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15. You Never Get Over It! -With Jenna Lebron
77 Plays5 years ago
Jenna Lebron shares her journey of becoming a widow 8 years ago, with two boys under 2 years of age. Though it has been an experience filled with heartache, it has also been filled with love, support, faith and hope!
She shares her favorite books that helped her in her grieving process as well as helping her sons navigate their grief. Jenna is now paying it forward by helping others who are grieving, by volunteering with a nonprofit organization .
Music: www.rinaldisound.net
Production: Carlos Andres Londono
Get in touch with Kendra: www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com
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Transcript
Introduction: Grief as a Scar
00:00:01
Speaker
I always tell my kids, uh, you're always going to have this in your life. It's like a scar. You know, when you, when you, you know, have an injury and you cut, you know, split your head open and they both have scarves, by the way, not a surprise. Um, so I point out their scars and I'm like, you see this scar right here. It's never going to go away. It will always, it will get lighter and less noticeable, but it will never go away. And I said, it's kind of like,
00:00:31
Speaker
grieving and losing someone. You're never gonna get over it.
Podcast Purpose and Guest Introduction
00:00:38
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes and transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief.
00:01:02
Speaker
I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I'm Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now, let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:01:24
Speaker
Welcome to today's episode. I am really excited to be interviewing our guest today. It's my friend, Jenna, and Jenna and I met a year ago, actually, almost to the T around this time, and we met doing a training to become facilitators, grief facilitators.
00:01:44
Speaker
for a nonprofit organization and we actually have not seen each other in person since that weekend that we trained but that weekend we completely hit it off I could just see like something special in her spirit and not everybody that was there as a facilitator to train us facilitators had been through grief
Jenna's Background and Loss Story
00:02:04
Speaker
and
00:02:04
Speaker
But it just happened that the two of us had and we just bonded or chatting and the fact that she knew Spanish and we just kind of got into that. So I'm excited for all of you to get to know her and to hear her story because I know I was really inspired by hearing your story, Jenna. And I am excited for the listeners to learn more about your journey and learn more about you and feel inspired as well.
00:02:32
Speaker
So Jenna, how are you, my friend? I'm good. Thank you, Kendra. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. I'm so happy that you are here. So Jenna, tell the listeners a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? So I grew up in a kind of small town, Lafayette, Louisiana, the southern part of the boot, so to speak.
00:02:58
Speaker
Um, and a group there my entire life. Uh, but I actually moved to Dallas about two and a half years ago. So I'm currently living here in Dallas with my two kids. How old are they? How old are you?
00:03:12
Speaker
They are nine and a half and eight and they're both boys. So lots of boys. Handful. But a good kind of energy, I'm sure. And they probably have each other to blow off some of that energy too with each other. Exactly. Yes. Absolutely. That's good. I'm sure you have to pull them apart a few times too, but at the same time they can blow off some steam, right? Yes. More times than I would like, but yes.
00:03:40
Speaker
That's awesome. I know my mom was the same with my sister and I were two years apart. And so we'd always be kind of fighting. So we'd always get in trouble, but she was my best friends as well. So anyhow. So when we met, we were chatting outside the room. We had a break during our training and we started chatting and you were sharing your story. And I want our listeners to hear about their journey.
00:04:07
Speaker
of how your husband passed away and then your journey of grieving and at the same time also rising above that and raising these two boys. So take us a little bit back to that. First off, how long ago did you get married? How long ago were you married? So actually that's kind of ironic situation. Here we are May 13th and he passed away
00:04:37
Speaker
on May 28th of 2012. Our fifth wedding anniversary was May 26th. So we had just made five years, two days before he died and we weren't together. He was away. So we're supposed to celebrate when he came back. So yeah, the irony of the situation is it's right around that time.
00:05:01
Speaker
So around that time, within the moment that we're recording this podcast is near your anniversary. Now, when you say that, because it's been then, so you pass it away, you said, it's been eight years. When you say that, what emotions come to mind still? And the reason I ask that is because a lot of times, you know, some people that are maybe living, it's very fresh for them to have gone through a loss.
00:05:27
Speaker
maybe don't know a little bit how the grief journey kind of goes. So when you think of dates like this, what comes to mind to you? You know, building up to it, I think now looking back on it, subconsciously, I think my mood changes a little bit.
00:05:50
Speaker
you know, my stress level kind of goes up and I didn't really notice that until a few years in. Um, then I started saying, you know, I'm, I'm more agitated now.
Insights from Nora McInerny's TED Talk
00:05:59
Speaker
And, oh, it just so happens that it's going to be, you know, it's coming up on his death anniversary. So that was a few years and that was interesting to find. Um, something else that I really was surprised to find was that, um, probably about a year was coming up on the first year anniversary of his death.
00:06:19
Speaker
And I was thinking, okay, you know what? I've, you know, just powered through the grieving process. I've done in my due diligence in that area, you know, I'm good. I'm at a semi peaceful place. Um, and I felt like I was, you know, I'm like, it's coming up on the first year. I'll be okay. I've got this. And then that day came and I just completely fell apart. So it caught me by surprise. And I've had a lot of those.
00:06:49
Speaker
surprise moments where I'm not really expecting to feel something in that moment and it just it just catches me and it's I Don't know it's just really it's it kind of throws me off and That's one of the things I remember thinking I've got this and I really didn't have it a year in and I'm like man This is this tough. I wonder if it's gonna happen every year and every year
00:07:19
Speaker
You know, it's kind of like, I always tell my kids, uh, you're always going to have this in your life. It's like a scar. You know, when you, when you, you know, have an injury and you cut, you know, split your head open and they both have scars, by the way, uh, not a surprise. Um, so I point out their scars and I'm like, you see this scar right here. It's never going to go away. It will always, it will get lighter and less noticeable, but it will never go away.
00:07:49
Speaker
And I said, it's kind of like grieving and losing someone. You're never gonna get over it. And so many people say, are you over it? When are you gonna get over it? And they always use those words, which those aren't the right words, but I don't fault people because I know that sometimes they just, they're not the most tactful in how they say it, but you don't actually get over it.
00:08:19
Speaker
you move forward with it. And I, that was a good thing from Nora. I know you follow Nora. I can't say her name. Yeah. If the listeners don't know what we are talking about, yeah, tell them a little bit how to find, like you can find our YouTube, a TED talk she did. And that's the first, that's the one I first saw her was the TED talk she did.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yes. Um, she also has a podcast and she has, I have one of her books too. It's, uh, I think her podcast is, uh, thanks for asking. Uh, I forgot, but it's, um, she's really inspirational. I saw a couple of her, uh, I saw a Ted talk that she did and I was just so inspirational and so powerful that she said, you don't get over it. You move forward with it.
00:09:12
Speaker
And her TED Talk is really, really relatable to you because in hers, it's her spouse that passed away. And so it's her husband that died. And so that definitely it's a huge connection also with you, for you, I guess, because it's the same type of relationship of somebody who's died.
00:09:34
Speaker
Now, um, so when he passed away, it was a sudden
Arturo's Story and the Helicopter Crash
00:09:38
Speaker
death. Did you, did you want to share the, a little bit about that and about how old were the kids and a little bit about what, um, what happened, uh, during that time? Sure. Sure. So, um, we were just to give you a little bit about our backstory. We were, um, he was one of my first boyfriends. We were high school sweethearts. We started dating, um,
00:10:02
Speaker
We were on the same age, uh, a few months apart. So we started dating around junior year in high school. So 16 ish, um, dated for about eight years. And then we were married for five. So total in total, we were together for 13. And, um, throughout that time, um, we had kind of moved from. When my oldest was a few months old for the first year of his life from like two months to a year, we lived in Dominican Republic, which is where my late husband was from.
00:10:32
Speaker
He went to fly he flew helicopters and when he was done with his training here in the US He found work flying for for a tourist Company there in Dominican doing helicopter tours. So we I moved there with him for about a year It was a
00:10:52
Speaker
very hard to acclimate to a different country. That in itself is a huge grief story just there. Oh yeah. Did you know the language then? Did you know Spanish then? Or did you learn it when you lived there?
