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Diggin' Discernment Pt. 2
54 Plays2 years ago
What's the difference between being smart and being wise? In episode 16, Kiley and Nan dig a little deeper into the concept of discernment, and how it's an act of not just listening to the mind, but also the body.
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Transcript
Introduction to Everyday Mindful
00:00:10
Speaker
Hi, I'm Kylie Wyn Efron. And I'm Nan Cavanaugh, and welcome to Everyday Mindful, a space for real talk on weaving the magic of mindfulness into our daily lives. Let's dig in.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hey, Kylie. Hey, Nan. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing?
Exploring Discernment in Life
00:00:36
Speaker
I'm good. I am very excited to continue our conversation from last week on discernment. We kind of dove into the importance of it and explored how it's woven you know into our lives via our relationships, work, family. And today we're going to touch on how to really cultivate discernment and its relationship to mindfulness. So I thought maybe we could start with another definition on discernment, but this one is a little bit more
00:01:10
Speaker
particular to its relationship to mindfulness. So mindfulness is discerning thoughts that arise based on conditions in the situations you face at work and at home. Discernment with the aid of mindfulness brings us wisdom. Wisdom in living a contended life that breeds happiness from within. I thought that was really beautiful. That is really beautiful.
00:01:39
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I really love this idea of the aid of mindfulness. Disarmament with the aid of mindfulness brings us wisdom. What does wisdom mean to you?
Wisdom and Authenticity
00:01:56
Speaker
I think for me, what's inherent in wisdom is for one, a collecting of information that it's, you know, ideally a wise person has had many experiences, many conversations.
00:02:12
Speaker
And that there is this under this calm understanding of neutrality and that their decisions, like the ah a wise decision, a wise person is basing their decisions and their statements off of experience.
Emotional Intelligence and Care
00:02:34
Speaker
And I think from a really authentic place. Yeah, yeah, I thought, I think authenticity is a big component, authenticity and experience for sure. And I think that the ability to, I don't, wise people hold a lot of space. They hold a lot of space for people. They hold a lot of space for information. They are very, I don't wanna say necessarily measured in their,
00:03:09
Speaker
way of being in the world but they are often very um thoughtful in what they say and what they do. I think the words measure and measured and thoughtful really ring with me because I think that also a wise person understands that you have to have a varied you have to experience a variety of emotions you have to go through trials and tribulations to gain wisdom. And the knowledge and wisdom that we acquire does not always come through ease, right? Often it comes through and it comes through experience.
00:03:48
Speaker
And so i love I love the idea that you know we go through these experiences in life and then we extrapolate the wisdom out of them. And I agree with you, I do think wisdom kind of infers this idea of holding space and allowing. And I think that that's really key when it comes to the process of discernment. Because discernment, you do have to hold space for it. it naturally involves reflection. yeah And um ideally it also involves learning and tapping into past experiences and past emotions.
00:04:29
Speaker
And um everything that you've extrapolated throughout your life, um that's part of how we do cultivate discernment, is how we learn from things. And I agree with you, I love this idea of, um you know, not, I think wisdom is very rarely, it's never projecting onto somebody. It's always
Mindfulness Practices for Discernment
00:04:50
Speaker
kind of holding space. And I think there's an aspect of care to it. hundred percent There's an aspect of care to it. And once again, this aspect of curiosity. So I think, you know, the first process of the first mindfulness step when you're trying to cultivate discernment is it's starting with care and curiosity. And I think that also really involves slowing down and quieting the noise in some way.
00:05:19
Speaker
So I think that there are um regular practices that we can do that help train us to do that. So whether that's, a and you know, in my opinion, breath work is always the fastest way to quiet things down. I think that's something you can do in a formal sitting practice. It's something you can do in the moment. um meditation, other mindfulness exercises, maybe it's taking a mindful walk and just listening and paying attention to nature and the sounds that are around you. It's just like training the brain to be a little bit more present and a little quieter. And I think when you do that in a formal practice of some way,
00:06:00
Speaker
Then in the moments where you have to use your discernment a little faster, let's say something comes our way and we don't have a lot of time to reflect, I think your ability to get quiet and to listen to your messages comes in much faster. I think you can get to that place. in a much quicker manner than if you don't have any of those practices in place. I think you can like tap in. You can like get into that like inner place of wisdom way faster. Your body allows you in faster if you know how to quiet the noise.
