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Creativity: Do We Create To Survive or Thrive?
100 Plays2 years ago
Why do we create? In this episode, Kiley and Nan explore creativity, why it is important and how to integrate it into everyday life. From Andre 3000 and Elizabeth Gilbert to Pema Chödrön and Rick Rubin, there are so many visionaries to look to when it comes to lighting inspiration.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Everyday Mindful' Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, I'm Kylie Wyn Efron. And I'm Nan Cavanaugh, and welcome to Everyday Mindful, a space for real talk on weaving the magic of mindfulness into our daily lives. Let's dig in. Should we dive in? Yeah.
00:00:27
Speaker
Let's do it. These questions are good. Okay. All right. You want to start? Sure.
Is Creativity a Selfish Act?
00:00:36
Speaker
We're talking about creativity today. We're talking about creativity as a selfish act. I guess the first place we got to go is why is creativity important? If you're going to make the time for it, it should be important.
00:00:57
Speaker
Why is it important? Why is it particularly important to us as humans? I think I'm going to go deep really fast because I spent some time reflecting on this. And I had a lot of those canned answers, which are all true. They're all true. But when I really like, I actually had to
00:01:21
Speaker
close my eyes and just like meditate on it for a minute and like let it like really kind of come to me and like sink into it because I do think it's so intrinsically a part of who we are as humans and so vital to our health and our happiness.
00:01:36
Speaker
And our culture, our societies, everything thrive off art. And I really think that there is this kind of like divine creative light that burns within all of us. And I think on a spiritual level, like being creative, it connects us to the divine. It connects us to God. It connects us to that creative source energy, whatever it is, whatever you call that.
00:02:06
Speaker
So I think that that's like the fundamental aspect of it. That's like that deep spiritual aspect to
Role of Creativity in Human Evolution
00:02:12
Speaker
it. But I also think, you know, we are, we're the only animals that have a creative process or at least that we understand have a creative process. That's what, you know, one of the things they say that separates us.
00:02:25
Speaker
And I think it did start as part of our evolution, right? As our evolutionary process because we had to be creative to survive. Yeah. But I think with many things with evolution, they are adaptability, they have become more complex.
00:02:43
Speaker
And I think one of the questions you had written was, you know, is it vital, like, is creativity vital to be alive, to be human? And I would make the argument that it is, that there is a burning part of us that wants to
00:02:59
Speaker
express ourselves, it wants to express our feelings, it wants to express our emotions, it wants to be a part of the beauty of the world, whether that's like making a painting that just is beautiful and making art for art's sake, or whether it's actually like diving into a work of art that has more intellectual merits or meaning to it. I think that our transformation
00:03:28
Speaker
And evolution is why we are here. And I think the creative process is a big part of that. So I know that's kind of a heady way to start. But that's like what hit me the most when I was really like thinking like at the core of this, because I feel like intrinsically, I understand how important art is. But when I actually thought about, well, how am I going to articulate this? Yeah, it was a tough. It's a tough thing to define. It's a it's a it's a big it's a big thing to define that, you know, I
00:03:58
Speaker
I completely agree with what you said. I really feel like honestly, I really feel like creativity is what it's like the big differentiator between us and other species. Like we create for the sake of creation.
Joy of Creation Beyond Survival
00:04:13
Speaker
Like I feel like a lot of other species, maybe all other species create, you know, they create for camouflage, you know, they might like, like build something to hide their eggs or hide a
00:04:28
Speaker
pattern on their body from a predator. They create, I guess they create for survival. And I'm kind of talking this through. I wonder if, I mean, I think we create to create, but I think to be truly human and really survive in a healthy way, you have to also be
00:04:55
Speaker
So maybe we do create for survival, but just like next level emotional intelligence type creation. I totally agree. I actually think there's this link that's about survival, right? I think at one point we created solely to survive, to physically survive. So I think that there is a seed within us that still believes our life depends upon it. But as we have evolved to be more complex creatures,
00:05:23
Speaker
that form of creativity, the role it plays in our lives has evolved, right? Because I don't believe we were brought here to just survive. I think that was the start. That's how we started as a species. And then like all other aspects of our evolution, we've become more and more and more complex. But I do think there's that seed
00:05:44
Speaker
within us that still remembers like oh I do this to survive even though we don't physically you know well I guess maybe there's a little bit of an argument that we'll get into that you do need it to survive but the physical threats you know like we're no I don't think we're trying to be creative to you know survive a beast who's coming at us or
00:06:03
Speaker
you know, incredible temperatures that we can't withstand, but things along those lines. But I think it has transformed. Yeah. But I think that seed is still planted within us. That evolutionary seed is still there. Yeah. For sure. I remember learning in school that like the oldest painting in the world, right, is in this cave in the southeast of France. It's like 30,000 years old. And they're paintings of animals.
