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Raise the Roof.
149 Plays1 year ago
Join hosts Jodie Jenkins and Tony Clement in this week's thought-provoking episode of "And Another Thing" as they delve into the critical issue of homelessness and housing. This week, they are joined by special guest Leigh Bursey, a passionate advocate with extensive experience in addressing housing challenges and homelessness.
In a candid and insightful conversation, Jodie, Tony, and Leigh explore the multifaceted aspects of homelessness, shedding light on the underlying causes, systemic issues, and potential solutions. They navigate through the complexities of the current housing crisis, discussing the impact on individuals and communities alike.
Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges faced by those experiencing homelessness and the importance of advocating for sustainable housing solutions. "And Another Thing" continues to bring you engaging discussions that matter, sparking conversations that go beyond the surface, and this week's episode is no exception.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'And Another Thing' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
And another thing And another thing And another thing
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of And Another Thing, the podcast that continues to set the bar in the world of podcasts. My name is Jody
Holiday Festivities and Political Cards
00:00:28
Speaker
Jenkins. My name is Tony Clement. And Tony, before
00:00:33
Speaker
We began recording this. You and I had a little chat off air, if you will. And you, apparently you get invited to many more Christmas parties than I do. And by many more, I mean any Christmas parties. Yeah. What's the deal? Like that's still a thing, apparently, Christmas parties. Yeah. They made a raging comeback after COVID, man. Okay. Okay. I didn't, uh,
00:01:00
Speaker
I didn't get any invites as of yet. I mean, it's still early, but I did receive my first political Christmas card the other day. So thanks to MPP, Todd Smith for the card. Nice. Nice. Yeah. I think I've got at least four Christmas parties coming up, if not more. Okay. And how many political Christmas cards have you received? From actual still elected politicians. No, no, no. Just any, any politicians past or present. Uh, two, two so far.
00:01:29
Speaker
I guess present and current is the same. Two? Yeah. And from yourself doesn't count. Oh, okay, one. Peter Van Loon's card came in the mail. Peter and I have known each other for 40
Campaign Tips from Peter Van Loon
00:01:42
Speaker
years. We were colleagues in the federal parliament, and yeah, he's invited me to his Christmas party, but I can't make it, Jody, because I've got another Christmas party on that same night.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I think I've told this story before, I think I've told this story before, but Peter VanLone back in 2000, no it was 2009 I believe. I was in...
00:02:06
Speaker
a candidate school put on by the Ontario PC party up in, I think it was held in Toronto. Peter Ranlone was one of the panelists or guest speakers or whatever. One of the things I remember the most from that panel discussion on getting elected was the importance of, and I actually did what he said, but
00:02:25
Speaker
was the importance of like getting a jacket or clothing with your last name across the back of your jacket. And wear it to all the events. So people just always saw your last name and I did it. I was elected. So I don't know. I'm not saying that was the only thing that that one it, but that was an interesting, interesting thing. Did you ever do that? Did you ever never even thought of that? But wow, that's pretty pretty. Now, now I want you to think back though. Think back to your time with Peter van Loewen.
00:02:53
Speaker
Do you remember him wearing a jacket with his name on it? No. You don't? Okay. There might be more to that story. There was also one other story from that candidate school. There was also a young man, a young elected MP walking around, shaking everyone's hands. Do you remember who that was or do you know who that might've been? Who was it? Patrick Brown.
00:03:19
Speaker
Patrick Brown. He would never leave a hand unshaken. Yeah, never leave a hand unshaken. He would have been in his 20s though in like, oh, nine. Former guest of the podcast, Patrick Brown. That's right. We should get him back on. It's been a while. It's been a while and we want to congratulate Bonnie Crombie, another former guest for winning the Ontario Liberal Leadership.
Spotify Wrapped Insights
00:03:41
Speaker
That's right. She comes on the show. Although in her case, I'm not sure that's like something I'd, you know, normally we say you come on the show, amazing things happen. Yeah. Like she's now the leader of the liberal Ontario liberal party. That's questionable, right? Questionable. Did you want to talk about the stats that you uncovered about our show?
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. But before I do that, like it's possible that on Bonnie Crombie, like we might get like voice fails from her being like, you sons of I actually won. You know, exactly. How could this happen? And another thing, podcast rub is real anyway. Yeah. So Spotify is one of the platforms we're on for our podcast. Of course, they do a big thing called wrapped each year.