00:11:07
Speaker
Thankfully I had spent a semester in Costa Rica, my last semester of college. So I was fluent. Yes. I was pretty fluent. So I was able to get around grocery store bank. None of that's online. So you had to go actually go in person. So, um, it was a cultural shock, uh, to say the least, but, uh, I did it for a year and then I got pregnant with my second child. And then we came back here. Um, he found a job with, you know, in our hometown of Lafayette and,
00:11:36
Speaker
We were excited because we'd be around family and, you know, actually took a tour of the company, um, where he's going to fly. And there was, you know, it was ironic because it was super safe company. Um, and we had about our youngest was born April 17th. And, um, he passed away on May the 28th. So our youngest was about six weeks.
00:12:04
Speaker
And my oldest was about 20 months old, so both under the age of two. He was in a, in Louisiana, it's very common if you work offshore to work two weeks off, two weeks on. So he was basically, he'd work two weeks, he'd drive to the coast of Louisiana, fly for the company offshore, fly workers offshore to and from oil rigs.
00:12:32
Speaker
he'd do that for two weeks and then he would drive back and he would be home for two weeks. So it was like a two weeks there, two weeks at home. Um, so that's why he was a way that when it was your anniversary was because he was in the off time. Yes, correct. So, um, so basically he, um, this happened, he was going to fly, he was flying bigger helicopters than he was in Dominican. So it was a new experience for him as a lot more stressful and complicated. Um, and.
00:13:02
Speaker
You know, I think it was just the perfect storm of miscommunication. Um, they had a rig, they had two helipads on this, on this, uh, rig. There were two rigs like sandwiched together. There were two helipads, a bigger one and a smaller one. And I think, um, they told him, you know, pilots are, they always, when they receive instructions or something of the radio, they always have to confirm.
00:13:28
Speaker
They're given a green light. They have to do a circle around. So, I mean, he did all of what he was supposed to. Um, it's just, I think they referred to the whole unit as one name and, but they also had part of the rig under the same name. So, um, I think he was thinking he was supposed to fly to this smaller one that was supposed to be closed off. They were the.
00:13:54
Speaker
company was supposed to, by regulation, they were supposed to have put a big red X on it and they didn't. And so being a new pilot, he didn't know any better. There was an oil derrick sticking out over that smaller helipad that was very dangerous. And so they were supposed to have shut it down, but they didn't. And he was supposed to go to the other helipad. Well, I think it was just miscommunication. Um, so he tried to land there and realized he
00:14:21
Speaker
He was too dangerous. So he pulled back and his rotor hit the oil derrick and he just spun into the Gulf. Was he alone in the helicopter? Yes. He was heading there to pick up. So he was on his way to pick somebody up from there. Thank God. Thank God. Because I would not be able to live with myself if someone else was in that helicopter.
00:14:49
Speaker
I thank God that he was on his way to pick somebody up and didn't have somebody in the helicopter. But yeah, he was on his way to pick somebody up and just, you know, the helicopter went went, you know, upside down in the water and nobody really did anything. And they just watched it sink. And I think, according to the coroner's report, I think he was just
00:15:12
Speaker
When they fly, their head is very close to the window. And I think from the centrifugal force of the things spinning, I think he just knocked himself out because they said he had severe head trauma. So I think he just passed out and then he drowned.
00:15:31
Speaker
Does that bring you a little bit of comfort? I know for me, like my sisters was a head trauma and it was pretty instant, pretty much her passing. I mean, it was two hours afterwards, but it was head trauma. So does it bring you? For me, it brings me a little bit of comfort, at least knowing that she didn't really suffer to some extent. Is that something that you think of too? Sometimes like that aspect? I don't really know. So the way the universe works, I totally believe in the universe and
00:16:00
Speaker
It bringing people to you who were supposed to be brought to you and later on years down the road I you know, I was always friends with this one girl But it just so happened years later after his his death this friend her husband She was a good friend of mine. Her husband was the diver. Come to find out that we've only got him No
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. Wait, this is you. So she was your good friend, but you did. You didn't know that he'd be, wait, she was your friend. She was during the time or after. When he was alive. Okay. Okay. I, I don't think they wanted to upset me or say anything about it. And I found out later on through somebody else that, Hey, you do realize that I heard it was Alejandra, her, her husband.
00:16:53
Speaker
was he was an offshore diver and he was the one called out to go and retrieve him. And I was like, I have to talk to him because I need answers. I was, you know, the NTSB, they give you certain answers, but I don't, I don't really trust what they had to say. They were very, um, a lot of what they said was, um, a contradicted what, you know, a lot of the information was contradictory. So I was kind of skeptical to believe what they said. Um,
00:17:23
Speaker
And when I found out her husband was the one who went out, I was like, I gotta talk to him. And I talked to the, before this, I talked to the coroner and they were like, yes, you know, based on the head trauma, we're sure that he passed out and he, based on the amount of fluid in his lungs that we found, he didn't inhale a lot. So he wasn't, to our knowledge, he wasn't alive and struggling. And so I was okay with that. I was at peace.
00:17:50
Speaker
And then the diver, my friend's husband said, well, his seatbelt, you know, they always wear their seatbelt. His seatbelt was off. And one side of his, they always have to wear an of their inflatable vest. It's not inflated, but they always have to wear it when they fly. So if they lay in the water, they inflate it. One side of it was inflated. And I've said that, you know, and then all the emotions started again. Cause I said,
00:18:20
Speaker
What if he was alive and he was struggling? And so I was just trying to, this was like, you know, how everything was resurfacing at this point. And I was.
00:18:33
Speaker
It really upset me not knowing. I thought I knew and I was like, maybe I don't know. It changed. Yeah. That's so, yeah. Cause you had already kind of found some comfort and then all of a sudden it's like this, this change of story makes it all kind of resurface and you kind of have to reprogram yourself probably to the new, the new, the new information that you now know. Well, my, my theory, my, what I believe now is that pop,
00:19:01
Speaker
know, given the information I have, probably what happened is when he hit his head, he had a certain amount of time because as soon as they realize they're going down, they start the procedure of what they have to do. And I think that he had just enough time before it knocked him out completely out. So I think he, as he was falling and, you know, he was
00:19:22
Speaker
inflating and doing what he had to do. And then he lost consciousness and then didn't complete it. That's what he probably even lost. He probably even lost consciousness trying to inflate that they have to inflate it meant with their mouth. I think they were only the pulling. Oh, I think they pull or they might have to do the mouth. I'm not. Yeah, I don't. I'm not quite sure. But yeah, so I think that in the process, he but he was out of his seatbelt. I think he took it off once he knew he was going down. So
00:19:51
Speaker
That gives me comfort. Maybe that's not what happened. You know what? But at the same time, it's like what is going to change by knowing what happens? It's like to some extent, it's like keeping a story that is going to bring you comfort, I think is the best. Do you know what I mean? Because like you're saying, it's like the knowing wouldn't change the actual fact that your husband
00:20:14
Speaker
is not, you know, living. I'm so sorry, Jenna, and thank you for sharing that again with me and the details and with the listeners, because those things aren't easy to share, even eight years down the line. But I know that sometimes it actually helps for that processing again, sometimes when we share these things.
00:20:38
Speaker
the um so then you were home how how did you find out and yeah how did you find out about it and um what happened next my mom and i were actually out looking for houses um we were arturo and arturo is my late husband's name arturo and i were out um we were planning on buying a house soon we were renting at that time
Coping with Arturo's Death and Family Support
00:21:03
Speaker
Um, so my mom and I were looking at houses and my father-in-law calls me and he says, Jenna, I need you to, he asked me, what are you doing? I said, I'm, I'm looking at houses with my mom. Um, he said, well, I need you to come, come home immediately. I need you to come to my house right now. And I was like, what's going on? Cause I had, I thought it was my kids because I had, um, dropped my kids off at my in-laws. Um, so they could watch them while I went out and looked at houses with my mom. Um,
00:21:32
Speaker
I thought there was something wrong with my kids. So I rushed home. I was freaking out. When I got there, I saw my dad's car there. My dad was at home. So I knew at that moment that something was really, really, really wrong. And the first thing I said was, you know, are the kids okay? I never thought in a million years it was my husband. I said, you know, like what's wrong? Are the kids okay? What happened? They said, our tour has been in an accident.
00:22:01
Speaker
I was thinking, okay, you know, I mean, he had been in a lot of accidents. Basically in his life, he, every time he'd get on anything moving or, you know, uh, uh, anything motorized, he would fly off and hurt himself. That was just a known fact. So, um, I was thinking, you know, he just something that he was fine. They said, well, he is helicopter crashed.