00:06:33
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that. I do think though, like it kind of a big, I was trying to think through like, what is the difference between a smart person and a wise person? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. And I think smartness implies quickness, right? Smartness is, and also I think going back to that word care, like you can be very smart without having care. um But you can't be wise without care. You can make quick decisions as a wise person, but you can't make uncaring decisions as a wise person. You can make smart decisions that are correct and uncaring. um I really think it's almost like there's a kind of
00:07:17
Speaker
like a speed to smart that wisdom just has like a different energetic pace because like you said it's based on ah it's based on experience it's a based on curiosity it's a based on reflection where I think intelligence is a lot of it is based on just like gathering information Yeah, making a quick decision I also think to what smart is missing is emotional intelligence. Yeah, right. Intelligence is more involved in how we process the information we receive just not how much we absorb you can have a very smart person who's absorbed
00:07:55
Speaker
a lot of information and knows a lot. um But that doesn't necessarily mean they're intelligent. And it doesn't also necessarily mean, I think in particular, a wise person is emotionally intelligent. They know how to process. And I think that processing is intrinsic to discernment as well. So I agree with you. I think that care, I think that emotional intelligence and I think reflection and the ability to do all those things is inric is intrinsic to wisdom, to being a wise person. And the wiser you are, the better are you able the better you're able to tap into, you know, to your discernment.
Managing Emotions for Better Discernment
00:08:36
Speaker
And I think also to
00:08:39
Speaker
with A wise person, a person who really has mastered the art of becoming discerning in the best manner, also does not knows how to put aside their judgment, I think, with more ease than some other people do or some of us do. um i think And they're also able, I think, to catch themselves in moments of judgment, of actually identifying when we're being judgmental towards ourselves or being judgmental towards somebody else. I think you're able, if you have emotional intelligence, you're also able to catch when your aspects of resentment are are showing up, you know, which I think we talked about another episode I had heard Brene Brown say that resentment is actually connected to the emotion of jealousy, not anger. And that the idea is
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, you know, the idea is that most of the time when we're resentful, have resentment towards somebody, it's because we're jealous that we can't do what they can't do or that we don't have the, if we're mad at them because they don't work as hard as we are, as we think we do, then we're probably a little jealous that they take more time for themselves. Yeah. You know, and so I think it's like the ability, a wise person has the ability to better evaluate when those emotions rise. And it's vital and relating to discernment because you can't you can't be discerning if judgment, anger, jealousy, if any of those emotions are are rising, if that's what's peaking up, um that's not your moment that you're going to be discerning.
00:10:19
Speaker
That's the moment. they Those things, I think, can rise up in the process of discernment. But you have to get to a place where you allow those to rise. You are able to get quiet a little bit and watch them and try to get underneath. Okay, well, why am I feeling resentment towards this person? Why am I feeling jealous right in this moment? Why am I feeling so angry by what this person said or this, you know, and piece of information that was presented to me? And then I think once you're able to do that, then you're able to get to true intuition and true discernment much faster. And I think a big part of that, the other step is asking questions. That's how we see wisdom, right, is we ask questions.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I think it's so important. A lot of judgment comes from a place of misunderstanding. And I think when you ask the question, and you may not like, I can't ask the television a question when I'm getting annoyed with something on news, but I can ask myself the question, like, why, what, what is happening here? Why is this
Stories of Discernment in Daily Life
00:11:28
Speaker
person doing this? What, what is, what is the underlying
00:11:33
Speaker
What is the underlying issue that is driving this right now? And I think when you ask questions, it allows you to dig in to whatever it is that's causing this this feeling, this warning sign for you, because that's really a lot of feelings when it comes to being you know triggered. It's your body you know warning you. you know, with its fear mechanisms that you should pay attention to what's going on in some capacity. And asking the questions allows you to, A, quiet that noise because you're not, you're you're digging in a little bit, you're not reacting, you're inquiring. um And I think once you start kind of getting into that mode of seeking,
00:12:22
Speaker
seeking, you allow it allows you to to have stronger discernment when it comes to finally making a well-informed judgment or a well-informed call on on something or even a person. But I actually got involved in, unbeknownst to me, a social experiment over the weekend in a public park here. So I'm like, it's like early in the morning, like 6 45 and walking along and um Not many people are in the park and I see a homeless man and he is sitting on a bench and I, you know, I'm a single woman with a dog. He's there. and There's one other person who's a little further ahead. He would walk past him and it was fine. and
00:13:08
Speaker
I'm looking at him and he is making himself small, you know, he's trying to cover his head. So he doesn't have to, I don't, he doesn't have to look at me. I think can tell that he's trying to be as unthreatening as my presence was possible. So I'll just go on my merry way. um And I, you know, I say, I talk to human beings. I don't don't ignore people when they're in there when they are my presence. And I said, you know, good morning. And he, I think was completely caught off guard that I said good morning and said, you know, good morning back. And I just carried on. And then another man pulls up in his blue VW vintage Beetle, gets out of his car and he's like,
00:13:55
Speaker
You're the only person who acknowledged that that man this morning. He's like, I had just gone to McDonald's to bring him some food, and I just want to let you know that you're the only person who spoke to him. And this man, let me tell you, he's not wearing a shirt. He is maybe in his 70s. He has a beard that goes to his belly button, and um but he We spent an hour talking and he's like, I look like this. not He looks like a homeless person. He's like, I'm not a homeless person. I look like this because I'm constantly trying to see who in a public space is going to engage with me as a person um versus ignore me because I look different.