00:04:32
Speaker
where they kind of analyze your listening habits and they now also have released Spotify for podcasters and a wrapped version for us and data and analytics. And we found out some interesting points that I won't go through at all, but just some, here's an interesting one. A large, actually no, the largest percentage of international listeners to our program are from Ireland. Oddly enough.
00:05:01
Speaker
Oddly enough, isn't that funny, eh? Yeah, I don't know what that means. The other interesting one is that our top episode, and we shared this on one of our social media platforms, but our top episode of the year was David Pacini and Stephen Lecce together forever. So they were on the show at all. We did a little bit of a panel discussion with them. And the other interesting one that I found was
00:05:27
Speaker
I can't remember the exact percentage. I think it was like 25 percent of our new listeners discovered the show by listening to the episode called Mr. X. Yes. Yes. Very interesting. So which that story is dead buried gone on unless unless there's a RCMP thing that comes. But I you know, I'm well anyway, well, let's not comment on that because we don't know. All we know is that it's
00:05:57
Speaker
that Doug Ford is at 41% in the polls. That's all I know. Yes. It's very true.
Sponsors Spotlight
00:06:05
Speaker
All right. This show each week is brought to you by the team at Municipal Solutions. You can find them online at municipalsolutions.ca. John Mutton and the crew doing a wonderful job. Tony, I know that you can expand on their services. Yes. John Mutton is back in town. He had a little bit of a holiday with Anna.
00:06:22
Speaker
in Vegas. Did you see that Jody? He was posting a little bit and from the, yeah, anyway, he's back in town and he's working very hard. Of course.
00:06:33
Speaker
These Ontario's leading MZO firm and they've got some great development services and project management skills, development approvals, permit expediting, planning services with municipal, a lot very municipal focused. Let's put it that way. Engineering and architectural services, even things like minor variances and land severances
00:06:54
Speaker
for those building permits as well. Go to municipalsolutions.ca for all your municipal solutions needs. And then still with us are the Harris Legacy.ca. This is about this new book out called The Harris Legacy Reflections on a Transformational Premier. You can
00:07:15
Speaker
you order it from the heiresslegacy.ca or go to any bookstore or bookstore site. I'm sure they have it there too. The basic premise is that we're living in Mike Harris' Ontario today. I was actually at a seminar yesterday with some of the authors talking about their chapters because there's a bunch of different essays that are written by different authors, including David Fromm, Jack Mintz, Gord Miller,
00:07:42
Speaker
former environment commissioner, David Hurley, liberal, you know, liberal, whatever he is, organizer and whatnot. It's edited by Alistair Campbell. He was on the show a few weeks ago. I saw that Alistair Campbell was also on the hub for their podcast as well. Anyway, go to the heiresslegacy.ca to order yours. We're back on, I'm hoping Jodi, we're back on Hunter's Bay radio.
00:08:09
Speaker
dot com and 88.7 FM with every Saturday morning. They have a bunch of different podcasts, including ours. So we want to thank Hunter's Bay Radio for being our terrestrial radio partner. And finally, Jodi, if you enjoy the show and we know that you do,
00:08:29
Speaker
We think that you'll love the podcast Not Reserving Judgment from our friends at the Canadian Constitution Foundation, a charity dedicated to a freer Canada. In each episode, hosts Josh DeHaas, Johanna Barron, and Christine Van Gein update you on the latest legal news, tell you about legal stories that you might have missed, and give their bad legal takes of the week.
00:08:51
Speaker
where they take a light hearted look at legal opinions that didn't quite land. Not reserving judgment isn't just for lawyers. It's a show for all Canadians who care about their rights and freedoms. The hosts are not afraid of controversial subjects. I've gone over this before. I will give you an example of one of their latest
00:09:09
Speaker
topics when I just finished reading the script. But anyway, the point is not reserving judgment. Wherever else you get your podcasts, you can get that podcast as well. And by the way, two of those people, Joanna and Christine, have that bestseller book, which is called Pandemic Panic, How Government Responses to COVID-19 Changed Civil Liberties Forever. So take a look at that.
00:09:35
Speaker
Oh yeah, their latest episode, episode 16, is it racist to require teachers to pass math tests? So that's their latest episode. You can find them wherever you get your podcast, Jody. And that is our sponsors. Excellent. And you should write The Haggis Legacy. Maybe that's a book in your future. Yeah, really. I think that would be a best seller. Come on.
00:10:00
Speaker
And that's for our Scottish listeners, but I'm sure we can find them for Ireland too. We're trying to get a bump in our Scottish listeners.
