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Fake It 'Till Ya Make It: An Anecdote to Imposter Syndrome
70 Plays2 years ago
Is Imposture Syndrome a response to toxic culture? In Episode 6, Kiley and Nan talk through ways to navigate feelings of insecurity, and the reality that competence doesn't have to equate confidence. Sometimes, faking it until you make it is just the magic needed for manifestation.
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Transcript
Introduction to Everyday Mindful Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, I'm Kylie Wyn Efron. And I'm Nan Cavanaugh, and welcome to Everyday Mindful, a space for real talk on weaving the magic of mindfulness into our daily lives. Let's dig in. Hey, Kylie, how's it going?
00:00:22
Speaker
Hey Nan, I'm good. How are you? I'm good.
Eclipse Revelations and Reiki Experience
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm good. It's eclipse season. We are recording in between a lunar and a solar eclipse. So I feel like things are, you know, a little relevatory, a little more relevatory than usual these days, which can be a good thing, but also can be overwhelming.
00:00:45
Speaker
Yes, I am really feeling it. My body is really feeling it. I'm really sensitive to astrological patterns. And I also just did my, excuse me, my Reiki master training and I am feeling a massive detox. So you might be able to hear it in my voice a little bit today. I am, I'm feeling drained and I'm definitely feeling that kind of purge that you get with eclipses. Like you get it with the full moon and then the eclipse just magnifies it on such an intense level.
00:01:15
Speaker
My husband thinks I'm crazy when I say this, but I know it to be true. I know you know it's true as well. We all know it's true, whether we want to admit it or not. For sure. For sure.
Understanding Imposter Syndrome
00:01:25
Speaker
Well, today we are talking about imposter syndrome and it's kind of a big convo. I think as women, we hear it a lot more than men. Um, and I think, you know, starting with the definition, I think for folks who aren't super familiar with what imposter syndrome is probably a good place to start. Sounds good.
00:01:54
Speaker
So imposter syndrome is the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally, despite being high performing in external or objective ways. So it's kind of like feeling like a phony, even though you're a total badass. Is that kind of a way to sum it up?
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think so, definitely. And I think it's really interesting because we opened up with talking about it, something that as women you hear talked about a lot. I think it's a part of like most women in leadership conferences. It's, you know,
00:02:32
Speaker
was a part of Lean In. You hear it a lot in conversations, but I read something really interesting yesterday that the majority of studies that were done around, and I hope I'm quoting this accurately, the majority of studies done around it did not include women. That the majority of the research that was done on it was actually done early on and did not include women, and maybe that has changed, but I thought that
00:02:57
Speaker
of interesting because I do think it is a somewhat of a phenomenon that definitely impacts women more just because I think of the societal programming that we experience early on like some of the conditioning and once again I always feel like we have to talk about this sometimes from like our vantage point from your and I's generational vantage point in our experience
00:03:23
Speaker
I understand their different generations have different experiences with the messaging they have
Societal Influences on Women and Success
00:03:28
Speaker
received. Different people identify differently. They identify and their relationship to gender is different than perhaps mine is. So I'm just speaking from my perspective and want to say that and honor that. But I think that.
00:03:42
Speaker
in our generations women received a pretty consistent messaging about an especially around the age where performance academically starts to become more important so around like sixth seventh grade you know all of a sudden they see what you know you hear they see women's
00:04:00
Speaker
math scores go down, science scores go down. All of a sudden we started receiving messages that being smart, being outspoken is not the most favorable thing. You're not getting a lot of societal messaging that supports you feeling like you can really stand out and that you should really excel. So I think it makes sense because I do think that we've been taught to hold ourselves and stay small.
00:04:29
Speaker
to be really likable. I would say that's the big, I can tell you as a woman in a leadership position, I have no problem with speaking my mind and saying what I need to say and being direct, but I always experience the hangover afterwards of, oh my God,
00:04:50
Speaker
Are they not gonna like me? Are they gonna think I'm a bitch? Was that too intense? Because you get that messaging. I'll often tell people, I'll have people say like, oh, you're intimidating. And I'm like, intimidating? I don't think I really said that any less direct or any more straightforward than any man has probably said in a work setting. But for some reason when I'm saying it, it's coming across as intimidating.
00:05:13
Speaker
or intents in some way. And so I definitely have been acutely aware of that messaging my entire life. And so I think that plays into imposter syndrome.
Personal Experiences with Imposter Syndrome
00:05:27
Speaker
I think there's a lot of different things that play into imposter syndrome. But I have definitely had many experiences in my life that despite my capabilities,
00:05:38
Speaker
Despite how good I am at the job, sometimes I can be the best person in the room. I still feel like I'm faking it. I still feel like they're gonna, someone's gonna find me out and know that I'm not that smart or I'm not that capable or they're gonna really know what a shit show I am in the background.
00:05:59
Speaker
I remember the first time I ever heard the, I think it was in the book, Lean In. It was like the first time I ever heard that statement about imposter syndrome. And I was like, oh my God, I feel that way a lot. I don't feel that way as much now as I used to, but I used to, especially as a woman in my twenties and my thirties, I felt that way a lot of the time, a lot of the time.
