exclusive partnership dating. And I think that if you gave people that language to communicate that this is what they're looking for, I think that It expands what casual sex can be and could be, but I think the problem is that people are like, well, I don't want to date you. I'm not in a place where I want to be in an exclusive relationship, but like, I also want to have sex with you still. So I've been convinced that the only way to have sex with somebody that I'm not dating is to have this emotional less, less, emotional less relationship where we both pretend that there's nothing absolute at all going on.
00:06:01
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And I think that's the other thing with non-monogamy too is, you know, when you enter into E&M, you kind of accept that every relationship is different, has different boundaries, has different dynamics. So in E and&M culture, it's super normal to talk about like, right away, like, Hey, what are you looking for? And there's like,
00:06:26
funwithsexpodcast
a slew of terms and phrases people can use to describe what they're looking for. And you'll find on the ENM dating apps, people have like, you you know, a paragraph of like, I want a casual connection. I want us, you know, we can get some food, have a fun time, but I'm not looking and people are kind of used to communicating that. Whereas I feel like with my monogamous friends, it's you know, you go on even thinking back to the days when I was on Tinder, you go on there and it's like this black and white thing where it's like you're either looking to pull up to my house at 11 30 p.m. I don't even know your last name we fuck and you leave immediately or I am like looking for the love of my life. And that's the other thing too that like I think people need to accept as well as it's like you can
00:07:20
funwithsexpodcast
Go on dates. You can try having sex with someone. You can do X, Y, and Z. You can hang out with someone and not be decided or not desire like a long-term relationship with them. And I think that's the issue is that in our society, relationships aren't negotiable. Whereas in like kink and non-monogamous and more like sex positive spaces and relationships, everything is negotiable. Everything is like, Hey, we're both going to lay out on the table. What we want, what we don't want.
00:07:50
funwithsexpodcast
and maybe like we give and take. And I think that like, again, because monogamous culture, like you said, there's this dichotomy of like, either you're looking for the love of your life and you immediately you want to jump into an exclusive relationship or the boundaries is I'm looking for somebody to place hold me while I'm looking for the love of my life. Or like, I'm not looking at all.
Dating Apps and Misrepresented Intentions
00:08:13
funwithsexpodcast
And I think that like, this is why we have this weird situation in like,
00:08:18
funwithsexpodcast
dating, especially people around our age where like everybody is in these like weird situationships and like stagnation because none of them know how to communicate and negotiate what they want out of a relationship. And then once you get in those dynamics, then you can see like how those individual individual relationships form into something greater or maybe not something greater and and accepting that every relationship is different and that relationships can end. Not every relationship has and but every relationship you engage in, the goal has to be like marriage or like a lifelong story.
00:08:49
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And you can also like, you can both have a conversation and accept, Hey, we enjoy dating. We enjoy hanging out together, but neither of us want to jump into something serious. But I think a larger issue too, is there's a lot of people think they have to like do one or the other to please the person they're seeing. So I know a lot of people were like,
00:09:17
funwithsexpodcast
they'll go on the dating apps and they'll be like, Oh, I'm only looking for something casual. And then like literally a month and they're like, Oh my God, I need to be in a relationship with this person. And it's like, you said casual and same thing. There's a lot of people that go on the apps and they're like, yeah, I'm open to a relationship when they're really not. They actually just want something casual. And I think there's two types of people who do that. I think there are people who,
00:09:44
funwithsexpodcast
are truthfully misleading people people who tell people that like I'm looking for something more serious even though they know in the back of their head that they're not that they're looking for sex but they know that it's easier to get sex out of people if you promise them a relationship and they get comfortable with you and I also feel like there's other people where like they say they're open for casual even on the back of their mind they're like I want this person to be a partner to me but I also think a lot of people unintentionally do this because they're like I don't know what I want No one has taught me how to figure out or negotiate or even introspect about what I want out of relationship in a different forms. So like I may say that like I'm open to casual sex, but my definition of casual sex is we're still friends who are casually into each other and we go get food and like we're not partners, but you can still take care of of like my emotional needs if I need you. And like we get to have aftercare.