Guest Introduction: Lee Bursey
00:10:10
Speaker
Wow. We have a guest today on the show, and I know that you're going to introduce them if we haven't completely bored them already. There's a good chance they might not even be there when we throw it to them, but I'll let you do the introduction, Tony.
00:10:24
Speaker
Well, Lee Bursey and I got to know one another when I was still a politician. He was in Brockville, Ontario, just down the road from U Jodi. And this came about because I know he's got a huge passion for the homelessness issue and, you know, trying to find real solutions for housing in our communities. And I know he's taken that passion. He's moved to St. John's, Newfoundland.
00:10:52
Speaker
So he's coming to us an hour and a half later than you and I are talking. But so that's really great of him that he's made himself available. He's a great punk rocker as well. Great, great musician. He does a lot of gigs for charitable causes as well. And I just knew that you, Jody and Lee will get along. So Lee Bursey, thanks for coming on the show. My pleasure. Thanks for having
Lee Bursey's Journey into Politics
00:11:15
Speaker
me. I'm very grateful for the opportunity. Long time overdue, Tony. I know it's overdue and you
00:11:21
Speaker
You've invited me to Newfoundland and Labrador how many times? I don't know, a gazillion probably.
00:11:27
Speaker
For sure, for sure. And I got to say, like, the dad jokes were starting to get a little dry, so I'm really grateful for the introduction. I'm having a conversation started for sure because I don't know how many more Scottish jokes I could take in a row. No, no, no, no. Okay. We do lay it on a little bit thick. I grant you that. So anyway, let's give the floor to you. I know you and Jodi will probably get into it, but tell us a little bit about where you're coming from on
00:11:54
Speaker
the housing and homelessness issues and what what your experiences have been, all of that stuff. Well, at first, I should say, you know, aside from a massive thank you for the opportunity, all jokes aside, because, you know, the issue we're talking about isn't exactly a humorous feel good issue this time of year. There's a lot of great, you know, a lot of great media messaging out there that talks about the power of giving and
00:12:18
Speaker
you know, that tingly feel good sensation that people tend to get when they've done something philanthropic and positive for their communities. And I don't want to cheapen or dishearten that, but the realities are much more tragic and they're much more real for a lot of people. And, you know, this is not a Christmas time issue. It's a, it's an all year round one plight for a lot of people. And I think it's also worth noting that there's a lot of people currently displaced in international conflict. And if we're talking about homelessness on a domestic front,
00:12:47
Speaker
any opportunity we get to also acknowledge that there's other people worldwide who are struggling specifically right now, considering some of the turmoil that a lot of people are facing on all sides of that discussion. I think it's worth making sure I acknowledge them too. But before I get to that, I should say, you know, Tony, I believe at the time, Tony was looking at, you know, higher aspirations and happened to be visiting my community. And through a mutual contact, he ended up on my
00:13:15
Speaker
community access television show, which I would say probably had a comparable listenership. You know, if you guys are making jokes about, you know, your, your one audience, I don't know who was watching my program, frankly. But I know that when you brought your guitar and we play in a clash tune, and I believe I had my beatboxer friend come join us for a sit down. All of a sudden, I believe it was being streamed on CPAC and probably was the highest rated program I've ever done. So I will say
00:13:43
Speaker
thank you for that level of exposure. I got the rub that you guys were just talking about, you know, so yeah, take take that Bonnie, I was here first. Anyway, you know, and congratulations to her. I know a lot of people are like, Oh, that's a tough, tough gig. But you know, that so much opportunity exists right now with that part, too. Right? I mean, you got to have an opportunity to paint a blank canvas and sort of
00:14:09
Speaker
stare that ship in any direction you want to. And just like the stock market, sometimes it's worth getting in, you know, when, you know, prices are low and seeing what you can turn into from the basement up. And wouldn't it be great if we all brought some positive discourse together? You know, different opinions can sometimes create, you know, some really great policy too. That said, in terms of my attachment to this issue, I lived in a tent. You know, I am a former three-term municipal counselor in the community that you mentioned earlier.
00:14:39
Speaker
Loved it very, very much. Uh, still considerate part of, uh, you know, my, my legacy in my home. I'm 36. I spent over 20 years there. Bulk of my life. Uh, it was my adopted city. My mother, uh, and I, I guess I had a 16 year old mother. Uh, she, uh, as she was going through her twenties realized there wasn't a job to be had here in Newfoundland at the time. Uh, like many Newfoundlanders, we ended up in, uh, I guess Northern Alberta.