00:22:27
Speaker
And, you know, we're waiting to hear, and I was thinking he's fine because he was very fit. I mean, we're talking about a guy who was very athletic all his life. You know, I mean, he had done this training a million times. Um, not, not a million times, but he had done it repeatedly. And, uh, when they train, um,
00:22:53
Speaker
when he was employed by this company in Lafayette, they had them go through this training where it's a simulated training. So they put them in this Olympic sized pool with this, uh, piece of a helicopter and they spin them around in the helicopter in the water. And then, so that kind of disorient them to simulate real life circumstances. And then they have to crawl out of the helicopter.
00:23:17
Speaker
So he did it. I mean, he did it successfully multiple times. So it's kind of like what they do when they're also doing the simulations of like we're astronauts or like those kinds of things that they do certain things like that for them as well. Yes, absolutely. So he had passed that test. So I was like, okay, well, he's floating out there somewhere. They just need to go find him. And I was convinced that he was floating somewhere out there that he had gotten out of the helicopter because he was 29 years old.
00:23:44
Speaker
Um, if she, you know, fit, I mean, he could swim, but it's not like, you know, I said he can do this. So he's just out there floating. They need to find him. And then hours went by and hours went by. This was when I got the call from my father-in-law. I remember I'll never forget. It was four 20. It was four 20 or four 20 something in the afternoon. And I remember six o'clock came at six 30 and seven o'clock. And I was like, this is.
00:24:12
Speaker
This is not good. I'm one of the representatives from PHI. What does PHI stand for? Sorry, like the... Sorry. PHI is the company that he worked for, the helicopter company. Oh, okay. Okay. So one of the representatives from the helicopter company that he worked for, they came to sit with us. And I think he knew, he already knew, but he couldn't technically say anything until they found him, like either his body or him alive, like either one.
00:24:40
Speaker
So he sat there and sat there and he was a waiting game and it was the worst, worst time. Like it was the most stressful time, just not knowing. And we were, his family, we were all just around, just like, I mean, it was, it was, it was incredibly stressful.
00:25:01
Speaker
So at this, so for 20, you got the call at this point, then what time is it at this point, then when you're sitting and waiting and you have the two babies, you had to put them to bed, probably all, no, every, all the process of that. Or did they stay with your parents or they were there. So my, um, cause my in-laws were beside themselves. They couldn't really do anything. So my sister in law was there and she took the oldest one and was feeding him.
00:25:26
Speaker
And I think my mom probably had my infant, my youngest. Is it a blur? Does it feel like a blur? Yeah, it does. Like time stopped. I remember bits and pieces, but I'll never forget the feeling that I had in that moment. The details are a blur. I remember those about eight o'clock when they finally said the divers found his body and
00:25:55
Speaker
He was in the helicopter. Um, and it was, it was really difficult. Um, cause I thought for sure this was like, there's no, I was like, there's no way. Cause everything was just fine. And all of a sudden it's like, you're telling me my life is flipped upside down in an instant. Like it's like, it doesn't soak in and it doesn't soak in for a long time. Um, but it's, it's.
00:26:27
Speaker
I just remember falling, absolutely falling apart. I mean, just like losing it. And it's so many thoughts were going through my mind and it was, it was, it was, it was the most, it tops at the most horrible experience of my life at this point.
00:26:51
Speaker
Thank you for sharing. I know it's not easy to relive that and I know we as grief facilitators sometimes share our stories with others too in those processes.
00:27:06
Speaker
because I know it helps sometimes for somebody else to listen what we've gone through. So I appreciate you sharing those details. Jenna, let's fast forward a little bit and to what was it for you then in that process of here you are a widow at 29, were you already 29 or were you 28?
00:27:29
Speaker
At that moment, with two kids under two, you lived then near your family at that time. What were the things you started to hold on to? Because I'm sure those first few weeks were just chaotic. A lot of the planning of funeral, this, that, and all those kind of things that happen in the chaos of it all that sometimes don't even allow us to give us the time to really
00:27:57
Speaker
do the grieving process sometimes when you're like in the busyness of it. So what were the things that you started to do to kind of help you kind of get up? Of course, you had two kids. So share a little bit about that. You know, it's like, you know, when these things happen to you,
00:28:24
Speaker
You feel like your world just comes to a screeching halt, but yet it doesn't. The world keeps turning, things keep happening and life just continues. And you feel like, well, no, you're supposed to stop because my life stopped and you all need to just pause because, you know, to recognize what's happened to me. But it's like, it's almost like you're forced to continue. Like, you know, the revolving door. It's almost like a revolving door because
00:28:54
Speaker
the door is going to keep revolving and it's going to push you out. Um, so whether you want to get a visual, that's such a good visual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great visual. It'll keep revolving and you're just going to either, you know, you're going to have to keep going. You can't stop. So, you know, the, the days after that, I obviously had a lot of trouble sleeping and my father-in-law
Balancing Motherhood and Grief
00:29:22
Speaker
He was a pediatrician, he's retired now, but he had given me some, I think some Xanax or some kind of anti-anxiety thing. And I remember taking it, I'd never taken this in my life and I took it, and of course it put me to sleep, but I couldn't wake up the next morning. I was extremely groggy, hard to wake, and then my son, you know, my kids were like bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 6.30, 7 a.m.
00:29:50
Speaker
And I had, I couldn't function. So I had to stop. I had to stop taking it. Um, and I just had to kind of do what I had to do. Um, and I just had to, even though I didn't want to get up, um, I had, I just had to like keep pushing and I felt like I, I don't want to, I want to just crawl in a hole and I want to be alone and I don't want to have to, I don't want anyone to have to depend on me. I don't want.
00:30:20
Speaker
You know, kids to be depending on me. I don't need that right now. I need to be alone. I need to be able to deal with this and I can't deal with it. If I'm having to take care of kids and you know, I, over the years I've realized that they were, they were, um, they were a blessing in disguise. I mean, I say that in this instance, they're always a blessing, but.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, the fact that you had to have a reason to get up and not be able to just crawl in the hole and stay in the hole as long as you wanted to because you had two human beings that were dependent on you getting out of that hole. And so yes, that blessing was there because you needed to be okay for them. So it was kind of, yeah. Yeah. So they forced me to continue pushing even though
00:31:17
Speaker
I wanted to just, you know, crawl in bed and not come out. And I, I just kept, you know, I had to show up every day, whether I liked it or not. And I remember something my dad told me, I'll never forget. And I, he didn't say it with ill intention. I know he was just making a comment, but it stuck with me. And, and I'm glad that he said it. He said, um, as I was.
00:31:46
Speaker
you know, rocking my newborn, my six, six week old, um, trying to breastfeed, which, uh, didn't last that long after my husband's death because extreme stress will drive your milk. So I had to stop. I had to stop. I was forced to stop, which was not, I didn't want that. Um, but I remember rocking him one time and my dad was telling me, you know, infants can sense their mother's mood. They sense.
00:32:17
Speaker
Sadness and they They sense it and they feed off they react to it like it's they pick up on it and I at that moment I remember thinking That I'm not going to do this to my kids This has impacted all of us. You know, I don't want I don't want my my grief I don't want to impose that on my kids and I don't want them to suffer because I'm suffering so
Living Arrangements and Children's Grief
00:32:46
Speaker
I
00:32:46
Speaker
I chose in that moment to put aside my feelings, to be there for my kids. And that's what I did every day. We actually, shortly after my husband passed my in-laws, they wanted us to go live with them. They wanted to help with the kids. And so we lived with them, which was good and bad. We had it's good times, but it was also probably
00:33:09
Speaker
not harder to also Yeah, because then everybody in the home is yes, having those emotions. And I'm sure it was hard for them to see their grandkids without their without their dad there without their own child. It was it was I remember having to put on my happy face. And just I that's when I learned to compartmentalize my feelings. And I forced
00:33:37
Speaker
all the thoughts and the sadness and all of that, I forced it out during the day when I was around my kids and I played with them and I forced myself to be there for them. And then at night is when I did my grieving. So I had to kind of put it on the back burner. And I then, um, at night when I put them to bed is when I sorted through my feelings and that's when I grieved. So it took me longer than most people, um,
00:34:04
Speaker
For instance, my aunt who has grown children, her husband died, but she was able to just, you know, she didn't have kids. So she just got it all out the way very quickly. And they were grown. Yeah. They were not. Right. So I, I had to kind of slowly piece by piece do it over a long period of time. Um, just because I just, sorry, I didn't want them to, um, I didn't want them to suffer.