00:06:33
Speaker
And I think there's also a red hand. I think we remember a red hand somehow. I know which game you're talking about. Chauvet. I'm not quite sure how to pronounce it. My French is like a little to none. But, you know, there was a lot of paint. The paintings are mainly of like animals, predatory animals in particular, horses, things that in a way I think, you know, were just
00:07:02
Speaker
Well, either part of their daily lives or maybe the paintings were designed as a message for people to be like aware. I don't, I don't really know. I'm doing a deep dive on this cave, but just thinking about, you know, the oldest work of art arguably in the world outside of, I would say maybe music and cooking. I'm sure there's maybe drum music that's older. I don't know. Um, uh, you know,
00:07:29
Speaker
that it was paintings of things that you encounter in the everyday, you know, animals, wildlife. And I think that, you know, I think creativity is a form of storytelling. And storytelling is essential to us as a species. It's how we
00:07:50
Speaker
pass on information generation to generation for better or for worse, help ourselves kind of move through existence as a species.
Creativity's Influence on Mental Health
00:08:03
Speaker
So it's really, I mean, I think it is really vital to create and I think a lot of us aren't creating, you know, there was a time where in the kitchen we would create because there was no like pre-made food.
00:08:19
Speaker
you had no option but to create in the kitchen. And maybe that was the only place you created because you were doing hard manual labor all day long, but that was your space. But even now with convenience, people don't have to create while they cook anymore. I don't know. I think it's essential and I think it's really important to our mental health.
00:08:42
Speaker
Yeah, I was just thinking when you were talking about the cave painting, I just kept thinking communication. This person wanted to communicate in some form. They wanted to create, they felt the impetus to create visual images that communicated their experience and whether that communication, like you said, was a warning or whether that communication was just maybe documentation. But even then, there was a need to express themselves, to document, to create something. There was this spark in this individual
00:09:11
Speaker
who understood if they mixed, you know, clay with water or whatever to create a pigment that they could record and they could document in some form. I think that's like deeply intriguing to me. Deeply intriguing. Yeah, I agree. And then I also think that like for some people, you know, creativity is like a channeling. Like I remember this
00:09:40
Speaker
hearing this interview with Bob Dylan and him talking about, you know, he was so young when he wrote so much of his extraordinary music and how it just like came to him. And it was like, he was just a vessel, you know, putting it down on paper, putting music to it. And I think a lot of artists have these moments of channeling, like, and then, and then they, you know, years past before they have that again, you know,
00:10:09
Speaker
some people it's more prolific, but I think, you know, I think there's like, we can, we create to express and then we also just create to serve, if that makes sense. Like just to serve some sort of, I don't know, I don't know, serve the spirit in some way. Like it's like not, it's like almost like a trance state, I think when you're in that channeling space.
00:10:38
Speaker
Definitely, definitely. I was a photographer in another life. I guess I still am a photographer. But I definitely felt that way in the darkroom. I felt like I was in kind of a trance state when I was working, less when I was taking actual photographs. For me, it was more the process of actually creating the prints and working in them and stepping back. And I loved that state, but I remember
00:11:06
Speaker
I read, did you ever read that book, Big Magic? Oh my God, I love that book. I love that book. And I just remember she had this concept in it that really struck
Channeling Creative Ideas from the Ether
00:11:21
Speaker
me. And when you talked about artists in the form of channeling, it made me think of it. And she just talked about the ideas that,
00:11:28
Speaker
creative ideas are like floating out and around us in the ethers and they're kind of waiting for us to like grab a hold of it and you know you grab a hold of this one idea it's kind of sent down to you and you have a window a period of time where you can act upon it that you can produce on it whether that's a book you're writing or a piece of art or a project or whatever
00:11:53
Speaker
But if you don't act on it in a certain amount of time, that it kind of goes back out to the ethers for another artist to capture, to grasp. And she had told this story that I thought was like so miraculous about, she was writing this book and she had really like defined all these really like, you know, had really defined the book, the main characters in the book. The story, it was a very unique, unique story. And she-
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, it was like a freeway that was built through the middle of a rainforest and it was not built during the rainy season and they had to stop the project because they didn't take into account the rainy season and when the rainy season came
00:12:37
Speaker
literally the rainforest swallowed. It swallowed the freeway, the highway. But she ended up, for personal reasons, had to stop working, and she wasn't able to go back to it, and then kind of lost the story. She decided to change ways, and then she had another artist friend who she was pen pals with. What is that? I think it was the writer Terry Pratchett.
00:13:03
Speaker
Oh, the writer Terry Padgett was the writer that she met with, because it was Elizabeth Gilbert was the writer who wrote Big Magic. And so she met with her for lunch, and she told her all about this new story that she was writing about this freeway that was in the middle of the rainforest. Now they had to stop working, and it was swallowed up. And even details down to the characters, to everything, were similar but slightly different.
00:13:28
Speaker
And she just was blown away because she realized like in that moment that the idea like it hadn't populated it was hers for a bit of time and then she kind of yeah so somebody else picked it up with no knowledge at all and I just thought that was such a like amazing idea.
00:13:46
Speaker
that there's all these creative ideas that are kind of floating out around us. And it's kind of what I was talking about a little bit about, like the connection to the divine that can kind of stream through you. And sometimes those things stream through you as more intellectual art, but sometimes it's less intellectual. Sometimes it's just an appreciation for beauty. Sometimes it's a craft project that's more about the joy of making.