00:10:41
funwithsexpodcast
And then the other person definition of casual sex is like, we fuck and maybe we have like a five minute conversation before and after. And again, I think that like the lack of vocabulary really can explain how people have these two widely different expectations from the same word.
Gender and Queer Dynamics in Casual Sex
00:10:59
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And I think a lot of this could be solved too. If more people just stopped trying to chase monogamy. Yeah. Cause I feel like that's what holds people up. I mean,
00:11:10
funwithsexpodcast
That's what held us up is we're like, uh, so I have to drop the roster. What really happens then? Oh, I'm committing to like one person forever indefinitely. Um, and I think that holds a lot of people up as they're like, well, I enjoy getting to be with multiple people and I'm talking to multiple people right now and I like all of them. So I don't want to commit to this one person. And it's like,
00:11:40
funwithsexpodcast
they either just end up in this cycle where they spent decades just only having casual encounters or cheating on the person. And I think that like the other thing that we need to like talk about too is the fact that you can also have a casual encounter and still be a human being. I think that like there's this idea and especially monogamous circles, that if you're not dating someone, you can show any form of intimacy or that it gives the idea that you guys are going to be dating and progressing towards an exclusive relationship. While like a lot of times none of the monogamous communities understand that you can be a human being to someone else. And that doesn't mean you're progressing towards like marriage and dying together. Yeah. Cause I do think there is an epidemic I've heard from everything from other, from gay men,
00:12:32
funwithsexpodcast
to lesbian women, to non-binary people, to like straight people in relationships. This idea that they have this person that they hook up with who doesn't see them as a human. who has a cold shoulder to them, but then wants access to their body. And they're like, hey, sex is very vulnerable and intimate for me. Can you take a second and take care of me or like talk to me about my feelings? The person's like, that's too much to ask for. And like, unless you communicate ah explicitly before they're like, hey, I want to have sex with you, but I don't want to have a conversation about your feelings at all. I think it's unrealistic to expect somebody that you're having these intimate moments with not to have some type of
00:13:13
funwithsexpodcast
emotional or non-sexual dependency on you or need to communicate with you. And you know, I think bringing up the queer aspect of this is super interesting too, because, you know, there, are there aren't any like grand stereotypes and I don't like to generalize entire groups, but I find it very interesting that like,
00:13:39
funwithsexpodcast
the patterns that happen when it comes to sex and dating is when you have the more masculine queer people, it's super normalized to have casual encounters. I mean, you go on Grindr and you'll get like a dozen messages of someone just being like, meet me at this corner.
00:13:58
funwithsexpodcast
But then you know there's that joke queer women always make about the U-Haul. So like I find that super interesting that when it comes to like generally speaking, people that are raised as a man versus a woman. And I think that's why casual encounters just don't seem to really work for hetero people because If you're looking at those like gender lines, they're just not on the same page. I agree. I think there is like an aspect of socialization that plays into this where I think for a lot of times, especially with women, there's this idea that if you're having sex with a lot of people,
00:14:40
funwithsexpodcast
it's this It's like slut shaming. yeah I think the idea is that like if you're having sex with somebody, they must mean something to you. It's like going back to very cis-hetero culture, the idea that you need to be dating somebody for three months before you have sex with them yeah versus like, and again, hetero cis-man culture, the idea that like,
00:14:58
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah, if you fuck somebody on the first night, you're a player, but for like hetero cis woman, if you fuck somebody on the first night, you're a slut. And I think that we like get socialized with these ideas about casual sex along gender norms that express to like shame or our relationships with sexuality would become adults, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. Cause it's such a thing and like hetero woman circles to be,
00:15:25
funwithsexpodcast
shamed for wanting casual sex. I mean, I remember when I first, you know, like entered into like the stage where I'm like, okay, I'm ready to lose my virginity. And oh my God, these like girls were just like, you cannot do it with someone you don't date. You cannot do it with a random man. Also just like all the fucking stress that's put on woman that like your first time it's going to be so, so horrible. You're going to hate it. You're going to want to never do it again. And it was just this insane pressure that the person I was supposed to do it with was supposed to be someone I was very, very seriously dating and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's like, I think men have a lot of pressure too, because you have this, this idea that like, oh, when you get into a relationship, your life is over or oh, he's pussy whipped. Oh,
00:16:23
funwithsexpodcast
He's listening to her. He's letting her order him around because they're in a relationship. So I think that's why so many hetero couples are just in this cycle where it's like as a woman, if you're having like, if you're having casual sex with one guy, there's always the expectation put on you from other women that you're going to eventually be in a relationship. And if you go there and you're like, no, I don't care about that. It's kind of like,
00:16:51
funwithsexpodcast
Oh, what's wrong with you? Yeah, versus I feel like there's an expectation for men where if you're having sex with somebody, the less emotional the better if you can have the forces have romance, like the God tier thing that you can do the best situation that you could be in is to have sex with somebody where like that person is not emotionally developed, dependent on you at all. And you can just strictly have physical sex with them. You don't have to do.
