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This week on And Another Thing, Tony Clement sits down with Clifton Brown, a retired Light Heavyweight Muay Thai Kickboxer and a pioneer of the sport. In this episode, Clifton shares his insights on the rise of Muay Thai in Canada and globally, shedding light on its cultural impact and growing popularity. He also introduces listeners to his ambitious new project, the World Muay Thai League, and discusses the future of the sport. Plus, Clifton recounts his recent experience at the Paris Olympics, where Muay Thai made its debut as a demonstration sport. Tune in for an engaging conversation about the evolution of Muay Thai and what lies ahead for this dynamic martial art.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsors
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of and another thing podcast i'm your co host tony clement jody is away today but we've got a great guest with us and i did not want to put it off first of all of course we always like to thank our sponsors they are They've been with us for a good long time and they produce and provide excellent services. So first off the bat is our presenting sponsor, of course, Municipal Solutions. John Mutton and the gang are Ontario's leading MZO firm and they provide development services, project management, development approvals, permit expediting,
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planning services with municipalities, engineering and architectural services, even things like minor variances and land services. Go to municipalsolutions.ca for all your municipal solutions needs. And then we also want to thank KWM Consulting.
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They're our newest sponsor and KWM have been in the lobbying and advocacy business for over 23 years. ah They support companies of all sizes and dealing with governments and the company believes in honest, ethical advice and the value of hard work.
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contact Kelly Mitchell at www.kwmconsulting.com or just call Kelly directly 416-728-8287.
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seven We also want to thank our terrestrial radio sponsor that is Hunters Bay Radio in Muskoka 88.7 FM every Saturday morning ah Hunters bra Bay radio reproduces rebroadcasts various podcasts including and another thing podcast, but you can listen to them all the time.
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Speaker
at huntersbayradio.com.
Guest Introduction: Clifton Brown
00:02:07
Speaker
Our guest today is Clifton Brown. Clifton is a Canadian retired light heavyweight Muay Thai kickboxer of Jamaican descent. ah He fought out of Toronto and he is the president and CEO of Warrior Cast Productions Inc, ah which is a production company focusing on martial arts through athlete documentaries, et cetera.
00:02:28
Speaker
ah And he is a prime mover on a new Muay Thai league. We'll get into that a little bit. He's the first Canadian in history to achieve the level of world champion in the sport of Muay Thai. And he is the first ever Canadian national team head coach. So ah Clifton, welcome to the program. ah Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. Appreciate the time.
00:02:50
Speaker
No, of course. And I think yeah there's so much to discuss, but let's start for our our listeners.
Understanding Muay Thai
00:03:00
Speaker
Just maybe explain what Muay Thai is and where it comes from, those kinds of things. Sure. Muay Thai is in a martial art that has you know a very, very long history. It's been around for you know a couple of thousand years. It's part of a culture in the national sport of Thailand.
00:03:17
Speaker
It's a version of kickboxing that has punches, kicks, knees and elbows. And originally it started, you know, as a military form of defense for hand-to-hand combat and then, you know, in the early ah turn of the century, and around 1920s, it went from just the armed guard to becoming competitive to in terms of, you know, at men would compete to see who was the best at their art and then who would end up becoming a part of the King's Guard. And then from there, it grew into a more organized sport, Queensbury rules, ring, ah rounds, time and such. So it's been around for some time and and it's been gaining a lot of critical mass sort of in the underground over the last little while.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah. So obviously it's a sport that is popular in Thailand and other parts of Asia, but it seems to be growing worldwide. Is that correct? Absolutely. I mean, one of the biggest things that's just happened is that, you know, in the 2021, it should have been 2020, but the 2021 Olympics due to the setback from COVID, it was officially IOC recognized. And then we just came back from Paris for our first a foray into the Olympic movement as a demonstration sport, which is pretty, pretty, pretty big deal.
00:04:26
Speaker
and I want to get into that a little bit, of course, but maybe a little bit of your
Clifton's Journey into Muay Thai
00:04:31
Speaker
backstory. How did you get involved in Muay Thai and maybe tell of your experiences and in the sport? Yeah. I mean, it's a funny story. you know I grew up, ah you know interestingly, in Brampton and Rexdale. I was in Rexdale in elementary school and then moved to Brampton for junior high school and high school. And during that time,
00:04:50
Speaker
When I was younger, you know, grade five, I was spending countless quarters in the, in the arcades at the time. That's how we used to play video games. Um, and in street fighter one. the last two characters, the last bosses, both were from Thailand and they displayed this art. So at that time, I mean, this is pre-Google, pre-YouTube, pre-Facebook, pre-Instagram. If a world existed before that for a lot of young people, they don't seem to remember that anything like that ever existed. But in that time, you know, martial arts movies and magazines were sort of the only access you had to martial arts and now video games started to develop.
