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Settling the STEM vs. STEAM debate with Adrienne Turner
132 Plays3 years ago
All aboard at Sad Girl Central Station because the STEAM train has arrived! 🚂 This week we are joined by APT sister and photographer, Adrienne Turner, who is also a curriculum and instruction specialist for PreK-12th grade! Adrienne talks about the history of STEM and foundational learning, “pullout” and gifted programs, and elective classes. Most importantly we learn why STEAM allows for true interdisciplinary learning!
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Transcript
Episode Introduction and TikTok Controversy
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, hello, and welcome to Art Pop Talk. I'm Bianca. And I'm Gianna. Bianca, are we the drama? I don't think we're the drama. Maybe we are. Today we're talking about a little bit of drama we stirred up on TikTok.
00:00:21
Speaker
I didn't think of all the things people were going to get all up in a tizzy about this one. But alas, Gianna, anything is possible on the internet. So we are using today's art pop talk to work through a clearly very heated topic, the STEM versus STEAM debate.
00:00:44
Speaker
What is STEM and should it really include that A for literally all of the arts?
Guest Spotlight: Adrienne Turner on STEM vs STEAM
00:00:52
Speaker
And to help us talk it all out, we've got an expert in curriculum joining us today. We are so excited for you all to meet the one and the only, the OG Adrienne Turner, a photographer and educator and the third Fink sister. Well, we have a lot to get into today, so let's get started.
00:01:15
Speaker
Hey, hey. I hope you all know when Bianca and I record and we take a little pause to allow ourselves to insert our intro music, we always just do a little bop in our chairs and it makes me really happy. Yeah, we just added a few little dance moves in there, even though you can't always see it.
00:01:37
Speaker
We're, we're grooving to the APT theme music over here. No, it's literally just like a physical reminder to be like, add music, head bob. Yeah. Pause for effect. Dance to APT music.
00:01:51
Speaker
So how are you doing, Gianna? How's the new apartment treating you? It's good. I'm hoping, I'm hoping today my audio, it's not going to be too echoey. I am in right now an empty room, which is soon to be Thieben and I's workspace area.
00:02:11
Speaker
but the apartment's hanging, everything's looking cute. I have some purchases in the works for the apartment that I am very excited about. I feel like getting a little crafty these days. So I bought some contact paper, you know, I've bought some like organizational shelving type things. And today I'm gonna go pick up a old secretary's desk
00:02:41
Speaker
cute. But I don't know, maybe I'm just way too excited about this idea. But I feel like it's really fucking clever. And I don't have any friends. So I need to tell everybody about it here. Because like, I don't have no one else to talk to you about it. So thieving and I are in this apartment. So I'm trying to
00:03:03
Speaker
have things be functional as well as fun. So one of the things is that our kitchen cabinetry shelving situation is like less than ideal.
Creative Home Ideas and Art in Everyday Life
00:03:15
Speaker
So for all the wine glasses and stemware and all that jazz, it's really
00:03:21
Speaker
there's like just no space for it right now. And Theban really likes to play games and we have also like millions of books. So between like the Stumware, the alcohol, the books, the games.
00:03:37
Speaker
We have so many books. We already have them all, all of our books in our entertainment center, but then I brought all of mine and so we're also going to have to get a bookcase. We have a lot of books where we're a book kind of fam over here. What I'm going to do with the secretary's desk, it's really cute because you know how some of them have the pull down top so you can pull it down or it's more like a hutch kind of
00:04:06
Speaker
look and the desk part folds just up and down kind of like a bar would. So I found a secretary's desk that actually didn't have a lot of the internal little shelving for like stationery and stuff because I was just going to cut all that out. But I found one that was already completely empty and then it just has drawers on the bottom. So I'm going to turn this little secretary's desk into a bar.
00:04:32
Speaker
Oh, cute. Yeah, I'm like, I think I'm really fucking clever, to be honest, like, I love it. And then I can put all of our like books, like extra books and like games, just like in this little like hutch thing. And the top of it, those when I found to the top of it is also
00:04:51
Speaker
flat like a lot of them are they lay flush up against the wall so like the top is at a perfect like triangle point but this one the top is flat so I can still put stuff on top of it like keys and shit you know
00:05:02
Speaker
Oh, cool. Yeah, I feel like I feel very clever about it. But I'm also a loser. And I don't have anybody else to tell about it. So that is my story. That is so cool. About the secretary's desk. You know what, I feel like ergonomics is a very cool thing that like, I'm interested in in terms of, you know, the science of it all and how that that could impact design. Do do arts and science go go together, Bianca?
00:05:30
Speaker
Well, John, it's funny that you said, you know, form and function and, you know, trying to be functional, but also like trying to be cute. I mean, what a concept. I mean, I that's why our world separates the categories because they obviously don't go together. Like I'm just talking bollocks over here. Two very different things. Two very different things. Well,
00:05:58
Speaker
In lieu of art news, you know, I think, I think we're the art news. I think that I want to come up with a different segment instead of when we don't have art news.
The Arts' Role in Society and Education
00:06:07
Speaker
I think it needs to be like, like APT drama corner or something. I think as we should go ahead and get into it, it works very well for today's topic. So Gianna, are we ready to art pop talk?
00:06:29
Speaker
Well, as you've said, Gianna, the tea is tart. And let me tell you, let me tell you why. So I posted a TikTok a week or two ago now. And the audio is from this like podcaster guy that really, I actually have like no idea who he is. I'll have to look into it. But all of the like socialist people on our TikTok were like, oh, I love that guy or whatever. But
00:06:59
Speaker
The audio was... Is that what they teach you in college nowadays? I thought all they taught you was homosexual Marxism. Okay, so that was the audio. And then the caption on the TikTok was POV, you tell someone in quote unquote STEM, that people in the arts work just as hard and deserve to be paid. And wowie, was that a
00:07:27
Speaker
a concept people were not a fan of, which to my surprise, I don't know, they really had strong opinions about this. And you know, we have strong opinions too. But this was really the first time that I've seen this kind of
00:07:44
Speaker
I guess some of it got hostile in a way, but this type of really argumentative and a really strong conviction, this was really the first TikTok we posted where I've seen that type of dialogue in our comments. So on our TikTok, Gianna and I talk a lot about
00:08:04
Speaker
kind of things that we experience working in the arts as people were trying to start out our career, as we've talked a lot about on the show as well. There are so many things that we love about art and art history and all of the arts in general, but we obviously have frustrations with it. And we've talked to you guys about that quite a bit. We could go on and on about problems of the art world, particularly
00:08:34
Speaker
In this instance here, I was talking about pay and you guys know you can definitely, and if you haven't yet, I would obviously encourage our conversation with Onyx Montes on salary transparency. But there seems to be a very large disconnect here with how people in the arts are actually working and making a living.
00:09:01
Speaker
You guys know that Gianna and I both have degrees. I have a master's degree. Many people go on to get their PhD in all different kinds of arts. And it is something that is deserving of a living wage. And I'm not saying that automatically just because you have your PhD, you should be getting, you know, hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars. That is in no way what I'm saying. But so much of the time,
00:09:29
Speaker
the arts and people who work in creative spaces are undervalued and not paid what they deserve. We've talked about this in my case.