00:17:20
funwithsexpodcast
any type of emotional work. Well, I do think that a lot of it is performative about the idea that like one women not desiring casual sex and two men only a exclusively wanting casual sex. Because when you look at non-monogamous communities, there's huge demographics of women who are like cis women who are looking for cis men who are like, Hey, I want to just go out and like have fun and be fucked by somebody tonight. I have a partner at home. I don't need you to do that emotional labor for me.
00:17:48
funwithsexpodcast
And even when like I talk to non-monogamous women who like go out and date men who aren't in the non-monogamous scene, these guys always want to like date me and be exclusive of me and like they don't understand that I'm non-monogamous and this is a strictly physical thing. Whereas there's also like a lot of men who... You see this thing happen when they have like they find somebody who's like truly in into like cis straight men who find somebody who's truly into casual sex. And then they find themselves like wanting to date this person or using this person as a therapist or like talking about all their emotions and being like, I don't want you having sex with somebody else. So like, I really think that like a lot of this ideas of dislike and like of casual sex is like socialized, but also think a lot of it's performative and not actually reflective of these people as individuals.
Socialization and Authentic Desires
00:18:40
funwithsexpodcast
I do think yeah, a lot of it is performative. And I think there's definitely because I can speak from experience trying to have casual sex with men. I cannot tell you how many men it will literally be like the first or second time we fucked. We're just like pillow talking, whatever cuddling and they just start talking about trauma and just like go into like therapy mode with you. And I'm like, wait, I thought this was like a casual thing. You said you didn't want a relationship and they want you to do all the girlfriend and stuff. They want access to you emotionally. And a lot of them want you to be exclusive too. And they use some bullshit about like STDs and it's like, no, you don't want to see me with someone else, but they say they don't want a relationship. And it's like,
00:19:28
funwithsexpodcast
what is this like diet relationship you're doing? I mean, I think a lot of it is one is like socialization, but also I think a lot of it is like, I want the perks of being a boyfriend while being able to say that like the responsibilities while I never sign up to be a boyfriend. And I think that happens a lot of like cis hat dating world where it's like, I want to be able to talk to you. Like you're my girlfriend. I want to be you to, I want us to be able to go on dates. Like you're my girlfriend. I want us to be able to have sex and hang out like you're my girlfriend.
00:19:58
funwithsexpodcast
But the minute that you're like, hey, I need you as a boyfriend to be my emotional support at a time that you don't want to or I need you to hang out with me because I need you tonight instead of going out with friends, I can throw up in your face at like, well, I'm not your boyfriend. Yeah, I think that happens. I also want a good touch back with something before because like having a lot of like gay men friends, a lot of them complain about Grindr and like the idea that a lot of people on there aren't seeking relationships and a lot of people on Grindr aren't openly not a lot of people but there is a large percentage of people Grindr who aren't openly gay man or people have dealt with their trauma and he's the reason why they're not looking for a relationship is less because they're just looking for a true hookup and more because they're looking to like experiment and they were saying there's a lot of while there's also a lot of like gay guys who truly do love the casual sex scene and I don't want to like dismiss their experiences there's also a lot of like gay men who are like
00:20:51
funwithsexpodcast
I am looking for a relationship. I'm looking for somebody to build something more serious with. Yeah. I, a friend, a gay man friend said something so interesting to me the other day because I'm like at a point in my bi journey where I'm like, ah, I don't really like do too much with like the questioning girls. Cause like, you know, I want someone who is kind of like more at my experience level and we can just kind of like, you know, go at the same pace.