00:06:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think that we are, I know I've been told many times, like, you know, you should probably tone it down a little bit or, you know, wouldn't go on a go and done some blazing or maybe you should rain it in.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yes. And I feel like men are just the natural assumption is that they're going to walk in confident and laying it out on the line and a woman has to do a little bit more of a dance.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I think in doing that dance is where we question what the hell we're doing. Because if we were given permission to just walk in and lay it on the line, we would walk in with that internal confidence that you need to lay it on the line.
00:07:14
Speaker
And I was reading this Harvard Business Review article, preparing for the day. I read that same article. Yeah, and this idea. Yeah, it seems to be very important in regards to imposter syndrome. And one of the things I really took from that is that we really need to fix the culture, not the individual. Like the phrase imposter syndrome implies that it is
00:07:36
Speaker
It is the person who has something wrong that's doing the questioning. And in reality, it is the culture, it is the society, it's the environment that is instilling that insecurity. Even if someone is very competent, you don't have to be confident.
00:07:56
Speaker
you can be competent and not have ego and bravado and still execute and be the smartest person in the room. But I think that there is a real, there's just a real cultural disconnect between women's understanding of their place in workspaces because of our patriarchal
00:08:25
Speaker
you know, upbringing, unfortunately. I agree. I thought that article touched on something that was really interesting to the idea that you can be unsure and still be competent, that they're not mutually exclusive from one another. She also really touched on it from a perspective of race too, which I thought made a lot of sense and was really valid. And I felt that the
00:08:48
Speaker
argument was twofold a little bit because I 100% agree it is the, I don't think it's something inherent to women biologically because we're right now we're talking about this from a perspective of women. I don't think it's biologically inherent to us. I absolutely think it is a learned thought process that we have been conditioned. It's a condition.
00:09:09
Speaker
It has been conditioned into us. There is a seed of doubt of capability that has been implanted within women for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. So there is also a cultural accumulation of the way we learn that moves through our bodies, through ourselves, through generations.
00:09:32
Speaker
that we experience and it builds and it's accumulative, in my opinion, in the way sometimes it's in the unconscious that's there, that's super present. So I absolutely believe we are very focused on how an individual should push through it and not so focused on changing the environment that's creating it in the first place. But I actually believe it's twofold because they're not mutually exclusive of one another.
Imposter Syndrome vs. 'Fake it Till You Make it'
00:09:56
Speaker
Yes, we have to change the environment that's creating it, but it doesn't change the fact that as humans, we're having this experience, and we need to understand it, and we need to be able to process those emotions, and we need to have some practical tools that helps us move through it. And I think there is also a difference between imposter syndrome and faking it until you make it. And I know you and I have had a lot of conversations,
00:10:24
Speaker
about faking it till you make it. So I'm going to let you share some of your experiences on that, and then I'll share mine, but I think it's interesting. So I kind of feel like I am a professional at faking it till I make it. My entire career trajectory outside of being a writer has really been me taking on jobs, to be honest, on paper, completely unqualified for.
00:10:50
Speaker
Um, so, you know, my first, my first, I would say like full time career driven job was as a magazine editor. Prior to that, I was a freelance writer had never worked in editing, never worked in publishing. Um, it was just through, you know, a recommendation from a former editor that I was a good writer and might make a good fit for to take over her position. And honestly, I think the publisher just knew he could get me cheap because I was a teacher.
00:11:22
Speaker
And I asked if I'd be interested in the job. I interviewed for the job. I got the job. And it was amazing. But it was definitely like, how did I get this job? Are you sure? You really want to offer me this job? I'm young. I've never worked in publishing other than as a writer. This doesn't really make sense. No editing background. But OK. But I think the interview went well, he said.
00:11:49
Speaker
He sensed your inner battle. Yeah, I think I just maybe projected. No, actually, I think it really had to do with just knowing he could get me on the cheap. I disagree. I disagree. And then when I left that job, I applied for a position at a contemporary museum as a director of marketing and communications and now don't have a degree in marketing, never really
00:12:16
Speaker
The magazine I worked for was owned by a marketing agency in one window of time. It was acquired by a media outlet under my reign, but I didn't really work in marketing. I did a little ad copywriting, but that's about it.
00:12:36
Speaker
Um, I saw this job. I knew I needed to transition from media work because the stress of the deadline churn was just too much. And I went in and I applied and I went into this big, beautiful board room with like 20 people sitting at a huge table and had to do this whole presentation. And I was so nervous because I didn't know the first thing about marketing. I mean, I had like done a little social media for our restaurant and
00:13:07
Speaker
I had a basic understanding of some design software. My career was not in marketing up to that point.
00:13:22
Speaker
low and behold, I think I'm just like queen of the PowerPoint. I was offered that job. I remember at the University of North Florida, the head of their marketing department was one of the main hiring agents in this process. And I was just like,
00:13:40
Speaker
I don't even know what I had asked her. Oh, she was retiring. And I was like, honestly, I told her, I confessed. I was like, I have no idea. I haven't got this job. And she's like, Oh, you got it because you killed the interview. Like you killed it. You blew everyone else out of the water. You were so prepared. You talked about a lot of different outside the box approaches to, to helping the museum. And you just, you killed it. And I was like, Oh, okay. Amazing. Um, and I think.
00:14:10
Speaker
You know, going into both those experiences, not feeling qualified. So just leaning into what I do know and what I can do well and just putting aside things that I knew I couldn't really speak to and just way over speaking on the things I could.