00:09:40
Speaker
It's tough. I'm struggling to pay off my student loans. And I was under the impression that getting a master's degree would get me in the door of a career that I could really build. And that was Fiona's cackling. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But that's exactly what I'm talking about here.
00:10:08
Speaker
I'm not saying that I automatically deserve like, you know, $100,000 or whatever in my first job. That is in no way what I'm saying, even though some engineers get that right for that, but that's not the point here. I'm saying that any person, any human being working in a position
00:10:34
Speaker
deserves to get a living wage. And people in the comments did not like that. Not agree. And it was really interesting to see this kind of visceral reaction. And it was against my artwork. I don't make artwork. And people were coming off like, well, your art must not be very good. And it was like, not an artist, but. I was like, wait, what?
00:11:02
Speaker
I was like, you're like, you're, you're right. My, my art is not good. My non-existent art. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about here? Nothing about this. Nothing about my, my caption in the TikTok suggested that I was an artist at all. My caption to the whole video was
00:11:23
Speaker
let's use steam because art is also a part of our everyday lives and isn't something to be ignored. So that's a whole separate issue that we'll get into obviously. But people were coming after me like, if your art isn't good, it doesn't have value. And that's why people won't buy it. And that's why you won't make a living. I was like, how do I, how do I even begin to explain to these people
00:11:48
Speaker
that the arts are so much more than painting. And you and I joke a lot about that. We've talked about that in our Bumble episode, in our dating episode, because there's this automatic association that like paint is art and that's all it is. And that's clearly the perspective that people were coming from. This one person even was
00:12:12
Speaker
so strong to tell me that my TikTok video was clearly about that. He was like, well, if this isn't what you were saying, then you weren't making a very good video. I was like, what is TikTok, if not for broad generalizations about things, which in itself, what is Steam and STEM, if not clearly a broad generalization, because we are missing the point here, folks, like we are not on the same level.
00:12:40
Speaker
And so often, and we'll talk about that assumption, the assumption when you say the word art and anything is that you were talking about someone who is a visual artist, right? We are not getting the assumption that arts is a category in which
00:13:00
Speaker
countless workers and jobs circulate that market in that industry. Like we could wrap in our performing artists, we could wrap in our audible artists, our spoken word, our written authors, like there is so much to being a creative person. So the assumption of it all is really what got
00:13:29
Speaker
like got me going as I was watching it all. Oh my gosh, truly. And even on top of that, as we'll get into, I mean, we're not just talking about people who create right graphic designers, artists, dancers, we're not talking about the people who make things and do things, we are talking about interior decorators, interior designers, we're talking about
00:13:54
Speaker
engineers who work at art museums. We're talking about technicians who work at art museums. We're talking about, as we'll get into with Adrienne, education and teaching. We're talking about our entire world that is based in
00:14:15
Speaker
in experience. And it's just, we're talking about journalism, we're talking about television and film and everything that you purchase, fashion, we're talking and you know what this reminded me of exactly to a T was Miranda Priestley telling Andy Sachs
00:14:38
Speaker
that her sweater just came from a pile of stuff. And she's talking about it's not just blue, it's cerulean. And you think that these belt buckles are the same, but they're not. Yeah, and that you're better and you're not a part of these things that you're critiquing and that things that you think don't matter. Right. Just because
00:14:59
Speaker
you think that the arts is just a pile of stuff and, you know, it's actually not necessary. It's filled with every single decision that you make across your lifetime. What color car do you buy? The design of an automobile that you might like. The lighting in a restaurant. Food.
00:15:23
Speaker
anything that we consume in our bodies, packaging a wine label, how many of you just go into a store and buy a beer because the label is cool? I mean, it's just everything about our lives is so experiential. And in so many of the comments, we're honing in on this one idea that I am not personally making a living because my artwork is bad.
00:15:50
Speaker
And my art is not valuable. And clearly I'm not good at it. And I shouldn't be doing it. And I should be focusing on something else because nobody will want to put value towards something that they don't like. When in reality, that is exactly what all of these people are doing on an everyday basis. Well, yeah. And then I just felt like because collectively people so miss the mark that even the people who were more agreeable
00:16:19
Speaker
to the Steam conversation were more caught up in still the comments that were completely missing the mark. We were still wrapped up in the visual art of it all. Right. So there were two kind of issues happening here. And that's a great point, Gianna. So let's get into the second one. The first one is that art is only one thing. And how can we add value to that? Because
00:16:46
Speaker
You suck, whatever. And then the second part of that was going into my caption for the video about using Steam instead of STEM, because clearly we're having a problem where the arts are only viewed as one thing, right? And a lot of people were actually very interesting and brought up really interesting points that
00:17:08
Speaker
They appreciate the arts and we should not be undervalued. The arts are obviously clearly so important to our everyday lives, but they are not necessarily sure that they belong in the word STEAM or need to be associated with the word or term STEM, which I thought was interesting. I do see that point because STEM, as we'll get into science, technology, engineering, and math,
00:17:35
Speaker
Where do the arts fit into that? Clearly, a lot of us understand that they are part of that. They flow back and forth. Science is a part of art and art is a part of the sciences, right? But why do we get this breakdown of STEM and why is there this importance and focus on STEM? But adding that addition of the arts gets tricky. And as we'll get into with Adrienne,
00:18:01
Speaker
why is it that there's an A for all of the arts, but STEM and the sciences get this kind of breakdown?
STEAM Education: History and Benefits
00:18:09
Speaker
So to a lot of people's like really appreciative credit, I definitely see that point about like, well, maybe we need another term or like, they're just not sure that that STEAM is appropriate or applicable in a lot of situations because this term applies to just the sciences. But here we are over in the arts trying to
00:18:30
Speaker
assert ourselves into those fields and let people know that we are a part of everyday life just as much as the sciences are. And I also want to let people know that Gianna and I believe in science. Like we love science, we appreciate and value all of the categories under STEAM at 1000%. And we also, it was so funny because
00:18:58
Speaker
the people in the comments who were on the kind of steam side, but were being very positive and engaging. And we're just saying that they love art and they are part of both worlds very much. They were women commenting and being like, on behalf of the STEM community, I am so sorry for what's happening right now. We love women in STEM. You know what I mean? We in no way are trying to delineate the amazing
00:19:24
Speaker
power of science and right now I think especially that's like I just want to note that that like We're not trying to you know, we're not trying to take away anyone else's, you know Importance over here. We're just trying to show you another side to that right or how or how we can be involved and we shouldn't be undervalued because you don't think we're important I
00:19:49
Speaker
pinned a line of comments. And we all know this, Gianna and I have talked about it before. Gianna and I don't participate in internet culture very much. We're on it for art pop talk, but we do not involve ourselves in comment sections. Like we just don't believe in being hateful on the internet. And it's hard, you know,
00:20:10
Speaker
You all know this, but it's hard to engage in a productive conversation when you have a limit of 140 characters or something like that in a comment. You just can't have a productive conversation. But in lieu of that, I kind of pinned to the top of our comment section so you guys can go look at it. This is what I posted a thread of comments to try to just explain myself a little bit more.