00:05:25
Speaker
And you know these two at these two video game characters were from Thailand. They displayed the style. I was doing another martial art at 16. And ah one of the senior students came in with authentic Muay Thai shorts. And he's like, there's a Thai trainer teaching at St. Clair and Bathurst close to St. Mike's.
00:05:44
Speaker
And so obviously I immediately booked it up to that gym to buy a pair of the shorts and the the young the short muscular time and that was teaching there is like, Oh, you cannot just buy shorts. You have to do the class. And and i and I jumped in and did the class three times, but you know, at 16 chasing girls, playing basketball, trying to get good grades. I didn't have the bandwidth to add another pursuit.
00:06:05
Speaker
right Shortly after that, maybe about another year later, when I realized you know my basketball wasn't going to go as far as I want wanted it to, I dove into Muay Thai. And then shortly after that, maybe another year and a half later, I was in Thailand. And that was a crazy thing, you know calling a family meeting, telling them that I'm going to travel. They thought I was going to say I had gotten someone pregnant. And dishes were thrown because I decided to forego or put off university to go to Thailand at the time again.
00:06:33
Speaker
No Google, no YouTube, so it was like me saying I'm going to Mars. um And you know by some strange stroke of luck, it all ended up working out.
Philosophy and Discipline of Muay Thai
00:06:42
Speaker
So that's kind of- So in Thailand, you were there for for training and competing then?
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah, the first time I went, I stayed for a year. And really, it was just to submerge myself into the actual art and the culture. And so, you know, learning here was very good. I did have a Thai trainer here, Master Suchart. He's a big part of my my my my growth, my career, my exposure to the sport. But, you know, being completely submerged in learning exactly how they trained, learning exactly, you know, what it meant to the culture, the the work ethic and and how much I would have to dedicate if I wanted to be any good. you know and was when When I was playing basketball, you know there were times where I was pretty good, but I seemed to only work on the things that I was strong at. And then when I moved into Muay Thai, I took the different approach and sort of worked completely on my weaknesses until I made them not weaknesses anymore. And that I think was what accelerated my growth. And it seems like there's a whole philosophy behind it as there is in many martial arts, is that right?
00:07:40
Speaker
Absolutely. i mean there there's a you know Because it had come from from the battlefield, it was always something that was tied very much to the identity of the people and tied very much to the identity of the culture. And with that, you know Thailand being a Buddhist country, it has some principles of you know no mind, of of of intense focus, of dedication, of self-discipline. It certainly takes a great amount of self-discipline to be able to master these techniques. right so all of those things um you know benefit in all areas of life beyond just what happens in your training and in the ring, for sure. Right. And is that something that you still hold ah in your own life? It gives you a a sense. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but i would it's almost like meditation, some of the advantages of meditation, which is ah ah you know a a sense of calmness calmness and a sense of being part of a wider world. Is that to is that something that you get out of it?
00:08:36
Speaker
100%. I would say i mean I've been doing it for close to 31 years now and so and it's been the set the central and focal point of my life in terms of how I go about everything that I do. I think what the biggest gift it gave me, um you know the the level of success that I've achieved in it is the ability to think through things without necessarily beating myself up or attacking myself and understanding that every solution has a problem or sorry every problem has a solution and it may take a little time to find it but it can be found right and every single movement in Muay Thai it's like chess it's like high-speed chess every single movement has a counter has an answer
00:09:14
Speaker
And the goal is to try to do that without getting taken out. right So you approach problems a little bit differently. There's a quote from the film Fight Club. if Remember that that says, you know once you've been in a fight, the volume on everything else in your life gets turned down a few notches. And I would attest to that being completely true. Interesting.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And you know, the calmness, I think what it what the calmness actually is, is the ability to be completely present. So, you know, not allowing yourself to get too far into the future and, and you know, create anxiety, not in allowing yourself to get too far into the past and creating regret or depression, but literally staying completely in the moment and choosing the right answer. And if you're able to do that, you know, you know, in in sequence, then you ultimately end up with a successful outcome, right? But it's like you're focusing completely on the outcome.
00:10:01
Speaker
You may force through something or you may not see an answer that's right in front of you. So basically, strangely enough, when you're going super fast, it slows you down. It slows you down. It allows you to think and process a little bit quicker.
00:10:14
Speaker
Fantastic. Fantastic.