00:34:35
Speaker
because I suffered. So yeah, so that's basically, that was my journey with how things went. We lived with them for a year, about a year, year and a half. I was trying to grieve. I was trying to deal with their grieving, which was, it was, I don't even know how to describe it, but
00:35:04
Speaker
It was hard. It was difficult because we grieved in different ways and I was taking on trying to help them and then taking on my own stuff and then trying to be there for my kids and then.
00:35:16
Speaker
you know, the lines, the lines get blurred of who's the parent. And eventually I realized it was time for us to move out. So yeah. So is that the moment? So then at that point, when you moved out, that's not when you already moved to Texas. You still stayed in Louisiana in that area. Right. I moved out with the kids. I moved in with my brother. Um, when that was really good for them, cause they had a male figure around, um,
00:35:45
Speaker
And that we moved, we did that for a while. And then eventually, that was a house I rented, and then eventually I bought a house.
00:35:53
Speaker
I want to ask you something, Jenna, just something that just came to my mind, because your kids were so little. I mean, one was a baby, you know, so a newborn, and then the other one was two. How did you explain the death of their dad to them as they were that age? And then kind of how did that change through the years now that they're, you know, eight and seven? Yeah, did I say right? Eight and seven.
00:36:22
Speaker
Um, they're eight and nine eight and nine. Sorry. Yeah. They, um, so when it first happened, of course, my six, six week old was way too young. Um, the two year old, he was, you know, he understood that he called him Papa. Papa went away for a little while and then he came back and he went away and came back. So the two weeks, every time he'd gone for two weeks. Okay. So I remember, um,
00:36:50
Speaker
telling him, you know, Papa is, you know, I kind of explained it in age appropriate terms. Uh, I use the word heaven because that's the, that's a very, um, accepted term, I guess, for the other place or it's a widely used term. So, um, I'm not really religious in that way, but that's for a later story. But, uh,
00:37:16
Speaker
Um, I, I used, I said, pop is in heaven and he's not coming back. And usually when I would bring him up, bring up his dad or their dad, um, Liam was, I think at first he was two. So his way of dealing with it was avoiding it. So I would bring him up and then he would, all right. Okay. And then he'd run off and play. So it was very, um,
00:37:43
Speaker
he didn't feel comfortable so he would either change a subject or leave or go play. I don't think he understood it at first until he just didn't come back because I think he was so used to okay he's away for a while and he's gonna come back. So and I think that played a lot into
00:38:05
Speaker
the separation anxiety that he experienced later when I had him in danger. I was just thinking that if he feels that sometimes when people are away or if you ever were to go on a trip, it had to be a certain period of time in which he just thought that maybe people when they leave long enough that then they don't come back. That is huge. Wow. Even something as simple as daycare. I put him in daycare three times a week, not even all day.
00:38:35
Speaker
and because I needed a break.
00:38:37
Speaker
I needed just, you know, I needed some time to do. My kids are 15 months apart and my husband was alive and I still need it. My kid, my two, I think I put him at two and a half when, yeah, cause then Mila was like around six months or so. And so I totally get it. I was the same. And I felt a little guilty to some extent because I'm like, I need it. I need it. It's for, it's for their safety. If I have a little bit of sanity. You're a rationalist.
00:39:07
Speaker
I wasn't working, um, at the time, but I just, you know, and I did feel guilty. Like you said, it's like, well, I'm not working. So, but I, I felt like this is self care. This is important. And I've always been a big advocate for self care. I, I never hesitate to take time. If I, if I feel that I really need it, uh, for self care. So I, when I put him in daycare, I mean, he would just.
00:39:34
Speaker
It was, I could see the separation anxiety and I knew it was, I knew where it was coming from. Um, but it's just, there's nothing that I could really do. It's just over time, I think he realized, okay, mom is coming back. Mom is coming back. Um, and over the years, I mean, they a lot, a lot for a long time after that.
00:39:59
Speaker
They would ask me if I would go anywhere, you know, mom, when are you coming back? Are you coming back? You know, like I could see the, the anxiety, um, behind it. And, and I, you know, I mean, you can't really undo that. The only thing you can do is just reassure them. And, you know, I mean, you coming back is just reassurance, but, um, that really stayed with them for a very long time. And, you know,
00:40:28
Speaker
I, as far as the, you know, grieving, um, the kids grieving and going through periods, we had a lot of Evan flow with that. So, I mean, there were times, I remember my oldest was maybe three or four and he was in preschool and all of a sudden I'd be tucking them in at night and, you know, my oldest would say, mom, um, you know, why don't I have a dad? It's not fair.
00:40:56
Speaker
You know, so-and-so has a dad. Why don't I have a dad? And can, can uncle so-and-so, you know, some uncle, he would name, can he be my dad? I'm like, no, it doesn't work that way. And, you know, and it's just like one of those things that you don't have the answers and you have to just.
00:41:13
Speaker
You have it. There's no manual of what to say. You're just as clueless as anybody else. I was just going to say that. It's like, how do I even know that what I'm saying is
00:41:29
Speaker
okay to say to a child this age like I don't know like you're right like and and maybe some of the things that are if there were a manual maybe some kids would be ready for certain things of the manual based on their own experience and their own brain development you know what I mean everybody's just so different so even a manual
00:41:47
Speaker
would really not even serve anybody because even grief is experienced differently for everybody. So there's not really a way to go about it that is rational, right? I know. It's just like, you build the airplane in the air kind of thing. You just kind of wing it. And we went through a lot of that. I think they were seeing other kids' dads picking them up at daycare.
00:42:14
Speaker
that was sparking something in them. And so we went through a lot of those, you know, sad nights and that lasted for a while. And then it, you know, we went through a quiet period where really nothing happened. And then we're back up, up here with the, you know, mom, I'm sad about my dad and why, you know, the questions and the let, you know, then they started asking what happened and, um, why is it this way? Why did these things have to happen? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's just,
00:42:44
Speaker
So over the years, I've had to tailor my story and my information based on their age, and I've given a little bit more information as they've gotten older.
00:42:55
Speaker
just because I feel that they were ready to hear it and to understand more about it. And they get more curious as they grow older. And sometimes that curiosity, sometimes the not knowing ends up actually bringing sometimes more uncertainty and a little more discomfort than the just knowing. If they know that you're not completely sharing everything, especially now at the age of eight and nine,
00:43:21
Speaker
you know, then it feels as if there's something else they need to dig and the ideas that they might even make in their head may be even sometimes worse than the actual reality of it. You know what I mean? Like, we do things sometimes to protect our kids and sometimes it ends up being, yeah.
00:43:41
Speaker
not the right, but again, we're all just kind of going as we go and whatever we do is what we knew best at that particular time. So now that they know more information, and when they started school, school, did that make a...
00:43:54
Speaker
a big difference too, because I know things like the, you know, what is it, donuts with dad or these kind of things, Father's Day, that this, like, were those kind of events that happened then in elementary, do those spark those emotions in them again, like those questions? Yeah.
00:44:17
Speaker
And if I jumped ahead, by the way, if you were about to say something and I could, because I totally interrupted you. So if there was something you were going to say and I totally jumped, please feel free to take on wherever I, um, where you, whatever train of thought you were on. Oh no, it's fine. It's fine. Um, no, I, so yeah, so that does make it hard. Um, we do have donuts with dad and the way we've circumvented that is basically.
00:44:45
Speaker
We have, so my sister lives very close to us. She's the only family member that lives near me. Everybody else lives in Louisiana, but so her husband has been great with the boys and he's like a father figure to them. And he, he's been really good about doing those things with them. My, when we were still living in Lafayette, my brother,
00:45:14
Speaker
my cousin, my brother, my male cousin, brother, you know, lots of male figures in our family. They were very supportive and they were, they kind of banded together and took on that role for the boys. So, and anytime the boys got down about not having their dad, I would always remind them, you know, I say, but you know, here's the upside to it. You have a lot of men in your life.
00:45:44
Speaker
who can do those dad things with you. They're not going to be your, not going to replace your dad, but you know, you know, they can go fishing with you and do this and play ball and all these other things. And you know, it may not be the same as having a dad, but you still will get that experience somewhere because I have, I have two brothers and you know, my sister's husband has been great. And, um, we have, they have other,
00:46:12
Speaker
I always remind them that they have lots of male influence in their lives and that, you know, that will not be lost. So we just kind of, we make it happen and I'm now dating someone, I'm in a long-term relationship. So he kind of takes on that role with the donuts with dad and the, you know, the dad things. And so they're really getting those needs met in that way.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. That means you've done everything in your power to really do your best with what you have, like without that manual, as we say, and that shows because you've just given them these different tools for them to kind of feel secure, even though their dad is not alive and not by your side, you've given them that security.