00:20:37
Speaker
I feel like the largest misconception happening in the comments right now is that I am strictly referencing a practicing artist, which I am not. I don't make or sell any art. I'm talking about liberal arts, humanities, and creatives at large. And I see many of the points about STEM versus STEAM. Why do all of the sciences get a quote unquote STEM and all of the arts just get that one letter A?
00:21:02
Speaker
There in itself has been leading to the problem here that art is just one thing. I also want to say, let's please stop playing the game of what work is harder. I reference this in the video to only mean that we all work hard. Many of us do not and will not have the experience of the other side. So how will any of us know or have the right to even qualify what work is harder?
00:21:28
Speaker
We're all working hard at what we do. We all studied and we all trained for it. We all matter to our society and we deserve living wages for that work. Please be kind to one another. Nothing productive ever happened in a hateful comment section. Our pop talk is about kindness and discussion.
00:21:45
Speaker
Part of that comment thread was also there was this issue of like, well, I'm a neurosurgeon and I work way harder than an artist and I deserve more pay. And that's just not, we can't- Stop tenning one against the other. That's not what this conversation is about. Right. It's completely unproductive and I will never know the experience of being a neurosurgeon. I'm sure you work very hard, but that doesn't negate the fact that creatives
00:22:12
Speaker
also work hard. And just because you think you work harder doesn't mean that we don't deserve a living wage. But, you know, that's the point of a conversation. So all of these really big questions, clearly something worth talking about. And in order to do that, you know, Gianna and I thought we'd bring on a perfect person for the job. So
00:22:39
Speaker
We are going to bring on that STEAM and STEM expert. She is an actual educator who works in curriculum. Adrienne has a bachelor's degree in elementary education and a master's degree in reading education. She has been a fourth grade teacher, a reading specialist, and is currently a curriculum and instruction specialist for pre-K through 12th grade in a public school district. She is also a professional photographer when she's not working in schools.
00:23:07
Speaker
All right, we are going to take a little break. And when we come back, we'll be joined by Adrienne Turner.
00:23:43
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody. Adrian, we are so excited to finally have you here on the show. We've had your lovely husband on to talk with us about all things
00:23:55
Speaker
music. And you know, sometimes we've even heard Jameson screaming in the background, which has been fabulous. But now you are finally here. So can you introduce yourself to the art pop tarts as the Cinderella Danielle de Barbarac of this trio that we have here? Tell them a little bit about who you are, what you do, and what makes you the perfect person to talk about Steam and STEM with us.
00:24:22
Speaker
Hey guys, I am so excited to be here today. I love listening to you guys. I feel kind of special getting to be here with and talking with you. Oh my god, but you have to say that because you're a sister. But thank you so much. But I love it. And people are like, what are you listening to? And I'm like, I'll talk. And I try to recommend you guys with a little disclaimer. They want to hear about some leftist art situation.
00:24:51
Speaker
That is what I say. Because I live in Oklahoma, I have to just, I leave a little disclaimer, but most people are like, yeah, that sounds great. Do you want some truly biased art information? Here you go.
00:25:06
Speaker
Okay, so I'm Adrienne. Currently, I am a curriculum and instruction specialist for a school district in Oklahoma. So basically what that means is I help all of our teachers pre-K through 12 with anything that has to do with what they teach or how they teach it.
00:25:26
Speaker
So in bigger districts, they have someone for grade levels and content. So they'll have an elementary person just for language arts, a secondary person just for language arts. But me and one other person do pre-K through 12 all subjects. And so I feel like I'm the perfect person to talk to you today because I get to see how, because I work with all subjects, I get to see how they overlap and affect each other and then also vertically pre-K through 12
00:25:55
Speaker
I get to see the big picture, which is awesome. We started a STEM program in our elementary schools a few years ago, and we've been working since then to vertically align the curriculum so that students have a clear path from kindergarten through 12th for any STEM-related fields that they want to explore post-high school.
00:26:15
Speaker
Wonderful. Adrienne, we are so freaking happy to have you here. And I feel as though I just need to say as a little disclaimer before we get into things.
00:26:26
Speaker
Adrienne was one of our educators. I feel like predominantly one of my educators. She's been a huge mentor in my life. So you are, yeah, you're definitely like, it is all I'm gonna say. So we are excited. Adrienne, this is why you are the Cinderella de Barbarac and I'm just a piece of trash jackling.
00:26:52
Speaker
Gianna, I love you and you're beautiful. Oh my God, I'm going to cry. Don't, don't. I actually think this is interesting, Gianna, that you bring that up because Adriana was my basically like dance and color guard and performing arts instructor, but she was also like for you a tutor in many ways. And that's just really interesting that no, she has no idea. Like, yeah. Yeah. Bianca, I helped you with your math too.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, I had actually a lot of people help me with my math. Diana, we were working on reading. It was awesome. Yeah. OK. Well, let's get into it. Don't cry. It's going to be OK. OK. So can you talk with us about any origins of STEM, and particularly how and when this concept of grouping these sciences started to impact curriculum and our educational system?
00:27:49
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm just, just so we have a common language, STEM is an acronym for science, technology, engineering, engineering, and math. And STEAM is an acronym and it just adds art in there, science, technology, engineering, art, and math.
00:28:05
Speaker
So we're going to go all the way back to the launch of the Russian space satellite Sputnik in 1957. I just watched that episode of Friends. Okay. Sputnik. Yes.
00:28:20
Speaker
So after Russia launched that space satellite, there was a huge emphasis placed on math and science in American schools so that we could be better global competitors. So then after that, we have the creation of NASA and big pushes from President Kennedy for more innovation. And we also put a man on the moon.
00:28:41
Speaker
Then in the 1970s and 80s, we saw national science programs being established, and we also saw the first cell phone, the first space shuttle launch, and the first personal computer. So starting in 1957, all the way through the 80s, you just got a lot of science and technology career fields, a lot of inventions.
00:29:00
Speaker
a lot is going on. Then in the 90s we see the National Science Education Standards and the National Council of Teachers and Mathematics and they gave teachers standards and guidelines to help shape curriculum in K through 12 and better prepare students in STEM. So we've got all these jobs out in the career field and then in the 90s they start helping teachers in the classroom give them more guidelines.
00:29:25
Speaker
This was also one of the first signs that the acronym was used to define the topic of STEM. The National Science Foundation originally called it SMET, but then they came to STEM in 2001, which I didn't know that. I was researching. I was like, I think there's an opportunity there. I feel like we should have kept it SMET.
00:29:44
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's funny. Yeah, so in 2001, we got STEM. Also in the early 2000s, several published reports showed that American students' performance in STEM was trailing behind other countries. So in 2009, President Obama announced the Educate to Innovate initiative, and the goal of that initiative was to move U.S. students to the top of the pack in science and math achievement over the next 10 years.
00:30:11
Speaker
But STEM education is more than taking individual science, technology, engineering, and math courses. It's not just like checking those boxes, okay, I took a science class, I took a math class. It's more the STEM education movement advocates for moving away from those segmented content areas, and it goes to emphasizing technology to connect all the subjects and relating teaching to the outside world.