00:15:05
Speaker
You know, the second biggest city in Newfoundland, according to everyone, is Fort McMurray. She ended up getting a job in the Transcanda pipeline as a survey assistant, little five foot four hundred and twenty pound Deidre.
00:15:16
Speaker
was out there with all these big burly men doing this very physical job that brought her right across the country. Somehow we all ended on Ontario. I was visiting the beautiful city of Brockville where she was doing some work for a short period of time. And I just thought that it was the most beautiful place I'd ever been to other than my home city of St. John's. And I said to my mother, it'd be a great place to set some roots. And she said, okay, I think that you've earned those.
00:15:41
Speaker
Let's see what we can do." And I started building a life and it wasn't without its obstacles. Poverty was a part of our life for a long time. And quite frankly, there were other things too. A lot of times in these conversations about homelessness, mental health and addictions become the primary focus of conversation. And I would be remissed and being completely disingenuous if I said it wasn't part of my story too. It's a very prevalent part of my story, but ultimately,
00:16:07
Speaker
In our circumstance, it was domestic abuse and domestic violence that led to our circumstances and our flirtations with being unhoused and housing compromised and sleeping in cars and hotels and public parks and cleaning up in washrooms. And it took me a long time to reconcile that as a lived experience for me of quote unquote homelessness. Cause I'd always pictured it being a large urban issue that was very visible that you could sort of see those indicators quite clearly. And ultimately it's very difficult.
00:16:36
Speaker
to talk about yourself as a victim of circumstance and share in this grievances, when ultimately we ended up back at that same home many times. And that was the sad part of the sick of the environment of domestic violence. So yeah, I was housing compromised hundreds of times, but I also had a home hundreds of other times. So it was always very challenging to know how to put that into words and framing.
00:17:01
Speaker
But in terms of how I got involved with the issue, and I think you'll appreciate this one quite quickly there, Tony, in terms of anecdote. Hopefully everyone will. I think it's a pretty universal one. There was a counselor who was running for the mayor at the time in 2010.
00:17:15
Speaker
I basically had lost a job and I was standing at a bus stop and snow was up to my calves. I didn't understand public works. I didn't understand priority bus stops. I didn't understand, you know, how municipal, you know, strategies looked. I just know I was pissed off and I was wet. And I thought to myself, no one cares about poor people. And that's probably not very true. I think in my community, there were a lot of people who cared. They probably just had to, you know, play that policy game. And that was something I was not aware of at the time.
00:17:45
Speaker
Maybe there was just a disconnect at that moment. But whatever the case, it propelled me enough to borrow $100 from my mother and march across town and put my name on a ballot and go on 10,500 job interviews. And I was lucky enough to get elected.
00:17:58
Speaker
And, you know, that ended up happening a couple more times. But in the process, I sought some advice. And I think that that's something that I think is prudent for all of us. Both good and bad advice can be useful. And this particular counselor, I've often, you know, I've goaded him about this a few times, and I think he handles it really well because it was very well-meaning advice.
00:18:16
Speaker
which is he said you know that east wardly those homes they pay a lot of tax dollars they're plugged in they care they're going to be a place you're going to want to hit they're the place that you should focus your attention if you want to get elected not so much this area though not so much that other area in the northern part of town where they have those you know substandard uh you know of commercial apartments not this place with the non-profit house those people don't go
00:18:42
Speaker
And I'm sure his intention was very much to help me, but ultimately it became a chicken or egg conversation for me. And I thought to myself, well, why aren't they voting? Right. So if you're going to give enough time that you're going to hit every door, which I had enough time to do that twice, ultimately. And I knew I was going to, I started with some of those at risk neighborhoods and made it a goal to circle back to them during advanced polls. And, uh, remember that first time knocking on one of those doors, the response I got was.
00:19:09
Speaker
You're the first person of any political persuasion, stripe, or stature who has knocked on my door in 20 plus years.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'd love to participate. Here's my grievances. And all of a sudden I'm having a 45 minute conversation at the door. And, uh, you know, during the advanced polls, I brought a lot of those people to, uh, to the polls. And I think that they were what I would call disruptors, people who, uh, were not captured in previous polling data because they hadn't participated in the system. And I guess you could probably make a, you know, this is a very microcosmic example, but you know, on a macro level, I mean, I think if you were to go back to like the Obama campaign is a good example.
00:19:42
Speaker
of a lot of people who participated in the system who you could never capture or analyze that data before because they'd never participated. And, you know, I had people who I remember one gentleman who was illiterate, actually, and he had to bring my button in with him. He was so passionate about voting for someone who he saw himself in, who would come from, you know, more challenging, less cultivated backgrounds. That was like to the clerk, he's like, I want to vote for this guy, but I don't know how.