00:47:07
Speaker
Did, when they started school, did the counselor, did you guys ever have any support for them at school? Did you ever have any counseling at school? I know, you know, we're a part of an organization that does Grief for Children, Journey of Hope, which is a grief support for, especially for children and families of children who have had somebody pass away. Did something like that, was something like that part of your life at all before you actually became a volunteer.
00:47:35
Speaker
Um, so for me personally, um, there, they didn't offer, uh, Lafayette's not a large city. It's about 160,000 people. Um, so it's not, and it's not near a major city. It's about two hours from any major city. So, um, we didn't have, they had grief support groups, but not, they were more catered toward, um, you know, children who've lost parents or, um,
00:48:05
Speaker
you know, parents who've lost children, but if there wasn't as far in to my knowledge, I couldn't find any spouse grief support groups. So for you, you didn't have, you didn't have any support for yourself aside from your family that you were able to go and another group of people that you could share these emotions with. Yeah. So in that way, I didn't have any grief support group, which would have helped tremendously.
00:48:35
Speaker
Um, I, you know, my family, I had all my family there and all my friends, they were super supportive and I wouldn't have gotten through that time if I didn't have them. So I was very, I'm very grateful to have had them, um, during that time. But the way that the way I operate basically is if I have a dilemma or a problem in life, I always go to books. So.
00:48:59
Speaker
I research it and then I read a book about it. And so that was my go-to then. I just, I just ordered a few books on being a widow and I made sure there weren't a lot at the time about, there weren't a lot geared toward young widows. There were mainly, I found a lot of them were, um, the targeted audience was there were older, you know,
00:49:27
Speaker
women who were older that had, they had grown kids and who lost a spouse, you know, an old age. Um, so I was having a lot of trouble finding those books, but I did find a few and they were very helpful. They were very, um, they offered a lot of information, not only that I could use at that time, but also information that I could use for the future, like dating and, you know, that kind of stuff. So, you know, that's, that's where I found my
00:49:57
Speaker
my answers, my comfort. Because books had already been your go-to tool before for other things. Maybe for mothering, you probably ended up also having a stack of books next year before they were born. Did you have a stack of books? Absolutely. You know it.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah. So that was your go-to way. And so you use that same tool that you had already used for other aspects of your life for your grieving. And that's a really good nugget here of information for the listeners, too, because that's one thing to find is what is usually your go-to resource in general? Like, is it Googling?
00:50:39
Speaker
reaching out to friends? Is it reading? And then maybe using that as your venue to be able to find the tools and that support that you need for your grief. Because everybody's different. For me, it's a lot about people and poems were one of the things I would do. Anytime I'd have a heartbreak, anytime somebody would break my heart when I was growing up, I'd write a poem.
00:51:06
Speaker
And so I actually wrote a few poems after my sister passed away just as a way of also grieving. I was 21 at that time, but that was the way that I kind of expressed it. So that is very unique to each individual based on what is your go-to way of coping with things. So that's useful. Thank you.
00:51:32
Speaker
Now, I want to ask you about other, you were talking about the support of your family and the support of your friends. And how about the component of faith and in yourself? Like what were some of the things that you held on to in your own beliefs or non-beliefs that helped you? Because I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to discover this with the listeners.
00:51:57
Speaker
that helped you in that process of accepting his death and what your life looked like at this moment. So, I would say I grew up in a very, I guess there are a lot of unconventional households, but mine was a very diverse, shall I say. My dad was, my dad was
00:52:27
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know if he's atheist or agnostic, one of the two, but over time he became Buddhist. And my mom has always been, well, for most of our childhood, she was a strict Catholic. So don't ask me how that worked out, but it did. And so we were raised, my dad was very adamant about raising us as free thinkers. So we didn't have to go to church, although my mom
00:52:56
Speaker
would take the opportunity when my dad was, um, every Friday night he would go play these like, wait, does he know this? No, he knows it. We can't release this podcast with your mom not knowing that you're dead. I'm not going to spill any kind of beans on this show. Um, but he, yeah, he's fully aware that, um, when he was playing his, he'd go play every Friday night, play games with his, uh, like these war games with his friends. My mom would.
00:53:26
Speaker
huddle us, all of us kids into a room and teach us the rosary. So we would recite the whole rosary, all the, you know, the whole thing. So I was, I was introduced to the Catholic faith. And although we didn't have to go to church,
00:53:44
Speaker
We didn't do a Holy Communion. We didn't do any of that. So we didn't have to do... I knew about the Catholic Church because I would go to church with my friends when I would spend the night at their houses on weekends. I would have to go if they went. So I was introduced to a lot of different religions that way. And so over the years, I kind of kept my mind open. I've always been one I don't like to be told.
00:54:12
Speaker
how to live my life or what to do or how to do it. And I just, there were a lot of things I didn't agree with in organized religion, with any organized religion. You know, I like certain things from certain religions. I like certain philosophies, certain, certain
00:54:30
Speaker
Practices idea ideologies. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but um, I don't want to be confined to one and so I just kind of went with that but I wasn't I would have to say before Arturo died I Wasn't that spirituality was not a huge thing on my list And We both of us we were not very super spiritual but After he died
00:55:00
Speaker
I, it's not like I didn't become more religious. I became more spiritual, which I think they're two different things. Um, I still do not, I'm not really, I don't belong. I don't associate with any one religion, but I had become more spiritual. And, um, by that, I mean, there were certain things that happened to me along the way from the time he passed away until now, many things that,
00:55:29
Speaker
I know they've kind of opened my eyes to the universe and just the higher power, whatever people want to call it. Whatever we want to call it, right. What do you like to call it? What do you call it? Universe, life, big source. What is your word for it? I use interchangeably higher powered God.
00:55:55
Speaker
universe. I just. Yeah. It's because it all means, it means the same. It's just, however you relate to it is like, yeah. So I just wanted to know like what words you choose to relate to that source, to that source, to that power. Right. Right. And I, I believe there is a higher power. I mean, I'm not atheist or anything. I believe there's a higher power and I believe, you know, the universe, there's a lot, um,
00:56:23
Speaker
you know, a lot going on in the universe. And I think that there's a whole other realm, um, beyond us. And actually it's funny because, um, my dad had been trying, trying to get me to read this book called journey of souls. Um, I think it's John Newman is the author, but it's called journey of souls. And he, but the last like six or seven years before our tour passed away, he's like, you gotta read this book. It's so great. It's, you know, and I'm like, I don't have time for that.
00:56:53
Speaker
You know, and right after Arturo passed away, I remember thinking I need closure. I need answers. I need to know what's going on with him right now. Like, where is he? What is he doing? Like, like, I remember thinking, and I just had this overwhelming, um, this overwhelming, um, desire to read this book at this time. And I was like, I don't know why, but it's just,
00:57:22
Speaker
calling me. I need to read it. Now's the time. Okay, I'm going to read it. I wrote down the name already because now I'm curious. I already wrote down the name of that book. He has another one after that. It's called First One's Journey of Souls and the other one is, for the life of me, I can't remember.
00:57:40
Speaker
There's a sequel to it. There's like another one after that. You still felt that yearning of closure because you had not grown up with any specific beliefs about what happened when we die. You hadn't really, I mean, yeah. So then that kind of yearning of having some kind of an idea of something, because again, we don't all have
00:57:59
Speaker
particularly all the answers to that. Exactly. We have glimpses of it, right? But at least to have some kind of understanding or some kind of belief to hold on to and to allow you for that closure was something you felt called and drawn and pulled to do. And so you pick up this book, you start reading that your dad's been wanting you to read for the past eight years and you pick it up after our Twitter passes. And what was in it that was like, aha, for you.
00:58:29
Speaker
It couldn't have been a more perfect moment to read that book. I remember in one of your other podcasts, I was listening to, they were saying that, here, I think it was the one with Giselle. And she said, I was not supposed to know that at that time. This is the time I was supposed to know it. The information comes to you very timely. It comes just at the right time.
00:58:58
Speaker
I remember thinking, you know, this is the exact, this is the right time for this. This is when I need it. And it spoke to me just so clear. And I remember thinking, so the book is about, he basically, um, is a hypnotherapist and he accidentally with all these patients, he's hypnotizing them for different reasons, but he accidentally stumbles upon past lives. And so.