00:21:21
funwithsexpodcast
um But he said he actually likes the straight and experimenting ones because they like stick around. They stick around? Yes. They're like, oh, I you know found this one person who has like, promise they're not going to tell anyone. They're not connected to anyone in my personal life. And I know we can be discreet. So they're going to be like super consistent.
00:21:47
funwithsexpodcast
Whereas there's like kind of like a fuckboy culture in other circles. I can understand that. And I think that we need to also have like a conversation about people introspecting with themselves. Like I'm glad that that person was able to understand where they were emotionally and what they went out of relationship.
Self-Reflection and Communication in Evolving Relationships
00:22:06
funwithsexpodcast
And I think that's a skill that a lot of people need to have when they're going through casual encounters. You need to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and say like, what do I desire out of sexual intimacy?
00:22:15
funwithsexpodcast
there are a lot of people who are like, hey, having sex, I need to have an in an exclusive monogamous relationship. That's fine. There's people who are like, right now I'm looking for sex and and and not an exclusive relationship at all. We're like I have very low responsibilities besides being you should always be a good basic human being to the person you're fucking.
00:22:37
funwithsexpodcast
but in and out, in and out of the bedroom. But like besides being a good person, I don't want any more responsibilities. There's people who are like, Hey, I'm trying to explore and figure that out. And I want to communicate that to my partner or be a non-monogamous. There's people who's like, I'm looking for both. Like there's a lot of like polyamorous people who are like, I am looking for someone to have casual, very low level expectation and responsibility sex. And I'm looking for other partners to have deeper emotional and emotional and romantic relationships with. And I think having those conversations and defining and saying out loud what you want allows you to go into these spaces better to negotiate with potential partners about how this relationship should look in a way that's healthy and happy for you. Yeah. And that's what I love about like polyamory and nominography too is you kind of have this understanding of like, you know,
00:23:33
funwithsexpodcast
Each relationship is unique and has its own dynamic and that's totally okay. And I think this like goes into like another point is that you also need to be understandable. You need to be open to understanding that relationships are fluid.
00:23:48
funwithsexpodcast
People aren't rigid human beings and emotions change, wants and desires change, ah attraction levels and the emotional dependency levels change. So when you need to recognizing yourself that like, even though I may want casual sex or I may not have wanted casual sex at the start of the relationship.
00:24:08
funwithsexpodcast
I am an evolving fluid person and that may change, but also that the person that I'm having sex with is an individual and that their needs and desires may change. And again, if that's not what you negotiated, it's perfectly fine to walk away at any time and say like, Hey, this isn't what we negotiated. This isn't what we agreed on. But I also understand any of that, like the person who agreed to that isn't the same person you're talking to now because we are ever changing people. Yeah, totally.
00:24:36
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah. And like I've had situations where like I went into a thing with someone and being like, I wanted something more casual. And then I realized how cool of a person they were. And I was like, Oh, I would actually date you. I would like to date you. And the person is like, no, I'm in a place in my life where I want something casual. And that's what we agreed on. Yeah. I just had to accept that. Like, even though I changed, it doesn't mean that person changed. Yeah, totally. And I think like nomenogamy does a really good job of like teaching you the fluidity and ever-changingness of like relationships.
00:25:05
funwithsexpodcast
Yeah, and getting comfortable having those conversations. Yeah. would you like How would you suggest people communicating that the relationship dynamics or change other than they want to change a relationship dynamic? I think the biggest thing before you got into dating is having the conversation about what are you looking for? The conversation with yourself.
00:25:28
funwithsexpodcast
Well, yeah, yourself first, it's self-reflection. And then this person that you're about to go on a date with or you match with or whatever, having that conversation about, okay, what are you looking for? I'm looking for more of a partner or I want something casual or I'm kind of open to whatever naturally happens. um But I think, you know, the biggest thing is just kind of being timely and upfront about what you're feeling. So when you do realize you have serious feelings, communicate that. When you do realize you want something more casual, communicate that in the moment when it happens. Yeah, I agree. I don't think I have anything I could possibly add to that. That was a good way to end up the ah end off the podcast. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for listening to the Fun with Sex podcast. I hope you have a really nice week.