Embracing Authenticity in the Workplace
00:14:35
Speaker
is how I landed it. And I did definitely feel like I was faking it at the time and still kind of do sometimes in my current, I'm working now, I work in a marketing agency and I do, I do messaging platforms and I
00:14:51
Speaker
do PR work, and I do all the things that I have learned to do through these other jobs. And now I have the title and now on paper, I definitely fit the bill for applying for any job in that career space. But yeah.
00:15:12
Speaker
What I think what you're talking about too, which is something that has given me my greatest moments of success is you were, you kind of leaned into what you're passionate about and you leaned into the authentic part of your capabilities, the authenticity of who you are.
00:15:27
Speaker
and that's what sold them and i had many experiences like that as well i would consistently find myself and opportunities that i was not technically on paper qualified for but i would talk my way into them and i don't mean talk my way into it from the perspective of like bullshitting i mean i would be passionate and authentic i remember when i
00:15:46
Speaker
was I was working for a creative recruiting agency outside of college. I had wanted to learn about art and commerce after I graduated art school. And I worked for a basically a recruiting firm for artists, for designers, architects, things like that. And I got to this point where I'm like, well, I'm tired of getting other artists jobs. I want to go back to grad school. I'm going to go back to waiting tables.
00:16:07
Speaker
And I had been in quote unquote fine dining and for many years in the East Bay prior and I had stopped and so I found this great restaurant that was opening up by this new kind of rock star chef that everybody had their eye on. It was kind of a darling of the local food critic.
00:16:24
Speaker
And so I walked in there thinking like, oh, I know what I'm doing. I know wine. I know fine dining. This is great. And I didn't have, I was on lunch break from my other job. So I didn't have a resume on me. So I just popped in and the GM was like, she's like, well, just sit down and talk for a few minutes. And then later on you can get me your resume. And I was like, okay. And we had the most incredible talk and she loved me and she hired me on the spot. She's like, you're amazing. You are preaching the School of Hospitality. I'm hiring you.
00:16:52
Speaker
You're a rockstar. And so I show up for, she never worried about my resume. I didn't even think about my resume at that point because I was sure I was qualified. And then I sat down for our first day of training and there was like 13, you know, servers there and employers, and they all started standing up and saying where they were from. And they were all from these like,
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah. Like the best restaurants in the city. Like the most critically acclaimed restaurants in the city with incredible experience. And I was like, oh my God, I went to go stand up and nobody knew where I was from because it was from a different area. But I very quickly realized that I did not know what I was doing. Like I was not qualified to be there in the way these other people were. And then they started talking about food and they started talking about wine in a way that I had never even heard. And I was like, oh my God.
00:17:38
Speaker
What am I going to do? I really want this job. So I went home and I studied as hard as I could. I learned everything and I came back and I killed it. Like I murdered everybody. I ended up being like, they thought I was the best server. They thought I was the best employee, the most knowledgeable. And then quickly from there, I ended up landing myself a job in like one of the most critically acclaimed restaurants in San Francisco.
00:18:02
Speaker
making a ton of money where it was very hard to get these jobs, but I would just go in and I would charm them. And I was being authentic about what I was truly passionate about. And then I put in as much work as you could possibly put in to be as good as I needed to be.
00:18:19
Speaker
And the same thing happened to me when we opened a restaurant. To be honest with you, you know, my husband had been a cook and a chef in many restaurants. I had, you know, six, seven months in a management position before we moved here.
00:18:34
Speaker
We both knew a lot about fine dining we knew a lot about food but we didn't know shit about running a restaurant we didn't really know anything about leadership and i just leaned into my confidence around that and of course we made a lot of mistakes i definitely made mistakes.
00:18:51
Speaker
But my first ignorance would get me in the door, and then when I would realize that there was more for me to learn, I would lean into what I was good at and what I was passionate about, which was hospitality and what was wine, and using my personality to really make and create an experience for people. And then I would study and learn whatever I needed to about what I didn't know.
00:19:15
Speaker
And then through that process, I learned so much about business, so much about marketing, so much about leadership, you know, a lot of bumps along the way. But quite frankly, there was nothing on paper that should have allowed my husband and I to be successful in an industry where very few people are successful. I found that with teaching yoga, I found that with everything I've done.
00:19:38
Speaker
And I remember my, one of my, you know, the person I considered to be my longtime teacher, one of my greatest yoga teachers, said to me in our yoga teacher training, she said that there's like a philosophy in yoga that if you try to embody the teacher that you admire.
00:19:55
Speaker
Don't worry about coming out of the gate being exactly who you are. Try to embody walk the walk until it's yours. Talk like that teacher. She said literally walk the way they walk in a room. Step the way they step.
00:20:11
Speaker
enunciate the way they enunciate until it is your own. And then what will happen is because you felt into the frequency of that success, into what you want to embody, then all of a sudden your true message will come through, your true authenticity will come through.
00:20:28
Speaker
And that I definitely found as a teacher. I definitely did my best to embody the teacher I admired because it resonated with me. And then it was did not take long before my own truth started to come through that voice. But I really believe that that fake it till you make it philosophy works because in order to manifest anything you want, if you want to manifest a richer life, a more abundant life, a job,
00:20:55
Speaker
anything, you have to feel into the frequency and let yourself experience it before it's real, like before it's manifested, right? Because if you can't feel into it and experience it viscerally, there's no way to actually do it. So I do think
00:21:13
Speaker
that that is the difference between fake it until you make it and imposter syndrome. I actually think faking it until you make it is a good antidote to imposter syndrome. But I do think what will happen, even when you're faking it until you make it, is you will start to hear those messages. You will hear those voices in your head that tell you you're not good enough. And that's the difference. I think that's when your ego is talking to you. And that's when you have to really pay attention to what those messages feel like.