00:14:11
Speaker
So I think that it can take so many different forms. It can be about pleasure. It can be about joy. It can be about expression of emotions. It can be about communications. It can be about culture. It can be about politics. It can be commentary. It can be so many things.
00:14:30
Speaker
I think it's endlessly fascinating to me the different forms that it can take and the different roles it can serve. But it seems that we all need it in some form, like in some way. I think that everybody is creative in some small way. Yeah. Oh, I agree. I think people are creative without even identifying as creatives, you know?
00:14:53
Speaker
I think people do creative acts throughout the day, and they don't think of themselves in any way, shape, or form. Like, I don't have a creative bone in my body. I'm not an artist. You don't have to be an artist to be creative. I think we do it in how we style our hair. I think we do it in these style ways, the way we put together an outfit, how we arrange the pillows on our couch. And I think people who don't even
00:15:20
Speaker
see themselves as creative people. We are creating throughout our daily lives in everyday ways. But I think when you sit down and make a decisive choice to create, I think some real magic happens there. You know, I think that you it's like it's a whole different way of being when you're
00:15:50
Speaker
when you're really dedicating some time to being in a creative state. And it doesn't have to be, like you said, something intellectual, like writing a book. It could be like just making like a beautiful cake, you know? Yeah. I don't know. It's important. I know that much.
00:16:10
Speaker
Well, I think that's really when you're talking about like creativity for the sake of creativity, like art for art sake, less as a product or less as a commodity or a career or something that's going to be judged in some form. I think that that form of creativity sometimes is a little underrated.
00:16:31
Speaker
And, you know, like I went to art school and you spend a lot of time in art school talking about what is good art and what is, quote unquote, bad art. But I venture to make the argument that there is no such thing as bad art. Like think about the process that children go through.
00:16:50
Speaker
You know, they're not concerned when they're singing, which is a beautiful, creative act. When they're singing, they don't care if they have a good voice. It doesn't even occur to them whether they have a good voice or a bad singing voice, quote, unquote, bad. You know, when they're making art, they're just expressing themselves. They're just putting crayon to paper or, you know, washable paint, at least in my home, it's got to be washable.
00:17:15
Speaker
You know, they aren't concerned with those type of things. They are concerned with the act of creation. Yeah. And they I think that they've let go with these ideas of the perfectionism that can come along with it, because I think that is sometimes like the dangerous aspect of creativity or even being an artist is
00:17:42
Speaker
Attachment to perfectionism this idea of the outcome the final product and how important it is and then whether it is judged as good or as bad and that like that's something that I
00:17:58
Speaker
I deeply, I deeply, deeply struggled with as an artist. And I would say I still deeply struggle with letting go of that critic that is on your shoulder, that part of your ego that wants to keep you safe and stop you from producing and stop you from making art. And that critic can be really, really strong.
00:18:23
Speaker
It's a fear of judgment, right?
Creating Art for Oneself Without Judgment
00:18:25
Speaker
Like if somebody sees this and they don't like it, is that, I'm going to feel bad about that. And I think, you know, I think it's, you've got to make art for yourself. I think, um, this is something Rick Rubin and his book, the creative act away being talks about, you know, just forgetting the audience and making the art for yourself. And when you make the art for yourself, the art,
00:18:53
Speaker
is made exactly how it's supposed to be. And the audience will resonate with it if, you know, or not. Um, but that's not why that shouldn't be what drives, drives the creation. Well, in getting back to, you know, to mindfulness that it's basically releasing your attachment to the outcome.
00:19:13
Speaker
It's trusting that the outcome will take the shape that it needs to take. It's like being in that process. My God, look at 33,000 from OutKast right now. Can we just talk about his album, which is amazing and how brave it was for him to make this crazy kind of trippy jazz flute album and how far and how distant it is from
00:19:42
Speaker
his work as a rapper. And I don't know if you've listened to any interviews with him about it, but he talks about how you like really tried to put out a rap album, but just could not do it. Cause he knew that's what, that's what the audience wants from him, right? Yeah. Freaking amazing rapper, but he just could not do it. And so he just really felt like he needed to make a fucking flute album.
00:20:07
Speaker
um things kind of wild uh but so good i don't know if you listen to it new blue sun it is so good um it's like and it's it's like topping the billboard charts
00:20:20
Speaker
Um, and he left like, you know, career at the top of his game to become a flute player. But I think it's so, I think that's amazing. It's so, it's so brave and it's like really following what your creative instincts are. And I actually do believe some of the greatest art that's made is just like following your instincts and letting, allowing yourself to
00:20:44
Speaker
be who you are and express yourself the way you are because I think especially a lot of artists when they are trying to do it for a career, when they are told that their art isn't good, essentially what they are hearing is, I am not good because you identify, I can definitely speak to this and I'd be curious to hear your perspective on
Impact of Criticism on Artists
00:21:06
Speaker
it.