00:59:27
Speaker
It's by accident. And then they all, and so he gets curious and he starts digging deeper. And all these people, it's just about specific cases. And all these people describe this place in this same exact way with the same verbiage and the same, in the same, you know, with the same detail and the same, it's just all very eerily similar. And I remember thinking to myself,
00:59:55
Speaker
These are people who don't have any connection to one another. And they're all saying the same thing when he does hypnotism to them. They're all describing this place in the same way. And like- And the place meaning like that moment of when they passed. They describe it the same way. They describe seeing the same kind of colors around people and the same, they describe the place that the way the process, like
01:00:20
Speaker
The way the, yeah, the light, the, all that kind of those aspects that the process, they explained the same way of what happens step by step. Like when you leave your body and then you go to this place and there's that the hierarchy system they have. And then, you know, it's like the, I say hierarchy system where like, when they're saying when souls, the souls try to get to like pure, this, you know, the highest stage of enlightenment, but they, you know, they,
01:00:49
Speaker
they go through, um, they have to go through many lives in order to get to this high place. So the, some souls are, you know, farther along the road and some art, but they describe it the same, like returning it to bodies and coming out of bodies, they describe it. And I'm like, so I'm thinking to myself, you know, it just, there,
01:01:12
Speaker
There's no way that everybody could be, you know, this conspiracy about everybody, you know, you know, I mean, it makes sense to you. It makes sense to you when you heard it. Yes. And it helped you in your process because yeah, everybody has to find what makes sense to them. And a lot of it based either, and this is something I've realized even with having done, you know, grief coaching and stuff too, is that
01:01:38
Speaker
A lot of our beliefs are partly of whatever we've been brought up to believe in terms of what happens after we die. But then also as adults or as we start getting older, do our current beliefs match those beliefs? And then that also helps us decide or basically determines how we grieve too.
01:02:02
Speaker
But I actually wanted to, if you don't mind, I want to quickly circle back about the spirituality thing. Please, I'm good at segueing. And so yeah, so I there's a few things I wanted to mention about that is, so I did mention I wasn't very spiritual before. And I had a lot of personal things happen to me situations that I feel this is not
01:02:33
Speaker
some kind of coincidence, this is something more than just, this is something very, it's not in this world, it's something beyond us. And the first time that happened, it was that time when we were waiting to hear
01:02:58
Speaker
Uh where my husband was so here was the waiting period Uh when his family was around and my sister-in-law took my youngest Um in the kitchen to eat And I was not aware of this at the time. She told me later um but She told me this later. She didn't want to freak me out. She said but um My oldest son about 20 months at the time she was feeding him in the high chair and He was faced towards
01:03:28
Speaker
the cabinets. I mean, there's no, my mother-in-law did not keep any pictures anywhere in the kitchen. I mean, there were no, there was no pictures anywhere. Um, and he looked up at by the ceiling high and he said he, this why he was eating just out of the blue and looked up and pointed with his huge smile on his face. He said, and this was before we knew that he was officially gone.
01:03:58
Speaker
And so that, you know, and she's not a super. I would say my sister-in-law and my former sister-in-law, she's not a. She wouldn't be one to be open to those kinds of experiences. So the fact that she saw that and told me, I mean, I was like, wow. Yeah, that's like goosebumps. Yeah, that's like a goosebumps moment totally on my end here.
01:04:26
Speaker
it freaked her out and that's when I knew, I started getting little things like that and I knew, I said, there's something more to this. Like there's not, you know, these were just the little bits and pieces of proof that, you know, the reassurance kind of that I needed or the spark to really make me a more spiritual person. And then a few days after he passed, we were all, you know,
01:04:56
Speaker
my brother and his wife at the time and, you know, everybody were headed to the chapel. Um, and we all split up in different cars than my then sister-in-law, my Arturo's brother's wife. Um, she and I were riding in the car together with my two kids and all this, you know, my kids were the oldest. He was, you know, kind of whining. He didn't want to be in the car seat. And the youngest, the baby was like crying his head off. And all of a sudden the baby stopped crying.
01:05:26
Speaker
just like that, the youngest start stop crying. And then my oldest started stopped whining and started laughing. Like somebody was tickling him or like somebody was like not tickling him, but like he was just like amused at something. And I looked back there and he's just kind of looking up like just laughing. And I turned around and I said, Liam, what are you laughing at? And he looks at me and he just keeps laughing.
01:05:55
Speaker
And then the baby, I could see, you know, you have those little mirrors that you attach where you can see the baby. And he was just like, his eyes were just wide and he was just looking. And I was like, and then at the same time, my sister-in-law, we both looked at each other and we were like, oh my gosh, I have goosebumps. We both had goosebumps. It was just.
01:06:15
Speaker
See, things like that happen. And the goosebumps are such, I've always told people, I know that right now I've got them. And I know in moments like that when I've felt like those presences or other friends that have come to my home and like have felt like, let's say my sister's presence or something, one of my friends was like, she started crying and like had like goosebumps all over. She's like, your sister's like here. She's with you all the time.
01:06:41
Speaker
She had never met her, right? She's like holding onto her picture and like said that and like goosebumps. So that's not rare. That happens to a lot of us, that physical reaction of those goosebumps, like confirmations. I'm like, wow, this is so beautiful. I would feel at night when I was doing my grieving and I would really sit quiet and still. And I remember thinking about him and
01:07:09
Speaker
that I would have these goosebumps feelings, but I wouldn't have goosebumps. I wasn't cold. I wasn't cold, but I had the sensation of goosebumps and I would look down and I'm like, I'm not cold and I don't have goosebumps, but it was like this feeling and I would get that feeling a lot later. It happened a lot at first and then it kind of waned a little bit, but I would get that feeling anytime I was thinking about him and I feel that that was,
01:07:36
Speaker
I don't know if I'm just making something up, but I feel that that was connected to, you know, I feel like his energy, his energy. Um, and you know, I thought, I thought those two instances that I had, I was like, okay, well, this is not, you know, I was thinking they stick around for a little while, the spirit stick around and then they go on and they don't come back. You know, they don't keep reaching out. They just move on and.
01:08:06
Speaker
You know, at first they try to get, they try to, I feel that they try to get in touch with their loved ones while they're, you know, it's kind of still, so say like fresh, you know, they're still, they've just passed and they're trying to kind of connect. Comfort and to bring some kind of comfort. And I was thinking, well, I'm not going to get any more of these things. Well, a year or two passes and then all of a sudden I get a friend of mine, um,
01:08:36
Speaker
A friend of mine says, Jenna, I want to, you know, tell you something. Um, I didn't want to tell you, I wanted to wait because I didn't know if you'd be receptive to hearing it. But he had a friend, this person I never, I had never known. And she said, um, she reached out to him and said, I feel like something bad has happened to someone, you know, just like recently. And he was out of town when this happened to Arturo.
01:09:04
Speaker
And so he's like, well, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. So when he got back, he heard about the news and he reached out to his friend again and he, he said, um, you know, tell me more about this. And she said, I feel that someone, you know, someone close to you, they have lost, they're very sad. And I keep seeing this girl crying and she's, she's, she's upset and she's crying. And he said, well, do you know what they look like?
01:09:34
Speaker
She's like, no, I just see this girl. Do you know anybody who's lost anyone? And he says, well, my friend Jenna just lost her husband. And so he goes through and he finds a picture of me on Facebook, I think. And he shows her and she's like, that's the girl. That's the one that's in, that's I'm thinking of. And I don't, this was, I think this was one of his ex girlfriends, like from law a long time ago. I don't even know who this person is. I have no, but
01:10:02
Speaker
Apparently from what he says, she's very connected to spirit and she says, she said, this spirit is very adamant and he's very, it's very pushy. It's like, it keeps pushing and pushing his trying to get the message across and it won't stop. And it keeps sending me this message. This woman is sad and you know, he, this spirit is trying to get through and it's very adamant and, um, you know, wants to, wants this
01:10:32
Speaker
person and know that they're okay. And then probably six months later, not even a year later, someone from the opposite, from Arturo's friends. So this is one of my friends, Arturo's friend, a friend of his from Dominican Republic that we were, we were close, all of us were friends. Well, he knew him from Dominican Republic. He calls me up and says, are you sitting down? And I said, yeah, why? And he said,
01:11:03
Speaker
A friend of mine was over, um, recently and she is, you know, she was doing a reading for one of our other friends, like trying to get in touch with, you know, this girl's grandpa or something like that. And she, this, she said this spirit kept trying to push through and she was like, okay, I'm not dealing with you right now. I'm trying to, you know, help this my friend and it kept pushing and pushing.