00:14:39
Speaker
And, um, I don't know. He's like, he's like, you were tested today and you passed the test. And I'm like, well, thank you. I was just like being a human, like speaking to the other humans. Um, uh, but it was such a trip and it was such a trip to meet someone who he's my new prophet in the park. I'm going to have lots of conversations with this guy. It's a much bigger story, which I will give you the download on later. It was actually a very magical moment on many levels god I love that well because I think in that moment you really were using your discernment You know your there was nothing about this man you you were reading this man's energy And there was nothing in this man's energy that was telling you
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, that was telling you that needed that you needed to avoid him. um And he probably needed and really appreciated having that human interaction. And I'll tell you a little story that's gonna make me sound far less open. than you. I had the opposite experience yesterday walking through my neighborhood. And and you know we have a, listen, I grew up in Berkeley, California and San Francisco. So we have a very large homeless population in both of those areas. um I'm very versed in it. I'm actually very comfortable around it. i you know It is not something that scares me. And um and I agree with you. I believe that you know people all people
00:16:01
Speaker
Deserve interaction and they deserve to be treated humanely and but in this case I was walking through my local neighborhood where my business is and And we get homeless people in and out of the neighborhood. We've had a little bit of an increase in the last couple of years and but this man, I was walking one direction and I saw him and he made eye contact with me for a second and I just got an instantaneous hit that was like, don't engage with this person. and So I just kept walking and then I went into a shop and I came out and I walked back out and he actually stopped me to talk to me and I could instantly read his energy that this person was not mentally stable and that I needed to not engage with him in any way whatsoever. I actually heard
00:16:48
Speaker
kylie Kylie move on Immediately and so I said to him, you know, he actually um I can't remember he told me his name or something and I said well, you know John I'm sorry, but I have to get moving so I wasn't you know unkind to him but I just I this was not an individual that I needed to make eye contact with this was not an individual and that I was going to have, my body was telling me clearly, my sixth sense was telling me clearly this is not gonna be a healthy exchange. yeah And so in that moment, I listened to it, you know? You've gotta do that too. You have to do that too because you also have to stay safe sometimes, you know? 100%.
Women's Safety Instincts in Public Spaces
00:17:25
Speaker
I'm not saying this man would have hurt me, i'm just I'm just saying that was the message that my body told me very clearly and I paid attention to it because I could feel an alarm in my system.
00:17:35
Speaker
you know And so I think that it's it's so important in some of those moments that we um we tune in to the messages our body is sending us, but also then do have moments like what you had where you're just aware and you just kind of pay attention and you have an exchange and you don't cut yourself off to having um exchanges because judgment is present. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think in that moment, it's like you got curious, you paid attention to whether judgment was there. Like you did all the things girl, you like checked all the boxes. I passed the test there. But I do, I mean, I've had experiences, similar experiences where, you know, you meet someone and you're immediately like,
00:18:20
Speaker
I need to put my hand over my drink in the bar and maybe take it with me to the bathroom. You know, like you meet people and you're like, your energy feels dangerous. And, um, and I need to, I gotta, I don't know. Your body will tell you. Your body will tell you. listen And um I hate to say this, but I do think as women, um you know, we have had many, most of us have had many experiences in our lives where we've been put in unsafe situations, or we have to be a little bit more protective over our physical safety.
00:18:54
Speaker
then
Teaching Children Discernment
00:18:55
Speaker
perhaps you know someone of the male gender has experience. I'm not saying that they haven't experienced physical threats or anything. this is that There is a broad range of experiences a person can have. I'm speaking generally and and to my experience. um And so I do think too that there is that part of you, especially as a woman where you have to kind of really like pay attention to your body, pay attention to what's happening in your gut in those moments. So when you know a situation is safe or an individual is safe. And I mean, I think too, you know, part of like, it's easier to cultivate discernment when you've got wisdom and time on your side and emotional maturity and intelligence. You know, we've had a longer life where we've had these experiences and we've been able to process them.
00:19:42
Speaker
and move forward. You know, I think for children, they have to, I think the children are actually born incredibly discerning. Like they just, right? Call a spade a spade. they Absolutely. They just like, absolutely. They're like, like somebody or don't like somebody. Like it's really interesting to watch them. um But I do think as they're getting a little bit older, especially around the teenage years, like I'm definitely in the process of trying to help teach my children how to cultivate discernment. yeah and you know And all the things, um how to be discerning in their friendships when paying attention to how a friend or a relationship makes them feel.