00:21:06
Speaker
having been an artist and tried to make a career as an artist, your entire identity is wrapped up in being an artist. My entire identity was wrapped up in being an artist and I don't think I'm alone in that. And so when you are told it is not good or you are told you cannot do it,
00:21:25
Speaker
Basically, you're being you're you're being told I'm not good. Yeah, and that is I think what really shuts people down That's why there are entire, you know industries that are available to help people Just be able to start creating again and make art again because you become you know, so shut down and that's definitely something that happened to me I actually I actually had what I would call like an art wound that was like stored within my body where I was
00:21:54
Speaker
going to a very, very good photography school, a very good art school. And up until that point, I had always received a tremendous amount of praise for the work I was doing. And I felt very confident and I felt very confident in the career I was going to have.
00:22:11
Speaker
And, you know, but I was in a very, very competitive environment in a very small school. And someone who was, you know, very important in the history of photography told me that
00:22:26
Speaker
he did not think I spoke the language of photography. And I just remember it completely devastated me. Well, you know, listen, it was a competitive environment and it was a highly critical environment intellectually. And I think he thought he was being honest.
00:22:47
Speaker
with me so I don't fault him for that but it did really it shut me down completely and I don't think I realized until that moment that how much of my self-worth as an artist and as a person was based off of what other people
00:23:06
Speaker
thought of me and the praise that I received and I had been built quite up quite a bit in that moment and it was the minute somebody and you know this person was very important in photography so it's like the worst person you ever want to be told that you're not good at it was definitely um it jarred me and you know I pushed through and interestingly enough I actually produced really good work in that workshop but
00:23:32
Speaker
It never left me. It kind of haunted me for the last year of my education to the point where I spent a lot of time that last year trying to make art
00:23:46
Speaker
in a way that was not me, in a way that I felt like I needed to, to stay current. And it left me at the point when I graduated where I could not make art. I just couldn't do it. I had to completely walk away from it. And I realized many years later, I found my way into a different career.
00:24:07
Speaker
But it cemented this lack and trust in myself because I remember thinking, oh, I'm looking at this art and it looks good to me. And if this person who is so important is telling me that it's not good, then I must not be trustworthy.
00:24:23
Speaker
And it also happened that this took place at a time where there was a very traumatic event that took place in my life that also was around trust and trust in myself. And so those kind of two things coupled together buried this message inside of me that I am not to be trusted, especially creatively. And that seeped into everything. I couldn't trust myself to decorate my home. I couldn't trust myself to make the smallest creative decisions.
00:24:53
Speaker
leapt into another career because I literally did not trust myself to do the other and You know in many ways it was a positive I had a very successful career and I learned a lot and grew a lot But it was actually in a wreck an energy session that somebody had given me where they could see this creative wound that was within my body and it wasn't just Preventing me from making art. It was making me sick
00:25:18
Speaker
Like it was making me physically ill. And I have spent the last, you know, I would say.
00:25:26
Speaker
10 years, but last few years really assertively working that creativity out, working that wound out of me, finding trust in myself again. And so that's where I do believe it's so intrinsic to the human experiences because it does produce, it can produce illness within the body. It can produce anxiety within the body.
00:25:52
Speaker
And I really believe that unprocessed creative energy will store and produce as illness and anxiety. Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I think that yeah, I think we feel like we have to have maybe this is a question like, do you think we have to have confidence? I think we feel like we have to have confidence to create and we don't, you know, I think that
00:26:19
Speaker
I had a similar situation, not as intense though. I was, this just sounds a little ridiculous actually, reflecting on it. Just say it. I was singing in the car when I was little, like to some tune, an oldie station my mom listened to. I don't remember the song. I think my mom, my mom was, you know, she was a working mom. She was an attorney. She was home with the kids most of the time because my stepdad lived in Miami most of the work week.
00:26:47
Speaker
And she had a lot going on. And I'm like singing along. And I think she just had a hard day. And she was like, honey, stop. You sound like a fishwife, like a fishmonger's wife. And I'm like, I personally didn't quite know what a fishmonger's wife sounded like. I was like, I'm going to have to look this monger word up in the dictionary later. But I knew it was bad. And it was silencing.
00:27:10
Speaker
And then I looked it up and I was like, you know, this is, I think I've maybe even asked her like, what is that? She's like, you know, she's screeching. Like, she's like, you're screeching. Cause I was like really rocking out. I'm a little kid, but it really stuck with me. And I like, I had solos at the pageants growing up in school. I had music teachers who really valued my voice, but my mom saying that to me in that moment, I've just exhausted weakness.
00:27:40
Speaker
on her part, it was really wounding. And I never like, I never really pursued any type of vocal art again after that. And I love music. I had friends that were in bands in high school. And I was always kind of yearning for that, but didn't feel like I had
00:28:04
Speaker
I just didn't feel like I could do it. And so I go to college and I decide, you know what? I'm going to take a fucking vocal class in college. I'm going to do this thing. It's going to be scary. Hopefully I don't sound like shit, but I'm just going to do it. And I did it. And I got a good grade and I got an A in it. And like I had a friend in there, it was mortified that someone I knew was in there. I was secretly hoping to just all be strangers. But there was a friend of mine in there. And I remember her like after one of our like songs, she was like,
00:28:32
Speaker
You did such a good job. Oh my God, you're such a great voice. And I was like, holy shit, it's amazing. And then later that year, some other kid asked me to be in his band. And I went to a few rehearsals with this motley crew of, I don't know, granola kids trying to start some sort of jazz funk band.