The World Muay Thai League
00:10:16
Speaker
So let's talk about the world Muay Thai league. help Tell us what what you're what you're doing there. And I know just for our audience to be aware, I'm involved in it as well, but but you are certainly the driving force. So let's let's talk about the league a little bit.
00:10:32
Speaker
Well, the league is ah is an interesting thing. So when I was ah when I was competing, coming up into the last last years of my competition time, which would have been, you know, 2008, 2009, 2010. You know, interestingly, just as quick going back to a previous answer, I said, you know, when I told my family that I was going to do Muay Thai instead of going to school, there was a it wasn't received well. And then in the years 2008, 2009, I was able to be part of this charity celebrity golf tournament that was happening in Jamaica where my family is from. I met dignitaries and ministers and and and that that of course changed the the the perspective of my family. Right. While I was there the first year I was invited to be on this very um prestigious fight card that had a number of champions fighting called Champions of Champions and it was you know 10 different world title fights and then the following year
00:11:31
Speaker
they had asked me to organize the the fight night. So as crazy as is ah and as ambitious as that was, I was both competing as well as organizing the single largest Muay Thai event in history with 10 world title fights and the biggest names in the sport on it. um And so that was sort of the beginning of it because, you know, you had all the best athletes in one place at one time and it, you know, drew quite a bit of attention.
00:11:57
Speaker
um And then, you know, when I when I retired from fighting, I was like, OK, well, how can I continue that that momentum? And so the concept really was born there. um A year later, I had we had done sort of a beta test version of it, having three events in in different parts of the world, doing also with it a ah documentary series to to support the stories of the athletes. And then, you know, the timing wasn't quite right in the market. And then, you know, 2016,
00:12:27
Speaker
Muay Thai becomes um provisionally recognized by the IOC. And I mentioned, again, 2021, it becomes fully fully recognized. And so that that swell of of of of of momentum that was growing with the sport allowed it to be something that was a little bit more manageable to investors, a little bit more manageable to television networks. And so we we began to rebuild the project um until we' are we're at the point that we're at today where we're almost ready to launch. so The sport was about getting the top best athletes in that sport from all over the world, drawing them into the league and having them compete on a year round tournament um for for the world championship with an off season, a draft um and the stories of each athletes and their culture. So it's a it's a big deal and it's something that I think our sport has needed. And, you know, the the world seems to love combat sports from boxing to m MMA. and And I think this is absolutely the right time for it.
Muay Thai vs. MMA
00:13:24
Speaker
Well, that that's the that's the other thing. I mean, ah and m MMA has shown that there's an a huge and growing audience for this even in North America and that obviously ah there are competitors who want to compete and there are sponsors who want to sponsor. So that that is that kind of your, are you using that template?
00:13:47
Speaker
um Interestingly, yes. and And simultaneously, no. So, interestingly, yes. Obviously, you you can see that immediately the the reception of the market to combat sports. I think it's something that you know has been here for as long as human as humanity has been here. is that there's been combat, right? And so there's always, you know, from the gladiators and the Colosseum in Rome and until what's happening now, I think that, you know, there's always ah a great draw and a great a spiritual connection and a great, you know, interest in in watching, you know, combat, right? and So that is is definitely a part of, you know, taking that template. But I would say, you know, m MMA is amazing. And, and you know, what what Dana White and the UFC have been able to do has been, you know,
00:14:32
Speaker
unsurpassed. There's no other organization that has ah reached that level in the short period of time. They've created something that was amazing. Of course, they've had their growing pains. They've had to change their rules and and change the regulations and all of that to be you know accepted in different states. And then from that, it's grown into you know huge international stardom athletes from all over the world. Of course, they had their biggest single event that they had ever had here in Toronto.
00:14:55
Speaker
um and And that would show that you know the the reach of the sport is you know all over the world. They're doing events in Abu Dhabi and England. so that that would show for sure. And those are definitely things that we want to learn from and grow from. But I think our sport, interestingly, because it has such a long history, we actually have a tiny bit of a different approach because of the fact that there's an Olympic movement, because of the fact that there's been talent in the sport for 2000 years. I think it bears a good omen for us to have that level of talent when you're putting a sport on the world stage, on on primetime television,
00:15:29
Speaker
you know you want to have a depth of talent and ah and a field of of of coming athletes, ah you know a pipeline of athletes that you would like you would have for Premier League soccer or La Liga or the and NBA or or or baseball or the and NHL. like There's always a ah grassroots system building all the way up to the professional level. It's a mature sport in that sense, right? Absolutely. and so Really, what it is is just giving taking the fraction and faction um market and unified into one large platform where the best can actually show their stuff. So there's lots of things were taken from it. Sorry. And then there is definitely some things that we would be adding that is our own. So ah let's talk about the Olympics.