00:20:20
Speaker
um How to be discerning when opportunities at school are presented to them. um You know how learning how to be emotionally intelligent is a huge part of discernment and I feel like um watching trying to teach my kids has been an interesting you know experience with it because I think it's harder for them to go right into the steps of mindfulness and the way that it is as adults. But I definitely think that, you know, um it watching children is an interesting, it's an interesting experiment in judging discernment. Yeah, it's true. It's true. And I do think that
00:21:01
Speaker
I mean, it just goes back to the idea of experience, right? And I think like when you're closest to the source, whether it's at the beginning of life or at the end of life, you're operating from like a different space of wisdom, you know? And it's that in between that really ah requires the questioning, the life experience, the openness, the ability to care and be
Decision-Making: Reasons vs. Excuses
00:21:26
Speaker
compassionate. Like I think it's very hard to be discerning without having compassion without really trying to understand the reasoning. Like I deal with my husband and I all the time go back and forth about, you know, he'll be like, well, think about the kids. Well, that's just an excuse.
00:21:48
Speaker
I'm like, I think it's a reason. you know We're constantly arguing about what's an excuse to do or not do something, but then what is a reason? And I think you know it's important to kind of get to that. And reason's an interesting word. I don't even know what the actual definition of reason is. We should look that up sometime. But um because I do feel like you have to use reason in some ways to be discerning. you know and yeah Well, you know, we have that same conversation in our household quite often. So you are not alone. That is something that we explore. And I mean, that's once again where discernment comes into play. I had to do that with my um son yesterday, came home from camp, was not enjoying camp.
00:22:31
Speaker
And, you know, I was not enjoying camp, not for any terribly traumatic reasons this year. It's more like, doesn't have a lot of friends in camp, is maybe a little less, you know, his friends from school are not in camp this year. So he's not liking that so much, not liking the activities. And he's, you know, just letting it ruin his day. And by the time I got to him, he was just unhappy and he had gotten, he was playing swamp ball and got hit in the head and then it just snowballed. And you could tell his whole day it snowballed on him. I don't even know, but it's so Florida. They were playing it. And, you know, none of these things happened to him on purpose. They just kind of happened. But by the time I picked him up, he's like, I don't want to go back and I don't like this. andh dahdadah And I had to have this moment with myself. I had to have use my own discernment as a parent to really go, well, is this a moment where like, okay, well, is he being bullied? No, he's not being bullied.
00:23:25
Speaker
um Is there anything happening in this camp that's not safe? No. you know And I really had to sit down with him and say, listen, you know you are an amazing kid. You are a smart kid, a funny kid, a kind kid. You're just an all-around great human. But one of the areas that you do have to work on is pushing through hard things, doing the things you don't want to do. And I know that that is not fun, but that is part of life. And we have to watch our thoughts and not laugh because the minute you start thinking this is terrible, this sucks, it's a snowball effect.
Parenting with Discernment
00:24:05
Speaker
And so you can't allow your thoughts to take over the entire process and convert your day into something larger.
00:24:13
Speaker
And so I had this kind of, you know, this kind of tough conversation with him. And you know, at the end of it, he was like, okay, you're right. And, you know, he went upstairs and he went back to camp today. And I might have to have that same conversation when I go pick him up in a few minutes. But, um you know, I realized I had to use my discernment that moment as a parent of I'm gonna let him out of something because he just doesn't like it. Because it's just not as interesting. or Is this something you have to protect him from? Or is this something I have to protect him from? Is this a genuine emotion he's having that's reasonable? The emotion's reasonable regardless, right but part of my job is to help him navigate that, right? So I think that that's, you know, once again, it comes back to like cultivating reflection and awareness and, you know, noticing what feelings are arising, like what biases are arising and what responses are arising.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:25:06
Speaker
And if you can just have awareness around those and just watch them a little bit, reflect on them a little bit, your ability to discern what is the most healthy relationship, job opportunity, family dynamic, I think will become far easier and ah far like just a healthier, faster, more like intuitive practice that you can get to you know much more quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, thank you. I think so. You're welcome. And I, you know what? I don't think I realized until this conversation how intrinsic wisdom is to discernment that like ultimately that is where mindfulness, a mindfulness practice takes us.
00:25:59
Speaker
Wisdom. Yeah. I think, I think you're right. I think that is kind of the, I don't want to say the end game, but it's definitely what it is. Cause that's what leads us to a, you know, a life with contentment and enjoyment and pleasure, you know, and well-roundedness. Let's cultivate some wisdom. Right now. Have a great rest of the week. Thank you. Bye.
00:26:29
Speaker
Don't forget to follow us on social, everyday mindful podcast on Instagram and Facebook. And if you liked our little chat, please subscribe. It would be great if you gave us a review. All the stars, please. Same time, same place next week. Bye. Bye.