00:20:10
Speaker
I remember a guy who had some justice involvement participate and he had no identification and a police officer who happened to be there was the person who vouched for him for his oath and affidavit. You know, I had people who participated who skipped over all the other options for counselor, skipped over their option for trustee, skipped over their option for mayor, voted for me and left.
00:20:28
Speaker
And sure enough, I was just lucky enough to sweep by with a few votes, but all of a sudden those votes mattered to the people at that table too, because they recognized that those people were not part of this process previously, and there's always that risk they won't be again. And when you start talking about issues like housing and homelessness in this municipal front, because let's be real, I owed them that
Community Efforts on Homelessness
00:20:50
Speaker
much. They had invested in me. All of a sudden, being that housing and homelessness counselor,
00:20:57
Speaker
people started calling me up and going, Lee, there's some fella asleep under a canopy at the local grocery store parking lot. It's two o'clock in the morning. Can you go help them? For, of course, my response is, well, why don't you go help them? You know, they're part of your neighborhood, too. I mean, this is, you know, we got to create that culture. But then I thought about it and went, sure, you know what? Absolutely, I can. So all of a sudden, I'm running almost a thrift store type, you know, lens type thing in my autumn. I mean, people donating, they want to help. They just don't know how they're donating these unique supplies and me and
00:21:26
Speaker
A couple of my local friends, you know, very dedicated Mark Dara, Shadow, Brockville Street friends, Charlotte Robertson, you know, these folks, they came together and all of a sudden we're going into tent camps. All of a sudden we're getting to know people where they are and learning about their issues in real time. And, you know, being that person who someone's calling on Christmas day because you have someone sleeping.
00:21:46
Speaker
at the ATM and people are uncomfortable or going down to almost quasi investigate as that sort of you see in mobile crisis, you see in a lot of communities. We didn't quite have that or at least weren't aware of it at that moment. But for us, it was, oh, hey, that's that's so and so it's this gentleman here. I've met him, you know, let me break the ice in building that type of rapport and conversation. And it became such an important part of my life that ultimately I think it's probably the most important thing I've ever done.
00:22:15
Speaker
What I like about both of you gentlemen, Jodi and Lee, is that it's a kind of a DIY kind of approach. There's no handbook on this. You're just trying to make some things happen. Jodi is very involved in shelters and making sure that they're there for the community. Lee, you were doing the same thing.
00:22:41
Speaker
Is that what you're trying to convey to not only your fellow counselors at the time, but to the general population? You shouldn't be waiting for other people to help solve the problem. Oh, bingo. Absolutely. You hit it on the head. I was listening to your last episode because a little birdie named Tony mentioned that I've been name dropped. It was
00:23:04
Speaker
I was listening to it and I thought to myself, you know, I really appreciated some of the things you were saying there, Jody. The difference, of course, is in your case, you know, maybe you had a certain level of stature, maybe you had enough ambition that was upward and motivated. Maybe you had enough friends in high places. In your case, you were able to access what sounds like a significant dollar figure to kickstart a pilot project without having to
00:23:27
Speaker
at that point, at least turn to municipal provincial federal support. And, you know, some communities, it isn't quite that simple, especially in rural and remote atmospheres. It could be very, very challenging for people to know where these these pieces fit and how much money it actually costs to provide these services. And I think that there were some comments and I've no doubt comments in other places where we all talk about and we all know.
00:23:53
Speaker
A shelter is not a home, but it's a necessary stopgap in a circumstance when you don't have other options and the skies fall.
00:24:00
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, I was a big part of trumpeting that. Now I have to give credit where credit's due, you know, you give me the opportunity, I will. There were local faith groups in Brockville who were having roundtable discussions with different philanthropists and community agencies going, how can we kickstart something? And they brought me in, they sat me down, they participated. Mark Derr and I, the street friends, became a go-to for them. We started to
00:24:24
Speaker
collecting the donations, posting the job openings, being a part of the panels of discussion, coming up with different ways to train staff. Before long I was working there in that space when all of a sudden we finally had a cooperative care warming center in the community. But I think it would have happened with or without me because ultimately I think there were enough kindhearted people in my community
00:24:47
Speaker
And Brockville was a pretty tightly knit community at different points who could recognize that there were people in need. The challenge, of course, as you heard me mention is there's a lot of people who want to help. They just don't always know how. And I know that, you know, a perfect bone of contention here, I think we'll have a great discussion if we wanted to go that route. You know, you had the small business, you know, apartment ownership groups and such are, you know, a home ownership groups during the pandemic. We know when they were talking about the
00:25:16
Speaker
you know, the tribunal being closed, who were saying, hey, the province just gave a bunch of money to these shelter systems. That should solve the problem. We categorically know that shelters are a very expensive way to not house someone.