Muay Thai at the Paris Olympics
00:16:11
Speaker
to Tell me about that story. You were invited to attend because Muay Thai was a demonstration sport. Is that right?
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, first and foremost, Paris is an amazing city, if anyone has ever been or had the opportunity to go. It's it's just that is it's pretty awesome. And then when you go there during the Olympics, it's, you know, it's something that the energy of that place has turned up, you know, 100 percent. It was it was an amazing experience. And and basically what had happened was Club of France, which is ah you know a part of the ancillary um organization that was supporting the Olympics.
00:16:49
Speaker
um invited Muay Thai and through IFMA, which is our sports version of FIFA. It's like the the organization that runs our sport internationally worldwide. They're the ones who are responsible for ah IOC recognition. They've been working long and hard for you know a good 30 years to get that recognition for the sport and they've achieved it. So they partnered together and they had invited you know the 24 Beth athletes from around the world who have been IFMA champions and we do have
Future of Muay Thai in the Olympics
00:17:18
Speaker
one here in Canada, a gentleman named
00:17:20
Speaker
a young man named Riley Foden, who you know has been winning at the junior junior levels and winning at the you know the youth levels. And now he's in the senior division um to to compete. And you know I was lucky enough to be a part of his training and and and be a part of the experience of having the first Canadian on on the Olympic stage from our sport. It was pretty pretty i amazing.
00:17:42
Speaker
So there was um um actual matches there with male and female categories? Absolutely. There were, there were two days of fights. 24 athletes with 12 fights a day. um And, and, you know, the top athletes in each weight division and both male and female um athletes competed.
00:18:01
Speaker
Um, and normally at a world championships, you'd have like 1200 athletes and it's a large tournament in each weight class and people just fight down to the, to the championships. But I think what will happen at the Olympics is it will be a little bit of a ah different format where it's only the top guy, um, top athletes competing. Of course, that's what the Olympics represent.
00:18:18
Speaker
and And so they just invited the the highest ranked athletes in each weight division to compete, and they did. And there were seminars and, and and you know, you with the biggest name in our sport, a guy named Boa Kao, was there doing a demonstration. They gave ah seminars for all the kids there with a French world champion, an English female world champion in Mount Barlow. The French champion was Jimmy Vienneau and then Boa Kao. And so there was a huge swell of of dignitaries from Thailand, from other parts of the world. It was a really big deal, and it was ah a who's who of our sport all being there at once, and it was a pretty amazing experience to be a part of. Yeah, I know that sounds amazing. And ah so you you got a sense of what what was going on in Paris during the Olympics.
Growth of Muay Thai in Canada
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, you know, the the the French are are very proud people. And so at any given time in any part of the city, you could hear them screaming from wherever you were, just because, you know, whether it's people watching television or people, you know, there was a right where the ring was, there was a, you know, a hundred foot screen. And it was always there with about 30,000 people in front of it cheering. So for handball, for for football, for tennis, for any sport that the French were being involved were involved in, there was a huge groundswell and there's a huge you know support and singing in the crowd like they would at a football game and and all of that. And so that spirit was throughout the whole city, right? And so you're you're just feeling that the electricity of all of that and you're there to compete at the same time. It was an amazing experience to be a part of. Absolutely. That's amazing. So is it locked down for Los Angeles 2028 that Muay Thai will be
00:19:52
Speaker
Well, we don't know yet, but I do know that there was one of the events that they had there was that the the whole Muay Thai delegation went to the Olympic House and there was an MOU signed in kind for that. So obviously between now and then time will take it will take some time to actually go through the official steps. But you know, that is our greatest hope that it will be a full fledged sport for the 2020 2028 LA Olympics. Right. I mean, I don't want to disparage any other sport, but some sports that were there that I'm thinking, okay, that's marginal, but this is, this is an athletic endeavor that involves strategy and discipline and training. So. it i and And there's a huge pipeline of depth of, of, of high, high level talent, right? So yeah i mean obviously it's what we're all pulling for and what we're all hoping for. And we, I mean, we will know when we know, but it is looking good. It is looking good for that.
00:20:48
Speaker
And in Canada, so yeah there's a, there are Muay Thai training going on and, and competitions and clubs and everything, right? Absolutely. I mean, I think in Toronto alone, there's somewhere close to like 150 gyms and across the country, there's a great amount. And you know, each of these gyms have a good amount of students in them. And there's, you know, an organization here in Ontario called Muay Thai Ontario that's putting on events.