00:28:54
Speaker
I think I went to two rehearsals and then I think they just like, the whole thing just imploded and petered out. I had nothing. I was like, I was peripheral to their operations. I barely knew these people. And I was secretly glad because I was like, I'm being way over my head, dude. I cannot be the lead singer of a band at all. And this is not, I really just did the vocal class to prove something to myself. But, but.
Personal Stories: Musical Talents and Family
00:29:17
Speaker
I really, and Scotty and my husband is a great singer. He's the same in choirs. He plays a lot of instruments. He's very busy. Really? Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he's just, he likes saying.
00:29:29
Speaker
was it with Marvin Gayne? Who did he sing with? Did he sing back up in front of the governor in Georgia, like an acquired some point with I think it was Marvin Gayne or something? I was like, I can kind of see that because he's such a brilliant storyteller. Like he has this really kind of hypnotic way of telling stories that kind of makes sense. We need to we need to wrap it up. This is it.
00:29:51
Speaker
while you're weaving here and I just need to know what's for dinner. But yeah, and so like he's, you know, we've been, he's very good at singing, harmonizing. And so in the car, when we're listening to music, we'll like start singing. And I still find myself getting nervous. Like, oh, Scott is really good at this. I don't know what I'm doing. And it's just wild how one thing
00:30:19
Speaker
can make you feel not good enough to do something that feels so good when you're doing it. It doesn't matter. I think they're like micro traumas, you know what I mean? They are, and I don't mean micro to diminish it anyway, because I think that happens all the time. But I think sometimes we assume trauma has to be some violent act that takes place.
00:30:41
Speaker
And trauma can form in many, many different ways, and it does leave a mark on us. And I think especially when you are young and you are still forming your self-esteem and you're forming your sense of self, parents do. They say things to their kids, not even thinking or understanding what a massive impact that can have on you.
00:31:04
Speaker
And I think part of it is that as parents, too, we've been taught to judge ourselves so intensely that you can start to project that on to your child in some way. You know, I'll find myself like my son will be like, oh, I'm going to grow up and I'm going to be a famous artist and I'm going to be a painter and I'm going to be a singer and I'm going to do all these things. And I would find myself wanting to
00:31:32
Speaker
like take it, have him take it down a little notch to like prepare him that that's not maybe going to be possible for you because somehow that might save him the pain of going through what I went through, which is, you know, such a terrible thing to do. And I stopped myself from doing it, but I could feel this instinct of being like, oh, no, no.
00:31:53
Speaker
This isn't good. We don't want him to think that he can have this big dream They can have this big goal to be and I thought oh my gosh like it was such a clear signal to me how Small I had made myself. Yeah how I stopped creating to protect myself and then I wanted to protect him and so and I just think we do we judge everything by a product and
00:32:16
Speaker
and by what it is so rather than being able to like act for the sake of singing for the sake of singing or you know make photography for the sake of making photography it's how good are you at it and how current are you and how do you compare to somebody else and who's the best at it you know rather than just you even give awards for who's the best at it
00:32:36
Speaker
rather than just being like, wow, we've got, you know, five epic films this year, they've all got to compete for who's the best in Oscars, you know? Well, I think it goes back to that creativity is a selfish act, right? Because if you're making it for yourself, it doesn't matter how good it is, because it's just for you. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like if you're making dinner just for yourself, like, you're not going to be stressing, but it's super tasty. Because it's like, if it's not, it's okay, you're still going to eat it.
00:33:04
Speaker
Well, it's going to be infused with the love that you made it in. And I think that's the kind of double-edged sword that always happens is that when we stop striving to make something perfect, we usually come a hell of a lot closer to it. Like our final product, when it's true to ourselves, typically is very beautiful.
00:33:22
Speaker
and speaks to people and more communicative. So it's that process of letting go that I think part of that letting go too also gets us into the flow state. And I think the flow state in making art is really important. It is that meditative state that we get into, if we allow ourselves to, if we silence the critic and just start making the art and just you start to channel, like you said, you start to just produce. It's where the act becomes incredibly mindful
00:33:51
Speaker
And that doesn't matter if you're knitting a scarf or if you're painting a painting or sculpting a sculpture or creating a song or like you said, a beautiful dish.
Flow State and Mindful Meditation in Creativity
00:34:02
Speaker
Both of our husbands are chefs and I know I watch Sam all the time in the kitchen and he's such an artist.
00:34:09
Speaker
You know, he designs his plates with this incredible level of composition and balance to them. So they're aesthetically balancing to the eyes and he has this perfect tension of like complexity and simplicity and they're never too heavy handed. And then when you go to taste them, they taste that way.
00:34:30
Speaker
the different elements have come together that way. But a big part of it is that he's not following a recipe, he's just trusting his instincts. He knows intuitively how much salt it needs, how much sugar it needs, how much acid it needs. He just lets himself get into a flow state. And I always look at it, I'm like, oh my God, it's such, it's like a mindful meditation. It's like an inaction, you know?