00:21:43
Speaker
When I sat in that room and I understood, okay, I am not as qualified as the people in this room, what I didn't hear in that moment is, I'm not as good. I didn't hear that. I kind of knew you can do this. Go out, study, work your ass off, and then we'll see where you land.
00:22:01
Speaker
But when I'm in a situation where I start hearing the voice that's like, I'm not really qualified. I'm a fraud. I'm not really good at this. When, when, when are they going to find out that I'm really a mess? That is your ego trying to keep you safe. That's what our ego does, right? It does try to keep us safe on a physical level, which is an important thing.
00:22:21
Speaker
There are some good things about our ego, but it is trying to keep us safe and it's going to produce that through the emotion of fear. So I do think that's where it's like using that tactic of coming back to your body and being mindful of what those thoughts feel like vibrationally in the body when
Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt
00:22:40
Speaker
you're hearing them.
00:22:40
Speaker
You don't even yeah, I do and I think you know Taking that moment listening listening to the narrative identifying why am I feeling this way and then trying to just set it aside like I know I
00:22:58
Speaker
like thinking of fear as an object that you're just gonna keep to the left on the desk and then you can come back to it. But when you're in it, I know fear can be so, like I know I've been in situations
00:23:12
Speaker
where I'm in a room full of highly qualified, confident people talking about a subject that I, you know, I'm at the table for a reason, for sure, but definitely don't feel maybe as knowledgeable on the subject matter and nervous to articulate a point that I know is going to be fruitful for everyone to hear. And in that moment, really just
00:23:40
Speaker
just trying to set that fear aside, get the thought out into the world or the action, whatever it may be, and then let the fear back in if you need to and reevaluate or just keep it aside and deal with it later.
00:24:01
Speaker
It's really hard when you're in the situation and you're having that inner narrative forcing you to not feel secure and confident in the space you're in, to mitigate that and still perform the way that you know you're capable of.
00:24:24
Speaker
I know a woman who does a lot of media training work with people. So I work in media and a lot of people are nervous to get on TV and nervous about doing interviews and public speaking. And this woman, Charlene Shirk is her name. She's amazing.
00:24:43
Speaker
you know, she encourages people to kind of like, before doing an interview, and I think at Ted Lasso, I feel like address this in some capacity, it must be like a common technique, but to kind of just envision yourself physically as like a bigger person, like stand in front of a mirror and, and put your arms up and take a deep breath and just like,
00:25:08
Speaker
create kind of this like field of power and confidence before moving moving into the space you need to move into to to have that to have that kind of
00:25:25
Speaker
that feeling of assuredness that sometimes, you know, sometimes makes it tough to, to, I don't know, to perform on the way that you know you can. I mean, I think so many of us are really experts in our fields, but we get into areas where, or spaces, I should say that, you know,
00:25:52
Speaker
That we are we don't feel like we don't feel like we can speak to what we know we can speak to for whatever reason Yeah, well, I also think
00:26:05
Speaker
It's normal. I think it's really normal to fear, to feel fear before you do something that's important. Before you do something that you really want or that's going to be meaningful in your life. I always experience fear and I almost always have a moment where I'm like, Oh, I don't want to do this. I'm not going to do this. Like I don't need to go teach yoga or I don't need to start a podcast like
00:26:23
Speaker
Maybe this is stupid. Like I literally start having some of those thoughts that come to my mind. Or then I'll start sometimes getting the thoughts that are like, you're not good enough. You're not really smart enough. You don't really have what it takes to do this. Like who do you think you are?
00:26:39
Speaker
And so I think it's once again coming back to like, what are the quality of the thoughts that are speaking to you?
Thoughts vs. Identity
00:26:44
Speaker
So one technique that I've used that's really helpful for me is to remember that my thoughts are not who I am. They're literally a chemical reaction taking place in my brain. They are not who I am. I am the witness. That is all I am. I am witnessing everything.
00:27:00
Speaker
And so when I start to realize that like my thoughts aren't who I am, I also realize they're not true. Like they're not the content of myself. And so that helps me if I'm like, okay, well, if my thoughts aren't who I am and I'm just the witness, then let me witness them. And what are my thoughts saying to me? You know, are my thoughts talking to me like a friend? Because if you and I were having a conversation and you were telling me,
00:27:25
Speaker
Oh, they only hired me because I need the money. I'd be like, girl, they hired you because you're unbelievably smart and thought provoking. And, you know, you bring incredible value to, you see the world in a more complex manner. And that's the differences. Like when, so when your thoughts are speaking to you like that, you can trust them.
00:27:47
Speaker
But when they're saying disparaging things to you, that's not true. It's not true. I think there's truth to saying, I recognize that some of these people in this room have more experience than I do. So I'm going to tap into that wisdom. I'm going to listen to them. I'm going to try to absorb as much as possible. And at the same time, also know that I have something to offer. Otherwise, you wouldn't be there. I wouldn't be in the room. You wouldn't even get the opportunity to be in the room.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah, you got there. Somebody else didn't get there. There's a job for everybody and it's not everybody all of the time. And there's a lot of qualified people who all interview for one job and only one person gets it. And it's not because those other people suck and it's not because they're not worthy as people. It's because it wasn't their job. It wasn't their moment. It wasn't their time.