00:30:38
Speaker
STEM impresses 21st century skills acquisitions so that students gain proficiency in collaboration, questioning, problem solving, and critical thinking. Taking more math and science classes in isolation isn't necessarily helpful for gains in innovation. They need all of those things to work together.
00:30:57
Speaker
So then recently, and I say that like it's in the past 15 years, which is recent for me because I'm old. But I can remember this happening when I was like in my college classes, there's been a movement that the A in STEM so to get the arts in there.
00:31:13
Speaker
This feels like a no-brainer to me. Like, why wouldn't we have that as a part of STEM? But I found this really good quote from Dr. Kristin Cook, and she's a longtime science educator. And she says, incorporating the A in STEAM, art, brings in personal expression, empathy, meaning making, and the purpose of what you're learning.
00:31:36
Speaker
It's the humanizing piece of transdisciplinary and interdisciplinary instruction, which I think makes so much sense. You know, you have, you have like what people, you know, you've got your stem, like what people in their main have as science, technology, math, and engineering, and then you add this arts component and you just get the humanizing piece, the part that makes it connect to other people.
00:32:00
Speaker
So the STEAM movement is not an attempt to take away from STEM or its subject areas, like adding the arts is not taking away from anything else that STEM has been doing. But instead, the idea is to enhance the framework by invoking a greater sense of creativity. And I honestly can't see how you can have one without the other.
00:32:24
Speaker
So that was like just a brain dump of the history of STEM. I love wildly fascinating. Yeah, that's so interesting. And thinking about in particular, this idea, I mean, clearly, you know, we're based in the United States, but thinking about STEM and that very American centric identity that is part of that is wildly fascinating. And actually, John and I have talked about it on the podcast before, I think, but
00:32:51
Speaker
There's this clip of President Obama, and he didn't mean to, but I suppose with this STEM movement, it came naturally. And he kind of takes a dig at art history, saying that someone
00:33:07
Speaker
who gets maybe a technical two-year degree would be making more than a person in art history. And then he's like, no, no, no, I don't mean that art history is bad, but like here in lies the issue that we're talking about today. So it's funny that you bring up this idea and this kind of like policy movement when I always kind of have that clip playing in the back of my mind. But as a follow-up, I want to hear from an educator what the benefits of STEM are.
00:33:36
Speaker
This might seem like a silly question since I think that all of us here are in favor of, you know, believing in science and see the importance of a well-rounded education. But for example, like engineering, do we really cover engineering in education before college? Gianna and I went to like very heavy engineering schools. I think that's part, you know, part of our issue as well is that we on our side as well are seeing this kind of disconnect. And how are these kind of broad sections of the sciences used
00:34:05
Speaker
and viewed in your field. So i.e. like are they viewed as essential and then where does that come into play with the arts and other things that might not be viewed as quote unquote essential.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yeah, so short answer. Yes, we do talk about the foundations of engineering as early as kindergarten. So one of our in our STEM class, one of the standards for kindergarten is how does a building's design support its purpose?
00:34:36
Speaker
so they have like we're talking about they might do like if we're talking about a greenhouse how does the design of that greenhouse support the purpose of it as opposed to like the design of like a house that you live in and so while we're not getting into like the specifics of
00:34:51
Speaker
how the structure is built? Is it going to be safe? Is it going to keep standing in a tornado? All of those things, but I start with those foundation principles of how does my design support its purpose? So yeah, it starts really young and we lay those foundations really early.
00:35:07
Speaker
So if the definition of engineering is the branch of science and technology concerned with the design, building and use of engines, machines and structures, then I have to have a foundation for that. I need to start somewhere. What is the purpose of the building I want to make? How can I design it to support that purpose? You know, you have to start somewhere and then I'm going to move on to the bigger concepts later.
00:35:29
Speaker
Now, your question about are they essential in elementary school, especially, I think that's really gonna depend on who you ask. In Oklahoma and in many other states, we have a law that states if a student isn't proficient, isn't a proficient reader by the end of third grade, that they should be retained. That's pretty common across the US. I don't know exactly how many states have that law, but we do have that one. And there are caveats, like we have some ways that we don't have to retain every student for that.
00:35:59
Speaker
But when teachers and building administrators have that pressure that says they have to read by the time that they you know leave third grade they They're gonna focus on reading like they're not gonna put a lot of their emphasis on Science and technology and math now. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. Like yes, we need students to be able to read 100% but I think that
00:36:29
Speaker
you know, a really good teacher is going to bring in all of those science, technology, engineering into your reading curriculum. So I can read about science. I can read about those engineering concepts. I can read, you know, those math problems. So they kind of
00:36:49
Speaker
we can kind of put it all together. So I think that they are essential, but there's a lot of pressure on teachers to just say, we're just going to teach reading. And I don't blame them, to be honest.
00:37:01
Speaker
So it's very hard for an elementary teacher to find time in their day to just focus on science or social aids or technology, but really great teachers incorporate those texts into their reading lessons. And a big part of my team's job is to show how to incorporate technology in a meaningful way so that students are still learning how to read, but also how to be engineers even in kindergarten. It's really challenging and I love it.
00:37:27
Speaker
So we haven't even really touched on STEAM yet, like that's all about STEM. So in our district, we have a dedicated STEM class, and then we also have an art class. And I really like that they're separate in the lower grades. Students have a science class, they have a math class, and they are going to learn the concepts of science, like the foundational concepts of science, and then they'll learn the foundational concepts of math.
00:37:51
Speaker
And then STEM is where they can bring all of those concepts together with an engineering and technology and project-based learning. They can learn the foundations, even like in their art class, and then they can pull that all together with critical thinking and problem solving in their STEM class. So when we're talking about their STEM class, it's really like looking at all of those things through a STEM lens, not necessarily teaching
00:38:20
Speaker
science, technology, engineering, math, and isolation. So does the A belong in STEM? Absolutely it does because I have to have that creativity in there. So when we're talking about when they're in their STEM class and they were doing project-based learning and I want them to show me what they're learning, the art, the foundation pieces they've learned in the art class, they can bring that into their STEM class and they can
00:38:49
Speaker
you know, better create a project or a more appealing project to the masses. Because part of what we talk about in our, when I train teachers is that students are going to be more likely to create something that has more value if they're creating it for a wider audience rather than just for their teacher. And so that art piece, if they can create something that's a little more visually appealing, then a wider audience is going to be more likely to
00:39:16
Speaker
be engaged in their project, if that makes sense. So yeah, art is woven into everything that we do. So I think that it absolutely belongs in STEM. It should be STEAM. Like, I don't know why they're separated at all. This is super interesting, even the way you're talking about
00:39:41
Speaker
Even though you're bringing in these concepts and weaving them together in different ways, it's still interesting that they are separated to bring in those foundations, and I definitely see the point in doing so. Obviously, we need those foundations to build upon them like you were talking about and then weave them together, but it's still interesting to me that
00:40:04
Speaker
the arts is that kind of separate thing that is then applied to other things instead of weaving them together at the ground level. So that's just something, I don't know, interesting that you're touching on. Not that it's a bad thing and I completely understand how it works in terms of, you know, I'm not an educator, how it works in terms of teaching little ones, but it's just super interesting that even at the outset there is this kind of
00:40:31
Speaker
other thing that is then applied to something else. For sure. And so what I think we need to remember about STEM and STEAM, and I almost don't even want to say STEM anymore. I just want to say STEAM. That's all I want to talk about it with. But what I think we need to remember is that someone, and I don't blame them for people who are not in education, but it's not just
00:40:57
Speaker
I'm going to take a technology class, a math class, an engineering class, and a science class. I'm not going to just check out those four boxes. As an educator, I am going to teach through the lens of those things, meaning I've got collaboration and critical thinking. So when I add
00:41:16
Speaker
the arts in there. I think that when people look at that on the base level, it's like, well, why would you combine all of the arts into one a like that is not doing it justice at all.