00:25:27
Speaker
But the problem is, you know, right now it's no longer about NIMBY. It's no longer not in my backyard. It's banana, right? It's built absolutely nowhere near anything. And, you know, there's an argument that exists within society that says, you know, we really care about your problem, but we don't want that. We don't have to look at that problem. That problem is going to hurt our assessment. That problem is going to hurt our, that doesn't make our neighborhood feel safe. And that happens in every community. And the fact is, is homelessness is ugly.
00:25:54
Speaker
it's uncomfortable so i'm sympathetic to those folks who maybe don't grasp it or even if they do grasp it don't know how to comfortably craft that narrative especially when they have families and they have kids that they're worried about and they don't want to see certain parts of that more degraded element of society directly in front of their their you know their neighborhood grocery store i get it but it doesn't change the fact that is uncomfortable
Advocacy and Housing Policies
00:26:17
Speaker
it is as it is for some of those folks
00:26:20
Speaker
I can imagine it's significantly more uncomfortable for some of the folks who are thrust into living in those environments. So, you know, we have to find that compassionate centerpiece to that narrative, right? Yeah. Fair point. Jordy, what are your thoughts on this? Well, I have a lot of thoughts. I don't know. I'm trying to collect them right now. I'm just enjoying hearing Lee's experience and his viewpoint. I would be...
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, I would just try to figure out how to frame this problem. Yeah, because it's similar to your journey a little bit, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, everything that Lee said, I lived. You wouldn't know this, or maybe you do, but in 2003, twice I ran provincially for the new Democrats, and I spent a ton of my time
00:27:10
Speaker
talking to voters who historically don't vote in low income areas. And I learned pretty quickly that those people do feel disenfranchised and they do feel underrepresented. And it's tough to get them out to the polls. There's no question. Again, I went through two provincial campaigns like that. I did end up, you know, I always joke
00:27:33
Speaker
I grew up a little bit and became a conservative, but that's another discussion. But there's no easy answer. At the end of the day, my passion, look, I don't even, I can't even, I have a hard time, as strange as this sounds, after opening a homeless shelter in a transitional, I have a hard time
00:27:53
Speaker
encountering homeless people because I don't even know to this day how to engage in a way I find it awkward I'm just not it's just not something I have a level of comfortability with now our executive director that we hired for the shelter he's unbelievable with these people he's unbelievable in building relationships
00:28:11
Speaker
And like, just giving them a sense of dignity and hope. And that's what we want to do. But I still, it's awkward for me. And I, and I mean, I hear your story, and you come from a different lived, like a lived experience. And it's powerful as well. But at the end of the day, it's, you know, for me, I can't speak for you. But, you know, Tony was mentioning kind of the same passion and desire. I just believe everybody
00:28:35
Speaker
deserves to have a roof over their head and a place to call home. That's theirs. That's my view. I respect that. We're talking about, let's be real, we're talking about
00:28:48
Speaker
Maslow's hierarchy and needs here. I mean, ultimately, here's an interesting way we can sort of shift this discussion for a second. Because you mentioned about the growing up from becoming conservative. A lot of my friends get a kick out of my relationship with Tony. I mentioned that to him. What I always go back to is, we were punk rockers. Now, I don't know how. I've often said, I don't know how Tony and Charlie Angus are so far apart, diametrically, knowing that their primary influence, musically,
00:29:17
Speaker
is shared, you know, I don't necessarily see the world the exact same way, but you know, I have found a middle ground and I do accept that, you know, I generally can find uncommon sense issues, generally people, I think, and generally come to a consensus. When it comes to compassionate issues, the only people I'm ever going to have in my friend's circle are people who are compassionate. If you're not compassionate, then that's the beginning and ending to this discussion until ultimately, very quickly. So, you know, it comes down to is,
00:29:48
Speaker
The DIY element is there, but there's also a certain part of this political compass. So I can respect that maybe we don't see things entirely the same way. But I'm always impressed by how many times we do by accident. And I'm going to go ahead, and as a very left of center social justice warrior, go ahead and just say, you can only go so far left without turning right by accident. And the same can be said in any conversation. The difference between a
00:30:15
Speaker
a social democrat, you know, new democrat, lack of a better term, you know, someone who's on the more social justice element of this conversation and a libertarian are really not that significant. And I think that there's certain checks and balances and there's certain core beliefs that might be different. But generally speaking, there's also a lot of core beliefs that are very much shared. Here's an example. The only reason the housing system is as complicated in this country