00:28:40
Speaker
And I don't know about you, but I also experience imposter syndrome with parenting quite a bit. Do you experience it with parenting? Yeah, I do. I question my parenting all the time. I question particularly because I think I'm trying to parent in a way that's maybe outside of the norm.
00:29:06
Speaker
um and trying to plan it from a more intuitive place um i also feel like i
00:29:16
Speaker
I'm dealing with my children in health, and I don't know if you feel this when you're in a doctor setting and you're hearing something, and not even just with my kids, but myself as well. I've done the research. I've read the journal articles. I feel like I have a layman's, more than a layman's understanding of
00:29:36
Speaker
of what I'm in there for. And I let the doctor, you know, make me feel like I am not a doctor. And I, so I usually open with, I know I'm not a doctor, but I've read it like five or six journals on this. And in my mind, I'm like, a hundred bucks. You probably haven't read any unless you're at a research hospital, highly likely, highly unlikely your doctor is doing a bunch of research. And
00:30:06
Speaker
And it's taken years for me to actually like trust and speak from place of confidence, particularly in like medical settings and question and feel secure in my questions and not feel like.
00:30:23
Speaker
not allow myself to be made to feel like I don't know what I'm talking about, even though I don't have a PhD in whatever it is. I try to be respectful, but I don't know. Those are spaces as a parent in particular that I have found
00:30:42
Speaker
a lot of questioning. Yeah, I imposter syndrome in the situations of dealing with matters of health and doctors. That used to be something I actually struggled with a lot because I discovered that I had a gluten intolerance about 15 years prior to anybody talking about what a gluten intolerance was.
00:31:05
Speaker
It was 2007 when I discovered this and there were no studies to support it. I had found a book that I found this holistic doctor, this functional medicine doctor that really led me on this journey to determine I had been sick for like a year and I couldn't get well. Through food elimination and following his steps, discovered that I had a sensitivity to gluten.
00:31:31
Speaker
And right around that time, I ended up also moving to Jacksonville with my husband. And so I had to find all new doctors, all new situations, and I cannot even tell you how many shades of crazy people tried to paint me. Gluten sensitivity was not a thing. Gluten free was not a thing. Very few people were doing it. Literally, I would be laughed at. I had a doctor tell me it was like,
00:31:56
Speaker
witchcraft once. I mean, I'm not even making this up like that bad. I was told once by an allergist that there was one study in Europe that had shown that people without celiac disease felt better when they removed wheat from their diet. They no longer were having symptoms of feeling unwell or sick anymore, but there was still no definitive proof that basically if you didn't have celiac disease, you didn't have a gluten intolerance.
00:32:26
Speaker
And I had just shown like a level 10 of allergy to wheat as far as my skin. He's like, it's either in your skin or it's in your gut or it's nowhere. And all mine were upper respiratory. And I dealt with that all the time. And I would leave Sessions crying. I left a session with a very respectable, very, very respectable gastrointestinal group here in town. I met with the doctor and I was concerned. I wanted to look at celiac. I wanted to look at
00:32:53
Speaker
Other things because I was having gastrointestinal issues and I was having upper respiratory issues and I had been doing a lot of research and all I wanted to do was ask some questions in this session about You know, he wanted to give me a test for celiac and I wanted to explain that I hadn't been eating gluten for you know, seven months at this point and
00:33:13
Speaker
And I had read that if you did that, you know, you would test negative as far, like you would, you would get a false negative on the test, basically, if it wasn't within your system. And so I was trying to explain this and ask the questions and he's like, well, I don't know. Do you want to be sick? Maybe it sounds like you just want to be sick. So why don't you just leave here and eat gluten for seven months? And then why don't you come back and we'll take this test? And I left the session in tears, in tears.
00:33:39
Speaker
And really frustrated and so I just went on my own health journey and I figured out my own health issues and then all of the science and the studies caught up with where I was at. And then I also went and ended up having children with some kind of autoimmune related health issues.
00:33:55
Speaker
And so I've been very lucky to create an arsenal of doctors who understand and respect it. And then I became a Reiki practitioner, and in particular a Reiki practitioner who does medical intuitive work and does work where often what I am shown in people's bodies are the source of health issues. Where those health issues exist, what are the emotional components of those health issues?
00:34:16
Speaker
I mean, you want to talk about feeling like you're going to be challenged. That is about as big of a trigger as you can possibly get, but it's really taught me to stand in my own power and to trust in myself. So now when I go into a doctor's office, I no longer have that feeling of like, basically, if I feel like they're not respecting me, I'm like, I'm getting a new doctor. Like that's kind of my, that's how I deal with it.
00:34:40
Speaker
But I definitely understand that feeling of just being not heard, not listened to, dismissed, made to seem like your point of view is trivial and not accurate. And so I think that's definitely one of those situations where you have to really, like you said, you have to kind of learn how to stand in your power.
00:35:02
Speaker
And I've had to find that as well with just watching parenting. Like for some reason, sometimes I'll often see other mothers parenting and feel like, oh my God, they're doing it so much better than I am. That someone's gonna find out that I don't know what I'm doing and that I'm the problem here. And there's a lot of judgment present in parenting.