01:11:30
Speaker
Um, so she kind of pushed them out and ignored them. Um, and then she later took a nap or something. And during her nap, she had this very vivid dream and she woke up very freaked out and said, she felt everything this person felt in this dream. And it was very terrifying. And she asked Jonathan, Jonathan is our tourist friend. She said, do you know anyone? This person is connected to you. Do you know anyone that has like,
01:12:00
Speaker
passed away recently or, you know, and he was, you know, trying to think and he's like, well, I have a friend, you know, that passed away in the States, um, recently. And she said, well, this guy is very good looking and he has dark hair and he's tall. And she said, I'm seeing him and he's very adamant. He's trying to push through, you know, she said it freaked me out because in the dream he, I felt everything he felt and he was very terrifying.
01:12:30
Speaker
Um, and he said, yeah, my friend Arturo, like, you know, and he showed her a picture. She said, that's the person that, that was, that, that, that is the person I'm seeing. And this, mind you, this, these people are on complete opposite ends of spectrum. None of these people know each other. I don't know this girl. I didn't know the girl in either situation that has the, these people are apparently very connected to spirits.
01:12:58
Speaker
Did that bring you comfort when you heard that? What did it make you feel? What did it make you feel hearing these different people have these connections that Arturo had basically connected with them to let you know that he wanted you to be okay? How did that make you feel? It was very, very comforting.
01:13:27
Speaker
I say that because, and I knew, I knew these people weren't making this up because they were... There's no reason to, first of all. There's no reason to make that up. No, there's no reason. And they were completely unrelated. These people did not know each other and they said the same, they described the soul in the same way.
01:13:43
Speaker
That's why he was on earth. I was just going to ask you, was he really driven? Was he the type of person that we would call, was he turco like we say in Spanish? Was he like strong will, like I'm going to do my way and I'm going to get things done. Is that his personality? He was the kind of person, so I describe people as front door people, side window people, back door people.
01:14:07
Speaker
Okay. I want to hear this. I would never heard of the front door, side door and back door. Okay. I want to hear what kind of door am I? Some people are, you can go to the front door and they're just like welcoming. Yeah. Hey, you know, you, you present an idea there. Oh yeah, sure. You know, very easy. Like front door is very easy access. Well, you, some people, you know, when you want to get them on board with an idea or you want to try to
01:14:33
Speaker
talk to them about something. You can't go into the front door. You can't go in head on. Right on. Right on. You got to kind of make it in. You have to go in the side window or a back door. So he was a back door side window kind of person. So if I, he was not going to do something unless he wanted to do it. And you weren't going to make him. You weren't going to make him. You had to make him think it was his idea. So yeah, the back door side window. So he's a back door side window kind of person. And you know,
01:15:03
Speaker
He was a very strong willed. He was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful person. He was very strong willed. That was his personality, but that's something that I admired about him. He was stubborn sometimes. It drove me crazy, but he knew what he wanted. He was strong willed. And when they talked about him as a spirit, that was
01:15:34
Speaker
perfectly in line with how he was here. And it was just like, they both said this spirit was very adamant and would just not stop and just wanted to get there. They wanted to get it like they wanted, he wanted to be her. And they both, I talked to the second person, um, John from Dominican Republic. Um, she, I actually talked to her. I said, I have to talk to this person. I have to. Um, and she said,
01:16:01
Speaker
You know, I, it was scary. What he had me feel was very scary. Uh, what he went through and that kind of worried me a little bit, but, um, she said, he's at a good place. He wants you to know that he's okay. And he wants you to be happy. He wants you to live your life and he wants you to move forward. He doesn't want you to be sad. And so I was, that gave me peace. It gave me comfort and a sense of closure. And I was.
01:16:29
Speaker
very happy about that and I thought you know this was probably gosh six seven years ago that well six about six years ago that this happened and I hadn't nothing crazy had happened since then um and then at a wedding my um Arturo's brother got remarried and we went to Florida for the wedding and this is the last the most recent um instance that I experienced but his brother got remarried and um
01:17:00
Speaker
the kids and I went. And during the reception, the first dance song, they started playing the song and I was like, oh, this is very familiar. And I realized about 20 seconds in the song that it was the exact same song, it was the same song as the first dance song. It was the same song as the one that Artur and I danced to as our first dance at our wedding.
01:17:30
Speaker
It was a different version. Um, and I wasn't prepared. That was another moment. I was kind of circling back to how I said there was emotion moments I'm not prepared for that. I think I've got it all together and I'm like, here we are almost eight years in. I don't have a lot of those breakdown moments and I literally just, I started to lose it.
01:17:53
Speaker
And I didn't want to lose it in front of all these people. Like, they're going to be like, okay, why is this girl crying, freaking out? He's overreacting to this. It's a wedding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a wedding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know what's going on in your head. They don't know that. Yeah, but it wasn't outwardly, it wasn't a very appropriate response to this song. So I was trying to like keep it together and I was totally losing it inside.
01:18:18
Speaker
And I just remember my former father-in-law, he came up behind. I didn't know who it was at the time. I just felt somebody bear hug me from behind. And I looked down and I realized, oh, this is my former father-in-law. And I turned around. He remembered that this was our song. And I think he and my mother-in-law, they were the only ones that remembered. I turned around and just buried my head in his chest and just lost it. I mean, I just sobbed.
01:18:46
Speaker
And I was, I caught me by surprise because I was like, after all these years, you know, it, you still can reopen the wound. And it's, I was surprised at how much it really dug that deep and I just lost it. And then after I kind of regained my composure and after I, you know, my brother-in-law came over to me and he said, and I said, I said, who chose that song?
01:19:15
Speaker
He said, well, I did. And I said, what made you choose that song? And he's like, I don't know. I just liked it, I guess. He said, there were a bunch of other songs we were choosing from and we were going to choose this other song. But the last minute we changed it to this one. And I said, do you realize that this was Arturo Dona's first song?
01:19:42
Speaker
our first dance song at our wedding and he's like, Oh my gosh, are you serious? He's like, I had no, and I know for a fact, he was not lying because he forget, they don't remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not remember that I guarantee you. And he chose it. He chose that song. And that I've been knowing this guy for most of my life for a good portion of my life. And I know that's not something he would normally choose. I
01:20:09
Speaker
I was like floored when he said he chose it. I thought his now wife chose it. And I remember thinking, and he thought I was upset. And I said, I'm not upset. I was crying. I said, but I am so happy. This makes me so happy. I was crying because it affected me in that way. But I said, this brings me such joy because I know that Arturo was behind this.
01:20:36
Speaker
And even now, even now, almost eight years, this is like, to me, this is a sign that he is still, he still is in our lives and he's still doing these little things to let us know that he's here. And in his speech that night at the reception, his brother Alfonso said, but I know my brother is here and he's still with us. And I remember thinking, yes, he is because this, that to me was a telltale sign that he was still there.
01:21:07
Speaker
And it just, it was bittersweet. It was joyous. So yeah. Oh, I love that because you know, the bittersweet and the joy that just comes in those moments. And even though you were, you know, you felt that emotion and that sadness, but at the same time, that joy and confirmation and that support also from your in-laws that your, you know, former in-laws that they
01:21:31
Speaker
realized that that was also your song. I'm sure it also brought up a lot of memories for them. So it's kind of like for all of you, it was for all of you to know that he was there. For you, for his brother to know that he was there at his wedding, for his parents to know that he was there. It was just a beautiful, I'm all about signs and I totally take them. I don't think they're coincidences.
01:21:54
Speaker
So I would yeah, I was totally feeling it as you were saying that's so beautiful.