00:30:41
Speaker
as it is, is because we've made it that way. There's nothing that complicated about four walls and a roof. What becomes is easements, allotments, setbacks. What becomes is maximizing taxation. What it becomes is minimum square footages, joint severed liability. What it becomes is municipal planning interferences, variances when it comes as right payers associations who
00:31:06
Speaker
while their opinions are very valid and I definitely would encourage anyone to share their voice sometimes have been blocking progress but it's also sitting around with other legislatures whether that be at the municipal or the provincial or ultimately even as a federalist but you know maybe less so in that particular vein but no doubt at this moment there is equally a part of this conversation as any other
00:31:27
Speaker
What it comes down to is that there are people who are disconnected from the issue. And I'll give you an example, and I'll say this with the most sincerity for my colleagues who work within this sector. A lot of the conversations and presentations I have at things like the Canadian Alliance to the Homelessness Conference, or the Canadian Housing Renewal Association, which I want to send a shout out to. I'm on the Board of Directors there, I'm the chair of the Advocacy Committee, and an individual like you, Jody, you can take out a membership and be a part of that organization.
00:31:53
Speaker
That's one of the cool things about an organization like that is that it's not about just being a provider. Activists and advocates are welcome to and that's great. But you know, one of the presentations I've given is talking about how we were very data driven and that data is a fundamental ingredient. That data is necessary, but that also means you have people who've been working in this sector for 20 years.
00:32:12
Speaker
who are making these incredible pieces of academia that have been broadcasted, rebroadcasted, published, and republished a bazillion times. Steve Gates and Steve Pomeroy as two examples are people who have published more thoughtful and intricate paper by lunch hour than I probably would know how to digest in a lifetime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people in this sector who are not connected
00:32:36
Speaker
to those who are struggling on a personal level, like you were just saying. And the reason why is because they've poured their life into that advocacy on a technical sense, that sometimes it's difficult for them to be able to properly broadcast, properly convey and properly paint that picture of the person that's attached to that number and to that spreadsheet. And I think that that's about the most punk rock thing I know how to do, is make sure that
00:33:03
Speaker
I want to make it really friggin' hard for you to step over Joe on your way into the legislature so you know who Joe is. Right? And that's always my fear has been that if we make it too easy just to warehouse people in certain areas of town,
00:33:26
Speaker
where the middle class don't have that experience, then it drops off as a public policy issue. Bingo. If I don't see it, it doesn't affect me. This is exactly how that window of our discontent, temperate conversation happened. That's how that municipal counselor who was trying to give me his most well-meaning advice, that's how he was able to
00:33:48
Speaker
I mean, Steve was a Peter Buttigieg, Minister of Transportation, I believe. Yeah, Transportation Secretary. Yeah, he had a really great quote not long ago where he said that something along the lines, and I'm paraphrasing, but the fact that the term wrong side of the tracks exists in our culture is proof that these decisions can be intentional. And I think that that's a pretty fair analysis is that we
00:34:17
Speaker
We have complicated this because there are definitely people who I sat with and people who I lobbied and people who I talked to and people who I shared those chamber mixers with who couldn't understand the concept of a tiny homeless. That's not because they because the idea is so awful. It's because they can't picture themselves in the home.
00:34:37
Speaker
Therefore, they assume no one else could either. I'll give an example with feminine hygiene products in like, you know, public spaces. To me, that's a punk rock issue, too. I mean, that's a simple one because it's really cost effective. It's not that big a deal. And you could, if anything, you could make an argument that it makes it your community more accessible for your public parks post COVID.
00:34:55
Speaker
You want people to come and have a good time and feel safe in a community. You don't want them to worry about those stupid little things. But there's going to be someone who's a detractor to that. And they're going to say, well, you know, I remember a debate was someone said, well, you know, the women I talked to, they like choices with their tampons and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. This isn't exactly a municipal jurisdiction. So I was able to respond and say, neither is toilet paper. Under your premise, we should remove it from the washrooms, too. That's not covered under the Municipal Act either.