00:35:25
Speaker
a lot of judgment present in parenting and in particular with mothers. And I hate to say it mother to mother. I feel like sometimes there is a lot of judgment present in parenting. And I've had to really work to try to build my own confidence as a parent and to know and understand how good I am at it, how loving I am at it.
00:35:45
Speaker
And that I am parenting two unique beings, as we all are, that require their own style of parenting. And I'm having to find my way in that. But it's definitely triggering. And I feel like there's a lot of reinforced messages out there that aren't very supportive, that tell you, I'm bad at this. You're not good at this. You're bad at this. If you're not doing it this way. If you're not feeding your children.
00:36:09
Speaker
a certain way if you're not disciplining them in a certain way or even disciplining them at all. Are you sleep training them? Are you co-sleeping with them? I mean, it's not a day of my life or something regarding parenting. It's not presented to me that I am not meant to feel guilty or confused. And so I've had to really learn how to lean into my own power and my own intuition.
00:36:34
Speaker
And I think that's the biggest thing is once again, when I'm having those thoughts and hearing the voices that are saying, you're not good at this. You don't know what you're doing. You need somebody else to help you with this. You need some book or you need some other parenting expert to tell you what to do. It's like learning how to come back to myself and figuring out what's the truth here in this message. What's the truth? Is this happening with my kids because they're just kids?
00:36:58
Speaker
and this is the phase they're in and it's normal to have these issues or is it because of a choice I'm making? You know, once again, getting back to like really being the authentic parent that I want to be and canceling out some of the noise that's been conditioned into me to make me believe that I don't really know what I'm doing, that there's a doctor, some parenting experts, some other mom at school, something that would make me be a better parent than I am.
00:37:29
Speaker
Yeah, I do know and I think a lot of this insecurity comes from comparing,
Copying vs. Modeling
00:37:39
Speaker
right? Like comparing ourselves as parents to other parents, comparing our homes to other homes, comparing our, you know,
00:37:47
Speaker
Our social life and our travels to other other peoples and it makes us feel less and and just going back to what you were talking about about modeling and Is you know modeling your yoga teaching style after a teacher you admire?
00:38:04
Speaker
I think there's a really big difference between comparing and copying and modeling. Because learning through modeling is experiential learning. It's so important and valuable to the learning process. And I think modeling your way of being in the world
00:38:32
Speaker
like walking into a boardroom and dressed like you should be in that boardroom gives you more space to to to to leave a lot of those insecurities behind but once you get into that space and you're like oh you know I'm not
00:38:56
Speaker
not being true to myself and being authentic in my presence, then you project insecurity, whether you open your mouth or not. And I think that there's something to be said about the importance of finding those role models in your life and
00:39:17
Speaker
and learning from them and taking that knowledge and molding it into your own authentic way of being in the world versus just an external comparison that makes you feel like
00:39:35
Speaker
you are not living up to some other person's lifestyle because there's no living up to another person's lifestyle. There's only your lifestyle. I think that's a really astute observation, the difference between copying and role models. And I think just the word role models, all of a sudden you hear it and you're like, Oh, I totally get what you mean.
00:39:54
Speaker
Because I think a role model is somebody who you authentically connect with. You see a spark of yourself within them. You see a spark of yourself within them that makes you realize like, oh, that's something I would like to emulate. Not copy, but emulate. That's something I would like to embody. And then once you have embodied it, then your true voice can come through.
00:40:16
Speaker
So I think what's happening in that moment, you're kind of lining up with that person's frequency, the energy of that space, and then you're letting your own true message come through. We used to talk about this all the time in art school. There is no original piece of art, really. We're all having the same conversations. I have never met an artist who is having a unique conversation.
00:40:39
Speaker
What they are doing uniquely is having their own conversation about the same thing that everybody is talking about, which is the human experience in some form. So there's nothing wrong with, I remember somebody in art school saying, what are the photographers saying? Like, oh, I don't look at anybody else's art. And I'm like, bullshit. Everybody looks at art. And if you think you're not informed by what you see and what you're around, you're crazy.
00:41:05
Speaker
The real goal, the real work, in my opinion, is let yourself look at things, let yourself be inspired by people, by works of art, and then have your own unique conversation about the same thing. And so I think role models kind of falls into that. And I really think it's about who you authentically connect with.
00:41:25
Speaker
Like what resonates with you when you see this person like I saw my teacher I'm like this really resonates with me and one of the biggest compliments I get now is that you know, I now stand completely in my own power as a teacher I do all of my own Dharma talks everything I do and
00:41:40
Speaker
Every now and again, I'll have somebody come in and they'll be like, I know who trained you. I know who your teacher was. And it's one of the biggest compliments that I have. And it's not because I'm copying her, but it's because I found somebody who moved me and who I wanted to be my, who was wise and who I wanted to be my teacher. And she planted seeds in me that I was then able to grow. And so I think that that same, that same methodology can be applied to our parenting.
00:42:09
Speaker
It can be applied to our workplace. It can be applied to so many things. And I agree with you. I think sometimes you've got to set the stage for your unique gifts to shine.