Transition to Grief Facilitation
01:21:59
Speaker
Thank you Jenna for sharing that and Jenna I want to want you to finish off by sharing a little bit more about now that you do grief facilitating
01:22:09
Speaker
It's been about a year that you've been doing that. How has that journey of you having been through grief and now giving that space for others to be able to grieve and facilitate their grieving process, how has that helped you in your journey? I experienced about a month or so after I lost my husband,
01:22:38
Speaker
one of a person that I went to school with, high school with, um, she lost her brother and he was around my age. And I remember saying, I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, she's married and his wife is around the same age as I am. And I forced myself to go to that funeral. This was a month after my husband died and I was in no place to go to another funeral, but I forced myself to go because
01:23:07
Speaker
I was like, this is, I mean, the support is, for me to be supportive in this moment, it means, even though she may not even know I'm there, I didn't know his wife personally, but I said, I wanna support in any way I can. And it just, and after that, another person I went to high school with, she was married to Will Smith, the football player that got killed. I only know the Will Smith,
01:23:35
Speaker
No, he was an actor singer he played for the Saints and I'm like I'm a sports like non I have no idea about sports like yeah, he was a big he was a he was a he was a Yeah Well, I went to school with his wife for a while and I remember reaching out to her after because I was like I know I know what this place feels like and I remember reaching out I didn't hear anything back but
01:24:05
Speaker
At that moment, I remember thinking, wow, this is like more common than I thought it was. And I really want to do something to help people. And this was while I was still living in Lafayette. So I felt like there was not much I could do in that sense. When I moved to Dallas, I felt called to do something more. I was like, I, you know, I want, because I didn't have the resources in Lafayette and I know not everyone
01:24:33
Speaker
has the opportunity to live in a big city where you have so many resources for, you know, grief, um, or grief support. And, you know, I mean, some people live in very rural areas and they just don't have that. They have, maybe they only have their churches, maybe other churches, maybe our books or their family. And I said, I know that no one can relate to your situation unless they're in your shoes. And that is just.
01:25:03
Speaker
I will say that about any situation, whether it's losing a spouse, losing a child, losing a parent or a relative. To me, the way that I think about it, it's all devastating and it's all grief, but it's different forms of it. I can't even fathom what my in-laws went through.
01:25:30
Speaker
or what my brother-in-law and sister-in-law went through losing a sibling. I can't understand that pain. I only understand what it's like to lose a spouse. And it's not to say that my pain is any worse or theirs is any worse than mine. It's just a different kind of pain. And people can say they know or they can try to relate as much as possible or tell you what you should and shouldn't do
01:26:00
Speaker
But they just don't know. And that's why I said I'm going to help. I'm going to use my situation. I'm going to take my lemons and make lemonade, basically. So I was like, I'm going to look for
01:26:20
Speaker
place where I can help other people who've lost their spouses. And that's, I found Journey of Hope and essentially I found you. This is just the beginning. And yeah, and this is just the beginning because even just in hearing your story and when you were talking about searching for books that had to do with young widows and that it was hard to find that right there, I had this little light bulb thing came into my head and I,
01:26:48
Speaker
I tend to feel that I have some kind of intuitive aspect of myself. And I wanted to interrupt you and say, oop, there's a calling. I think you're going to write a book. So I'm throwing that out there because I know you want to keep on helping. And we talked before this podcast, we spoke over the phone and you were talking about
01:27:12
Speaker
blogging or things like that, other ways of being able to create those resources for others. And I know that your heart is huge because I know that it is because I met you and we've bonded in such a short period of time that we got to know each other and we've been able to have these deep conversations and you have a huge heart of service. And I know that you'll be able to help in that platform.
01:27:37
Speaker
many, many other ways. And I know you've already even helped others as they're listening to even just this podcast. So I appreciate you so much for taking that time to open up your story, your book right now and share your journey thus far and these eight years of being a widow and sharing that with the listeners and with myself. So thank you so much, Jenna.
01:28:00
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you, Kendra. And you're just super sweet. And, um, you know, I'm glad we, I'm glad we met and I, I, you know, I know that that's not by chance. I'm one of those people who thinks, you know, people are brought together for reasons, things happen for reasons. So I'm really grateful for
Challenges in New Relationships After Loss
01:28:16
Speaker
that. Um, I just, I don't know if we have, uh, that much more time, but I did want to kind of mention something about,
01:28:24
Speaker
uh the journey forward dating just a quick quick nugget of information um something i did not expect um that i actually um read about in a book one of the books that um was super helpful to me um i think it was widows were stilettos that was a great great book but um they kind of bring you through the whole journey and then they tell you what to expect in the dating world and i remember reading something which i i think a lot of people
01:28:51
Speaker
in my situation will find interesting and may have either already experienced or will experience with dating as you move forward. I read, the book basically said that don't be surprised if the people you date in the future, if some problems arise with them having to accept
01:29:20
Speaker
your deceased spouse. And I found that very interesting. The reasoning behind all of that is a lot of times future people you date, it's easy for people you date to accept
01:29:47
Speaker
you know, I, I divorced this person or, you know, it's easier, I guess, to accept baggage. Um, I say baggage. Yeah. And in relationships that you don't want to go back to kind of thing that ended not in a good place. Right. Yeah. A divorce most usually is, um, you know, two people decide it's not going to work out. They mutually decide they don't want to be together. So it's a, it's a decision. It's a choice that, yes, I mean, I don't want to be with this person anymore.
01:30:15
Speaker
I'm freeing myself of them. And so that is confirmation. I guess that comforts the future person that you're going to date. Okay. Well, that's done and over with. So when someone is taken away from you, as in the circumstance of death, then you didn't voluntarily leave that person. They were taken from you. And so the concept behind this is that
01:30:44
Speaker
that this future person you will date may have an issue with possible feelings of
01:30:59
Speaker
Longing feelings. Yeah. Or like even competing with this other person that trying to live up to the standards of this person that's no longer alive yet holds a really big space in your heart. And especially if you have children as a widow, like a widow and a mom, like that's like even bigger. They believe that that door has not closed and that, you know, I'm competing with this person who's not here, but I feel like I'm competing with them because
01:31:27
Speaker
Um, you may still cry about them or you may still long for them and it's going to be awkward for this other person possibly to have to deal with that because they want to know that they're the only person. And to be honest, in my personal experience, I remember reading this and thinking, Oh, that's kind of, I mean, I understand where they're coming from, but that's not going to happen. You know, like people are going to understand. Nope. In more relation, I had about three relationships after that and almost everyone.
01:31:58
Speaker
And everyone, that was a huge factor. They could not, that was a huge dividing line that they just, they could not accept that. And they didn't want to hear about this part. They wanted to hear me talk about them. They didn't want to see me sad. It was, it was actually what I read was coming to life and it was eye-opening for me. So I just wanted to put that out there for other young widows that may or may not have
01:32:26
Speaker
experiences or may be confused as to why, you know, why this is happening. It's a real thing and it's happened to me already. Um, so make sure you find that person that is willing to accept that part of your life. Cause it's always going to be a part of your life. It's not like you got rid of that chapter and you know, you erased it. No, it's always going to be a part of your life. And especially if you have kids with this person, um, they, this new person is going to have to accept that. And so I found that just
01:32:56
Speaker
just so bizarre. It was so eye-opening to me. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you. That is very helpful information because it's something, of course, like myself, I mean, I'm not a widow. I wouldn't even think of that aspect because the people that have passed in my life are non-replaceable to some, not that anybody is replaceable, but relationships, right? So if you break up with somebody or if you're married and then you remarry, then you have a
01:33:23
Speaker
ex-wife you have a new wife right or or the ex-parents in law and now you're new parents in law or you know what I mean like all these different kind of but a sister that you know passes or a mom that passes like those kind of those relationships don't change.
Resources and Encouragement for Listeners
01:33:42
Speaker
So, it's really different in this case, and thank you for bringing that to light. And I think that if anybody else wants to listen more about that aspect, listening and looking for that Ted Talk from Nora McInearney, that we cannot pronounce her last name correctly. I'm sorry, Nora, if you end up listening to this podcast sometime down the line, the one she talks about moving
01:34:07
Speaker
Oh gosh, I was moving forward with grief. And she talks about that aspect of the relationship and the new relationship after you become a widow. So thank you again for bringing that to light, Jenna. Thank you. Thanks again, dear. And everybody be on the lookout.
01:34:26
Speaker
Jenna LeBron, because I'm sure eventually you'll have to look for a book somewhere in an audible or, you know, on Amazon and order it and or a blog somewhere because I know there's a lot more to come from your end to help others. So thank you, my friend.
01:34:42
Speaker
Yes, it's coming. Trust me. I know it is. I know that. I know that. So yeah, be on the lookout. Thanks again, dear. And thanks for the kiddos for also allowing all this quiet time for mommy to have this conversation. So thank you. They're under strict orders. Thanks again. Thanks.
01:35:08
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do so.
01:35:37
Speaker
Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me. And thanks once again for tuning into Grief Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.