00:41:31
Speaker
But what it does is that it adds in creativity and innovation. So instead of thinking of the arts as all these separate pieces combined, what we should be thinking of it as is I'm going to now teach through a lens of creativity and innovation.
00:41:50
Speaker
That's a really helpful way to look at it. Yeah, because all of the arts are different. They're important in their own ways. And I think that that is why it's important to have a separate class of like, okay, I have this art class in elementary. And as I grow in my
00:42:07
Speaker
you know later grades i can go into photography and ceramics and printmaking and drawing and i have all the different kinds of art classes i'm gonna learn the foundations of those and then when i come to any other class because it doesn't just have to be a stem class we do have that in elementary but
00:42:23
Speaker
any class that uses the teacher has a steam mindset, then she is teaching through that lens of creativity and innovation. And then students are just, it just, I feel like it just gives them the freedom to use the other side of their brain, right? Like they're not like locked into this
00:42:46
Speaker
Not that all science and math and technology people are just like the type A black and white people, but sometimes. And so when I teach that STEAM lens, I feel like it just gives permission for students to have fun and incorporate creativity and innovation. I don't know how many times I'm going to say that. And as you said earlier, it works both ways.
00:43:07
Speaker
too. Sorry, Gianna. It works both ways in that, Gianna, you could probably speak to this more than I could as an actual practicing artist, but bringing in like math is so important to like printmaking or just putting something and gridding something. I mean, Gianna, you can talk more. You make sculptures, so having that engineering background as well, like building structures, that's what you do.
00:43:31
Speaker
Well, and I just to go back to almost your original definition, when we first started getting into it, I like the mindset that arts and culture bring to the table, because it makes other subjects more applicable to lived experiences and just realities. I see so many jokes on the internet, like I just saw one today that was
00:43:53
Speaker
a lovely day of not needing to know algebra. It's just some guy at the beach, you know? And I think it gives that tangible future experience and humanizes the learning condition of why all these things are such a melting pot of just how our world works. So I really like that you kind of brought that into
00:44:20
Speaker
the using that common language of steam as a definition and like why it's just a melting pot of ideas.
00:44:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, and even when we're talking about those upper level math courses, people ask us all the time, like, why do I need to know trigonometry and algebra two? And I think the answer to that is most people don't need to know that, but the skill of problem solving that you learn in that class and like, depending on how your teacher teaches it, like using different strategies, I think the goal of that teacher is to get you to apply that to other things. Same thing with STEAM.
00:44:56
Speaker
I still think about with math and that's my biggest thing with sculpture and framing and print is fractions and using a ruler. Like it is my biggest, like that is my biggest math concept that I
00:45:13
Speaker
I have to know. And every time I'm framing or matting something, I'm like, here we go. Get my ruler out, use my fractions. Yes, exactly. Well, I'm looking, so I have this sentence in my notes and I just, I really like it. So I said, to be successful and innovative in a career that you choose.
00:45:36
Speaker
You can't leave the art out because if you do, it's just going to be functional. Whatever you are creating would be functional and it would stop at that. It wouldn't be innovative. So if I'm thinking about like designing a building or like, you know,
00:45:51
Speaker
I'm using this example of your art, Gianna, but that is going to be innovative no matter what, because of what you're doing. But if I'm designing a building and I leave all of the artistic and creativity out of it, it's going to be a box. And it would be functional, and I could be in it, and I could have a door or windows, but the art and the creativity is what makes it innovative. Well, that example, Adrienne, I thought was so good too, because when you talk about
00:46:19
Speaker
architecture and design.
00:46:22
Speaker
people have a more concrete understanding of the entire job and working force that comes into infrastructure, design, the laborer and the engineer and the architect of it all, and how we don't have that understanding of the art world and how those different jobs circulate. And for example, our dad was in construction. He was very much that type of laborer, that worker, a craftsman.
00:46:50
Speaker
But Bianca has a good friend who is an architect. And so much of what perhaps she does, and maybe Bianca, obviously you could speak better to this, but even friends I've had in architecture, they have to have a basic understanding of how, you know, basic infrastructure and how things are made. But they're focused on the design of it and an engineer is going to come in and they're going to tell you how to build it.
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah, I just have to bring up Adolf Luce for all of my like art history theory people, because, Adrian what you're talking about, the bare essence of something coming down to functionality is something that we actually talk about
00:47:34
Speaker
with art historical theory and this man, Adolf Luce, who stripped art and design and decoration down to its bare minimum. So basically he didn't believe in decoration. But at that base level, because of functionality and materiality, we talk about this bank in Vienna
00:47:59
Speaker
and Adolf Luce only wanted this to be, or use this as an example of structure. But we talk about it in art history because it is actually a beautiful building and it's the materiality, it's the structure of the marble that actually gives the bank this phenomenal exterior.
00:48:22
Speaker
stripping something down to its bare bones, if you're only coming at it from a functional perspective in art history, we still talk about these things, these functional bare bones items or objects as works of art because they inevitably
00:48:38
Speaker
have something to them that is creative. What you're telling me is that we can't take the A out of steam. And you can't take the steam or stem out of the arts. Yeah. It works both ways. They have to be together. Right. Right. Yes. Always. They are always working together. Oh my goodness. Wow. This was going to be a great episode and it's only going to get better.
00:49:05
Speaker
I talked to Adrienne about this next question a little bit the other day before we kind of gotten to the thick of it.
Access and Barriers in Arts Education
00:49:13
Speaker
So this conversation got me going down a little bit of a rabbit hole, thinking about my own experiences in a public school in early education.