00:34:56
Speaker
And I think that flow, it's incredibly vital that flow is present in all creative practices. But if you're constantly interrupting that flow to being like, is this good? Is this good? Is somebody going to like this? Then you're never going to get into the flow state where that inspiration, where that creative idea that dropped into Elizabeth Gilbert's mind just like did and came out to be something.
00:35:23
Speaker
I think it actually matters stuff like after you finished it, like, I don't know about you, but like, yeah, I find myself like when I worry about that stuff while I'm creating, it slows everything down to the point where like, I've been working on a novel for 10 years. Yeah. I've been, I think about it almost every day. And there have been years where I've worked on it. I don't know, maybe a total of 24 hours in a year combined. And then other years where I've worked on it a lot more.
00:35:53
Speaker
But I find that if I, and I think the thing that's been holding me back the most as this, you know, I'm a writer. I write professionally. I know what a good piece of writing is. I know what a masterpiece is. And if you start thinking about the flow state is really organic.
00:36:13
Speaker
And it's, I think Annie Lamont, the writer calls it like your first draft of something is your puke draft. You just puke it out. You have to get that first thing done. And then when you're finished, you can go back and refine and you can edit and you can polish and you can make it, you know, if you're making it for others, make it for others in that space. But the act of, the act of getting it done and to completion.
00:36:38
Speaker
should, like you said, be really just completely free of anything other than that flow state. And I have a question for you. How long does it take you? There are people who can, oh, I just work 20 minutes a day or an hour. I've got to have a block. I've got to have at least two to three hours of time to really, it takes me about 30 minutes to get into a flow state, if not 45, to really let go all the shit
00:37:07
Speaker
And then, you know, then you're just running with it and you can run with it for as long as, you know, for hours. But I'm not someone, those people who just, I mean, ideas strike and I write them down and I have moments where I know like I'm having inspiration, it just comes to me and I got to get it down quickly. I have those, but to really dig in, I have to have, I don't know. I need time blocks and that's hard.
00:37:36
Speaker
I for me if I'm writing two hours two hours seems to be that also seems to be like my window of creativity like after that two hours is done I'm kind of done and granted you know I'm not writing a novel like you are I'm writing from you know a place of you know my work as a healer and
00:37:59
Speaker
It's a different type of writing, but I find that I need about two hours and I need to be able to really dig into that space and I need to just completely let it flow. And then after about two hours, I do, I mean, sometimes my body wants to go a little bit longer, but that seems to be like this creative, like,
00:38:18
Speaker
It's like my jolt of creative energy I have for that window and then I need to stop and kind of move into something else and then come back to that. I also have learned that I need to have a lot of plates spinning. I'm a manifest or generator in human design. I am designed to have multiple projects and plates spinning at all times and I need to be able to kind of hop from them.
00:38:45
Speaker
where that was actually a very liberating thing for me to understand because for a long time I thought that that was wrong in some way because I wasn't spending all night in a studio working. But that's really what I need to feel creative motivation and excitement and interest. I will say though, when I was doing photography, that was different.
00:39:08
Speaker
When I would shoot, I like to go out, get my shots, and be done with it. Shooting was not my favorite part. But the darkroom portion, I would typically five hours. I would be there for four to five hours, and I'd be deeply creative in that four to five hour period of time. So I don't know what it was about that process. It is slower. There is a lot of back and forth with the process of making photographs.
00:39:38
Speaker
And it's a different creative output in your mind too than when you're writing. Because writing is, in my opinion, it's a more, I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but it's like a more saturated form of making art where you're just sitting out and so much is flowing out of you and it's coming out so rapidly that it takes a different energy level out of me than making photographs do.
00:40:00
Speaker
Um, making photographs for me is a slower process. There's more reflection. There is a lot of reflection where you're stepping back and looking at it and examining and saying, okay, I'm going to tweak here and then going back in. So photography for me, I always enjoyed the dark room because it was a very methodical, very quiet and very reflective process.
00:40:20
Speaker
that I really enjoyed. But I think that's also kind of unique to that form of artworks. I think the type of art you're doing definitely changes, you know, how much you can do or are capable of doing. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, and one thing that I have done recently, which is new for me is, you know,
00:40:44
Speaker
There's a mentality like you start something and there's like a progression to it that makes sense, you know, the right way to make a piece of art.
00:40:56
Speaker
I mean, I can't this book by Rick Rubin, the creative act away being has actually like completely like kind of blown my mind. I recommend it to anyone. Um, I have the book. I haven't started it yet, but he, I listened to an interview with him about it and he blows my mind. Yeah. He's a, he's a brilliant conduit of connection and creativity. I don't even know what he is. He's, he's something special on earth. Um, but
00:41:23
Speaker
He talks about how, I don't know, he just talks about creativity is in the freedom of it and to like not feel like you have to do something a certain way. If it's not coming to you, if it's not working that way, do it another way. Like you make your own rules. You don't have to do, you can change your rules in any given moment to serve the act of creation. So like I've been writing chapter by chapter, chapter by chapter.
00:41:52
Speaker
And then I get stuck. I'm like, I get bored with a chapter. Or I'm like, I don't know where to go from here. And so I've been finding like, you know what? I'm just going to start a new chapter. Or I'm just going to go back to a chapter that I didn't quite finish two weeks ago. And I'm going to just dive in there.