00:35:22
Speaker
You know, sometimes we, again, in an effort to complicate something, to have voices heard and amplified, to make sure that we have that last say on something. If anything, we're getting in our own way. And I, you know, I saw that many times in municipal politics. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best
The Future of Housing Politics
00:35:40
Speaker
one. And no doubt there's something to be said for this counterintuitive policy measures that have been made in the vein of good intentions.
00:35:50
Speaker
We're going to run out of time, but I do want to ask you this, Lee, and then give Jody the last word perhaps. Here and now, where we are now, and very soon into the future, some of the top issues for the next federal election could well be housing and homelessness and how we deal with them. Are you excited about that? Is that a real opportunity to elevate this discussion?
00:36:18
Speaker
Of course, but it's called comfort. Fact is, is that, you know, while I was a little pinko, you know, social justice commie hippie over in the corner speaking to a niche market 10 years ago about these issues, you know, now they're the number one, two and or three on every polling that I've seen nationally has been either housing and or the cost of living in the top three of each and every one of those categories. Pierre has got some really great videos coming out and quite frankly, he
00:36:47
Speaker
very well might be eating the liberals lunch on this issue. Now, to me, that's an interesting time in history when all of a sudden the most common sense narrative that I'm hearing that's picking up steam across this country is coming from someone who we probably wouldn't notoriously assume is plugged into this issue. But with anything, that speaks to the fact that we're all plugged into this issue because it's no longer not in our backyard, it's our living room. Our kids can't move out of our houses anymore.
00:37:14
Speaker
You know, the reality is that this is not about being middle income, lower income. This is every income right now. This is the hot button issue. It's like Jed Clampett's stroke and oil. You know, and there's going to be a lot of people who are hurt by some of the poor decisions that were made simply because at this particular moment, we are dealing with, you know, some
00:37:36
Speaker
some poorly planned strategies that weren't executed to their most effective nature. And I think that the biggest thing I can hit home again and again is that I am very excited about well intentioned policy, but well intentioned policy needs to be deliverable. Amen. Amen. Absolutely. Jodi, you got the last word on this, buddy.
00:37:58
Speaker
This show could probably go on for like six hours.
Government vs. Grassroots Solutions
00:38:01
Speaker
The only thing I was going to add is that, and I've said this to Tony on the show before too, and I was an elected, I mean, we've all been elected officials, but I'm a, you may not agree with me on all this, but I actually am a firm believer that more can be done outside the walls of government than within. Again, that's up for debate, but I just, yeah, I just think there's so much more that can be done.
00:38:27
Speaker
with a little bit more freedom. And I agree with everything you said, you're bang on with your comments about, you know, zonings and minor variances and setbacks and easements. Cause I went through all that in 2007, opening our first shelter, which would be deemed an illegal shelter because we didn't go through the planning process. We just wanted to open the doors. But again, we don't have time to unpack all that, but I do appreciate everything you've shared today, Lee. And we would welcome you back anytime on the program.
00:38:55
Speaker
to discuss this. And the one thing I will add too, and you kind of alluded to this at the beginning, and we talked about this in the last podcast. This is not an issue that should just pop up around Christmas time or when the cold weather hits, but for some reason it does, because that's when the majority of people I find seem to think about it. But it is a 24-7 issue that we need to continue to tackle and see some progress on.
00:39:20
Speaker
Lee, hang on. We're going to give you a proper thank you, but we're going to just allow us to wrap up the show. We want to thank our listeners. As always, please provide comments and ratings.
Episode Recap and Farewell
00:39:32
Speaker
On Spotify, if you're listening to this on Spotify, Jodi is using that platform for polling and interaction. Jodi, what do you want to say about that?
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, we'll have a poll up that you can vote on. I think last week our question was, do you prefer the NFL or the CFL? And it was overwhelming NFL. So we know that all our.
00:39:54
Speaker
All our listeners are NFL fans, not CFL fans. There we go. We'll have some more serious topics too. I do want to thank our sponsors again, Municipal Solutions, John Mutton at MunicipalSolutions.ca, our presenting sponsor. Then the HarrisLegacy.ca to pick up that book, The HarrisLegacy Reflections on a Transformational Premier. And then Not Reserving Judgment podcast, they're a great sponsor as well. Congratulations to them for
00:40:20
Speaker
getting into the podcast world. And you can hear this again Saturday mornings on huntersbayradio.com. All right. We'll do this again in seven days. Lee, we thank you so much for your time and hopefully you can join us at another time. Be an honor. Thank you very much for the opportunity. Any opportunity to talk about this issue is an opportunity I'll take. All right. We'll talk soon, Tony. You bet.