00:49:24
Speaker
and taking this concept of STEM and STEAM that establishes itself so early on as we've already been talking about. So not only do we need to make STEM more accessible and have that more clearly integrated within the arts, we're talking about this whole aspect of separating the two as well. And this is where we see that consequence and that pattern of arts and culture only being offered to students at an early age who
00:49:53
Speaker
one, go to a school that provides this kind of extra art programming, or two, are placed by their school into these extra curricular classes. And that's just the terminology that I'm using, Adrienne. If there's better language that we need to be using, I'm sure that you'll share that with us. But I'd like to hear Adrienne's knowledge of how kids get placed into these types of classes and maybe how it's
00:50:21
Speaker
change or evolve over the years and then generally go into a larger conversation about the structure and accessibility. Perhaps in public education, I mean, we can talk about private education and art schools and how kids get into that. There's a lot to this question and I know that we can only cover so much.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah, Gianna, this is a really good question and there's a lot to it. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do the best I can. Yeah, of course. So first, how are students qualified for gifted? Most states have some sort of requirement that all students need to be screened for giftedness. So in my school district, we start in second grade and that's because really before the age of eight, your IQ is pretty flexible. And then at the age of eight,
00:51:09
Speaker
You know, it can change a little bit, but usually it's, it's pretty set. You know, you can still learn things. Obviously we're going to be lifelong learners, but as we're talking about IQ, it's pretty, we're pretty set at the age of eight. So we give a screener to all second, fourth, and sixth graders, and we give the COGAT, which is a cognitive abilities test. Individual students can qualify in a number of different ways at any time in their educational career, but this screener is basically a catch-all for students in those three grades.
00:51:39
Speaker
So then based on the scores of that test and other factors, because we never want to make any educational decision on one test score, like their classroom performance and teacher recommendations, we can qualify students as gifted. And I'm doing like air quotes, because there's a lot of ways that students can be gifted. And we do have opportunities for that.
00:52:03
Speaker
we have so many students we've got to have a way just to have a basic screener. So as students get older we do also have ways to qualify for gifted based on leadership skills and fine arts like they can submit a portfolio of their artwork they can do musical performances things like that.
00:52:20
Speaker
So some schools choose to serve students through a pull-out program like what you were describing, Gianna. So usually once a week, students go into a separate class for an hour or so, and they do some sort of project-based learning, or dive deeper into a subject that's not usually taught in your core subjects, reading math, science, or social studies.
00:52:38
Speaker
And like, doesn't that sound awesome? Just to leave your class for a week and just go do something? Except for the kid like me who wasn't in gifted and felt bad because I thought I liked art and these people were doing cool things and I wasn't. And I was like, what the muck? Now I'm an art historian asshole. Why didn't you pull me out of my backpack?
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah. So while the students are gone, oh, by the way, I was not in a gifted class either. Neither of us were. Yeah, it's fine. I think I did all right, though. And so while those students are gone, the other students in the regular ed classroom, sometimes they'll like review previously taught concepts or the teacher might use this time for intervention for students who are struggling. And I have a lot of issues with pull out programs like
00:53:28
Speaker
for a lot of the reasons you just said. And so like, yeah, first of all, just because I'm not gifted doesn't mean I'm not struggling. So like the teachers using that time to work with struggling students, but I'm gifted, so I'm pulled out in this program, but I could like, maybe I'm gifted in math, but like I'm struggling in reading and I miss that time. I have a huge beef with this and what you just described.
00:53:54
Speaker
is you're gonna pull out those other kids to do gifted art and culture classes, so supposedly as you're describing, the kids who are not going to that extra class are staying in their classroom and they're focusing on those skills that they're struggling with, right?
00:54:11
Speaker
That is totally not what my experience was. You know what, what we did, the only thing I remember doing other than like literally maybe having nap time, just having quiet time was that we would read a book together.
00:54:30
Speaker
we would read a group book together. And why I have such a struggle with this, and part of the reason why I wanted to share this question today was because I, and I've talked about this before, I very, very much struggled with school. I do have a learning, enable it, disability, whatever you want to call it, I am a dyslexic person. And it took me a very long time in my education to discover
00:54:55
Speaker
that I have dyslexia. So with that just came other struggles with learning and being a struggling student, I had to do a different program and it was an online program and this was called Success Maker, right? So with this online intervention program, do you know when I could have worked on that? I could have worked on that program while the class wasn't in session, right? I could have done it while the other kids were gifted and talented, right? That is not when I did it.
00:55:25
Speaker
I was told to do it while my teacher was teaching all of the other students and like learning together. So you know what I did with Success Maker? I would run through and I would click all of the buttons and all of the answers and I would not read the prompts and do what I and learn how I was supposed to learn through the program because I was so scared that I was
00:55:47
Speaker
Missing out on these other things happening and so I had to do success maker till I was in fifth grade and it's just because I I Click through all the buttons and like to this day. I don't even know that's probably the first time I've even said that out loud like and I never told any of my teachers they were like your your daughter is just failing all these courses and
00:56:10
Speaker
But like literally I did not do them because I wanted to be with everybody else. So like this whole separating and pull out program and these other like online teaching tools, like there's such a clear gap that I am, that was my experience.
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah, Gianna, first of all, I love you. And I wish I could hug you right now. Some good trauma for you guys. You're welcome. I'm so sorry that you had that experience. And that right there is why I feel like pullout programs are really detrimental. But on the flip side, what we hear a lot, because my school district does not do a pullout program. And so I'll tell you how that works in a bit.
00:56:52
Speaker
what the complaints that we get without having a pullout program is on the opposite side where they're like, my kid is gifted and they need to be with other gifted kids. And that I'm gonna get to that in a second. Guys, like
00:57:07
Speaker
No, no. Like there's so many things wrong with that. But like, so here's another thing. Why are all kids exposed to project based learning and extras? Like, isn't that good for all kids? What's good for one subset of kids is usually good for all kids. Like when we talk about English language learners, the techniques and strategies that we use to teach English language learners are good for all English learners. Like anybody who speaks English.
00:57:37
Speaker
So what's good for gifted students is good for all students if we want to push them to that higher level. Well it also creates this issue and the other aspect of it is that like arts is a privilege. Like you can only have access to it and you can only do these things if you accomplish other things. And that does not fit the goal of what STEM should be as what you describe, what STEAM should be, this melting pot and how they all come together.
00:58:03
Speaker
It's also that foundation that I think has problematically served this perception that we have of the arts, that it's unattainable. We have this datekeeping, and that starts very much in early education. Yeah. To insert right here, if you're interested in arts and early development, this is a plug for our Could Your Kid Do That episode, which we can link as well, where we talk about that inaccessibility and this idea that
00:58:33
Speaker
Art is not for your kid because your kid can or cannot draw.
00:58:37
Speaker
There's an educational researcher named John Hattie, and he's best known for his work in measuring the effect size of things that influence student learning. And he found that teacher estimates of achievement has the largest effect size of the 256 influences that he studied. So basically what that means is the teacher's belief about the student being able to achieve something has the greatest impact on student learning.
00:59:06
Speaker
So when you have students that say, you go over here, you go over here, that is like, without saying it, saying like, I think you can do more, I think you can do less. And that's a huge problem because the greatest influence on student learning is what the teacher thinks the student is capable of, which I think is crazy. And it makes a lot of sense too, because if I said,
00:59:29
Speaker
you can't do this, you're going to live up to it and not do it. Or if I said, you are absolutely capable of this and there's more things that go into that, right? Like I have to make all of these educational decisions that support my belief that students can do this, but that's basically what it is. So when we have students together and we give all students the opportunity to do these project-based learning
00:59:56
Speaker
things that we would normally give to just our gifted students, it brings everybody up. And some students are maybe not going to meet that demand to the same level that a student who is identified as gifted will, but that's okay. They had the opportunity and they were exposed to it. And then there are also a lot of gifted students who just don't care.