Embracing Nonlinear Creative Processes
00:42:08
Speaker
And so I've been kind of writing all over this book. And it's been a game changer. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, I didn't have to do it this way that they tell you to do it.
00:42:22
Speaker
the way that you're taught how to build the narrative arc and all the things. Like I'm doing it the way that works for me. I've started like journaling before I start writing, like journaling about the storyline. And then like I've created a journal practice to in the process of writing the novel that has really helped me like clarify thoughts before going into the writing zone. And I'm just making it up as I go. I have no idea what I'm
00:42:50
Speaker
doing. I've never completed a novel before. I started three, but I'm like hell bent on this fucker because I've been doing it for a decade. And I'm like, this is happening. This is happening. And you were not letting this project go. And it's okay to let projects go. Sometimes she's like, this wasn't for me to finish, but
00:43:08
Speaker
Yeah, there is an art. I read that somewhere the other day where someone was saying, I think it was, oh, her name will come to me. She's Mel Robbins. She was saying that basically like quitters win, that people don't understand that when you actually make a conscious choice to walk away from a job,
00:43:28
Speaker
or a creative project or a marriage or whatever it is, you make a conscious choice to walk away from something that's not serving you anymore that you are winning. And that's typically where you have this creative insight or inspiration that comes to you in something better. Now, if you're walking away because you're afraid, you're afraid you're not good at it, all the same, that's a different story. You're losing in that moment. The fear is winning in that moment.
00:43:50
Speaker
And I thought that was so brilliant because I do think that's true. I think sometimes you can quit. Sometimes you've exhausted your energy on a creative idea. Maybe it belongs to somebody else now. But I do think you have to really give yourself permission to work creatively in whatever fashion serves you. I work the way you're talking about. I don't write in a linear fashion.
00:44:12
Speaker
I have like the outline of what I wanna touch on and then I pop around depending upon what's striking me. So I have like kind of like a brain dump page where I'm writing and so if like let's say a couple of paragraphs from what I know is another chapter comes to me, I'll go and I'll write those and then maybe I'll come back to them later.
00:44:28
Speaker
But I have to just when inspiration strikes me and when ideas strike me I have to get them out and I have to get them out on the page because I also believe that Creative projects take up energy in space in your brain. Yeah, so if you don't get them out you can be spinning There can be too many in there. So sometimes so I actually have a file that is other books other creative projects other things I want to write that when I get
00:44:57
Speaker
you know, inspiration strikes, I'll go and just start writing in it and dump it. And then it's out of my head. And then I can go back to what I'm actively working on. But I, once I started giving myself permission to honor the way my energy works, the way I want to create, all of a sudden that creative block started to unlodge. It started to dismantle, you know? So I think you have to really honor that. And once again, whether that means you're cooking,
00:45:27
Speaker
or whether it's designing your home or whether it is writing a book or painting, coloring, it doesn't matter. It's like how do you get into your flow state and allowing that to, I think also just to be for yourself to like it. And also like what's the, what's the word selfish mean? I think about this a lot in like self-care.
00:45:49
Speaker
where people are like, oh, I feel like I'm being selfish if I take care of myself, or I feel like I'm being selfish if I take time to create from the rest.
Rebranding Selfishness as Self-care
00:45:59
Speaker
Being selfish isn't a bad thing. It's self-care. It's taking care of yourself. It's preserving yourself. If you want to be available to other people, then if you want to be of service to anybody else, you have to be selfish. And I think we need to rebrand the word selfish because it's not a bad thing.
00:46:19
Speaker
It's really not. And I think art intrinsically needs to be selfish. It needs to start from a selfish place. It needs to start from a place of just wanting to create that will then allow you to translate it into something that maybe isn't selfish anymore. Maybe it's something that helps somebody else.
00:46:40
Speaker
Maybe it's something that inspires somebody else. Maybe not. Maybe it's a great meal you make that somebody else enjoys. But I don't believe there's anything wrong with art being selfish. Selfishness is something that's vital to all of our lives, I think, if we want to be healthy. Well, I think watching TV is just a selfish act. It's something we do. Yeah. We take the time to do it. We do it when no one else is around, so we don't want to be interrupted.
00:47:10
Speaker
So I think we do selfish things for, for pleasure all the time. And I think, you know, we need to do a better job, but it's a passive experience watching television, right? There's no, yes, it's, it's a very passive. Um, and so like, I think I love, I love your two hour window. Cause think about two hours is like two shows, like how many times, how many shows on us, let's be honest, like, um, you know,
00:47:38
Speaker
TV is out there, man. And we all watch a lot of it. At least a lot of us watch a lot of it. If you just carved out two hours of time, like think about how much time you spend doing other things that are how, but two hours just to make something could just be like picking up some flowers from the grocery store and arranging them, you know, on your dining table, it's spending an hour. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's just important
00:48:04
Speaker
to create, it's important to do, it's important to take time to be selfish and be activated in making and doing for no reason other than doing.