00:21:14
Speaker
every week, every weekend. And you know there's a big one coming this weekend in Kitchener called the CMTO, which is actually a qualification for next year's national team. um There's events all the time. And you know people can certainly you know find you know MTO stuff on on social media and find out where the next events are if they want to come out and watch, support local athletes. um But yeah, there is events all across the country as well. And and the sport has as as taken. I mean, I think a lot of people do it as part of their fitness regimen because it's something that's exciting, something that you know keeps you motivated and definitely helps you get fit. And then there are people who go from that and and wanting to compete. And so that that that has there's definitely opportunity from that. When I was an athlete,
00:22:00
Speaker
it, it wasn't possible to compete in our sport. So I spent most of my career fighting abroad. um But now, you know, it's an amazing thing, you know, to in my lifetime, see how much it's grown for it to be something that was almost that was in some provinces illegal. Now, now being an Olympic sport within my lifetime is a pretty big deal. And so to see that all of these young athletes now have a ah great opportunity to and to go forward and and to to possibly get Olympic gold and then pass that can maybe be a part of the league, I think is a great opportunity for them to. to deb Are there ah cross competitors? like That is to say, like, I don't know, jiu-jitsu or something like that. Do they cross compete or is it in these silos?
00:22:42
Speaker
No, no, there's a lot of athletes, I think that that cross train, like, for instance, the m MMA athlete would do definitely Muay Thai would do boxing, do jujitsu would do judo, um right, if they want to compete
Muay Thai's Influence on MMA
00:22:53
Speaker
in MMA. And then there have been a couple of our athletes who have even been on my events in the past that have been champion in the UFC. So Valentina Chavchank was one of them, Joanna, ah Joanna, um your yours is there a day that she's pardon me for British in her last name. She's been a champion as well. Israel Adesania comes out of kickboxing and, you know, there's Anderson Silver comes out of Muay Thai. Jose Aldo comes out of Muay Thai, our great Canadian champion. George Jean-Pierre has trained in Muay Thai as well. So all of these athletes have had a measure of Muay Thai in their arsenal. Gotcha. Gotcha.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. So, uh, from your perspective, uh, Muay Thai, uh, is something that ah Canadians are involved in. Young Canadians are involved in. Is it a, is it a sport or I and i shouldn't call it a sport but in this, in this context, but a discipline that is, that you can do for many, many decades
Muay Thai for All Ages
00:23:52
Speaker
in your life. Is is that something that you would recommend? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I think, you know, the benefits of it in terms of just,
00:23:59
Speaker
physical health, balance, ah body body control, body mastery, body knowledge, and then of course the mental benefits of self-discipline and calmness and and and focus that it brings is it's it's priceless. I don't know if you could get all of that in one specific discipline besides Muay Thai because on one hand it's quite physically um uh there's a good amount of physical challenge and there's a good amount mental challenge and they and they seem to be bottomless in terms of how many levels you can achieve it just keeps going if you if you keep going yourself right right right you can you know my my my my coach master sui chart is in his 60s i think he just turned 65 and he's still one of the most fit people i know and yeah i don't know another person at his age that looks as fit as he is i remember i called training in thailand with uh
00:24:49
Speaker
you know, Grandmaster Yotong was considered the the the greatest teacher in our sport. And, you know, up until he was 75, he was able to do some things with his body that I still am yet to be able to do. So those things carry me, ah allow me to to move forward and and keep searching and keep growing and keep studying to find, you know, the higher levels and deeper levels of mastery. So yeah, it's something that you can do ah your entire life really.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
00:25:18
Speaker
Clifton Brown, it's been great having you on the program to talk about the world Muay Thai League and your experiences during the Paris Olympics. ah Certainly wish you well in your endeavors in this area. Well, thank you so much. I do appreciate the opportunity and I look forward to to pushing this forward for Canada and for the rest of the world's athletes. Absolutely. I'm just going to thank my sponsors one more time, Municipal Solutions.
00:25:42
Speaker
ah John Mutton, by the way, Clifton competes in jujitsu when he's not doing his his advisory services in the municipal area. So give ah John a shout out at municipalsolutions.ca and then Kelly Mitchell. I think he's a golfer, mostly Kelly. ah he's ah He's got a great consultancy as well and you can find him at www.kwmconsulting.com.
00:26:05
Speaker
And again, a shout out to our terrestrial radio sponsor hunters Bay radio dot.com. We'll, but we will be back with an another thing podcast in seven days.