01:00:25
Speaker
And they don't want to go and do that, the, all the extra and above and beyond. And when they're put in with students who really care and want to try, like it helps everybody. So, you know, but I think, I think that everybody benefits. I know that everybody benefits from that. So going off of that and these kinds of extracurricular ideas that we've been tossing around in this idea of.
01:00:50
Speaker
Separating the arts and kind of putting them into different categories. I would like to talk about electives and Giana this question that you had earlier really focused on Education at an early age and in those elementary years it seems like
01:01:06
Speaker
many of those elective courses that we are required to take in middle school and high school are categorized under the big, big umbrella of the arts. So why is it that while, particularly in high school, there are these kind of different options as to which science or math class you can take. So you could take like AP calculus or algebra, but you still have to take a math.
01:01:32
Speaker
But with an elective, you have to pick which arts lane you're interested in. And it's required to be to take elective, to take an elective, but it's not required in the same way that it is with that kind of math example. Like you don't get an art class and you can take ceramics or drawing. So kind of simplified, how come the arts are viewed as elective courses in higher ed? And does this continually add to that
01:01:58
Speaker
issue of a separation and one being viewed as more important than the other. And then all of, you know, everybody says, Oh, that's a blow off class. How do we stop perpetuating this idea that those electives are blow off classes when they are more often than not categorized under the arts umbrella?
01:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, this is a really hard question to answer. So I don't have a definitive, this is the answer to your question, but I have a couple of ideas. We never have definitive answers on our pop talk. I think the reason this is hard to answer is because a lot of education is left up to state control. And so I can tell you a lot about how Oklahoma operates, but we don't have a lot of federal guidelines for how
01:02:47
Speaker
education should be in pre-k through 12. We have some general ones, but anyways. So one, this is my first maybe guess at it. The core subjects, math, English, social studies, and science are core because when our modern education system was created, those subjects would churn out the most confident individuals with the foundational knowledge to be productive citizens.
01:03:12
Speaker
especially when we moved into the Industrial Revolution and out of a majority of agricultural jobs. So like that's what they focused on because okay with these things you can go out and you can be productive. So I was doing some research on this question and I found a really hard time or it was really hard to find a timeline of electives like when that um where they were kind of brought in on top of those four core subjects.
01:03:38
Speaker
But my best guess is that they just continue to expand all the way up until we introduce No Child Left Behind, which was education law that was passed in 2001. And that law said that schools could not receive federal funding unless they participated and scored at a certain level, like in standardized tests.
01:04:00
Speaker
So with those requirements, schools put most of their effort into meeting and maintaining those scores. And they didn't really have a choice to focus on anything but those tested subjects because that's where they got their funding from. And then in turn, they spent a lot of that money that they got on high quality teachers in those core subjects because those higher test scores meant continued funding. It's a vicious, vicious cycle.
01:04:24
Speaker
So then in 2015, the Every Child Succeeds Act replaced No Child Left Behind. And while it still requires accountability, it gives more control to states on how to hold schools accountable. So this is a step in the right direction, but I also have a lot of thoughts about standardized testing, and that's going to have to wait for another episode because I could talk for days about that.
01:04:46
Speaker
But, you know, I think it's it's basically, you know, those are not those are required because it's tied to funding and test scores. And that's a terrible answer. So then my other thought on this is, in general, we know that education is underfunded. And the first thing to go when we have budget cuts are the extras or the subjects that aren't tested. And I hate that, like, banned
01:05:16
Speaker
and art and all of those extra things I say extras I'm using it right now but I hate that they're considered extras because we saw in the pandemic especially um that that's why kids come to school you know like you have to do math and science and reading but like the reason that kids are invested in what they do
01:05:36
Speaker
is all the extras and I have like air quotes but like all of those things I mean Josh is my husband right he's a band teacher and I just see and I was in band too you guys are in band like that was the reason I showed up I mean I loved school I obviously became a teacher and I continued to go to school every single day of my life but like you know that's where I made all those connections so
01:06:01
Speaker
But as far as being blow-off classes, I think that those teachers just understand how much pressure students are under. I think that they, you know, it's not that they think that their subject isn't important, but they want to give students a place to feel relaxed and to be creative without the pressure that comes with standardized testing.
01:06:23
Speaker
So sure, they're students that just don't care, but I think it's because they haven't found their passion, not because the teacher isn't treating the subject like it doesn't matter. And I think a great example of this now, obviously, there's exceptions to the rule everywhere. But I think in general, like, this is how most of our elective teachers think.
01:06:41
Speaker
So a great example of this is so we know we just said Josh teaches band and last year when his school is going back and forth between full virtual and a B and in person. He had a student who was very capable but was failing a couple of his classes. So Josh had him come in during band time and helped him with this core classwork.
01:07:02
Speaker
Not because band wasn't important, but because that's what the student needed to pass his classes to graduate and to pass a stupid standardized test, right? So it's not Josh's fault, but there's a lot of pressure on that kid and he wasn't going to be able to focus on music until those priorities were taken care of. So wrong or right, that's the American education system.
01:07:25
Speaker
Great. Oh, God, I have so many thoughts. Yes. My mind is reeling right now. And I'm thinking about gender dynamics in elective courses and thinking about like marriage and family planning that I took as an elective course and then how that compares to something like athletics or how I'm just like, oh, this is why I have so much to say. But you in particular mentioned the pandemic. And first of all, I think
01:07:53
Speaker
We all just want to thank you and thank Josh for all of the work that you've done during the pandemic. You always work hard and all of your teachers work hard in quote unquote normal times, but thank you so much for everything that you've done during the pandemic. So let's talk about that a little bit. What effect has the pandemic had on STEAM in the classroom in particular?
01:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, the pandemic has touched every single part of our lives and this isn't an exception.
Adapting Education Post-Pandemic
01:08:28
Speaker
So I think the biggest thing that we saw was that when we, in March 2020, teachers had two weeks to completely reimagine teaching and they took all of their coursework and they put it online and they did it. Guys, I'm sorry, I'm going to start crying. They just did it and it was the most incredible thing to watch.
01:08:48
Speaker
Holy cow teachers are superheroes and like I was just there as a support like tell me what you need like how can I help you and they're incredible. But what I saw with that like from an educator side was that
01:09:03
Speaker
student engagement is always at the top of their mind. So there was a lot of fear then. We didn't really know a whole lot about coronavirus and like how that was, you know, how was it transmissible? And, you know, when was this like, you know, peak going to hit? And so
01:09:19
Speaker
students had a lot going on and teachers really had to focus and like how can I get students engaged and to focus in this completely new environment and you know kind of forget about what's going on outside and focus on algebra, right? So how how are they going to do that?