00:48:15
Speaker
And I think also too, especially if your profession is wrapped, like your creative act is wrapped up in your profession, I think it's even more important to find other creative outlets. Like my mom is the perfect example of somebody who just like lives creativity.
Infusing Creativity into Everyday Life
00:48:34
Speaker
She was a great cook and that was her job for a long time, but she makes the most beautiful floral arrangements. They're incredible.
00:48:42
Speaker
So she would volunteer her time at floral shops on Valentine's Day and do these incredible arrangements that just gave her beautiful joy to do. You know, she was a great painter. She would just sit in the living room. I remember one time she bought this set of TV trays from this thrift store and she painted six individual rooster motifs on these particular, like the course of a movie. We watched a movie and my mom painted six different rooster motifs that were just
00:49:11
Speaker
Beautiful. And so she just infused her love of art and creating into everything she did. It wasn't her profession per se, but it was in everything that she did. And I always felt like, oh, I'm going to feel, I always fueled my creativity into what I was doing professionally.
00:49:27
Speaker
And what I found is I was trying to release this block that I had to start making the art for the sake of art's sake. So I'm very lucky. One of my friends, Becky Cardenas, is an unbelievably beautiful floral artist. They're sculptural and incredible.
00:49:44
Speaker
So she gifted me for my birthday a floral arranging class and taught me kind of the foundations of these beautiful arrangements that I'd always wanted to make. And so then I just started going to Whole Foods and getting flowers and then taking time for myself like on Fridays and trying to make an arrangement. And it was the most healing.
00:50:04
Speaker
And I could feel my creativity coming alive again. I could feel it waking up. And so I think that it's so like creating a beautiful home, like creating a space that's beautiful to sit within. I think that there's all these different ways
00:50:20
Speaker
that we can infuse creativity into our life. And maybe it's involved in our profession. Maybe it's not. I mean, I'd venture to say that creativity is involved in every perfection, whether you consider that art or not, that the creative act is present in everything you do. But I think if you are a working artist, it's really important that you find a way to infuse other aspects of creativity into your life. So you can stay stimulated and you can get into that flow state and be open
00:50:51
Speaker
like Andre 3000 to different avenues that may speak to you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, flowers, I love, I love the idea of flowers because it's, it's a creative act. You can do start to finish in a short amount of time and it doesn't require a huge financial investment. Um, you can't really go wrong. You can't really go wrong with the floral arrangement. I mean, maybe if you really tried, like you put them in upside down or something.
00:51:19
Speaker
You know, I think that could be considered a work of art in itself. But you know, I think, I think that's, I think that's a key part is just knowing this, if you have to just start, just start where you are, start where you are, start with something that's manageable.
Sharon Stone's Creative Journey During Quarantine
00:51:40
Speaker
You know, maybe it's like getting a little color, paint by number, and you just do it while you're watching the show.
00:51:47
Speaker
Oh my God. I watched CBS Sunday morning. Um, cause we had this special on Sharon stone last weekend. It blew me away. So during the, um, during the quarantine, someone gave her, got her a paint by numbers, like.
00:52:02
Speaker
Oh, I saw that. Did you see that? And so she started doing paint by numbers and she had painted a bit as a child. So she did do that. And now she is, she's creating these incredible abstract art paintings. They're really cool. I was blown away by how quote unquote good they are. I deemed them quite good anyways. And this art critic deemed them as quite good and they were beautiful. And now she's showing in galleries everywhere, has created this whole other career for herself and this other chapter.
00:52:31
Speaker
It just blew me away that you can have, because the other thing too is that we have chapters in our lives where we do different things and have different creative ventures. And I thought, here is this woman who's written, she's produced, she's directed, she's acted, and now she's in this next window of her life and she's producing something really, really beautiful. Definitely spoke to me and is speaking to other people. And it started because she got a paint by numbers kit.
00:52:59
Speaker
And then it's been something that's literally, she's making money off it. She's selling these paintings are 10 plus thousand dollars every time they sell. And so I just thought, wow, like I do think that's the magic of art. When we really let its magic weave into our life, magical things happen, right? Like the beautiful things start to produce itself.
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah, it really is. So I think that's the beauty of creativity and the beauty of art is it can touch our soul, it can speak to
Art as Mindfulness Practice
00:53:28
Speaker
us. And whether that's art we're making or a beautiful film that we watch or a painting that we look at, a great television show, it's woven into our culture.
00:53:41
Speaker
And when we really allow it to envelop us, I think it can really take us to the next level. And I think it can inspire us to bring more beauty into our life in whatever form that is. And I think that's as mindful as you get. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
00:54:00
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Kylie. This has been wonderful, inspiring. Thank you. It's always inspiring to talk with you. And it was fun to, you know, dive into a subject that's so close to both of our hearts. Hopefully maybe next year we'll do this episode and hopefully I'll be making photography again. I'm almost there. I'm getting there. Bit by bit. All right. Well, thank you, Nan. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Talk to you soon.
00:54:32
Speaker
Don't forget to follow us on social at Everyday Mindful Podcast on Instagram and Facebook. And if you liked our little chat, please subscribe. It would be great if you gave us a review. All the stars, please. Same time, same place next week. Bye. Bye.