Perfectionism, Anxiety, and Self-Love
00:42:24
Speaker
I also do think, too, it's putting the perfectionism aside because I actually think that there's a really distinct link between perfectionism and imposter syndrome. I am a person who deals with issues of perfectionism quite a bit.
00:42:39
Speaker
So I'm curious to hear what your perspective is on that before I share mine. Well, I think that as children, the expectation is to be perfect and to be constant state of good performance. We are more likely to develop that inner voice that is always questioning ourselves.
00:43:06
Speaker
Which is funny because you would almost think it would be the opposite, right? Like the expectation is to be perfect and do wonderful all the time. Then you're just going to be raised with all this confidence and you're going to walk through the world in that way. But it's not the case. It's the imposter syndrome feeling often starts then and there as a child. And I think that
00:43:29
Speaker
I think perfectionism is a symptom of anxiety in a lot of ways. It's kind of like this anxiety of things not being right and not being correct as if there was any one way to be right or correct. I think it comes a lot from
00:43:54
Speaker
from just growing up in certain spaces and then just trying to process as an adult how to be authentic because nothing perfect is authentic. It's not beauties and the beauties and the cracks and then the scratches and the bruises. It's not so much in perfection's boring.
00:44:16
Speaker
Practice, right? I mean, that's the soul of mindfulness. It's in the practice. It is not mindful perfect or yoga perfect, which I've said a million times. It's a practice. And I definitely am a person that, especially as a child, I had a lot of perfectionist tendencies, and I still do as an adult. It's something that I have to be really mindful of and work against. Not work against, but understand, I think, so that I can be aware once again when those things are starting to show up and how they feel within my body.
00:44:45
Speaker
Um, because I think a lot of perfectionism is rooted to like, if I finally emulate what I need, then I will be loved. I will finally get the love I will need. I will finally get the recognition. So if I say everything perfectly, then I will be respected. And if I don't do anything wrong, if I make no mistakes, then I will be respected. And I think those kinds of thoughts can really shut you down from performing too.
00:45:10
Speaker
And I think that's where that can really show up in the workplace is, oh, well, if I'm not perfect, I don't have a voice here. I'm not really qualified to do this job because I'm not perfect yet. I don't have anything to contribute yet. I think perfectionism is often, I mean, I think perfectionism is at the root of a lot of our pain. And I think a lack of self-love is at the root of perfectionism, you know?
00:45:32
Speaker
And so I think that once again, it's like, what are the quality of those thoughts when they start to come up? You know, when they start to rise, whether you're talking about matters of beauty, are you feeling like you want to do something because you don't feel good enough? Or are you feeling like you want to do something because it feels like it would feel enriching to you? Are you not speaking your mind in a meeting because you think you don't have value or you're worried about being judged for not
00:45:58
Speaker
saying exactly the right thing, then that's, that's imposter syndrome creeping in. That's a lack of love for yourself creeping in, in that moment. You know, you need to allow yourself space and grace to make mistakes, to be authentic. And I think, I think you said this earlier, this idea of like knowing and understanding the value of lifelong learning. You know, that's one of the things that you prompted us for today is,
00:46:24
Speaker
Understanding that you need to allow because all the good stuff comes in the mistakes. That's how we transform That's how we get better is by making mistakes and being able to look at that and if we never make any mistakes because we never take any risks because we're too afraid that we're actually Impostors or we're too afraid we're gonna get found out. Oh one of the other things I thought was really interesting in that Harvard article As well was their choice around the kind of violence of the language of imposter
00:46:53
Speaker
This idea, especially it's really sinister, especially because it's associated with women so much. This idea that we're doing this sinister thing, that we're creeping our way. What it infers is that we're creeping our way into something that we don't belong to, that we shouldn't be there. Know your place. Know your place in some way. And I thought that was a really interesting perspective.
00:47:18
Speaker
to have. I did too. I did too. And I think, I think a trick that anyone can use when you have those feelings is, is just identifying them from the beginning without being too self deprecating, but you know, just, just being like, you know, like even just simple statement, you know what, I'm not an expert in this, but, and then exercising what you do know, because it, then it kind of gives you that, uh, you have, you have outed yourself
00:47:48
Speaker
as not an expert. But so it kind of gives you that like a little bit more of a relaxed approach to then feeling like you can speak from a place of authority because you have open with a disclaimer. And I know some people might feel like you shouldn't like kind of a thing. Yeah, you shouldn't minimize data, but from just from a
00:48:12
Speaker
Just from the perspective of helping yourself feel calmer, no one is going to remember this first five words. What they're going to remember is the next five minutes of talking. And it's just a little tool you can use. Well, I also think it matters in that moment whether you think you're an expert on the subject. Do you know what I mean? Because I think there's moments that we are more of an expert on something and really knowledgeable. So if we're coming from a place where we're quite certain or we feel quite confident that this is the right
00:48:39
Speaker
I think it's appropriate. You wouldn't want to sell yourself short in that moment, right? You just want to put out what you think. But I also think that there are moments where you don't know 100%, but you think this might be a wise and interesting thing to contemplate. I think asking a question
00:48:56
Speaker
is really important. I think posing something is, what if we approached it from this angle? What would this look like? I think this is something for us to reflect on because then all of a sudden you've opened up the space for a conversation with people and you're kind of inferring that same thing, right? But I agree with you. I think if you aren't feeling like an expert, it's okay to say I'm not an expert, but these are my thoughts
The Value of Asking Questions
00:49:18
Speaker
on it. Because you're still saying my thoughts matter.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I think it's okay to pose a question. And I also think it is absolutely okay when you feel like an expert in a situation, if you authentically are, and you're a good judge of your own knowledge, to stand up and say, this is what I think is the best thing to do based off this.