01:09:35
Speaker
And so I think right here where we talk about the creative and being innovative, that's what teachers did right here because they had to completely reimagine what they were doing online, which means, you know, like, let's talk about graphic design and like basically like website design. And when you're talking about video, like, yeah, I can put a video up, but
01:09:57
Speaker
They immediately had to become like videographers and producers and figure out how to make their videos more engaging so that their students would pass their classes and continue to learn something. So then on the flip side, you've got students who are also being super innovative because I think we had like
01:10:17
Speaker
a day or a half a day where they're like if you need something from school come get it now and we had to like break them up into so like if they missed that day they didn't have like all their school supplies and things that they normally have at school so
01:10:32
Speaker
Not so much like, you know, the design part but just being innovative and how they're thinking and how they, you know, collaborate with, with other students not being in person it was just, it was really incredible to see that shift and how it happened so quickly and it's still happening you know we most of our students are back in person.
01:10:54
Speaker
We're back five days a week this year, but we still have students who are choosing to be virtual. We still have students who are going to be in quarantine. And so it's just, it's really incredible to watch and see how creative and innovative teachers and students are through everything. So moving forward, I
01:11:14
Speaker
want to talk about how you view STEM and STEAM? And should we actually be productively using these categories and keeping this terminology? Because it seems like also, as you explained earlier, even sometimes the use of just the word
01:11:36
Speaker
STEM or even just the word STEAM isn't really accomplishing what it should be. It's not doing what it was originally created to do. You talked about how it's not just these distinctive categories. It is interdisciplinary learning. But is that happening? And so vocabulary really does matter. So do you have some insights as to any vocabulary that we can or should be using to still encourage interests?
01:12:02
Speaker
in all the sciences, but also while acknowledging those creative paths and artistic roles as we talked about before.
01:12:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like I've said, it's not just four box, like STEM is not just four boxes that you check off. Like I've taught science, I've taught technology, I've taught engineering. That's not what it is. It is teaching those subjects through a lens to foster that critical thinking, problem solving, communication and collaboration. And then if I'm being completely honest, I don't think we should say STEM anymore. I think we just should always say STEAM because
01:12:37
Speaker
We I mean we've had plenty of examples even in this time together, where that creativity and innovation is really hard to separate. And even if I could separate it, why would I want to.
01:12:52
Speaker
So I just think, you know, again, it's not a checkbox of I'm teaching this and this and this. It's I'm teaching these subjects through this lens of critical thinking, problem solving, communication, collaboration, creativity, and innovation. And that takes, I mean, that sounds like an impossible task, but we have incredible teachers doing it every single day. I'll add, I think that this
01:13:19
Speaker
This idea that you've brought to us and our listeners today of that lens, I think that is such an important word that's really opened my mind to even the foundations of STEM and how it works. I think incorporating that word, a steam lens, really just opens up so many more possibilities. And I hope that works both ways too. So for the people who in our TikTok comments, maybe were kind of on the other side or wanted more of that separation to happen between the arts and sciences,
01:13:49
Speaker
I think using a steam lens or creative lens or adding on that word really opens up just the possibilities and breaks down those boxes. So thank you so much for talking with us about that today. I think it's just amazing and so important and I really appreciate it. Yeah, I hope it's helpful to kind of redefine that for people. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's safe to say it is.
01:14:17
Speaker
Very helpful because as we learn and I'm about to ask Adrienne a little fun question here before we end today, I know that I even joke about my lack of participation on TikTok and so often Bianca is the one that's kind of putting her face on our platform, this particular platform.
Engagement and Humor on Social Media
01:14:38
Speaker
And it's truly because I do have a very hard time
01:14:45
Speaker
engaging with people on those platforms. And it's hard because I don't believe in the drama of the internet comment section, but also that's the only way to have conversations on that platform. So
01:14:58
Speaker
It's complex for us because we started this type of media platform and that's how we are supposed to engage with people. But I have to decide and be very conscientious about what conversations I'm willing to have on that platform because I don't always think it is quite frankly worth it all the time. But that's why it's so important that you're here today. But Adrienne, I also know that you recently just joined the world of TikTok.
01:15:22
Speaker
It's a crazy place. And, you know, I know, or maybe I'm wrong to assume, but I would perhaps suggest that you are on Educator TikTok. And if so, how are those guys doing? What teacher memes are we getting right now? And like, with the kiddos being back, like, give us an update. You're going to link Adrian's TikTok because it's just it's so funny. If you love Boy of APT,
01:15:49
Speaker
Jameson's Dean Turner, aka A.P.T. nephew. He makes a great appearance on Adrienne's page. Yeah, guys, okay, I'm quite a bit older than you. I don't know if your listeners know that, but I am an elder millennial on TikTok. That was a rough place to be, girl. I would not love you on TikTok, I'll tell you that much. Those Gen Zers are wild. They are brutal. Okay, no, I love it. Like, I
01:16:19
Speaker
Here's the thing, laughter is definitely a form of self-care and if it starts to be a serious TikTok, I just keep scrolling. I need to be able to laugh, but teachers of TikTok is the best place to be because I firmly believe that nurses and teachers have the best stories ever, but nurses' stories are gross.
01:16:38
Speaker
And teacher stories are hilarious. So like if you ever need a really good laugh, you just need to ask an elementary teacher about kindergarten lunch duty. That is going to be, it's amazing. So I just hope that my content makes people laugh because we all need some humor right now. That's for sure.
01:16:57
Speaker
It makes me glad. I watched the one about Jameson getting ready for the first day of school like 20 times. I love that. Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, I think, you know, in general, like teachers are hopeful, you know, there is, there was so much unknown last August and we know more about what's going on right now. It's not new. We've been teaching in a pandemic for a year now and like
01:17:18
Speaker
Teachers, we all want things back to normal, but they have a few more tools in their belt. So I think that we're going to be okay. They're going to be focusing on relationships. We're going to get these cool. We have these kids coming back to school who haven't been there since March, 2020. And we just need to rebuild that trust and make school a safe place so that kids can focus on learning. Well, we are going to link your TikTok for everyone, but is there anything that you would like to plug and anything else you want our listeners to know?
01:17:48
Speaker
Any good resources for them? We'll link in our resources page for you as well. Yeah. Well, you go follow my photography page. Getting school started is always pretty busy, but here in about a couple weeks, I'm going to spend all my weeknights and weekends doing photography. I love that. That's where I get to be creative and I get to
01:18:13
Speaker
not put work aside and that is my creative outlet. So yeah and I can have some links for you. A lot of the resources that I found on STEAM education and just the great things educators are doing. If you want to learn more about it I will put that in the show notes.
01:18:30
Speaker
Great. Adrienne, thanks so much for being here. We're so excited that you all got to officially meet her, the whole Think Fam now. I hope you guys have a great picture of the kind of wildness that's happening behind the scenes. I love you guys so much. Oh my gosh. We love you. And with that, everybody, you know where to find us, follow us, listen to us, and we will talk to you all next Tuesday.
01:18:58
Speaker
Bye, everyone. Bye. Art Pop Talk's executive producers are me, Bianca Martucci-Vinc. And me, Gianna Martucci-Vinc. Music and sounds are by Josh Turner and photography is by Adrian Turner. And our graphic designer is Sid Hammond.
01:19:32
Speaker
you