00:49:36
Speaker
And then also be open to somebody discounting that or having a different perspective and not being triggered, getting back to last week's episode, not being triggered by that. So I think it's this idea of if you're really open and you're really there to
00:49:52
Speaker
contribute what you have to contribute, but also don't always be wanting to learn. You're going to be able to enter into these situations from such, I think, a really fresh and really authentic place. And then as long as we can always keep going back to like, I feel like your body keeps a score, your body will constantly tell you
00:50:11
Speaker
if something is authentic to you or not. If you are saying something to yourself in your mind that you would not say to your best friend, to your child, to your spouse, then it's probably not the truth. If it's not that kind.
00:50:28
Speaker
You know? Yeah. It's true. It's not that kind. Negative self-talk. Yeah. You got to stop. You got to just, like you said earlier, your thoughts are not you. Your thoughts are just chemical reactions. I talk to my kids all the time. I'm like, your brain is just like your knee or your arm or your hand. It's a part of your physical body. And if your brain is telling you something that is unkind
00:50:51
Speaker
You need to tell it to stop and it may sound weird like you're having a conversation in your head, but it is. I mean, I do it all the time. I'm like, man, stop thinking that way. Think about it. Think about something happier and nicer. You don't need to be having that negative thought right now. And it's.
00:51:06
Speaker
You know, it works, you know, it takes time. It's practice. I say my ego I'm like, thank you for trying to keep me safe, but you need to step aside. I'm moving forward on this. I love that you come from a place of gratitude. Well, because I do think sometimes they have to remember like, it's not, I don't think it's good to villainize anything. The ego mechanism exists for a reason. It's not just some evil thing. It is there to keep us safe. And sometimes we need to be safe. Yeah. And it is trying to protect us. There is a protective nature to it.
00:51:36
Speaker
And so I think, you know, I want to honor all of the experiences that are happening within my body, that are happening within my mind, because they're all there for a reason. They serve some purpose. So I do try to, because I find when I'm angry at it, it's like it's just feeding it in some, it's like feeding off the negativity. So if I try to like just kind of in my head say, thank you for trying to keep me safe, but I would like to move forward.
00:52:02
Speaker
And I try to also be mindful if the words have like an aspect of judgment too, like getting back to what we said. When you're talking about imposter syndrome, the words I'm looking right now in the paper are fraud, phony, and imposter. I don't believe you could vibrationally have a word that has more judgment.
00:52:20
Speaker
than any of those things. So that's the thoughts. If the thought in your head is, I'm so stupid, you know, I'm a fraud, I'm a phony, I suck, you know, I'm not smart. Like those things have the most, they have a deep negative judgmental connotation.
00:52:36
Speaker
your true authentic self is never going to speak to you in that way. The truth doesn't come with those judgments. Those words all have this form of penalty to them. So I try to be mindful of that and watch the context because what we say to ourselves really matters. Our thoughts make up our existence around
Counteracting Negative Self-Talk with Mantras
00:52:59
Speaker
us. So sometimes, like what you said with your daughters, I feel like
00:53:02
Speaker
coming up with either a mantra to say back to myself or just saying, stop, stop, nope, step aside, step aside. Yeah. You know, ego step aside. 100%. Totally, totally.
00:53:18
Speaker
Oh, well, I feel like less of an impostor after this conversation. Do you feel like less of an impostor? Yeah, I feel so less phony. I really came into this feeling like a total bullshit artist and now I'm like, wait a second. Maybe I wasn't just faking it till I made it. Maybe I actually was like,
00:53:37
Speaker
you know, manifesting the thing I wanted at the moment and doing the work, doing the learning to be able to speak to it. And I think what you touched on earlier, lifelong learning and, you know, like anything, if you're prepared,
00:53:53
Speaker
and you know your stuff, then you're prepared to know your stuff. Really, I was just quoting you in the lifelong learning part. I can't take credit for that. But yeah, I also think too that unconsciously we know our own wisdom. We know our own power. We are sovereign beings who are very powerful, each and every one of us.
Exploring 'Fake it Till You Make it' for Growth
00:54:11
Speaker
And we deep down inside know that. Even if consciously you're not fully aware of how much power you have within you, unconsciously you do.
00:54:18
Speaker
So that's why the fake it till you make it thing I think works so well is that there is a seed of you, there is a part of you that knows you belong in that room. And so it's going to get you in that room, you know, it really is. Yeah. So I think that's where, you know, that's where the fake it till you make it is in my opinion, so different than imposter syndrome. And it's totally okay to fake it till you make it girl. Yeah, till you make it.
00:54:41
Speaker
Fake it till you make it. All right. All right. So, uh, next week we are talking about conscious parenting, which also could fall under the category of faking it till you make it. Um, technically. Um, but until then, I hope you have a wonderful week ahead. Thank you. Thank you.
00:55:11
Speaker
Don't forget to follow us on social at Everyday Mindful Podcast on Instagram and Facebook. And if you liked our little chat, please subscribe. It would be great if you gave us a review. All the stars, please. Same time, same place next week. Bye. Bye.